Ok so I saw some of what MTV had on today, the scroll, didnt catch the movie.
Of course it was all very compelling but I have a question.
What is this new hate crime legislatiion that they keep mentioning people to support?
What would it do that normal crime legislation wouldnt?
I mean wouldnt legislation do nothing to actually curb the behavior?
If MTV is emphasizing that than to me that makes no sense. Unless there is more to the legislation.
On the other hand, they should be emphazing more grass roots tolerance, anti-discrimination type programs.
I dont see how one law could do anything.
Unless I am just completely confused.

but props to MTV anyways, now if they just showed videos that supported positive messages? yea right


Peace,
Steve
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i like what marinera said in death penalty discussion:

>>When a person is committing the act or planning for the act of murder. They are not even considering the punishment. They are either SURE that they will get away or they aren't thinking about it at all, just on killing.

i don't think laws really change anything. they can influence people but aren't really a solution just a scare tactic mostly.

(((((PEACE)))))
(my black history month stuff, read fire's post)
DENMARK VESEY

An ex-slave of a slave trader, he knew the wickedness of slavery and that man was not meant to slave for man. It got to the point where Vesey couldn't bear to have a white person in his presence. He was very outspoken with his hatred for YT. When slaves bowed to YT in the street, he would rebuke them. When the slaves replied, "But we're slaves," Vesey would reply, "You deserve to be slaves." An infamous quote of Vesey was when he said, "We are free, but the white people here won't let us be so; and the only way is to raise up and fight the whites." One of his plans was to takeover of arsenals, guardhouses, powder magazines and naval stores in Charleston, South Carolina, but, he too, was betrayed by a house negro. Vesey and 5 of his aides were hanged on July 2, 1822.

(my black history month stuff, read fire's post)
DENMARK VESEY

An ex-slave of a slave trader, he knew the wickedness of slavery and that man was not meant to slave for man. It got to the point where Vesey couldn't bear to have a white person in his presence. He was very outspoken with his hatred for YT. When slaves bowed to YT in the street, he would rebuke them. When the slaves replied, "But we're slaves," Vesey would reply, "You deserve to be slaves." An infamous quote of Vesey was when he said, "We are free, but the white people here won't let us be so; and the only way is to raise up and fight the whites." One of his plans was to takeover of arsenals, guardhouses, powder magazines and naval stores in Charleston, South Carolina, but, he too, was betrayed by a house negro. Vesey and 5 of his aides were hanged on July 2, 1822.

I don't think hate crime legislation would change someone's behavior or even make them think twice about doing the act. However, I don't think the legislation is about the perpetrator of the crime. It is about the community at large.

Many people say, "murder is murder" and it's already illegal so what's the point of hate crime legislation to control conduct that is already illegal. My answer to that is that normally if you kill or beat up someone, the action is done solely to that person. But if you do it because the person is gay or black or jewish, etc... than your crime does not just effect that person but it victimizes an entire community and causes lots of people to leave in fear. Thus hate crime legislation sends a message to the victimized community that the legislators care about their safety and comfort and will not tolerate intimidating behavior.

The new hate crime bill will add homosexuals, handicapped, and gender hate crimes. Before they were not under the hate crime umbrella.

Something about hate crime legislation seems shady to me... I'm not sure what it is, but there's SOMETHING.

I guess it's because you begin to probe the intent of the accused, and punish him based on what he was thinking. That seems a bit off to me.

For instance, on the mtv thing, they had several occasions where the crime was against a minority or a gay person, but there was no indication that it was due to their race or sexual orientation. To me, hate crimes legislation is heading into dangerous territory - when the government starts to try and figure out what people are thinking, and judge them on their thoughts. The crime, to me, should be enough on its own...

-thebigfunk

>Something about hate crime legislation seems shady to me... I'm >not sure what it is, but there's SOMETHING.
>I guess it's because you begin to probe the intent of the >accused, and punish him based on what he was thinking. That >seems a bit off to me.

if there are witnesses that can contend that an individual would do such a crime simply because of race/gender/sex. orient./whatever, then why not?

>For instance, on the mtv thing, they had several occasions >where the crime was against a minority or a gay person, but >there was no indication that it was due to their race or sexual >orientation. To me, hate crimes legislation is heading into >dangerous territory - when the government starts to try and >figure out what people are thinking, and judge them on their >thoughts. The crime, to me, should be enough on its own...

what do you think about anti-gay graffiti, for instance? out in one of those midwest states (wyoming, maybe?) there was a billboard that that read "shoot a day or two" referring to a shooting range. the sign was defaced to read "shoot a gay or two." the billboard remained for nearly a month, when finally a nearby resident fixed it because the police did nothing. do you think that should be considered merely defacing property? i don't.

thejester.

hate crime legislation is really important, and extending it to gays, handicapped people, etc..is vital. Like people have been explaining, it's not for the attacker, it's for the people. It draws attention to the issue, makes people take a stand. Hate crimes are guaranteed to bring more publicity and with that comes communication. If people realize how serious the government and communities are taking bigotry against gays, minorities, etc...that will translate into their behavior. Currently gay-bashing is still very socially acceptable, but hate crime legislation, along with other action, can make it more of a stigma. BTW, gay-bashing, even from okayplayer artists, is whack. Like Chris Rock would say, "all y'all at least got an Uncle that's gay." It kills me to see MCs that I respect gettin all homophobic, but as Common would say hehe, who is known for his homophobia "one day it'll all make sense."

"they say you are what you eat, so I strove to eat healthy, my goal in life is not to be rich or wealthy, cuz true wealth comes from good health and wise ways" -Dead Prez

I agree.. I think that although it may not deter many away from the act, it is a step in the right direction. For so long, the government has more or less purposefully ignored the profound and horrific message that accompanies hate crimes such as gay bashing and racial crimes. It has become more than clear that many (if not the majority) of those in power hope to quietly sustain the stereotypes traditionally assigned to gays and blacks etc.. Such stereotypes and hate have been, and will continue to be for a while, characteristic of American society. Yet, in actually setting forth a hate crimes bill which is extended to encompass gender crimes, gay bashing and so on, it is a slight step in the direction of intolerance to hate. Maybe it will work & maybe not, but at least it is a recognition of the problem.

and you guys dont even see it coming....

Soon the ones that were yelling for hate crimes legislation will be the ones yelling for it to end. As I said before, laws are a funny thing. They can work for you and work against you at the same time, without even changing one word. Not only will more African-Americans be tried under hate crime legislation, but also stiffer penalties will be given to people unnecessarily convicted under a hate crime statute. So much for reforming the justice system, eh?

>and you guys dont even see
>it coming....
>
>Soon the ones that were yelling
>for hate crimes legislation will
>be the ones yelling for
>it to end. As
>I said before, laws are
>a funny thing. They
>can work for you and
>work against you at the
>same time, without even changing
>one word. Not only
>will more African-Americans be tried
>under hate crime legislation, but
>also stiffer penalties will be
>given to people unnecessarily convicted
>under a hate crime statute.
> So much for reforming
>the justice system, eh?


yah man, i definately agree with this, it's easy to just pass legislation to say 'oh no.. this is bad', but what does that really do, and if you're opposed to this type of legistlation, you're seen as a bigit, it's a double edged sword, i agree that there needs to be some sort of legistlation to be laid out to protect each one of us, but doesn't it sometimes get a bit carried away?

I can see this happening right now.

k. orr