Do most people belive homosexuality is a sin, and all gay people are going to burn in hell?

My best friend and i have debated this recently and she beleives this. I just have a difficult time accepting that if GOD is LOVE,
this would be the case...

What do you all think?

>Do most people belive homosexuality is
>a sin,

do most people believe that it is a sin?
Most folks aren't religious.

I think a lot of people think it's wrong. But I don't know how many of them are going to impose their will on others to stop them. Do they vote against same sex marriages, do they deny insurance claims, do they beat up people who are believed to be gay?

and all gay
>people are going to burn
>in hell?

>My best friend and i have
>debated this recently and she
>beleives this. I just have
>a difficult time accepting that
>if GOD is LOVE,

Read the Old Testament. God ain't love.

one
k. orr

My friend seems to think gay people can help the way we are. I just don't see how that can be. Who you are is, just that, WHO you are. I am not sure how much of the Bible is man's two cents either!

Hmmmm...

I usually go by the definition of sin as something that can hurt somebody else's life. I don't think homosexuality does that. Does it???


Love and Learn,
Mango

All over in those scriptures you can see where God bestowes hatred upon people.
Besides,.....the very same people who wrote the Bible were gay.
The Romans were freaks, and not to mention, King James had his wife murdered because he insisted she was an evil witch.
It's also rumored that Shakespeare was gay, and he helped King James to "translate" the Bible just so he can "get in good with him."

Where did you read this info?

Hotep

I don't know about Shakespeare trying to get into King James' pants. But I do know for a fact that King James was a known homosexual. Someone collected alot of his letters that he sent out to his lovers and the lovers' replies to him. DEEP.

About Shakespeare if you look at Psalm 42 (or 46?) the 42nd (or 46th?) word from the top is shake and the 42nd (or 46th) word from the bottom is spear. Some scholars say that Shakespeare helped to translate the Psalms and in it he left his name. The number represented the age that he was at the time. I do know for a fact that the Psalms along with the rest of the Bible was translated to fit English poetical verse so it would be more easily read for the English (and more enjoyable.)

Also some people say that Francis Bacon WAS Shakespeare and Bacon was a lord of something in King James' court. In fact he was promoted several times in a relatively short amount of time. Did he DICK his way to the top? Probably so.

PEace
Solarus

"To be perfect is to lack nothing essential to the whole therefore I AM."-
Solarus

"And if I have to dead you, it's only cuz I love you."- Talib Kweli

Hotep

Oh yeah. King James had a council of 54? (the actual people known totals to about 47) scholars who made a REVISION of old English Bibles. So essentially the KJV of the Bible is not a translation but revision of older corrupt version. When seeing the older English works, the KJV is actually pretty extraordinary. But I wouldn't go so far as to say that it is the "infallible word of God."

I know someone who believes that it is the ONLY Bible that should be read and every other version had been tainted by the Devil. He also believes that Homosexuality is a sin. After telling him the current information and about king James sexual orientation, he still believes that KJV is the AUTHORIZED word of God. Talk about DENIAL.

"To be perfect is to lack nothing essential to the whole therefore I AM."- Solarus

"And if I have to dead you, it's only cuz I love you."- Talib Kweli

>About Shakespeare if you look at
>Psalm 42 (or 46?) the
>42nd (or 46th?) word from
>the top is shake and
>the 42nd (or 46th) word
>from the bottom is spear.
> Some scholars say that
>Shakespeare helped to translate the
>Psalms and in it he
>left his name. The
>number represented the age that
>he was at the time.

You expect us to trust you when you couldn't even check the pslms yourself before posting? How much of the information you are spouting is firsthand and how much is simply stuffyou heard and never bothered to question?
Open your mind!!!!!!

"In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is stoned to death"
Joan D. Vinge, 'Psion'

Hotep

I have checked it before. In fact i checked different versions of the bible to see if the passage is the same. And guess what? IT'S NOT!!! I just couldn't remember the numbers exactly. Remembering Bible verse numbers is not exactly on my list of priorities.

Peace
Solarus

"To be perfect is to lack nothing essential to the whole therefore I AM."-Solarus

"And if I have to dead you, it's only cuz I love you."- Talib Kweli

That is All...(c) - Jamal Ya'll

Those two verses do have the words "shake"(verse 3) and "spear"(verse 9), but its not where Solarus says it is. You have to look for them. Personally, I don't see the relevance of it at all. So Shakespeare was a butt pirate, so what? Women weren't the only ones leaving the team.


~Dulce~

(0-0) *four eyes*

----------------- A sig for the New Year --------------------

My 1st ryhme!!!
Okaypeeps, please listen up!

I'm rollin through this joint, to say whassup
Salutations to my people who can't get enough
Of me
Listen my rap and I'm sure to deliver
I come colder than ice, makin' other rappers shiver
Dulce is loose and on the prowl,
Cats hear my rap, confessin'
I'm guarenteed to stick around a while.
Brotha, when I am through with you,
you'll keep comin back,
bringin your best friends too
I'm sarcastic and full of funk,
Knockin other bitches off and puttin they
bodies in my trunk
I'll make you scream and holla for more,
I be the woman you adore
Yo, so tell your chick ...she got to go!
Makin you scream and holla for mo!
Chickens can't match my smooth flo
I'll hit you off and you'll be beggin me to stop
Sexin your man, waitin for my cherry to pop
I don't need to follow you
Or your crew
I'm a leader makin' others come under my rule
So bend ya knees, bow ya head to the queen
Makin sure you never even get close
to Dulce, the Supreme

BOYYYYYYYEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!! *hugging myself*

~Brought to you by Bambozzled Entertainment Television (BET)

>All over in those scriptures you
>can see where God bestowes
>hatred upon people.
>Besides,.....the very same people who wrote
>the Bible were gay.

C'mon man...... where did you get that one from?

>The Romans were freaks,

That like saying all blacks are criminals

>It's also rumored that Shakespeare was
>gay, and he helped King
>James to "translate" the Bible
>just so he can "get
>in good with him."

If that is the case, I think Shakespeare would have left Sodom and Gomorah out of the book...... but I haven't read the King James version.

Peace!!!!!!

BurbKnight- Founder of T.O.P.A.

Houston OkayPlayer Squad:

BurbKnight, Finesse, k_ysla, Solange, PolarBear, chocolateboywonder a.k.a BrotherBear (on and off), ReignStorm, MeganF (on and off), Ms.B, SoulOne, unohoo, pheen, slimpockets, voodoo1, bc, DELTA1393, foxfoto, SupermanFrom281, copperwings, MrBastard, Madame X, sthngrl

////////////////////////////////////////

"Thank you Houston!!!!!!"- Bahamadia at the Austin OKP tour

///////////////////////////////
AIM: BurbKnight

Okayplayer Directory: http://theblackknight.tripod.com/okayplayer/okayplayer.html

>>It's also rumored that Shakespeare was
>>gay, and he helped King
>>James to "translate" the Bible
>>just so he can "get
>>in good with him."
>
>If that is the case, I
>think Shakespeare would have left
>Sodom and Gomorah out of
>the book...... but I haven't
>read the King James version.

Just a comment of this: no claim I have read that states that Shakespeare may have written some of King James version claims he did it all, some of the authors can actually be verified, and Shakespeare is not one of them. Hell, some people believe Shakespeare WAS King James. We also don't know for sure that Shakespeare was homosexual, that claim is mostly made because almost half the Sonnets are man-to-man love poems. But even understanding what that really means is ambigous at best. One thing I have heard is that the translators of the King James version were actually anti-The King and put in explicit anti-gay doctrines just to piss him off, cause they had some vendetta against him. I don't know too much about that though.

n/m

Were not destroyed b/c of sex crimes. They were destroyed for their attitudes...for being inhospitable to God's message/messenger. The sex thing had little to do with it. If God got mad b/c of sex crimes, Rome & Greece never woulda made it. They were some sex freaks.

And David (as in King David) had a gay love affair with Jonathan.

>And David (as in King David)
>had a gay love affair
>with Jonathan.


Where did you get this from???? Stop making stuff up! Read my response with subject "The Facts" below.

1 Samuel 18

1 And it came to pass, when he had made an end of speaking unto Saul, that the soul of
Jonathan was knit with the soul of David, and Jonathan loved him as his own soul.
2 And Saul took him that day, and would let him go no more home to his father's house.
3 Then Jonathan and David made a covenant, because he loved him as his own soul.
4 And Jonathan stripped himself of the robe that was upon him, and gave it to David, and his
garments, even to his sword, and to his bow, and to his girdle.

1 Samuel 20

1 And David fled from Naioth in Ramah, and came and said before Jonathan, What have I
done? what is mine iniquity? and what is my sin before thy father, that he seeketh my life?
2 And he said unto him, God forbid; thou shalt not die: behold, my father will do nothing either
great or small, but that he will shew it me: and why should my father hide this thing from me? it
is not so.
3 And David sware moreover, and said, Thy father certainly knoweth that I have found grace in
thine eyes; and he saith, Let not Jonathan know this, lest he be grieved: but truly as the LORD
liveth, and as thy soul liveth, there is but a step between me and death.
4 Then said Jonathan unto David, Whatsoever thy soul desireth, I will even do it for thee.

16 So Jonathan made a covenant with the house of David, saying, Let the LORD even require it
at the hand of David's enemies.
17 And Jonathan caused David to swear again, because he loved him: for he loved him as he
loved his own soul.

30 Then Saul's anger was kindled against Jonathan, and he said unto him, Thou son of the
perverse rebellious woman, do not I know that thou hast chosen the son of Jesse to thine own
confusion, and unto the confusion of thy mother's nakedness?
31 For as long as the son of Jesse liveth upon the ground, thou shalt not be established, nor thy
kingdom. Wherefore now send and fetch him unto me, for he shall surely die.

42 And Jonathan said to David, Go in peace, forasmuch as we have sworn both of us in the
name of the LORD, saying, The LORD be between me and thee, and between my seed and
thy seed for ever. And he arose and departed: and Jonathan went into the city.

>1 Samuel 18
>
>1 And it came to pass,
>when he had made an
>end of speaking unto Saul,
>that the soul of
> Jonathan
>was knit with the soul
>of David, and Jonathan loved
>him as his own soul.
>
>2 And Saul took him that
>day, and would let him
>go no more home to
>his father's house.
>3 Then Jonathan and David made
>a covenant, because he loved
>him as his own soul.
>
>4 And Jonathan stripped himself of
>the robe that was upon
>him, and gave it to
>David, and his
> garments,
>even to his sword, and
>to his bow, and to
>his girdle.
>
>1 Samuel 20
>
>1 And David fled from Naioth
>in Ramah, and came and
>said before Jonathan, What have
>I
> done?
>what is mine iniquity? and
>what is my sin before
>thy father, that he seeketh
>my life?
>2 And he said unto him,
>God forbid; thou shalt not
>die: behold, my father will
>do nothing either
> great
>or small, but that he
>will shew it me: and
>why should my father hide
>this thing from me? it
>
> is
>not so.
>3 And David sware moreover, and
>said, Thy father certainly knoweth
>that I have found grace
>in
> thine
>eyes; and he saith, Let
>not Jonathan know this, lest
>he be grieved: but truly
>as the LORD
> liveth,
>and as thy soul liveth,
>there is but a step
>between me and death.
>4 Then said Jonathan unto David,
>Whatsoever thy soul desireth, I
>will even do it for
>thee.
>
>16 So Jonathan made a covenant
>with the house of David,
>saying, Let the LORD even
>require it
> at
>the hand of David's enemies.
>
>17 And Jonathan caused David to
>swear again, because he loved
>him: for he loved him
>as he
> loved
>his own soul.
>
>30 Then Saul's anger was kindled
>against Jonathan, and he said
>unto him, Thou son of
>the
> perverse
>rebellious woman, do not I
>know that thou hast chosen
>the son of Jesse to
>thine own
> confusion,
>and unto the confusion of
>thy mother's nakedness?
>31 For as long as the
>son of Jesse liveth upon
>the ground, thou shalt not
>be established, nor thy
> kingdom.
>Wherefore now send and fetch
>him unto me, for he
>shall surely die.
>
>42 And Jonathan said to David,
>Go in peace, forasmuch as
>we have sworn both of
>us in the
> name
>of the LORD, saying, The
>LORD be between me and
>thee, and between my seed
>and
> thy
>seed for ever. And he
>arose and departed: and Jonathan
>went into the city.

Your drunk. How do you get a homosexual relationship from that? Clearly you don't know how to interpret the bible at all. It's common knowledge that the term "knew" is a reference to sex. It does not say that Jonathan "knew" or "came to know" David. It says "Jonathan was knit with the soul of David, and Jonathan loved him as his own soul ". How do you get homosexuality from that? Have you bothered to look how "knit with one's soul" is used in other parts of the bible? What context do they use it in? I am in the process of my writing my response that I mentioned before.

1st. I could care less whether or not John and David really got down.

2nd. It's clear from the text that these 2 had a love relationship. The NIV scripture says that Jonathan's love for David surpasses that of women. How do you interpret that?

Is the idea that D & J were in love threatening to you personally? Why?

When love surpasses the love of a women, I consider that unconditional love like that of God has for people. Love that surpasses a women would be something above sexual or physical love between human beings. I didn't know love between two men were above a women when at the same time the bible is saying that "to lie with mankind" is an abomination. You're really confused. I didn't have time to write my blurb at the bottom, however, what do you think of these texts in the bible concerning homosexuality:

Romans 1:26-27
Leviticus 18:22
I Corinthians 10:13
I Corinthians 6:11
Timothy 1: 10-11

>Romans 1:26-27

Here's a quote from http://www.godlovesfags.com/glf/bible/bible_says.html

Romans 1:26 and 27, according to most Biblical scholars, condemns all gay and lesbian
activity. Paul criticizes sexual activity which is against a person's nature or disposition. But a
minority of scholars interpret the passage differently: in Greek society of the time,
homosexuality and bisexuality was regarded as a natural activity for some people. Thus Paul
might have been criticizing heterosexuals who were engaged in homosexual activities against
their nature. He might not be referring to homosexuals or bisexuals at all.
The verses preceding 26 might indicate that he was referring to sexual acts associated with
idol worship. The verse is too vague to be interpreted as a blanket prohibition of all same-sex
activities.

>Leviticus 18:22

Do you mix milk and meat? If you're gonna throw the Holiness Code at ppl, you gotta throw the whole thing. And Jesus negated it anyway w/his New Commandment that we love one another as he loved us.

>I Corinthians 10:13

Temptation is a bitch. What?

>I Corinthians 6:11

11 And such were some of you: but
ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified
in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our
God.

That has nothing to do w/the topic at hand.

Know
ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom
of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor
idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of
themselves with mankind,

That's the verse you mean, I bet. The word you're tripping over is "effeminate" (I take it) and I've learned that in the original text, the word used referred to those of WEAK FAITH. Somehow that became "effeminate" in the KJV and "homosexual" in the NIV. The Greeks didn't have a word for "homosexual" b/c that term didn't exist until the late 1800s.

>Timothy 1: 10-11

10 For whoremongers, for them
that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for
liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing
that is contrary to sound doctrine; 11 According to the
glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed
to my trust.

Again, b/c there is no word for "homosexual" in the Greek text, I don't know what the KJV translator was getting at.

>>Romans 1:26-27
>
>Here's a quote from http://www.godlovesfags.com/glf/bible/bible_says.html
>
>Romans 1:26 and 27, according to
>most Biblical scholars, condemns all
>gay and lesbian
> activity.
>Paul criticizes sexual activity which
>is against a person's nature
>or disposition. But a
> minority
>of scholars interpret the passage
>differently: in Greek society of
>the time,
> homosexuality
>and bisexuality was regarded as
>a natural activity for some
>people. Thus Paul
> might
>have been criticizing heterosexuals who
>were engaged in homosexual activities
>against
> their
>nature. He might not be
>referring to homosexuals or bisexuals
>at all.
> The
>verses preceding 26 might indicate
>that he was referring to
>sexual acts associated with
> idol
>worship. The verse is too
>vague to be interpreted as
>a blanket prohibition of all
>same-sex
> activities.

You are taking the side of a "minority" of scholars because it serves your purposes. Sexual acts with idol worshipers? C'mon.


>>Leviticus 18:22
>
>Do you mix milk and meat?
> If you're gonna throw
>the Holiness Code at ppl,
>you gotta throw the whole
>thing. And Jesus negated
>it anyway w/his New Commandment
>that we love one another
>as he loved us.

A lot of people think that the whole old testament is negated - wrong. Your claim may have some validity if verses condemning homosexualiy in the new testament were not there. You're saying that homosexuality is OK because the book of Leviticus is mute? There other verses in the New Testament

>>I Corinthians 10:13
>
>Temptation is a bitch. What?

This one is basically saying that homosexuals can be forgiven for their sins if they repent.

>
>>I Corinthians 6:11
>
>11 And such were some of
>you: but
>
>
>
>
>
> ye are washed,
>but ye are sanctified, but
>ye are justified
>
>
>
>
>
> in the name
>of the Lord Jesus, and
>by the Spirit of our
>
>
>
>
>
>
> God.
>
>That has nothing to do w/the
>topic at hand.
>
> Know
>
>
>
>
>
> ye not that
>the unrighteous shall not inherit
>the kingdom
>
>
>
>
>
> of God? Be
>not deceived: neither fornicators, nor
>
>
>
>
>
>
> idolaters, nor adulterers,
>nor effeminate, nor abusers of
>
>
>
>
>
>
> themselves with mankind,
>
>
>That's the verse you mean, I
>bet. The word you're
>tripping over is "effeminate" (I
>take it) and I've learned
>that in the original text,
>the word used referred to
>those of WEAK FAITH.
>Somehow that became "effeminate" in
>the KJV and "homosexual" in
>the NIV. The Greeks
>didn't have a word for
>"homosexual" b/c that term didn't
>exist until the late 1800s.

Yes, I know homosexual is a greek term, but how is effeminate weak faith. I need to see the original hebrew text.

>
>>Timothy 1: 10-11
>
>10 For whoremongers, for them
>
>
>
>
>
> that defile themselves
>with mankind, for menstealers, for
>
>
>
>
>
>
> liars, for perjured
>persons, and if there be
>any other thing
>
>
>
>
>
> that is contrary
>to sound doctrine; 11 According
>to the
>
>
>
>
>
> glorious gospel of
>the blessed God, which was
>committed
>
>
>
>
>
> to my trust.
>
>
>Again, b/c there is no word
>for "homosexual" in the Greek
>text, I don't know what
>the KJV translator was getting
>at.

Believe it or not, I'm actually trying to understand you. You said you prayed ernestly for a year and nothing happened? Hmmm. So you decided to give up on the whole religion thing? No?

I didn't just "give up", I gained a new understanding.

>1 Samuel 18
>
>1 And it came to pass,
>when he had made an
>end of speaking unto Saul,
>that the soul of
> Jonathan
>was knit with the soul
>of David, and Jonathan loved
>him as his own soul.
>
>2 And Saul took him that
>day, and would let him
>go no more home to
>his father's house.
>3 Then Jonathan and David made
>a covenant, because he loved
>him as his own soul.
>
>4 And Jonathan stripped himself of
>the robe that was upon
>him, and gave it to
>David, and his
> garments,
>even to his sword, and
>to his bow, and to
>his girdle.
>
>1 Samuel 20
>
>1 And David fled from Naioth
>in Ramah, and came and
>said before Jonathan, What have
>I
> done?
>what is mine iniquity? and
>what is my sin before
>thy father, that he seeketh
>my life?
>2 And he said unto him,
>God forbid; thou shalt not
>die: behold, my father will
>do nothing either
> great
>or small, but that he
>will shew it me: and
>why should my father hide
>this thing from me? it
>
> is
>not so.
>3 And David sware moreover, and
>said, Thy father certainly knoweth
>that I have found grace
>in
> thine
>eyes; and he saith, Let
>not Jonathan know this, lest
>he be grieved: but truly
>as the LORD
> liveth,
>and as thy soul liveth,
>there is but a step
>between me and death.
>4 Then said Jonathan unto David,
>Whatsoever thy soul desireth, I
>will even do it for
>thee.
>
>16 So Jonathan made a covenant
>with the house of David,
>saying, Let the LORD even
>require it
> at
>the hand of David's enemies.
>
>17 And Jonathan caused David to
>swear again, because he loved
>him: for he loved him
>as he
> loved
>his own soul.
>
>30 Then Saul's anger was kindled
>against Jonathan, and he said
>unto him, Thou son of
>the
> perverse
>rebellious woman, do not I
>know that thou hast chosen
>the son of Jesse to
>thine own
> confusion,
>and unto the confusion of
>thy mother's nakedness?
>31 For as long as the
>son of Jesse liveth upon
>the ground, thou shalt not
>be established, nor thy
> kingdom.
>Wherefore now send and fetch
>him unto me, for he
>shall surely die.
>
>42 And Jonathan said to David,
>Go in peace, forasmuch as
>we have sworn both of
>us in the
> name
>of the LORD, saying, The
>LORD be between me and
>thee, and between my seed
>and
> thy
>seed for ever. And he
>arose and departed: and Jonathan
>went into the city.

Your drunk. How do you get a homosexual relationship from that? Clearly you don't know how to interpret the bible at all. It's common knowledge that the term "knew" is a reference to sex. It does not say that Jonathan "knew" or "came to know" David. It says "Jonathan was knit with the soul of David, and Jonathan loved him as his own soul ". How do you get homosexuality from that? Have you bothered to look how "knit with one's soul" is used in other parts of the bible? What context do they use it in? I am in the process of my writing my response that I mentioned before.

>And David (as in King David)
>had a gay love affair
>with Jonathan.


Where did you get this from???? Stop making stuff up! Read my response with subject "The Facts" below.

>Were not destroyed b/c of sex
>crimes. They were destroyed
>for their attitudes...for being inhospitable
>to God's message/messenger. The
>sex thing had little to
>do with it. If
>God got mad b/c of
>sex crimes, Rome & Greece
>never woulda made it.
>They were some sex freaks.
>

I beg to differ HT. Gods message WAS agaist sex crimes. Rome and Greece were ALLOWED to exist. There existence was not a divine endorsement any more than the Third Riech was.

That doesn't detract from my earlier point, that Sodom and Gomorrah were not destroyed b/c of any "sex crimes" that were going on there.

This isn't my argument to be in, but, HotThyng is correct in his description of why Sodom & Gomorrah were destroyed. The populous of the city rejected the angelic beings/messengers and for that, they faced destruction. If sex or morality were the issue, why was it acceptable for Lot to offer up his virgin daughters unsuervised to a mob of men (previously described as wicked) to do whatever they wanted to with them? Where is the morality in that?

Thanks for reading. I love you.

"What are you but my reflection, who am I to judge or strike you down?" - MJK

In Rotation:
Organized Konfusion - OK
Fiona Apple - When The Pawn
Jimmy Smith - Root Down
OutKast - Stankonia
Tool - Salival
Slum Village - Fantastic Vol II

I had totally forgotten that part.

>All over in those scriptures you
>can see where God bestowes
>hatred upon people.

Hatred? or tough love?

Peace!!!!!!

BurbKnight- Founder of T.O.P.A.

Houston OkayPlayer Squad:

BurbKnight, Finesse, k_ysla, Solange, PolarBear, chocolateboywonder a.k.a BrotherBear (on and off), ReignStorm, MeganF (on and off), Ms.B, SoulOne, unohoo, pheen, slimpockets, voodoo1, bc, DELTA1393, foxfoto, SupermanFrom281, copperwings, MrBastard, Madame X, sthngrl

////////////////////////////////////////

"Thank you Houston!!!!!!"- Bahamadia at the Austin OKP tour

///////////////////////////////
AIM: BurbKnight

Okayplayer Directory: http://theblackknight.tripod.com/okayplayer/okayplayer.html

tough love....

wut da phuck is that supposed to mean?

Like knocking you byetch cross the head with an iron to sho yo affection? Like tellin your dauter you love her before bruisin her bootay with throned switches.

Gimme a phuckin break-beat, nicca.


25percenter

>Like knocking you byetch cross the
>head with an iron to
>sho yo affection? Like
>tellin your dauter you love
>her before bruisin her bootay
>with throned switches.

It's funny how folks like to throw that ish out of proportion.

I have said all I have to say here..... don't need to say no more.

Peace!!!!!!

BurbKnight- Founder of T.O.P.A.

Houston OkayPlayer Squad:

BurbKnight, Finesse, k_ysla, Solange, PolarBear, chocolateboywonder a.k.a BrotherBear (on and off), ReignStorm, MeganF (on and off), Ms.B, SoulOne, unohoo, pheen, slimpockets, voodoo1, bc, DELTA1393, foxfoto, SupermanFrom281, copperwings, MrBastard, Madame X, sthngrl

////////////////////////////////////////

"Thank you Houston!!!!!!"- Bahamadia at the Austin OKP tour

///////////////////////////////
AIM: BurbKnight

Okayplayer Directory: http://theblackknight.tripod.com/okayplayer/okayplayer.html

....justice. That is another one of Gods qualities. Everyone excecuted by God was served justice.
"The wages sin pays is death."

the people who rewrote the bible were gay. the people who wrote it were mostly slaves or prisoners of the romans who didnt believe in what christ was saying until he was reserected.or thats the way i understood it t be anyway.

I don't believe in or pactice any form of religion, therefore I don't believe in sin, heaven, or hell...so gay or straight doesn't apply or have any effect on your fate to me.



Wars begin with closed minds.-RA

Don't be concerned about mine, handle your own.-RA

When I attack there ain't a army that could strike back....-Nas

There are so many issues wrapped up in your post and the responses so far and there's no way to do them all justice.

I start with issues like these is by trying to have an understanding of the person who is propounding a view that embodies hatred. I don't think people come to hatred in a vacuum. I understand that things that are different are frightening, but I also notice that people who have a broader world view, whether through education, or travel, or innate open mindedness, have a greater ability to distinguish "different" from "wrong."

I also understand that religious, theological, and spiritual issues are, by their nature, beyond our explicit understanding and the uncertainty borne of not being able to understand something quickly and completely is in itself frightening.

So I know that many people turn to simplistic religions in order to feel as though they have a hold on some answers. And even religions that are rich in theology and have truly great thinkers among their theologians can't expect the average person to understand the metaphors or grasp the subtleties.

So to me, the bottom line is that there's a fear and suspicion of people who are different from us -- because if they're NOT like me and are NOT going to hell, does that mean that people LIKE me ARE going to hell? See what I mean? People have a deep seated need to be right (I do, don't you?).

But if we believe that we are created beings, and that God created us, where do we get off telling God that his creation is wrong? But I know that this argument doesn't go anywhere with most people, because if they really believe that something (anything) is a sin they'll say it's not God's creation but man's free will. So that means that homosexuality MUST be a choice, in their minds.

I've had many arguments on these boards about whether homosexuality is a choice and I've learned that some people can change their minds about this but they have to have an open mind to start with.

But when you're discussing this with your friend, there are a couple of ways of approaching the question that might get them thinking.

One thing is this: If homosexuality is a choice, then anyone can choose it. Most people who believe that homosexuality is a choice also vilify homosexuals, so if you suggest that they too could choose homosexuality, they'll vehemently deny it. So then you say, well, if you can't choose YOUR sexuality, why do you think homosexuals can?

Another thing is this: I've heard many homosexuals say that if they HAD a choice, they would choose to be heterosexual because who would willingly sign up for the kind of abuse that homosexuals receive? So you can pose that question.

But you see, all of this discussion requires that the person with whom you're discussing the issue have the possibility of seeing other points of view. And to the extent that their religion and thus their world view requires that they accept without question the word of whoever it is that's telling them that homosexuality is bad, then you're fighting a losing battle.

On the Bible translation issue and the Old Testament vs. New Testament issue, a couple of thoughts.

I prefer the Jerusalem Bible because it is a relatively recent translation that was done from original sources and the team of people working on it was unparalleled. I find it the clearest and most beautiful translation. And it's also about as accurate a translation that you'll find. I started a master's in theology at one point (gave it up along the way) and all of the professors that I knew then would lecture with two books open in front of them -- the Bible text that they were teaching in the original language and the Jerusalem Bible.

Old Testament vs. New Testament. Think of the Old Testament (if you're thinking of it from the Christian perspective) as the history of a people forming a relationship with God and creating a language and forging a bond, all in preparation for hearing further teachings that the language (including, for example, the prophesies) have prepared them for. This will help put in context some of the harsher, less understandable things that are attributed to God. Don't expect that the writers of the Old Testament will have the same context as those of the New Testament or the context that we have today. It's actually quite valuable to read the books of the Bible (particularly the New Testament) in chronological order, as in the order in which they were written. You start to see that we assume too much if we assume that everyone is writing from our perspective, divine inspiration or no divine inspiration.

Hatred is hatred is hatred, however. I've reached a point now that I don't put any work into maintaining friendships with people who are so intolerant that they can classify ANY group as bad or sinful or whatever.

Peace.

Some days, there's nothing but air. -- Frank Romeo Cockatiel

Will you marry me!!
A master's in theology--you are one deep chick...


Shimmy

"Get up from your bed of rest
It's been a long time since you've lived" Beck

But wait, if we marry, then I'm afraid that my immortal soul will suffer for it for all eternity!

Anyway, I didn't finish the master's, just started it, so don't be impressed.

Peace.

Some days, there's nothing but air. -- Frank Romeo Cockatiel

who think that EVERYONE is sinful (as the text says)?

can they not be your friend also?

What I'm really talking about are people who are so invested in making themselves right that they have to see others as wrong. So, sanctimonious posturing isn't well received in my arena. That's what I mean. It's completely different when people are willing to see themselves as a part of the struggle toward the greater good rather than a judge sitting on the sidelines pointing out those who are failing.

I also have a slightly different take on original sin and the concept of everyone being sinful than your average cradle Christian. I don't see this as anything more than a description of the experiential reality that each of us has areas in which we can improve. I know I sure do. But I think there are ways in which we can focus on the end of suffering that don't make other people suffer more -- so an end to suffering for everyone, not just the people we approve of.

Peace.

Some days, there's nothing but air. -- Frank Romeo Cockatiel

Could not have said it better myself. Faith is one of the most complex topics I've ever encountered in terms of homosexuality but you have pounced with such intellectual bite without being patronizing or arrogant. Good job.

Can one purchase the Jerusalem Bible at any commericial or christian bookstore, or does it have to be specially ordered?

Any well stocked bookstore, any non-denominational christian bookstore, every Catholic bookstore for sure.

Peace.

We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars. -- Oscar Wilde

Thanks. I'd like for you to e-mail me at meudontno@hotmail.com, so that I can share with you some of the things that I come across. Also, I've been taking a New African theology class, where we learn about how some of the customs of Christianity are completely European, and are extensions of white supremacy. Some of the falsifications associated with this are the practice of vicarious sacrifice, in which one feels that if they believe that Jesus Christ died on the cross for the sins of mankind, then their sins will be forgiven. Also, we discuss how the belief in the Holy Trinity (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) is a polytheistic practice of worshipping three separate entities that somehow become one God. I'm still trying to research how true this is for myself, but this belief that the Europeans tried to impose on the African people is what prompted the emergence of Islam, which was to restore a monotheistic practice of spirituality.

But once again, please e-mail me (as well as anyone else) so I can share some things with you. Thanks again.

MR. ANONYMITY

and I appreciate the offer but I am no longer a member of any religion. I use the Christian perspective to write from on many occasions because it is a perspective that many, if not most, Americans can understand and often relate to. I appreciate the value of the teaching, but at the end of the day, my experiential understanding of the world is better processed through a different kind of filter, which turns out to be a form of Buddhism. But I appreciate the offer.

Peace.

We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars. -- Oscar Wilde

I won't go into my personal opinions about homosexuality, but if you want to be technical, Christians who believe that homosexuals are sinful simply because they practice sexual immorality must hold heterosexuals who participate in casual sex accountable for what they do. So my question is, would you find it hypocritical to subject someone under a puritanical sense of morality when you are just as much a violator?

..saved as in believing, accepting, and proclaiming that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. So if they've been baptized and profess this, they ain' gonna burn..just like we heterosexuals who believe the same.

People have problems with homosexuals because they say they're "living in sin"...We live in sin everyday..are heterosexual couples who "shack" going to hell?

Homosexuality might not be God's preference, but then again, I don't think having sex before marriage is His preference either...

Little sins.......

Stealing won't get you a less hot seat in hell than murder......

I agree with Delta. Adultry will get you the same reservation at the bonfire as homosexuality - THE DIFFERENCE is contriteness, repentance and forgiveness. Christians aren't perfect; we're FORGIVEN.

Live from the Shoe Sto'
NuShooz

I,I, I Can't Wait!

nushooz@blackplanet.com

That slogan is exactly the kind of sanctimonious piety that sets my teeth on edge. I know you don't mean it this way, but notice that the way that it's phrased, it appears to set Christians apart -- i.e., others aren't perfect either but they're NOT forgiven. Yikes.

You know that someone asked Gandhi whether he could ever convert to Christianity, and he said something to the effect that he would consider it, based on the teachings, if he could ever find a place in which it was practiced. That's kind of my allergic reaction in a nutshell.


Peace.

Some days, there's nothing but air. -- Frank Romeo Cockatiel

...this conversation talks about folk going to hell and what God will and will not accept. it's really not for us to say. but what i DO KNOW & have learned from my Christian studies is that I nor you or anybody else is perfect.....but if YOU seek forgiveness and are contrite and repent, YOU CAN KNOW SALVATION.......ANYBODY.......MY statement speaks to those who think that Christians are supposed to be perfect.....we simply are not.......

Live
Nu

I,I, I Can't Wait!

nushooz@blackplanet.com

it's so much more palatable when you put it that way. :-)

Peace.

Some days, there's nothing but air. -- Frank Romeo Cockatiel

:-)

>..saved as in believing, accepting, and
>proclaiming that Jesus Christ is
>the Son of God.
>So if they've been baptized
>and profess this, they ain'
>gonna burn..just like we heterosexuals
>who believe the same.

Our repective sexualities---homosexual, hetero, whatever---- are so hardwired into us that it would seem sadistic for a "God" to predispose you to want it and then say damn people for impulses imbedded in them. I'm not a Christian, but from everything I've read about the guy, it doesn't seem like too many modern-day Christians would agree with anything he said.

>People have problems with homosexuals because
>they say they're "living in
>sin"...We live in sin everyday..are
>heterosexual couples who "shack" going
>to hell?
>
>Homosexuality might not be God's preference,
>but then again, I don't
>think having sex before marriage
>is His preference either...

I don't think God has peferences. I mean, if his will is absolute, then isn't the reality in whch we exist his preference? If he's omnipotent, his preferences are the rule, no?

----Initiating shutdown sequence----
----Deactivating Soul Brother
Prototype:"Quest"- - -

"Your nerd jokes mean nothing to me. I gotta go keep it real." (c) Riley, The Boondocks
*******************
QuestOn4: i get irritated though, that black media is under the impression that all black people are Christians.
KaRaS: i know
KaRaS: black media is such a crock of doody pops sometimes anyways
KaRaS: and BET? ugh! i won't even start on them
KaRaS: lol
QuestOn4: man...
KaRaS: lol
QuestOn4: BET.
QuestOn4: they...
QuestOn4: they're special.
QuestOn4: they're really special.
KaRaS: indeed!
QuestOn4: what the fuck does Black
Star Power mean, anyway?
KaRaS: i dunno
KaRaS: whatever talib and mos have that helps them fight crime
QuestOn4: lol
QuestOn4: lmao!
KaRaS: lol
*******************
AIM: QuestOn4

Preferences as in..your Mom and Dad might want you to or prefer that you go to college, and get a good education. Just because you choose not to go and decide to become a "starving artist" does not mean that they don't love you. They'll be disappointed, but that's because they want the best for you.

If god's will is absolute, than what he says, GOES.

So if God's preference was that people not be gay, they wouldn't be.


----Initiating shutdown sequence----
----Deactivating Soul Brother Prototype: "Quest"----

but...

it wouldn't happen.

If you believe everything God says is absolute, then his mere preference would make it so.

but it exist. Does that mean God isn't all-powerful? Or does it simply mean that God doesn't care about what peopel do with their sex lives.

----Initiating shutdown sequence----
---Deactivating Soul Brother Prototype: "Quest"---

"This place is nuttier than bukkake flicks." (c) Me

AIM: QuestOn4

#######################################

written by man. So if you read it somewhere , alwayse remember that a man wrote it. I believe that is something God and people who are homosexual to contend with.


We love because it's the only true
adventure. Nikki Giovanni

Let's unpack this a little bit. We can't just make that statement and not expect a little opposition from the believers in those religious texts, because it is a part of their belief that the texts were written by men who were divinely inspired. Maybe not automatic writing, but at least under the personal direction of God.

So we need to see that the statement standing alone won't make headway with anyone who is already arguing that a religious text says that gays are damned. We might, on the other hand, be able to explore the openness of that person's mind by talking with them about what divine inspiration means. Does it mean dictation? Not usually. Usually it means that the person doesn't receive the exact words to put down, but receives a spiritual gift of communication skills and a message to relay. But the message isn't necessarily in words, and the person who is struggling to put the divine message into words is hampered by his cultural contexts, by his language and its limitations, by his own grasp of that language, and by the agenda or marketing that he is wrapping the words in.

For example, look at the four Gospels. They all tell the same story, but they tell it from different perspectives and to different audiences. And they have very different impacts. For example, Matthew was writing for a Jewish community and so made a lot of effort to pull in all the prophesies and signs and symbols that would speak to a Jewish audience.

Whoops. Better stop while I'm ahead. Don't get me started on this. I love the way the Gospels differ and the comparison of them. I love how there's this theme in Mark of Christ taking bread, blessing it, BREAKING IT, and distributing it, and what a perfect metaphor that is for anyone who gives him or herself to God, in whatever way. But I'm not teaching a theology class here, and you guys would get bored really fast if I were, so I'll shut up now. ;-)

Peace.

Some days, there's nothing but air. -- Frank Romeo Cockatiel

#######################################

The part in the Bible that discusses homosexuality , were based on laws created by man . I think it is in Leviticus, I just took a class on the bible this summer, and the professor explained that those laws were actually Jewish laws. I'll look it up when I get home. :)


We can also argue that since you are born homosexual, that God created homosexuality and why would he condemn something He created.


We love because it's the only true
adventure. Nikki Giovanni

That's true, but as I noted above, that generally elicits the response that homosexuality is a choice made by man in exercising the free will given him by God. So then you have to actually address the choice question.

There are a lot of cultural taboos that are prohibited by the Bible, and of course whether or not people believe that breaking those taboos will send someone to hell seems to have a lot to do with what the speaker's personal opinion of the taboo is. For example, I don't see a lot of people running around claiming that anyone who is not circumsized is going to hell. Or that anyone who eats milk and meat together is going to hell. But when it comes to the bedroom, it seems like everyone has a strong opinion. Opinion polls on masturbation are mixed.

Sometimes it's exhausting, don't you find?


Peace.

Some days, there's nothing but air. -- Frank Romeo Cockatiel

>
>
>We can also argue that
>since you are born homosexual,
>that God created homosexuality and
>why would he condemn something
>He created.

This is exactly what I think. I have felt the way I feel for women every since I was a child (7yrs old to be exact). Knowone can tell me I choose it. I didn't know there was choice at that age. All i knew was I liked girls. The same is true about my girlfriend/lover. She is a woman. Not a feminine woman. She has masculine taste. She doesn't choose her make-up (for lack of a good way to put it). She doesn't choose her taste. It is all wrapped up into WHO she is. People tend to think homosexuality is all based on who you sleep with. When really that is the smallest part of WHO we are. It has nothing to with sex. It has to do with HOW we love...

When the world stops freaking out on the way we have sex, and sees us as regular people, then maybe Gay people will be better understood.

I absolutely agree with you. I think also that there have been some studies in the last 10 years or so that indicate that sexuality is biologically determined and so is neither a choice nor a learned behavior.

Peace.

I play it off, but I'm dreaming of you. -- Macy Gray

I also think it can be linked to heredity. Which is why I've noticed some families have several gay people and some have none.

Seems like the fact that one person in the family was out might encourage other gay members to be overt as well, but that's behavior in my book and not sexuality. Or am I splitting hairs?


Peace.

I play it off, but I'm dreaming of you. -- Macy Gray

:) No way. Knowone can influence you to prefer one sex or the other.

I mean you can be influenced in whether or not you tell the rest of the family! No, I completely agree -- you can choose to engage in behaviors but you can't choose who claims your heart.

Peace.

I play it off, but I'm dreaming of you. -- Macy Gray

Random December Quotes:
"'Man, I want to get a t-shirt explaining how to pronounce my name'"
--Kamil, aka Kam4/LiMak79 during a silly ass AIM convo

"Ryan, have you ever played with breasts in your life?'"
"'MOMMM!!!!!!! yea...blow up dolls are kewl!'"
--a recent thanksgiving dinner convo in which Ma Dukes wanted to know if i had EVERhad sex with a woman... :P




"'What? you can't hook my bachelor pad up? You dont wear flashy clothes? Man, you NOT GAY!'"
--a goofy ass AIM convo from that guy from WestPhilly who lives in Cleveland now...what's his name again?

--"I'm hot shit!"
--"Of COURSE you are, carrying SEVERAL STD'S would make you hot, ya know!'"
me telling a friend of mine why she thinks she's so "hot"


"Fuck a Love connection, Ryan...i need a DICK connection. THe inner walls is CALLING for it, okay?"
--my best friend as to why she was in need recently... :)

Has your friend had sex? Does she masturbate? Does anyone else who believes that gays are going to helll? Because if so, you'll be joining them . . .

Giving you true calcio since 1986

AIM: Marinera81
ICQ: 69123425
EMAIL: jonah_b27@hotmail.com

Check out http://www.greatergood.com Help end world hunger, save the rainforest, help stop AIDS in Africa, help children survive in 3rd world countries, stop breast cancer, and give treatment to landmine victims in less than a minute a day! FOR FREE! NO FORMS TO FILL OUT AND NO STRINGS! REALLY!!!

whhy woulod anyone who knows the true origins of the Bible and it's prophecies i.e written by men for control over the populus, that homosexuals are going to hell or are heelbound because of their sexual orientation. God is love, unconditional, he never abandons us, we abandon him by not aknowleding the love that we all hold for one another. By not living in peace, teaching our young to be people of truth, sexual preference, I beleive, is not a concern for God. So, are Homosexuals sinners, who gives a fuck, what matters is their happiness, it is none of our concern if their souls are going to hell or not, we should just worry about our own asses!

Go here... I think they reflect the gays and hell thing. http://www.godhatesfags.com its the Westborough Baptist Church WBC) they came to protest at my school in jolly ole new hampshire. it was sick because they people holding up the signs ot protest were little children and teenagers, but thats what they believe in. I personally think its sick, but hey they have their 1st amendment right. right?
simma on that
peaz and big ole blak love,
mello
~~~~~~~~
AIM: Mello01
Homepage: http://members.blackplanet.com/2bYGB/
E-mail: melvin@poetic.com

********
If knowledge was your wealth, then it would be well-earned. -Silly E. Badu

Gary, Indiana, the city of the new century. -Mello

Did you hear about the rose that grew from the concrete? -Pac

Give a dayum if any fam recall my legacy, I'm tryna live life in tha sight of God's memory... -Mos Def

Its time to get some Ghetto Heaven
-Rasheed & D'

The people, united, will never be defeated. - Talib

Lemme just use this opportunity to speak up and say what has been on my mind for as long as hip-hop's been in my ear. I don't know if this is the objective, but I can't establish a solid love for hip-hop until the HYPOCRISY gets the fuck up out of the way. I hear my favorite acts (some unmentioned OK heads) tell me some shit about gays, about whites, like it doesn't cause problems for black lips to generalize and to hate.

Get some perspective.

n

"...you're wrong, son,
if you thought I wasn't droppin' a ton..."

i fear i won't even be able to discuss the original post...

BUT...

to the cats who say they "believe" something may be the case about cats who dig cats...

please stop, you have no scientific research, evidence, or anything. Ancedotal crap based on conversation and television programs does not mean anything. For awhile cats "thought" apples fell from trees 'cause the apples wanted to...

let's commit ourselves to educatinng ourselves and actually learning something real.

NEXT...

there is no such thing as the word of god except whatever god appears and says to you--'cause everything else is not "valid" or "reliabile" (in the research sense of the terms) because it's all second or third hand, whisper down the alley style, and people can lie about "what god said"

the only "word of god" is what god tells YOU, and that's only the word of god FOR YOU. God might've told some other cat something else, so the entire movement to claim authority over gods opinions becomes moot, so let's drop it.


NEXT...

the answer to all these questions lies in exploring what does god mean...

oh, this is hot, i'll leave a new post after work

When I was a boy, I did some time as a seriously devout Christian. I read most of the Bible, went to church regularly, tried to live right...alla dat. Everything was basically w/me and "God" until I was a sophomore in high school. That was when the latent sexual thoughts I had about men for as long as I can remember started to become explicit. I was definitely NOT under anyone's influence nor was I being recruited. The thoughts/feelings were coming from within. But I'd learned in my church that homosexuality is a sin. So I didn't believe it was really happening to me - I couldn't conceive of being gay cuz it was so far outside of "God's graces". Well, the feelings/thoughts became increasingly difficult to ignore and all sources were telling me I was gonna end up in hell if I didn't do something. So I did what any good Christian would do...I prayed about it. I prayed and prayed and prayed...I mean I FELL ON MY FACE IN PRAYER...("Lord take this cup from me")...this went on for a good year or so. I never heard an answer.

In my Jr. year, while all this was going on, I was studying the history of the Christian church in school and I learned many things that disturbed me. I was particularly disturbed by the editing of the Bible that occured in about 400AD or so. All of a sudden, I wasn't so sure that everything in the Bible was God's word. That thought blew my head. I started to question everything I'd ever learned as far as my religious beliefs were concerned. My church had me believing I was destined for hell not just b/c of the gay thing, but b/c I listened to secular music too. I knew that was bullshit. I did much soul searching over the course of the next 3 years. I don't remember when it happened, but somewhere in there I finally got my answer. The answer came in the form of supreme peace. It washed over me. To me it meant that whoever God is, God is fine with who I am and I shouldn't allow ppl to make me feel all conflicted about "my soul".

I no longer believe that the Christian concept of God is "correct". I should say, correct for me. I definitely DO NOT believe JC is the ONLY way to access God. There several other paths. I also don't believe in Satan. I believe Satan is a construct of Church leaders, actually. Anyway...I said all that to say as a gay man, I'm not worried about what the Bible says about who I love. If God created us, he created me this way. I don't believe in Heaven and Hell, so the thought of damnation isn't a factor for me.

"My name is Lex & I'm a freestyle board addict..." ~~me at my weekly meeting

"words just disguise/all of the things/that you be" ~~Bilal

"hell emphatically no" (c) Damon Wayans in Bamboozled

carameldom@hotmail.com
http://members.blackplanet.com/Lex319

From the bmore/dc area? check out the Bmore Okplayers at http://www.egroups.com

What's up HotThyng. I hate boards sometimes don't you? It's a quick fix; it lets people get on a high horse for a minute and then be out w/o dealing face to face with someone's confronting energy. But here you are with just your honesty and your personal story, baring yourself. Thank you for that. I am Methodist born, Presby by faith. I just wanted to point out that you said, "I read most of the Bible, went to church regularly, tried to live right...alla dat." Most of us born into a Christian family suffer with the same way of thinking, that DOING or living right, will somehow earn our way into heaven, even if we know the theology. I fall into this scenario everyday. And because I seek out understanding of theology and scripture, I also fall into a more condemned label of being a "Pharisee." That's where I beat you over the head with laws and rights and wrongs. But you obviously know all this. You already seem to understand that DOING won't get you where you and I both want to be. I do too (even though my actions don't always reflect). My invitation lies here: I'm still a Christian. I believe there's a better way than DOING. If you'd like to learn how, screw the response and beating over heads with homophobia that goes on over here. Write me an email. Find out why I agree with you about not finding God through doing, yet have found another way through Christ. Interested? Email:stanwooh@hotmail.com

You're right, I'm very familiar with the idea that it takes a combo of FAITH and WORKS to make it into heaven, according to some sectors of the Christian church. But as I said, I no longer believe in all that.

Thanks for the offer though.

Dear Dr. Love
Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's law. I have learned a great deal from you, and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind him that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate. I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the specific laws and how to best follow them.

When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev. 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. How should I deal with this?

I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as it suggests in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev. 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

Lev. 25:44 states that I may buy slaves from the nations that are around us. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexico but not Canada. Can you clarify?

I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination (Lev. 10:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

Lev. 20:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.
Sincerely,
A Concerned Crusader

"In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is stoned to death"
Joan D. Vinge, 'Psion'

OH JESUS... :) :P }>

you got me blasphemin everywhere when i read thispost...too much and SO TRUE! :)

Ryan



Random December Quotes:
"'Man, I want to get a t-shirt explaining how to pronounce my name'"
--Kamil, aka Kam4/LiMak79 during a silly ass AIM convo

"Ryan, have you ever played with breasts in your life?'"
"'MOMMM!!!!!!! yea...blow up dolls are kewl!'"
--a recent thanksgiving dinner convo in which Ma Dukes wanted to know if i had EVERhad sex with a woman... :P




"'What? you can't hook my bachelor pad up? You dont wear flashy clothes? Man, you NOT GAY!'"
--a goofy ass AIM convo from that guy from WestPhilly who lives in Cleveland now...what's his name again?

--"I'm hot shit!"
--"Of COURSE you are, carrying SEVERAL STD'S would make you hot, ya know!'"
me telling a friend of mine why she thinks she's so "hot"


"Fuck a Love connection, Ryan...i need a DICK connection. THe inner walls is CALLING for it, okay?"
--my best friend as to why she was in need recently... :)

Now that ish was funny as phuck!


25percenter


http://www.deep-dickollective.com

Thanks, man. Your piece points out just how silly it is to debate wether gayness is a sin or if people who partake in it are going to "Hell." Where religion begins, logic stops. Okayactivist? As for the gay thang... I can't speak for women, but men are "hardwired" with a need for sex. Have you noticed? It's one of those evolutionary necessities. People have preferences or fetishes, but when it comes down to it, for men, sex is sex. In different places and times, gayness was not only tolerated, it was celebrated. And EVERYBODY did it. In this place and time we're burdened with a taboo morality, religious or otherwise, that complicates matters. All apologies, but as Kurt Cobain said, "What else can I say, everyone is gay." :D

________________________________________
"Don't quote me, boy,
cuz I ain't said shit."

---Eric "Eazy-E" Wright (1963-1993)
________________________________________

First of all I should say that I feel people are born with their sexuality. Who would CHOOSE a life filled with prejudice, brutality, and ostracism simply for the sake of loving someone w/ identical genitalia? I'm willing to bet no one.

God is more concerned with how you live your life and what you do out of the goodness of your heart than H/She is with who you sleep with.

If you're a gay asshole, God isn't going to appreciate that. If you're a straight asshole, God isn't going to like that too much either.

Only God can know a person's true heart & true motivation. In the end that is all that matters. At least in my opinion.

L.


"My name is Lex & I'm a freestyle board addict..." ~~me at my weekly meeting

"words just disguise/all of the things/that you be" ~~Bilal

"hell emphatically no" (c) Damon Wayans in Bamboozled

carameldom@hotmail.com
http://members.blackplanet.com/Lex319

From the bmore/dc area? check out the Bmore Okplayers at http://www.egroups.com

IM NOT AT ALL CONCERNED WITH WHO TRANSLATED OR WROTE THE BIBLE. WHAT CONCERNS ME IS WHAT GOD SAID, WHAT GOD WANTS, WHO WE HAVE TO GO THROUGH TO GET TO HIM, AND WHO THE HOLY SPIRIT USED TO GET GODS WORD ACROSS. ANYTHING OUTSIDE OF THAT CAN ONLY BE USED TO HELP GET THROUGH DAILY LIVING WHETHER IT IS TRUE OR NOT.

NOW AS FAR AS THE GAY SITUATION, I DON'T AGREE WITH HOMOSEXUALITY, BUT, I DO BELIEVE THAT ALL PEOPLE HAVE THE RIGHT TO BE RESPECTED AS INDIVIDUALS. IF YOU DON'T LIKE SOMEONE YOU JUST AVOID THEM, YOU DON'T TRY TO MAKE LIFE DIFFICULT FOR THEM. BESIDES, THERE ARE MANY STRAIGHT PEOPLE WHO DO VERY UN-NATURAL THINGS.

NOWHERE IN THE BIBLE DOES IT SAY THAT IT'S ALRIGHT TO SLEEP WITH SOMEBODY SIMPLY BECAUSE YOU LOVE THEM, YET PEOPLE FORNICATE (HAVE "CASUAL SEX") EVERYDAY. THEN WONDER WHY SO MANY THINGS GO WRONG IN THEIR LIVES. BY NOW YOU ALL SHOULD KNOW WHAT THE WAGES(PRICE)OF SIN IS. (RELIGION AND SEXUALITY GOES DEEPER IN RELATION THAN MANY OF YOU MAY THINK)

SO WITH THIS I SAY "LET HE WITHOUT SIN CAST THE FIRST STONE."

Every word that tressy just said is totally agreed up on by me.

Thank you tressy.

Peace!!!!!!

BurbKnight- Software Developer (Gyrodata Inc.- Houston)

"BRING YO ANUS!!!!!!!!!" - My way of telling my future kids, they are in trouble.

Houston OkayPlayer Squad:

BurbKnight, Finesse, k_ysla, Solange, PolarBear, chocolateboywonder a.k.a BrotherBear (on and off), ReignStorm, MeganF (on and off), Ms.B, SoulOne, unohoo, pheen, slimpockets, voodoo1, bc, DELTA1393, foxfoto, SupermanFrom281, copperwings, MrBastard, Madame X, sthngrl


AIM: BurbKnight

Houston's next hip-hop sensation, K-Otix, homepage:
http://www.k-otix.com

Okayplayer Directory: http://theblackknight.tripod.com/okayplayer/okayplayer.html

i'm sick of this spiritual homosexualism ...god does not exist to glorify us, but we all exist to glorify god..

at the risk of disagreeing with everybody i'm gonna break it down so it can forevr be broken..

i have studied the bible but for the sake of this discussion i'm only gonna quote from the qur'an, the final revelation to mankind..there's no ambiguity there...

..throughout the quran allah talks about homosexuals and even relates how the cities of sodom and gomorrah were destroyed because of it..

chapt. 15 "the rocky tract"

51. Tell them about the guests of Abraham.

52. When they entered his presence and said, "Peace!" He said, "We feel afraid of you!"

53. They said: "Fear not! We give thee glad tidings of a son endowed with knowledge."

54. He said: "Do ye give me glad tidings even though old age has seized me? Of what, then, is your good news?"

55. They said: "We give thee glad tidings in truth: be not then in despair!"

56. He said: "And who despairs of the mercy of his Lord, but such as go astray?"

57. Abraham said: "What then is the business on which ye (have come), O ye messengers (of Allah)?"

58. They said: "We have been sent to a people (deep) in sin,

59. "Excepting the adherents of Lüt: them We are certainly (charged) to save (from harm),- All -

60. "Except his wife, who, We have ascertained, will be among those who will lag behind."

61. At length when the messengers arrived among the adherents of Lüt,

62. He said: "Ye appear to be uncommon folk."

63. They said: "Yea, we have come to thee to accomplish that of which they doubt.

64. "We have come to thee with the truth, and assuredly we tell the truth.

65. "Then travel by night with thy household, when a portion of the night (yet remains), and do thou go behind them: let no
one amongst you look back, but pass on whither ye are ordered."

66. And We made known this decree to him, that the last remnants of those (sinners) should be cut off by the morning.

67. The inhabitants of the City came in (mad) joy (at news of the young men).

68. Lüt said: "These are my guests: disgrace me not:

69. "But fear Allah, and shame me not."

70. They said: "Did we not forbid thee (to speak) for all and sundry?"

71. He said: "There are my daughters (to marry), if ye must act (so)."

72. Verily, by thy life (O Prophet), in their wild intoxication, they wander in distraction, to and fro.

73. But the (mighty) Blast overtook them at sunrise,

74. And We turned (the cities) upside down, and rained down on them brimstones hard as baked clay.

75. Behold! in this are Signs for those who by tokens do understand.

76. And the (cities were) right on the high-road.

77. Behold! in this is a sign for those who believed.


chapt 26 "the poets"


160. The people of Lüt rejected the messengers.

161. Behold, their brother Lüt said to them: "Will ye not fear (Allah)?

162. "I am to you a messenger worthy of all trust.

163. "So fear Allah and obey me.

164. "No reward do I ask of you for it: my reward is only from the lord of the Worlds.

165. "Of all the creatures in the world, will ye approach males,

166. "And leave those whom Allah has created for you to be your mates? Nay, ye are a people transgressing (all limits)!"

167. They said: "If thou desist not, O Lüt! thou wilt assuredly be cast out!"

168. He said: "I do detest your doings."

169. "O my Lord! deliver me and my family from such things as they do!"

170. So We delivered him and his family,- all

171. Except an old woman who lingered behind.

172. Then the rest We destroyed utterly.

173. We rained down on them a shower (of brimstone): and evil was the shower on those who were admonished (but
heeded not)!

174. Verily in this is a Sign: but most of them do not believe.

175. And verily thy Lord is He, the Exalted in Might Most Merciful.


i can't believe that all of you are of the opinion that god is down with whatever you're down with..
if everybody was goin to heaven why is there a hell..?..just be cause we have inclinations to commit some act doesn't mean god condones it..as a man i'm inclined to have sex with every fine woman i see, but just because god made me heterosexual and gave me a penis doesn't mean that
i'm licensed to behave as i see fit...

we have to be very careful of letting our own desires become our god, make god your guide not your lusts...don't let your dick/clit run your life...

so what does that mean to you?/you awfully concerned about what i do/for somebody that don't wanna kiss me :)


i'm overloaded with your information/saturated with your opinions
as boy loving brothers get covered so fast in the stank ass smothering onions of your religion
but i be *atheist* saying this/so you dont get the gist/and think that my twist in the wind is indecision/ you as dumb as a box of rox lady/
you rate fate faded, played like argyle socks in the late 80s

fagdissin is a has-been/so let me stop rhymin' and go find my boyfriend/or a lesbian



pointfivefag and 25percenter from "straighttrippin"

get the "that de/EP" sampler by emailing me through this post.

hey damali!

aint this some shit?

(neverevergonnagetit...) :)


http://www.deep-dickollective.com

wassup mayne?



Random December Quotes:
"'Man, I want to get a t-shirt explaining how to pronounce my name'"
--Kamil, aka Kam4/LiMak79 during a silly ass AIM convo

"Ryan, have you ever played with breasts in your life?'"
"'MOMMM!!!!!!! yea...blow up dolls are kewl!'"
--a recent thanksgiving dinner convo in which Ma Dukes wanted to know if i had EVERhad sex with a woman... :P




"'What? you can't hook my bachelor pad up? You dont wear flashy clothes? Man, you NOT GAY!'"
--a goofy ass AIM convo from that guy from WestPhilly who lives in Cleveland now...what's his name again?

--"I'm hot shit!"
--"Of COURSE you are, carrying SEVERAL STD'S would make you hot, ya know!'"
me telling a friend of mine why she thinks she's so "hot"


"Fuck a Love connection, Ryan...i need a DICK connection. THe inner walls is CALLING for it, okay?"
--my best friend as to why she was in need recently... :)

I'm not even "inclined" to deep dic every thick and corn fed phyne negro I see....so your earlier disqualification was curious..

dic ain't god, but i thank god fo th' dick. Ultimately, I exist because of th dic!
(hey that rhymed) :-)

isn't it ultimately about discretion not about preference. I'm no Christian (a p.k. = preacher's kid....if you in the know, then yall unnerstand), but I was always told that S and G was destroyed because of the lustful hearts of men....didn't say they were homiesexuals....maybe a lil freaky and horny......but then again...wasn't dude willing to graciously offer his under-aged daughter to the supposed "fags." Maybe the angel dudes looked better than the women in Sodom or something. Hey us in-betweeners sometimes have a hard time choosin....depends on the merchandise.....which isn't to suggest that we aren't monogamously inclined....just that maybe the dudes in that town were better lookin than the girls. I'm havin a hard time in the Bay cuz dudes ain't that cute here.....it ain't Brooklyn....that's for sure.

It feel so good to be dogma-free and to still know a god who love me.

25percenter

God made all!!!...Even though, I am not gay...I feel, that if it is a sin...Let God be the judge of that one!!!

*******XMAS SIGS*******

"I can't believe, Christmus missed us."--B.I.G.(R.I.P.)!!!

Dear Santa:

I want a new Playstation and a Playmate, to with me and my
Playstation...and I ain't Playin'!!!

Much Love,
Brown Sugar

"Got my tree...I'm smelling this pine, and it is divine"--Brownsugar

"Give love on Christmas day"--And thereafter!!!:-)

PUN intended too! :)
RC



"'One must return to the past in order to move foward with his or her future'".


"'Conformity and Individuality are two varying and difficult extremes...Baby, strive to be an individual. Ill respect you more and KNOW that my raising you is not in vain'".
--Mama Canty

i do not think that all gay people are going to hell, although i dont believe in hell, so i guess i just dont think that it is wrong. i think that it may not be the smartest lifestyle to choose, (being openly gay at least, cuz people always say that they cant change being gay) because the majority of people dont except gays, and the fact that sex is for reproduction. to love someone of the same sex is completely different from being sexually attracted to them, and i think that a lot of times people think that they are gay when they really just are different and that is a popular persona to take on today, because we hear so much about the issue. but i have no problem with gay people as long as they dont expect me to be involved in that part of their lives. a few of my close friends are gay, or claim to be, but that hasnt changed our relationships, well, except with one girl who now says shes a lesbian. interesting topic. peace out to all

email, im : derby83g@cs.com
derby

>Do most people belive homosexuality is
>a sin,

dont know...

>and all gay
>people are going to burn
>in hell?
lets say hypothetically homosexuality is a sin. what makes that any greater a sin then any other? we all sin...i mean ALL OF US! if sin is the basis for going to hell then we are all going no matter weather your choice of sin is fibbing or not keeping the sabbath day holy or having a same sex relationship...so grab a gay friends hand and dose doh cus you and i are gonna burn toO under that logic!
i find it commical how people like to make out other peoples sins out to weigh more then their own. im guilty of it too but logically it doesnt make any sense. even your most holy of holy men sins and he is no better or worse then the next man.



>My best friend and i have
>debated this recently and she
>beleives this. I just have
>a difficult time accepting that
>if GOD is LOVE,

yes he is...

>this would be the case...

>What do you all think?

read above!

IM OUT LIKE TROUT.
AIM Carmel3494 say ure okp

Those that condemn homosexuality...are they doing it out of love and concern for the homosexual's well being, or just for the feeling of "I know the Bible more than you do, and I have the power to decide how much God thinks of you"? Christians are supposed to walk in love...first of all you are supposed to offer peace.....if the peace don't come back, then you don't press on no more, you go on elsewhere.....Christians sometimes seem to be frustrated and want to condemn and complain until THEY, not God, has control over the "sinner". You don't go about preaching the Word by speaking about the person's abomination, you speak of upliftment, and the fact that Christ loves, lives, and died for us, regardless of whatever....Once the person accepts that he/she is embraced by the Father, then he can willingly grow in the Word....Pushing YOUR agenda ain't gonna work....God wants us how we are, not how YOU want em....Let Him do the work, I'm sure you got your own life to keep on the straight and narrow...you plant seeds in others,and water them....you can't pull em out of the ground when you feel like it....you let em grow.


"....For if their purpose or activity is of
human origin, it will fail. But if it is
from God, you will not be able to stop
these men; you will only find
yourselves fighting against God."
Acts 5:38

#######################################

Christians do not like anything that is not within their own lifestyles.



We love because it's the only true
adventure. Nikki Giovanni

ultimately that can be said of all of us on some level or other.

The more different someone is from us, the less connection we feel, the less we are inclined to accept that person as a human being, as our neighbor, as our brother or sister.

And it's worth taking a deeper look at the parable of the Good Samaritan for some essential truths about what Christianity has to say about people who are different but compassionate as opposed to people who are like us but do not have their hearts open.

I thought I was hearing much of this from notnac.

I also still stand by my earlier (#7) post.

Peace.

We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars. -- Oscar Wilde

Homosexuality is a sin but it's no bigger a sin than lying, stealing, lusting, having evil thoughts. A straight-laced "Christian" will go to hell just as quickly as the "sinner" they constantly persecute. I believe homosexuality is wrong b/c it goes against one of God's purposes for man (to reproduce) but at the same time, I can't judge and hold that against someone. It just isn't my place...that God's call.

My Moment of Truth: May 12, 2001, 9:00 AM, Greensboro Coliseum

me on:

Mystikal---Why is he in the desert with a turtleneck sweater on?? And why does everyone else have on a bikini??

Felix Trinidad---If I was you sparring partner, we would practice your jab all day long.

Kingsport, TN---It just looks like a bunch of dirt but, I better get used to it since I'll be living there after graduation.

Emeril---I cannot get enough of this guy!! BAM!! Another notch!! Oh yeah, baby!!

The "A Long Walk" video---Dayum Mr. Ice Cream/Slushee/some kinda frozen treat man, can I get two scoops of you!!

can anyone give me a summary of what happened with these 2 in the bible?


--Brown Thought

>can anyone give me a summary
>of what happened with these
>2 in the bible?
>
>
>--Brown Thought

OK -- time to put on my rabbi hat. S'dom and 'Amora (that's the Hebrew pronunciation) were two cities that G-d decided to destroy when no righteousness could be found within their borders. Abraham and G-d have an argument on this point, showing that G-d listens to dissenting opinions (PAY ATTENTION, HOMOPHOBES) and sometimes changes the G-dmind accordingly. Not finding even 10 good folks in the cities, G-d decides they have to go, fire and brimstone and ABBA records raining down all the day long. (GENESIS 18:16 - 19:29)

Why? THE BIBLE DOESN'T TELL US. The ancient rabbis who put down in writing the Jewish Talmud noted the way in which the inhabitants treated strangers, attacking them rather than offering hospitality. To traditional Jewish sources then, the sins of S'dom and Amora were not sexual, but rather THEIR CRUELTY AND LACK OF HOSPITALITY TO STRANGERS. This makes RUDY GULIANI THE BIGGEST "SODOMOITE" IN NEW YORK.

I'm glad that we're all getting textual and biblical, but I always find it damn funny how thong-clad honies in Benzos are just fine and dandy, but when the subject is gay folks, suddenly all you Sir Mack-a-lots become preachers. Double standard anyone?

Meanwhile, does anyone here remember reading in their history books about how slave-owners used the bible to justify the shackles? (That tired old "sons of Noah" argument ? -- please....) Sound familiar?

Look -- Here's the deal. Use the bible to love and learn, and your best self will emerge. DON'T TAKE BIBLE FROM STRANGERS. Go and learn. Until we engage seriously in a discussion of our sacred texts and their significance for our lives, we will be forced to live by one view of the Bible – an impoverished, brittle view, characterized by intolerance and dishonor. But we have an alternative. Our alternative is to pursue a view of the bible that is respectful and infused with dignity, a Bible that tells us we are created in the image of G-d, a Bible that instructs us to be kind to the stranger, to plead for the orphan, to open our hands to the needy, a Bible that tells us that it is NOT acceptable for one group of people to enslave another, but rather redemption and freedom DO come, and THAT is G-d’s will. Our alternative is to emulate our heroes David and Jonathan (they did love each other -- yeah, like THAT) -- to stand tall for justice, to stand tall for our heritage, to stand tall for each other. If we truly do so, we can ONLY prevail. More respect, less playa-hating.

So there. That's what you get for asking a gay student rabbi who digs the Roots.

-- Mike (student, Academy for Jewish Religion)

Yes, cuz they are in this universe and this universe is hell because the molecules in this universe are burning up which is why they call it the burning hell. The better question would be can they get to the triple black omniverse which is where the real heaven is.

AMEN

The
>better question would be can
>they get to the triple
>black omniverse which is where
>the real heaven is.
>

.5: is that near Anaheim?

http://www.deep-dickollective.com

I think its somewhere up state he he...whats up juba...long time no read....

Regardless of how certain people interpret the scripture, homosexuality is not a sin. Sins consist of things that people have influence over and choose to do. One choses to lie, to steal to cheat on their husband or wife. Being gay is not a choice. Science has proven that one's sexuality is genetically determined, just like the color of your skin. A person does not choose to be gay and therefore that is not something that God can punish them for.

after reading one of ur replies i wrote this, not trying to diss u in anyone tho~ its love-love, or atleast it is in my eyes~


"niggerfaggot: for jubakalamka"

i have often wrestled mine being more female
or more blk
mine being more strong or more weak
mine being
more hurt than joyed
u little davie
little davie little davie brite
wrestle tussle wrestle
suckin dk in the day or in the nite
little davie little davie
niggerfaggot
davie
baybeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
ima sing u a song
of bein niggardly
and likin faggotry
davie
u toldmeuwantedtodo
bad
bad boy
things w/ the man across the hall
u want him to kiss u where u sposed
to wash extra clean
so that boot-ay dont itch
davie
who walk w/ a switch
and steal my pretty pannies
and show em to the lanlaydee's
boyfriend.
niggerfaggot davie
u still a man,
u still kewl
w/ me baybee
davie

ATTENTION DAVIE'S DADDY:
sum blk men sk blk dk

ATTENTION DAVIE'S FIRST GIRLFRIEND:
he didnt like u, b/c u aint got no balls gyrl

ATTENTION PEOPLE:
sum blk men fk blk men

davie
is u nigger
or is u faggot
baybee they wanna know.
but i dont care
b/c we wear the same size shoe
and u look cute in my heels
and im better in ur boots
and ur boyfriend
look like a normal man
and his aftershave makes me
horny and we can talk bout sex together
davie b/c u like men more than me
and i aint pick sides
u kewl
bein faggot
and nigger
and a little slice of
love


all in one bite.


RudeGirl/Virgo.

"'One must return to the past in order to move foward with his or her future'".


"'Conformity and Individuality are two varying and difficult extremes...Baby, strive to be an individual. Ill respect you more and KNOW that my raising you is not in vain'".
--Mama Canty

I ain't never seen so many niggers and faggots in my life.

LOL

It was good though.

know what i hate? when someone replies to the whole damn post.
Hot Thyng you backed your words up with scripture, this other cat on the other end though is just trippin' over the fact that there are gay men in the Bible. Do I personally agree with homosexuality? Nope. But I'm not going to prevent someone from being happy in their lives. Stick to the teachings of Jesus, and you'll find your way to heaven's doorstep.

That was *sweet*. and *DOPE* as hell. thank you.
Im glad I could inspire *something* :)

respect due, Rude.

GO RAVENS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"What cements us/is just as important as what prevents us/from being attentive/Cause the spiritual divide causes us all to collide/ in a manner that’s most intensive" ~~WordMosaic

"no matter/whatever/whatever/no...g--girl/u know what I mean" ~~Musiq

I know it is in the bible and all that it is a sin, but this subject always leaves me kind of unsure. I don't see anything wrong with it, as long as it doesn't affect me in any negative way. But if it is a sin, that means that these people are going to hell when they die, and they know it. I say give it up before it is too late, cause he will be here soon.



Insomnia
http://members.blackplanet.com/1star/

"Where were you the day Hip-Hop died?-Talib Kweli

"Umm umm umm, ain't that somethin"- Craig G (The Symphony)

"Why do women want to be equal to men when they are already vastly superior,"~George Bernard Shaw

But if it
>is a sin, that means
>that these people are going
>to hell when they die,
>and they know it. I
>say give it up before
>it is too late, cause
>he will be here soon.

.5 is He bringing beer? :)


http://www.deep-dickollective.com