I was just wondering how everybody felt about the abortion issue. I was watching Dr. Laura's TV show today and she was castigating a caller who had had an abortion for "killing her babies." To all those who are pro-choice how would you respond to her and other Dr. Lauriates who feel that abortion ends a human life? Does anyone think that being anti-death penalty and pro-choice is hypocritical?

Abortion, damn. Talk about contraversal. Let me say right now that I am pro-choice. I dont see how people can be claiming that abortion is murder when miscarriages happen all the time and for reasons that arent the mothers fault. If abortion is murder then what is a miscarriage? Is that manslaughter? Is it murder if the mother drank a couple of beers during pregancy or smoked something before she knew she was pregnant? What would happen if she fell and accidentally caused an abortion? Should we sent her to jail? I think this is a very important whole in the anti-abortion philosophy. I would like to hear how "pro-life" people respond to this.

Ummmmmm --- Ordinarily when one has a miscarriage, it means their body (for some physical reason) was not able to carry the fetus "FULL TERM"; therefore, it would be considered an ACT OF GOD, unless the miscarriage was provoked by lack of care of the body during pregnancy.

But, when one CHOOSES to have an abortion, THEY have decided (for whatever reason) that they no longer want that fetus in their body, therefore they seek medical assistance to terminate said fetus.

There is a definite difference.


Working in the medical field, I can only share MY understanding of the fetus.

It has DNA strands determining race, hair & eye color, etc., etc. --- Along with an undeveloped brain, undeveloped lungs, undeveloped heart & other organs.

In other words, we ain't talkin' 'bout a piece of globby flesh or fat cells ... WE ARE TALKIN' ABOUT AN "UNDEVELOPED" HUMAN BEING! And after 9 months, that human is considered DEVELOPED enough to exist OUTSIDE the womb. So yes, I do feel that abortion is killing a human life --- And UNDEVELOPED Human life!

Aaiight, with that said, I still think that females should have a choice in what they do with their bodies. I only wish they would be more conscious of "life" & protection during sex, so that less females would have a need to even consider abortions.

There's NO excuse for ignorance in this day and age, with schools and everyone else teaching about SEX EDUCATION

And yes I do think that being anti-death penalty and pro-choice is hypocritical?


In my opinion, abortion means a life is being extinguished before it's even had a chance to shine outside the womb.








"I'm so hardcore niggaz take me for granite". - Spontaneous


"if underground means not being exposed, better go on and get your naked ass some clothes" - Dela Soul

>It has DNA strands determining race,
>hair & eye color, etc.,
>etc.

DNA that determines "race"? No scientist/geneticist on the planet agrees with you on that assumption. "Race" has no scientific basis. You are obviously out of your mind. There is no, I repeat, no DNA that determines race. Genes can display certain phenotypical traits, but they do not determine anything that could be construed as a racial identifier. Now back to your regularly scheduled thoughtful discussion........

Thanks for reading. I love you.

"What are you but my reflection, who am I to judge or strike you down?" - MJK

In Rotation:
Organized Konfusion - OK
Fiona Apple - When The Pawn
Jimmy Smith - Root Down
OutKast - Stankonia
Tool - Salival
Slum Village - Fantastic Vol II

damn you, bluetiger!!!!!

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

V I V R A N C E
TinkyWinky - marley marl
Vivrant - Pete Rock
bfnh - Premier
guinness - Jay Dee
Mosaic - Hi Tek
Illwill - Hank Shocklee
SqueegieXM - Prince Paul
Kay Dee - Buckwild
Raina - Jazzy Joyce
phil - The Rza
nickelz45 - Diamond D
Donwill - Automator
honorable mention:
fire - fire

"Where the F*CK is my purse icon??????"

Thanks for reading. I love you.

"What are you but my reflection, who am I to judge or strike you down?" - MJK

In Rotation:
Organized Konfusion - OK
Fiona Apple - When The Pawn
Jimmy Smith - Root Down
OutKast - Stankonia
Tool - Salival
Slum Village - Fantastic Vol II

If I stand corrected --- then I stand corrected.

I read so many different periodicals and documents that sometimes my thoughts overlap. However I am by no means "out of my mind",and I would appreciate it if U plan 2 correct me any time in the future, if U could be a little bit more tactful.

I believe this discussion was about ABORTION --- NOT DNA, so if I threw anybody off with my erroneous information --- Then ~MY BAD~

However, I was under the impression that if a female claims a particular male is the father of her baby, by checking the DNA of the baby, they can tell the race of the father --- And not necessarily just the eye color & hair color.

I'f I'm wrong --- Then I'm wrong. Maybe I misunderstood.






"I'm so hardcore niggaz take me for granite". - Spontaneous


"if underground means not being exposed, better go on and get your naked ass some clothes" - Dela Soul

The DNA test can determine with a 99.99% accuracy if the possible father in question has the genetic makeup that would match with the child and thus identify paternity. "Race" is a social construct with absolutely no basis in science or the study of genetics.

Thanks for reading. I love you.

"What are you but my reflection, who am I to judge or strike you down?" - MJK

In Rotation:
Organized Konfusion - OK
Fiona Apple - When The Pawn
Jimmy Smith - Root Down
OutKast - Stankonia
Tool - Salival
Slum Village - Fantastic Vol II

Hotep

I'm just curious what is RACE to you, in YOUR OWN WORDS? Please do not refer me to any other post or website. I've seen them all.

Peace
Solarus

"To be perfect is to lack nothing essential to the whole therefore I AM."-Solarus

"And if I have to dead you, it's only cuz I love you."- Talib Kweli

Solarus, I'm not sure who you were asking about their definition of race, but plain & simple, I believe race is any group of people having particular characteristics in common. Normally, this group of people are united or classified together on the basis of common history, nationality, or geographic distribution.

I'm sure more detail could be added to this description or definition of race, but this is just my 2 cents.








"I'm so hardcore niggaz take me for granite". - Spontaneous


"if underground means not being exposed, better go on and get your naked ass some clothes" - Dela Soul

If you wish to get a glimpse of my views and my awareness of facts regarding the fallacy of "race", you are welcome to search this site, this forum, and its archives. If that doesn't help, email me. I do not wish to continually restate where I stand on dismantling the lies we call "race".

Thanks for reading. I love you.

"What are you but my reflection, who am I to judge or strike you down?" - MJK

In Rotation:
Organized Konfusion - OK
Fiona Apple - When The Pawn
Jimmy Smith - Root Down
OutKast - Stankonia
Tool - Salival
Slum Village - Fantastic Vol II

bluetiger, I would like to get a glimpse of your views regarding the fallacy of "race", but unfortunately I don't have time to be searching through the archives and this whole site, looking for them.

Could you just give a brief synopsis of your "factual information" for those of us newbies who haven't seen you continually restating where you stand on this issue.

Cut & paste if you must. I don't mind --- really I don't.






"I'm so hardcore niggaz take me for granite". - Spontaneous


"if underground means not being exposed, better go on and get your naked ass some clothes" - Dela Soul

Hotep

This is EXACTLY what I'm talking about. My last post was written DIRECTLY towards YOU (bluetiger). I did not want to start some long drawn-out discussion just a simple answer. However instead of giving me a simple answer you say EXACTLY what I asked you NOT to say.

Let's review.

I said:

"I'm just curious what is RACE to you, in YOUR OWN WORDS? Please do not refer me to any other post or website. I've seen them all."



And then you replied:

>If you wish to get a
>glimpse of my views and
>my awareness of facts regarding
>the fallacy of "race", you
>are welcome to search this
>site, this forum, and its
>archives. If that doesn't help,
>email me. I do not
>wish to continually restate where
>I stand on dismantling the
>lies we call "race".

What kind of sense does that make????? This is plain RIDICULOUS!!! Can your read????

If you want to make a statement that refers to a concept that you apparently have a non-standard definition and understanding of, you should always make a statement explaining what you mean. This is especially true if you make it a point to SPECIFICALLY denigrate one aspect of someone else's remark that was NOT the subject of discussion in a disrescpectful manner (see your comment to Sierra). You could at least have the decency to give a basis for WHY you rudely "corrected" Sierra's statement.

This current message could have been avoided if you would have simply stated your definition for "race," which is all I asked. I did not need a long discussion nor did I attend to initiate one as it is a waste of my time. I just wanted to understand EXACTLY what you mean by "race." Can you do that for me? If you want you can click on my name and email me a private message. It is is not that difficult.

Pitiful but Typical.

Peace
Solarus





"To be perfect is to lack nothing essential to the whole therefore I AM."-
Solarus

"And if I have to dead you, it's only cuz I love you."- Talib Kweli

I don't feel like rehashing this subject over and over and over. You either believe the lie or you don't. That is on you. There would have been no need to continue this if you had checked my previous replies/posts regarding this subject.

As far as me being rude, I know I'm rude sometimes. So what? It serves a purpose sometimes. I'm sarcastic too. Now ask me if I care........

Thanks for reading. I love you.

"What are you but my reflection, who am I to judge or strike you down?" - MJK

In Rotation:
Organized Konfusion - OK
Fiona Apple - When The Pawn
Jimmy Smith - Root Down
OutKast - Stankonia
Tool - Salival
Slum Village - Fantastic Vol II

Yo bluetiger, please forgive me, but I'm relatively new to this board, so I'm not familiar with your re~hashing of this subject OVER & OVER & OVER again.

If it's a lie, then I'd like to know WHY it's a lie --- And it wouldn't require a whole BOOK to explain it to me, cuz I ain't that dense. A brief explanation would suffice. I'm sure there may be others who haven't seen your re~hashing of this subject, also.

Why should we have to search thru *ALL* of your previous replies and posts regarding this subject (SINCE YOU DIDN'T OFFER A SPECIFIC DATE OR SUBJECT TITLE FOR "SAID" POSTS) --- When U could update us in this thread --- and maybe refresh the memories of those who've seen it before?

You seem to take pride in being rude & sarcastic BLUE. --- I don't see the "LOVE" in that!

So your sig with "Thanks for reading. I love you." should probably read: Thanks for reading. FUCK YOU! ... *LoL*


I ain't mad atcha tho!










"I'm so hardcore niggaz take me for granite". - Spontaneous


"if underground means not being exposed, better go on and get your naked ass some clothes" - Dela Soul

It may have been sent twice, with the first one not quite finished because my cat ran across my keyboard.

Thanks for reading. I love you.

"What are you but my reflection, who am I to judge or strike you down?" - MJK

In Rotation:
Organized Konfusion - OK
Fiona Apple - When The Pawn
Jimmy Smith - Root Down
OutKast - Stankonia
Tool - Salival
Slum Village - Fantastic Vol II

Hmmm, "An Act of God". Sounds a little cliche, don't ya think? Look, I don't really like the idea of abortion, but I understand that despite the fact that I think killing off an unborn child is wrong, there are times where it would be better NOT to bring the child into a unsuitable enviroment for it's needs(like say a couple concieved a child when they were close to dirt poor, or something to that effect). Or what about those unfornate souls who end up pregnant after they've been raped? You think their child is going to live a full and happy life? How would you feel if everymorning you woke up and saw the child of the man who raped you? So I'm not for or against abortion, I just understand there are times when it might be useful. peace.


_________________________________________________________________

"Astex, hardcore like ass sex"
-Astex

"Run on the track like Jesse Owens/ broke the record flowin/ without any knowin/ that my wordplay/ run the 400-meter relay/ it's on once I grab the baton from the DJ"
-Gza

"We're going to learn to hear words with vowel, A sound...I be that analog arsonists, aiming at your arteries, all seeing, abstract, analyze everything, adding on, absolutely abolishing, average amateurs arsenal just astonishing"
-Blackalicious

Well Itzcoatl, maybe it does sound cliche, but an act "Act of God" can mean anything from a hurricaine to an earthquake --- And from a miscarriage to a brain aneurysm, so my point is, if the miscarriage wasn't self~induced, then indeed it is an act of God.

I'm sure there are many circumstances under which ONE would feel that a child shouldn't be brought into this world --- But there are also "history impacting people" who've made a difference in this world because they WEREN'T aborted, although at the time of their conception & birth, they would have been considered "Better Off Dead" or never born, based on their situations, environment or living conditions.

However, under certain circumstances, I definitely feel it might be necessary to terminate a pregnancy --- But not because of carelessness or lack of responsibility.


~WORD~









"I'm so hardcore niggaz take me for granite". - Spontaneous


"if underground means not being exposed, better go on and get your naked ass some clothes" - Dela Soul

>I dont
>see how people can be
>claiming that abortion is murder
>when miscarriages happen all the
>time and for reasons that
>arent the mothers fault.

You don't see how purposely ending the life of another human being is murder?


I am pro-life and personally i get very angry when I hear women say things like "You're a man so you have no say" or "You wouldn't know what it's like cuz' you're a man" They act like just because i am a man, i have no opinon, thoughts, convictions or voice. They might as well as "You're a nigger so you have no business attending school" I believe that abortion is murder. how big of a role the government should have over an individuals body-i still don't know because i don't too much like the government of the united states. My problem with abortion is that it implies that the women somehow has greater rights than the baby. And i have a problem with one group of people who feel that by nature they are superior to another group-whether it be whites oppressing blacks, men opressing women, people who are unfair to those who are disabled, and even women who feel they are superior over a baby that they feel isn't technicaly alive. No one has the "RIGHT" to end another persons existence. By the way...i'm not for the death penalty (usless dude kills like 127 people)


PLAY ON... PLAY ON...
Props 2 my Fam...The Badd Azz Muthafuckaz
Brainchild
Da Knife
Restlesspoet
Sonlight

Ya'll Know tha Motto Murder on that Azz!!

"I heard a hoe say Ice Cube's her favorite rapper...so i had to smack her" -Common (Sense)

"Crack iz back in tha hood" - Andre 3000

Your replies were well put. Thank you. You said what I cannot express sometimes. "****"



(0-0) *four eyes*

----------------- A sig for the New Year --------------------

My 1st ryhme!!!
Okaypeeps, please listen up!

I'm rollin through this joint, to say whassup
Salutations to my people who can't get enough
Of me
Listen my rap and I'm sure to deliver
I come colder than ice, makin' other rappers shiver
Dulce is loose and on the prowl,
Cats hear my rap, confessin'
I'm guarenteed to stick around a while.
Brotha, when I am through with you,
you'll keep comin back,
bringin your best friends too
I'm sarcastic and full of funk,
Knockin other bitches off and puttin they
bodies in my trunk
I'll make you scream and holla for more,
I be the woman you adore
Yo, so tell your chick ...she got to go!
Makin you scream and holla for mo!
Chickens can't match my smooth flo
I'll hit you off and you'll be beggin me to stop
Sexin your man, waitin for my cherry to pop
I don't need to follow you
Or your crew
I'm a leader makin' others come under my rule
So bend ya knees, bow ya head to the queen
Makin sure you never even get close
to Dulce, the Supreme

BOYYYYYYYEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!! *hugging myself*

~Brought to you by Bambozzled Entertainment Television (BET)

> You don't see how purposely
>ending the life of another
>human being is murder?

How is it that you get to dictate the definition of "life" for everybody? It is still hotly contested whether a fetus is a viable, living entity until about the sixth month of pregnancy. Until the matter is finitely decided and backed with concrete scientific (not religious) proof, then the fact is women deserve a choice...

>
>
> I am pro-life

You mean "anti-choice," because I am "pro-life" to the extent that I believe every child has the right to be loved, needed, nurtured, provided for, and above all, wanted. What is "life" without these elements? Come on, give me your best philosphical analysis.

>and personally
>i get very angry when
>I hear women say things
>like "You're a man so
>you have no say" or
>"You wouldn't know what it's
>like cuz' you're a man"
>They act like just because
>i am a man, i
>have no opinon, thoughts, convictions
>or voice. They might as
>well as "You're a nigger
>so you have no business
>attending school" I believe that
>abortion is murder.

I wonder if you like it when white folks tell you how you should behave and what you should believe in regards to race and discrimination. Face it, you don't know what it's like to carry baby. Nor do you know what it is to have the burden of being solely responsible for doing so. It's just like white folks who, no matter how they try, will never, ever fully understand the struggle of being black in America. I define "white privilege" as the choice to not be conscious of race, or not to be conscious at all. Pregnancy is a way in which men can use their "male privilege" in that, if a male helps conceive a child, at any point in time he can pick up and leave...whether he will or he won't is another issue, but the fact is he has the CHOICE. It's funny how brothers seem so clear-headed when it comes race, but will stand on a sister's neck with the same patriarchal bullshit that he complains about suffering under the power of the white male. I think it's completely ignorant for people to advocate getting rid of abortion WITHOUT addressing the underlying social, political, and economical sexism that makes abortion a reality in this day and age. Do you think it's just a coincidence that abortion happened to become such a big deal during the Women's Liberation Movement during the late 60s and early 70s? Right-wing Christians bombing clinics and shit, when they're the same cats who make a woman feel like she's a sinner to have a child out of wedlock...same thing with the Muslims (Nation of Islam folks included because I heard Farrakhan give a speech about a woman choosing a "good man to lie down with," but he failed to mention the responsibility of that "good man" to only lie down with someone he wants to be committed to as well). Men have successfully turned preganacy and femalehood into a liability in order to continue to subjugate women, just as "blackness" is a liability in a white world. It's hard enough for women to compete with men in the market, imagine how much more disparate that would be if every woman that was pregnant had a child. This world is not designed for women with children to do well for themselves and be self-sufficient so that they can provide for their children, plan for their children in a way that those children deserve. For people like you the solution is "Well, these women should close their legs then." Why aren't men ever admonished to keep their dicks in their pants?

Maybe when there is actually some modicum of gender equality and women are treated the same and have the same opportunities regardless of having children, maybe then abortion won't be needed as a way of equalizing the playing field. You're against abortion, but are you willing to relinquish your male privilege to help women in their struggle for equality?

Regardless of all of this, my primary feeling is that a woman has the right to choose whether she's ready for motherhood the same way a man gets to choose if he's ready for fatherhood. He has the choice to walk away (and there are many who do), why shouldn't she?

My problem with abortion
>is that it implies that
>the women somehow has greater
>rights than the baby. And
>i have a problem with
>one group of people who
>feel that by nature they
>are superior to another group-whether
>it be whites oppressing blacks,
>men opressing women, people who
>are unfair to those who
>are disabled, and even women
>who feel they are superior
>over a baby that they
>feel isn't technicaly alive.

Women don't "feel" that a fetus isn't technically alive. It's been proven. In standing against abortion, without even addressing the other political issues involved in a woman's choice, you are standing for every sexist institution that continually beats women down, just for being women. You don't believe in men oppressing women, but that's exactly what you are advocating. Your are revelling in your male privilege and forcing women to "stay in their place" and the hypocrisy of brothers who claim to be for the cause makes me sick.

>No one has the "RIGHT"
>to end another persons existence.
>By the way...i'm not for
>the death penalty (usless dude
>kills like 127 people)

No one has the "right" to tell a woman what to do with her body, especially when women are not adequately represented in the law-making bodies of this country.


>"I heard a hoe say Ice
>Cube's her favorite rapper...so i
>had to smack her" -Common
>(Sense)

Maybe I just wasted my breath, this quote really shows me that you are "down" for the cause of women's advancement...right...



rhonda

>>"I heard a hoe say Ice
>>Cube's her favorite rapper...so i
>>had to smack her" -Common
>>(Sense)

Maybe I just wasted my breath,
>this quote really shows me
>that you are "down" for
>the cause of women's advancement...right...

You have got to be kidding me... You don't know me or nothing about how i feel about the cause of women's advancement. First off if you don't like the quote then your problem is with Common. If i recall Common had a song called "Retrospect for Life" that gave his views on the abortion issue. But then again, he's a man so he doesn't know shit. And he smacked a women on his new album so he must hate women. How about you don't make assumptions about me and after you read this you can write a letter to Common and tell him how he is sexist and oppresses women.


>How is it that you get
>to dictate the definition of
>"life" for everybody? It
>is still hotly contested whether
>a fetus is a viable,
>living entity until about the
>sixth month of pregnancy.
>Until the matter is finitely
>decided and backed with concrete
>scientific (not religious) proof, then
>the fact is women deserve
>a choice...

I don't feel that I get to dictate the definition of "life". I just feel that the word concieve, by definition means begin. So based on that i feel that life begins at conception (whether we recognize it as our definition of life or not)


Right-wing Christians bombing
>clinics and shit, when they're
>the same cats who make
>a woman feel like she's
>a sinner to have a
>child out of wedlock...same thing
>with the Muslims (Nation of
>Islam folks included because I
>heard Farrakhan give a speech
>about a woman choosing a
>"good man to lie down
>with," but he failed to
>mention the responsibility of that
>"good man" to only lie
>down with someone he wants
>to be committed to as
>well). Men have successfully
>turned preganacy and femalehood into
>a liability in order to
>continue to subjugate women, just
>as "blackness" is a liability
>in a white world.
>For people like
>you the solution is "Well,
>these women should close their
>legs then." Why aren't
>men ever admonished to keep
>their dicks in their pants?
>
Well if Christians are bombing abortion clinics and killing people...that would be murder. I think i've stated that i'm not cool with murder. As far as the male role in this I do think that brothaz should keep it in their pants. But if we had better education and community responsibility then many of these abortions would not be necessary. So we need to look at ourselves in the mirror. If more people were waiting to have sex until they were in a committed relationship(high school does not count)Then pregnency and abortion would be something they would be talking about and would be clear on. Maybe my moral views are starting to show through, but i feel sex is for 2 committed people as is pregnancy and child raising.. If brothaz would stop trying to fuck everything with a vagina then the problem would indeed start to remedy itself.

> You're against abortion, but
>are you willing to relinquish
>your male privilege to help
>women in their struggle for
>equality?

Yeah...

>Women don't "feel" that a fetus
>isn't technically alive. It's
>been proven.

So you are the spokesperson for all women now??

>In standing
>against abortion, without even addressing
>the other political issues involved
>in a woman's choice, you
>are standing for every sexist
>institution that continually beats women
>down, just for being women.
> You don't believe in
>men oppressing women, but that's
>exactly what you are advocating.
> Your are revelling in
>your male privilege and forcing
>women to "stay in their
>place" and the hypocrisy of
>brothers who claim to be
>for the cause makes me
>sick.
>

When did i say anything about women staying in their place. I don't think that being pro-life is beating down women. I am 100% for women to be free of the oppression that they have faced by the hand of males for so long. And you were right in stating that we need more women in positions of power. But everything has a balance. I also did not go in depth about the social conditions that make abortions sometimes neccessary. I dont think a women should have to be forced to carry a child that she had no say in the conception of (Rape) and i don't think that women should have to carry a child if her life is in danger. The society in which we life is bullshit. But i don't think niggaz should be killing each other over tennis shoes, no matter what the socail conditions are. I don't think niggaz should be fuckin' up their communities by selling crack. But then agian i'm not a drug dealer so i should have no say in people fuckin' up my neighborhood right? Whatever makes you feel good just do i guess is the motto for some.
>
>No one has the "right" to
>tell a woman what to
>do with her body,

When there is another person is in your body you have the "moral" duty(assuming you have morals) to provide teh best possible invironment for the child. No drinking, no smoking, and no killiing the child also.

PLAY ON... PLAY ON...
Props 2 my Fam...The Badd Azz Muthafuckaz
Brainchild
Da Knife
Restlesspoet
Sonlight

Ya'll Know tha Motto Murder on that Azz!!

"I heard a hoe say Ice Cube's her favorite rapper...so i had to smack her" -Common (Sense)

"Crack iz back in tha hood" - Andre 3000

>You have got to be kidding
>me... You don't know me
>or nothing about how i
>feel about the cause of
>women's advancement. First off if
>you don't like the quote
>then your problem is with
>Common. If i recall Common
>had a song called "Retrospect
>for Life" that gave his
>views on the abortion issue.
>But then again, he's a
>man so he doesn't know
>shit. And he smacked a
>women on his new album
>so he must hate women.
>How about you don't make
>assumptions about me and after
>you read this you can
>write a letter to Common
>and tell him how he
>is sexist and oppresses women.


No, I'm not kidding. Even Common can slip up, that quote is not indicative of beliefs in equality. And for your information, I didn't like that little interlude on his album either...he also had Slum Village using the word "bitch," which shows you that he can be a hypocrite, ("I'll never call you a bitch or even my boo...") the same way you or I can. (By the way, I think Common's tight, but by far not perfect...not that you're saying that...I just wanted to make myself clear). This shit is supposed to be funny? Would it be exceptable for white folks to make fun of slavery? In my opinion, the answer is no, and I don't think it's very entertaining for a man to make fun of hitting women either. And there are some women who buy into it too. It's all totally ridiculous and hypocritical. Moreover, did I say that you hate women? You can be sexist without "hating women" just as you can be racist without "hating blacks." Get the semantics right to avoid confusion.

>I don't feel that I get
>to dictate the definition of
>"life". I just feel that
>the word concieve, by definition
>means begin. So based on
>that i feel that life
>begins at conception (whether we
>recognize it as our definition
>of life or not)

First of all, I firmly believe that you can be pro-choice and anti-abortion, meaning that you wouldn't want your woman to have one, but you wouldn't tell others what their choice should be. When you label yourself as pro-life, you send the message that, not only would you not make the choice for yourself, but that you would force everyone to adhere to the same choice, i.e. supporting the overturning of Roe v. Wade, which made abortions a recognized right under one's right to privacy...jurisdiction over one's own body, legal talk, yadda, yadda, yadda. If you are like most pro-lifers, you would like to see legislation that prohibits abortion, and this is what I have a contention with. I think that everyone's entitled to their own moral convictions, but when someone is trying to impose those beliefs (moral and religious convictions) on me and what I do with my body, that's when the line is drawn. If you keep your own beliefs within your sphere of action, wherein your actions only affect you, than that's cool with me. But, if you want other people to adhere to your moral convictions, you need to come up with something better than the way you "feel." I'm saying that in a country where religious freedom is supposed to be the creed, the first amendment protects the woman's right to choose because it bars the enforcement of laws specifically based on religion, which a ban on abortion would be.


>Well if Christians are bombing abortion
>clinics and killing people...that would
>be murder. I think i've
>stated that i'm not cool
>with murder.

My goal with that example was to point out the contradiction of a "pro-life" stance. The same people who shame a woman for making the choice to keep her child, are the same people who want to ban abortion...

>As far as
>the male role in this
>I do think that brothaz
>should keep it in their
>pants. But if we had
>better education and community responsibility
>then many of these abortions
>would not be necessary. So
>we need to look at
>ourselves in the mirror. If
>more people were waiting to
>have sex until they were
>in a committed relationship(high school
>does not count)Then pregnency and
>abortion would be something they
>would be talking about and
>would be clear on. Maybe
>my moral views are starting
>to show through, but i
>feel sex is for 2
>committed people as is pregnancy
>and child raising.. If brothaz
>would stop trying to fuck
>everything with a vagina then
>the problem would indeed start
>to remedy itself.

I agree with you 100% on this tip, but I still think that the vocabulary through which we discuss abortion is terribly sexist, and we need to get passed talking about it in this manner. What manner, you ask? The manner in which women are crucified for any choice they make...whether she chooses to be a mother or not. We need to change up the way we address abortion by addressing the surrounding issues of institutional sexism, and for women of color, institutional racism, as well as classism. But nobody wants to do that. You didn't do it in your first post. And if you had these views underneath, (male responsibility, etc.) I wonder why they weren't the first things you typed. You should wonder that too...Women who choose to have abortions are made into scape goats for issues that go deeper that whether a woman terminates her pregnancy or not.

>
>> You're against abortion, but
>>are you willing to relinquish
>>your male privilege to help
>>women in their struggle for
>>equality?
>
>Yeah...
>
>>Women don't "feel" that a fetus
>>isn't technically alive. It's
>>been proven.
>
>So you are the spokesperson for
>all women now??

Wait, you were the one who went there first, but, respect, i should have said "Some women who have abortions don't "feel" that..." But, it's true and you didn't refute it...It's a scinetifically valid assertion that a fetus is not "alive" until about the sixth month. If you can disprove this outside of a religious context, then go for it. Otherwise, there is absolutely no ground on which to constitutionally validate a ban on abortions.
>
>>In standing
>>against abortion, without even addressing
>>the other political issues involved
>>in a woman's choice, you
>>are standing for every sexist
>>institution that continually beats women
>>down, just for being women.
>> You don't believe in
>>men oppressing women, but that's
>>exactly what you are advocating.
>> Your are revelling in
>>your male privilege and forcing
>>women to "stay in their
>>place" and the hypocrisy of
>>brothers who claim to be
>>for the cause makes me
>>sick.
>>
>
>When did i say anything about
>women staying in their place.

You don't have to say it. It's implicit in the pro-life stance. Especially among those who do not address the issues surrounding abortion.

>I don't think that being
>pro-life is beating down women.
>I am 100% for women
>to be free of the
>oppression that they have faced
>by the hand of males
>for so long.

So you don't think that a bunch of old white men on Capital Hill making laws about how a woman should live her life is furthering the systematic oppression of women? Men have made the rules in this society and abortion is a part of the game if women want to be allowed to play. These, of course, are the same men who are morally repulsed by abortion, but will not make laws that effectively protect women from abuse, rape, or other socially ills that disproportionately affect women.

.And you
>were right in stating that
>we need more women in
>positions of power. But everything
>has a balance.

What do you mean by "balance"?

>I also
>did not go in depth
>about the social conditions that
>make abortions sometimes neccessary.

Why not? Why didn't you address those issues at first...this is more of a rhetorical question, but you may want to evaluate why the social conditions didn't come up first in this conversation.

>I
>dont think a women should
>have to be forced to
>carry a child that she
>had no say in the
>conception of (Rape) and i
>don't think that women should
>have to carry a child
>if her life is in
>danger.

Why not? I find this a contradiction in the pro-life stance. Most pro-lifers argue that the fetus is a child and that it should not be murdered because it's a precious life. What makes a child concieved through rape any less precious than a child concieved through love? A life is a life, or is it not. If it is true that the woman's life isn't more valuable than the child's, why shouldn't a woman carry a baby to term regardless of the risk to herself? If she dies, she dies. It's God's will. Her life is not worth any more than the child's, right?


>The society in which
>we life is bullshit. But
>i don't think niggaz should
>be killing each other over
>tennis shoes, no matter what
>the socail conditions are. I
>don't think niggaz should be
>fuckin' up their communities by
>selling crack. But then
>agian i'm not a drug
>dealer so i should have
>no say in people fuckin'
>up my neighborhood right? Whatever
>makes you feel good just
>do i guess is the
>motto for some.

You can have your say in anything, but understand that your opinion is invalidated TO A CERTAIN EXTENT because you are not there. You didn't answer one of my original questions...do you like it when white people tell you how to act when it comes to race in America? How about when they say, "What's the problem? Just forget about the past and move on"? Is their opinion on being black in America as valid as a black man or woman's? Notice, I didn't say that it wasn't valid at all...I just asked is it as valid. I would argue no, just for the simple fact that the white has no clue what it is to deal with the pressures of being black 24-7? Same thing goes for the male/female dichotomy. You shouldn't think that your opinion isn't valid at all, but don't think you can be the defining voice in the debate.

>
>When there is another person is
>in your body you have
>the "moral" duty(assuming you have
>morals) to provide teh best
>possible invironment for the child.
>No drinking, no smoking, and
>no killiing the child also.
>
You are assuming that the fetus is really another person, without any proof. Again, with stuff like this you just can't go on how you "feel"? Everyone has their own morals, I'm just not down with folks telling me what I can't and cannot do with my own body, especially when I have science on my side. As for my "moral duty," what if I had no means to support a child? Which moral duty supercedes the other: My duty to have the child or my duty to provide for it? Think about this in the context of women in the Third-World, where over-population and impoverishment go hand in hand?

Sorry if I was at all disrespectful in this post or the last one (I tried to tone it down a bit this time around). This is a topic that is very close to me, and it incites a lot of passion. I just see a lot of contradictions in the traditional pro-life stance, and I feel that anyone who is truly ready to push of the yokes of racism, sexism and classism would be able to see those contradictions too. However, this is not always true, and I know that. Much love and respect

rhonda


>PLAY ON... PLAY ON...
>Props 2 my Fam...The Badd Azz
>Muthafuckaz
>Brainchild
>Da Knife
>Restlesspoet
>Sonlight
>
>Ya'll Know tha Motto Murder on
>that Azz!!
>
>"I heard a hoe say Ice
>Cube's her favorite rapper...so i
>had to smack her" -Common
>(Sense)
>
>"Crack iz back in tha hood"
>- Andre 3000

Thanks to Pocahantas and Sonlight for taking the time to write all of that. My question is for Pocahantas.

How is it scientifically proven that the child is not alive until birth?
And by how I mean what tests have been done that you might know about?

I realize this question evades what you see as the more important issues like sexism for example, which by the way have really opened this male's eyes to a whole other side of the issue, but I just had to ask (please don't think my question is loaded, I really am curious)

if your fingers are tired of typing, please refer me to any other websites that might have this info

I won't be offended if you don't respond, I'll just look on my own

Well, here's an excerpt from the late Carl Sagan's last book, Billions and Billions : Thoughts on Life and Death at the Brink of the Millennium. In my opinion, Carl Sagan was one of the greatest scientists of our time:

"Despite many claims to the contrary, life does not begin at conception: It is an unbroken chain that stretches back nearly to the origin of the Earth, 4.6 billion years ago. Nor does human life begin at conception: It is an unbroken chain dating back to the origin of our species, hundreds of thousands of years ago. Every human sperm and egg is, beyond the shadow of a doubt, alive. They are not human beings, of course. However, it could be argued that neither is a fertilized egg.

In some animals, an egg develops into a healthy adult without benefit of a sperm cell. But not, so far as we know, among humans. A sperm and an unfertilized egg jointly comprise the full genetic blueprint for a human being. Under certain circumstances, after fertilization, they can develop into a baby. But most fertilized eggs are spontaneously miscarried. Development into a baby is by no means guaranteed. Neither a sperm and egg separately, nor a fertilized egg, is more than a potential baby or a potential adult. So if a sperm and egg are as human as the fertilized egg produced by their union, and if it is murder to destroy a fertilized egg--despite the fact that it's only potentially a baby--why isn't it murder to destroy a sperm or an egg?"

"So, if only a person can be murdered, when does the fetus attain personhood? When its face becomes distinctly human, near the end of the first trimester? When the fetus becomes responsive to stimuli--again, at the end of the first trimester? When it becomes active enough to be felt as quickening, typically in the middle of the second trimester? When the lungs have reached a stage of development sufficient that the fetus might, just conceivably, be able to breathe on its own in the outside air?

The trouble with these particular developmental milestones is not just that they're arbitrary. More troubling is the fact that none of them involves uniquely human characteristics--apart from the superficial matter of facial appearance. All animals respond to stimuli and move of their own volition. Large numbers are able to breathe. But that doesn't stop us from slaughtering them by the billions. Reflexes and motion are not what make us human.

Other animals have advantages over us--in speed, strength, endurance, climbing or burrowing skills, camouflage, sight or smell or hearing, mastery of the air or water. Our one great advantage, the secret of our success, is thought--characteristically human thought. We are able to think things through, imagine events yet to occur, figure things out. That's how we invented agriculture and civilization. Thought is our blessing and our curse, and it makes us who we are.

Thinking occurs, of course, in the brain--principally in the top layers of the convoluted "gray matter" called the cerebral cortex. The roughly 100 billion neurons in the brain constitute the material basis of thought. The neurons are connected to each other, and their linkups play a major role in what we experience as thinking. But large-scale linking up of neurons doesn't begin until the 24th to 27th week of pregnancy--the sixth month."

My argument is that a fetus is not viable (cannot live on its own) until at least the sixth month. As Sagan argues, the fetus does not become distinctly human until then. Until the sixth month, the fetus is a "potential human." This is the school of thought that most scientists and medical doctors subscribe to. You can go to the link on the bottom of this message to read his entire chapter 15 which is devoted to this subject. Pro-choice or anti-choice, everyone should check it out. He talks about the blatant contradictions of a society that slaughters everyday, but insists on the "personhood" of a bunch of cells that are not distinctly human anyway. He also addresses the moral, ethical, and religious aspects of abortion. Actually, Sagan articulates the sexist, racist, and classist nature of banning abortion more succinctly than I ever could.
Glad I could present to you a side of the issue you've never seen before.

http://www.2think.org/abortion.shtml


But let me just say that I know that this debate can go on and on, but I just haven't heard a good argument against abortion that: 1)isn't within a religious context, or 2)addresses the political implications for banning abortion in a effective way that bars sexist, racist, or classist connotations. If you have one, I'd be more than happy to see it. Again I strongly believe that everyone has to right to hold to their own moral convictions. That's why I'm pro-choice.

rhonda

How many pro-lifers out there are foster parents?

Let's be real here: what happens to these unwanted children? If the mother & father of the child don't want him/her, who is going to take over the tasks of raising & nurturing this child to become a productive, healthy human being? The state? Hell no. Some get lucky, but plenty wind up getting shuffled thru the system their whole lives.

L.

PURPLE REIGN!!!!!!!!!!! CONGRATS RAVENS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"There are no atheists in foxholes" (c) Any Given Sunday

I <3 Freestyle!!

"if and when blind, you will hear/drops of water reflecting off your skin/
the subtle bounces magnified into drum pounding/gateway splitting, roaring and consuming, yet soothing/echos of your losses" ~~jesmar

"some(t(hing) -o) m(o(t(ivate) -he) ) -ind t(o never stop) -hinkin' and c(reating) (-ause) -reat(i(on) -s) l(ife and)ife is reproduced th(rough) fresh (-houghts) -hat c(ome, when you let ) -reativity find you.." ~~Giovanni

"I'm from the land where a man who calls himself Jesus and drives a stolen car" ~~SayNoGo

"how can she sing/holy songs/'bout baby jesus/and mary/and not come/and save me from choking/on sweet youth mixed with mildew/that keeps clinging to my memories/cause this ain't the first time/grandma forget to save me and/my momma forgot to save me.../just always said "jesus wants you to save your flowers"/but my jesus forgot to save me too" ~~beyond_levels

http://www.crooklyndodgers.com/ohsonappy/006/

me.
http://www.ohsonappy.com

I'm just curious to hear how you feel about abortion and Dr.Laura's twisted (I guess that shows how I feel about her) views? Unfortunately I'm kinda on the fence as far as where I stand on abortion. I mean I think it's completely up to the woman, but @ the same time there is another life involved ya know...My best friend has had several abortions and the first time I didn't have a problem w/ it, because it was early in the pregnancy and she was young, but when it becomes a method of birth control I have to take a differnt stance...

That's all for now...

It was one of those days when it's a minute away from snowing and there's this electricity in the air, you can almost hear it, right? And this bag was like, dancing with me. Like a little kid begging me to play with it. For fifteen minutes. And that's the day I knew there was this entire life behind things, and... this incredibly benevolent force, that wanted me to know there was no reason to be afraid, ever. Video's a poor excuse. But it helps me remember... and I need to remember... Sometimes there's so much beauty in the world I feel like I can't take it, like my heart's going to cave in. -Ricky Fitts

Uncertainty excites me...who knows whats going to happen?Lottery or car crash or you'll join a cult -Bjork

Do you know what "nemesis" means? A righteous infliction of retribution manifested by an appropriate agent. Personified in this instance by an 'orrible cunt... me! -Brick Top

AIM: Delaney2010 ...I'm fast asleep now

and i actually take issue w/ ppl who become offended when they hear "killing ur baby." b/c that is what u do, abortion is the termination of a life.


Poems are bullshit unless they are
teeth or trees or lemons piled
on a step. Or black ladies dying
of men leaving nickel hearts
beating them down. Fuck poems
and they are useful, wd they shoot
come at you, love what you are,
breathe like wrestlers, or shudder
strangely after pissing. We want live
words of the hip world live flesh &
coursing blood. Hearts Brains
Souls splintering fire. We want poems
like fists beating niggers out of Jocks
or dagger poems in the slimy bellies
of the owner-jews. Black poems to
smear on girdlemamma mulatto bitches
whose brains are red jelly stuck
between 'lizabeth taylor's toes. Stinking
Whores! We want "poems that kill."
Assassin poems, Poems that shoot
guns. Poems that wrestle cops into alleys
and take their weapons leaving them dead
with tongues pulled out and sent to Ireland.

~Imamu Amiri Baraka~ excerpt frum "Black Art"

RudeGirl/Virgo.

as I always say in these discussions.

everyone has the right to formulate their own moral rights and wrongs surrounding abortion, but that does not, in my opinion, give anyone the right to make the PROCEDURE itself illegal. Would we make heart surgery illegal to people w/ bad eating habits?

on a personal level, to each his/her own. but I don't think it should be a legislative/legal/government issue.

L.


PURPLE REIGN!!!!!!!!!!! CONGRATS RAVENS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"There are no atheists in foxholes" (c) Any Given Sunday

I <3 Freestyle!!

"if and when blind, you will hear/drops of water reflecting off your skin/
the subtle bounces magnified into drum pounding/gateway splitting, roaring and consuming, yet soothing/echos of your losses" ~~jesmar

"some(t(hing) -o) m(o(t(ivate) -he) ) -ind t(o never stop) -hinkin' and c(reating) (-ause) -reat(i(on) -s) l(ife and)ife is reproduced th(rough) fresh (-houghts) -hat c(ome, when you let ) -reativity find you.." ~~Giovanni

"I'm from the land where a man who calls himself Jesus and drives a stolen car" ~~SayNoGo

"how can she sing/holy songs/'bout baby jesus/and mary/and not come/and save me from choking/on sweet youth mixed with mildew/that keeps clinging to my memories/cause this ain't the first time/grandma forget to save me and/my momma forgot to save me.../just always said "jesus wants you to save your flowers"/but my jesus forgot to save me too" ~~beyond_levels

i don't think that being anti death penalty and prochoice is always hypocritical. (but then i also think IT'S possible to be prolife and prochoice at the same time)
those are both broad terms with many people of both camps being in disagreement

i'm not sure if abortion is murder if A women doesn't beLIEve that the baby is alive yet. WE should not condemn "her" for actions done out of ignorance

others out there may HAVE better opinions, and obviously there are more distinctions withen the issue, but that's just my thought. (conveint for me , huh)

self CONTROL people

"some may same i'm fence sittin, but i'm breakin walls down"
- myself

check for subplot

I am PRO-CHOICE. I am LIBERAL.

I don't think being pro-choice and anti-death penalty is hypocritical. Being pro-life and frequently executing people is a bit questionable.

I believe there should be some reform in prison systems and that there is a proper time for the death penalty (such as McVeigh).


The thing I don't get is the Pro-Lifers who shoot up abortion clinics (John Salvi, here in MA) and kill mother and "undeveloped fetus"... and the people who verbally abuse these women because they "care" about the unborn life. If they truly cared... where were they before the woman got pregnant?


This is essentially a women's rights issue.
I support a woman's right to choose.
I just hope they make the choice for the right reasons.




(((krutch)))(((2000)))

I believe that the woman should choose whether or not she should get an abortion. I also think that the potential father should at least have some sort of influence in the woman's decision. However, when you start using it instead of wearing condoms, or taking the pill, that's when I think that it gets kind of fowl.

Peace
Rex

To me a woman should be able to do whatever she wants to do to her body. Abortion is not so much a right and wrong issue. What if woman has been raped? What if the mother is not suitable to raise the children? Has anyone heard of overpopulation? I myself believe abortion is wrong and is the taking the way of life or possible life, but as a man I will never tell a woman what to do with her body. I say that no one should have children we should just adopt. There's no need to bring anyone else into this world when there are plenty of parentless children that need our help. peace out

it all depends on when you believe life begins.

I believe the soul enters the body with the first breath. AS such, a 1st or 2nd trimester abortion isnt murder in my mind. But as soon as the fetus is able to take that breath on its own, abortion should be happening, because you actually have to prevent the fetus from breathing i.e killing it.

so in my views, those that are pro-life and pro death penalty are hypocritical to me. but like i said, it all depends on when YOU believe life begins. I dont think politicians have any goddamn business tryin to legislate restrictions on the entire country based on their miscontrued "morals"


That gentleman has arrived there, and hopefully he is not as stupid as he seems, nor as mafia like his background makes him appear - Castro

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I'm powerful, beautiful, exellent (c) John Forte

Against stupidity, the gods themselves contend in vain - Friedrich Schiller

crazy haitian\|/ayisyen fou/|\loco haitian\|/pazzesco haitian/|\verrücktes haitian\|/louco haitian/|\aim

themesongin it bringin the pain to apollo kids

bush is one of these people, but that's another issue. This is my opinion on abortion, i don't give a rat's ass if it's "killing" a child or not. why? what happens if the child is born and given up for adoption? possibly left in the system for years and at the risk of abuse as well as emotional and behavioral problems.

what happens if the child is kept by biological parents who didn't plan pregnancy? possibly child will have to witness parents being abusive with one another. child may have to deal with pops not being there and mom blaming kid for her "miserable" life.

i see it like this, the WOMAN alone will have to deal with the physical, emotional & spiritual consequences of having the abortion. I am not saying it's right or wrong what i am saying is it's none of our damn business and women deserve to have the option of terminating a pregnancy or not.

i'd rather a child be aborted than brought into a fucked up situation. i'd rather a child be aborted than to have to deal with either of the scenarios mentioned above.

if we're so concerned about the child then look at how being born will affect the child not how being aborted will.


QuOTeS 4 tOoDay...WEEK/DAY... whatever my mood


roads are for journey's, not destinations - chow yun fat (anna & the king)

Am I anti-american? no- the american government is.
*KoalaLove*

"no one tells you about being no artist man, on career day" - jane

...you are the syfl to my ollie
me to don

abortion IS the termination of a life before it is born into the world. i'm not going to run away from that fact. but every woman should have the right and ability to do so whenever she believes it is necessary.

abortion is more a political than moral act. morality is a controlling mechanism used to induce whatever feelings needed to make a society run as planned. this society never planned for women to have total control of their destinies and continues to fight it to this day. this is a pretty anti-life world we got going on right here. to enforce the idea that every pregnancy must be carried to term sort of defies all logic. ya might want to do something about all the other madness going on first. make this place a little more baby friendly (enough clean food, safe housing, no police) and you'll probably see much shorter lines at the clinics.

the ability to decide if a life will or will not be brought into the world, when and how often gives women tremendous power. probably the greatest power there is. and therein lies the fucking debate. who controls that power!

I figured that since I have discussed everything but the real topic of this post, I might as well address it. First, considering that the Earth is already (and continually) overburdened by the exponential growth of the human population, abortion is an unfortunate necessity. Just ask China cause the rest of the world is heading in that direction. Or we could pray for plagues and wars. Its really too bad, cause kids are the only decent thing we have going for us considering that adults get more corrupt and more evil with age.

Thanks for reading. I love you.

"What are you but my reflection, who am I to judge or strike you down?" - MJK

In Rotation:
Organized Konfusion - OK
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Jimmy Smith - Root Down
OutKast - Stankonia
Tool - Salival
Slum Village - Fantastic Vol II

Abortion is a real icky issue because, there are certain circumstances where it seems as if there is no other coice ie: rape.

However, In this day in age I don't like saying Im "pro-choice" because for the most part it means that I concent to a woman and a man commiting an irresponsible sexual act without having to deal with the outcome. Giving a woman and a man permision to act irrisponsibly and terminate a child because of "incovienece."

I do think that abortion is a personal issue that should be discussed between a woman and a man and has no place in government issues. And I hate to offend any one but im sure this will...Two wrongs don't make it right, just because a man CAN "walk away" don't mean a woman SHOULD "walk away". And how about getting to know your mate before you have sex so that "walking away" is not a Major concearn.

What people need to do is realize that the purpose of sex is for creation, the reason it feels so good is to make folks do it to encourage the survival of our species. If you adamently don't want to procreate...consider either not having sex, or poisoning your body with birthcontrol pills and IUDs.

If you do have unprotected sex, make sure it's within a real relationship and not some fling...and deal with the outcomes responsibly. Don't go around having abortion, after abortion, talking about it was an accident. You both knew exactly what you were doing when yall first started doing it.

I am allowing myself one abortion in my lifetime because when I willingly have unprotected sex with someone there is no excuse for abortion, because I knew exactly what I was doing when I was doing it. (I've been pregnant once and currently have a son)

In life NOTHING is guarenteed so being finacially stable can change into dirt poor over night, having two good parents in the home can change to having one not so good parent. This world is not the sweetest place to be, even if you do have money and two loving parents in the home. Abortion should be used carfully and not abused there will always be a "reason" to have an abortion. Abortion should not be outlawed but we should act more responsibly.