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Topic subjectrevolution: what are you fightin' for?
Topic URLhttp://board.okayplayer.com/okp.php?az=show_topic&forum=22&topic_id=19236
19236, revolution: what are you fightin' for?
Posted by guest, Thu Jan-18-01 12:06 PM
So many afros..and not enoughs missions...

Whats your purpose, goal, and mission in the revoltuion?

Sum seek "equality".
Sum seek human respect.
Sum seek segregation.

What are you fighting for?


beyondbeinbought
-----
http://www.sheflypaper.com





19237, RE: revolution: what are you fightin' for?
Posted by guest, Thu Jan-18-01 12:14 PM
"CURSING ME LIKE HAM CUZ I'M ORIGINAL AND YOU LIKE THE KING JAMES VERSION." Talib Kweli

goal, purpose, mission; all one in the same...

...to end western culture, civilization, and memory from the face of the earth.

DENMARK VESEY

An ex-slave of a slave trader, he knew the wickedness of slavery and that man was not meant to slave for man. It got to the point where Vesey couldn't bear to have a white person in his presence. He was very outspoken with his hatred for YT. When slaves bowed to YT in the street, he would rebuke them. When the slaves replied, "But we're slaves," Vesey would reply, "You deserve to be slaves." An infamous quote of Vesey was when he said, "We are free, but the white people here won't let us be so; and the only way is to raise up and fight the whites." One of his plans was to takeover of arsenals, guardhouses, powder magazines and naval stores in Charleston, South Carolina, but, he too, was betrayed by a house negro. Vesey and 5 of his aides were hanged on July 2, 1822.


19238, Wow...
Posted by alek, Thu Jan-18-01 12:45 PM
>goal, purpose, mission; all one in
>the same...
>...to end western culture, civilization, and
>memory from the face of
>the earth.


Hmmm. Good to know _peace_ is such a high priority.

Maybe I should just stay off OkayActivist around MLK Day. I can't stand to read stuff like this alongside the writings of a tolerant, enlightened, inspiring visionary.

Alek

____________________________
"All I want is the truth,
just gimme some truth."
19239, RE: Wow...
Posted by guest, Thu Jan-18-01 01:20 PM
"CURSING ME LIKE HAM CUZ I'M ORIGINAL AND YOU LIKE THE KING JAMES VERSION." Talib Kweli

hahahaahahahahahahaha :) that was cute!

DENMARK VESEY

An ex-slave of a slave trader, he knew the wickedness of slavery and that man was not meant to slave for man. It got to the point where Vesey couldn't bear to have a white person in his presence. He was very outspoken with his hatred for YT. When slaves bowed to YT in the street, he would rebuke them. When the slaves replied, "But we're slaves," Vesey would reply, "You deserve to be slaves." An infamous quote of Vesey was when he said, "We are free, but the white people here won't let us be so; and the only way is to raise up and fight the whites." One of his plans was to takeover of arsenals, guardhouses, powder magazines and naval stores in Charleston, South Carolina, but, he too, was betrayed by a house negro. Vesey and 5 of his aides were hanged on July 2, 1822.


19240, All I can say is...
Posted by alek, Thu Jan-18-01 01:30 PM

...I hope you're taking me seriously. That type of philosophy (in my opinion) has so much wrong with it.

Alek
____________________________
"All I want is the truth,
just gimme some truth."
19241, RE: All I can say is...
Posted by guest, Thu Jan-18-01 01:58 PM
"CURSING ME LIKE HAM CUZ I'M ORIGINAL AND YOU LIKE THE KING JAMES VERSION." Talib Kweli

i don't philosophize, I AM. what's wrong with it?

DENMARK VESEY

An ex-slave of a slave trader, he knew the wickedness of slavery and that man was not meant to slave for man. It got to the point where Vesey couldn't bear to have a white person in his presence. He was very outspoken with his hatred for YT. When slaves bowed to YT in the street, he would rebuke them. When the slaves replied, "But we're slaves," Vesey would reply, "You deserve to be slaves." An infamous quote of Vesey was when he said, "We are free, but the white people here won't let us be so; and the only way is to raise up and fight the whites." One of his plans was to takeover of arsenals, guardhouses, powder magazines and naval stores in Charleston, South Carolina, but, he too, was betrayed by a house negro. Vesey and 5 of his aides were hanged on July 2, 1822.


19242, Let's start with the obvious...
Posted by alek, Thu Jan-18-01 02:53 PM
Here's your "mission:"


>...to end western culture, civilization, and memory from the >face of the earth.

Okay...now who does this remind me of...you know that guy...oh shit what's his name....I almost have it....Oh yeah:

Adolf Hitler.

What you're describing is called GENOCIDE. The erasure of a people, their lives, culture, memory. Now, I wouldn't consolidate "western civilization" into one people, but that makes it all the more scary (and by the way, _you're_ "western civilization" too, so I hope you have somewhere good to hide from yourself).

You should try the PolPotActivist board.

(and I never sign off this way, but I think you need it...)
Peace.

Alek

____________________________
"All I want is the truth,
just gimme some truth."
19243, This is more than a little harsh...
Posted by alek, Thu Jan-18-01 02:56 PM
...sorry. Especially in the light of some of your other posts. If you explain better what you're talking about (i.e. if you mean western corporate power, or economic/environmental imperialism), maybe I can respond with a little more relevance.

Alek


____________________________
"All I want is the truth,
just gimme some truth."
19244, RE: This is more than a little harsh...
Posted by guest, Thu Jan-18-01 03:22 PM
"CURSING ME LIKE HAM CUZ I'M ORIGINAL AND YOU LIKE THE KING JAMES VERSION." Talib Kweli

>>i.e. if you mean western corporate power, or economic/environmental imperialism

there's a much longer list than this.

if you live in America: open a magazine,newspaper, or turn on the tv. better yet ask people what their driving force is in life when you walk outside, then look at what they actually do, eventually the data will point to broad similarities of all, no matter what melting pot idea you may have been told of, and THAT my friend is western culture. to not be able to see this place for it's full grossness means you're a part of it. much like the people in the matrix that never woke up, had Neo or Mopheus just walked up and said it, the populace would've never believed them or maybe even called them Hitler for wanting to crash it!!!

(oh my god was that last part good!, yeah you liked that, didn't you Solarice! hahahaha)

DENMARK VESEY

An ex-slave of a slave trader, he knew the wickedness of slavery and that man was not meant to slave for man. It got to the point where Vesey couldn't bear to have a white person in his presence. He was very outspoken with his hatred for YT. When slaves bowed to YT in the street, he would rebuke them. When the slaves replied, "But we're slaves," Vesey would reply, "You deserve to be slaves." An infamous quote of Vesey was when he said, "We are free, but the white people here won't let us be so; and the only way is to raise up and fight the whites." One of his plans was to takeover of arsenals, guardhouses, powder magazines and naval stores in Charleston, South Carolina, but, he too, was betrayed by a house negro. Vesey and 5 of his aides were hanged on July 2, 1822.


19245, Yup.
Posted by alek, Thu Jan-18-01 05:40 PM

>>>i.e. if you mean western corporate power, or economic/environmental imperialism
>
>there's a much longer list than
>this.

There certainly is. I'm going to have to say "baby with the bath water" on this, though. Unless you somehow separate the social *constructions* (i.e. greed, apathy, etc.) from the essences of society, you're just going to annihilate everything. Whatever, I doubt this will mean anything to you, since it seems like you've wedded everything that's wrong in our society to that society itself. And unless you have a whole bunch of tactical nuclear weapons, you aren't going to be able to resolve your problems.

>much like the people
>in the matrix that never
>woke up, had Neo or
>Mopheus just walked up and
>said it, the populace would've
>never believed them or maybe
>even called them Hitler for
>wanting to crash it!!!

I was about to follow you into this _Matrix_ analogy, but then I realized: that was one of the most muddled, useless movies ever made (though it did have some incredible visuals).

Alek
____________________________
"All I want is the truth,
just gimme some truth."
19246, what in tha...
Posted by NSZ, Thu Jan-18-01 08:23 PM
Explain how the mattrix was one of the most muddled, useless movies ever made.. and how it has less use than your average action movie.


'Not merely a concrete test of the underlying principles of the great republic is the Negro Problem, and the spiritual striving of the freedmen's sons is the travail of souls whose burden is almost beyond the measure of their strength, but the name of this land of their fathers' fathers, and in the name of human opportunity'-- W.E.B. Du Bois
19247, Matrix...
Posted by alek, Thu Jan-18-01 10:01 PM

...so much for genocide and the revolution. Okay, let's discuss _The Matrix_.

>Explain how the mattrix was one
>of the most muddled, useless
>movies ever made..

Piss-poor script. Aspirations way WAY higher than the acting, writing, or plot could even come close to. Cheap escapist pop psychology.

>and how
>it has less use than
>your average action movie.

Actually, it has more. Do you know how bad "your average action movie" is? _The Matrix_ was one of the most visually stunning movies I've ever seen. I loved watching it. So in that sense it's useful, but the fact that it tried to "open the minds" of movie-goers through such cheap, cliched devices just pissed me off.

Alek

____________________________
"All I want is the truth,
just gimme some truth."
19248, whoa
Posted by NSZ, Fri Jan-19-01 01:18 AM
you in the film industry? I sense a lot of bitterness.. why did this 'weak' attempt at opening minds piss you off so much? What other examples of escapist pop psychology do you use to gauge the Matrix with that made it scripturally piss-poor?

The Matrix is the shit

'Not merely a concrete test of the underlying principles of the great republic is the Negro Problem, and the spiritual striving of the freedmen's sons is the travail of souls whose burden is almost beyond the measure of their strength, but the name of this land of their fathers' fathers, and in the name of human opportunity'-- W.E.B. Du Bois
19249, Why?
Posted by alek, Fri Jan-19-01 10:53 AM
>you in the film industry?

nope.

>I sense a lot of
>bitterness..

yup. I try, but...

why did this 'weak'
>attempt at opening minds piss
>you off so much?

Well, mainly because it linked the visual gluttony (god, was that movie fantastic to watch!) to gluttony for violence. What the hell is _that_ elucidating for people? "Wake up to the realities of the world...and blow everyone's head off."

>What other examples of escapist
>pop psychology do you use
>to gauge the Matrix with
>that made it scripturally piss-poor?

Well, it's the script that made it scripturally piss-poor. But let's take a movie like "Blade Runner." It's dialogue had real (instead of feigned) grit, and *everything* about the culture was stylized, not just the violence.

>The Matrix is the shit
Listen, I'm not saying that the movie isn't great on some grounds. But they're primarily visual and visceral. Not much for the mind. And what is there for the mind is confused and almost destructive, I'd say.

Alek


____________________________
"All I want is the truth,
just gimme some truth."
19250, RE: Let's start with the obvious...
Posted by guest, Thu Jan-18-01 03:11 PM
"CURSING ME LIKE HAM CUZ I'M ORIGINAL AND YOU LIKE THE KING JAMES VERSION." Talib Kweli

Hitler wasn't as efective as i am going to be...

hush...calm down...don't be scared, it's not going to happen tomorrow you still have time to get some ram's blood. staying on the "biblical" analogy, there have been floods and inundations in stories from past peoples throughout time, replpace genocide with cleansing the planet. from Malcolm X "the white man is in no moral position to say anything, this is like the wolf asking the sheep, or the rapist asking the rapee, do you hate me? no the white man is in no moral position to judge" sounds to me like "you see yourself within the lost, but we can find you brother." -again from Malcolm X. of course it looks bad to those whose methods aren't the same, but it will be effective.

i thought about the whole "i'm western too" thing, and if even a particle of western nature is left within, i will extinguish this body too, much like in Arnold Schwarzenegger in Terminator 2 Judgement Day. God Bless America

DENMARK VESEY

An ex-slave of a slave trader, he knew the wickedness of slavery and that man was not meant to slave for man. It got to the point where Vesey couldn't bear to have a white person in his presence. He was very outspoken with his hatred for YT. When slaves bowed to YT in the street, he would rebuke them. When the slaves replied, "But we're slaves," Vesey would reply, "You deserve to be slaves." An infamous quote of Vesey was when he said, "We are free, but the white people here won't let us be so; and the only way is to raise up and fight the whites." One of his plans was to takeover of arsenals, guardhouses, powder magazines and naval stores in Charleston, South Carolina, but, he too, was betrayed by a house negro. Vesey and 5 of his aides were hanged on July 2, 1822.


19251, Never mind...
Posted by alek, Thu Jan-18-01 05:44 PM
..is what I'm inclined to say. But, for what it's worth...

>Hitler wasn't as efective as i
>am going to be...

Don't start with me.


>i thought about the whole "i'm
>western too" thing, and if
>even a particle of western
>nature is left within, i
>will extinguish this body too,
>much like in Arnold Schwarzenegger
>in Terminator 2 Judgement Day.
>God Bless America

Do you know any movies that don't involve morphing villains?

Alek
____________________________
"All I want is the truth,
just gimme some truth."
19252, You're Terrible
Posted by guest, Mon Jan-22-01 09:18 PM
>>Hitler wasn't as efective as i
>>am going to be...

That's easily the most horrible thing I've ever read on this site.

I hope that I'm misunderstanding you, because if I'm correct in my presumption it would make you a pretty terrible human being . . .

By attempting to be "more effective" than Hitler, you would have to use tactics and commit acts that are more monsterous than his. So, basically, that would make you more of monster than Hitler.

You'd be committing genocide. Which is what slave traders did. Which would put you in the same category as them.

Thank god you'll never be able to accomplish your goals, but if you did, in the end you would wind up dead like Hitler and your friends would be torn limb from limb by angry mobs like Mussolini. Because, you would be taken out of course, it'd be the world versus a bunch of black genocidal fanatics who misdirected their anger when it could've been put to better use.

I'm still hoping I misunderstood you . . .

Just thought I'd throw that in there . . .

Giving you true calcio since 1986

Marinera . . . It's a damn tasty sauce y'all . . .

AIM: Marinera81
MAIL: jonah_b27@hotmail.com

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19253, Don't bother...
Posted by alek, Mon Jan-22-01 09:30 PM
>You'd be committing genocide.


...I don't think he gets what genocide is, or what it means.

Alek
____________________________
"All I want is the truth,
just gimme some truth."
19254, I can't believe..........
Posted by guest, Tue Jan-23-01 06:13 AM
>Hitler wasn't as efective as i
>am going to be...

U are sick

Are u serious, more effective than Hitler, which means you would be commiting Genocide.......I hope this is a joke.

If your not joking, the u will of course end up dead cause u will of course be taken out.






Insomnia
http://members.blackplanet.com/1star/

"Where were you the day Hip-Hop died?-Talib Kweli

"Umm umm umm, ain't that somethin"- Craig G (The Symphony)

"Why do women want to be equal to men when they are already vastly superior,"~George Bernard Shaw





19255, RE: revolution: what are you fightin' for?
Posted by guest, Thu Jan-18-01 12:48 PM

>goal, purpose, mission; all one in
>the same...
>
>...to end western culture, civilization, and
>memory from the face of
>the earth.

thats your "mission"... but (purpose?) why are you fighting for these things? and how will you carry this out?

I am asking.. b/c many scream for revolution.. or say that they are fighting it.. but when asked.. what will be the end result.. they can't answer..

beyondbein...

19256, RE: revolution: what are you fightin' for?
Posted by guest, Thu Jan-18-01 01:51 PM
"CURSING ME LIKE HAM CUZ I'M ORIGINAL AND YOU LIKE THE KING JAMES VERSION." Talib Kweli

>>thats your "mission"... but (purpose?) why are you fighting for these things? and how will you carry this out.

well, why i'm trying, no make that GOING to end western culture should be obvious, if it isn't look for the "WAKE UP PEOPLE" post on this board by searching for it.

"HOW" i'm going to do it, now there's a part i won't answer. being that there has never been a non-violent revolution, the activities associated with what has to be done will certainly be illegal according to the laws of this land. plus "i've seen waaaayyyyy too many bond movies to know you never give the details of your plan no matter how close you think you are to victory." AZRAEL from DOGMA. that and the bootlicker factor here of course.

DENMARK VESEY

An ex-slave of a slave trader, he knew the wickedness of slavery and that man was not meant to slave for man. It got to the point where Vesey couldn't bear to have a white person in his presence. He was very outspoken with his hatred for YT. When slaves bowed to YT in the street, he would rebuke them. When the slaves replied, "But we're slaves," Vesey would reply, "You deserve to be slaves." An infamous quote of Vesey was when he said, "We are free, but the white people here won't let us be so; and the only way is to raise up and fight the whites." One of his plans was to takeover of arsenals, guardhouses, powder magazines and naval stores in Charleston, South Carolina, but, he too, was betrayed by a house negro. Vesey and 5 of his aides were hanged on July 2, 1822.


19257, RE: revolution: what are you fightin' for?
Posted by guest, Fri Jan-19-01 09:38 AM
forgive me if i come across as arrogant, but i'm even trying to understand the point of the post. is it just to challenge (for nothing but the thrill of the challenge) people who claim to be revolutionaries or is ti really to understand revolutionary theory and process? so far the tone feels like the former, which ultimately just translates into utter nonsense. more than that, the shit is counterrevolutionary.

you want to understand what revolution is then study the question. there have been many attempts at summing up what revolutionary transformations in given societies are and there have been many revolutionary movements and wars. some successful, many not. take the time to find out what failed and why. was it the theory itself? was it the ulterior motives of the folks leading the shit up? was it lack of money and support? was it underestimating the strength of the enemy? find out. then find out what succeeded. what was it about vietnam, the vietnamese people, their theory for revolution, thier collective vision for the future, that enabled them to whip the us's ass. and what lead to them having to open themselves up once again to the dictates of capititalsim? is that a failure?

in addition, where is it that anyone can find that a revoltionary transformation leads to chaos. what factors are involved for someone to put forth a revolutionary struggle and then simply assume the position of those who had once oppressed. is that really an automatic result of the people's struggle? in order to galvanize people to do that kind of work and fight those kind of battles, the people willl have to be offered more than 'replace his white face with my black face as your oppressor'. the people will be interested in the total end of any kind of oppression whatsoever and will fight anyone who stands in the way once they are clear on their position and his. case in point, while laurent kabila helped the people get rid of mobutu sese seko in zaire/democratic republic of the congo, the people claimed he was doing the same tyranical shit and began to organize against him. now the brother's dead from a coup of some sort. maybe someone who wanted his chance to do the same bullshit is responsible, maybe the people found someone who was honest and took care of business, we don't know yet. the point is he wasn't right for the goals of the people and they didn't just let it happen.

a revoltuion requires a vision of the society you want to have. it is not an arbitrary act. anything less is not revolutionary no matter what name people try to put on it.

as far as the discussions around western civilization, what makes it so dangerous is its development and sustainment of capitalism. and that shit wasn't initially a personal attack on africans or any other non-whites. if they had enough people or thought that their folks could survive the kind of labor required to build and sustain that system, they would have enslaved their damn selves. and in many instances did. (also add that they needed to clear as many people off these lands -africa, s. america, n.america - in order to have free access to the resources there). the whole northern/western v. southern/eastern dichotomy arose out of their need to justify and continue their tyranny.

one thing i am sure about revolution is that it is a science, it is a thing that can be figured out and done. and it is being studied and practiced daily by people all over the world who want an end to the madness they are forced to endure. it ain't that mysterious, and it's only made so by people who never want to see it happen.
19258, I AGREE
Posted by guest, Fri Jan-19-01 09:53 AM
100%
19259, RE: revolution: what are you fightin' for?
Posted by guest, Fri Jan-19-01 10:20 AM
i agree with what you said about this board being counterrevolutionary, and that it does just seem to create arguments among people who should be working together. i think that revolutionaries do not talk about their plans and goals, they take action to make their goals reality.
19260, not quite
Posted by guest, Fri Jan-19-01 10:50 AM
>i agree with what you said
>about this board being counterrevolutionary,
>and that it does just
>seem to create arguments among
>people who should be working
>together.

i never said the boards were counterrevolutionary. i also don't believe that people should just work together if they are not sure they have a common goal. confusion and chaos are sure to ensue. i think arguments are fine as long as they have a purpose.

19261, i asked b/c
Posted by guest, Fri Jan-19-01 10:54 AM
I started to think about what I am actually fighting for. I don't mean the REASON.. but the end result.

I started thinking.. if my demands were to be meet by the enemy..what would I be asking for? or demanding?

A separate nation?
- Where Africans in america can grow and re-build themselves.

But then.. many issues came in my mind... like "Who will be considered African?"...How will we rebuild our minds, lands, history?.....And is this actually possible?

Reparations?
- in money, education, land, apologies...

But how much is enough? Who will receive the benefits? And who decides what our reparations will be? And if this happens... will our struggle be over?

Equality?
- to have the same advantages as the "majority" in america...

but how can that be ensured? And aren't we pronounced as equal now, and still struggling?

Destruction?
- to kill off the oppressor..and be "free"

What will this prove.. Is it the answer?

If there is no common goal.. then we will end up fighting eachother...and that was my point....

Just seeing what other people were fighting for....

beyondbein

-----
http://www.sheflypaper.com
-----
he ain't have to understand
cause i understood
who i was
already.
19262, what would u replace it with?
Posted by guest, Sat Jan-20-01 02:15 PM
ok if u destroy the old what will the new culture be about?




am i the only okayplayer in iowa?
19263, Truth
Posted by guest, Thu Jan-18-01 12:15 PM
I just want to spread the word and the stories of our people. There has always been the oral tradition in our culture- our stories and history has always been crucial in our development. As an artist I intend to tell as many stories as I can to remind our people not what they should or shouldnt be but what they are and what they are capable of.

K
19264, Yeah...
Posted by alek, Thu Jan-18-01 01:14 PM

RE: your subject. Check out my sig. Of course, Lennon wasn't really a great model, but not really a bad one either.

Alek

____________________________
"All I want is the truth,
just gimme some truth."
19265, fighting for
Posted by guest, Thu Jan-18-01 01:30 PM
justice and equality by means of INTELLIGENCE and not violence.

the american psyche is all fucked. we've gotta heal. eat right. quit complainin and tryin to be like our parents in the sixties...time to take it cyber...time to take it global...we a diaspora yall...time to take it to another level...aint no revolt with guns and blowin up banks and shit like that...intelligence and knowledge is lethal...
19266, There it is...n/m
Posted by alek, Thu Jan-18-01 01:33 PM

____________________________
"All I want is the truth,
just gimme some truth."
19267, RE: fighting for
Posted by guest, Thu Jan-18-01 02:05 PM
"CURSING ME LIKE HAM CUZ I'M ORIGINAL AND YOU LIKE THE KING JAMES VERSION." Talib Kweli

>>intelligence and knowledge is lethal...

yep, i remember Malcolm X saying after being asked if he still advocated blacks carrying guns and starting gun clubs, (this is after the hajj too) and he said that it would on be intelligent that if the government were unable or unwilling to assist in the protection of black people, then blacks SHOULD defend themselves, it'd be intelligent for any man to defend himself.

DENMARK VESEY

An ex-slave of a slave trader, he knew the wickedness of slavery and that man was not meant to slave for man. It got to the point where Vesey couldn't bear to have a white person in his presence. He was very outspoken with his hatred for YT. When slaves bowed to YT in the street, he would rebuke them. When the slaves replied, "But we're slaves," Vesey would reply, "You deserve to be slaves." An infamous quote of Vesey was when he said, "We are free, but the white people here won't let us be so; and the only way is to raise up and fight the whites." One of his plans was to takeover of arsenals, guardhouses, powder magazines and naval stores in Charleston, South Carolina, but, he too, was betrayed by a house negro. Vesey and 5 of his aides were hanged on July 2, 1822.


19268, And there is nothing wrong
Posted by k_orr, Fri Jan-19-01 04:55 AM
with an East Austin gun club.

I have no idea why the current black leaders are so wanting to get guns out of our community. Keep the guns, bring education and opportunity in. The history of gun control laws until just recently has been aimed at keeping weapons out of the hands of African Americans.

one
k. orr
19269, RE: fighting for
Posted by guest, Thu Jan-18-01 02:27 PM
That's cool! I respect your approach, but I have one question. How does one go about fighting for equality? Usually, one fights to gain the upper hand, to gain superiority. A better approach to obtain 'equality' might be to develop resources independent of the current infrastructure.


19270, RE: fighting for
Posted by guest, Thu Jan-18-01 02:50 PM
"CURSING ME LIKE HAM CUZ I'M ORIGINAL AND YOU LIKE THE KING JAMES VERSION." Talib Kweli

>>A better approach to obtain 'equality' might be to develop resources independent of the current infrastructure.

i take 100,000 people to an island group in the south pacific and live finve for a good fine years, totally separate and independant from the rest of the world. doing some environmental studies and research (and hearing the same data from Greenpeace), i find that because of the pollution from industrialzed countries and such, that the planet will be in a condition which will not support life in 100 years. should i wait and sit back and die or try to stop those whose actions are causing the destruction of the planet? Being that they can't stop themselves, i.e. destruction, pollution, consumption being a way of life for them and they WON'T change, should i fight or wait for the inevitable?

DENMARK VESEY

An ex-slave of a slave trader, he knew the wickedness of slavery and that man was not meant to slave for man. It got to the point where Vesey couldn't bear to have a white person in his presence. He was very outspoken with his hatred for YT. When slaves bowed to YT in the street, he would rebuke them. When the slaves replied, "But we're slaves," Vesey would reply, "You deserve to be slaves." An infamous quote of Vesey was when he said, "We are free, but the white people here won't let us be so; and the only way is to raise up and fight the whites." One of his plans was to takeover of arsenals, guardhouses, powder magazines and naval stores in Charleston, South Carolina, but, he too, was betrayed by a house negro. Vesey and 5 of his aides were hanged on July 2, 1822.


19271, RE: fighting for
Posted by guest, Thu Jan-18-01 03:27 PM
I feel you...

I'm just trying to understand what people are saying when they talk about "fighting for equality".

Personally, if I'm fighting, I'm trying to knock a cat on his ass. I don't want to be "equal" to him. In fact, my objective is to completely destroy his urge to do me bodily harm -by any means necessary! If you're fighting someone to be equal to that someone, your probably fighting a losing battle. You might gain some level of respect, but it doesn't mean you'll be provided for.

My idea of revolution is self-empowerment. Empowerment includes the ability to provide for self. I'm not trying to be equal to anybody.








19272, RE: fighting for
Posted by guest, Thu Jan-18-01 03:59 PM
"CURSING ME LIKE HAM CUZ I'M ORIGINAL AND YOU LIKE THE KING JAMES VERSION." Talib Kweli

correct, i could never fight against someone or better yet SOMETHING that could never be my equal. like removing weeds in a garden, why move the plants you want to save into their own little area when the weed will move there too. the weed needs the resources of that area after depleting its own so it will HAVE to move over and takeover the separated group in order to survive. instead of just continuing to move the plants, the wise gardener plucks the weed. s/he doesn't try to reason with the weed to change its nature, or compromise with it, s/he destroys the weed entirely. the word is extinction. it is only sensible. sometimes i think that toomany people have bought into the victory through integration because it's easy versus the intensity needed to rid oneself of a problem entirely. but then again bootlickers never really understood the concept of self-reliance/preservation/respect/determination.

DENMARK VESEY

An ex-slave of a slave trader, he knew the wickedness of slavery and that man was not meant to slave for man. It got to the point where Vesey couldn't bear to have a white person in his presence. He was very outspoken with his hatred for YT. When slaves bowed to YT in the street, he would rebuke them. When the slaves replied, "But we're slaves," Vesey would reply, "You deserve to be slaves." An infamous quote of Vesey was when he said, "We are free, but the white people here won't let us be so; and the only way is to raise up and fight the whites." One of his plans was to takeover of arsenals, guardhouses, powder magazines and naval stores in Charleston, South Carolina, but, he too, was betrayed by a house negro. Vesey and 5 of his aides were hanged on July 2, 1822.


19273, no, no, no
Posted by guest, Thu Jan-18-01 05:15 PM
dont u think "plucking the weeds" will corrupt the souls of the gardeners? As anyone living within Western Civilization can tell ya, years of being the oppressor, slavemaster, murderer, etc. has corrupted the souls of Westerners/whites. Dont u think that the same thing would happen to non-white people if they wiped out/murdered/erased white people? Once all the blood has been spilled and the revolution is over, do you really think it will be that easy to turn off the weapons and the awakened thirst for blood? Do you really think the killing will stop with just Western civilization and not be turned inward on anyone that disagrees with the revolution's majority/leaders?
19274, Westerner does not equal white.
Posted by Solarus, Thu Jan-18-01 05:46 PM
Hotep

All the weeds are white any more. The Western mind has infected many non-whites. The Western mind is what needs to be destroyed. However people will probably be destroyed along with it because because they won't want to give it up.

All Westerners aren't white.
All Whites are Westerners. <- Can this change? MAybe but I haven't seen it yet.

PEace
Solarus

"To be perfect is to lack nothing essential to the whole therefore I AM."-Solarus

"And if I have to dead you, it's only cuz I love you."- Talib Kweli

19275, RE: Westerner does not equal white.
Posted by guest, Thu Jan-18-01 06:48 PM
For the record, I am of European descent (I'll avoid use of the word "white" or "western" for this conversation), which comes with its biases.

I believe that for most of history this "Western mindstate" has mainly been dominant among the rich ruling and middle classes (I use middle class in the historical/bourgeoisie sense, not the AMerican, "were all middle class" sense). Valuing profit and power over human life and the environment, Machivellian leadership, and other tenets of "Western Civilization" have always been exercised by kings, politicians, capitalists, and their supporters. Poor whites in factories, farms, etc. were not usually participants or followers, at least not intentionally. I guess you could say I take more of a Marxist standpoint. This whole Western philosophy scam (i.e. unchecked individualism, capitalism, environmental destruction, etc.) is taught to us all so that we can be good citizens. It is not an innate part of white nature or human nature for that matter. However, nowadays in most "modern, Western" nations this mindstate has affected the masses from top-to-bottom. In most of these nations, people give their implicit approval of Western faults by merely going along with the system and profiting from it. But that still leaves out a whole lot of white people. Many poor whites living in SouthEastern Europe, parts of Ireland, are living a lot like their serf/peasant forefathers. They arent benefiting off of this wolrdwide exploitation of non-Westerners. Should they be wiped out as well?

Also, do you consider Egypt an African civilization? I do. Many so-called Western ideas originated and/or flourished there. You dont think the pyramids were built through volunteer work do you? And how do you think all of the disparate kingdoms of Lower and Upper Egypt were united? For the common good? And what about the vast irrigation canals and agricultural fields that fed the nation? You dont think they harmed the environment? (in my opinion, agiculture was the beginning of the end for the environment). Many cultures in East Asia, particularly China, adhered to some of these violent, exploitative, and harmful "Western" ideals as well.

So-called Western ideals have developed in any society with significant income and power inequality. They justify the status quo. The solution is redistribution (through violent means if necessary) and education.
19276, RE: Westerner does not equal white.
Posted by guest, Thu Jan-18-01 07:02 PM
"CURSING ME LIKE HAM CUZ I'M ORIGINAL AND YOU LIKE THE KING JAMES VERSION." Talib Kweli

>>Poor whites in factories, farms, etc. were not usually participants or followers, at least not intentionally.

WHAT ABOUT RELIGION,PHILOSOPHY,WAY OF LIFE? GIVE ME A GROUP AND I'LL SHOW YOU HOW THEY WERE WESTERN IN BEHAVIOR/ACTIONS.

>>Many poor whites living in SouthEastern Europe, parts of Ireland, are living a lot like their serf/peasant forefathers.

AGAIN THEIR WESTERN BEHAVIOR INCLUDES MANY OTHER NON-POLITICAL ACTIVITIES AND IDEAS. I'LL GET SOME SPECIFICS ABOUT THESE MYTHICAL "NON-WESTERN WHITE SOUTHEASTERN EUROPEANS"

>>Should they be wiped out as well?

YES, moving on...

>>Many so-called Western ideas originated and/or flourished there.

WHICH ONES? specifics, specifics.

>>And what about the vast irrigation canals and agricultural fields that fed the nation? You dont think they harmed the environment?

HOW DID THEY HARM THE ENVIRONMENT? enough conjecture, give me specifics. if you can?

>>Many cultures in East Asia, particularly China, adhered to some of these violent, exploitative, and harmful "Western" ideals as well.

like what specifically?

>>And how do you think all of the disparate kingdoms of Lower and Upper Egypt were united? For the common good?

ERRR?!?! WHAT DOES THIS MEAN?

DENMARK VESEY

An ex-slave of a slave trader, he knew the wickedness of slavery and that man was not meant to slave for man. It got to the point where Vesey couldn't bear to have a white person in his presence. He was very outspoken with his hatred for YT. When slaves bowed to YT in the street, he would rebuke them. When the slaves replied, "But we're slaves," Vesey would reply, "You deserve to be slaves." An infamous quote of Vesey was when he said, "We are free, but the white people here won't let us be so; and the only way is to raise up and fight the whites." One of his plans was to takeover of arsenals, guardhouses, powder magazines and naval stores in Charleston, South Carolina, but, he too, was betrayed by a house negro. Vesey and 5 of his aides were hanged on July 2, 1822.


19277, RE: Westerner does not equal white.
Posted by guest, Fri Jan-19-01 08:53 AM

>>>Poor whites in factories, farms, etc. were not usually participants or followers, at least not intentionally.
>
>WHAT ABOUT RELIGION,PHILOSOPHY,WAY OF LIFE? GIVE
>ME A GROUP AND I'LL
>SHOW YOU HOW THEY WERE
>WESTERN IN BEHAVIOR/ACTIONS.

Let me clarify...I meant harmful Western ideas. Imperialism, individualism, destruction of the environment, capitalism, I know thats very broad but Im at work so I have limited typing time! Of course they have other non-political Western ideals. But why should some of these eliminated? Although Western religions have been used to justify exploitation and murder (as almost ALL religions have) there is nothing wrong with them in theirselves (just their execution historically by the ruling classes). I know that probably opened a big can of worms with that BUT...What about Western foods? Of course the peasantry ate them, but is there anything wrong with that? Western clothes, Western languages, etc. There is nothing intrinsically harmful in any of these things. Should I be wiped out for enjoying a good dish of German sauerkraut?
>
>>>Many poor whites living in SouthEastern Europe, parts of Ireland, are living a lot like their serf/peasant forefathers.
>
>AGAIN THEIR WESTERN BEHAVIOR INCLUDES MANY
>OTHER NON-POLITICAL ACTIVITIES AND IDEAS.
>I'LL GET SOME SPECIFICS ABOUT
>THESE MYTHICAL "NON-WESTERN WHITE SOUTHEASTERN
>EUROPEANS"

See above

>>>Should they be wiped out as well?
>
>YES, moving on...

Why? This is a discussion, not an elementary school test.

>
>>>Many so-called Western ideas originated and/or flourished there.
>
>WHICH ONES? specifics, specifics.
>

Agriculture, imperialism, exploitation, etc. and if you wanna get to some of the less harmful ones, Egytp is the forefather of Greco-Roman religion and architecture.


>>>And what about the vast irrigation canals and agricultural fields that fed the nation? You dont think they harmed the environment?
>
>HOW DID THEY HARM THE ENVIRONMENT?
>enough conjecture, give me specifics.
>if you can?

diggin irrigation canals= uprooting plants, soil and the animals that live off of them

planting crops=once again uprooting plants, altering ecosystem

All of these things harm the environment.

>>>Many cultures in East Asia, particularly China, adhered to some of these violent, exploitative, and harmful "Western" ideals as well.
>
>like what specifically?

Imperialism, exploitation. Power over people. THese were not democratic or socialist nations by any means. They were tyrannic empires. Same can be said about Incans, Mayans, and Aztecs.

>
>>>And how do you think all of the disparate kingdoms of Lower and Upper Egypt were united? For the common good?
>

>ERRR?!?! WHAT DOES THIS MEAN?

It means they used FORCE, COERCION, and VIOLENCE to unite the empire. It wasnt done voluntarily.

The point is, any time and any place a "civilization" popped up, ideas we attribute to Westerners popped up as well.

19278, RE: Westerner does not equal white.
Posted by guest, Fri Jan-19-01 10:59 AM
"CURSING ME LIKE HAM CUZ I'M ORIGINAL AND YOU LIKE THE KING JAMES VERSION." Talib Kweli

>>The point is, any time and any place a "civilization" popped up, ideas we attribute to Westerners popped up as well.

we have GOT to be using the word western in two different contexts, but i'll get to that later.

>>It means they used FORCE, COERCION, and VIOLENCE to unite the empire. It wasnt done voluntarily.

when i say give specific examples, i'm asking for nouns, i.e people, places, dates, specific events. without using the internet and a search engine can you be more specific? or is this generalizing you're doing all you have in your arsenal. it is classic to show examples of "wrong-doing" within every culture to attempt to universalize certain aspects of culture. there is a definite, clear-cut distinction between western and non-western culture. wrong-doings can be found everywhere but western culture perfected it and cannot escape it. to put everyone in the same basket is what the western mind does to try and turn this into a "we are the world" discussion so as to take the spotlight off the real problem, THEMSELVES, this is just the ego trying to defend itself so i understand.

>>diggin irrigation canals= uprooting plants, soil and the animals that live off of them
planting crops=once again uprooting plants, altering ecosystem
All of these things harm the environment.

how did this specifically hurt the environment, don't generalize, give specifics. to answer this question will take serious scholarship, not just stating something which SEEMS obvious given the data one has, data which pertains to observations i'm sure you've witnessed today. the Kemetians(egyptians) wrote about everything under and above the sun, how did "they" see the impact of the canals? as harmful? i mean, eating fruit off a tree impacts the environment, doesn't it? give specifics, specifics. the way western culture has had an impact on the environment can never be compared to what their practices were. come on. western culture has the ability to end life on EARTH, to destroy mankind with weapons created strictly for that purpose. western culture is the concentrated form of wickedness, don't try to pawn it off on cultures which never have and never will reach it's destructive tendencies.

DENMARK VESEY

An ex-slave of a slave trader, he knew the wickedness of slavery and that man was not meant to slave for man. It got to the point where Vesey couldn't bear to have a white person in his presence. He was very outspoken with his hatred for YT. When slaves bowed to YT in the street, he would rebuke them. When the slaves replied, "But we're slaves," Vesey would reply, "You deserve to be slaves." An infamous quote of Vesey was when he said, "We are free, but the white people here won't let us be so; and the only way is to raise up and fight the whites." One of his plans was to takeover of arsenals, guardhouses, powder magazines and naval stores in Charleston, South Carolina, but, he too, was betrayed by a house negro. Vesey and 5 of his aides were hanged on July 2, 1822.


19279, RE: Westerner does not equal white.
Posted by guest, Fri Jan-19-01 12:30 PM

>
>we have GOT to be using
>the word western in two
>different contexts, but i'll get
>to that later.

OK, explain.


>
>when i say give specific examples,
>i'm asking for nouns, i.e
>people, places, dates, specific events.
>without using the internet and
>a search engine can you
>be more specific? or is
>this generalizing you're doing all
>you have in your arsenal.
>it is classic to show
>examples of "wrong-doing" within every
>culture to attempt to universalize
>certain aspects of culture. there
>is a definite, clear-cut distinction
>between western and non-western culture.
>wrong-doings can be found everywhere
>but western culture perfected it
>and cannot escape it. to
>put everyone in the same
>basket is what the western
>mind does to try and
>turn this into a "we
>are the world" discussion so
>as to take the spotlight
>off the real problem, THEMSELVES,
>this is just the ego
>trying to defend itself so
>i understand.

For specific dates and the like Im going to have dig into my books, which I cant do right cuz Im at work and Im under a deadline. Ill get back to you on that one. I'm not trying to universalize wrong-doing. What would be the point of that since its obvious every society has it? Were talking about a higher level of wrongdoing, which not every culture has developed. Of course there is a clear-cut disctinction between Western and non-Western cultures. But, many of these harmful Western ideals are found in other cultures (not all). Many of these problems were around before Western civiliza tion had developed.Western Culture has obviously perfected these harmful ideas. No argument there. But was this perfection instrinsic to the civilization or did it develop through a combination of circumstances (like the European climate and terrain and techonology?). Indo-Europeans from the Caucus region would not have overrun Europe and set off the West's ascension to power if they didnt have an ecosystem that favored wheat (which is more nutritious and easier to store than many other grains), contained metal ores (for weapons, tools, machines), and was native to horses (which were a tremendous advantage in war back in the day). I believe Egypt, China, the Aztecs or any other "civilization" would have perfected their oppression machines like Westerners if they had had the chance to. More on this later, Ill get some specifics.


>
>>>diggin irrigation canals= uprooting plants, soil and the animals that live off of them
>planting crops=once again uprooting plants, altering
>ecosystem
>All of these things harm the
>environment.
>
>how did this specifically hurt the
>environment, don't generalize, give specifics.
>to answer this question will
>take serious scholarship, not just
>stating something which SEEMS obvious
>given the data one has,
>data which pertains to observations
>i'm sure you've witnessed today.
>the Kemetians(egyptians) wrote about everything
>under and above the sun,
>how did "they" see the
>impact of the canals? as
>harmful? i mean, eating fruit
>off a tree impacts the
>environment, doesn't it? give specifics,
>specifics. the way western culture
>has had an impact on
>the environment can never be
>compared to what their practices
>were. come on. western culture
>has the ability to end
>life on EARTH, to destroy
>mankind with weapons created strictly
>for that purpose. western culture
>is the concentrated form of
>wickedness, don't try to pawn
>it off on cultures which
>never have and never will
>reach it's destructive tendencies.

As you said, backing this up will take serious scholarship, so once again Ill get back to you on specifics. However, agriculture is a different than plucking fruit from the tree. Plucking fruit does NOT harm the environment (unless you pluck way too many in a large region at once). Fruits were meant to be plucked. Thats why trees grow them. We eat the fruits, and we shit out the seeds a mile or two away so new trees can grow. Agriculture on the other hand, is not part of the ecosystem. It destroys a section of the ecosystem so we can make a surplus and store more food than we need (which is the advantage of agriculture over hunting-gathering). Of course Western civilization has a greater capacity to destroy the environment. But once again, if another civilzatio nwas running shit right now, do you really think the environment wouldnt be fucked? I guess theres no way to prove that, but thats my opinion. Western society has taken the destructive elements that have been present in many cultures and honed them, perfected them.

Youd be surprised how much we agree. Western society is running shit right now, so of course we should fight it. But I dont think this entails killing all white people and Westerners, nor do i think that all traces of Western society should or even can should be erased, as some of them are clearly beneficial.

I guess this whole argument would be clarified if you laid out what you think these harmful ideals distinct to Western culture are.
19280, Do you need help coming out?
Posted by Solarus, Sat Jan-20-01 08:24 AM
Hotep

I wasn't going to say anything but you really dug yourself into a hole. WHOAH!!


>I'm not trying to universalize
>wrong-doing. What would be the
>point of that since its
>obvious every society has it?

What you universalize are meaning and reasons for why things occur. Parallel actions may happen but were they done with the same intent? Considering that culture values and meanings are different to automatically say certain things were the same is unwise. For example: you said,

>I
>believe Egypt, China, the Aztecs
>or any other "civilization" would
>have perfected their oppression machines
>like Westerners if they had
>had the chance to.

What? Egypt was the dominant culture of its time and lasted for more than 4000 years (well beyond that but this is only according to Western scholarship). When did they ever try to conquer of cultures? Did they ever try to conquer the Greeks who were obviously inexperienced to the world? That is a statement endemic of a Western mind as it tries to universalize Western mentality onto others only to show that "Hey we all would do it." There by making statements like these possible:

>Western society
>has taken the destructive elements
>that have been present in
>many cultures and honed them,
>perfected them.

Or

>But once again, if
>another civilzatio nwas running shit
>right now, do you really
>think the environment wouldnt be
>fucked?

Or

>Western society is running
>shit right now, so of
>course we should fight it.

These statements trivialize the wrongs Westerners. It disallows one from analyzing the Western mind and seeing WHY things are done as they are. What is the Western worldview? How would someone be led to do what Westerners have done? The things occurring now were being done by Westerners BEFORE that had any say on worldly matters. The same mentality of the average American or European can be seen in the writings of Plato or the actions of the Aryans who invaded India. When you universalize as you do it pins the problem on the "tools" such as captialism, racism, apartheid, etc., instead of the "toolmaker" (Western conceptual system). I always get a good laugh when Euro-Americans discuss have evil capitalism is and cry for a socialist revolution, or when these socialists or MArxists same that I am in agreement with their idealogies. Marxism is CRAP!!! Since it is a creation of the Western mind, it can never be properly beneficial to the "people" as it claims to be.


But, many of these
>harmful Western ideals are found
>in other cultures (not all).

Name them.

>Many of these problems were
>around before Western civiliza tion
>had developed.

Which ones?

>But was this
>perfection instrinsic to the civilization
>or did it develop through
>a combination of circumstances (like
>the European climate and terrain
>and techonology?).

It was instrinsic just because of the reasons you stated. A common element that I find interesting on these boards is the discussion of issues that one knows NOTHING about. I won't say this is explicitly a "western" characteristic but it is definitely an "AMERICAN" one. American culture in its educational system and social mores seem to instill in its people that it is more important to discuss an issue despite whether one knows anything about it. I say this because from this statement, you obviously have an ill-defined conception of how a worldview develops and what it is are.

(Note for this discussion: Worldview=conceptual system=thought process. However worldview DOES NOT equal "culture" as that refers to more specific, localized groups).

The initial stages of life in a given environment, with a certain physiology, certain experiences influenced a worldview (as we are discussing beginnings of Western worldview). Thus it would thereby be the dominating factor in how one defines reality or how concepts are defined (conceptual system). Therefore the worldview would pervade the rest of a people's lives (unless it was explicitly and knowingly changed) wherever they move to.

The culture of a people (behavior) is dependent on their environment, experiences and conceptual system (worldview). The conceptual system acts as a filter in which further aspects of life can be defined. For instance, the Eskimos of North America live in a harshly cold environment, however never acquired the characteristics of the European because their non-Western conceptual system was already in line. Their worldview is comparable to that of the varying Native AMerican cultures found in the warmer evironment in the United States. Also, many different cultures of the Bantu-speaking peoples of central and Southern Africa (Shona, Zulu) can be seen as possessing the same inherent conceptual system of the Dogon or Yoruba of Western Africa though their cultures are different and environments may vary from savannahs, rainforests to mountainous regions.



>Indo-Europeans from the
>Caucus region would not have
>overrun Europe and set off
>the West's ascension to power
>if they didnt have an
>ecosystem that favored wheat (which
>is more nutritious and easier
>to store than many other
>grains), contained metal ores (for
>weapons, tools, machines), and was
>native to horses (which were
>a tremendous advantage in war
>back in the day

Okay, well why did Europeans in more "environmentally-friendly" areas persist in trying to dominate and in many cases exterminate other groups who posed no or little threat to their safety. In many cases Europeans were helped in adapting to their new environments but still found the need to control. (see Europeans and indigenous peoples of the Americas, Europeans and Africans, British extermination of Tasmanians, etc.)


>agriculture is a different than
>plucking fruit from the tree.
>Plucking fruit does NOT harm
>the environment (unless you pluck
>way too many in a
>large region at once). Fruits
>were meant to be plucked.
>Thats why trees grow them.
>We eat the fruits, and
>we shit out the seeds
>a mile or two away
>so new trees can grow.
>Agriculture on the other hand,
>is not part of the
>ecosystem. It destroys a section
>of the ecosystem so we
>can make a surplus and
>store more food than we
>need (which is the advantage
>of agriculture over hunting-gathering). Of
>course Western civilization has a
>greater capacity to destroy the

WHAT?! The ONLY constant in this universe is CHANGE. Nature is meant to ADAPT to circumstances however it can be exploited too much until it is destroyed. Environmental damage has been done worldwide, noone is arguing that. However, has this been done knowingly and was it continued? In some cases it probably was. The ancient Meroitic empire of Africa (Kush) fell because of the deforestation of its trees to fuel its booming iron-smelting economy (which was greatly increase, I might add, for an increase in militaristic preparation for its and KMT's foreign invaders (Hyksos, Assyrians, etc.)). However, to assert that agriculture in and of itself harms the environment is ridiculous.

Ecosystems adapt to new circumstances. Added with human understanding and respect for the land, the ecosystem CHANGES but is not HARMED. As a great African griot once said "There is no CULTURE without AGRICULTURE!" Only through agriculture is a large civilization able to flourish. Small groups can survive on hunting and gathering but large numbers of people would only destroy the environment if this were to be the only means of food. The point is that cultures have existed for THOUSANDS upon THOUSANDS of years without significantly destroying the EArth but Western ways have depleted more of the world's resources and caused much pollution in less than 200 years!!!

Then when analyzing reoccurring themes within non-Western and Western culture one can see why. Western culture has always possessed a "man vs. nature" mentality instead of being in harmony with it. This has always been a reoccurring theme Western pop culture (literature, movies). In non-Western cultures there are usually explicit examples of a reverance for the nature. For example, in the 147 Affirmations (Negative Confessions) of MAAT (progenitor of the Ten Commandments), the Kamau (ancient Egytpians) believed that these principles must be met to be virtuous (rewarded in the afterlife): "I have not laid waste to ploughed lands" and "I have not polluted the waters." These principles were just as important to them as violations to humans such as "I have not killed."


Peace
Solarus


"To be perfect is to lack nothing essential to the whole therefore I AM."-Solarus

"And if I have to dead you, it's only cuz I love you."- Talib Kweli

19281, RE: Westerner does not equal white.
Posted by guest, Sun Jan-21-01 06:22 PM
"REAL RECOGNIZE REAL, and even more than that, the fake, they REALLY REALLY recognize REAL!" -BlackThought

>>I guess this whole argument would be clarified if you laid out what you think these harmful ideals distinct to Western culture are.

when you read the posts i made, as Solarus already posted, this war against black and whites came up, also i never made mention of killing ANYBODY at all. so here's one aspect of western culture that is problematic 1) it's ability not to think metaphorically/allegorically/abstractly, ways which spiritual people have obtained informatin about the cosmos for CENTURIES. and 2) upon meeting these abstract concepts, applying an elementary western template on top of it to ATTEMP to understand it all. what happens as a result? you FUCK up and never get it at all. then try to come up with some sorry as substitute like Masonry, Metaphysical Bookstores, and New Age culture clubs to try to convince yourselves of having "understanding". when you apply that template which is the tool you use to get the "closest" understanding possible (still far off the mark though) you universalize it and apply it on a global level. global in the sense that it gets incorporated into the western view of everything which becomes another part of the arsenal used to justify your points which had no sound base in the first place!

how you did it: 1)assuming i was talking about killing people, perhaps because of the word "destroy", you then 2)incorporate that with previous data, i.e. Hitler, a symbol of physical destruction by western standards. 3) seeing this as a means to strenghthen already established belief of me wanting to kill, you then make this statement about a "white on black" war even though race really never applied anywhere in my posts. 4) separating yourself from that war you become a "nonpartisan" observer which gives you a for lack of a better word, a "god" perspective. this allows you to 5) universalize the instances of "evil" which have plagued the world in "every" society. thus making ignorant staments like those you will again attempt to justify on Monday. i've sat back and witnessed this phenomenon so much it's easy to predict it before it even happens. matter of fact, the night i read that i KNEW Solarus was gonna see it and respond like he did so i went home.

DENMARK VESEY

An ex-slave of a slave trader, he knew the wickedness of slavery and that man was not meant to slave for man. It got to the point where Vesey couldn't bear to have a white person in his presence. He was very outspoken with his hatred for YT. When slaves bowed to YT in the street, he would rebuke them. When the slaves replied, "But we're slaves," Vesey would reply, "You deserve to be slaves." An infamous quote of Vesey was when he said, "We are free, but the white people here won't let us be so; and the only way is to raise up and fight the whites." One of his plans was to takeover of arsenals, guardhouses, powder magazines and naval stores in Charleston, South Carolina, but, he too, was betrayed by a house negro. Vesey and 5 of his aides were hanged on July 2, 1822.


19282, To add to what Solarus and utamaroho said...
Posted by guest, Mon Jan-22-01 10:59 PM
the Kemetic (not "Egyptian") people practiced agriculture, but it was not in the sense that westerners do. First of all, there was a balanced exchange with the land. It was give and recieve, unlike western commercial farms which rape the land and exploit it until its nutrients are used up. There was also the use of hanging gardens now called "hydroponics". In this type of system land isn't even used to grow plants and more people can be fed. We as Afrikans did not see the land as a tool to be used and abused. We understand that we are spiritually connected with the land just as we are with each other. Euro-centric thought has discounted the idea of spirit. As a matter of fact, during the early stages of European development they were exposed to hostile environmental factors. This helped to form a distorted world-view, and then with Plato's direction (along with other Greek philosophers) it solidified into the twisted world-view that it is today. A world-view which is hostile and must not only discount anything different from it, but it must also impose itself on those that are not like it. Imperialism is in its cultural essence because the western mind is trained to dichotomize everything. This means to seperate things such as "logic" and "emotion", and once these things are seperated they are not looked at as necessary counterparts to a whole but as two opposing objects. In this opposition one must overcome the other. This already sets the mind in the mode of domination and supremacy, and this permeates all of western cultural thought. This is why western culture has to be done away with because it promotes an irreconcilable need to dominate people and things around you, and so it is dangerous for everyone when that way of thought is allowed to prevail.


"If our education is not about gaining real power, we are being miseducated and misled and we will die 'educated' and misled."
-Amos Wilson, The Falsification of Afrikan Consciousness


19283, RE: no, no, no
Posted by guest, Thu Jan-18-01 05:57 PM
"CURSING ME LIKE HAM CUZ I'M ORIGINAL AND YOU LIKE THE KING JAMES VERSION." Talib Kweli

when you look at a well trained martial artist defending himself against five attackers and doing it well there is a noticable difference from when one sees an untrained streetfigher just swinging away for dear life. there is a peace, a calm that a well trained artist has which controls the fluidity of his movements so that those unrefined movements the streetfighter uses never come to play. it is through refinement that the trained expert gets to that point, not just pure instinctual fighting which the streetfighter exhibits. the result is a well conditioned fighter who can control this "anger/violence". most people are only familiar with unrestrained aggression due to interaction with western culture. if the argument that violence will leave residual violence were true, buddhist monks would have all this pent up aggression and run around beating people for fun(this really doesn't happen contrary kung-fu flicks). one has to calm oneself in order to achieve this level of mastery over aggressive energy, sort of like a hurricane, peaceful center capable of mass destruction. plus my goal is along the lines of more off a defensive offense.

DENMARK VESEY

An ex-slave of a slave trader, he knew the wickedness of slavery and that man was not meant to slave for man. It got to the point where Vesey couldn't bear to have a white person in his presence. He was very outspoken with his hatred for YT. When slaves bowed to YT in the street, he would rebuke them. When the slaves replied, "But we're slaves," Vesey would reply, "You deserve to be slaves." An infamous quote of Vesey was when he said, "We are free, but the white people here won't let us be so; and the only way is to raise up and fight the whites." One of his plans was to takeover of arsenals, guardhouses, powder magazines and naval stores in Charleston, South Carolina, but, he too, was betrayed by a house negro. Vesey and 5 of his aides were hanged on July 2, 1822.


19284, RE: no, no, no
Posted by guest, Fri Jan-19-01 09:07 AM
Good luck accomplishing this kind of discipline with an army large enough to take on the U.S., Europe, Russia, Australia, and all of their inhabitants, as well as the governments of most nations in Africa, Asia, and Latin America, since many are practitioners and defenders of these very Western ideals. What are you going to do after this massive war, which will have ended up in the death of most of the human race (Westerners + everyone that defends/practices their ideals/way of life + some of you soldiers + innocent bystanders) and the destruction of much of the earth and its natural resources (war isnt good for the environment either!)? Good luck reconstructing any kind of livable society.
19285, not looking to be provided for
Posted by guest, Mon Jan-22-01 06:06 AM
looking for self preservation and provision...but that's very difficult in a land that doesn't belong to us in the first place, BUT POSSIBLE. before desegregation, that was very very plausible...it can be redone, but needs to be redone in a current and up to date way...i haven't worked it all out I NEED HELP on this. our psyche is fucked, first and foremost. how i believe we should change is on perspective first. then with a sense of high self esteem across the black american diaspora, there will be an equality that others will feel and respect. i'm not trying to say just turn the other cheek, but it would be counter productive to believe that killing white people and burning their institutions will create the revolution we need to instigate. put it this way, bling blingin and makin ourselves look like sex objects is the exact equal to suicide. image is everyting in the information age. feed off that and reply cuz i got focus and drive, but i need more minds (power in numbers) with me on this...
freedom now.
19286, zackly
Posted by guest, Mon Jan-22-01 05:57 AM
moreso fighting for land...but unfortunately here, blacks fighting for land is like fighting to breathe in an atmosphere with a small level of oxygen. equality in the arts and entertainment, government and politics (for those who still want to compete in that industry), and family: especially this category...i believe we've been brainwashed (the american masses) to believe that a two parent home is optional but not necessary. that is simply not true...a two parent home IS necessary...now whether these parents live in the same SPACE, that's optional. getting back to your question, i mean eqality in a way that's up to date, not how we used to fight for it...we've got to change our perspective of ourselves first for that...but that's just my approach, as you've stated before, and i'm still working on a plan, but a plan indeed...

word. thanks for the look.
19287, Absolutely
Posted by guest, Mon Jan-22-01 09:23 PM
>justice and equality by means of
>INTELLIGENCE and not violence.

Is there anyone out there who can tell me that acts of terrorism would be more effective in reducing racism and discrimination in the US than say: A mass hunger-strike on the steps on Capitol Hill?

Think about it . . .

Just thought I'd throw that in there . . .

Giving you true calcio since 1986

Marinera . . . It's a damn tasty sauce y'all . . .

AIM: Marinera81
MAIL: jonah_b27@hotmail.com

Check out http://www.greatergood.com Help end world hunger, save the rainforest, help stop AIDS in Africa, help children survive in 3rd world countries, stop breast cancer, and give treatment to landmine victims in less than a minute a day! FOR FREE! NO FORMS TO FILL OUT AND NO STRINGS! REALLY!!!
19288, good question
Posted by guest, Tue Jan-23-01 07:50 AM
although acts of terrorism and mass hunger strikes are exact opposites of the same coin: aint no difference...old tactics that worked yesterday may not work today.


19289, Couldn't resist...
Posted by alek, Thu Jan-18-01 05:53 PM

...ask me what I'm fighting for?
I'm fighting to show you what we WRITING for!

Alek

____________________________
"All I want is the truth,
just gimme some truth."
19290, God, Bless the Child
Posted by k_orr, Fri Jan-19-01 04:52 AM
That has his own.

And that's what I'm interested in.

k. orr
19291, its obvious
Posted by DPfan4life, Fri Jan-19-01 10:06 AM
that their are too many white people/uncle toms on this message board



white people only make up 8% of the world

"the differences are like pepsi and coke but both of them are bad for you"-M1 of dead prez on the democrat republican presidential race

Big Boi freestyles, I don't," Dre admits. "Because I think too much. But I'll write one verse that'll crush your whole album."

"these are the times that try a nigga soul population control we waisten time chasen gold they after more than your mind they want your nation as a whole its time 2 take off the blindfold"-Dead Prez

19292, who was this remark...
Posted by guest, Fri Jan-19-01 11:01 AM
intended for?

Just in case the answer is self:

I will assure, brother/sister, that I am not just speaking about a revolution. I am not just wearing the t-shirt..and picking my afro ...just to be hip with the times...

I am doing more than fighting.. I am creating. I am making sure that when we cross paths..and have to fight together.. you are worth giving my life for...if need be.

like I said.. just in case.. this was reflected upon my name.. you know.


beyondbein

-----
http://www.sheflypaper.com
-----
he ain't have to understand
cause i understood
who i was
already.
19293, why is that?
Posted by guest, Fri Jan-19-01 11:13 AM
Considering something like 80 percent of rap albums are bought by whites, what do you expect? Considering whites have beter access to computers and the internet, what do you expect?

Also dont you think it would be good to include at least some whites and some uncle toms in the dialogue to win allies for the cause? Or are they automatic enemies when it comes down to the battle? I know I'm probly an exception to the rule, but as a white man, if there were a war between white and black people, with both trying to eliminate the other, I know exactly where I would be: neutral on the sidelines, disgusted and horrified with the whole damn thing. Say what you want, try to psychoanalyze me all you want, but I know myself, and i know my so-called "whiteness" doesnt mean shit to me.
19294, RE: why is that?
Posted by guest, Fri Jan-19-01 11:55 AM
"CURSING ME LIKE HAM CUZ I'M ORIGINAL AND YOU LIKE THE KING JAMES VERSION." Talib Kweli

>>I know I'm probly an exception to the rule, but as a white man, if there were a war between white and black people, with both trying to eliminate the other

where did this come from? i think DP's statement is one many think but never say, and it's true depending on your standpoint. he might be saying it because of the nature of the posts and gross responses people write. it's sad when you try to discuss a concept and someone with no knowledge whatsoever of the topic just wants to talk and say anything. that type of "freedom of speech" is unrefined and when it comes under scrutiny the person wastes more time tring to defend their bruised egos attempting to justify something they've said. it takes up space, and causes astonishment to those like minds that are actually going somewhere. for example, taking a quote from the matrix and then giving an opinion unrelated to the topic at all, just thrown out there for humor and causing a speedbump against the flow of ideas. then the whole "morphing villians" bit. i'm still waiting on answers to my "specifics" but that may be too much to ask for, huh? p.s. don't use a search engine. if you made the statement, you should KNOW. show and prove.

DENMARK VESEY

An ex-slave of a slave trader, he knew the wickedness of slavery and that man was not meant to slave for man. It got to the point where Vesey couldn't bear to have a white person in his presence. He was very outspoken with his hatred for YT. When slaves bowed to YT in the street, he would rebuke them. When the slaves replied, "But we're slaves," Vesey would reply, "You deserve to be slaves." An infamous quote of Vesey was when he said, "We are free, but the white people here won't let us be so; and the only way is to raise up and fight the whites." One of his plans was to takeover of arsenals, guardhouses, powder magazines and naval stores in Charleston, South Carolina, but, he too, was betrayed by a house negro. Vesey and 5 of his aides were hanged on July 2, 1822.


19295, RE: why is that?
Posted by guest, Fri Jan-19-01 01:20 PM

>
>
>>>I know I'm probly an exception to the rule, but as a white man, if there were a war between white and black people, with both trying to eliminate the other
>
>where did this come from?

DP said he thought there were too many white people. I asked whether white people should be included in this dialogue, or are they automatic enemies in this revolution. My next statement flowed from this and also responded to your call for an all-out was of extinction against whites (which would obviously cause an all out counter-attack ) against blacks by most whites. I was saying that if a revolution to your liking were to go down, I would be neutral. That is all. How is that off the topic?

i
>think DP's statement is one
>many think but never say,
>and it's true depending on
>your standpoint. he might be
>saying it because of the
>nature of the posts and
>gross responses people write. it's
>sad when you try to
>discuss a concept and someone
>with no knowledge whatsoever of
>the topic just wants to
>talk and say anything. that
>type of "freedom of speech"
>is unrefined and when it
>comes under scrutiny the person
>wastes more time tring to
>defend their bruised egos attempting
>to justify something they've said.

I notice you often try to psychoanalyze your opponents (who you dont know a damn thing about) rather than responding to their points. My ego aint bruised. It'll take a lot more than your rants to do that. Attacks on Western society dont really offend me, since I dont care much for it. Your desire to kill millions of people does offend me.


>it takes up space, and
>causes astonishment to those like
>minds that are actually going
>somewhere.

I'm going somewhere, so are you. Im hoping that we'll be going in the same direction, a direction equally beneficial to both of us. But it seems that ignorance (like yours and like most of my fellow whites) may take us both in the wrong direction.

>i'm still waiting on
>answers to my "specifics" but
>that may be too much
>to ask for, huh? p.s.
>don't use a search engine.
>if you made the statement,
>you should KNOW. show and
>prove.
>
As for specifics, im still at work, so please be patient, maybe go outside, go for a walk, go on a date or something. Unfortunately, I dont have internet access at home so youll have to wait till Monday when I get back to work, a computer, and the internet. Sorry for the inconvenience.

19296, Misunderstanding
Posted by Solarus, Sat Jan-20-01 06:46 AM
HOtep

>DP said he thought there were
>too many white people. I
>asked whether white people should
>be included in this dialogue,
>or are they automatic enemies
>in this revolution. My next
>statement flowed from this and
>also responded to your call
>for an all-out was of
>extinction against whites (which would
>obviously cause an all out
>counter-attack >the better term]) against blacks
>by most whites. I was
>saying that if a revolution
> to your liking were
>to go down, I would
>be neutral. That is all.
>How is that off the
>topic?
>

Noone ever mentioned an all-out war between whites and blacks. That came from YOU. The "extinction" was removal of the Western mentality from this planet. This does not necessarily mean the automatic killing of PEOPLE. You grossly assumed this. Also I mentioned earlier that "Westerners" is a term that does not only apply to whites but also non-whites. Therefore the "war" would not even be "WHITES VS BLACKS." You should have searched for the "WAKE UP PEOPLE" post that utamaroho referred to earlier. However I will say in your defense that utamaroho should have explained further what he meant, although I know why he didn't: It's usually a waste of time. I say this because those of a Western mind try their hardest to "universalize" their mentality onto others (like you did earlier). This is a typical characteristic of a Western mentality.

LAstly white people on these boards always make the discussion about "race" instead of actually understanding the Western mentality that sprung from "white" people but was spread to "others". Instead of focusing on the Western worldview, the discussion always becomes "Hey their are good white people too." WTF!!!!!!!!!!!!! This has NOTHING to do with the discussion and only succeeds to digressing from the real issue of the detriment of the Western conceptual system. Instead of completing a self-analysis, one only DEFENDS one's ways. Fuck a "race." That isn't the (only) problem today. To make it plain: Jesse JAckson is MORE of a problem than George Bush. That both have the same goals (promotion of the "American" way), only Jesse JAckson succeeds in trivializing the problem by screaming "RACE," not unlike many white and bootlicking okayactivists do on many of these boards.


PEace

Solarus



"To be perfect is to lack nothing essential to the whole therefore I AM."-Solarus

"And if I have to dead you, it's only cuz I love you."- Talib Kweli

19297, RE: Misunderstanding
Posted by guest, Sat Jan-20-01 10:58 AM
This is a flyer that a friend of mine (he's white, I'm black) gave me a while ago to distribute. typically I e-mail it to people, but I saw it as appropriate here. I will also be posting follow up comments to lot of the things I have read here.



Write Yourself in Next Election!
No One Can Represent You Like You Can!
by Lynx, of east bay Bay Area Anarchist Alliance
(eBAAA!)

When you vote, you give your consent to be governed
by whoever wins that election. When the major
political parties of virtualy every industrialized
nation are so similar - in practice if not what
ideology they claim - is it any wonder that so many
people do not vote at all? The parties are all
similar in that they all claim to represent the common
good. They all claim to have a well worked out plan
that will solve whatever particular "crisis" the local
media is focussing on, and they all claim that using
the power of the state is the only way to solve those
problems. All of these claims are false. All political
parties rely on the flow of capital in order to stay
alive. Because of this they will always be more
responsive to the demands of that capital than to the
voters they claim to represent.
This is unacceptable.
If we want to succesfully change the social dynamics
of our society we are going to have to stop feeding
into the corrupt system that oppresses us. Voting for
a representative will never do that. Top-down systems
of government are inherently flawed. Any program or
reform passed by a government would rely upon the same
state machine that was created in order to help the
wealthy maintain control of the nations economy.
Because of the built in biases of that government
machine, it can never truly act in the interest of
working people. We have to realize that reform from
the inside cannot ever bring us freedom.
Not voting at all is equaly innefective. If we
refuse to participate in the voting proccess, as 60%
of US citizens currently do, our non-participation
can be misinterpreted as apathy, thus giving implicit
consent. It is not enough to simply refuse to
participate in the system, we have to ATTACK the
system by every means possible. We need to take the
tactic of active non-cooperation into their "temple of
democracy" - the voting booth - and show that temple
off for the sham that it is.
Come election day, vote for yourself. It is
possible to participate in the voting process in a way
which not only does not legitimize it, but actively
deligitimizes it. By writing yourself in, you
explicitly deny the validity of representative
democracy and state that you are capable of planning
and running your own life. Democracy is only
democracy when it's direct. So make it direct. No one
can represent you like YOU can.
When large numbes of people begin to write themselves
in we will drastically increase the cost of running
elections and the amount of time involved. If half of
the 60% of Americans that are already making a
statement by their refusal to participate begin to
actively monkey wrench that system, the electoral
college will be forced to give their votes to
candidates who have 30% of the vote - assuming that
everyone who currently plans on voting for the
republicrats continues to do so. The numbers for the
politicians would be even lower if everyone who writes
themselves in takes the maximum amount of time to
register their vote. We are capable of completely
shutting down their puppet show, and we don't even
have to break their laws to do it. This will expose
in clearly unmistakeable terms the dictatorship of the
elite class. From there, we can begin to attack the
system in a manner more consistent with its true
nature, and build a real alternative.

>>>>>>>
The Problem with Democracy
By chris crews

Listening to the radio while returning from work this
evening the announcer was relating the recent Supreme
Court ruling that placed the presidency, by a five to
four vote, into the hands of George W. Bush. Part of
this program included a short clip of protesters who
felt that the Supreme Court ruling was unfair, and
that they would not give up on Al Gore or making sure
that democracy was reclaimed. Reclaim democracy, I
thought to myself? The reverend who's voice came over
the speakers sounded reminiscent of Dr. King, as the
announcer was keen to point out. I couldn't help but
cringe. Here was a political protest and the
participants weren't being gassed or beaten, and the
radio was portraying them as almost patriotic in their
actions. It didn't make sense. The final blow was when
one person on the radio spoke about mending the tear
in democracy after the election debacle. Mend the tear
in democracy, I thought to myself, surely you must be
joking. How can you mend something that doesn't really
exist?
The past month's charades have only reinforced my
convictions that we truly do not live in a democratic
country, regardless of what we claim or preach. In
fact, students in Zimbabwe are studying the U.S.
elections to illustrate that electoral corruption and
politics do not exist only in the so called "third
world". What a grand day that students in Zimbabwe are
studying the faults of the might U.S., last bastion of
democracy and justice!
All this has added fuel to the fire for my brain. Why
do we continue to fool ourselves into this illusion of
participation in our own futures. One only need
listen to the pathetic excuses given my interviewees
as to why they voted this way or that. "Oh, you know,
I thought X would probably be better than Y". "I've
always voted this way, why should I change now?" Then
there is my personal favorite: "If I voted for Z I
would just be wasting my vote". Wake up people. You
can vote for X, Y, and Z, it won't matter. Nothing
will change. This country is no longer run by "we the
people" but now rather by "we the corporate elite". I
know, that's not true. Our vote really does still
matter. No really, it does still matter, right? I
mean, I voted because I think, well, but that's how
we've always done it. Besides, there's no other
alternatives. What do you want, chaos?
This is precisely the logic that I hear every day,
and I am sick and tired of it. This we live in a free
country dribble is making me sick. Yes, we do live in
a freer country than many, but at least there you can
see your chains. Here they are as invisible as spider
webs, and as strong. Oh yes, you are free, as long as
you don't rock the boat too much. Then we'll co-opt
you, or worse. Don't you remember, this country is
still run by the good old boys.

>>>>>>>

We are Anarchists.

This means that we oppose the state, all forms of
oppression, and all illegitimate authority.

What is the state?
The state is the police department, it is the prison
system, it is the INS, it is who you pay taxes to and
who uses those tax dollars - not to educate our
children - but to incarcerate them. The State is a
repressive organization.
Most of the problems in our society are directly
related to the existence of this monster. Whether the
problem is Drugs, lack of work, Police Brutality, food
unfit to eat, no health care, or the diseases they
give us by dumping toxic waste into our water and air;
it is the State itself at the root of the problem. We
survive in SPITE of the government and their attacks
on us, not because of it and its "protection." The
government schools teach our children that we cannot
survive without them, but this is a lie! We are the
PEOPLE! We have existed since the dawn of time and we
will exist long after the last capitalist has been
buried. They need us the way a parasite needs the dog
it feeds off of. We need to be rid of them just as
much as the dog needs to be rid of the parasite. We
prove this every day of our lives. Can you think of
one thing that the government does for you in your
everyday life that is relay necessary for you to Cary
out your everyday activities? The fact is that we,
as human beings with instincts and a will to live
provide for our own basic needs. It is we - the
working people - who grow the food, who harvest the
food, who ship it to the supermarkets, and who
distribute it. It is we who built the factories, make
the clothes, and work in the shops. We spend our days
looking for and working shit jobs that make rich
people richer, and we pay our own bills as best we
can, with only police harassment and intimidation to
help us do it! That is the aid and the "welfare" of
the state! It is a program of humiliation and
BULLSHIT, designed to keep us from rising against
them. We - all of us - do EVERYTHING that needs to be
done, all the government does is disempower and
punish! Their agencies are designed to step in and
police us, humiliate us, punish us, restrict our
freedom, and sap us of our strength and our will to
fight. The state is the institutionalization of
Racism, Sexism, and Homophobia. It exists to maintain
the divisions between those who have and who have not.


How does Capitalism fit into this?
The system we have now is a combination of Capitalism
and Government. The two are so intertwined they are
practically inseparable. The combination of these two
monsters is more dangerous than either on their own
because within this system the rich make the rules
that the state enforces against us. Capitalism is an
inherently greedy system that relies on taking out
more than it puts in - that is the basic law of
Profit. The only way the capitalist system can
continue to exist is if the working class, women, and
people of color are kept disempowered. This is done
by forcing us to work long hours at jobs no one should
have to do - McDonalds, dangerous factory work,
farmworker jobs that expose our people to toxic
chemicals that kill them!) - and making it impossible
for us to leave those jobs or work fewer hours for
fear of starvation. We spend our lives as prisoners,
killing our selves to survive, and making the rich
even richer. If we refuse to work for them the only
other choices are living on the streets, crime - which
tears up our communities, or a degrading and
humiliating system of workfare. Capitalism is built
on exploitation, and it cannot exist without the
divisions of class and race. We produce everything
and they make all the money, and then say that the
reason we don't have money is because we don't work
hard enough! Who works harder, the single mother
working two jobs to feed her children and pay the
rent, or some corporate CEO who gets paid to sit in a
big office and move papers around? Their immense
salaries are stolen DIRECTLY from US! We produce
everything useful, all they produce is oppression and
fear. So why do the police pull people of color over
for driving down the street? They do it because they
are Racists and assume we are all criminals! We are
not the Criminals! It is the Rich that steal from us
EVERY DAY! It is the Rich that destroy our
environment for their own profit! it is the Rich and
their pet police, politicians, and system of
oppression that will kill our entire PLANET if we do
not rise up and stop them! The upper class is a class
of thieves and murderers, and the middle class - the
managers, beaurocrats, administrators - are their
tools. The people of the middle class are not our
enemies, they are oppressed too, but we have to be
prepared to fight them to the extent that they remain
loyal to our oppressors. Anarchism seeks to unify all
our people across all lines of race, ethnicity,
gender, or sexuality. By working together without
giving anyone authority over others and letting people
run their own lives, we can create a world where
everyone has the opportunity to enjoy the things that
all our hard work has created.

Dispelling the Myths:
They say that people are naturally lazy and won't want
to work. the truth is that THEY are lazy and don't
want to work! We - the People - have always worked to
have what we need. In a society where a person gets
to keep the full value of their work there is a
greater incentive to do quality than in this corrupt
system where the boss steals half of what we produce.
Not only that, but when we get to keep the full value
of our labor, we will live better and work far fewer
hours than we do now - maybe four hours a day four
days a week, if that!
They say that without police our people would kill
each other. The truth is that it is their system of
poverty and exploitation that creates crime and
violence. When we all have access to a decent
standard of living, there will be no reason for people
to commit acts of violence in order to survive. The
police don't protect us from each other, they protect
the rich from us and serve as a tool to push us into
prisons where our family members are forced to work to
(you guessed it) increase the profits of rich people,
without even the normal shit wages that a worker
outside the prison receives.
They say that we need the government schools to
"educate" our children. This is pure bullshit. We
all know exactly what kind of education our children
receive in their schools - racially biased tracking
programs, state-mandated indoctrination, police in the
hallways, searches of lockers and backpacks without
reason or warrants, censorship on campus regarding
what students can and can't say, and a curriculum
designed to strip us of our personalities and teach
our children to take orders without asking questions.
In the world we are working to build, schools will be
based on cooperative learning with the teachers acting
as guides to help all our children reach their full
potential. All Students will have full access to good
books that don't distort history to reinforce the
power of some elite, the campuses will be clean and
kept in good condition without having to worry about
funding.
They say that without capitalism and the state we
would be unable to feed ourselves. What they relay
mean is that without capitalism and the state they
would have no way to force us to feed their lazy asses
while we starve! Every year the capitalists destroy
thousands of tons of food in order to keep prices
high, while homeless people starve in the streets!
Every intermediary step that that food goes through on
it's way from the farms our people work to the stores
where we buy it at hugely overinflated prices causes
waste. Not only that, but they take the good food of
the earth and process it and package it and strip it
of it's nutrition so that by the time it gets to us,
it's barely even worth eating any more! Once we have
torn down their system we can reorganize society so
that goods are exchanged directly from one group of
working people to another, without going through
middlemen and letting some fat fuck skim off the top
every step of the way. Not only that, but we can use
urban farming methods to make our cities greener and
grow food right where it will be consumed, and
eliminate the need to ship it across the entire
country and burn fossil fuel that pollutes our air.

Anarchism and AntiRacism
All true Anarchists are working people, and this
system keeps us down because of it. Right now many of
the people who openly call themselves Anarchists are
euro-americans, so even though they are oppressed by
the state they are not as brutally oppressed as people
of color. Something all of us understand is that
until all of our people, regardless of color, are
free; none of us can be free. For this reason many
euro-american Anarchists are committed to using that
little bit of breathing room that the system affords
them because of their color to attack the system in
every way possible. The Race system was created by
rich people to divide us from each other, and in order
for us to dismantle their power we have to first
dismantle the hierarchies of Racism, Sexism,
Homophobia, and all other forms of discrimination. We
wage our battles against the prison system, the
injustice of the courts, the police and their
brutality, against politicians that put all the sewage
plants and incinerators in neighborhoods of color,
against the racism of the school system, and against
the forces of Gentrification that are pushing us out
of our neighborhoods so that rich people can move in.
Anarchism is not identified with any one culture or
race. It is the struggle of all people, and of life
itself, to break through the barriers that would hold
us down and create a better life for our people, our
class, and our families.

Where we Come From:
Anarchism is as old as our species itself. The small
tribes of hunter-gatherers from which we are all
descended were anarchistic in their internal power
structures. Various indigenous peoples from all over
the world have preserved this mode of life right up to
the present time. The Pygmy people of Africa live
without any rulers or significant hierarchies, and
have done so for at least 10,000 years. The Nuer
tribe of Africa - one of the largest on the continent
- is also anarchistic in nature. Most north american
native tribes were also anarchistic, especially
noteworthy is the highly structured but decentralized
federation of the Iroquois League, which served as on
of the basic models upon which the Articles of
Confederation - the US's first constitution - was
built. The difference between the Iroquois and the
Colonies was, of course, capitalism. Because the
Colonies were using a capitalist economic system, the
articles of confederation were eventually scrapped
because they gave power to the local town councils and
to the people, and the big business interests of the
post-colonial US wanted a more centralized powerful
state that they could use to keep the people in check.

Anarchism as a mass movement has several distinct sets
of roots. In Asia the Taoists - who advocated the
abolition of government, harmony with nature, and
community based decision making - are the first
concrete example of Anarchist thought; beginning
around 400 BC and greatly influencing Buddhism, Sunni
Islam, and certain elements of Christian thought. In
Europe the Free Spirit movement, which began around
1200 AD, is the earliest known anarchist movement.
The Free Spirit's were christians who incorporated
elements of Buddhism (and Taoism) into their religious
practices. They denounced the use of money, private
ownership of land, the state, hierarchical churches,
and declared that each person was in fact an
incarnation of God and should thus be the master of
their own destiny. They lasted as a movement for
three hundred years and liberated huge areas of France
before being finally violently exterminated by order
of the Pope. A similar movement was inspired in
Russia by the work of Leo Tolstoy, who declared that
Jesus Christ was himself an Anarchist, and denounced
Capitalism, the Church, and the State as attempts to
limit the freedom of the people. The Tolstoyans were
pacifists, vegetarians, and lived on cooperatively run
communal farms.
Revolutionary Aanrchism's first major incarnation was
in the French revolution within the Paris commune,
later it was reincarnated in Ukraine, Krondstadt, and
Petrograd during the Russian Revolution, during the
Spanish Civil War - when the Anarchosyndicalist labor
Union, the CNT, succeeded in liberating over half of
Spain and was only crushed by the combined forces of
Fascist Spain, Germany, and Italy with backing from US
corporations like Ford and Texaco. - and in Korea
during the Revolution there. Every time the
Communists have sided with the Capitalists, the
Fascists, and the other Archists, and every time
Anarchists have stood solid with the people against
those who would ride the suffering of the poor into
power.
Our movement is currently undergoing our fastest
period of growth on a global scale sine the 1920's,
and we have organized the bulk of the visible end of
the growing resistance to global capitalism. From
urban gardening in inner cities to community
empowerment, from pushing for militant on-the-job
tactics by union members to organizing militant
mass-protests, Anarchists of all colors and genders
are at the very center of the growing movement against
hierarchy and oppression. Marxism has proven over and
over to be a sure path to suicide, capitalism is
obviously not working for anyone but the rich -
Anarchism, with it's emphasis on direct democracy,
accountability, equality, cross-racial unity, and
class struggle; is the singe most viable choice
available for a world in crisis.
Our people have a clear choice. We can sit back and
let the Capitalists and their pet politicians continue
to rape our planet and oppress our people, or we can
stand together against them and all other forms of
hierarchy and oppression. It is no longer a matter of
talk, the survival of our species is at stake. We
don't have any time to waste on Marxist bullshit about
dictatorships bringing freedom, the choice is simple -
Anarchist Revolution or Death by Capitalism.

What Anarchists Want.

We are sick and tired of the mechanized lifestyle that
so many people lead without realizing there is a
better way. We refuse to spend our youth in
classrooms, our strength at shit jobs that produce
crap no one realy needs, and then retire and spend our
last days kept alive by a machine. The entire mode of
life that people in the developed capitalist nations -
especialythe US - lead is a massive waste of resources
and potential.

WE ARE NOT PRODUCTS!

WE ARE HUMAN BEINGS!

WE DEMAND A BETTER LIFE!

We want a world based on local level directly
democratic control of the economy, the workplace, and
the community.

We will destroy the old centralized factory-oriented
modes of production and replace them with smaller
decentralized cooperatively run shops that produce
things that people actually NEED, without harming the
environment.

We will eliminate monoculture mass-farming and replace
it with cooperative community gardens and urban
farming using permaculture and organic farming methods
to grow food where it will be consumed, and eliminate
the need to burn fuel shipping it across the country.


We will eliminate the damns, powerlines, and
combustion generators that are killing the fish, the
birds, the animals, destroying the air the water and
the earth to produce electricity so rich people can
forget to turn their lights off at night, and

We will eliminate the unsustainable forms of
architecture that require the rape of the forests and
the mountains, and replace them with sustainable
communities of homes and shops that produce their own
electricity - this can be done using already existing
sustainable architechture technology - and rebuilding
the infrastructure will allow us to dismantle the
power grid and cut pollution into virtual
nonexistence.

We will eliminate the massive cattle ranches that have
destroyed the ecosystems all over the Great Plains and
the north west, and bring back the buffalo, the wolf,
and the native ecosystems.

We will eliminate the internal combustion engine, the
car, the highway, and the death of the planet that
they are causing; and replace that whole cancerous
mess with a network of electric trains and busses
powered through sustainable means, and supplemented by
bike co-ops.

We will make our workplaces run cooperatively,
directly democratically and without hierarchy.

We will eliminate racism, sexism, homophobia, and
other forms of social hierarchy.

In short, we will create a sane world. A world which
in almost every way imaginable is the exact opposite
of the direction that Archists - left, right, or
otherwise - have been taking our world for the last
10,000 years.

We advocate not a "return" to some mythological
"pimitive" state, but a moving forward past the waste
and destruction of industrial capitalism. The problem
is not science and technology, these are only the
proccesses of learning how to build and create. The
problem is privatised, commodified, technology for
profit. As with everything else the Archists touch,
their greed and power-lust has transformed the quest
for knowledge into a quest for power over others.
We advocate a new technology to help people work
together on an egalitarian basis, a new science based
on the quest for knowledge and truth - free from the
profit motive.

We want to live in good homes, to wear quality
clothes, to know that our children will have enough.
We want access to education, to the great literature,
to art and music.
We want to dance, to sing, to sculpt, paint, and to
create. To live and love to the fullest every moment
of every day and not have our lives stolen from us by
a boss or a master.
We want to breath clean air, drink clean water. We
don't want to have to worry about what chemicals might
be lurking in the soil, in the paint, in the air.
We want to buld all of these things based on
cooperation and solidarity, and leave the coercion and
exploitation of capitalism behind us.
We have no interest in returning to the caves, as the
primitivists would suggest, nor do we have any
interest in the big-brother politics and mass murder
that accompanies Marxist regimes.
We know there is a better way.
We will buld our new world here. Now. We will become
the people we were born to become - free thinkers,
lovers, and fighters; and we will destroy their system
down to the last brick.

>>>>>

an interview with assata shakur:

Question: What advice would you have for activists in
the US?
Assata: (Summary) First of all we need to put real
democracy on the agenda
in the US, because there is no real democracy there
now. To go along with
the notion that there is democracy in the United
States, is like
perpetuating the fairy tale that the emperor has
clothes on. I also think we
need to treat activism as FUN- because it is fun. We
need to develop a
political style that's interesting and fun and
personal. To celebrate
together.


Question: Cuba has been fighting against
globalization. What do
you think the potential for the anti-globalization
movement is?

Assata: I think that the movement against the policies
of the World Bank, of
the IMF, is very important. People are really
beginning to see the
mechanisms of imperialism. When colonialism existed
people could see
colonialism. When racial segregation existed in its
apartheid form, people
could see the "whites only" signs. But it's much more
difficult to see the
structures of neo-imperialism, neo-colonialism,
neo-slavery.

I think that the movement against the World Bank,
against the globalization
process that is happening, is very positive. We need a
globalization, a
globalization of people who are committed to social
justice, to economic
justice. We need a globalization of people who are
committed to saving this
earth, to making sure that the water is drinkable,
that the air is
breathable.

When I was a child, if someone had talked to me about
buying water, I would
have thought it was a joke. If we are not committed to
saving this earth we
will be buying designer air filters and gas masks with
little Nike swishes
on them. (Laughter, applause)

The people who are running this planet are insane-they
are literally
destroying it. I don't know where they think they're
gonna drink water,
breathe air....This planet is a wonderful place, but a
vulnerable place. And
they are making and implementing policies that are
destroying the earth in
all kinds of ways.

The movement against the kind of global assassination
that is going on, in
terms of whole countries-because every African country
is facing an
ecological disaster in terms

of becoming deserts, in terms of fuel-Africa is one of
the richest
continents in the world but its people are the
poorest in the world. A lot
of that poverty is directly related to the policies of
the IMF and the World
Bank. Ending those policies is very important not only
to Cuba but to people
all over the world who want to see their children grow
up and have access to
health care, to live somewhere that is not a desert,
where they can drink
water, where they can breathe air. So I think that
movement against the IMF
and World Bank policies is one of the most important,
most optimistic
struggles that is going on at this moment.

on planning for the future:

Question: In 1965 US President Dwight D. Eisenhower
said the Pentagon was
planning for 100 years into the future. Most of us
don't even plan for 5
years ahead. I don't know how Cuba is coming along
with it's planning. But
most of us are always REACTING to what the world
powers do. What is our
pro-active plan for 5 or 10 years from now?

Assata: I wish (laughs) I had those answers. I believe
that the first part
of planning is to really believe that you can put your
plan into practise.
And I think that one of the problems that exists in
the United States and
in many places in the world is that people don't
believe that they
can make a difference. So a lot of times we're
defeated before we even
start.

We've become consumers of a world vision, of Kentucky
Fried Chicken, of
McDonalds, and we're convinced that Kentucky Fried
Chicken tastes better
than any other thing, or that a hamburger made by
McDonalds is something
special. Other than a piece of greasy meat and some
bread. McDonald's is an
idea we've been sold. on. And we've also consumed the
idea of
powerlessness, of the idea that "you can't fight City
Hall"; of "you can't
change things, the government is strong, that's just
the way things are".

And as long as we continue to have that vision of the
world, the planning of
a better world is going to be a hard nut to crack. So
I think that one of
the things as a step towards the phase that WE plan
years and years ahead is
to actually believe that this world is redeemable,
changeable; that we can
eradicate poverty, that we can eradicate alienation,
that we can eradicate
this tremendous consumerism, this disease that we have
to buy everything
that exists, everything that the television says we
have to have.

We have to have a vision of the world we want to make
in 100 years. And
maybe when we have that vision, when we convince
enough people that that is
a realistic vision, and that the opposite vision is
basically that if we
don't do something in this 100 years, a hundred years
from now this world is
gonna be so destroyed, so raped and ravished that we
won't HAVE much of a
world to save.

Internalizing the importance of this century, and how
much work we have to
do, will give us at least some ways to invent a system
of planning. I think
it's really hard to plan if you don't believe you can
implement those plans.
I have faith in our ability to transform this world
from a hellish reality,
to one that will eventually lead us toward heaven.
(applause).

19298, RE: Misunderstanding
Posted by guest, Sat Jan-20-01 03:03 PM
"CURSING ME LIKE HAM CUZ I'M ORIGINAL AND YOU LIKE THE KING JAMES VERSION." Talib Kweli

NICE POST, some of the part i liked especially were:

>>It is not enough to simply refuse to
participate in the system, we have to ATTACK the
system by every means possible.

the nature of the threat isn't real enough to most people to even see that this is so. sad very sad. i identified with the author on many points especially the whole reverend chicken wing speech. oppressed people always see salvation trickling down from the very thing oppressing them. someone once said, "what has enslaved you can never set you free." yet and still HBCU's and the "talented tenth" producing black institutions tell groom students for that corporate job thinking economic victories mean something. remembering the aforementioned statement i say this "negroes, you were brought here on an economic premise, you think it's going to SAVE you?" geez, damn bootlickers.

>>This we live in a free
country dribble is making me sick.

many would agree with every word said in this post. however, because it actually causes for proactive CHANGING of the very way people are used to living, expect the first bootlicker to read it to attack the whole post, then end in some "love, peace,& happiness" signature. hold up, my bad, that post was too long for a bootlicker to look at, if it isn't a paragraph long soundbite it won't get noticed.

DENMARK VESEY

An ex-slave of a slave trader, he knew the wickedness of slavery and that man was not meant to slave for man. It got to the point where Vesey couldn't bear to have a white person in his presence. He was very outspoken with his hatred for YT. When slaves bowed to YT in the street, he would rebuke them. When the slaves replied, "But we're slaves," Vesey would reply, "You deserve to be slaves." An infamous quote of Vesey was when he said, "We are free, but the white people here won't let us be so; and the only way is to raise up and fight the whites." One of his plans was to takeover of arsenals, guardhouses, powder magazines and naval stores in Charleston, South Carolina, but, he too, was betrayed by a house negro. Vesey and 5 of his aides were hanged on July 2, 1822.


19299, I don't get it
Posted by k_orr, Mon Jan-22-01 06:00 AM
black economic empowerment is what I'm talking about. Who are you talking to?

peace
k. orr
19300, western civilizations
Posted by guest, Sat Jan-20-01 11:22 AM
I think the question of whether western civilazation is primairly responsible for the condition of the world is kind of a silly one, and speaks to the effectiveness of psychological war campaigns. I think that it's blatantly obivous. For example, no one ever speaks of Native American Civiations. Why is this, many of the American Agricultural methods that were adapted later by Enlightment thinkers orginated with the Natives, who through study of the eart (what some might term geolgy, chemistry, meterology, and biology) had developed effective and sure fire ways of cultivating many of the vegtables that are sold and eaten today. They had community structres, that although not as academically dilenated were still complex and intellegnet. In fact, one could dig in the history books (not influenced by western perspective) and find that many of the westerners who lived amoung the natives found themselves adapting (thier culture). Of course, western thinking doens't allow any type of perspective other than it's own (really look at your textbooks) and so that shouold come as no suprise.
One thing that really gets me is that people still argue the "anyone could have done this" perspective which may be true for Japan. It is true that the Mongolian Empire under the leadership of Ghengis Khan conqured lare parts of Asia and Italy. It is true that his army killed many. It is not true that his army subjected teh conqured to centturies of slaery. It is not true that they developed in depth "scienfically supported resons for their inferiority). You need only view the orginal texts of such European writers such as Montisque to know that these men viewed their civialization as superior. At a time when it was NOT established that thier colonies would exist all over the world. Montisque referred to blacks as savages and indians as brutes. He did so with nor regard for the accomplishments of the Natives, of Male, Ghana, and Songhai, or of Egypt. He did so without knowing of the Mayans or the Aztecs. He had littlle true knowledge of the world as it truly existed, but we forgive his ignorance while we simultaneously condmen our own, as in the studies of the revered socioligist and revered legal philosopher the civilizations and accomplishments of darker hued people were trampled over. This is unacceptable, yet it is accepted everyday.

There is no denying the poison of western thinking.

One question that arose was the seperation of the poisons of western thinking from things that are beneficial in it. Let me be clear in saying that a complete decimation of western thinking and culture is pretty much impossibe. we exist now with the Native culture of a thousand years ago, the Greek Culture of two thousand years ago, the african culture of six hundred agos, etc. We are an assimilative speicies, and what we absorb, we typically do not release. Nevertheless, it is not impossible to shed the poisons of western civilization, though it is difficult to determine whether or not that is something we will see in our era. But it is a worthy cause. Much like a grown man still living in his teens, the usefulness of our western "adolencence" is now over. And perhaps what we term revoultion is better refferred to as evoultion, as a speices, I think we owe ourselves that much. I do not necassarily agree with a violent revolution, becasue as long as it is a violent revolution, the real problem (force being the end all be all of power) won't be solved. However, if being capable of being stronger thn someone else is always a possiblity, I pose this question, what should we do should the revolution succed to ensure that centralization of power, deconstruction of cultures, and disinformation cease to be.


This was a lot of stuff, I don't even know if I made sense, but oh well, I shall return.
19301, Power doesn't equal problems
Posted by guest, Tue Jan-23-01 06:54 AM
Power itself is not the problem. The problem is when power lies in the hands of individuals who have a natural tendency (due to their culture's essence) to want to conquer and enslave. The Kemetic civilization lasted for thousands of years and because of the people's world-view, defined by their culture, was itself peaceful they did not do what this western culture has done in it's relatively short period of rule. People of other nations were allowed to come in and study and learn from our culture. We didn't take them and psychologically sabotage their minds in order to subjugate them and use them to build what was ours.

So power itself is not what has this situation so messed up, but the use of that power by those whose aim is already imperialism and exploitation of other peoples. And the use of psychological warfare wasn't something that Europeans just thought of one day in dealing with foreign relations. This had already been cultivated in their culture and was being used on themselves in order for the few to control the many. This was already in place, and so with the introduction of power this did not necessarily change. It just magnified. It grew to include everyone who they came in contact with. Something that Plato realized was that those who are taken in by the State, or society, must be made to think like the State or they will destroy the State. He did not even want poets in his ideal society because the poet would not lock himself into the conceptual reality that Plato constructed.

I would write more, but I've got to go.

Hotep

"...in his strivings for order, Western man has created chaos by denying that part of his self that integrates while enshrining the parts that fragment experience..."
-Edward Hall, Beyond Culture
19302, Fight 4 di yoots!
Posted by nebt_het, Tue Jan-23-01 07:26 AM
i fight spiritual battles daily
my fight is 4 the spiritual revolution
and i can still hyper extend limbs dont get it fucked up!










"stupidity runs" The Goose


People hold on to religion, like a crutch because they can't make it any other way. With religion you stop being responsible for your own actions and blame someone else like God when it's something you like and the Devil when it's something you don't like.






19303, what am I fighting for?
Posted by LexM, Tue Jan-30-01 11:25 AM
I would be happy to see this country live up to what it's had on paper for the last 225 years. Equality, liberty and justice FOR ALL. Regardless of money, power status.

that's what I want.

L.

PURPLE REIGN!!!!!!!!!!! CONGRATS RAVENS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"There are no atheists in foxholes" (c) Any Given Sunday

I <3 Freestyle!!

"if and when blind, you will hear/drops of water reflecting off your skin/
the subtle bounces magnified into drum pounding/gateway splitting, roaring and consuming, yet soothing/echos of your losses" ~~jesmar

"some(t(hing) -o) m(o(t(ivate) -he) ) -ind t(o never stop) -hinkin' and c(reating) (-ause) -reat(i(on) -s) l(ife and)ife is reproduced th(rough) fresh (-houghts) -hat c(ome, when you let ) -reativity find you.." ~~Giovanni

"I'm from the land where a man who calls himself Jesus and drives a stolen car" ~~SayNoGo

"how can she sing/holy songs/'bout baby jesus/and mary/and not come/and save me from choking/on sweet youth mixed with mildew/that keeps clinging to my memories/cause this ain't the first time/grandma forget to save me and/my momma forgot to save me.../just always said "jesus wants you to save your flowers"/but my jesus forgot to save me too" ~~beyond_levels
19304, plagues of ignorance
Posted by guest, Wed Jan-31-01 04:36 PM
fighting for the end of ignorance. ignorance is the ailment that triggers the symptoms of many ills in society. even though im young (in my last year of high school) i feel as though society lacks any true awareness. unless it involves something pretty that glitters, nobody has any regard for it. i see this too much with my generation, many of whom will easily laugh at someone like me who wants the truth, or just disregard me as a radical that is full of shit. they sit in class and continue thier brainwashing with what we are "taught". there are some whose eyes have not been blinded by the glaze of ignorance, but we need to organize and educate. ignorance has infested itself beyond my generation as well, and exists in the government, education, and social systems. the amount is overwhelming, and combating the seductress called ignorance will be a heavy task, especially considering that "ignorance is bliss" to the majority of society. it will definetely be a long progress, but it is worth it. to an extent we are all ignorant, but the level at which many are at now is ridiculous. anybody that is feeling this, miami or not, please feel free to reply.

peace and love.

"if one of us isnt free, then we're all to blame."-talib kweli