The amputation of a child's clitoris.

This practice persists in Africa and certain parts of the Middle East as a means of:

1) Quelling a woman's sexual appetite so that she's is less likely to cheat on her husband.
2) Ensuring that a female is a virgin upon marriage because after her clitoris is amputated her vagina is sewn shut with only a small opening for urination.

In most cases a child's mother has absolutely no say in whether or not her daughter(s) will undergo this hideous operation. The indigenous populations of these countries have been brainwashed over the centuries, into believing that this evil is necessary in maintaining cultural heritage and pride.

I recently saw a documentary where a child, no more than two, was having this procedure peformed WITHOUT anethesia- she screamed a soul wrenching plea, but they didn't (wouldn't) hear her. . .they just continued to destroy that poor little baby's body. In the countries that practice this, the only recourse women have is to flee and seek asylum in another country! They suffer mental, physical and emotional scars well into adulthood. Oftentimes the adult survivors are plagued with chronic infections and vaginal pain and sometimes death.

The Chinese finally banned the almost equally barbaric practice of foot binding in the early to mid 1900's. .

*sigh* I'm actually in tears thinking about this. What, if anything, can be done about this, can't the UN step in or something!!!

#######################################

The UN has already looked into this. It is hard to regulate or get involved with different cultures "rituals" . Believe or not in some parts of the world some women encourage this mutiliation. It is a rite of passage for them a badge of honor .

I don't know if they could really do anything about this except for bring attention to it and hope that the attention will make the people doing it stop.




We love because it's the only true
adventure. Nikki Giovanni

The govertment in many of these countries have banned it but it is in the small villages that it mainly occurs. People in the villages do it because that is the way it has always been, there is no religious or cultural reasons - I read that it the man's power over woman that is the reason women are mutilated.

While I understand your empathy my concern is that there is a thin line between diplomatic and human relations and ethnocentricity. In this case if a culture uses this practice as complying to a very ancient tradition one that both men and women of that culture agree to- who are we (the US) or the UN to say that the practice must be stopped. The most immediate conflict would be that in the states circumsion of males is the norm and I wonder if you saw footage of an infant circumcision (much less an adolescent one) would you be as compelled to challenge your own country's reality much less compel other cultures to morally measure up.

its like- how can we tell them to stop- when we do it too?

Beyond that terms like "barbaric" are insulting considering that this is a cultural tradition that exceeds the history of the barbarian people much less the loaded impression of the term I think its unfair and obviously prejudiced.


K

You cant always trust what THEY show you in regards to other cultures.

K

"Dont believe the HYPE"

I think the barbarism comes in when you see the procedure being done with rusted peices of metal or other sharp objects, uncontrollable bleeding or infection resulting from other unsanitary conditions, and it being done plainly against a woman's will. You're right that we have to toe the line in terms of respecting cultural practices...but when there is clearly a protest that can be made against it by the people who are victims of it, we should honor & try to rectify it.

From what I've heard, there's a code of silence among the women in many of these countries because they have no way out...to refuse the procedure is to be ostracized & called a witch & sometimes killed. So what other options do they have?? Besides, speaking as a woman, there is no merit in cutting a clitoris off other than to ease male paranoia that a woman will continue to be "pure" until she is married off. The practice is demeaning at the least, barbaric at the worst.

Or at least that's how I feel about it.

As far as circumsision...I can't speak intelligently on it, since I don't know a whole lot of particulars. But at the least, I would say that circumsion in the US is practiced under sanitary conditions, it does not demean the male, and it does not remove parts of their sex organs that would influence the way sex feels...all of which happen in femal circumsion to a degree. Sewing up parts of the vagina make urination difficult & painful, and sex is rarely pleasurable to these women.

Also, "city of angels" (on CBS before it was cancelled) handled this topic and I think it was a pretty fair examination of it. I wish I had taped it, since the show may not ever air again...

>I think the barbarism comes in
>when you see the procedure
>being done with rusted peices
>of metal or other sharp
>objects, uncontrollable bleeding or infection
>resulting from other unsanitary conditions,
>and it being done plainly
>against a woman's will.

As for barbarism- my point is I dont think the barbarians had such tools. and certainly didnt perform highly advanced surgical procedures. While this conversation is reasonable and necessary I would like to stay away from the idea that the cultures in question are somehow uncivilized. these same conditions exist in all cultures where health care is practiced- youve had infections its a natural state of human biology. You might have pierced your own ear as a young girl and suffered an ear infection - it doesnt mean you're a barbarian.

>You're right that we have
>to toe the line in
>terms of respecting cultural practices...but
>when there is clearly a
>protest that can be made
>against it by the people
>who are victims of it,
>we should honor & try
>to rectify it.

You couldnt show me any culture that has the liberty of having all of their traditions uncontested. "when there is clearly a protest that can be made against it by the people who are victims of it" there will still be a larger majority in that community that doesnt. "when there is clearly a protest that can be made against it by the people who are" outside of that culture entirely youve got pretty good grounds for ethnocentricity.

>From what I've heard, there's a
>code of silence among the
>women in many of these
>countries because they have no
>way out...to refuse the procedure
>is to be ostracized &
>called a witch & sometimes
>killed. So what other
>options do they have??

I really would encourage you to investigate your sources- if this is the reality surely this is horrible. But Im not so sure this is the absolute truth or even if there is something "we" can do about it morally; especially above and beyond the changes that we should be making of our own customs.

>Besides, speaking as a woman,
>there is no merit in
>cutting a clitoris off other
>than to ease male paranoia
>that a woman will continue
>to be "pure" until she
>is married off. The
>practice is demeaning at the
>least, barbaric at the worst.

In the same fashion circumcision has frequently been discredited as an unnecessary and dibilating procedure nonetheless it has been adopted as an American custom. If we are to claim them demeaning and barbaric from a very small bit of information- then perhaps we should consider our own customs and changing them.

>As far as circumsision...I can't speak
>intelligently on it, since I
>don't know a whole lot
>of particulars. But at
>the least, I would say
>that circumsion in the US
>is practiced under sanitary conditions,
>it does not demean the
>male, and it does not
>remove parts of their sex
>organs that would influence the
>way sex feels...all of which
>happen in femal circumsion to
>a degree. Sewing up
>parts of the vagina make
>urination difficult & painful, and
>sex is rarely pleasurable to
>these women.

You're thoughts on penis circumcision are naive (probably because its not something that you have to contend with)- it most definitely affects how sex feels and psychologists argue that the trauma of any surgery upon birth is detrimental for either sex. We're not seeking to compare the attrocities committed against gender- but to stop the attrocities unilaterally right? If so- we might be better off arguing how circumcision in and of itself must be eliminated.

the thing is we're not- we're only commenting on it as it pertains to the supposedly oppressive customs of another culture. Its ok for us to do it- cuz we do it better?

think about it- can you cut off an infant's foreskin in a way that he'll enjoy it? if he were to be intellectually conscious and permissive of the act would he say "at least they didnt sow it shut." Perhaps the female's endurance of this act is much more extreme but basically cuttin a baby's genital organs is implicitly severe whether its got a winky or woo-woo. sorry


If you level this out objectively the glaring inconsitency is that we do it too- if we are within our rights as a culture to justify it so are they. If we are willing to admit that across the board it is destructive then we're probably on the right path to resolution.

what is a solution if it is not fair

K

Male circumcision can not be compared to female circumcision..not in the least. The are not equivalent procedure, they don't have equivalent results, and they are not performed with equivalent goals in mind. While both have an impact, the impacts are VERY different.

Male circumcision removes part of the foreskin of the penis. While I don't doubt that this causes some pain when performed, nor do I doubt that this causes a loss in sexual enjoyment...the pain & that loss are relatively minor (extremely) in comparison to what happens when a female is circumcised. To equate the two is simply isn't accurate.

Male circumcision was originally performed to encourage less infections by buildup under the foreskin - by removing it. Nowadays, we know how to properly clean a penis, the practice doesn't have to exist, people do it more for religious/aesthetic purposes. If I had a son, I wouldn't want to circumsize him. That being said, I could circumsize my infant son and be assured that 1) its rare that men LOSE the ability to perform sexually without pain because of circumcision. 2) its rare for male children to die due to cicumscision. 3) its rare that sexual gratification CAN'T be achieved because of male circumcision. 4) the procedure is performed on babies rather than preteen children. The risks/problems/suffering associated with male circumcison, while they exist, are far less severe. There are health risks associated with giving a child a measels shot or piercing their ears too but you wouldn't compare those decisions in parenting to giving a child chemo therapy or cutting of their ear for decoration.

We have to be realistic in this conversation.

Female circumcision includes the removal of the clitoris which is mostly responsible for female sexual stimulation & gratification. It often includes the removal of the labia, minor & major, and infibulation where they scrape the vulva & join the remaining sides of the vagina together with suctures leaving a small opening for urine & menstruation. Complications are pelvic infections, genital malformation, delayed menstration, intense pain, ripping & bleeding during sex, and a bunch of obstetric complications including risk of damage to a baby trying to get thru the tiny opening.

Male circumsision & female circumsision do not compare. A better analogy would be penisdectomy where the entire penis is removed.

That

Are you trying to compare these realities or stop them. Like I said- cutting a child isnt a good idea - does it really matter if its a boy or a girl? Why should we allow it to happen under any circumstances if we can readily admit that its not necessary.

Again we have resorted to the idea that their cultural traditions should be impeded because we dont approve of them nonetheless we do the same thing. You're filled with justifications- they's got em too.

unless you're willing to stand by the truth even though it diminishes your justifications- dont expect anybody else to.


Im sorry they cut little girls vaginas, they attack women with machetes in the middle east- things are tuff all over. In the states we infest our women with tragically low self esteem and then judgementally pick them off when they draw logical conclusions from it.

Until we're ready to face OUR problems - we have no business shaking our fingers at theirs - especially if you cant even come to terms with the fact that they dont see them as such.

K

>Are you trying to compare these realities or stop them.

Both. Circumstances require that a person take stock of situations & decide which needs/concerns to take priority. That's how life is lived, you can't & do not fight every battle at the same time.

>I said- cutting a child isnt a good idea -

No it isn't but eliminating the cutting of females should take precendence over the eliminating the cutting of men because what happens to the women is simply far worse. Can we atleast agree that the cutting is not equal in is results? Many people believe tthat parents shouldn't spank at all but common sense would dictate that the kid consistently getting his arms broken & head bashed in is in a much more dire situation than the child who gets a open handed spank or 2 on his bottom every once in a blue.

>does it really matter if its a boy or a
>girl?

Yes, what is happening to the females is far worse. The equivalent of a man getting his penis REMOVED..that is NOT happening to men.

>Why should we allow it to happen under any circumstances.

We're talking about different situations. I might not like spanking but my approach to dealing with the parent who spanks a kid's butt with his/her hand would be very different from my approach to the parent that hits her child over the head with a bat. Let's be realistic Koala.

>Again we have resorted to the idea that their cultural traditions should be impeded because we dont approve of them nonetheless we do the same thing.

1) we don't do the same thing. Did you read about what female circumcisions are. I didn't have to read about it btw, I know someone who suffered through it. Regardless, you are comparing apples and oranges simply because they're both fruit.

2) If women in these countries are asking for my help in eliminating this tradition, then why wouldn't I assist if I find it wrong. Are you saying that we shouldn't have cared about eliniating the circumstance within South Africa just because we have racism in America? I'm sure you found complicate blacks in SA too....just because apartheid was a tradition there, should it have been allowed to continue?

>You're filled with justifications- they's
>got em too.
>
Anybody can attempt to justify anything if they want. The point is that we all decide what is right & wrong and we all decide which situations warrant immediate attention while others can be put off til later - every day. You do it too.

>unless you're willing to stand by the truth even though it
>diminishes your justifications- dont expect
>anybody else to.

what truth? to say that female circumsision & male circumsision are the same (actually many people say "circumsision" is not the right word to use for what happening to these women but anyway..) is itself a lie. The truth is that if men were having their penises REMOVED which is the equivalent to the type of female circumsision being discussed then I would be equally appalled at both situations. That is not the case, therefore I am not.

>Im sorry they cut little girls vaginas, they attack women with
>machetes in the middle east- things are tuff all over.

They dont just cut, they scrape away vulva & sucture the walls.

>In the states we infest hat black us citizens shouldn't have >our women with tragically low self esteem and then judgementally pick them off when they
>draw logical conclusions from it.

As a black woman, I wouldn't consider those issues particular black women issues to be as important as having your vagina basically cut away. that's my decision to make. I wouldn't expect the sistas going through these procedures to be concerned about my self esteem issues. Just like I would consider getting equal pay for equal work as less of a pressing issue when compared to sistas being enslaved in sex rings throughout the diaspora.
>
>>Until we're ready to face OUR problems - we have no
>>business shaking our fingers at theirs -

So we shouldn't have helped our brethren in South Africa, we shouldn't have fought against Nazi Germany?

>especially if you cant even come to terms
>with the fact that they dont see them as such.

Nazi's didn't consider themselves wrong either...you're point?

While I am careful about the way white women have jumped on this "no female circumcision" bandwagon while ignoring forced steralization of poor minority women in this country...

I can't dismiss though the fact that this practice is causing many black women pain & that many of those WHO CAN, ask for our help. Is there complicity from women in this practice, yes. But there was complicity by us in our enslavement too, doesn't make it right.

Was that even though this custom is extreme- we dont have very sustainable grounds on which to impede them or make comments regarding barbarism and being uncivilized. The point was- if we are to make such characterizations then we might not be so innocent ourselves.

This point is carried out by the fact that in this thread we have yet to see particular details (what country this in for instance- what tribe) that would verify the very disparaging remarks that are being made about people and traditions that they hold very dear. Solarus asked for details on this- he got NOTHING. So basically I have to preside by a more general, reasonable and even conclusion: For some of these people these practices are maintained as they see fit- and they are very much entitled to that.

Like I said- Im sorry that it happens- but we cant expect for everyone's customs to meet our liking- we certainly cant parade like the moral vanguard of social development- we just dont have it in our capacity.

Somebody posted a while ago about rhetorical ethics- this is exactly that. I could come on here and say- THATS OUTRAGEOUS - but look at the information that we've been given so far; I would be commenting on nothing but the empty notion that these women are being brutalized despite any actual evidence much less a defense on behalf of the accused. That may be how you'd like to seek out justice- but dont call it fair.

I bring up male circumcision not because its the same- but because it is in a similar context and even though we admit its not necessary and can agree that it hurts it still happens but we justify it. The difference is our situation is here and this situation is somewhere that has yet to be determined- you can disapprove of it if ya want but so far its ethnocentricity veiled in a highly unqualified sense of justice.

If you want to be outraged - shed tears but there are plenty of people that deserve sympathy and compassion- if youd like to waste your time quantifying who deserves more or less be my guest. Dont be disappointed in me if I dont play along.

If you want to talk about it - we just did.

If you want to do something - the least you could do is tell us where it is happening.


K

Let me weigh in on this topic of "Female Genital Mutalations"
Frankly, I enjoy the female clitorus emensely and would NOT want my woman to be without one. Besides that would not prevent a woman from cheating any way. It speaks volumes about a man's insecurities to think that, mutalating a baby would be a solution. It's horrible, and needs to be STOPPED!
Removing a males foreskin is nothing like removing a womans sensory organ. It's not even close to the same difference.
I pray for the women and girls who have to endure such barbarism.

specifically what cultures in Africa and Middle East. I'm familiar with the practice but I just realized when trying to specify exactly who does it, I was at a loss.

Wait a minute I can look it up on the NET!

Peace

Solarus



"To be perfect is to lack nothing essential to the whole therefore I AM."-
Solarus

"And if I have to dead you, it's only cuz I love you."- Talib Kweli

Ethiopia - Most of the tribes

Egypt - Mostly the nomadic ppl in the south. But the practise is still widespread in the cities.

Are you aware of the custom behind these rituals or the reasoning? Are the traditions similar across the tribes?

Ethiopia: It is mostly practiced among three tribes. The Amhara, Oromo, and Adere. The Muslim Oromo's and Adere perform this act because of its religious importance, while the Amhara's it’s a culture act. One of the reasons in the past for FGM (Female Genital Mutilation) was that virginity was a prerequisite for marriage (most marriages were arranged), and that it would discourage promiscuity after marriage.

Nowadays, there has been a decrease mainly due to awareness, but also females are free to marry anyone they wish. Also, I can't recall the date, but there was a campaign by the Muslim leaders advocating the less extensive Sunni circumcision.

Hope this helps..

Hotep

One of my reasons for asking was that I was made aware that this is a highly prevalent practice among Islamic groups throughout Africa and Middle EAst. Someone went as far to say that this is a practice that was INTRODUCED to Africa through the spread of Islam. While I cannot say for sure how accurate this is, I can definitely say that there are no records of this as a common practice in ancient Egypt (KMT) and I have not been made aware of this practice in pre-Islamic West African empires.

If I'm not mistaken, Lerone Bennet talks about this being a practice used among early Puritans in colonial America, in his book "Before the Mayflower." However I might be mistaken and this is another topic altogether.

Peace

Solarus

"To be perfect is to lack nothing essential to the whole therefore I AM."-Solarus

"And if I have to dead you, it's only cuz I love you."- Talib Kweli

In my humble opinion, is that I don't believe Islam advocates Circumcision as a means to curb a females sexual appetite, but rather it encourages being chaste till marriage not necessarily through circumcision. At the same time it advocates Male genital mutilation but only for cleanliness reasons.

Somehow things got mixed up...

Male circumcision not gential mutilation.

whats the difference?

according to the American Heritage Dictionary

genital mutilation: The cutting or excision of all or some of the genital organs, especially ritualistic clitoridectomy.

circumcize: 1. To remove the prepuce of (a male). 2. To remove all or part of the clitoris, prepuce, or labia of (a female).

ETYMOLOGY: Middle English circumcisen, from Latin circumcderecircumcs-, to cut around, circum-, circum-, + caedere, to cut.

is that circumcision for males does not leave the penis in an altered state as far as function goes. female 'circumcision' (specifically the clitoredectomy) and subsequent lacerations most certainly do. it diminishes not only pleasure, but also the vagina's ability to self-clean and in general expel bacteria and other foreign substances--a function the foreskin does NOT perform. it's called mutilation for a reason.

also, male circumcision is performed days after a child is born. it can be argued that the baby (and the body) remembers this day, but there is no cognitive understanding of what is happening to him until it's already been done. the girls who are getting 'circumcized' are not babies. they're pre-teens who have already experienced (deliberately or not) what having a clit feels like. there is no sense of loss in the boy like there is for the girl.

finally, as has already been discussed, this procedure is performed to control female sexuality and sexual behavior. there is no such agenda with male circumcision.

//arg.

Hotep

In some African cultures (I know of West African groups specifically but I'm sure there are others) male circumcision occurs during adolescence as part of a rites of passage ceremony into manhood. It's usually a Westernized and/or Jewish practice to circumcize at birth or a few days afterwards. I'm not sure about Asian and indigenous American cultures.

PEace

Solarus
"To be perfect is to lack nothing essential to the whole therefore I AM."-Solarus

"And if I have to dead you, it's only cuz I love you."- Talib Kweli

says nothing about female genital mutilation. imams now say that the mother or whoever it is that has done the act to her child must ask the child for forgiveness.

it is not an islamic tradition, it is merely a cultural practice.

Hotep

Excuse me I did not specify myself, "with the spread of ARABIC culture." Islam was born as an intricate part of Arabic culture and expressed Arabic ideals however there it is not the sum total of Arabic culture. My point was that I have not found any evidence of this practice in African cultures before their Islamization or should I say "Arabization."

As you can see this has nothing to do with ending or continuing the practice in an of itself. This was simply an inquiry into the origins of this practice.

You mentioned this is a practice found "mainly in Egypt." I mentioned earlier that this practice was not found in KMT (ancient Egypt). So where did the practice come from? You tell me. I'm curious.

PEace
Solarus


"To be perfect is to lack nothing essential to the whole therefore I AM."-Solarus

"And if I have to dead you, it's only cuz I love you."- Talib Kweli

Even if FGM origins were culture based, it was still practiced under the emblem of Islam, no matter how misconstrued.

Like I said before, Islam doesn't advocate circumcision for women, only for men.

something to keep in mind is the history of the spread of Islam through the expansion of the Ottoman and Safavid empires from early on in the middle ages until the 20th century. Especially notable is the tolerance of the Ottomans for the practices of other cultures which helped in it's flourishing for almost 700 years with holds as far north west as Budapest and down south to North Africa, and the shores of the Red Sea.

This allowed for local practices to persist even under Islamic rule, and perhaps somewhere along the way, FGM began to become associated with Islam since it was being practiced under Islamic rule.

This is also the way veiling came to be analogous with Islam. This is completely unrelated but just goes to show the way cultural and religious distinctions become blurred over time.

some parts of ethiopia, sudan, somalia, kenya, some of the northen african countries---mainly egypt. i believe its practiced in some parts of yemen as well.

memory fails me right now

but you have to realize its now practiced everywhere practically. people now even do it in canada and the united states.

Believe it or not, Oprah did a show on this not too long ago, a few weeks ago I think. There's a website that gives more information on it, but I don't have it with me...I'll post it later.

As far as things that can be done with it, I think that you can probably contact the UN & foreign embassies to find out if there is any legislation being passed to outlaw it, and go from there. Contacting our US ambassadors to express concern might be good too.

I think Essence may have done an article on this too not very long ago. But you're right in feeling saddened by it. This is one of those traditions that almost make me glad that I didn't grow up in those particular parts of the motherland.


*Just because you aren't ready for the day, doesn't mean you should not let the night pass* A Gwendolyn Brooks quote I hope I got right, but think is probably off base a little...

this is a topic close to my heart...

i completely understand your dismay at what is a dangerous practice that has been practiced all over the world (even in these united states). i come from a culture where female circumcision is widely practiced, i would warn you against taking the stand that many western nations have taken which is wagging a condescending finger at these "barbarians" and telling them to "stop it". the folks (particularly the women who in many instances engage in this willingly) that practice this are pretty smart folks with bad information. the goal should be to educate these women about the dangers of female circumcision and support them to rid their cultures of the practice THEMSELVES. any organization (united nations, etc.) that is not using this approach merely moves the practice further underground.

if you are looking for reading on the topic there are a few books that i find to be one-sided but they do give good background on the psychological and physical consequences of genital circumcision. they are Possessing the Secret of Joy and Warrior Marks by Alice Walker. however, i really like the book Cutting the Rose by Efua Dorkenoo.

=================================
"I hope to never be at peace. I hope to make my life manageable, and I think its fairly manageable now. But, oh, I would never accept peace. That seems death." -Jamaica Kincaid

completely

Isnt that what I said?

"Again we have resorted to the idea that their cultural traditions should be impeded because we dont approve of them nonetheless we do the same thing."
-Koala

"we don't do the same thing."
-Nahymsa

"i completely understand your dismay at what is a dangerous practice that has been practiced all over the world (even in these united states)."
-solmariposa

"I agree completely"
-nahymsa


"Until we're ready to face OUR problems - we have no
business shaking our fingers at theirs"
-koala

"So we shouldn't have helped our brethren in South Africa, we shouldn't have fought against Nazi Germany?"
-nahymsa

"i come from a culture where female circumcision is widely practiced, i would warn you against taking the stand that many western nations have taken which is wagging a condescending finger at these "barbarians" and telling them to "stop it"
-solmariposa

"I agree completely"
-nahymsa

From the start i said this doesnt have to be about culture/character assasination and even somebody who is of the culture in question agrees. They have been called barbarians, uncivilized, and now you've likened them to nazis. When I say its not necessary and demeaning you even justify these prejudiced notions and offer a few more, when a female says it you agree completely!?

Thats YUCK

K

.

Hotep

You are right in stressing the importance of mking preconceived notions about others cultural practices. The US and UN only speak against countries for the purpose of demeaning them so the naive global sheep ..err.. I mean people, will be LEAD to the conclusion that these cultures are barbaric. Thus any attack made (economic,cultural, political, militaristic,etc.) on them will be justified. Then under the table gains are made from exploiting them.

For instance, the US and Christian organizations exploit slavery still occurring in Sudan and while they "appear" to be rectifying the problem they are secretly continuing it and benefitting from it. The US and other Western governments and private citizens make billions of dollars from the slave infested Sudanese economy (see arabic gum trade). Although there maybe certain sanctions against it Sudan still produces over 70% of the world's arabic gum supply which is a product in a multitude of manufactured goods. Then the Christian organizations benefit by exploiting the time-worn "Islam barbarian oppresses Christian believer" propaganda. However the religious persecution propaganda is void when one considers that the only ones being enslaved are all BLACKS who are Christian, Muslims AND so-called Animists, while the government is Arab controlled.

However K-love your whole argument was weakened when you compared male circumcision to female circumcision (proper term "female gential mutilation"). You shouldn't have done that because that detracted your initial argument of "ethnocentricity" to one of "male chauvinism." Even if you did not mean it this way to the wayward reader, let's not even think about a womanist, anything else that came out of your mouth would have been void. This is why you two went down a path that was not endemic to your first point.

My personal opinions:

1. Female genital multilation is a practice that needs to end.
2. Using terms like "barbaric" and "uncivilized" are concepts at promoting Western cultural dominance on the world.
3. Any Westerner calling a non-WEsterner "uncivilized" is HYPOCRITICAL.
4. UN needs to be dismantled and the US, destroyed. (Whoah! Where did this come from?)

PEace

Solarus

"To be perfect is to lack nothing essential to the whole therefore I AM."-Solarus

"And if I have to dead you, it's only cuz I love you."- Talib Kweli

As always I am put in a position of defending arguments that I never made. I did not compare male and female circumcision (and i dont think i ever referred to it as female circumcision)- I offered it as an analagous incident that we could all speak on through actual experience (being in the context of a country where it is the norm) - I certainly never said that they were equal attrocities- In fact I said quite clearly that they werent. I offered the idea that ethnocentricity provides us the means us recharacterizing similar activity - namely traumatic child surgery - so that its ok under our conditions and not ok in theirs- lo and behold we've demonstrated that quite clearly.

I also brought up girls piercing their own ears- but no one harped on that because many of you are too willing to deflate my thoughts cuz they're not all gung ho about characterizing people as morally depraved when they do some shit that we dont like.

I agreed on several occassions that this practice was extreme - did you guys miss that or disregard it- but as long as I didnt preface and interject that this is an outrage it seems like people are all too willing to claim me a chauvinist when it is obviously clear that i'm not. I dont think there's much of a difference between raising a knife to a boy or a girl- all that shit needs to stop- i said that. We live in a country we're people voluntarily have their genitals mutilated- whats the difference - anasthesia? and take note- I said "whats the difference?" not "who cares?" It baffles me how I raise one similar issue and get shut down on the grounds that the instances against females are more of a concern yet Im labelled as a chauvanist- my point was any of these acts committed against children should stop- the idea is that the gender makes no difference to me- even if the variant genitalia is subject to unequal treatment - whats chauvanistic about that?

Perhaps some took issue with the fact that I dont claim this situation as a moral priority despite the obvious extreme and seem to be championing the cause against male circumcision thats not exactly what was said.

In terms of this situation I commented quite clearly that unless there's some detailed information about where this happens then we're not really talking about anything and we might as well be talking about what happens here- as such I resigned to "preside by a more general, reasonable and even conclusion: For some of these people these practices are maintained as they see fit- and they are very much entitled to that." My point is our people conduct child genital mutilation (much less adult genital mutilation) as they see fit and before we step in on impeding the cultural traditions of others we might be better off putting ours in check- not because theirs dont need to be stopped but because if you insist on stopping someone stop your own people first- especially if they do it more and in a variety of different ways. Perhaps our customs arent threatening cuz we're civilized.

To qualify that male circumcision isnt as bad- Yemaya made statements about its effects that just werent true- plain and simple- I corrected those statements. I never said there wasnt a difference- obviously there is one- my point is there is an underlying context - child genital mutilation - and if that context finds them guilty- then we are not that far behind.

Read the post- its all there clear as day. Where did I call it female circumcision? Where did I make such a comparison without agreeing that female genital mutilation was more extreme?

I brought up male circumcision to raise the point that our culture also commits crimes against children but we justify them-and even the idea that its not as bad as female genital mutilation is in and of itself a justification- you're welcome to that I only intended to point it out. You can honor such justifications if you like but dont bother trying to convince me that both of these acts arent flip sides of the same coin - sure the female side is worse - ill say it ten more times if that would make anybody feel better; but I WILL NOT abide by the idea that these people are uncivilized, nazi, barbarians without insisting that we admit that this country does it to- to little boys and little girls.

Now tell me how they're any more barbaric than we are? We do it to both sexes in this country. Not to mention the fact that we carry female mutilation well into womanhood and manhood.

Our "civilization" has even come to a point where transforming sexual organs is acceptable. You guys shout "we dont do that" I know people who've had it done. I dont give a flying fuck if my argument is weakened- solmariposa said the same thing- listen to her.

K

Hotep

"We're not seeking to compare the attrocities committed against gender- but to stop the attrocities unilaterally right? If so- we might be better off arguing how circumcision in and of itself must be eliminated." - K-Love

I hear ya, I was just pointing out why the discussion led to where it did.

By the way who is "us" when you talk about "us" being "barbaric"?

America is the epitome of barbarism... Good thing I'm not American. :-)

PEace

Solarus

"To be perfect is to lack nothing essential to the whole therefore I AM."-Solarus

"And if I have to dead you, it's only cuz I love you."- Talib Kweli

you know the rest ;-)

I'm not the most educated person on this subject, but I have attended three lectures on it, and read several scholarly articles (journals).

The problem with the concept of the women putting a stop to it is as follows: too often, the women don't count. They have no way to stop it... because in the culture they are just bodies, nothing more. If they resist mutilation for themselves or their children, they are put through various forms of intense torture themselves.

In many cultures, the initiation consists of much more than genital mutilation. Initiations often include slashes of the skin with various knives/razors...

Certainly, there are a few cultures where the women are tolerant of it, possibly supporting it. While there is a fine line between unwanted deculturization (not a word, I know, but I couldn't think of the word I wanted) and human rights, I have no doubt that this is a severe human rights issue. But seeing how I'm somewhat opposed to the UN anyway, I wouldn't say that's the best method of resolving the issue. Instead, certain activist groups (imo) are more powerful and a bit more logical in their approach...
-thebigfunk

>The problem with the concept of
>the women putting a stop
>to it is as follows:
> too often, the women
>don't count. They have
>no way to stop it...
>because in the culture they
>are just bodies, nothing more.
> If they resist mutilation
>for themselves or their children,
>they are put through various
>forms of intense torture themselves.
>

Which countries/tribes is torture for refusing circumcision practiced at?
What do you mean "they are just bodies?"

Do you have any URL, books, and journals to support this?


Peace,
Kream

Don't have any links on hand, but I can find some articles. Give me a day or two...

-thebigfunk

To answer all these howling Koalahaters the only comparison that Im making is between two cultures- ours (American) and theirs (whoever they might be). When considering female genital mutialition and what we come to know as circumcision- I dont feel there is any comparison that needs to be made as both terms can be applied to either procedure (check the definition).

I raise these issues not as a charge to disregard the attrocity as presented but to put it in a more reasonable context- to diffuse it of several demeaning characterizations that are being made or at least to demonstrate how those characterizations can made of our culture as well. You are not expected to agree to the characterization when it comes hurling back at your culture -it is only meant to show just how effective it might be to call someone a barbarian or a nazi in order to get them to change their customs- in the end if you are not compelled to make changes then I submit that you truly understand them.

I dont "compare" or contrast male and female genital mutilation cuz as I see it they fall under the more unilateral term child genital mutilation - which is what i feel is the absolute threat. It would be like me comparing apple picking to cherry picking- or belaboring the point that each procedure is different; what difference does it make when one accepts the idea that picking the fruit itself is an unconscienable act.

When it comes down to comparing the barbarism of these two cultures I am dismayed to see my people so eager to cast a negative light on a culture that you have little or no information about. You say- look at what they do - I say - we do it too - you say NO WE DONT- its not the same - perhaps its worse

make it plain

Not so fast Uncle Sam- the cultures in question may admittedly have this one infraction- but to call them barbarians would defy the fact that this nation claims the same infraction on so many levels that the idea that it claims itself civilized is Outrageous not to mention derisive. To site male circumcision is to say the least- are not women in this nation compelled to mutilate and undermine the integrity of their bodies? Do they not implant man made tumors into their breasts? Are not men in this nation compelled to sever their penises and women to reform their labia into phaluses by a severely deranged social gender order? Are not young girls encouraged to injest medications that have been proven damaging to the reproductive system? Are not viruses formed to strike at the very core of reproductive interaction?

i digress

With so little information about the reality of these other cultures it seems to me the most we can do is rally behind a lame sense that our moral objection is somehow indicative of a culture that doesnt do this, but do you really believe we dont? Maybe its enough for you to object to this on the grounds that somebody does it differently (or "worse")- but are you really convinced that the same pain doesnt lurk here? Is it civilized that we have anesthesia to dull that pain, or media to celebrate its more fashionable results? Are we to be deemed civilized as the weak willed, weakminded, oppressed, utterly saddened or even willful men and women among us are encouraged to partake in it?

It seems to me that while our civilization has provided us many distractions and objections to such traditions it has replaced them with many many more damaging ones. One such distraction is to object not just to the act itself (as that alone would surely find us guilty as well) but to the very character of those who commit them in such a ghastly manner- despite the fact that we dont know and arent really willing to learn that much about them. We used to call them the HUN.

again i digress

You may want them to stop what they're doing- but I wanted to warn you of what you may be doing to them.

The reality is just as solmariposa and solarista suggest it. While there is great value in redemption for these women- we shouldnt necessarily endorse the likes of the UN and the US who would "morally" object to it even though we do so individually and personally. I assure you their cultures have brought far more sickness and victimization to the world than the ones in question ever could- even in the same category. The true solution is at least compassion- not only for the women who fall victim but even for those who are devoted to the tradition (not necessarily the nazis that theyve been made out to be). Unless you're willing to believe that these are devoted and reverent people as opposed to innately depraved savages- you will never teach them, or even see to it that they are taught.

Above all I challenge the accusation that these are barbarians especially if this accusation is provided by the beast.

K

Hotep

American culture = Barbarism


"I wanna kill Sam cuz he ain't my muthafuckin Uncle!"- Ice CUbe(when he was bout it!)

PEace

okaykoalahater :-)

"To be perfect is to lack nothing essential to the whole therefore I AM."-Solarus

"And if I have to dead you, it's only cuz I love you."- Talib Kweli

My mom had it done to her. My mom's mom had it done to her. They have no "emotional scars" and they are two of the most wonderful and loving women you would ever meet.

My point - WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?

At times I read the stuff on these boards and I shake my head. I don't know you but I think you need to get off that high horse you're on! How dare you seat in your home and criticize what's happening thousands of miles away if you don't have any FIRST-HAND KNOWLEDGE about it? That's the dumbest shit I've ever heard and that kind of thinking is really prevalent on these boards.

You mofos need to wake up and deal with YOUR own problems and stop looking for other people to help. Who died and made you the crusader for the ban on "female genital mutilation"?

Please note, I am not saying I endorse the act. My beef is with the subtle message that YOUR standards are the standards everyone should go by! Mind you, you get most of these standards from people who are out to make a buck or benefit by having you think a certain way! And those standards change all the time.

An example is the cool image associatd with smoking. Many kids grow up believing (at least in Finland, can't speak for anywhere else) that smoking is cool. So they smoke. Enough of them do it so it becomes like a right of passage to adulthood. Basically, it becomes like a standard. Does that make it any less harmful than "female genital mutilation"? And in the case of these kids, someone makes a buck of selling them these harmful lifestyle as well.

My point is don't sit and judge others just cause you can't or won't make the effort to understand them. It's that kind of thinking that starts wars!

Out,
Naijaboy.

.

...put an end to teen smoking in America and then we can talk!

put an end to:

homelessness
environmental pollution
high murder rate
exploitation of all peoples of color in America on ALL levels
American exploitation of foreign countries
wasteful, gluttonous use of 40% of the world's resources
world hunger when America is suffering from a high rate of obesity.

Well just put an end to AMerica as we know it, then AND only then
can we talk.

PEace
Solarus


"To be perfect is to lack nothing essential to the whole therefore I AM."-
Solarus

"And if I have to dead you, it's only cuz I love you."- Talib Kweli

Hetepu,
This is just my 3rd swim in the ocean of boards. I have not really responded to anything because I think that people tend to get a little out of control. Still though I am really enjoying(because of its educational intent) this discussion "around" female genital mutilation. I say "around" because people keep getting off of the subject -mainly as a show of ego.

I appreciate Naijaboy's spin on things because it speaks to the reality that America tends to program our minds with a worldview that defines all "others" as inferior-as if its own shiznit don't stink! This country cannot stand on any moral ground sturdy enough to respectfuly criticize another people, another culture, or another practice.

Furthermore, I must give some props to Solarus. I read some of your words on KMT. I appreciate the education brother. You remind me of sun-one I know from from Brooklyn. Talk with you all in a minute.

-Coltrane

But it still does not curb my view that the practice is extreme and harsh....

LISA,

MY BEST ADVICE TO YOU WOULD BE TO GO TO OPRAH'S WEB SITE AND E-

MAIL HER IN REGARDS TO THIS SUBJECT. WOMEN HAVE COME FORTH TO

EDUCATE (FROM THEIR EXPERIENCES)ON THE PAINFULNESS OF F.G.M.

I TOO CRIED WHILE WHATCHING A BABY HAVE HER CLITORIS REMOVED ON

THE SHOW. ASK THEM ABOUT THE WEBSITE DEDICATED TO SUPPORTING

THE END OF F.G.M.


I DON'T THINK ANYONE WHO STILL HAS HER CLITORIS CAN SAY SOMEONE

WHO HAS BEEN THROUGH THIS IS ECSTATIC, OR THAT WE'RE FOOLISH FOR

BEING EMOTIONAL ABOUT IT. WHEN A PART OF YOU IS TAKEN AWAY, IT

HURTS (EMOTIONALLY OR PHYSICALLY). SOME PEOPLE LEARN TO BURY

PAIN IN ORDER TO GO ON. OTHERS EXPRESS THEIR ANGER AND USE

THEIR EXPERIENCE TO SAVE OTHERS FROM GOING THROUGH THE SAME

THING.


KEYWORD:OPRAH

Naijaiboy testified to the idea that a woman can have this procedure and nonetheless be happy about it. He even criticized people for being emotional about it especially if they dont have any considerable amount of experience with the custom or the people it touches.

K

YOU should ask a female first hand about the procedure.

K

Becuase the women of the culture have been conditioned to except the practice does not make the practice justified!!....

you cant just preside by the notion that either these women are victimized or conditioned- you have to accept the fact that some of these women have the volition and the devotion to justify this for themselves whether you like it or not.

If you intend to address this issue fortuitously then you must eliminate the notion that the act is barbaric or monsterous. My point is not that this procedure is a good thing- but you must at least realize that the context in which it is performed is not necessarily as negative as you see it. Im not saying you need to agree with this custom but you must certainly understand if you sincerely intend to do something about it.

Despite your presumption of how or why they do this- or the demeaning light that is cast down by the moral buearacracy - claiming them savage is innacurate, one fact we can agree to is that in most cases it is done out of devotion to their moral order one that is supposedly offered by Gods or even ancestry- there's absolutely nothing savage about that. To call them barbarians defies the fact that these people are intelligent, cultured and devoted to tradition; to engage them as savages would be to underestimate them. To dispute these traditions on the grounds that they are "evil" would be to place any opposer squarely in the role of infidel.

Many of these customs are intended to quell not just female sexuality but an even larger decline into moral depravity that can be encouraged by liberal (as opposed to restrictive) social traditions. Im not saying that the ends justify the means but in our case- we dont have much place to challenge the ends cuz our culture is plagued by the very thing that they are trying to avoid.

K

yo, I'm in +full+ agreement with you?

but again, and falling back on my post, where are these customs formulated? and why are they adopted?

true enough, and paraphrasing what you said, they're trying to avoid the turmoil our culture has fallen into. okay, I'm in agreement with the intentions.

but c'mon, to boil to the extent of mutilating female genetalia in order to keep they're effing morals intact? I'm sorry, but, personally? that is +not+ a justifiable enough reason to carry out such an atrocious act.

and uhm, I'm not coming off arguementive at all, I'm just standing behind my feelings with this custom.

to stray away from the subject though, I didn't know you were stationed in the "d".

yo, you makin it to the skool nite battle at the blind pig on the 31st of january (wow, what a change of topics, eh?)?

we're definately on the same bandwidth (well, you being a bit more knoledgable and opiniated), and I'd be great to meet you.

a'ight, I'm outta this. oh, and let me know somethin, ya heard?

one up, peace.

I'm iced out crazy son,
e-Factor

One man's simple is another man's huh—David Stone, 1979

Exercise intellect, if you lack it pretend—Sole, 1999

Peace and love to all the zodiac signs—Zion of Zion I, 2000

where'd these customs get derived from?

I mean, how can you twist the motion of mutilating a girl's genetalia and adopt it as a ceremony or somethin?

I agree with you on the un's help.

'cause with the way life and cultures have been denounced in many of those countries? its no excuse for the un to +not+ be involved.

well, the ethninticity of the people could be a justifiable reason for them, but uhm, that's another subject.

just the thought of the process is horrid.

I'm iced out crazy son,
e-Factor

One man's simple is another man's huh—David Stone, 1979

Exercise intellect, if you lack it pretend—Sole, 1999

Peace and love to all the zodiac signs—Zion of Zion I, 2000

>I mean, how can you twist
>the motion of mutilating a
>girl's genetalia and adopt it
>as a ceremony or somethin?

you sound like such a bigot.

>I agree with you on the
>un's help.
>
>'cause with the way life and
>cultures have been denounced in
>many of those countries? its
>no excuse for the un
>to +not+ be involved.

most of the countries that its practiced in hate the US and therefore hate the UN, you don't take advice from people u don't like. and all those supermodels like iman and waris dirie that are trying to stop this in their country (somalia), well their efforts are really futile. somalis view these women as sell-outs, they are a very proud people and for a women that the view as a disgrace (cuz she poses half naked, and had a kid outta wedlock) to offer them advice is a slap in the face. the only way this practice will stop is with more education and the women of the countries to want it to stop.

>well, the ethninticity of the people
>could be a justifiable reason
>for them, but uhm, that's
>another subject.

again u sound like a bigot, or maybe i'm misunderstanding. anyway whats that supposed to mean.

every single one of you on here, is debating an issue that does not concern you.

talking about psychological problems----well let me tell you the majority of these women do not have psyche problems, and the minority that does either has it because of complications during the procedure or because of people like you. most of these women consider it normal and don't see themselves any different from any of you, but after they get bombarded with all this crap about the practice being barbaric, well of course they'll feel ashamed. and gynecologists are the worst of the bunch. they treat these women like freakin exhibits, calling so many of their collegues in to see this poor woman's vagina. believe me i've known doctors who do this, bunch of assholes. you don't get psychological problems because of the pain, please. yes it is painful but after the healing period is over, i mean thats it you forget about it.

get off your high horses and stop judging people. acting like your the bloody saviours of the world.

this really does not concern you. it is a practice that will probably not stop unless the people who are in those cultures want it to stop.

and to the fools talking about women get beat or killed for refusing the procedure does not know what they're talking about. it might happen in an obscure little tribe, but believe me it is not common. in most cases it is the women who choose to undergo this because it is a rite of passage. it is also the mothers and grandmothers of these young women that want them to undergo this ritual.

i'm not condoning this practice, but at the same time its part of my history, my people.

women lead happy, healthy lives. you're acting like these women are crippled or handicapped. god there is nothing wrong with them.

i suggest you go back to feeding the homeless on your streets or doing something about the crime rate. typical american fashion to bud their noses into issues that doesn't concern them.

Hotep

Americans are disgusting and need to be burned at the stake. Oh yeah Iman is disgusting, I wouldn't listen to here David Bowie- liking ass either.

PEac
Solarus

"To be perfect is to lack nothing essential to the whole therefore I AM."-Solarus

"And if I have to dead you, it's only cuz I love you."- Talib Kweli

just because the woman go along willingly with the procedure does not make the procedure right....
fuck that
the shit is wrong
niggas on the corners have been conditioned to believe that selling crack is ok ... too..

you didn't understand what i said.
i didn't say that the practice was in anyway right or that it should keep on going.
i don't condone it.

>every single one of you on
>here, is debating an issue
>that does not concern you.

You are presuming, it does concern me.

>talking about psychological problems----well let me
>tell you the majority of
>these women do not have
>psyche problems, and the minority
>that does either has it
>because of complications during the
>procedure or because of people
>like you. most of
>these women consider it normal
>and don't see themselves any
>different from any of you,
>but after they get bombarded
>with all this crap about
>the practice being barbaric, well
>of course they'll feel ashamed.
> and gynecologists are the
>worst of the bunch. they
>treat these women like freakin
>exhibits, calling so many of
>their collegues in to see
>this poor woman's vagina. believe
>me i've known doctors who
>do this, bunch of assholes.
> you don't get psychological
>problems because of the pain,
>please. yes it is painful
>but after the healing period
>is over, i mean thats
>it you forget about it.

Again you are presuming. I come from a culture that circumcision is a daily thing. I've seen young females unable to pee because of this practise.




>it is a practice that
>will probably not stop unless
>the people who are in
>those cultures want it to
>stop.

True

in most
>cases it is the women
>who choose to undergo this
>because it is a rite
>of passage. it is
>also the mothers and grandmothers
>of these young women that
>want them to undergo this
>ritual.

In my experience, mothers no longer want their daughters to go through with it, but still do because of fear of being ostracized among their peers.

>i'm not condoning this practice, but
>at the same time its
>part of my history, my
>people.
>
>women lead happy, healthy lives. you're
>acting like these women are
>crippled or handicapped. god there
>is nothing wrong with them.

A lot do but not all.


>i suggest you go back to
>feeding the homeless on your
>streets or doing something about
>the crime rate. typical
>american fashion to bud their
>noses into issues that doesn't
>concern them.


Westerns should mind their own and not interfere with Africans. That is a pointless argument. Tell me, how does poverty in say Ethiopia concern them? It doesn't.

Since you seem to have first hand experience, why don't you eduacate ppl with the truth, rather than passing judgement just like how a lot of ppl are doing on this topic.

>You are presuming, it does concern
>me.

i read what u posted and i was not referring to you, maybe i should've said everyone except kream and that other dude whatever his name is, but i didn't.

>Again you are presuming. I
>come from a culture that
>circumcision is a daily thing.
> I've seen young females
>unable to pee because of
>this practise.

i come from a culture that practices as well, also i have first hand knowledge and experience about this. they're unable to pee during the healing stage of the procedure, the pain is intense at this point, its like acid being poured on an open wound. but like i said that after the healing process the pain is over and done with. some people do have complications but many dont. i have cousins who died from this procedure, and i also have cousins and sisters and aunts, and my mother as well as myself, who have normal healthy lives.

>In my experience, mothers no longer
>want their daughters to go
>through with it, but still
>do because of fear of
>being ostracized among their peers.

times are changing. but in my experience its usually the grandmothers or mothers that have the old ways instilled in them that condone the practice.

>>i'm not condoning this practice, but
>>at the same time its
>>part of my history, my
>>people.
>>
>>women lead happy, healthy lives. you're
>>acting like these women are
>>crippled or handicapped. god there
>>is nothing wrong with them.
>
>A lot do but not all.

the majority of the women do lead healthy lives. i know of many women including myself that are perfectly healthy and happy.


>Westerns should mind their own and
>not interfere with Africans. That
>is a pointless argument. Tell
>me, how does poverty in
>say Ethiopia concern them?
>It doesn't.
>
>Since you seem to have first
>hand experience, why don't you
>eduacate ppl with the truth,
>rather than passing judgement just
>like how a lot of
>ppl are doing on this
>topic.

i've already talked greatly about this subject and at the time that i wrote this i sat there reading all of the replies to this post and i got worked up.
*****library criminals******
and i'm one of them ****hanging head in shame****

man...I have fines in all districts....I have fines in toronto from the time I was in grade 2 (c) some criminal

and i cant get library cards cuz i have some overdue shit from years ago that i didn't return so i'm in their system (c) another criminal

I just wonder how many people with actual experience with these cultures have to say "its not as bad as you're making out to be" before some of you start listening. I said it from the very start, Naijaboy said it, Solmariposa said it, now Hibo says it.

Im all for compassion but alot of you sound like broken records and I really challenge you to realize just how much you know about these customs- especially when you absolutely refuse to respect comments made by people who live it.

K

anyone of them has condoned the practice yet...

They've said quite clearly that despite your negative impression of the act that its not unilaterally and absolutely damaging. In all this self-righteous posturing the only concession that has been made for these people and these women are that they are either barbarians, nazis, or conditioned to accept something that you propose is entirely wrong. You even went further to liken them to drug dealers.

As I said if this is the extent of the characterization that you can provide for them then you are the wrong person to judge much less help. These people are devoted to faith- these people are doing what they perceive as God's will- do you really think they should stop because YOU say so. thats foolish.

I ask you again- how much do you know about these cultures, how many of these women have you spoken to? Is all your passion based on the propoganda that has been provided for you.

If so- you may be right to oppose it, but if you're claiming for a resolution much less activism- you need to study up and pay attention.

What could you really do if the women of the culture themselves dont agree with you- write them off as misguided? thats a pitiful excuse for compassion.

K

So just becuase I live in USA, I can not comment on other peoples cultures with non biased eyes.(WTF)
Many practices and customs that practiced thoughout the world I am not in agreement with and speek out against them whether they are Western or not. I do not agree with cultures that limit individual freedom whether it is the US or Pakastan. I am not in agreement with cultures that believe in genocide whether that be here in the US or in Yogoslavia. I do not agree with practices that require the removal of sensitive sexual organs just becuase they are women...

You living in the US doesnt necessitate bias but it certainly encourages it. i asked you specifically what and who you know that might give you a more accurate depiction of the custom you're only answer is seemingly "well I dont need to know anything about it to disagree with it."

You may be able to look at it without biased eyes- but thats not what you're doing here.

Youve likened the act to genocide now. The problem is not that you know what you do about FGM but that you dont seem too willing to find out more about it especially when first hand experience doesnt ingratiate your sense of morality.

K

We must be careful how we receive and decipher information from mainstream media about the motherland. While it is true that the way female circumsion is performed today is, in some cases, cruel and painful, it was not always like this. Female circumsion has been occuring for thousands and thousands of years and was practiced by all of the ancient cultures, much like male circumsion. It was not done then to either 1. make sex painful or 2. ensure the virginity of a girl. It was done in both case because the foreskin of the male and the clitoris of the female were thought to be 'supernumerary', that is, a part of our body that through genetic deterioration grew...but was not supposed to be there. The ancients felt that someone would not become fully a man or a woman if these extraneous things were not removed. And it wasn't performed by hacking or chopping back then either, believe it or not, the science that we had back then enabled the clitoris to be removed much the same way an umbilical cord is, painless. The mothers of Africa today retain the ancient memories that this needs to be done, but not how to do it correctly.....and only when oppresive religions overwhelmed Africa did this practice become a 'virginity insurance'.


Love, Peace and Understanding

WTF!!

Which religions are you referring too? Islam, Christianity?

And "how" are they oppressive? Because YOU don't practice them?

This is the same judgmental attitude that Hibo mentioned. Since most of y'all don't have any first hand experience with FGM, you shouldn't say shit.
And since you obviously don't practice any of these "oppressive" religions.. Again keep these ignorant remarks to yourself.

I think he means the willful attempt that the Islamic and Christian faiths made at conversion (more heavily a tradition of the christian faith). In their attempt to spread their message around the world the Christian religion saw to it that many foreign traditions and customs were suppressed and fashioned as savage cultures. The Christians even slaughtered those who opposed their idealogies.

Im not a Christian in the devout sense of the religion but I know of the Crusades, the Inquisition and the Church endorsed colonization of foreign lands- thats certainly enough to deem them oppressive.

K

Hotep

What ancient cultures are you referring to that practiced cliterodectomy? And where did you get this information?

PEace
Solarus

"To be perfect is to lack nothing essential to the whole therefore I AM."-Solarus

"And if I have to dead you, it's only cuz I love you."- Talib Kweli

I gotta agree if I hopped off a plain and found out this was happening i'ma go up to the MF with the knife and FUCK HIM UP. Nobody deserves that. That was a part of the female body for a reason. Every part of the body has a reason, contrary to popular to popular belief even the appendix.

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PEACE

Esco:120 Proof from the Trunk to the Root
http://members.blackplanet.com/fourth_venom

We love these hoes!

* http://www.dexterity.net *
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This is meant to be the activist board. That means people should come in here with open minds to learn and to see how we can CHANGE things to make life better for us!

What the hell is all this squabbling going to achieve? About 4 people (including myself)with first-hand knowledge of "FGM" have spoken about how it's not nearly as terrible as the West potrays it. Still you people don't listen! Why don't you first of all find out how things REALLY work before you make judgements. And just coz YOU can't understand why anyone would want to do such a thing does not make it wrong.

An example: It would have been wrong for me to walk down the street holding hands with my girlfriend (she's caucasian, I don't use the term white coz I don't believe in it) 50 years ago. Is it wrong today? Depends on who you ask. I personally believe there's nothing wrong with that while I know some people who believe "GOD" does not approve of inter-racial marriages. And these mofos will even quote the Bible for proof! So in this case just coz a large part of society wouldn't have approved of me having kids with my girlfriend (as of 1950), would that have made it? And would that make it wrong today?

My point is there are no absolute right or wrongs; it all depends on who you ask. Of coz I don't condone murder, rape and the like, but "FGM" is in no way close to those things.

And the main point here - in my opinion - is this: first hand knowledge is key! Would you criticize a hip-hop album if you haven't heard it? NO! You would be a fool to attempt that. But you take the news fed to you from the TV as truth and don't question it. Then you come in here and call yourselves activists!

Find out things for yourself! Don't believe everything the "experts" or "analysts" tell you. They don't know any better than you do but they make millions teling you they do (I know coz I'm one of them).

Another point totally:
Ever wondered why most terrorists seem to be followers of Islam? I was watching the news this morning and they were talking bout how China is preparing to host the 2008 olympics. They then said somrthing like "and the country's police force is getting ready for any attacks from terrorists or Islamic fundamentalists". In short, terrorist = Islamic fundamentalist! The message is subtle, but repeated enough, mofos like you will take it as true.

Sorry for my harsh tone but I'm just pissed with all these talk and no action. Get it in your skull - there is nothing you can do for others until you LEARN for self!

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January is:

I'm quotin' my kids month!

Your momma's so fat that she was diagnosed with a fatal flesh eating virus and they gave her 20 years to live! - My 12 year old making up a "dozens" joke.

"I'm sorry Miss Jackson, I am foreeeel neva meant to make your daughta cry I apologoize a million twoimes" :D My 4 year old with his cute little "proper" accent.