this has probably been done b4, but i'm jus now startin to feel this board a lil more, cuz i'm readin up on things.

but my question is....

what is your opinion on the death penalty?

i mean in 1 case i dont believe the government or a judge should be allowed to legally kill some1. but then in another way, i believe that sum deserve to die. i mean, that guy from the oklahoma bombing killed hundreds of people. i KNOW he deserves to die!!!

but then if u dont kill a criminal (who is supposedly deserving the death penalty), then what do u do with them? keep em in jail? torture them? i dont know really, thats y i want yall opinion.

jus wanna bounce ideas and thoughts around to formulate what i really think should be done.

let me know yall...


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>i mean in 1 case i
>dont believe the government or
>a judge should be allowed
>to legally kill some1. but
>then in another way, i
>believe that sum deserve to
>die. i mean, that guy
>from the oklahoma bombing killed
>hundreds of people. i KNOW
>he deserves to die!!!

ok..since you brought it up..imma hafta put my two-sense in on it..i feel you on the part about some people just deserve to die..but it wasnt just timothy mcveigh(sp?) who was involved in that bombing..so by executing him..that isnt solving the problem of the bombing at all..he was a 'puppet' to destroy that..their is/are a higher 'power' if you wanna call it that..that was 'in charge' of that horrendous event..so for you to say he is to die..is like saying just kill him.and we'll forget about it all..fuck that..by killing him..it wont bring back the people and loved ones that were lost in the attack..we need to dig deeper and open our eyes and realize what is really takin place in this country and this world for that matter..also, president elect g. w. bush has 'legally' killed hundreds of people(while gov. of texas he executed 152 people..more than the other 49 states combined in that time)..so does he deserve to die for that?..think about that next time you see him on tv..im outtro
ONErs

http://www.mumia2000.org

I'm going to come out straight and say that I'm totally against the death penalty. I'm against any sort of killing. Why is it ok that the government can kill people as punishment but civilians cannot kill people? SOunds hypocritical of the government, don't you think? Killing someone for killing someone, hmmm. What kind of punishment is that, what are they trying to teach us? And then there's the Son of a Bush, who loves to kill hundreds of people, many of whom innocent and black, legally cuz he has the option. Fuck the death penalty. And people wonder why Bush is such a bad man...so many reasons, but thats another post/topic.
I think its funny that you, sdhiphop, put at the bottom the mumia abdul-jamal site, someone many are trying to free from the death penalty, when u're not even sure if you agree or disagree with it. I'm not trying to diss you or anything, i'm just trying to point something out.
I think there are so many other solutions besides the death penalty to punish the criminals. And we need to save the innocent ones before theyre sent to the chair. Ghandi and Martin Luther King both knew that an eye for an eye leaves everyone blind.

Peace,
Erica

>I think its funny that you,
>sdhiphop, put at the bottom
>the mumia abdul-jamal site, someone
>many are trying to free
>from the death penalty, when
>u're not even sure if
>you agree or disagree with
>it.


aiight..no diss involved..just lemme state my stance..not once in my first post did i say i 'wasnt sure if i agree or disagree' with the death penalty..i am against the death penalty..the closest thing i said to maybe making you think i wasnt sure of my stance on it was saying that 'i feel you on feeling some people may deserve to die'..but to reitterate myself..i am against the death penalty..sorry to have confused you any..well, im outtro..ONErs
http://www.mumia2000.org
http://www.mumia.org

We were actualy just talking about this in English class 'cause we are reading MEASURE FOR MEASURE, and how the character Angelo believes in the Old Testement view of retaliation (hadrian's code: eye for eye tooth for tooth) and how the character Isabella believes in the New Testement teaching of "hate the sin, love the sinner", so that's how we got into the whole discussion, but whatever.

So, I think that if someone is killed for commiting murder it is not solving anything. It's almost as if it's letting the criminal taking the easy way out. Like the Oklahoma City Bomber, he is appealing to the President to move him up on death row. But isn't that just ending his suffering? I personaly think that it is worse to live until you die in isolation and have to think everday about what you did and all the people you killed and hurt. HOwever, I agree that it isn't as simple as that, each murder has a different scenario and must be delt with in a different way, so there can't be a standard.

And to the guy who said that judges shouldn't have to make the decision, my mom's a judge... they don't like it etiher.



"If I had a penny for every thought, I'd have 3 pennies!!" ~SHU
~WOLFIE~

ummmm...wasn't the "eye for an eye" thing Hamurabi's code?

On a note seperate from the suffering, it costs MORE to kill someone than to jail them for life.

i wrestle with the same questions all of you have mentioned. intuitively i am not for the death penalty but have a hard time refuting arguments that involve criminals who have committed heinous crimes.

my question then is, if we are against the death penalty, what action do we take?


native son

that is the only thing we should do with any criminals. it would take more time to rehabilitate the people whove committed terrible crimes, but even they should be given the chance to enter society again. they would have to medicate the people for this to work. psycadelics would be a good thing for the government to look into for this kind of treatment, but some would say that that would just make things worse. theyd say that there is too much of a risk that they may commit other terrible crimes once released. well, for them i say, spend the tax money more wisely. build clinics instead of prisons. teach legitimate ways of making money in schools, especially in urban communities. also, to poverty driven criminals. and if they are released and kill someone, we are overpopulated as a species anyway. the more we die, the more plants and animals can thrive. the earth needs to regain a balance before humans destroy it. im gonna go now, so i dont bore you with anymore of my crazy philosophies. oh and im not really insensitive to people, im just thinking on a whole.

I'm not sure ALL criminals should (or can) be rehabbed, but I think we ought to try something instead of killing them.

Prison, instead of being a means of repentance and reconciliation, is becoming big business. This "revolving door" sydrome is a biproduct of that "prison as corporation" mentality. The business aspect of prison seems to even override the notion of punishment these days.

On another level, we know the effectiveness of legal representation and other key legal processes are directly influenced by class (for the sake of argument, I'll leave race out of it). With unbalanced odds like these, I don't feel comfortable sending anyone off to die, guilty or not. the only system that could possibly have the moral/ethical right to kill its criminals is a perfect one. And ours is far from perfect.

One innocent life lost is too many.

L.


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for their crimes. Not as a deterrent to others, but as a punishment to the individual. I believe that honestly. Most people who are against the death penalty haven't been victimized or had someone close to them victimized. Or they object on religious grounds.

What I don't believe in is an injustice system which systematically finds poor and minority citizens on death row.

And since we can't have justice, I would vote against any death penalty measures.

peace
k. orr

It's not an issue of whether some people deserve to die
or not. The issue is whether having the death penalty
or not saves more lives. And as usual, it's not as
simple as it looks at first.

The effects of the death penalty as a deterrent have
been well argued (somebody might rob you, but if they
know they will die if they get caught, they won't be
as quick to shoot you in order to keep you from
identifying them). If you look at an annual graph
with the number of murders per state overlaid with
the number of executions, there is a stunning inverse
correspondence.

For me, the bottom line is which one saves more lives.
Anyone who is interested in really thinking about whether
the death penalty is the right solution should consider
that beyond what it makes happen, there is a lot that
doesn't happen because of it.

F

actually, the crime rate runs generally opposite the death penalty...meaning it has little to no deterrant effect. But independant of that, do you really want to find yourself arguing from a utilitarian standpoint? I mean, there would be NO crime if we were all in prison...so obviously the gubmint should just convict us all, right? Aww, hell, since the poorer segments of the population are most likely to commit "crime" (quotes to indicate that rich commit just as heinous offences, but since it is behind a corporate guise, they don't get sent to jail...just slapped on the wrist), why don't we just kill anyone that doesn't meet a certain income requirement?

Check out "The Rich Get Richer And The Poor Get Prison" (I don't recall the author...some professor from Georgetown). It is basically a marxist kritik, but it is good.

You would rather have innocent people die just to have some "deserving" criminals be murdered? Regardless of whether it's one of a hundred, or one out of five.. innocent people are dying just so somebody can feel better about another man's death

'Not merely a concrete test of the underlying principles of the great republic is the Negro Problem, and the spiritual striving of the freedmen's sons is the travail of souls whose burden is almost beyond the measure of their strength, but the name of this land of their fathers' fathers, and in the name of human opportunity'-- W.E.B. Du Bois

You are going to have type 1 and type 2 errors

type 1 - guilty go free
type 2 - innocent are punished.

>You would rather have innocent people
>die just to have some
>"deserving" criminals be murdered?
>Regardless of whether it's one
>of a hundred, or one
>out of five.. innocent people
>are dying just so somebody
>can feel better about another
>man's death

So you would not punish james byrd's killers with the death penalty? Sorry, them boys deserve to die. You wouldn't execute a chronic wife abuser who ultimately murdered his wife? I know I would in a heartbeat.

that's where you and I differ. I've worked in the criminal justice system, for a defense attorney. Nothing is as idealistic as you cats are making it out to be.

peace
k. orr
former law clerk

I think the 'deserving to die' sentiment is faulty. Sure I felt James Byrd's murderers deserved to die.. but just because that's MY sentiment, doesn't mean he SHOULD die

If a skinhead broke into my dwelling and wasted me in front of my computer at this moment, by this 'some people deserve to die' logic, he should be able to leave my carcass with no consequences pending. In his eyes, I deserved to die because of my skin color.. as silly as it may sound, it's the same thing. And just as that skinhead, America (and those within it's culture) has been known to have a FUCKED up view of who's deserving of what

And is death an adequate punishment? You're killing the convict (and ending his pain, excluding afterlife beliefs) and most likely putting incredible pain on his family members and friends.. people that have nothing to do with the victim. IMO, lifetime confinement is much more reasonable.

'Not merely a concrete test of the underlying principles of the great republic is the Negro Problem, and the spiritual striving of the freedmen's sons is the travail of souls whose burden is almost beyond the measure of their strength, but the name of this land of their fathers' fathers, and in the name of human opportunity'-- W.E.B. Du Bois

Is that a more preferable wording?

>If a skinhead broke into my
>dwelling and wasted me in
>front of my computer at
>this moment, by this 'some
>people deserve to die' logic,

You're taking a crime and equating it with how our society uses the legal system.

>And is death an adequate punishment?

It kills the prisoner.

> You're killing the convict
>(and ending his pain, excluding
>afterlife beliefs)

I'm taking away his most fundamental right.

peace
k. orr

said life was ours to take

I don't look to a higher authority to decide my fate, I do. My life is my own to take. And through participation and membership in this society, I give my fellow citizens power over my life.

Do we as a society want our fellows to be able to take our lives is the wrong question though.

peace
k. orr

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> And through participation and
>membership in this society, I
>give my fellow citizens power
>over my life.

I am a part of this society, and as such, I have to follow certain rules/laws/what have u. But if there is anything that has the power of life/death over me, it is some higher force (then possibly, my parents). Everyone else be damned. Still, I recognize that my opinion is a direct result of my belief in a higher power, so I don't expect you to agree. We can agree to disagree on that level.

But scratch all that for a second...All other things being equal, if you're willing say American society has power over your life and you're not rich, White, heterosexual, and male, you're not playing w/ a full deck. Sorry.


>Do we as a society want
>our fellows to be able
>to take our lives is
>the wrong question though.

do you mean in a vigilante sense or in a legal sense (i.e. the death penalty). to me, there doesn't seem to be much of a difference, but you may draw your lines differently.

L.


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>But if there
>is anything that has the
>power of life/death over me,
>it is some higher force
>(then possibly, my parents).

I'm not arguing anything spiritual. Society has the power of life/death over you by nature of brute force. What ever moral or philosophical arguments you have, get pushed aside by badges and guns.

>But scratch all that for a
>second...All other things being equal,
>if you're willing say American
>society has power over your
>life and you're not rich,
>White, heterosexual, and male, you're
>not playing w/ a full
>deck. Sorry.

Maybe you need to explain this, cause I can see where you wanted it to sound forceful, but it doesn't make sense.

In a very real and literal sense, American society has power over us. Not necessarily power to control our minds, but definitely power to shape our thoughts, as well as the real power of the police, law, government et cetera.

>do you mean in a vigilante
>sense or in a legal
>sense (i.e. the death penalty).

In a legal sense.

>to me, there doesn't seem
>to be much of a
>difference, but you may draw
>your lines differently.

Death penalty vs personal retribution?

I'm sure you've heard of husbands killing their wives, or her other lovers over infidelity. The government doesn't execute someone for adultery.

peace
k. orr

>You are going to have type
>1 and type 2 errors

>type 1 - guilty go free
>
>type 2 - innocent are punished.

What do you think of Thurgood Marshall's precedent that it's better to let 100 guilty men go free then punish one innocent?

I actually don't think it's that relevant to this discussion, but you put forth these two "types" and I wondered if you had opinions on that.

>So you would not punish james
>byrd's killers with the death
>penalty? Sorry, them
>boys deserve to die.

No, they just never deserve to return to our society. Like some other people here, I don't believe anyone "deserves to die." It seems to me that any person's participation in society is contingent on the assumption that no one "deserves" death.
And, I (others too, I'm sure) resent your assertion that most people who oppose the death penalty haven't been victims of crime that serious. Not to say that it hasn't changed people's minds, but in my experience it can just as easily give people a keener sense of the preciousness of life.

Just a thought.

>You wouldn't execute a chronic
>wife abuser who ultimately murdered
>his wife? I know
>I would in a heartbeat.

Well, lots of people wouldn't (including me -- mainly because I don't understand what death would accomplish). Right now about 49% wouldn't do it either. 51% would. The way we do things in this country, that means that for now you can.

>Nothing is
>as idealistic as you cats
>are making it out to
>be.

I'm sure that's true. But is it the idealism of the sentiment "anyone can be reformed" that you're reacting to? If so, I agree with you. Some people can't be re-integrated into society. However, if the idealism you're referring to is the sentiment that "every person's life is valuable," I don't see that as particularly idealistic. I see it as a universal truth, and pretty much at the heart of human consciousness. Not something to be cynical or jaded about.


____________________________
"All I want is some truth,
just gimme some truth."

>What do you think of Thurgood
>Marshall's precedent that it's better
>to let 100 guilty men
>go free then punish one
>innocent?

I'd prefer 100 guilty men go free. But that's how are system is designed. It predisposes the person to innocence.


>No, they just never deserve to
>return to our society. Like
>some other people here, I
>don't believe anyone "deserves to
>die."

So no crime, no matter how heinous merits death? Society would not be better off with the death of certain particular individuals? I can't agree. I've seen crime touch so many people. And I"ve seen the guilty go free, only to commit a far worse act. I disagree with the death penalty for practical reasons, not moral ones.

It seems to
>me that any person's participation
>in society is contingent on
>the assumption that no one
>"deserves" death.

Huh, what? How does that work.

>And, I (others too, I'm sure)
>resent your assertion that most
>people who oppose the death
>penalty haven't been victims of
>crime that serious. Not
>to say that it hasn't
>changed people's minds, but in
>my experience it can just
>as easily give people a
>keener sense of the preciousness
>of life.

So suddenly a victim's family wants to preserve the life of someone who hurt them? Sounds like turn the other cheek to me.

>Well, lots of people wouldn't (including
>me -- mainly because I
>don't understand what death would
>accomplish).

It would punish the person who committed the crime. What other goal is there to accomplish?

- protect society - you can protect society to an extent by locking the person up, but it often only makes the person worse, and those that they come in contact.

- deterrence - Jail is a deterrent to those of us who would commit a crime but don't choose to because of the ramifications. But that doesn't describe every person at every time in there existence. Many of us break crimes daily, I speed.

What else is left?

Punishment.


>I'm sure that's true. But
>is it the idealism of
>the sentiment "anyone can be
>reformed" that you're reacting to?

No. But having experience with the subject, it's not really an issue of reformation.

Often folks make mistakes.

Other times there is a greater force in their life pushing them towards crime. (drug abuse/addiction). Or a mental problem, like child molesters.

Or for one reason or another they don't believe that they have any options. (you always have options, but often you don't realize them) Often folks that fit my demographic, fit into this mold.

And then, some folks have poor impulse control, To borrow a term from Neal Stephenson.

I've seen all sorts of folks fit into these 4 categories, and then others who consciously and deliberately choose to commit crimes.

> However, if the idealism
>you're referring to is the
>sentiment that "every person's life
>is valuable," I don't see
>that as particularly idealistic.
>I see it as a
>universal truth, and pretty much
>at the heart of human
>consciousness. Not something to be
>cynical or jaded about.

Philosophy difference.

k. orr

>I'd prefer 100 guilty men go
>free. But that's how
>are system is designed.
>It predisposes the person to
>innocence.

So you're glad that our system presupposes innocence?

>So no crime, no matter how
>heinous merits death?

That's right.

>Society
>would not be better off
>with the death of certain
>particular individuals?

Well, what I'm saying is: that's not my (or anyone's, including our judicial system's) call to make. We may be able to theorize, but as far as I'm concerned, no one person or group of people can decide another person's death.

>I can't
>agree. I've seen crime
>touch so many people.
>And I"ve seen the guilty
>go free, only to commit
>a far worse act.

I never said anything about going free.

>I disagree with the death
>penalty for practical reasons, not
>moral ones.

By "practical" do you mean economic?

>
>It seems to
>>me that any person's participation
>>in society is contingent on
>>the assumption that no one
>>"deserves" death.

>Huh, what? How does that
>work.

Well, most societies I'm aware of do not condone murder (or violent assault). The precept operating in these societies is: the individual lives of its participants are valuable.

>So suddenly a victim's family wants
>to preserve the life of
>someone who hurt them?

Well, that's not quite what I said, but yes. I said that the families had a "keener sense of the preciousness of life," which may manifest itself in the opposition of capital punishment. Also, they may feel like they've had enough death for a while.

>Sounds like turn the other
>cheek to me.

Explain what you mean by this phrase. Or, explain how this phrase is applicable.

>It would punish the person who
>committed the crime. What
>other goal is there to
>accomplish?

Punishment is not the ultimate goal, and since you seem to be someone concerned with prison reform, I hope you understand that principle.

You've given two other goals below, "protecting society" and "deterring criminals." Another goal is reformation/rehabilitation. Granted, as you said, these goals are not universally applicable to everyone, but that doesn't negate them or their value.

>- protect society - you can
>protect society to an extent
>by locking the person up,
>but it often only makes
>the person worse, and those
>that they come in contact.

I see this as a prison reform problem.

>- deterrence - Jail is a
>deterrent to those of us
>who would commit a crime
>but don't choose to because
>of the ramifications. But
>that doesn't describe every person
>at every time in there
>existence.

True. And I thinks it's been well proven that jail (and capital punishment, for that matter) is not an extemely effective deterrent. Even so, it definitely does function that way on some base level (and I don't totally trust those sociological studies -- I think our justice system is too ingrained to isolate in people's minds).

>Many of us
>break crimes daily, I speed.

I don't. :-)


>> if the idealism
>>you're referring to is the
>>sentiment that "every person's life
>>is valuable," I don't see
>>that as particularly idealistic.
>>I see it as a
>>universal truth, and pretty much
>>at the heart of human
>>consciousness. Not something to be
>>cynical or jaded about.
>
>Philosophy difference.


Obviously.

See, now I'm scared of you. What if my response to this post (or any other action I perform in the course of my daily life) is judged by you as "a crime that merits death?" I'm screwed.

Alek

____________________________
"All I want is some truth,
just gimme some truth."

>So you're glad that our system
>presupposes innocence?

Yes.

>>So no crime, no matter how
>>heinous merits death?
>
>That's right.

Okay.

>>Society
>>would not be better off
>>with the death of certain
>>particular individuals?
>
>Well, what I'm saying is: that's
>not my (or anyone's, including
>our judicial system's) call to
>make.

Why not? We have to live with these people. Should we not want to remove the molesters, rapists, and murderers from our ranks?

We may be
>able to theorize, but as
>far as I'm concerned, no
>one person or group of
>people can decide another person's
>death.

Why not? Do you support a woman's right to choose in the absolute sense?

>>I disagree with the death
>>penalty for practical reasons, not
>>moral ones.
>
>By "practical" do you mean economic?

No, in terms of convicting the guilty person.

>Well, most societies I'm aware of
>do not condone murder (or
>violent assault).

Warfare?

The precept
>operating in these societies is:
>the individual lives of its
>participants are valuable.

Under whose definition. That's certainly not Locke, Rosseau, Mill or any of those other cats, from which most governments are based on.

>>Sounds like turn the other
>>cheek to me.
>
>Explain what you mean by this
>phrase. Or, explain how
>this phrase is applicable.

It's religious reasoning. It's kinda odd coming from a socialist.

>>It would punish the person who
>>committed the crime. What
>>other goal is there to
>>accomplish?
>
>Punishment is not the ultimate goal,

Punishment is not the ultimate goal of the death penalty?

>and since you seem to
>be someone concerned with prison
>reform, I hope you understand
>that principle.

that's another topic altogether. I'm sure our philosophies are in much more accord when it comes to reformatting prisons.

>See, now I'm scared of you.
> What if my response
>to this post (or any
>other action I perform in
>the course of my daily
>life) is judged by you
>as "a crime that merits
>death?" I'm screwed.

- deliberate. planned, conscious murder - life

but if it reaches a capital level, particulary brutal, involving torture, kills a lot of people, - death.

under my system just don't choose option 2.

peace
k. orr

Hope you saw that PJ's episode, otherwise the subject won't make much sense.

Anyway...

>>Well, what I'm saying is: that's
>>not my (or anyone's, including
>>our judicial system's) call to
>>make.
>
>Why not? We have to
>live with these people.
>Should we not want to
>remove the molesters, rapists, and
>murderers from our ranks?

Imprisonment (i.e. removal) and capital punishment are not the same thing. I think we should separate them.

>>as
>>far as I'm concerned, no
>>one person or group of
>>people can decide another person's
>>death.
>
>Why not? Do you support
>a woman's right to choose
>in the absolute sense?

Boy, am I ever not going to be baited by that.

>>Well, most societies I'm aware of
>>do not condone murder (or
>>violent assault).
>
>Warfare?

Good point. I was talking about domestic policy, but I should have made that clear. As for warfare...I think that's often a CRITICAL mistake. And, societies don't have to condone warfare (see Vietnam, the Gulf, the Balkans) for it to occur.
But yes, that is a form of murder that is at least allowed for by society.

>
>The precept
>>operating in these societies is:
>>the individual lives of its
>>participants are valuable.
>
>Under whose definition. That's certainly
>not Locke, Rosseau, Mill or
>any of those other cats,
>from which most governments are
>based on.

Okay, I wanted to avoid social contract theories (Rousseau) or utilitarianism (Mill), but here goes. By superficial and standard definitions of both theories, the the good done by removing criminals from society outweighs the personal harm done to the criminal as a result of that act. Nowhere, by the way, does punishment enter into these theories as a goal in and of itself (as a deterrant, etc. yes).
So by that superficial logic, capital punishment can be rationalized according to Mills and Rousseau. However, the DEATH of a member of society is a concrete cost, and one that can be avoided through incarceration. It's unnecessary.

>It's religious reasoning. It's kinda
>odd coming from a socialist.

Socialist? Never woulda guessed! Ha. :-)

>Punishment is not the ultimate goal
>of the death penalty?

No, punishment is not the ultimate goal of the judicial system. And, in fact, there are many people that argue (unsuccessfully, in my mind) that deterrance (assuming that's a word) is the ultimate goal of the death penalty.

>that's another topic altogether. I'm
>sure our philosophies are in
>much more accord when it
>comes to reformatting prisons.

Maybe, man. You never know. We haven't hit a commonality yet...:-)
Did you like _The Unbound Project_?


>- deliberate. planned, conscious murder -
>life

Okay.

>but if it reaches a capital
>level, particulary brutal, involving torture,
>kills a lot of people,
>- death.

See, I don't particularly see any one murder as more brutal than another. The circumstances may be much more painful, but in that case you're really sentencing based on the circumstances BEFORE the murder, in other words, the criminal dies for a crime that isn't murder, just assault. What about kidnappers who torture their victims? What about rapists?

As for killing a lot of people, I still don't see a distinction where capital punishment is involved. Just like you can't kill someone on a Princess Bride-type spectrum of "not that dead" to "pretty dead" to "really dead." Conditions of incarceration, yes. Forty, Fifty life consecutive sentences, yes. No parole, yes. But death for one murder and not death for another? I don't see that (course, I don't see capital punishment in the first place, so I guess that goes without saying).

Alek

____________________________
"All I want is the truth,
just gimme some truth."

the death penalty is weak but my main point is i dont see where humans get the right to judge other peoples lives God gave us a life hes the only one who has the right to take it away we could be judging a person unfairly n i believe in forgiveness 100%- "And if he sins 7 times and 7 times asks for your forgiveness u shall forgive him everytime." we're going against what martin luther king jr fought for too see hes strong thats what u call strong someone who has enough faith in his people to try to change them instead of kill them n i believe it was this faith that got him through were defeating ourselves by killing each other not to mention the amount of innocent people who are killed- the government is obviously not perfect n they make mistakes people are in prison for years before evidence is found of their innocence the main thing is i dont think humans have the right to take another humans life we are all human we all make mistakes n its not right to judge which lives are worth living n which lives dont deserve to live in putting another mans life in our hands like that were just as bad as the convicted killer- a life is a life n they are all equal, they all deserve a chance, they all deserve forgiveness, they all deserve hope, n they all need love. "The old law of an eye for an eye leaves everybody blind. It is immoral because it seeks to humiliate the opponent rather than to win his understanding; it seeks to annihilate rather than to convert. violence is immoral because it thrives on hatred rather than love..."~Martin Luther King Jr. im not naive im not sayin let all the criminals run free so they can kill us all im just sayin throw em in jail for life dont kill em- in my opinion thats worse, after a while u just start wishin they had killed you anyway- someone said physical equivalence isnt the same as moral equivalence- ok but where do morals become equivalent? i mean, to me, judging someone by taking their life is just as bad as killing someone for no reason- it may sound more justifiable to kill someone b/c they killed someone, but when you think about it, you can never really know their motives- to them, their motive for murder was just as good as the governments motive, and you cant say youve ever been in their shoes im not saying that makes it ok im just saying. "People think a lot of what i do is wrong but i think im right, so i think im going to heaven."~Tupac. a person is only held accountable for what they know. you might say well everyone knows killing is wrong. well obviously not, b/c we have people all around us who believe if you got a good reason its ok to kill someone. so if in someones mind they know they have a good reason for doing what thyre doing as, far as they know theyre right. n like i said people are only held accountable for what they know (im not sayin ignore the fact they committed a crime, just realize it might not be a good reason to kill em), n the same knowledge is not universal. i hope yall took what i was sayin the right way cuz a lot of the stuff i wrote could easily be misinterpreted. peace.

Good points. I was waiting for someone to post that particular biblical quote. Personally, I don't think we should look to the Bible for things which concern our modern society, but in general (and proverbial) case like that it's definitely valuable.


>i hope yall took what
>i was sayin the right
>way cuz a lot of
>the stuff i wrote could
>easily be misinterpreted. peace.

I tried. I needed more punctuation, though. :-)

Alek
____________________________
"All I want is the truth,
just gimme some truth."

>
>>I disagree with the death
>>penalty for practical reasons, not
>>moral ones.
>
>By "practical" do you mean economic?

Just so everyone is clear, it costs more to execute someone in our current legal system than to imprison them for life. Not that this has any relevance to the argument as concern for the state's economy should be superceded by the value of human life, I'm just trying to stop a misconception from developing.

-Ryan

"Police don't sweep to get the dust out
They want your name in the system,
I need to mention the death penalty is
legal lynchin
People listen, they got teenagers up in
the line up
To fill the new facility they built,
they need the crime up
Please, the war on drugs is really war
on the youth
War on the people
War on the truth
The violent crimes rise,
the silent dies as sirens cry through
the night
People fight for what's left and not
what's right"

-Talib Kweli

>So no crime, no matter how
>heinous merits death? Society
>would not be better off
>with the death of certain
>particular individuals? I can't
>agree. I've seen crime
>touch so many people.
>And I"ve seen the guilty
>go free, only to commit
>a far worse act.
>I disagree with the death
>penalty for practical reasons, not
>moral ones.

So you do not think taking a life however morally corrupt deserves to be spared? I disagree witht he death penalth for both practical and moral reasons.

>So suddenly a victim's family wants
>to preserve the life of
>someone who hurt them?
>Sounds like turn the other
>cheek to me.

Turn the other cheek...maybe...I guess it depends on how you look at it - but do you argue that the an "eye for an eye" rule is better.

>It would punish the person who
>committed the crime. What
>other goal is there to
>accomplish?

I guess rehabilitation is too much like right to go after. And if we really think about it...What punishment is there in death? Through death you become free...at least from these worldly oppressions.

>- protect society - you can
>protect society to an extent
>by locking the person up,
>but it often only makes
>the person worse, and those
>that they come in contact.

Unfortunately your right...but that's because our jail systems boast of rehabilitation but in fact is more about capitalism.

>- deterrence - Jail is a
>deterrent to those of us
>who would commit a crime
>but don't choose to because
>of the ramifications. But
>that doesn't describe every person
>at every time in there
>existence. Many of us
>break crimes daily, I speed.

I don't think you should patronize the argument. I wouldn't compare speeding to taking a life.

>What else is left?
>Punishment.

But to what degree and at whose expense?


**It's better to know some of the questions than all of the answers.
-James Thurber

http://nativemagazine.com
Are you a native?
I am.

>So you do not think taking
>a life however morally corrupt
>deserves to be spared?

I'm not sure if I get it. But there are some people who deserve to die for their crimes. Perhaps you believe that no one is beyond redemption.

>but do
>you argue that the an
>"eye for an eye" rule
>is better.

In a literal application it wouldn't work. But in some cases, murderers should be executed.

>I guess rehabilitation is too much
>like right to go after.

There are plenty of folks beyond rehabilitiation. Exile might be the only other bet.

> And if we really
>think about it...What punishment is
>there in death? Through
>death you become free...at least
>from these worldly oppressions.

Sorry, I don't subscribe to touchy feely sentiments. In practical terms you have permanently removed someone who committed a serious crime.

>Unfortunately your right...but that's because our
>jail systems boast of rehabilitation
>but in fact is more
>about capitalism.

And now you're going to argue about the prison industry complex?


>>What else is left?
>>Punishment.
>
>But to what degree and at
>whose expense?

Let the punishment fit the crime, and it's at our expense as society. We make the rules.

k. orr

>
>>So you do not think taking
>>a life however morally corrupt
>>deserves to be spared?
>
>I'm not sure if I get
>it. But there are
>some people who deserve to
>die for their crimes.
>Perhaps you believe that no
>one is beyond redemption.

What do you mean "beyond redemption"? I do beleive some people are capable of being saved, of being shown 'the light'.


>>but do
>>you argue that the an
>>"eye for an eye" rule
>>is better.
>
>In a literal application it wouldn't
>work. But in some
>cases, murderers should be executed.

but rapist shouldn't be raped, and theives shouldn't be stolen from...do two wrongs make a right?

>
>>I guess rehabilitation is too much
>>like right to go after.
>
>There are plenty of folks beyond
>rehabilitiation. Exile might be
>the only other bet.

Exile is better than murder.

>> And if we really
>>think about it...What punishment is
>>there in death? Through
>>death you become free...at least
>>from these worldly oppressions.
>
>Sorry, I don't subscribe to touchy
>feely sentiments. In practical
>terms you have permanently removed
>someone who committed a serious
>crime.

so where has the punishment came into play? and What if the criminal wants to die...is it still punishment.

>
>>Unfortunately your right...but that's because our
>>jail systems boast of rehabilitation
>>but in fact is more
>>about capitalism.
>
>And now you're going to argue
>about the prison industry complex?

there's nothing to argue. I think we all know the state of our prison system.

>>>What else is left?
>>>Punishment.
>>
>>But to what degree and at
>>whose expense?
>
>Let the punishment fit the crime,
>and it's at our expense
>as society. We make
>the rules.
Sure we make the rules. A select few make the rules and often in undermining ways. And killing someone is done at the expense of the society? I don't think so. Maybe some believe it is for the benefit of society.

I'm no bible quoting maniac but what about "thou shall not kill".
Do we not have a responsibility to "natural" law as well.

Peace...
MahoganyB

Share your knowledge. It's a way to achieve immortality.
-Dali Lama

>What do you mean "beyond redemption"?

Some cats are just evil. Point blank.

> I do beleive some
>people are capable of being
>saved, of being shown 'the
>light'.

And for those others, if they commit a crime that merits execution, and we can be sure of their guilt, they should die.

>but rapist shouldn't be raped, and
>theives shouldn't be stolen from...do
>two wrongs make a right?

Hence, that's why it doesn't work in a literal sense. In our society we only have 2 options, imprisonment and death.

>>There are plenty of folks beyond
>>rehabilitiation. Exile might be
>>the only other bet.
>
>Exile is better than murder.

Exile also has far more practical problems than execution does.

>so where has the punishment came
>into play? and What
>if the criminal wants to
>die...is it still punishment.

Yes. What the criminal wants, and what society wants are two different things.

>>And now you're going to argue
>>about the prison industry complex?
>
>there's nothing to argue. I
>think we all know the
>state of our prison system.

That's not what I'm getting at. Do you even believe in the institution of prison?

>Sure we make the rules.
>A select few make the
>rules and often in undermining
>ways.

In our system you can always change something. It wasn't too long ago when the death penalty was illegal. It wasn't too long ago when legal segregation was in effect. I don't know why you subscribe to powerlessness, when that is clearly not the case in America.

>Do we not have a responsibility
>to "natural" law as well.

If you can show me where the was codified and debated maybe. But if you bring up Natural law we can make this more academic.

one
k. orr

>
>>What do you mean "beyond redemption"?
>
>Some cats are just evil. Point
>blank.
i know what your getting at but this isn't the movies, the bad guy isn't always automatically known so who decides which cats are just pure evil and what makes them so sure. And when sickness, mental illness, mental retardation come into play whose to make the decision.

>Hence, that's why it doesn't work
>in a literal sense.
>In our society we only
>have 2 options, imprisonment and
>death.

this is because society limits itself to these two options. Of course there are more effective processes than imprisonment and death but none are as lucrative or deliberate as the system we have in place now.

>>so where has the punishment came
>>into play? and What
>>if the criminal wants to
>>die...is it still punishment.
>
>Yes. What the criminal wants,
>and what society wants are
>two different things.

I get your point but you mean the majority of society right?

>That's not what I'm getting at.
> Do you even believe
>in the institution of prison?

in theory yes. the realities of prison however are far from what they "should" be. What other alternative is presented tho? I'm not saying that i beleive you shouldn't be punished if you do wrong...i'm just not agreeing with the processes that it presents, the defects that it carries and overlooks, or the ramifications that it tends to have on us as a culture.I do however recognize the need for one.

>
>>Sure we make the rules.
>>A select few make the
>>rules and often in undermining
>>ways.
>
>In our system you can always
>change something. It wasn't
>too long ago when the
>death penalty was illegal.
>It wasn't too long ago
>when legal segregation was in
>effect. I don't know
>why you subscribe to powerlessness,
>when that is clearly not
>the case in America.

I do not subscribe to powerlessness in any form. but I do not beleive that the death penalty (or my support for it) would exemplify my powerfullness. Does the individual in everyday America make rules? Hell no, not outside of our own homes. People do as a society. I know that much. But I also know that everything isn't peaches and cream when it comes to the lawmaking process or even more specifically the prison system. Yea segregation was legal and hundreds apon hundreds of people had to die, suffer, and fight to change that. Just as with everything else.

My argument with the death penalty is, if it wasn't so subjective, so plagued with horrible mistakes, and countless error laiden rulings, I could stand it more so than I do now.

Yes I beleive that killing is wrong, no matter who does it. But I can't fathom killing someone whose innocent. So if there's no way to full proof the system, why shouldn't it be disregarded and another alternative put in its place.

and as for natural law...i'm referring to the natural law of God.
You wanna read debates on it...there's an entire book dedicated to it....the Bible.

If you dare not to struggle, then you dare not win.
-Fred Hampton

http://nativemagazine.com
Are you a native?
I am.

>i know what your getting at
>but this isn't the movies,

Some cats just get caught up, some have psychological issues, others have poor impulse control. But there are a few that are just plain evil. Furthermore my experience with evil is not from the movies but from real life. There are some cats out there, they do not make up the majority of people involved in the injustice system, that are just plain bad. It's not lack of opportunity, mental retardation, or psychological impulses that makes the commit crimes.

>the bad guy isn't always
>automatically known so who decides
>which cats are just pure
>evil and what makes them
>so sure.

Hence why I don't support the death penalty for reasons of practicality. That is the argument you are making. Or you are saying that there is no absolute. (which I really don't hope you're saying).

>Of course there are more
>effective processes than imprisonment and
>death but none are as
>lucrative or deliberate as the
>system we have in place
>now.

Get out of here. You can not be serious.
Please list these so called effective processes, and you're understanding of penal history.

>I get your point but you
>mean the majority of society
>right?

That is, whether or not people agree on something, there is still a problem that needs to be dealt with.

>in theory yes. the realities
>of prison however are far
>from what they "should" be.
> What other alternative is
>presented tho? I'm not
>saying that i beleive you
>shouldn't be punished if you
>do wrong...

Are you sure?

i'm just not agreeing
>with the processes that it
>presents, the defects that it
>carries and overlooks, or the
>ramifications that it tends to
>have on us as a
>culture.

I have those same objections. After seeing how minorities and the poor are treated by the law here in the deep south first hand, I have no faith at all in our judicial system. But I'm talking about principle, not practice.

>Does the
>individual in everyday America make
>rules? Hell no, not
>outside of our own homes.

>But I also know
>that everything isn't peaches and
>cream when it comes to
>the lawmaking process or even
>more specifically the prison system.
> Yea segregation was legal
>and hundreds apon hundreds of
>people had to die, suffer,
>and fight to change that.
> Just as with everything
>else.

So what is your argument with me. I haven't for one second diverged from what you have said above.

>My argument with the death penalty
>is, if it wasn't so
>subjective, so plagued with horrible
>mistakes, and countless error laiden
>rulings, I could stand it
>more so than I do
>now.

so we do agree completely then.

>Yes I beleive that killing is
>wrong, no matter who does
>it. But I can't
>fathom killing someone whose innocent.

exactly.

> So if there's no
>way to full proof the
>system, why shouldn't it be
>disregarded and another alternative put
>in its place.

Again, no quarrel.

>and as for natural law...i'm referring
>to the natural law of
>God.

That argument doesn't hold water with me in this debate.

>You wanna read debates on it...there's
>an entire book dedicated to
>it....the Bible.

There is little debate in the Bible over what God's law is. It's completely one sided from God's point of view. No one makes a good case for going against his laws. Everyone who opts out of his plan is damned to hell.

If I control the rules of the game, I can always win.

one
k. orr

>Get out of here. You
>can not be serious.
>Please list these so called effective
>processes, and you're understanding of
>penal history.

It all goes back to rehabilitation. Changing the situation, thought process or outlook of individuals. I refuse to beleive that imprisonment (as it exists today in America)is the most effective form of rehabilitation.

>>in theory yes. the realities
>>of prison however are far
>>from what they "should" be.
>> What other alternative is
>>presented tho? I'm not
>>saying that i beleive you
>>shouldn't be punished if you
>>do wrong...
>
>Are you sure?

I may have a disdain for the penal system as it exists today but as i've said before I know there is a need for one. I'm not for anarchy nor am I an advocate of violence or people breaking laws deliberately.

>So what is your argument with
>me. I haven't for
>one second diverged from what
>you have said above.

No argument, but when i agree/disagree with someone I am interested in what they have to say and their reasoning behind it.

>>and as for natural law...i'm referring
>>to the natural law of
>>God.
>
>That argument doesn't hold water with
>me in this debate.

that's another debate all together and I am not the one hold it with. I was merely trying to look at it from a moral standpoint.

>There is little debate in the
>Bible over what God's law
>is. It's completely one
>sided from God's point of
>view. No one makes
>a good case for going
>against his laws. Everyone
>who opts out of his
>plan is damned to hell.

Yes your right, and even though I feel as though the Bible is plagued with inconsistancies and errors that came via man...some of it's basic principals I do live by.

>If I control the rules of
>the game, I can always
>win.
True. I guess I just don't mind playing.

You can debate with me anytime. I like intelligent brothas who know where they stand.

You should go check out native.
Peace.
MahoganyB

'Learn the rules so you know how to break them properly.'
-Dali Lama

http://nativemagazine.com
Are you a native?
I am.

>
>>What do you think of Thurgood
>>Marshall's precedent that it's better
>>to let 100 guilty men
>>go free then punish one
>>innocent?
>
>I'd prefer 100 guilty men go
>free. But that's how
>are system is designed.
>It predisposes the person to
>innocence.
>

Who's an idealist now? That's how are system is supposed to work but in reality a black or latino person as guilty as soon as a racist cop pulls him over. Our system is supposed to predispose a person towards innocence, but we are all too intelligent to believe that this is reality.

-Ryan

"Police don't sweep to get the dust out
They want your name in the system,
I need to mention the death penalty is
legal lynchin
People listen, they got teenagers up in
the line up
To fill the new facility they built,
they need the crime up
Please, the war on drugs is really war
on the youth
War on the people
War on the truth
The violent crimes rise,
the silent dies as sirens cry through
the night
People fight for what's left and not
what's right"

-Talib Kweli

>Who's an idealist now?

There are all sorts of safeguards in our legal system that address the rights of the accused. But unless you're familiar with other legal systems and their downfalls you wouldn't catch em. There are plenty of countries where you are considered guilty until your proven innocent.

peace
k. orr

>You are going to have type
>1 and type 2 errors
>
>
>type 1 - guilty go free
>
>type 2 - innocent are punished.

I agree but is this ok? Do we just adapt and deal with it or try to make changes?

>So you would not punish james
>byrd's killers with the death
>penalty? Sorry, them
>boys deserve to die.

Maybe so, but who really should be judging rather individuals deserve to live or die. I figure those two would suffer a helluva lot more if they were to spend the rest of their lives in prison. Especially if the prison system was about rehabilitation.

>You wouldn't execute a chronic
>wife abuser who ultimately murdered
>his wife? I know
>I would in a heartbeat.

no questions, no answers, no probing of the problem, no chance for rehabilitation...just kill'em all. No one wants a loved one taken from them but I'd rather see the person live a lifetime of hell on earth rather than escape it with death.

>that's where you and I differ.
> I've worked in the
>criminal justice system, for a
>defense attorney. Nothing is
>as idealistic as you cats
>are making it out to
>be.

for some people it never is.

**My interest is in the future because I'm going to be spending the rest of my life there.
-Charles Kettering

>What I don't believe in is
>an injustice system which systematically
>finds poor and minority citizens
>on death row.
>
>And since we can't have justice,
>I would vote against any
>death penalty measures.

I thought I knew what u were saying here, but your other responses threw me off. Do you mean (1) you'd vote for KEEPING the death penalty if it ever came into question or (2) that you're opposed to it BECAUSE the poor/minority populations are overrepresented on death row?

just askin

L.


PURPLE REIGN!!!!!!!!!!! CONGRATS RAVENS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"There are no atheists in foxholes" (c) Any Given Sunday

I <3 Freestyle!!

"if and when blind, you will hear/drops of water reflecting off your skin/
the subtle bounces magnified into drum pounding/gateway splitting, roaring and consuming, yet soothing/echos of your losses" ~~jesmar

"some(t(hing) -o) m(o(t(ivate) -he) ) -ind t(o never stop) -hinkin' and c(reating) (-ause) -reat(i(on) -s) l(ife and)ife is reproduced th(rough) fresh (-houghts) -hat c(ome, when you let ) -reativity find you.." ~~Giovanni

"I'm from the land where a man who calls himself Jesus and drives a stolen car" ~~SayNoGo

"how can she sing/holy songs/'bout baby jesus/and mary/and not come/and save me from choking/on sweet youth mixed with mildew/that keeps clinging to my memories/cause this ain't the first time/grandma forget to save me and/my momma forgot to save me.../just always said "jesus wants you to save your flowers"/but my jesus forgot to save me too" ~~beyond_levels

>Do you mean (1) you'd
>vote for KEEPING the death
>penalty if it ever came
>into question

I would vote it down, if it came to a vote.

or (2) that
>you're opposed to it BECAUSE
>the poor/minority populations are overrepresented
>on death row?

I am opposed to the death penalty because the American injustice system routinely penalizes the poor/minority populations, by finding them guilty when they aren't, and being harsher with sentencing. The whole system is stacked against us from legislation, enforcement, and to prosecution, despite constitutional protections.

This is also why I'm against hate crime legislation. Not all inter-racial crime is motivated by race, but say a black man kills a white man and they find a dead prez tape in his car....

But as a philosophical/moral point, some folks deserve to die for their crimes. But we as a society can't improve our system to eliminate major statistical variances.

The real difference on this group is that folks don't believe that any crime merits death, or at least that's what the truly principled argue. Others are kinda wishy washy.

peace
k. orr

I just looked at the date of the original post. This must have gotten pushed up while the boards were screwed up.

L.

PURPLE REIGN!!!!!!!!!!! CONGRATS RAVENS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"There are no atheists in foxholes" (c) Any Given Sunday

I <3 Freestyle!!

"if and when blind, you will hear/drops of water reflecting off your skin/
the subtle bounces magnified into drum pounding/gateway splitting, roaring and consuming, yet soothing/echos of your losses" ~~jesmar

"some(t(hing) -o) m(o(t(ivate) -he) ) -ind t(o never stop) -hinkin' and c(reating) (-ause) -reat(i(on) -s) l(ife and)ife is reproduced th(rough) fresh (-houghts) -hat c(ome, when you let ) -reativity find you.." ~~Giovanni

"I'm from the land where a man who calls himself Jesus and drives a stolen car" ~~SayNoGo

"how can she sing/holy songs/'bout baby jesus/and mary/and not come/and save me from choking/on sweet youth mixed with mildew/that keeps clinging to my memories/cause this ain't the first time/grandma forget to save me and/my momma forgot to save me.../just always said "jesus wants you to save your flowers"/but my jesus forgot to save me too" ~~beyond_levels

"When you're in prison for life, death is your parole."

The death penalty is wrong. And it's the easy way out for the criminal.

One of the main arguements for capital punishment is that it scares people into not committing murder. Bullshit. We don't have the death penalty in Canada, and who's murder rate per capita is lower? Ours. Plus, every criminal psychologist knows this: When a person is committing the act or planning for the act of murder. They are not even considering the punishment. They are either SURE that they will get away or they aren't thinking about it at all, just on killing.

Just thought I'd throw that in there . . .

Giving you true calcio since 1986

Marinera . . . It's a damn tasty sauce y'all . . .

AIM: Marinera81
MAIL: jonah_b27@hotmail.com

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i am in favor of the death penalty.. but would i be able to sentence someone to die if i were on a jury in a murder trial?
i don't know if i could.

but look at what some of the people on death row did to earn their place there.

a man breaks into a woman's home. forces her to watch him kill her two small children and then kills her. how can i not want this man to die? i cannot support the idea that my tax dollars are being given to feed, clothe, entertain, and educate this man for the rest of his natural life..

what about the white men that dragged James Bird to his death?
what about people who kidnap, sexually attack and murder children?

the brutality of the crimes that some death row inmates committed can ONLY be truly punished by executing them. hell, if i had my way, it would be possible to kill them in the same manor that they killed their victims.

i feel like i have to support the death penalty.

***************
i'll hafta think of something else to go here. jerks.

>hell, if
>i had my way, it
>would be possible to kill
>them in the same manor
>that they killed their victims.

that makes you as bad as them.

so should you be sentenced to death too then, after killing that person ?

that's revenge, not justice



krewcial
http://www.vinylators.com

isn't that what justice is? revenge?
it is the job of the judicial system to avenge a wrong on behalf of the victim.

***************
i'll hafta think of something else to go here. jerks.

Should blacks be enslaving caucasians? Should Native-Americans begin a genocidal agenda? You see what's wrong with the eye for an eye idealogy?

And if we're approaching crime in this mentality, we should go all out. Fuck puttin child molesters in jail, shit.. strap em down and molest THEM. Car jackers? repossess THEIR car (well.. if they have one) instead of incarcerating them. Assault offenders? Pop them in the face a few times and let em go

But murder is a different story, right.. it's the worst offense there is, so OF COURSE there should be a different, harsher punishment. Murder is an unforgivable sin. Wait.. then what does that make capital punishment....??

'Not merely a concrete test of the underlying principles of the great republic is the Negro Problem, and the spiritual striving of the freedmen's sons is the travail of souls whose burden is almost beyond the measure of their strength, but the name of this land of their fathers' fathers, and in the name of human opportunity'-- W.E.B. Du Bois

>Should blacks be enslaving caucasians?
>Should Native-Americans begin a genocidal
>agenda? You see what's
>wrong with the eye for
>an eye idealogy?

Not actually...

>
>And if we're approaching crime in
>this mentality, we should go
>all out. Fuck puttin
>child molesters in jail, shit..
>strap em down and molest
>THEM.

Hmm, perhaps.

Car jackers?
>repossess THEIR car (well.. if
>they have one) instead of
>incarcerating them. Assault offenders?
> Pop them in the
>face a few times and
>let em go

Maybe you're onto something.

>But murder is a different story,
>right.. it's the worst offense
>there is, so OF COURSE
>there should be a different,
>harsher punishment. Murder is
>an unforgivable sin. Wait..
>then what does that make
>capital punishment....??

Justice?

k. orr

>>Should blacks be enslaving caucasians?
>>Should Native-Americans begin a genocidal
>>agenda? You see what's
>>wrong with the eye for
>>an eye idealogy?
>
>Not actually...

It's funny to be writing this right after MLK day, but this quote has to be given.

"An eye for an eye makes the world blind."

Is the code of Hammurabai STILL what we want to promote, even now after all historical evidence to the contrary?

Alek

____________________________
"All I want is some truth,
just gimme some truth."

let's jsut have every criminal simply apologize for what they did and then they can get on with their lives.

criminal law/religious law, whatever you wanna call it, puts the business of REVENGE in the hands of a power higher than yourself.

vengeance is mine sayeth the lord according to God's law... and in this case of man's law, vengeance belongs to to criminal justice system..

personally i am satisfied with taking away a person's freedom for a specific amount of time for crimes committed.. so if my words led you to believe that i would be okay with a car theif having his car stolen as punishment, or enslavement of white people as punishment for the enslavement of black people (although if there was a way to reanimate actual slave OWNERS and do this, i would support it).. my personal exception to this is in the case of cold-blooded murder..cold-blooded murder should be punishable by death. i believe that..

i am not talking about those who are wrongfully convicted of this crime.. i am saying.. cold-blooded murderers should be put to death. you may argue that this makes me a murderer, too..but does that make correctional officers and wardens kidnappers? does it make them sweatshop overlords because inmates are made to work for peanuts daily? what do we do with criminals, then.. send them to camp? vacation?

***************
i'll hafta think of something else to go here. jerks.

>criminal law/religious law, whatever you wanna
>call it, puts the business
>of REVENGE in the hands
>of a power higher than
>yourself.

Ideally, it's a lot more than revenge.

>vengeance is mine sayeth the lord
>according to God's law... and
>in this case of man's
>law, vengeance belongs to to
>criminal justice system..

vengence among other things

> personally i am satisfied with
>taking away a person's freedom
>for a specific amount of
>time for crimes committed.. so
>if my words led you
>to believe that i would
>be okay with a car
>theif having his car stolen
>as punishment, or enslavement of
>white people as punishment for
>the enslavement of black people
>(although if there was a
>way to reanimate actual slave
>OWNERS and do this, i
>would support it).. my personal
>exception to this is in
>the case of cold-blooded murder..cold-blooded
>murder should be punishable by
>death. i believe that..

Aiight.. I'll tell you the fallacies I see in that exception

>i am not talking about those
>who are wrongfully convicted of
>this crime.. i am saying..
>cold-blooded murderers should be put
>to death. you may argue
>that this makes me a
>murderer, too..but does that make
>correctional officers and wardens kidnappers?
>does it make them sweatshop
>overlords because inmates are made
>to work for peanuts daily?
>what do we do with
>criminals, then.. send them to
>camp? vacation?

Correctional officers and wardens aren't kidnappers because they didn't actually kidnap anybody.. sweatshop overlords? yeah. Does the law kidnap 'criminals'? Yep.. but the reasoning behind the kidnapping is a lot stronger than the reasoning behind the murdering. This 'kidnapping' occurs as ways of prevention, deterrents, rehabilitation, as well as this idea of 'revenge'. Executions eliminate all of these implications except revenge.. and even if you find murder ethical, the justice system has far too many flaws to run an agenda of death that only exists for revenge


'Not merely a concrete test of the underlying principles of the great republic is the Negro Problem, and the spiritual striving of the freedmen's sons is the travail of souls whose burden is almost beyond the measure of their strength, but the name of this land of their fathers' fathers, and in the name of human opportunity'-- W.E.B. Du Bois

don't really have nothing to do with each other in the US. what is "ethical" is relative to whomever you're asking.

is abortion "ethical"? depends on who you ask
is it "ethical" to allow homosexuals to adopt children? to marry? depends on who you ask

is it "ethical" to put a cold-blooded murderer to death? depends on who you ask
***************
i'll hafta think of something else to go here. jerks.

It goes back to how much value you put into one's life.. between different people it fluctuates. Same thing with a fetus or an animal. I'm just not seein the line between a 'cold-blooded' murder and capital punishment. They're both fueled on mostly lofty sentiment rather than reason. I just don't see it

hmm.. is it ethical that mostly the poor and black are being put to death? After examining the past, as well as the present, do you really trust this system enough to go on a lethal vendetta?

'Not merely a concrete test of the underlying principles of the great republic is the Negro Problem, and the spiritual striving of the freedmen's sons is the travail of souls whose burden is almost beyond the measure of their strength, but the name of this land of their fathers' fathers, and in the name of human opportunity'-- W.E.B. Du Bois

if you ask me whether i think the death penalty is used fairly, my answer will be no.
but instead of getting rid of the death penalty altogether, let's see what can be done to make sure that it is used fairly.
that's all i'm saying.

***************
i'll hafta think of something else to go here. jerks.

Reformation's most likely is equivalent to bandaids on fatal lacerations.. ESPECIALLY in this case. To truly reform is to eliminate centuries of prejudices dogmatically instilled within America.. this is NOT the place to have a system of death running on vengence in.. in fact, such a place doesn't exist

'Not merely a concrete test of the underlying principles of the great republic is the Negro Problem, and the spiritual striving of the freedmen's sons is the travail of souls whose burden is almost beyond the measure of their strength, but the name of this land of their fathers' fathers, and in the name of human opportunity'-- W.E.B. Du Bois

what about the people who were proved guilty but were truely innocent? You can't go back, or realise them, the state has taken their life and what are you supposed to say? - sorry?
These situations do arise once in a while, we all hear about it but fortunately in some places - the death penalty is not an option.

i am sure that no one here is in favor of convicting anyone of a crime they did not commit.. whether they be sentenced to jail time or death is irrelevant. what i am speaking about are the truly guilty.

***************
i'll hafta think of something else to go here. jerks.

I dont agree with our Capital Punishment laws!
It's kind of funny to me that Pres Elect Dubyah is extreamly anti abortion and wants to save the babies, but doesnt think twice to end a criminals life, fair trial or not (remember sankofa). But at the same time, I'm pro-choice as well as anti death penalty. (I think my reasons are justified though, i'll start a post after this dies).

Fo Shizzle

Everyone has a gut, emotional response to the death penalty. A lot of the time a crime pisses people off so much that they want to see someone pay, but that's where this ish gets to be a problem...if you don't pay attention to how the death penalty actually works in this country, you just might support it. However, you should know that by supporting the death penalty, you are supporting a system which punishes (often innocent) people based on racism, classism, and a demand for vengeance that will never be satisfied no matter how many people the government kills.

We all should know (if you don't, where have you been?) that in the U.S., Black and Latino men are more likely to go to jail for any crime, and their punishments tend to be much more severe (that's why crack has stiffer penalties than powder cocaine ... crack appears more in Black communities, and powder is used by more white people). This applies to the death penalty, too, where Black and Latino men are over-represented on death row. It should be no surprise that a Black man convicted of killing a white man is much more likely to get the death penalty than a Black or white man who killed a Black man, especially since the states with the highest number of executions are in the South (Texas, Virginia, and Florida are by far the top three). In many cases, the death penalty is a modern, "legal" version of lynch law. (By the way, I'm not trying to ignore women here, but there are far fewer cases where women are put on death row, which is why I keep talking about men.)

It has been said that the basis of capital punishment is, "Those who lack the capital get the punishment." Poor people are much more likely to be executed, because they can't afford a good lawyer and death penalty cases are very complicated. Public defenders are usually not enough, and in some places, they are horrible. There are many cases where the defendant's lawyer in death cases has slept through parts of the trial, failed to call key witnesses to prove innocence, or been drunk in court. Columiba University just did a study which showed that between 1973-1995, 2,370 death penalty convictions had to be thrown out on appeal because of unfair trials -- that's about 70% of the cases. However, the law is changing so unfair trials are less likely to be overturned. In 1995, Clinton signed the Antiterrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act, which severely restricts the rights of people on death row to appeal based on unfair trail procedures, and the U.S. Supreme Court refuses to overturn capital convictions from state courts no matter how blatantly clear it is that a trial was wrong, because they don't want to interfere with a state's right to deliver "justice" it's own way. Politicians are so bloodthirsty that they often don't care if the person who gets executed actually commited the crime, and that means that quite a few innocent people face lethal injections.

One of the biggest things that people don't know is that it actually costs more to execute a person than to lock him up for the rest of his life. This is because of the complicated court process in death cases ... sure, we could eliminate this and save a lot of money, but then we're really diving into the old lynch law, killing people without a real trial.

A lot of people argue for the death penalty as a deterrant, but if this is the case, then why is the murder rate so much higher in the South than the Northeast? The South has many more executions than the Northeast, where many states don't even have the death penalty. Death row doesn't seem to be slowing murder in the South; I think it actually encourages murder, because if the government can murder someone for doing something wrong, why wouldn't a citizen feel like he can do the same thing? Also, the deterrant argument falls apart because almost nobody commits a crime thinking that he'll be caught, so he isn't considering the punishment he might get ... he expects not to get punished.

Sorry this was so long, but there's a lot to talk about with the death penalty, and it's never simple. If you want more, there's a great article at

http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20010108&s=sherrill

Peace.

In my above post, I didn't support the death penalty because it's was inexact and skewed against poor folks and minorities especially. I have a lot of first hand experience with how the justice system in the deep south works against blacks and Mexicans.

But protecting our brethren from the state is far more complicated than that.

but let's get specific.

(that's why crack
>has stiffer penalties than powder
>cocaine ... crack appears more
>in Black communities, and powder
>is used by more white
>people).

When you look at the legislative history of the rock cocaine vs powder cocaine, it was the Black community that asked the legislators for laws that would clean up the community. WE wanted harsher penalties in our neighborhoods to deter crime and keep those same criminals off our streets.

So what you're saying is that you are against law abiding citizens in our own community who don't want to see drug dealers in our neighborhoods.

You want to attack a cancer after it's metastasized, as opposed to addressing diet and exercise and early screening.

>It should be no surprise
>that a Black man convicted
>of killing a white man
>is much more likely to
>get the death penalty than
>a Black or white man
>who killed a Black man,

The statistical evidence presented in that GA trial, which is the one you are referring to, was not conclusive.

>especially since the states with
>the highest number of executions
>are in the South (Texas,
>Virginia, and Florida are by
>far the top three).

That has a historical legacy.

>In many cases, the death
>penalty is a modern, "legal"
>version of lynch law.

Semantic question, but what lynch law are you referring too. Mob Lynchings were definitely illegal, but they were tolerated like jaywalking and speeding.

>It has been said that the
>basis of capital punishment is,
>"Those who lack the capital
>get the punishment." Poor
>people are much more likely
>to be executed, because they
>can't afford a good lawyer
>and death penalty cases are
>very complicated.

Another semantic issue, Often they aren't more complicated than assaults or rapes, but the stakes are much higher.

Public defenders
>are usually not enough, and
>in some places, they are
>horrible.

P.D's are often good attorneys that are overworked. I knew the public defender in the Lacresha Murray trial (it was on 60 minutes), Cameron Johnson. He was a good attorney, but he didn't have the resources to defend Ms. Murray. Her family couldn't afford anything else.

There are many
>cases where the defendant's lawyer
>in death cases has slept
>through parts of the trial,

A few cases, one of which was recently publicized.

>failed to call key witnesses
>to prove innocence, or been
>drunk in court. Columiba
>University just did a study
>which showed that between 1973-1995,
>2,370 death penalty convictions had
>to be thrown out on
>appeal because of unfair trials
>-- that's about 70% of
>the cases. However, the
>law is changing so unfair
>trials are less likely to
>be overturned.

The law? I should bust a Spirit, and not engage in these discussions with folks that don't know Law. But most death penalty cases are state matters, so there are at least 50 laws to contend with.

In 1995,
>Clinton signed the Antiterrorism and
>Effective Death Penalty Act, which
>severely restricts the rights of
>people on death row to
>appeal based on unfair trail
>procedures, and

the U.S. Supreme
>Court refuses to overturn capital
>convictions from state courts no
>matter how blatantly clear it
>is that a trial was
>wrong,

First of all the US Supreme court doesn't decide facts, it decides were laws applied and executed, and sometimes were the laws appropriate in the 1st case.

Second, the Supreme Court doesn't look at every death sentence appeal. The only time a Court takes the case is if the question interests them. There are few cases that get automatic S.C. review.

because they don't want
>to interfere with a state's
>right to deliver "justice" it's
>own way.

State's rights, although really a euphemism for the racist power structure, are nonetheless important. Study the constitution. AT one point the Federal government, via the commerce clause, wanted to control what farmers could feed their livestock. (It was during the depression era, and the case was about crop surplusses)

Politicians are
>so bloodthirsty that they often
>don't care if the person
>who gets executed actually commited
>the crime, and that means
>that quite a few innocent
>people face lethal injections.

True.

>One of the biggest things that
>people don't know is that
>it actually costs more to
>execute a person than to
>lock him up for the
>rest of his life.

Most folks in this forum know this. But if it were the other way around, would your argument be important. Should we be worrying about the financial side of this argument at all? You want to cut costs on death penalty cases, give them 6 months to file an appeal, and schedule quick executions.

>This is because of the
>complicated court process in death
>cases ... sure, we could
>eliminate this and save a
>lot of money, but then
>we're really diving into the
>old lynch law, killing people
>without a real trial.

no doubt.

>A lot of people argue for
>the death penalty as a
>deterrant,

most folks don't.

but if this is
>the case, then why is
>the murder rate so much
>higher in the South than
>the Northeast? The South
>has many more executions than
>the Northeast, where many states
>don't even have the death
>penalty. Death row doesn't
>seem to be slowing murder
>in the South; I think
>it actually encourages murder, because
>if the government can murder
>someone for doing something wrong,
>why wouldn't a citizen feel
>like he can do the
>same thing?

I'm sure that's what most killers are thinking when they are committing a murder.

Also, the
>deterrant argument falls apart because
>almost nobody commits a crime
>thinking that he'll be caught,
>so he isn't considering the
>punishment he might get ...
>he expects not to get
>punished.

Thus it's not an argument.

>Sorry this was so long, but
>there's a lot to talk
>about with the death penalty,
>and it's never simple.
>If you want more, there's
>a great article at

But do people need to be punished for their actions?

Is prison even really a good solution for folks who do not want to follow the rules of society?

It is very easy for folks to argue from a practical/substantive way about how the justice system affects people of color and the poor. But what about the principle?

peace
k. orr

great posts, thanks for the insight. my question is similiar to k.orr's, we can agree that in application the death penalty(and even the justice system) is problematic and riddled with injustice, but what about the principle of the death penalty and prisons themselves? if we could clean up all the problems in application, is this they type of system we would want?

native son

who is to say someone deserves to be punished
thats crazy its always more complex than the information everyone gathers from the individual crime(s)

my opinion in some of these cases is that they died long before they commited them .

they give them the chair or injection but the energy is still there plus whatever negative energy was there in the execution

as far as punishing someone for what theyv done- why?
that does no good

but punishing someone to keep them from repeating the crimes is different

i dont think u can fight murder with murder or hate with hate
let them talk talk to them
find some understanding and learning
give them a book

one book can turn someone 180 degrees

they keep killing the killers without finding out why they did it
what good is that?


i babyl on long enuff

..peace

That sums up capital punishment quite nicely. And it's pretty illogical too.

Another argument is that if someone murdered a loved one you'd want them dead. That is very true.

If someone close to me was brutally murdered more than likely I would want that person dead too.

But the state shouldn't do the killing for me. I should be the one doing the killing. Capital Punishment then becomes state sanctioned vigilantism.

Odd, don'tcha think?

Adding my two cents (and no, I don't want change back!)

"If you can't dazzle them with your brilliance, baffle them with your bullshit."

-Mr. Kettenbeil, my 11th grade technical writing teacher

*Giving you true stupidness since... well, since I got here* :D

Sorry folks, they cut off the subject for my post which is...

Killing Is Wrong And For That We Will Kill You

Adding my two cents (and no, I don't want change back!)

"If you can't dazzle them with your brilliance, baffle them with your bullshit."

-Mr. Kettenbeil, my 11th grade technical writing teacher

read this,mainly the last segment
74. Execution
If people were not afraid of death,
Then what would be the use of an executioner?

If people were only afraid of death,
And you executed everyone who did not obey,
No one would dare to disobey you.
Then what would be the use of an executioner?

People fear death because death is an instrument of fate.
When people are killed by execution rather than by fate,
This is like carving wood in the place of a carpenter.
Those who carve wood in place of a carpenter
Often injure their hands. -tao de ching

..peace

the government should not be able to kill people. half the time they arrest the wrong people anyway, they hate to admit they got the wrong guy. its murder to kill anyone against their will unless your own life is in danger. if the government really wants to help soceity, they should provide proper rehabilitation to all prisoners. murderers always always suffer more than the murdered.

If you think about it, there's no logical reason for the death penalty. I have yet to hear a good argument supporting it

'Not merely a concrete test of the underlying principles of the great republic is the Negro Problem, and the spiritual striving of the freedmen's sons is the travail of souls whose burden is almost beyond the measure of their strength, but the name of this land of their fathers' fathers, and in the name of human opportunity'-- W.E.B. Du Bois

a killing that is not in self defence is murder
wether its me or the government doin it

thats it, talkin pieces of shit is where i draw the line - eric cartman

Yeah, you see what I mean? You see what I mean, you motherfuckin crybabies? Get in line punk! You should be studyin your odds instead of studyin me! That's how you lost your first job punk Now get in line, for you get your lil' thick-ass tossed up! Shit! I studied under Bruce Lee nigga -G Killah

Yo, extreme rhyme niggaz, you wastin your time
Fuckin with my niggaz, extrordinary line swishin
your mind out position, tryin to figure this shit
Rewind it and listen quick, you might miss this
Olympic, rap jave-lon, travel beyond, your weak song
Doin this for too long, to not come strong
You're only a pawn of Viet Dong
Tryin to form against mines, you musta just been born
Secluded on a distant farm
This is the real world, where niggaz get shot and shanked
Where there's tremendous pain, you get your frame inflamed
Crushed to dust, by the next man's clutch
-Prodigy

The OkayAyisyen
Crazy Haitian on AIM
email the world's #1 haitian at negmarron@hotmail.com

It's not that easy.

Should it be illegal for the cops to break the speed
limit to catch you while you are breaking the speed limit?

Or to imprison you for illegally imprisoning someone?

etc.

I realize these are not as grave as murder, but nothing
is. The point is that physical equivalence is not moral
equivalence.

F

>Should it be illegal for the
>cops to break the speed
>limit to catch you while you
>are breaking the speed limit?
>
>
>Or to imprison you for illegally
>imprisoning someone?
>
>etc.
>
>I realize these are not as
>grave as murder, but nothing
>is. The point is that
>physical equivalence is not moral
>equivalence.
>
dude

come the FUCK on

you compare breaking a man made law to taking something that is not yours to take because you didnt give it

how is there even a comparison

>a killing that is not in
>self defence is murder
>wether its me or the government
>doin it

I agree. This is one of those issues that I've never been able to see the other side of, no argument for the death penalty has ever made much sense to me. I can't get past the paradox of a government which claims that killing is a crime, and then turns around and kills. For me, it is that simple.

No, neither I nor any of my family/friends have never been the victim of a crime legally punishable by death. And maybe if that happened (God forbid), I'd want the creep who did it to die. But frankly I doubt it.

Where do we get off thinking we can decide who deserves to die and who doesn't? That's a fucked up choice to make.

Enough.

~~~~
http://whatisay.org ... Watch it grow!

peace...One luv 4 hip hop.....DJ Teddy Bear

a link for all the haters and those who got jokes and shit...http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/content.php?id=9155 (LMAO!!!)(peace to negmarron 4 that shit!!)

heres another link, this one to the OKAYcompilation!!!!! this joint is THOROUGHLY BANGIN!!!! either cop it or download it NOW!!!! http://www.urgent.rug.ac.be/vinylators/okaycompilation/download.html


U WANT MY EMAIL ADDRESS?!?!!

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"They owe me whats mine, I show you if you if you lone me ya nine!...These crackers cant stop UHURU" - stic.man (of dead prez) 'dem crazy'

Question:

How do you know my MAN, and i say MAN because they disproportionally recieve the death penalty, actually killed the person(s) he supposively killed?

What are the circumstances of the murder, by this i mean the reason, events leading up to and the life experiences and interactions of both the excused and the victim?

Is their any fashion whatsoever that the death penalty is connected to equity in its usage in the American justice system?
Cause' if you find out there is an equitable fashion, you have just made a truely remarkable discovery.

Plea of insanity, will considering nearly every person on earth suffers from some sort of mental illness, has anyone in there right might committed cold blooded murder that justifies the death penalty?

Victims, those family members of the victim that mourn. But what about the sons, daughter, wifes, husbands, parents and etc. of the man killed by the state? Do they not mourn? Are not they just a continuation in the CHAIN* of victims? *(Tobias Wolfe)


I have barely mentioned a few uncerntainties, of which there are an infinte number, conected with the death penalty. Death is cerntain. So how if you are not sure can you support, or even allow, something that is?

No malice intended, just a walk through my thought process.
Excuse mispelling and bad grammar.
Peace and luv.

American society generally hesitates to admit that our justice system is largely based on retribution. Despite claims of rehabilitation of criminals or deterrence of crime, something like the death penalty can only be described as retribution. It is unfortunate that in so many cases the death penalty serves as retribution merely for being poor and black. Really, what is death row but a warehouse for poor people? In my opinon no problem has ever been solved by attacking only the symptoms and not the cause. You can't keep killing people who commit crimes (if they are even actually guilty) without trying institute changes that will prevent people from committing crimes in the first place. Even aside from the philosophical question of whether we are justified in taking another life, the death penalty just doesn't make sense. We will never stop violent crime, or "protect the American public" by using the death penalty.
Stop the forces that cause once innocent children to grow up into murderers and thieves, and we will find the death penalty unnecessary. I'm not saying that's an easy task, but that's the direction America should be looking in, not building more prisons.

>In my opinon no
>problem has ever been solved
>by attacking only the symptoms
>and not the cause. You
>can't keep killing people who
>commit crimes (if they are
>even actually guilty) without trying
>institute changes that will prevent
>people from committing crimes in
>the first place.

precisely. I think that is the real tragedy of this society. Everyone looks for quick solutions/answers, but never want to go to the root of the problem & kill it where it grows.

Until we do that, we'll never get anywhere.

L.

PURPLE REIGN!!!!!!!!!!! CONGRATS RAVENS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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"how can she sing/holy songs/'bout baby jesus/and mary/and not come/and save me from choking/on sweet youth mixed with mildew/that keeps clinging to my memories/cause this ain't the first time/grandma forget to save me and/my momma forgot to save me.../just always said "jesus wants you to save your flowers"/but my jesus forgot to save me too" ~~beyond_levels

OK BYE
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
}>Alyse ~ Cleveland's Finest:P

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________________________________
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