if you're just going to live life however you choose anyway, why bother?

is your talk the same as your walk? how close ARE you to walking a straight path or do you meander then explain away your missteps? is the plank in YOUR eye keeping you from looking in the mirror?

while perfection may or may not be attainable, what's the point of profession without practice?

what's the point of saying you believe, if you only say it? does your belief extend into the type of faith that will manufest itself beyond you just claiming the title of believer?

what kind of inspiration are you for others? it's easy to say "them chiristians", "them muslims", "them whitefolk", them jews", "them religious folks", "them non-believers", "them whoever....". but what about YOU? are you really THAT much different, or do you just think/say you are?

dig deeper.....

Love God and do what you will.

Catch me? Not fair, you've heard this before.

Peace.

There's no sense in being precise when you don't even know what you're talking about.
-- John von Neumann

just trying to bring a lil order/sensibility to the mix

that said, as much as i love you, that answer IS a bit shortsighted cause it doesn't work that way.

for most the methodology is where the trouble starts

but my thing is, how you gonna tell somebody how to follow THEIR God if you are doing a halfway job of following yours?

i marvel at THESE folks, cause they don't even fake it. out of one side of their mouth it's all sorts of whatever, out the otherside "God/God/God" or "dothis/do this/do this".

It doesn't have to degenerate into "everyone do what you like", but all i'm saying is that many of us spend more time making smoke than burning.

it ain't just religion

it could be:

don't be an elitist, but you roll with some clique (real or otherwise)

whitey is racist, but you think he's the debbil

women are hoes, but you try to run up in every female (or male for that matter)

men are dogs, but you want someone who can pay your bills

such and such musician is wack, but you cry about folk being "backpakers" of somesuch when they don't like

gays are immoral, but you screwing everything YOU can

right is right, wrong is wrong and that's fine for each to determine on their own, but fakeness/posturing is T-I-R-E-D
(but then again, preaching is too huh :-) )

i'm a vegetarian, have been for over 10 years
barely eat processed foods
stay active
got rid of the tv about halfa year ago, avoided it and the radio (except for npr) like the plague for a long time before that

but:
i smoked a packa cigarrettes a day (menthol, mind you) for about the same 10 years, was high every day for many of them, and often had a drink in my hand

now that i quit smoking, i can't stand the smell.
i hate seeing my friends and family really really drunk

so i'm a definate hypocrite.

as for religion, i keep sayin it's all the same thing. people (includin me) feel a special connection w/ somethin greater or a need for sumthin bigger, and religion gratifies that. spirituality gratifies it, actually, and religion adds rules to it.

but as much as i try to be accepting there are some things in every religion that deeply offend me, for example, the christian notion that bad things only happen to guily people.



==**peace**==

"Words without work is not enough." Sizzla

There is more danger in the word exotic than in a sharpened machete --me

"The logic of divide and rule is still valid today." Capleton

DPP; DomePoem Poets; Vibe Nation; One ppl under the spoken word

>but as much as i try
>to be accepting there are
>some things in every religion
>that deeply offend me, for
>example, the christian notion that
>bad things only happen to
>guily people.

again, the slippery slope.

who told you that? the doctrine of the religion itself, or a "follower"? see my point. christian dotrine say exactly the opposite. in fact it goes so far as to say the harder you try to do/act right the more hurdles you will probably face (living a life like Christ)

way to many people listening, but not investigating. 90% of the people who tell you what the bible/quran/whatever says have NEVER read it, much less studied it. but they are quick to spew whatever they "heard", but then they'll turn around and tell you not to believe everything you hear.

by the way, i got this bridge in brooklyn that i'd like to sell ya.

knameen?

Peace!!!!!!

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psalms

somewhere in the book of psalms

after attending every confirmation class at the church that i grew up in and talking extensively with the priest, i chose not to be confirmed. then, after about 6 or 7 years i was upset about sumthin and decided to check out bill clinton's church cuz it's near enuf to where i live. i stayed for a little while until the baskets were bein passed. then i started readin the ol book. openned straight to psalms, and that was about the second psalm i read. walked right back outta the church and don't wanna return unless i go to an ethiopian or russian church, so that i can feel the atmosphere of the place without hearin all that crazy talk.

that's not the first time i've walked out of a church, either. every damned time i start to read onna the books there i leave.


==**peace**==

"Words without work is not enough." Sizzla

There is more danger in the word exotic than in a sharpened machete --me

"The logic of divide and rule is still valid today." Capleton

DPP; DomePoem Poets; Vibe Nation; One ppl under the spoken word

>somewhere in the book of psalms

that's why it's a slippery slope. what about the part where Paul and David (who as, i'm sure you know, wrote Psalms) say that "though the righeous may suffer"?

you gotta look at the totality of scripture, just not a piece. the reason why is the same that would be given if somone picked a random sentence out of ANY book (secular or otherwise) and built lessons/teaching from there about the entire document.

and even then (after study), you may still decide not to follow any particular path set forth, as is your want due to the whole "free will" thing", but don't miss my point: you can't preach/teach wat you don't do yourself. or at best, it's harder to expect folk to pay you any attention if you are all over the place.

the bible

but i don't believe there was any heavy effect of context in the part i was reading

but it's true that i haven't had the patience to read enough of the bible to be able to speak on it.

it's also true that the reason why i don't have that patience is because the book keeps pissin me off



==**peace**==

"Words without work is not enough." Sizzla

There is more danger in the word exotic than in a sharpened machete --me

"The logic of divide and rule is still valid today." Capleton

DPP; DomePoem Poets; Vibe Nation; One ppl under the spoken word

like anything else, I think we have to look at the context of the writer and his time frame when we read them. But yeah, they're cool, actually, very ferocious. Rarely do you read "God watches over and protects me" without finding side by side with that something along the lines of "And he makes sure that my enemies get punished and in front of me, too, so I get to enjoy it."

David was a very conflicted man, but a good poet. So no matter how infused he was with the holy spirit, a little of his personal conflict was bound to spill into his writing.

I find that people in any given religion are more or less apt to believe that there is one set of rules and no leeway based on their own personal insecurities and not necessarily the teachings of the religion. This is not confined to Christianity, or any particular branch of Christianity. Buddhist teachers talk about the need to avoid "spiritual materialism" by which they mean the tendency to be sure that "my" way is the only one, and "your" way must therefore be wrong. It all comes down to that thing about seeing different as bad rather than as just different, which is I think a common human failing.

Peace.

There's no sense in being precise when you don't even know what you're talking about.
-- John von Neumann

there are just as many interpretations of the Bible as there are translations of it.

g_love could have very well heard that from someone who knew the Bible well, they were just interpreting it in *their* way.

again, who are the "right" Christians, really? Baptists? Catholics? Episcopalians? Oh...and if it's the Baptists, is it the Free Will Baptists or the Southern Baptist church?

what I'm gathering from you is that we should each take the religious text of our choice and interpret it for ourselves.

is that it? or is there something else?

I'm just trying to figure out where you stand.

L.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"my mama said/it ain't what a lady wears/it's what she knows"~~India Arie

KizzMyBlakAzz: you've made yourself a shell
KizzMyBlakAzz: i know you're soft and gooey on the inside
LHoney17: I know I am....never said I wasn't
LHoney17: but that doesn't mean I get stepped on or that I'm not strong
KizzMyBlakAzz: Gooey
LHoney17: lol
KizzMyBlakAzz: Caramel
KizzMyBlakAzz: Center
LHoney17: lol....well that's a nice way to think of it
KizzMyBlakAzz: with like a hard choclate shell
LHoney17: think I'll put that in a personal ad
KizzMyBlakAzz: You're a Rollo
LHoney17: lmao
KizzMyBlakAzz: lmao

When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love has always won. There have been tyrants and murderers
and for a time they seem invincible but in the end, they always fall -- think of it, ALWAYS. ~~Mahatma Gandhi

>there are just as many interpretations
>of the Bible as there
>are translations of it.

regarding the text, a wise person (and i'm not indicating you as otherwise) will look at them all to determine their difference, and compare as close to the original writings as possible. knowledge is power right?

it's common knowledge that you shouldn't believe something just because i's on paper, so why not get as much info as possible and go from there?

regarding interpretations, again compare them to the text you've deemed reliable, look at the consistency therein (why take the advice of someone who contradicts themselves). also, at some point you have to put your belief/faith in SOMETHING you can't prove 100%, but remember the point of this post is "why fake it". if you wanna be whatever then BE that. don't preach one thing and act differently because it just creates confusion.

>g_love could have very well heard
>that from someone who knew
>the Bible well, they were
>just interpreting it in *their*
>way.

so then, the issue becomes do i trust THEIR interpretation or do i test/compare it to others? From that what is MY interpretation?

>again, who are the "right" Christians,
>really? Baptists? Catholics? Episcopalians? Oh...and
>if it's the Baptists, is
>it the Free Will Baptists
>or the Southern Baptist church?

personally, i'm not a big fan of denominational politics. few who follow a particular denomination really know what seperates one from the other historically or doctinally (merely following tradition). that said, until we stand before God we'll never know. the issue is, while we're here are we gonna walk the walk or just talk the talk. nahmeen?

>what I'm gathering from you is
>that we should each take
>the religious text of our
>choice and interpret it for
>ourselves.

not necessarily. true, each has to choose the steps they'll take on THEIR journey but that doesn't negate being instructed and taught

>I'm just trying to figure out
>where you stand.

actually i'm sitting right about now

thanks so much for clearing some of that up...

>regarding the text, a wise person
>(and i'm not indicating you
>as otherwise) will look at
>them all to determine their
>difference, and compare as close
>to the original writings as
>possible. knowledge is power right?
>
>
>it's common knowledge that you shouldn't
>believe something just because i's
>on paper, so why not
>get as much info as
>possible and go from there?

got u...


>regarding interpretations, again compare them to
>the text you've deemed reliable,
>look at the consistency therein
>(why take the advice of
>someone who contradicts themselves).

ok...

>also,
>at some point you have
>to put your belief/faith in
>SOMETHING you can't prove 100%,
>but remember the point of
>this post is "why fake
>it". if you wanna
>be whatever then BE that.
>don't preach one thing and
>act differently because it just
>creates confusion.

definitely feelin u on this. I understood the general point of your post to the utmost. Still, while I understand the concept of faith and taking leaps based on it, some people can't live like that, you know?


>>g_love could have very well heard
>>that from someone who knew
>>the Bible well, they were
>>just interpreting it in *their*
>>way.
>
>so then, the issue becomes do
>i trust THEIR interpretation or
>do i test/compare it to
>others? From that what is
>MY interpretation?

again, I agree.


>personally, i'm not a big fan
>of denominational politics. few who
>follow a particular denomination really
>know what seperates one from
>the other historically or doctinally
>(merely following tradition).

very very true. but I think some folks here would disagree, and that's what causes a lot of these brawls on this board, u know?


>that said,
>until we stand before God
>we'll never know. the
>issue is, while we're here
>are we gonna walk the
>walk or just talk the
>talk. nahmeen?

I'm feelin u...and that's really the ultimate point anyway.


>not necessarily. true, each has to
>choose the steps they'll take
>on THEIR journey but that
>doesn't negate being instructed and
>taught

still, we need to choose our teachers wisely. and there are a lot of false prophets out there.


>>I'm just trying to figure out
>>where you stand.
>
>actually i'm sitting right about now

smartass :) (in a good way)

peace

L.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"my mama said/it ain't what a lady wears/it's what she knows"~~India Arie

KizzMyBlakAzz: you've made yourself a shell
KizzMyBlakAzz: i know you're soft and gooey on the inside
LHoney17: I know I am....never said I wasn't
LHoney17: but that doesn't mean I get stepped on or that I'm not strong
KizzMyBlakAzz: Gooey
LHoney17: lol
KizzMyBlakAzz: Caramel
KizzMyBlakAzz: Center
LHoney17: lol....well that's a nice way to think of it
KizzMyBlakAzz: with like a hard choclate shell
LHoney17: think I'll put that in a personal ad
KizzMyBlakAzz: You're a Rollo
LHoney17: lmao
KizzMyBlakAzz: lmao

When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love has always won. There have been tyrants and murderers
and for a time they seem invincible but in the end, they always fall -- think of it, ALWAYS. ~~Mahatma Gandhi

I'm not sure you understood. I actually believe that those who truly love God can do exactly as they please because a pure and wholehearted love of God will expand to create love for others, which will result in works that promote healing and more love.

It is truly not only about religion. Truly, truly, because as you know I don't myself believe in an image of God that fits with most mainstream religious metaphors, so if it's all about religion I should have nothing to say here. And on the other hand it is ALL about religion, because religion isn't something that happens for an hour on Sunday or only when you're thinking about it. To put it another way, if you can't invite God to your sex life, you may have things a little out of whack in your life as a whole.

If our religion doesn't express our humanity fully, both in its current reality and in its potential, then we should abandon it and find one that does.

All that being said, I'm hard at work on my temper, and I recently read about Marcel Proust's qualities as a friend and have vowed to change my ways. But I try to keep at least my worst failings in mind, and I try to maintain a practice that promotes understanding, focus and patience. And I try to believe that everyone is doing his or her best.

Peace.

I feel infinite sadness at seeing how few people are genuinely kind. (c) Marcel Proust

Found this when looking for something for Bin on Meister Eckhart:

"People should not worry as much about what they do but rather about what they are. If they and their ways are good, then their deeds are radiant. If you are righteous, then what you do will also be righteous. We should not think that holiness is based on what we do but rather on what we are, for it is not our works which sanctify us but we who sanctify our works."

Yep, that's our friend and Christian mystic, Mister Meister.

Peace.

There's no sense in being precise when you don't even know what you're talking about.
-- John von Neumann

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"my mama said/it ain't what a lady wears/it's what she knows"~~India Arie

KizzMyBlakAzz: you've made yourself a shell
KizzMyBlakAzz: i know you're soft and gooey on the inside
LHoney17: I know I am....never said I wasn't
LHoney17: but that doesn't mean I get stepped on or that I'm not strong
KizzMyBlakAzz: Gooey
LHoney17: lol
KizzMyBlakAzz: Caramel
KizzMyBlakAzz: Center
LHoney17: lol....well that's a nice way to think of it
KizzMyBlakAzz: with like a hard choclate shell
LHoney17: think I'll put that in a personal ad
KizzMyBlakAzz: You're a Rollo
LHoney17: lmao
KizzMyBlakAzz: lmao

When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love has always won. There have been tyrants and murderers
and for a time they seem invincible but in the end, they always fall -- think of it, ALWAYS. ~~Mahatma Gandhi

>"People should not worry as much
>about what they do but
>rather about what they are.

an apple tree will produce apples, a righteous man will produce righteousness

this reminds me of the faith vs. works debate (which i don't have the energy right now to rehash or argue)

although it leaves open the interpretation of the value of one's works.

for example, if i help little old ladies across the street yet beat my wife am i a good or bad person (totally seperate from whatever else, or not?). how much good makes one good, and is this to be compared to the bad i do?

(personal injection following: i say don't worry because ultimately i think that's God's decision)

there are TONS of folk who are heros (ie "good") to some and evil to others. this goes back to the not so old discussion about relativity and allowance.

real pithy statement there though janey my dear

Believe nothing, it's all chance. There is nothing consistent or constant So why even bother try to explain things, using KMT knowledge, Masonic knowledge, 5%, Islamic, Christian... Just prepare for the worst. You will get sick. You will be heart broken. Someone will try to stop you from doing what you want to do. Things aren't going to go right at least once.

Now that you know that most folks go through the worst case scenario, run your life accordingly.

the only absolute is that there are no absolutes.

peace
k. orr

>Believe nothing, it's all chance.

there is a thing as truth. it's just when you start to staple things to it (infernce) is when you get hemmed up.

the very satement you made is in and of itself contradictory.

if it's all chance, why should i believe you? someone MIGHT be wrong, but they might be right? the issue is where do you put your faith (again the faith built on belief thing). and even wider the REAL issue of this post is: if you/me/we KNOW truth, why don't you/me/we live it?

>Now that you know that most
>folks go through the worst
>case scenario, run your life
>accordingly.

again contradiction. how can you say "prepare for the worst" yet also say, it doesn't matter anyway?


>the only absolute is that there
>are no absolutes.

funny. shouldn't that be "the only absolute is that there is only one absolute"?
------QUOTE STARTS HERE------
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Hotep

The constant is change.

TRUTH is UNSPOKEN. (As soon as one speaks, it is lost.)

"Chance" does not exist. It is the best explanation for the unexplainable, thus it is only a sign of ignorance.

A FINITE mind cannot understand the INFINITE.

SPIRIT IS ALL and nothing (NO-THINGS) at the same time. Amen.

PEace
Solarus


"Activism is the practice of using an internal, self-determining source of power to live one's life and/or enact some sort of change. Power is the ability to define reality, while self-determination is to decide or define one's self. Therefore activism, is not simply something done to right some wrong or to fight some cause but rather it is a way of life. Activism is the way of life where one can define self and change anything that may impede or control the reality that one chooses to live."-Solarus

>TRUTH is UNSPOKEN. (As soon as
>one speaks, it is lost.)

so lemme get this straight:

if i'm outside in the rain with no umbrella, dripping, and i say "i'm wet" do i become instantly dry?

interesting....

HOtep

"Truth is an unspoken sound." - Common

"TRUTH is UNSPOKEN. (As soon as one speaks, it is lost.)"

speak-to utter words or articulate sounds with the ordinary voice : TALK b (1) : to express thoughts, opinions, or feelings orally (2) : to extend a greeting (3) : to be on speaking terms <still were not speaking after the dispute> c (1) : to express oneself before a group (2) : to address one's remarks <speak to the issue>


Speaking is a form of communication.

communication:a process by which information is exchanged between individuals through a common system of symbols, signs, or behavior.


My point is that the underlying assumption when one speaks is that there is something other that SELF. SPIRIT is all, All is one. How can it be separate? Speaking admits belief in the illusion which automatically negates the TRUTH.

TRUTH IS...

This is the only way this statement can end or it will become FINITE. Same as I AM or I AM THAT I AM (Yahweh). Existence is...

To further express myself, the Infinity is the only TRUTH. How can one be separate from Infinity? WE THINK WE ARE but AREN'T. This connects all of the previous statements:



"A FINITE mind cannot understand the INFINITE."
We think we "know" but don't, can't. The question is: Who am I?
I AM

""Chance" does not exist. It is the best explanation for the unexplainable, thus it is only a sign of ignorance."

This is a function of the last statement.

"SPIRIT IS ALL and nothing (NO-THINGS) at the same time."

SPIRIT IS...

"Amen"

This derived from KMT concept of the ultimate "diety," "The Great Invisible SPIRIT." It was a reference to the hidden (unknowable) nature of the source of life.

PEace

Solarus


"Activism is the practice of using an internal, self-determining source of power to live one's life and/or enact some sort of change. Power is the ability to define reality, while self-determination is to decide or define one's self. Therefore activism, is not simply something done to right some wrong or to fight some cause but rather it is a way of life. Activism is the way of life where one can define self and change anything that may impede or control the reality that one chooses to live."-Solarus

all that is well and good (my brain is a little fuzzy @ this time, so forgive me for not knowing what you were getting at indirectly), but you didn't answer the question.

Hotep

I answered it as best as possible. "if i'm outside in the rain with no umbrella, dripping, and i say "i'm wet" do i become instantly dry?"


Who is "I'm?"

People say "my body," or "my mind," so who is the "I" that possesses these things?

All I said led up to this conclusion:

You THINK you are a body that is in some EXTERNAL environment that can become "wet."

The TRUTH is that there is no "you," no "outside" and no "water" to wet you. All these things are one thus nothing (NO-THINGS).

Someone brought up "physics." It is interesting to see how Western science is only now beginning to see this TRUTH that the ancients have seen since time immemorial. All these "things" are made of the "substance." "We" (finite minds) can only "perceive" the TRUTH. It's like the way our eyes function. "Light" reflects off an object which reflects onto our lens which is then sent as electrochemical messages to the brain where we process the information. Are we "seeing" the object or are we just "perceiving" a REFLECTION of it?

This may seem like "philosophic chatter" and inconsequential to daily living but it has EVERYTHING to do with daily life. Though this "reality" may not be the TRUTH, it IS the VERY REAL to us and we must act according. This isn't a promotion of "nihilism" or the belief that "nothing matters." Realizing the TRUTH allows one to see the SPIRIT and the connection to ALL THINGS. This negates a "de-spiritualization" of life that we find in the Western world.

Does this answer your question?

PEace
Solarus


"Activism is the practice of using an internal, self-determining source of power to live one's life and/or enact some sort of change. Power is the ability to define reality, while self-determination is to decide or define one's self. Therefore activism, is not simply something done to right some wrong or to fight some cause but rather it is a way of life. Activism is the way of life where one can define self and change anything that may impede or control the reality that one chooses to live."-Solarus

Amen.(Aum)
Yo,

That's exactly what I'm talking about. Physics is elementary compared to the real-izations of he whom the greeks termed hermes trismengestus(sp?).

ALL is in the ALL =>
One is in the ALL =>
All is in One

Or you can say E = MC^2.

Same thing to me.


Peace,

eyezed

Man!!!!!
*exit Chris Tucker voice*

sall good, sun.

Peace

eye-ziggy

that's what I like to see, Solarus...u bringin the knowledge w/out the defensiveness

beautiful...

L.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"my mama said/it ain't what a lady wears/it's what she knows"~~India Arie

KizzMyBlakAzz: you've made yourself a shell
KizzMyBlakAzz: i know you're soft and gooey on the inside
LHoney17: I know I am....never said I wasn't
LHoney17: but that doesn't mean I get stepped on or that I'm not strong
KizzMyBlakAzz: Gooey
LHoney17: lol
KizzMyBlakAzz: Caramel
KizzMyBlakAzz: Center
LHoney17: lol....well that's a nice way to think of it
KizzMyBlakAzz: with like a hard choclate shell
LHoney17: think I'll put that in a personal ad
KizzMyBlakAzz: You're a Rollo
LHoney17: lmao
KizzMyBlakAzz: lmao

When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love has always won. There have been tyrants and murderers
and for a time they seem invincible but in the end, they always fall -- think of it, ALWAYS. ~~Mahatma Gandhi

"REAL RECOGNIZE REAL, and even more than that, the fake, they REALLY REALLY recognize REAL!" -BlackThought

"STAY BLACK,STAY BLACK,STAY BLACK,STAY BLACK" -Mos Def

>>TRUTH is UNSPOKEN. (As soon as one speaks, it is lost.)

what are you talking for then?!? said in the same manner as when that cowboy kickboxer in "Best of the Best" when he asks "what are you counting them for?" you remember the scene.

and seriously, this? come on.

"if i'm outside in the rain with no umbrella, dripping, and i say "i'm wet" do i become instantly dry?"

what the hell??? bad analogy alltogether. don't even waste your time typing abstract responses anymore. directly answer the question. good original post though, one of the best actually, just soured by debate/argument/discussion that didn't reach the same level intended i think. boodah's cool.

Nuwb or "blackness" is supreme balance before the chaos was introduced. It was a state of sound, right reasoning. That darkness was triple darkness, which is what you would call the absence of consciousness, or the state of being awoke. In actuality, the dream state is more real and peaceful than the chaos you meet once you are awake. A form of spiritual darkness responsible for the spark that turned on the light that is the life and intellect of all who breathe and think.
When the light is turned on again, the chaos begins. The differentiation begins. The separation begins. The rights and the wrongs, the goodness and the badness; the supreme balance is broken and the ego begins to verse the "I."

for someone who hasn't contributed

you cool too, i guess, but the point remains that you point to the "lack of whatever within this post" but where is YOUR contribution beyond judgement?

this is exactly what i'm talking about

>>TRUTH is UNSPOKEN. (As soon as
>>one speaks, it is lost.)
>
>so lemme get this straight:
>
>if i'm outside in the rain
>with no umbrella, dripping, and
>i say "i'm wet" do
>i become instantly dry?
>
>interesting....

You kinda do become instantly dry. People make statements to communicate a thought. "I'm wet" or "I have 5 apples" or "Common is a dope MC". When I make these statements, I am trying to get you to think a specific thought. However, as soon as that thought is verbalized, it's not as true as it was in your head.

Let's explain with the "wet" example, cuz the other ones will be too complex and require a lot more physics than I care to delve into momentarily. When you say "I'm wet" your trying to communicate the thought of the amount of water on you, right? (This is an assumption, but I can't think of another option) However (and I'll leave out the enthalpy equation), everyone who took high school physics can tell you that some of the energy you used in emoting, evaporated some of the water. Now, you're not as wet as you were trying to communicate. Hence, the statement is (VERY SLIGHTLY) less than true.

I agree that my logic sounds like word manipulation, but that word "truth" is quite delicate, and implies a link to the absolute. And when you're dealing with the absolute, you have to be 100% correct. That's pretty difficult to do when time is moving forward continuously.

So when someone says "TRUTH IS....", given the limitations of language, and even the speed of sound, or light, or whatever medium, they'll almost always be incorrect, no matter how insignificant it seems.

The conclusion I would draw from that is that there is no truth that will be TOLD to you by any religion. Truth can only be communicated through the medium of experience, in the now time reference. This means that EVERYBODY knows (more specifically "is") the truth (or at least their specific truth).

Peace,

eyezed

An odd result of this theorem is that anyone whose idea of perfection is based on what was taught to them is striving towards a less-than-truth. And they still have trouble practicing what they preach!

I don't necessarily agree that there is a "Truth" as in some Platonic ideal, but in the context in which you made your argument, it made a remarkable amount of sense. Good work. I'm impressed.

Peace.

There's no sense in being precise when you don't even know what you're talking about.
-- John von Neumann

>You kinda do become instantly dry.
>People make statements to communicate
>a thought.

i disagree, to a point with this. sometimes truth can define state (for example, you yourself used in the case where you said you have "5 apples". in the case of the "wet" example there are two states. wet and dry. if you have 4 3/4 apples to me (and by the definition of five) you dont' have five. you may say 4 3/4 is enough, but technically you dont.

as i was thinking, even if you have the slightest degree of wetness you still aren't dry.

this discussion is taking an interesting turn....

I REALLY didn't want to have to go here. Are you gonna make me start posting equations and relating to Uncertainty principles and such?

>
>i disagree, to a point with
>this. sometimes truth can define
>state (for example, you yourself
>used in the case where
>you said you have "5
>apples". in the case of
>the "wet" example there are
>two states. wet and dry.

If this is true, please explain. When is a human "absolutely wet" or "absolutely dry"? You said "as i was thinking, even if you have the slightest degree of wetness you still aren't dry". Isn't the reciprocal true? If you have the slightest degree of dryness, you still aren't wet. Anything dealing with polar opposites will lead us to the argument of relativity (do not pass go, do not collect $200). Which leads us to an unarguable point that absolutes don't exist in the current universe.

>if you have 4 3/4
>apples to me (and by
>the definition of five) you
>dont' have five. you may
>say 4 3/4 is enough,
>but technically you dont.
>

Ok, here is what I meant about language being a barrier to communicate thoughts. Suppose I have what I consider to be 5 apples. In a perfect language, I can have the mental picture of 5 apples I send it to you (in order for this to occur, I describe the 5 apples and the state that they're in i.e. color, weight, structure, etc...). This mental picture I send is the picture of 5 apples. By the time I send my picture, the 5 "apples" that I sent aren't the same at all. In fact, they've lost weight (see radiation)!! So, what I at one time considered to be 5 apples is now less than the mental picture. Hence, I have less than 5 apples. It's not as little as 4 3/4 apples, but it isn't as much as the mental picture of 5 apples I sent.

And, I don't even want to get into a discussion on the wave/particle duality of matter. That just takes it to a whole different level.

>this discussion is taking an interesting
>turn....

Please believe it!


Peace,

eyezed

Am I gonna look like a nerd and lose all my street credentials??

>If this is true, please explain.

by my logic (my post, my logic dammit) there are two states, wet and dry.

wet = !dry (the state called wet equals the state called not dry)
dry = !wet (see above)

>When is a human "absolutely
>wet"

when they are dry

>You said "as i was thinking,
>even if you have the
>slightest degree of wetness you
>still aren't dry". Isn't the
>reciprocal true? If you have
>the slightest degree of dryness,
>you still aren't wet.

perhaps were dancing (it's been a minute since i exercised this brainstem), but is the reciprocal the same as the converse?

>Which leads us to an
>unarguable point that absolutes don't
>exist in the current universe.

isn't it an absolute to say that absolutes don't exist?

same arguement, different person.

>Please believe it!

this is fun. we all nerds (reatively that is). recognize.

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>>If this is true, please explain.
>
>by my logic (my post, my
>logic dammit) there are two
>states, wet and dry.
>
>wet = !dry (the state called
>wet equals the state called
>not dry)
>dry = !wet (see above)
>

I like when people have their OWN logic. You've simply dispelled the idea of continuity, though. Hence, there is no difference between someone who was in the rain for .05 hours and 50 hours. They're both just wet. Otherwise you'd have to state that someone is more not dry (wet) than someone else, and that'll just open up a whole can of worms for your sequencing. Unfortunately, life doesn't work on a stream of 1's and 0's. The idea of a door being open or closed is incorrect. Just like the idea that flipping a coin and it landing heads/tails indefinitely is also incorrect. It's called the particle/wave nature of all that is matter. Since we have this tendency to fluctuate between point existence and fluid existence at a moment's notice, the coin will eventually land on neither heads nor tails. (brings a whole new meaning to being punctual!)

>>When is a human "absolutely
>>wet"
>
>when they are dry
>
>>You said "as i was thinking,
>>even if you have the
>>slightest degree of wetness you
>>still aren't dry". Isn't the
>>reciprocal true? If you have
>>the slightest degree of dryness,
>>you still aren't wet.
>
>perhaps were dancing (it's been a
>minute since i exercised this
>brainstem), but is the reciprocal
>the same as the converse?
>
Are you talking about the converse or the contrapositive? Just kidding. I think I explained above.

>>Which leads us to an
>>unarguable point that absolutes don't
>>exist in the current universe.
>
>isn't it an absolute to say
>that absolutes don't exist?
>
>same arguement, different person.
>

You're right! That is the most contradictory thing I think I've ever read. What kind of an idiot am I? I could try to rephrase, but it'll be just that "re-phrasing". I was really just trying to trick you into giving me an example of an absolute.


>this is fun. we all nerds
>(reatively that is). recognize.

I hope that doesn't get out.

is how you've taken what's essentially second- or third-year college physics (special relativity, general relativity, and their conflicts with quantum theory) and referred to it as "basic physics." man, a lot of people reading this are wondering why they didn't learn this stuff in HS. nice goin! ;-)

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i'll defer to your greater knowledge of particle flux defilibrators (or whatever)

for grins, could you relate all this back to the original post for me?

>i'll defer to your greater knowledge
>of particle flux defilibrators (or
>whatever)
>
>for grins, could you relate all
>this back to the original
>post for me?

Man, I'm just as lost as you are! I'm going home.

Peace

eyezed

>>Believe nothing, it's all chance.
>
>there is a thing as truth.

It's relative and shaped by our world view. 2 + 2 = 4, yeah if you go by a decimal system.

>the very satement you made is
>in and of itself contradictory.

Folks only believe if they think things will go good, or to explain the bad. Why believe when it won't affect the outcome. Do the research, and prepare for what might happen.

>if it's all chance, why should
>i believe you?

You don't have to.

>the issue is
>where do you put your
>faith (again the faith built
>on belief thing).

I put my faith in me, and that's it. Everything else can't be depended on. Hell, I ain't all that reliable, but at least I know what I will do.

and even
>wider the REAL issue of
>this post is: if you/me/we
>KNOW truth, why don't you/me/we
>live it?

What truth are you talking about. It doesn't exist.

>again contradiction. how can you say
>"prepare for the worst" yet
>also say, it doesn't matter
>anyway?

Easily. Following some kinda code, religion, et cetera is basically trying to live your life as harm free as possible. It's a gang of rules and regulations with some carrot at the end. But on an individual and an aggregate level, no one seems to be winning despite what they profess. So none of it works.

>>the only absolute is that there
>>are no absolutes.
>
>funny. shouldn't that be "the only
>absolute is that there is
>only one absolute"?

Sorry, it's written correctly.

k. orr

>It's relative and shaped by our
>world view. 2 +
>2 = 4, yeah if
>you go by a decimal
>system.

see the example above about the rain. if i put my uncover hand into something liquid it's gonna get wet? how exactly is that relative to my worldview (beyond the language issue)?

>I put my faith in me,
>and that's it. Everything
>else can't be depended on.
> Hell, I ain't all
>that reliable, but at least
>I know what I will
>do.

so then roll like that. but again, for you (not nec. you meaning you) to say that someone ELSE is foolish for not believeing you or for making their own decision seems perilously faulty (remember the issue of the thread)

>What truth are you talking about.
> It doesn't exist.

okay then. when is this false: you = you?

> It's a gang of
>rules and regulations with some
>carrot at the end.
>But on an individual and
>an aggregate level, no one
>seems to be winning despite
>what they profess.

first of all, you looking at the wrong examples, because frankly my testimony is that i'm doing far beeter now than i ever was before, and i attribute this 100% to my faith. that said, by your own commentary "the carrot is at the end", if we haven't reached the end yet, you're assuming the result before the final bell has sounded. nadditionally, you've also made an assumption when you said the only reason to live a certain way is to recieve a particular benefit. SOME actually follow their faith to show thanks for what they've ALREADY recieved. but you don't hear me though because you've apparently already decided in your mind. as is your perogative. :)

>Sorry, it's written correctly.

so then explain where i missed it. cause i sho nuff did.

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"What are we as African Americans? Let's really examine how we are contributing to the projection of our own images of ourselves. What are we really willing to give up? Our integrity? The honor of our community, just for some money? "-Jada

Okay boodaah seems you got all the answers, when's your book comin out ?????

peace

>Okay boodaah seems you got all
>the answers, when's your book
>comin out ?????

i wouldn't even read a book i wrote.

i have WAY more questions than answers.

i just seek, and discuss.....

Peace!!!!!!

BurbKnight- Software Developer (Gyrodata Inc.- Houston)

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too many religions offer a way out. Meaning if you commit a sin , you can be absolved from it . If you know your slate can be erase , why would you behave (or live correctly)?

do you think that we only look for the Good out of fear of reprisal? Do you think that people are inherently "bad"? Or do you think that the rules that we want people to follow are contrary to their nature? If yes, which ones?

Also, would it work to have a religion that teaches forgiveness but was itself unforgiving?

Peace.

There's no sense in being precise when you don't even know what you're talking about.
-- John von Neumann

"It hard being a spiritual being when shit is shaking what you believe in".(c) Talib Kweli

Peace.....

i seek righteousness. it's a mission, which, if done correctly is NEVER completely attained but always sought, like learning. my faith lies in being a good person, but not a perfectionist. i live my life according to how i feel, and respect the law of cause and effect, and others way of learning and understanding. we're all the same but we just don't see it.

>i live my life according to how
>i feel,

i kow you "repsect the law of cause and effect", but still isn't this a bit dangerous?

what if someone "feels", fr example, like killing themselves or someone else (or is the answer simply "deal witht he consequences"?)

who am i to say if they kill themselves they're wrong? that's their own stupidity. i refuse to be accountable for someone else's actions because they share the same beliefs. if they're like me, they won't even entertain the thought of suicide, and if they believe/respect the laws of cause and effect they'll think about what's to become of them in the afterlife. i don't advocate stupid actions, but everybody does stupid shit sometimes...

bring it on man!

But theres only so long that you can walk around blindfolded without bumping into that wall that will bring you to your senses...im feeling good now that ive been building with this God named Justice. he's teaching me what he knows and im doing the same thing knaamean? Ive found that with ish he says im less likely to argue cuz sayings he's told me pop into my brain, im trying to eat better, curse less etc...im not trying to impose my beliefs on people who've known no other way of life...i just want to build with the ones who know righteouness, instead of prefering that blind fold. Im 17 and thats my age of Knowledge God...its not knowledge others. i need to know myself and other Earths and Gods before i go flouncing and 'preaching'...cuz thats not wise knaamean?





****http://members.blackplanet.com/mika_mik/****
my page is always being built...

'it is never wrong to ask a question, it is always wrong to be ignorant'

'i dont think im down for that...'

keep searching player :)

I think that belief is based upon Perception.


Action is based upon intention.



If there were no falsohood then we would not know Truth.


Is a chair NOT proof of a carpenter?



If there is a correct method of carrying out simple actions (
to build a building, counting money, cooking a meal,etc.)then how could there NOT be a correct method of carrying out ones life? Just a question.


Man was put on earth to worship. Wether they worship thier creator or not, they worship SOMETHING. Many worship money, others worship sex, others worship attention, others worship themselves, still others worship other men/women, some worship all of the above, some worship none of the above,etc. But man DOES worship, he does put his time and energy into Some THING or Some ONE constantly.



One last thing, is the "Straight way" limited to those who have been to college and speak about concepts in a way that the common man, blue collar worker, oppressed and uneducated person(many earthlings) can NOT understand? If your belief system only reaches "the highschool grad" or "the college grad",those with money, those who are literate, or those of a specific race, then it can't be THE way. Many "primitive" people are more advanced than the "civilized" ones, Many poor people know the meaning of giving better than the rich, etc.


Is anybody getting me?

> I think that
>belief is based upon Perception.

disagree. wait a minute. do you mean direct ot indirect perception?

> Action is based
>upon intention.

like cause leads to effect?

in other words are you saying: intention leads to action? if so, you can have my job as moderator, because that DEFINITELY isn't the case.

> If there were
>no falsohood then we would
>not know Truth.

elaborate

> Is a chair
>NOT proof of a carpenter?

idunno. you tell me why it is.

> If there is
>a correct method of carrying
>out simple actions (
>to build a building, counting money,
>cooking a meal,etc.)then
>how could there NOT be
>a correct method of carrying
>out ones life? Just a
>question.

i miss the correlation. because carrying out one's life (beyond the biological of it) isn't that simple of a task. that's why this discussion exists.

> Man was put
>on earth to worship.

worship or serve? or is service worship (i'll give you that one)

>One last thing, is the "Straight way" limited
>to those who have been
>to college and speak about
>concepts in a way
>that the common man, blue
>collar worker, oppressed and uneducated
>person(many earthlings) can NOT understand?

of course not. which is why all that "physics" business above gives me pause. upon first reading it really sounded like gibberish (sorry, not disrespect intended). upon further reading it began to make sense in a very broad way, but it doesn't (at least the part addressed) get at how one is to maintain on a daily.

theory is good, but without practicality the question is how good?

>Is anybody getting me?

trying to.

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"What are we as African Americans? Let's really examine how we are contributing to the projection of our own images of ourselves. What are we really willing to give up? Our integrity? The honor of our community, just for some money? "-Jada

> I think that
>belief is based upon Perception.
>
I agree. However, we know, belief is very limiting.

> Action is based
>upon intention.
>

What is intention based on?

> If there were
>no falsohood then we would
>not know Truth.
>
Agreed.
>
> Is a chair
>NOT proof of a carpenter?
>
NO.
>
>
>
> If there is
>a correct method of carrying
>out simple actions (
>to build a building, counting money,
>cooking a meal,etc.)then
>how could there NOT be
>a correct method of carrying
>out ones life? Just a
>question.
>

No, there is not A correct method of carrying out simple actions. There are MANY. Some of them known, others unknown. Hence, your question should be "If there are correcto methods of carrying out simple actions then how could there not be correct methods of carrying out one's life?"

>
> Man was put
>on earth to worship. Wether
>they worship thier creator or
>not, they worship SOMETHING. Many
>worship money, others worship sex,
>others worship attention, others worship
>themselves, still others worship other
>men/women, some worship all of
>the above, some worship none
>of the above,etc. But man
>DOES worship, he does put
>his time and energy into
>Some THING or Some ONE
>constantly.
>
The first statement is a belief. Hence, your sequential logic is also a belief.
>
>
> One last thing,
>is the "Straight way" limited
>to those who have been
>to college and speak about
>concepts in a way
>that the common man, blue
>collar worker, oppressed and uneducated
>person(many earthlings) can NOT understand?
>If your belief system only
>reaches "the highschool grad" or
>"the college grad",those with money,
>those who are literate, or
>those of a specific race,
>then it can't be THE
>way. Many "primitive" people are
>more advanced than the "civilized"
>ones, Many poor people know
>the meaning of giving better
>than the rich, etc.
>
I don't think you're referring to a belief system here. I think you were referring to a system of knowledge. The difference between facts and beliefs have been explained many a time on this board, so I shan't repeat. Many (even quantum physicists) decide to base their lives on belief because they lack the facts. I think what's important is the PURSUIT of correctitude (or righteousness or factology or knowledge, wisdom, understanding or Al Din etc...). I think it's important to realize that there is always something more you can know and some other way to improve your self. So in essence, the straight way is to remain on the straight way (see brother Solarus about the ALL in ALL).

>
>Is anybody getting me?
You gettin' me?

Salaam,

eyezed

From my experience, a relationship with God is driven more by knowledge, wisdom, and understanding rather than just simply faith. Just tossing my hat into the ring.

ma
meudontno@hotmail.com

>From my experience, a relationship with
>God is driven more by
>knowledge, wisdom, and understanding rather
>than just simply faith.
>Just tossing my hat into
>the ring.

is not the knowledge wisdom and understanding the basis for belief which manifest itself through faith?

rocket scientist! and so is eyezed! now can yall put all that scientific mumbo jumbo together, and make somethin fo us "black folks" (tavis style) to take over the u.s. wit. lolol......seriously though......

bismillah

you are absolutely correct in what you are saying.
if one was to walk around with their draws showing, but preached "pride in self", no one would ever take them seriously, and they would prob. label them a hypocrite.

i have seen too many people on okayplayer.com make statements of righteousness and virtue, and then turn around and be in okaygeneraladiscussion talking about everything under the sun! and i mean the perverted things that a decent, self-respecting person wouldnt touch with a 1in. pole let alone a 10 ft. one.

not sayin that im perfect, or people dont make mistakes, but the question is "How hard do we try?"

not braggin, but i myself try very hard to talk the talk and walk the walk. i keep myself out of places and from around people that could: ruin my marriage, get me killed, persuade me to do something that is forbidden for me to do, etc....
of course, all that im trying to avoid could still happen (and there is no COULD about the death part, it will!), but at least i know im tryng my best to avoid it, and that is what matters with Allah (God).

he knows our intentions and our hearts.

i hope you all are trying too.
cause the devil is real, and he doesnt play around

Before I share this I wanted ya'll to know that this story is no big deal to me. I tell it all the time to the youth I work with and whenever someone asks me about my religion/faith:

When I was a pre-teen I was lost or I felt lost and I was ready to give up on life. I was a regular church goer, I was in the youth choir, attended Sunday school, etc. But church did not seem to help me get connected spiritually. Clinically, I was severly depressed and I sought help from psychiatry. One day I had enough. Alone, in my mother's kitchen, I gathered all the prescription medicine in the house and got on my knees. I pleaded with God to show me how to find my path and when I stood up the phone rang...on the other end was my answer.

The rest is history. I feel quite certain that I was connected to God, on my Divine path and it happened in one inspiring moment. I was in therapy until I was 17 and I emerged grounded, driven, confident, focused and determined.

Because I took one leap of faith when I was 12 I was able to see how I never had to worry about falling again. Faith is hard to explain but when you have it it does not matter what religion you worship or what church you go to. It is the shelter in the storm. The refuge in all the chaos and confusion that is the world we all live in.

"Know thyself"

"Let your conduct be without covetousness; be content with such things as you have. For He Himself has said, "I will never leave you or forsake you". So we may boldly say, "The Lord is my helper, I will not fear. What can man do to me?"
-- Hebrews 13:5,6

"There is a difference between knowing the path and walking the path"
--Morpheus in "The Matrix"

"It's our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities"- Dumbledore to Harry Potter "Chamber of Secrets"

...it's hard for me to tolerate organized religion because I know where to go (within myself) to tap the spiritual reserve that keeps me going. I learned that when I was alone and on my knees. When this doesn't work I keep digging and searching, looking for inspiration. Usually I find my way back to my path and inspiration when I need it.

Personal freedom and perfection is about staying true to one's agreements. I try to be impeccable with my word, never take anything personally, never assume, and always do my best. Some days are better than others but I always wake up intending to stay righteous.


"Know thyself"

"Let your conduct be without covetousness; be content with such things as you have. For He Himself has said, "I will never leave you or forsake you". So we may boldly say, "The Lord is my helper, I will not fear. What can man do to me?"
-- Hebrews 13:5,6

"There is a difference between knowing the path and walking the path"
--Morpheus in "The Matrix"

"It's our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities"- Dumbledore to Harry Potter "Chamber of Secrets"

straight raw uncut testimony....

thanks sis