This has been argued by 5 percenters and the nation, but how natural or native is Islam to Afrikans? Did Arabs not conquer northern africa and its people and force them to pratice Islam in the same way that Christians came with rifles and bibles? I need clarity as to why Muslims are any better, when fundamentally they did the same thing as Christians? Are people who stand behind the argument that Islam is the natural relegion of blacks brainwashed in that sense that they cannot see that not only have blacks been bamboozled by white christians, but also arab muslims?
~~~~~~~~
AIM: Mello01
Homepage: http://members.blackplanet.com/2bYGB/
E-mail: melvin@poetic.com

********
If knowledge was your wealth, then it would be well-earned. -Silly E. Badu

Gary, Indiana, the city of the new century. -Mello

Did you hear about the rose that grew from the concrete? -Pac

Give a dayum if any fam recall my legacy, I'm tryna live life in tha sight of God's memory... -Mos Def

Its time to get some Ghetto Heaven
-Rasheed & D'

The people, united, will never be defeated. - Talib

Good ?uestion...Wish I had an answer. All my life, I kinda wonderd the same. I guess u can just say that as Africans we were just totally raped of everything.

(sigh)

bismillah

"This has been argued by 5 percenters and the nation, but how natural or native is Islam to Afrikans?"

islam as brought by muhammad in the 6th century, is not native to africa. but a question to ask is what religion IS native to africans or anybody for that matter?
the answer is islam. islam means "submission", therefore submission to God has always existed since Adam and Eve. but, we all know how they were "unsubmissive" and basically got the boot from paradise. and after that, they were remorseful, asked for forgiveness, and became "submissive" again. nobody ever used to worship statues, "gods", stars, or anything except God. think about it. how can someone worship something that didnt exist, or that they didnt know anything about. and this was the case with adam and eve. but, as more people started to exist, diff. ideas started to exist too. there used to be only one way of life (religion), now there are a million and one ways of life (religion). just like there used to be only one person, and now there are a billion people.
so, islam (submission) is a natural way of life or religion, b/c it has always existed in human's nature, whereas everything else came after the nature of human had already been established to "submit" to God, rather than to oppose Him.


"Did Arabs not conquer northern africa and its people and force them to pratice Islam in the same way that Christians came with rifles and bibles?"

my man mello, i have to say in defense of "muslims" and islam that "arabs" have done a lot of things, but does not necessarily
reflect "the muslims" or Islam.
if "arabs" did force someone to practice islam anywhere, then they were incorrect.
Allah says in his Quran 2:256- laa ikraaha fi ad din- there is no compulsion in religion (way of life).
so no one can be forced to accept islam, it has to be of free will.


"I need clarity as to why Muslims are any better, when fundamentally they did the same thing as Christians? Are people who stand behind the argument that Islam is the natural relegion of blacks brainwashed in that sense that they cannot see that not only have blacks been bamboozled by white christians, but also arab muslims?"

ill get back to ya on this one, time to go to the mosque!

out

Hotep

>the answer is islam. islam means
>"submission", therefore submission to God
>has always existed since Adam
>and Eve.

Did a concept of "Adam and Eve" exist before the Old Testament and subsequently the New Testament and the Quran? No, moving on...


but, we all
>know how they were "unsubmissive"
>and basically got the boot
>from paradise. and after that,
>they were remorseful, asked for
>forgiveness, and became "submissive" again.
>nobody ever used to worship
>statues, "gods", stars, or anything
>except God. think about it.
>how can someone worship something
>that didnt exist, or that
>they didnt know anything about.
>and this was the case
>with adam and eve.

what do you mean "stars" didn't exist? According to Bible (I do not know about the Quran), the STARS were created BEFORE MAN.

but,
>as more people started to
>exist, diff. ideas started to
>exist too. there used to
>be only one way of
>life (religion), now there are
>a million and one ways
>of life (religion). just like
>there used to be only
>one person, and now there
>are a billion people.


What way of life is this? The problem is that you use "submission to God" and "islam" interchangeably. Though conceptually this IS the meaning of Islam, the manner in which it is practice varies from person to person. Although Christianity has been spread or introduced to peoples throughout the world, Islam (as determined by the Quran) HASN'T. The fact that is has to be SPREAD (Christianity included) show that it is NOT in fact INHERENT to all peoples.

>
>"Did Arabs not conquer northern africa
>and its people and force
>them to pratice Islam in
>the same way that Christians
>came with rifles and bibles?"
>

This is not totally true. Although in some cases it was spread by force, it also became a "religion of convenience." In many cases the religion was spread through usage of the oral and written Arabic language which was the favored mode of communication during the Tran-saharan Trade. Also in cases where Islam represented the religion of the ruling body, conversion to Islam represented many societal benefits. In many cases (particularly in Egypt), Christians (contrary to popular belief) were not persecuted but Muslim were given special privileges that increased greater social stratification and wealth. However indigenous belief systems were often shunned and its adherents persecuted because of unlike Christianity or Judaism, they were not "People of the Book" meaning that they were purely "pagans" and "heathens.

PEAce
Solarus

"Activism is the practice of using an internal, self-determining source of power to live one's life and/or enact some sort of change. Power is the ability to define reality, while self-determination is to decide or define one's self. Therefore activism, is not simply something done to right some wrong or to fight some cause but rather it is a way of life. Activism is the way of life where one can define self and change anything that may impede or control the reality that one chooses to live."-Solarus

bismillah

>Did a concept of "Adam and
>Eve" exist before the Old
>Testament and subsequently the New
>Testament and the Quran? No,
>moving on...

what concept? explain.


>what do you mean "stars" didn't
>exist? According to Bible
>(I do not know about
>the Quran), the STARS were
>created BEFORE MAN.

recall that i said "didnt exist" OR "didnt know anything about it". i didnt state which category that stars fell under.


>What way of life is this?
> The problem is that
>you use "submission to God"
>and "islam" interchangeably. Though
>conceptually this IS the meaning
>of Islam, the manner in
>which it is practice varies
>from person to person. Although
>Christianity has been spread or
>introduced to peoples throughout the
>world, Islam (as determined by
>the Quran) HASN'T. The
>fact that is has to
>be SPREAD (Christianity included) show
>that it is NOT in
>fact INHERENT to all peoples.


Allah says in the qur'an:
"do they not look at Allah's creation. Among things,-How their shadows turn round, from the right and the left, prostrating themselves to Allah, and that in the humblest manner? And to Allah does prostrate all that is in the heavens and on earth, whether moving creatures or the angels: for none are arrogant (before their Lord)."-16:49,50.

look at your shadow the next time you are outside. its only "natural" that your shadow does what it does. and if it did anything contrary to what we normally know a shadow to do, then that would be "unnatural"!

everything submits to Allah. some are perfect in their submission, and some are not. if the sun ever went of its "natural" course, then we would be dead! thus the sun submits to the commands of Allah, never slacking a bit, always obedient!

>>"Did Arabs not conquer northern africa
>>and its people and force
>>them to pratice Islam in
>>the same way that Christians
>>came with rifles and bibles?"
>>
>
>This is not totally true.
>Although in some cases it
>was spread by force, it
>also became a "religion of
>convenience." In many cases the
>religion was spread through usage
>of the oral and written
>Arabic language which was the
>favored mode of communication during
>the Tran-saharan Trade. Also
>in cases where Islam represented
>the religion of the ruling
>body, conversion to Islam represented
>many societal benefits. In
>many cases (particularly in Egypt),
>Christians (contrary to popular
>belief) were not persecuted but
>Muslim were given special privileges
>that increased greater social stratification
>and wealth. However indigenous
>belief systems were often shunned
>and its adherents persecuted because
>of unlike Christianity or Judaism,
>they were not "People of
>the Book" meaning that they
>were purely "pagans" and "heathens.

where did you get your info from? i really would like to read what you read. seriously! everybody in the world has a motive for doing something and id like to see where the author's motives are going.

out.

subhankallahumma wabihamdihi ashhadu anla ilaha illa ant astagfiruka waatuubu ilaika

I suppose if you define Islam by the literal translation, "submission to God" then the argument could be made that Islam is natural. However if you're being at all pragmatic your definition of Islam would have to include the accompanying texts, practices, and dogma associated with Islam. After all, I consider myself in submission to Allah by the sheer fact that as an omnipotent and omniscient being and the creator of the world, Allah exerts significant control over my existence. But no one would consider me a Muslim just by virtue of this "submission". By a more reasonable definition, Islam (and all other religions) cannot be considered "natural". As human beings we are not born with any specific religious practices. We are instead socialized to conform to a certain religion, and anything we do that is considered religious is a learned behavior. This doesn't make religion less powerful, or imply that you can't differentiate between the relative "rightness" of different religions, but it does mean that non of them are natural.
As for the spread of Islam by force. Islam was spread by force in some instances (Moors in Spain), by persuasion from societal benefits in others (Ottoman Empire), and by voluntary conversion in other instances. Contrary to popular belief Islam did not originate as a "Black Man's religion". Even today South Sudanese African are being slaughtered and enslaved by North Sudanese Muslims (Arabs).
Peace


"We live now for the promise of the infinite" Mos Def

bismillah

>I suppose if you define Islam
>by the literal translation, "submission
>to God" then the argument
>could be made that Islam
>is natural. However if you're
>being at all pragmatic your
>definition of Islam would have
>to include the accompanying texts,
>practices, and dogma associated with
>Islam. After all, I consider
>myself in submission to Allah
>by the sheer fact that
>as an omnipotent and omniscient
>being and the creator of
>the world, Allah exerts significant
>control over my existence.

and you are, but your innerself isnt. your heart beats according to the design of Allah, your fingerprints are unique by the design of Allah, your brain serves as the center of your nervous system by the design of Allah.....and none of these things will ever differ without the will of Allah, b/c they dont have the option to do so. but your innerself does, and that how Allah created it. to choose between right and wrong, left and right, up and down, submission and non-submission.


>But no one would consider me
>a Muslim just by virtue
>of this "submission".

of course they wouldnt. the only thing that is arrogant enough not to be "submissive", is man. and only by free choice of "submission" would you be considered a muslim.


>By a more reasonable definition, Islam (and >all other religions) cannot be
>considered "natural". As human beings
>we are not born with
>any specific religious practices. We
>are instead socialized to conform
>to a certain religion, and
>anything we do that is
>considered religious is a learned
>behavior. This doesn't make religion
>less powerful, or imply that
>you can't differentiate between the
>relative "rightness" of different religions,
>but it does mean that
>non of them are natural.

contrair monfrair!
Allah says in the qur'an:
When thy Lord drew forth from the children of Adam-from their loins-their descendants, and made them testify concerning themselves, (saying): "Am I not your Lord (who cherishes and sustains you)?" They said: "Yea! We do testify!" (This), lest you should say on the day of judgement: "Of this we were never mindful": Or lest you should say: "Our fathers before us took false gods, but we are (their) descendants after them: will thou then destroy us because of the deeds of men who followed falsehood."

this statement alone is the proof that everyone that ever existed, exists, or will exist knows that their Lord is One. and this is the "natural way" that exists inside man. but he is forever denying it. thinking that a creation, instead of The Creator, can benefit him or harm him. thinking that a black cat can give him bad luck, but that The Creator of the cat is powerless! or that if a he breaks a mirror, he'll get bad luck for seven years! but where are the mirrors when somebody got a gun to your head. or a statue that was made by human hands, but as soon as you drop it, it cant even save itself from being broke! or the stars that shine at night, but where are they in the daytime! no light to show!


out

subhanakallahumma wabihamdihi ashhadu anlaa ilaha illa ant astaghfiruka waattuubu ilaika

I'm contending that all of religion, even religious texts, are products of society. How can you respond by quoting the Quran? The fact that a passage in the Quran (or the Bible or whatever) gives evidence that Islam is natural is irrelevant. Can you give some other argument?

bismillah

>I'm contending that all of religion,
>even religious texts, are products
>of society.

by this, do you mean a product of man's hands?


>How can you
>respond by quoting the Quran?
>The fact that a passage
>in the Quran (or the
>Bible or whatever) gives evidence
>that Islam is natural is
>irrelevant. Can you give some
>other argument?

i could if i knew exactly what you mean by natural?
b/c is it natural for someone to be a murder?
or a rapist?
no.
but what is natural, is that man knows that these things are wrong and that they corrupt and ruin society?

is it natural for a man to worship a rock or tree?
no.
but what is natural, is that man knows that these things can do nothing positive or negative for him, without his energy to compel these things to do so.

is it natural for a man to sleep with a man?
no.
but what is natural, is that man knows that this is an abomination, and that the purpose of his sexual organs is to procreate.

murder, rape, false worship, and homosexuality are "products" of society, and are not natural.
but the opposite of these are natural, and why? b/c they existed when "society" didnt.
and the "true nature" of man is the basis for "submission" or Islam, b/c the "unnature" of man is the basis for "not submitting" to the "true nature" of man. hence you have "submission" and "unsubmission" and these terms are synonomous with "islam" and "not islam".
and these have been around since the beginning of man, are around now, and will be around when man (in human form) isnt.


you said in an earlier post:
>After all, I consider myself in submission to Allah by the >sheer fact that as an omnipotent and omniscient being and the >creator of the world, Allah exerts significant control over my >existence. But no one would consider me a Muslim just by virtue >of this "submission".

the fact that you yourself acknowledged that "Allah exerts significant control over my existence", is the basis for the belief that proceeds the "religious practices" that come with religion.(this is the case, unless you dont really believe that)
the statement is a product of "nature", b/c if you said that "solarus exerts significant control over my existence", this is not only "natural", it is a fabrication. even if he was where you are and face to face. he cannot control your heartbeat, your nervous system, your energy, nothing, exept what you allow him to control. you cant even control the mentioned items, b/c you have no ability to do so. they function without your help. and this is "natural"="submission"="islam".
only when your "belief" is in accords with your "nature" and they are in accords with your "actions" then would you be considered a muslim in the "religious" sense of the word.

can anyone persuade a hindu in america to go to hajj in mecca at a cost of about $2,000-$3,000 if he didnt believe that Allah was the entity that was commanding him to go to the hajj in the first place? no! he would stay right here and wouldnt even waste his time or money.


>As human beings we are not born with any specific religious >practices. We are instead socialized to conform to a certain >religion, and anything we do that is considered religious is a >learned behavior.

so as human beings, what is your take on exactly what we are born with, if you are still not in cohesion with what i said already?

From what I understand Allah means the most high, and he says the same things the rest of them do. Basically, religions confuse me. I would like to get right but I don't know which one is. Also, where does Jehovah come in at and where does this religion fit in when it comes to black folks? Holla back.
That Thang.

what else do you know about Allah or islam?

I know that they all say the same thing. Same message with different wording.

that being said why dont you become muslim? an join the fastest growing way of life in america as reported by abc news. the fastest without commercials, radio spots, television programs, nothing! why? b/c islam is not only a "religion" but a "way of life". so why not become muslim? what are you confused about in islam?

Well Ifa for one...its still practiced by many today both on the Continent & here.

Voodun and its byproduct - Santeria.


Kulunga

And many more traditional indigenous religions practiced throughout the continent.

Don't talk about that "pagan" stuff around here. Those African heathens need to find God.

Don't talk about what those Yoruba folk do and for that matter Akan, Dogon, Kikyku, Luo, Zulu, Shona, Kikongo, etc.

Africans need to find the light from their most experienced and enlightened brothers from outside of the "DARK" continent to find God.

PEace
Solarus

"Activism is the practice of using an internal, self-determining source of power to live one's life and/or enact some sort of change. Power is the ability to define reality, while self-determination is to decide or define one's self. Therefore activism, is not simply something done to right some wrong or to fight some cause but rather it is a way of life. Activism is the way of life where one can define self and change anything that may impede or control the reality that one chooses to live."-Solarus

before we found Allah or Christ.

islam is "natural"(i don't really agree with the term) to africa, but so is christianity and judaism...just not european christianity...remember jesus was black...so was damn near every biblical prophet...romans destroyed many of the churches in africa...it's astonishing...i visited some of the ruins...i think the question of how indigenous a form of spirituality or a belief system is to a region can only be answered by that regions involvement in the advent of said beliefs....it could be argued that africa was the first place that islam was practiced freely...after the death of muhammad his successors travelled to "spread the word" but were shocked to find mosques already established....

The Coptic church, one of the earliest Christain establishments apparently, can be found in Ethiopia to this day, within its magnificant structure, and churches dating back to the begginning of Christainity.

...that islam was spread by the sword is one of the greatest myths...i've had the pleasure of shooting it down in class...
first, the idea of god in most christian circles is foreign to africa....that god is in a certain place, that worship of god is a seperate practice from what we do everyday...

white christianity spread through heinous ways...african christianity is still practiced as it was among egyptian coptic and ethiopian orthodox churches

..islam spread through trade,intermarriage and conversion...arabs were only catalysts on the fringes of the continent...africans did it from there..

damn i lost my train of thought...i'll get back...

I've just been reading about this so here's my 2¢ on the topic.

Islam was spread during the reign of the Ottoman Empire that flourished from around the Middle Ages to about 1956. It was not forced on the African people - they practiced their own religions. As a matter of fact, due to the conglomeration of people living under Ottoman rule, the Ottomans allowed for the different peoples to practice their own religions and even follow their own laws while still under the Sha‘aria- Islamic Law. They allowed this because Christians ahd Jews were considered people of the book.

This is why they were able to govern such a vast empire for as long as they did. Islam was still, however the dominant religion and people of other religions did face persecution and prejudice - one was first a jew, a muslim, a christian, before they were an arab or an ottoman or an armenian.

They considered Islam the complete truth, that which was revealed in whole to Prophet Muhammed (pbuh). Everybody else, especially the Christians, knew only half the truth and were in effect "half intelligent" or half conscious of the truth. i.o.w they were stubborn halfwits for not accepting Islam as the one true religion, which justified their being unable to secure or rise to high positions outside of their millets or religious communities.








"You know what he's saying? 'Black man can't throw me out.' You know where he's saying it? In the parking lot." -Morgan Freeman, Lean On Me

"The Pentagon announced yesterday that US and British planes had struck Iraqi air defense sites south of
Baghdad. Defense officials say the President wants to send a clear message to the Iraqi government that he knows exactly where Iraq is." -- Tina Fey, Weekend Update

"Sesame Street Workshop announced this week that they are laying off 60 workers. At a brief press conference a spokesman for the company said "60! Sixty fired workers! A-ha ha ha ha!" News of the firings was brought to the
employees by the letters 'F' and 'U' . " -- Jimmy Fallon, Weekend Update

"God is sufficient and disposer of affairs - Mos Def

"African." Though the early church was lead by African theologians, the "Coptic" church was created through the direction of Constantine and the Byzantine empire. The Churches found today in Egypt and Ethiopia represent the initial churches of the Byzantine empire which focused on creating a religion that would greater benefit its expansionist purposes. The official break with the Coptic Church and "birth" of the Roman Catholic church, occurred in 451 CE when the monophysitic doctrine of the Coptic and Ethiopian churches was considered heresy.

To find REAL "African Christianity" one would have to look at those considered "heretics" in during the formal establishment of the church: the Gnostics.

See "OkayBlackourstorymonth" for more details on the Gnostics.

PEace
Solarus

"Activism is the practice of using an internal, self-determining source of power to live one's life and/or enact some sort of change. Power is the ability to define reality, while self-determination is to decide or define one's self. Therefore activism, is not simply something done to right some wrong or to fight some cause but rather it is a way of life. Activism is the way of life where one can define self and change anything that may impede or control the reality that one chooses to live."-Solarus

Just passing through and reading the comments that have been posted here, I began to wonder.. One of the first questions that was aked was" didnt the(Arabs) Muslims do the same thing to Our people as did the Christians". You know tis is true,but there is one difference in what the Muslims did than that of the Christians. Although givin that Kings and princes embraced Islam, and cooperated with the Arabians in the exportation of human cargo. Long before the extensive development of the slave trade by Europeans, many of the basic practices of the international slave trade had already been established. It is to be noted, however, that slavery among Muslims was not an institution utilized primarily for the production of goods from which wealth could be derived. There were no extensive cotton,tobacco, and sugarcane firelds in Arabia, Persia, and Egypt. Slaves in these lands were pretty much servents, and the extent of the demand for them depended in a large measure on wealth of the potential masters. So slavery therfore was a manifestation of wealth and the institution showed little of the harshness and severity that it possessed in areas where it was itself the foundation on which wealth was built. Although becoming Muslim did not release slaves from their duties, it did have the effect of elevating their standing and enhancing their dignity among others. Just a thought you know this way of life was much different than the way our people was treated by the christians.

see "OkayBlackOurstoryMonth" then look at "Zanj Rebellion"

PEace
Solarus



"Activism is the practice of using an internal, self-determining source of power to live one's life and/or enact some sort of change. Power is the ability to define reality, while self-determination is to decide or define one's self. Therefore activism, is not simply something done to right some wrong or to fight some cause but rather it is a way of life. Activism is the way of life where one can define self and change anything that may impede or control the reality that one chooses to live."-Solarus

bismillah

once again in the face of ignorance, The Truth is about to be known, and totally wipe out falsehood!

i have reitterated numerous times that the term "arab" is not synonomous or interchangeble with "muslim".

that being said,......
this is a link to a chapter in Sahih Al Bukhari- acollection of AUTHENTIC SAYINGS (NOT FORGERIES) of the prophet muhammad (saws),
and the chapter is entirely about the manumission of slaves.

i hope this will dispell any thoughts about the situation of Islam, Muslims, and Slaves.

http://islam.org/mosque/sunnah/bukhari/046.sbt.html#003.046.702

if you are looking for the Truth, you will find that whatever the "arabs" and even the "muslims" did to the zanj or any other peoples on the face of the earth (even right now), was done out of ignorance (the absence of knowledge) or just plain arrogance (ignorance w/ knowledge), it can not be attributed to Islam.

judge muslims by islam, not islam by the muslims.

if you read or see any photo's of direct descendants of Muhhamed(pbuh) you'll see that his fam is very very dark, some arabs are black some are white...most are inbetween....also i read part of a book(which i'll name tomorrow) which talks about the Muhhamed(pbuh) father Abdullah and his Father etc etc...and describes them as being black..anyhoo..ISLAM isnt about race...its about discipline.

A few points:

1) 5 percenters and the Nation do not represent the same Islam that was brought by Muhammad to Arabia.

2) One of the first Muslim converts was a black slave name Bilal, who was tortured brutally for his conversion, and became one of the closest people to Muhammad.

3) Islam came to Africa within the first decade of its existence. Oppressed in Mecca, a group of Muslims migrated to Abyssinia (Ethiopia) which was at that time ruled by a Christian king and took refuge there. The King later became Muslim and the King's daughter married Muhammad (ie Muhammad had a black wife).

4) Some Arabs and Africans were undoubtedly in concert with Europeans to bring Africans to America to become slaves. But you can't judge a religion by a small group of people: say I try to judge Catholics by looking at Nazis or Jews by looking at hardcore Zionists.

5) I don't have a 5th point.

cantlie

Hmmm....Christians, Jews, Muslims....all the same...ya know why because we spend so much time being holy looking down on others we cannot see the truth...any organized religion cannot be natural...why because the thought and or belief that a God exists is an intellectual step...as a prehistoric man woman whatever you have no time to worry about the after life...you worry about food family children and health...it isn't until communities, towns, cutural identies are formed between people that any kind of organized religion takes place...It is more earthly/natural to worship this spinning orb( the place we dwell),or the sun (the light giver), or the harvest (food), or the animals that you kill or kill you. That is natural the belief that a man avoided capture by hiding behind a spiders web, or God reincarnated walks as a man those are ideals that take food surplus and dedicated thought to achieve.