I read the quote attributed to Jill Scott regarding "if you are dating someone who doesn't look like your Mama you are doing something wrong." on the boards this morning. Now being an official cardholding member of the "you gotta get her album," club of Jill Scott's it disapointed me a bit, but her personal views are just that, personal.
Now if her views on race are reflected in her music, I suppose I would have to stop and think. I always thought race-mixing was a sin, I would have stood, along with my Malcolm X portrait tattooed on my arm, and testified when Jilly from Philly made that comment a year or so ago. To paraphrase Malcolm, "you have a cup of hot black coffee, and it is powerful, but when you add sugar and cream to that black coffee, it weakens and sooner or later, it isn't coffee anymore.
I began dating the sweetest cup of black coffee about 4 months ago, she was a friend for over a year prior to that. I was reluctant to make a move to pursue the relationship. Because when I looked at this girl, I didn't see my Mama.
However, the more I hung around this girl the more I saw my Mama in her. I saw a compassionate woman, who loved me, for who I was, unconditionally. Now we all know regardless of race that is some shit that just doesn't grow on trees. We have had or struggles due to race. Even in the culturally diverse metropolis of New york City. We get the stares, comments and shit that only love can overcome. As my girlfriend says, "We don't match, but we fit."
Now being a journalist myself I know never to believe what I read. I heard Common was a racist before I met him, he was nothing but courteous and offered encouraging words of wisdom when i approached him with a problem we both had shared. I've met Black Thought a few times and he is known to "dis" fans, who proudly detail it on this site. Well I got nothing but love each time. Shit, I even interviewed the recently deseased Khalid Muhammad, now while I can't say he showed the love that the two previously mentioned brothers did, he certainly wasn't the blood-sucking man the media painted him to be.
I seemed to have digressed. All I'm saying is that love is love, regardless of who shares it. My girlfriend looks like my Mama on the inside, and that is what counts to me. Shit, I don't want to kiss a girl with all my Mom's wrinkles anyway. peace

FXS

and she said the same thing. I was at that concert. Her gripe with Black men who date white women was not because they are dating them. Her gripe was that they do not acknowledge their sisters, they forget (i.e do you remember me). Jill said herself that she understands people are gonna love who they love.

I hope this settles your dissapointment.

in solidarity
nice!

"REAL RECOGNIZE REAL, and even more than that, the fake, they REALLY REALLY recognize REAL!" -BlackThought

"STAY BLACK,STAY BLACK,STAY BLACK,STAY BLACK" -Mos Def

>>All I'm saying is that love is love, regardless of who shares it

no it isn't. black men dating white women here in america is just, well, pitiful...

(((((PEACE)))))

Nuwb or "blackness" is supreme balance before the chaos was introduced. It was a state of sound, right reasoning. That darkness was triple darkness, which is what you would call the absence of consciousness, or the state of being awoke. In actuality, the dream state is more real and peaceful than the chaos you meet once you are awake. A form of spiritual darkness responsible for the spark that turned on the light that is the life and intellect of all who breathe and think.
When the light is turned on again, the chaos begins. The differentiation begins. The separation begins. The rights and the wrongs, the goodness and the badness; the supreme balance is broken and the ego begins to verse the "I."

________________________________________
-representin the real since tuesday
-illified illustrated

"REAL RECOGNIZE REAL, and even more than that, the fake, they REALLY REALLY recognize REAL!" -BlackThought

"STAY BLACK,STAY BLACK,STAY BLACK,STAY BLACK" -Mos Def

don't talk...ever

(((((PEACE)))))

Nuwb or "blackness" is supreme balance before the chaos was introduced. It was a state of sound, right reasoning. That darkness was triple darkness, which is what you would call the absence of consciousness, or the state of being awoke. In actuality, the dream state is more real and peaceful than the chaos you meet once you are awake. A form of spiritual darkness responsible for the spark that turned on the light that is the life and intellect of all who breathe and think.
When the light is turned on again, the chaos begins. The differentiation begins. The separation begins. The rights and the wrongs, the goodness and the badness; the supreme balance is broken and the ego begins to verse the "I."

and don't sleep on our beautiful octaroon and quadroon sistas..
________________________________________
-representin the real since tuesday
-illified illustrated

"REAL RECOGNIZE REAL, and even more than that, the fake, they REALLY REALLY recognize REAL!" -BlackThought

"STAY BLACK,STAY BLACK,STAY BLACK,STAY BLACK" -Mos Def

hahahahahaha! :)

octaroons...pitiful, just pitiful


Nuwb or "blackness" is supreme balance before the chaos was introduced. It was a state of sound, right reasoning. That darkness was triple darkness, which is what you would call the absence of consciousness, or the state of being awoke. In actuality, the dream state is more real and peaceful than the chaos you meet once you are awake. A form of spiritual darkness responsible for the spark that turned on the light that is the life and intellect of all who breathe and think.
When the light is turned on again, the chaos begins. The differentiation begins. The separation begins. The rights and the wrongs, the goodness and the badness; the supreme balance is broken and the ego begins to verse the "I."

>
>octaroons...pitiful, just pitiful
>

I don't even know wtf to say to you. If it is just to judge a person by what he says, than I can justly say that you are mean, immature and disrespectful. I could call you a racist, but I don't feel like getting into an argument over the definition of that word. I'll just leave it at that.

One more thing: Some folks like their coffee with more cream than others. Some prefer just drink a glass of milk. Others believe that too much saturated fat and caffeine are unhealthy for the body and instead drink guava puree or prune juice... I try to think of it like this: The quality of the ingredients is what matters. Not the proportions or purity. If you wanted pure coffee you wouldn't add any water... Now that wouldn't be very good, would it?

By the way, how old are you?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
KizzMyBlakAzz: you've made yourself a shell
KizzMyBlakAzz: i know you're soft and gooey on the inside
LHoney17: I know I am....never said I wasn't
LHoney17: but that doesn't mean I get stepped on or that I'm not strong
KizzMyBlakAzz: Gooey
LHoney17: lol
KizzMyBlakAzz: Caramel
KizzMyBlakAzz: Center
LHoney17: lol....well that's a nice way to think of it
KizzMyBlakAzz: with like a hard choclate shell
LHoney17: think I'll put that in a personal ad
KizzMyBlakAzz: You're a Rollo
LHoney17: lmao
KizzMyBlakAzz: lmao

When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love has always won. There have been tyrants and murderers
and for a time they seem invincible but in the end, they always fall -- think of it, ALWAYS. ~~Mahatma Gandhi

>
>don't talk...ever
>

There you go with that bullshit again. I was getting to dig a lot of the things you say. I like the vein of afrocentricity you bring to the boards. I am all about the idea that "western" thought is ass-backwards and a mental disease rampant, destroying peoples and cultures everywhere. (I try to see the beneficial aspects and the flaws in all the cultures I learn about.) So naturally, I like the idea of erasing from the planet, the plague of negativity that western culture has wrought everywhere it's been taken...

However, I don't see why this should preclude peoples of different skin color from being friends, lovers, spouses, etc. with one another. Just because one pair of boots don't fit, don't mean you gotta wear sandals all the time.

I'm not saying that you, utamoroho, should date whites... it's obviously outside of your mindset to do so, and it would be bound to end up in disaster... However, you should respect the feelings of others who do so, at least where respect is due. Remember, judge them by the content of their character.

Just out of curiosity, would you get involved with/marry any non-black? Let's say a Filipina? An American Indian? A light-skinned Egyptian? I realize this is hypothetical at best, but when people seem to have such a strict boundary drawn, it just seems to be begging for an explicit definition.

From the little I have seen of your ideas, you are what I would label an "afroeurocentric". All of your ideas, while heavily African, are in direct retaliation to European-ness. Again, this is only from what I have witnessed of your writings, but you focus only on afro vs. euro. There are very many more ways of thought. In fact, African and European are not ways of thought. There are thousands of cultures and religions originating in both of those continents. Of course, those have been and are still being depleted constantly by the predominant expansionist Euro-Christian culture. But while more similar to each other than to those of other parts of the world, African cultures, religions, ways of thought, and concepts of morality are very different from one another, and to use the Kemetics, a culture from only one corner of the continent, to represent all of African thought, is not very accurate. They may be the pinnacle of success in African history and even the world, but they are only one of countless stories from the continent.

I'm definitely feeling the things you said... a lot of us coloured people in an effort to strike back at Western culture end up doing racist things ourselves... it may sound corny but no matter what that IS sinking to their level...
thanks for keeping it real man

'Arigato, to all my people in Japan,
Whetha ya rockin Cardier or Pierre
Cardan,
I'm bargin through like "excuse I beg
ya pardon"
I crush carbon copy emcees with
clone jargon'
Black Thought - Act Fore... (hidden
track)

why?

******************************************************************
"i write to let my soul fly higher, while ya'll defeatin' the purpose like black highlighters"-wonluv

no it isn't. black men dating
>white women here in america
>is just, well, pitiful...

No, You are pitiful for your distorted view of society.

Screw you guys...I'm goin home -Cartman

18 willin rednecks, sendin me death threats, cuz their niece fantasize about wet sex, when I'm in her headsets. -Opio from Souls of Mischief

You live on the edge? I live on the San Andreas. -Evidence

I believe she was refering to black men who date outside their race. She doesn't like that, and neither do I.

The term "dating outside your race" doesn't mean you date everybody. It means you date everyone BUT those of your own race.

I don't really think Jilly has any problem with interracial dating. As long as people don't chase after people of a different race because they're in love with a stereotype. Eg: the sexually superior black male.

Just thought I'd throw that in there . . .

Giving you true calcio since 1986

Marinera . . . It's a damn tasty sauce y'all . . .

AIM: Marinera81
MAIL: jonah_b27@hotmail.com

Check out http://www.greatergood.com Help end world hunger, save the rainforest, help stop AIDS in Africa, help children survive in 3rd world countries, stop breast cancer, and give treatment to landmine victims in less than a minute a day! FOR FREE! NO FORMS TO FILL OUT AND NO STRINGS! REALLY!!!

what you are refering to would be "dating exclusively outside of your race." "dating outside of your race" means just that....dating someone outside of your race.

and as far as your second point...what about the people who date inside their race because they are in love with a stereotype?

word.fresh.

________________________________________
-representin the real since tuesday
-illified illustrated

>what you are refering to would
>be "dating exclusively outside of
>your race." "dating outside
>of your race" means just
>that....dating someone outside of your
>race.

Dating outside your race vs. dating people in general. That's how I see it.

>and as far as your second
>point...what about the people who
>date inside their race because
>they are in love with
>a stereotype?

True, equally as close-minded.

Just thought I'd throw that in there . . .

Giving you true calcio since 1986

Marinera . . . It's a damn tasty sauce y'all . . .

AIM: Marinera81
MAIL: jonah_b27@hotmail.com

Check out http://www.greatergood.com Help end world hunger, save the rainforest, help stop AIDS in Africa, help children survive in 3rd world countries, stop breast cancer, and give treatment to landmine victims in less than a minute a day! FOR FREE! NO FORMS TO FILL OUT AND NO STRINGS! REALLY!!!

you couldn't have started givin true calcio no earlier than 1989.

i hear u on the rest tho...even though u are alone in your word choice.
________________________________________
-representin the real since tuesday
-illified illustrated

>you couldn't have started givin true
>calcio no earlier than 1989.

I started playing soccer in '86, that's what I'm talking about mane.

Just thought I'd throw that in there . . .

Giving you true calcio since 1986

Marinera . . . It's a damn tasty sauce y'all . . .

AIM: Marinera81
MAIL: jonah_b27@hotmail.com

Check out http://www.greatergood.com Help end world hunger, save the rainforest, help stop AIDS in Africa, help children survive in 3rd world countries, stop breast cancer, and give treatment to landmine victims in less than a minute a day! FOR FREE! NO FORMS TO FILL OUT AND NO STRINGS! REALLY!!!

it's all good...

I just have a problem when someone is being used/only doing it to piss off your parents/based on some twisted stereotypical fantasy....well, you get the point.

but you can't help who u fall in love with...

and right now, if I could find true love w/ a purple man, I'd be happy. shit.

L.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
KizzMyBlakAzz: you've made yourself a shell
KizzMyBlakAzz: i know you're soft and gooey on the inside
LHoney17: I know I am....never said I wasn't
LHoney17: but that doesn't mean I get stepped on or that I'm not strong
KizzMyBlakAzz: Gooey
LHoney17: lol
KizzMyBlakAzz: Caramel
KizzMyBlakAzz: Center
LHoney17: lol....well that's a nice way to think of it
KizzMyBlakAzz: with like a hard choclate shell
LHoney17: think I'll put that in a personal ad
KizzMyBlakAzz: You're a Rollo
LHoney17: lmao
KizzMyBlakAzz: lmao

When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love has always won. There have been tyrants and murderers
and for a time they seem invincible but in the end, they always fall -- think of it, ALWAYS. ~~Mahatma Gandhi

Hotep

>but you can't help who u
>fall in love with...
>
>and right now, if I could
>find true love w/ a
>purple man, I'd be happy.
>shit.
>

Why do people say this BS? You can't choose who you love? That is the weakest idea that I hear constantly reiterated. True you can "fall in love" with ANYBODY. BUT YOU CHOOSE WHO THAT "ANYBODY" IS!!!

This type of mentality is why Western divorce rates are so high. Westerners do not have CLUE WHAT "LOVE" IS!!!

PEace
Solarus

"Activism is the practice of using an internal, self-determining source of power to live one's life and/or enact some sort of change. Power is the ability to define reality, while self-determination is to decide or define one's self. Therefore activism, is not simply something done to right some wrong or to fight some cause but rather it is a way of life. Activism is the way of life where one can define self and change anything that may impede or control the reality that one chooses to live."-Solarus

This type of mentality is why Western divorce rates are so high. Westerners do not have CLUE WHAT "LOVE" IS!!!

Could you expand on that?

Shimmy

Hotep

Love is "the merging of self with the other" or "becoming one with the world" which incumbent on a highly spiritual experience. This directly contradicts the European self-image of the "individual," importance of materialism over spiritualism (i.e. separation of SPIRIT from all aspects of life).

This obvious contradiction at such a base level leads Westerners to make statements like "you can't help who you fall in love with." "Love" becomes a highly philosophic and abstract conception that allows the European to "talk" about it but not experience it. And when it is "experienced" it is unfamiliar and disregarded. For instance the "universal love" that a Christian professes is a farce. In the same breath they are called to destroy the "heathens" which has been done through physical death and torture or by conversion, which to the African is one in the same.

Besides the statement "you can't..." contradicts itself. EVERYONE CHOOSES who they want to "love." Noone "falls" in love with someone who they would not want to be involved with. This statement "mystifies" love so the European can "think" they can experience it.

ACTIONS speak louder than words.

PEace
Solarus

"Activism is the practice of using an internal, self-determining source of power to live one's life and/or enact some sort of change. Power is the ability to define reality, while self-determination is to decide or define one's self. Therefore activism, is not simply something done to right some wrong or to fight some cause but rather it is a way of life. Activism is the way of life where one can define self and change anything that may impede or control the reality that one chooses to live."-Solarus

Thanks for explaining.

So in terms of mechanics...for a person to experience love within the framework you describe...how would it come into being?What would it look like?

Shimmy

..oh wow, lemme think...how would it look?

Help me out here, Shimmy. How would it look? Uhhh.........

Getting better all the time.
http://www.nativemagazine.com

"Goodnight, Betty Davis"...a work in progress.
http://www.geocities.com/apokalypznow/goodnight.html

HipHopIsDead.
http://www.geocities.com/madstrangers
(it's here.)

>Love is "the merging of self
>with the other" or "becoming
>one with the world" which
>incumbent on a highly spiritual
>experience.

I can get with that. And I have loved like that. Don't get me started. But when I say I "love" someone, I have had that experience with them.


>This directly contradicts the
>European self-image of the "individual,"
>importance of materialism over spiritualism
>(i.e. separation of SPIRIT from
>all aspects of life).

ok....but uh, I don't live like that.


>This obvious contradiction at such a
>base level leads Westerners to
>make statements like "you can't
>help who you fall in
>love with." "Love" becomes
>a highly philosophic and abstract
>conception that allows the European
>to "talk" about it but
>not experience it. And
>when it is "experienced" it
>is unfamiliar and disregarded. For
>instance the "universal love" that
>a Christian professes is a
>farce. In the same breath
>they are called to destroy
>the "heathens" which has been
>done through physical death and
>torture or by conversion, which
>to the African is one
>in the same.

ok...but wtf does that have to do with what I said? or with the post in general???

>
>Besides the statement "you can't..." contradicts
>itself. EVERYONE CHOOSES who
>they want to "love." Noone
>"falls" in love with someone
>who they would not want
>to be involved with.

that's true. I'm not arguing that. What I was saying was that people, regardless of "race" or "color" do not always fit the mold they are put in by society. Therefore, "love," as the spiritual connection you profess it to be, can be felt/experienced/acted on/whatever by any two people who define love in that same way.


>This statement "mystifies" love so
>the European can "think" they
>can experience it.
>
>ACTIONS speak louder than words.

nobody said they didn't.

L.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
KizzMyBlakAzz: you've made yourself a shell
KizzMyBlakAzz: i know you're soft and gooey on the inside
LHoney17: I know I am....never said I wasn't
LHoney17: but that doesn't mean I get stepped on or that I'm not strong
KizzMyBlakAzz: Gooey
LHoney17: lol
KizzMyBlakAzz: Caramel
KizzMyBlakAzz: Center
LHoney17: lol....well that's a nice way to think of it
KizzMyBlakAzz: with like a hard choclate shell
LHoney17: think I'll put that in a personal ad
KizzMyBlakAzz: You're a Rollo
LHoney17: lmao
KizzMyBlakAzz: lmao

When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love has always won. There have been tyrants and murderers
and for a time they seem invincible but in the end, they always fall -- think of it, ALWAYS. ~~Mahatma Gandhi

the question was NOT "what is love"

the question was addressing how we feel about interracial dating.

when I say you can't choose who you fall in love with, I mean you can't always choose the packaging. If you love someone for who they are (i.e. personality, spirit, mind, etc...in my opinion what you should ALWAYS ultimately love a person for), then you can't always say "well, I'm going to CHOOSE never to fall in love with a white/Asian/Latino/whoever" If you meet someone and you can vibe with them, then that is what it is.

Maybe you can. Everybody's different.

But I just wanted to clear that up.

Calm down.

L.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
KizzMyBlakAzz: you've made yourself a shell
KizzMyBlakAzz: i know you're soft and gooey on the inside
LHoney17: I know I am....never said I wasn't
LHoney17: but that doesn't mean I get stepped on or that I'm not strong
KizzMyBlakAzz: Gooey
LHoney17: lol
KizzMyBlakAzz: Caramel
KizzMyBlakAzz: Center
LHoney17: lol....well that's a nice way to think of it
KizzMyBlakAzz: with like a hard choclate shell
LHoney17: think I'll put that in a personal ad
KizzMyBlakAzz: You're a Rollo
LHoney17: lmao
KizzMyBlakAzz: lmao

When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love has always won. There have been tyrants and murderers
and for a time they seem invincible but in the end, they always fall -- think of it, ALWAYS. ~~Mahatma Gandhi

I think I was asking Solarus to expand on his understanding of love--a bit of a post jack there.....I'm still interested in some further discussion on what "love" may look like from a non-western perspective. Having grown up here--its all I've been exposed to, so I'm intrigued to see what Solarus' "perfect love" may look like...thats all.

Shimmy

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
KizzMyBlakAzz: you've made yourself a shell
KizzMyBlakAzz: i know you're soft and gooey on the inside
LHoney17: I know I am....never said I wasn't
LHoney17: but that doesn't mean I get stepped on or that I'm not strong
KizzMyBlakAzz: Gooey
LHoney17: lol
KizzMyBlakAzz: Caramel
KizzMyBlakAzz: Center
LHoney17: lol....well that's a nice way to think of it
KizzMyBlakAzz: with like a hard choclate shell
LHoney17: think I'll put that in a personal ad
KizzMyBlakAzz: You're a Rollo
LHoney17: lmao
KizzMyBlakAzz: lmao

When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love has always won. There have been tyrants and murderers
and for a time they seem invincible but in the end, they always fall -- think of it, ALWAYS. ~~Mahatma Gandhi

Love looks like this:

The truest embodiment of the statement: I am because we are; we are because I am.

It is going through the crap and really coming to know the other person the way you know yourself -- rife with the contradictions and unanswered thoughts.

Seeing yourself in someone and looking at yourself and seeing yourself in them.

It has less to do with "love" as it does a deep, deep friendship that connects on the physical/spiritual level.

It is beginning at the bottom of the mountain instead of on the top which is how we are taught as Westerners (yes, my partner and I have worked a lot on our relationship to get it where it is something that will endure)

Recognizing your weaknesses and the other person being the answer or "grounding" of them.

Bringing you relationship out into a community of people who know and have relationships with both people in the relationships and the couple as one person. Engaging in other couple's rituals because it renews your bond as well as their's.


Shimmy, you asked a hard one here... I think I know, but it defies words or explanaion... Just... even when I feel crappy, I have never felt better in my whole life.

Peace,

Q

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^*********^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Uplifting thoughts:

"We are the end result of our ancestors prayers as they died. We you are the sum total of their answered prayers."

"I am because we are; we are because I am."

Thanks Cued.
I especially like this....It is beginning at the bottom of the mountain instead of on the top which is how we are taught as Westerners.

Life, and love, pretty fascinating stuff...

Shimmy

Shimmy!

I just thought of another way it looks...

Falling in love is only a _signaling_ that a journey is to begin, not the end of it.

Q

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^*********^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Uplifting thoughts:

"We are the end result of our ancestors prayers as they died. We you are the sum total of their answered prayers."

"I am because we are; we are because I am."

Amongst my circle of friends we often talk about "journeys".We use it to describe the "process" rather than the end results. This comes about after much experience with things ending up in the last place you'd expect. The whole ability to give up the need to control the "end", appreciate the road travelled.

I have internalized this to such an extent that now when people ask me what my goals are---I can't answer. I just know that I won't define it--and prefer to enjoy the "journey" and wonder in awe where it will take me.

Yum!!

Shimmy

...but would somebody please tell me what is meant by "westerner" here? I'm having a hard time figuring out who that group includes/excludes.

---
http://whatisay.org

refers to anyone succumbing to a European-centered cultural core. "Westerner" is a preferred term over "European" as not to cause more confusion (and debate) when discussing Americans and/or non-white individuals adhering to a European cultural core. American culture is founded on European cultural principles. While it is distinct on the surface (as European nations are from one another), there are certain foundational characteristics that connect it to a parental European cultural base.

That help?

PEace
Solarus

"Activism is the practice of using an internal, self-determining source of power to live one's life and/or enact some sort of change. Power is the ability to define reality, while self-determination is to decide or define one's self. Therefore activism, is not simply something done to right some wrong or to fight some cause but rather it is a way of life. Activism is the way of life where one can define self and change anything that may impede or control the reality that one chooses to live."-Solarus

But don't render yourself powerless.

CHOOSE WHO YOU LOVE.

PEace
Solarus

"Activism is the practice of using an internal, self-determining source of power to live one's life and/or enact some sort of change. Power is the ability to define reality, while self-determination is to decide or define one's self. Therefore activism, is not simply something done to right some wrong or to fight some cause but rather it is a way of life. Activism is the way of life where one can define self and change anything that may impede or control the reality that one chooses to live."-Solarus

Check your inbox......sorry it took so long; I was unaware that I had messages until today.

I still wanna lick Beyonce's legs.
Thanks for reading. I love you.

"What are you but my reflection, who am I to judge or strike you down?" - MJK

In Rotation:
LTJ Bukem - Journey Inwards
Fiona Apple - Tidal
Bob Marley - Kaya
Jay Dee - Welcome To Detroit
Led Zeppelin - Houses Of The Holy
Sade - Lovers Rock

>This type of mentality is why
>Western divorce rates are so
>high. Westerners do not
>have CLUE WHAT "LOVE" IS!!!

I think this is a great point. I've never thought about it in these terms before, but maybe it is possible to say that people often just throw caution to the wind and assume that wherever there's a storm of emotion, that's all that's necessary.

One of my favorite books is _The Screwtape Letters,_ by C. S. Lewis. There's a section in there...I don't have it with me right now so I gotta paraphrase, where he talks about how often people think that "falling in love" is a prerequisite for marriage. "As if a commitment to lifelong loyalty and mutual help were anything less than a storm of emotion." (Or something like that.) I guess this conversation wasn't originally about marriage, it was about interracial dating. Two different things. Your point just got me all fired up tho'. Hey, it all relates.

My feeling about interracial dating (and I've done it before) is that when you meet a good person for you, you've just met a good person, no matter who they are. Period, paragraph end.

---
http://whatisay.org

I agree with you...

As for Jill..at a show in VA I went to she talked about this..claryfied that she is not a racist. Just, "do you remember me?"

Black men dating white women treating the black woman like she don't exist as part of his culture anymore.

To put it at short.

I usually don't post on these boards, but I felt the need today. I am mixed, bi-racial, whatever you want to call it. My parents got stares, comments and were discriminated against all the time. Thankfully they said, 'fuck society, we're in love', and I am here today. And they were right- fuck society and all of its opinions on what you CAN and CANNOT do. Fuck the looks. Fuck the hateful words. Fuck the bullshit.
I live in the US Virgin Islands, otherwise known as the "Black states." There is not much racism here, and its strange to see it so prevalent on these boards, not coming from white people. Its coming from brothers and sisters. Close minded brothers and sisters. Brothers and sisters that do not seem to realize that it takes ONE generation of a mulatto child to 'kill off' the European in them and FIVE generations to kill off the African. I would expect this from Europeans, not from BLACK PEOPLE.
My point is this: children of inter-racial relationships are a blessing. Being in love is a blessing. And if your love does not look like your Momma, oh well. My brother's wife looks nothing like his Irish mother. But he's not wrong is he? I am very glad I don't have to put up with America's bullshit on who you can and can't love. Cause here in the Carribean, we love who we want. And forget anyone who has something to say about it.

________________________________________
-representin the real since tuesday
-illified illustrated

My point is this: children of inter-racial relationships are a blessing. Being in love is a blessing. And if your love does not look like your Momma, oh well.

true though that anyone who makes stupid rules like "i'm only gonna date white women" or any dumbass who can spit on people who're the same color as themselves are just that, DUMBASSES

and true that anyone who's got their feelins for their momma or anyshit tied up in their decisions of who they date is a dumbass and will pay later in life for such a shallow relationship

cuz a shallow relationship will eat away at you like acid

not a curse, just the truth

but there are A LOT OF DUMBASSES AROUND, perpetuatin all this animosity


==**peace**==

"Words without work is not enough." Sizzla

There is more danger in the word exotic than in a sharpened machete --me

"The logic of divide and rule is still valid today." Capleton

DPP; DomePoem Poets; Vibe Nation; One ppl under the spoken word

Who cares?! We are all HUMANS. Nothing will change that... There is no such thing as one human better than the other... What counts is culture... That is what we have to save, just remember your heritage! Teach your children their heritage, where they came from, NO MATTER WHAT COLOR THEY ARE. In the end, we all came from one place... You can't run from that... And in the end... It's our minds... Our souls... that should count... Not the color of someone's skin.

blessed be,
~ms hannum~

:7
Dove
~Sheepish Lordess of Chaos~

"Dumping is such a harsh word. Let's just say I'm replacing you." ~ Homer Simpson

Peep this:
http://www.flashnewsmag.com

Native 3
http://www.nativemagazine.com

Unique Perspective
http://www.rapsheet.com

You're right, everyone has a right to love who they want to.
But the Caribbean isn't a racial haven, trust that.

Yabbadabbadoozilla! (c) Bootzilla
http://www.funkknots.com
http://www.boondocks.net
http://www.cartoonista.com
http://www.pocho.com

"You might as well pay attention/ you can't afford free speech" -George Clinton

"People need to stop saying that there is one way to be--and then the issue will disappear." Ntozake Shange-interview in _Mother_ _Jones_

I am not saying that the Caribbean is racial heaven; what I am saying is this: when we as Black people are the majority, as it is here in St. Thomas, there is bound to be less racism. When I have visited the states, I have been met with more animosity from Black and white people, sometimes for no reason. Even while walking down the street with a white friend, of the same sex, I have gotten funny looks and even rude comments. When first reading these boards, I was surprised to find Black people giving each other a hard time about inter-racial dating... white people, I would understand more. Maybe its just because I have not lived around many white people, but I figured they were worse. I hope I wasn't wrong.

Ya'll mad ethe bed...now lay in it...

"REAL RECOGNIZE REAL, and even more than that, the fake, they REALLY REALLY recognize REAL!" -BlackThought

"STAY BLACK,STAY BLACK,STAY BLACK,STAY BLACK" -Mos Def

btw what does your name mean?

Nuwb or "blackness" is supreme balance before the chaos was introduced. It was a state of sound, right reasoning. That darkness was triple darkness, which is what you would call the absence of consciousness, or the state of being awoke. In actuality, the dream state is more real and peaceful than the chaos you meet once you are awake. A form of spiritual darkness responsible for the spark that turned on the light that is the life and intellect of all who breathe and think.
When the light is turned on again, the chaos begins. The differentiation begins. The separation begins. The rights and the wrongs, the goodness and the badness; the supreme balance is broken and the ego begins to verse the "I."

love is love. It cant be helped, it just happens. I love my man & he loves me. That is all that counts. Ignorance, however, can be helped. People get educated.

"if you want to feel me baby, better be divine" - Erykah Badu

"Love...it ain't nothin but a word."
-Talib Kweli



It's a never ending battle. Should people date outside of their race or should they stay with the race they are. We live in a interracial country, that's what this society is. The only way to stop interracial dating is to stop interracial contact, that way you will never know the way an asian's eyes look up close, the way copper-tone skin looks in the sunlight, or how black skin looks when it's wet and thus not be attracted to it. Being single, topics like these make me wonder what sheet music everyone is reading from and whether I should change my toon. Jill Scott put out a good point, it's almost like bacl when girls in high school go for older guys and neglect to reconize those in their age group because of stereotypes or myths. Hate gives way to hate, views are just how one looks at things. We need to leave it at that.


"Reason for the cheer, all tempture here."
"Ground zero degrees and the weather feels fine."

-Dove

"I got soul cause I'm swimmin in the De La/ I'm in my hood man, my manhood worries ya."

-WonderWhy

I think that, as we grow older and expand our awareness of things outside of the boundaries of race, we tend to place less value on things like this. I’ve been fortunate enough to be able to duck my head into various windows in my life and see things for what they are on the inside. This is probably why I’ve never truly been fazed by the racial identities of the women I’ve dated in the past. The more you realize what life is, and the more you understand that the “human” enemy is more of a threat to our existence than any other enemy, the less you are concerned with shit like your girl’s inability to boil chit’lins just the way your grandmama did.

Right this minute, I’m involved with a very special woman who happens to be—can you guess?—white. I’m well aware of the theories that surround a decision like this—“remember me? Your soul sister?” “These white b---hes are taking all the good brothers from us.” “He’s only with her because she won’t put a foot in his ass like a good black woman will…” Let’s just relax on this crap for a second. If your mind is restricted to the limiting philosophies and politics of “human” society, then these are things you may say or believe. I don’t feel a need to defend my choice, because I honestly believe that some things mean just a liiiiitle bit more in this world.

Will I get harassed? Will I get beat down in Bensonhurst? Who knows? Who cares? Do you care about the right things? Are you trying to free your mind? Are you disgusted? Do you speak in whispers of disgust because I found love in your subconscious archnemesis? Get off that shit…I swear to God, man


Getting better all the time.
http://www.nativemagazine.com

"Goodnight, Betty Davis"...a work in progress.
http://www.geocities.com/apokalypznow/goodnight.html

HipHopIsDead.
http://www.geocities.com/madstrangers
(it's here.)

What about black women dating white guys

There IS no "what about..."

There shouldn't be conditions or loopholes in this whole thing.


Getting better all the time.
http://www.nativemagazine.com

"Goodnight, Betty Davis"...a work in progress.
http://www.geocities.com/apokalypznow/goodnight.html

HipHopIsDead.
http://www.geocities.com/madstrangers
(it's here.)

>Do you speak in
>whispers of disgust because I
>found love in your subconscious
>archnemesis?

Nice!

Just thought I'd throw that in there . . .

Giving you true calcio since 1986

Marinera . . . It's a damn tasty sauce y'all . . .

AIM: Marinera81
MAIL: jonah_b27@hotmail.com

Check out http://www.greatergood.com Help end world hunger, save the rainforest, help stop AIDS in Africa, help children survive in 3rd world countries, stop breast cancer, and give treatment to landmine victims in less than a minute a day! FOR FREE! NO FORMS TO FILL OUT AND NO STRINGS! REALLY!!!

To all,

I'm glad my post has provoked some insightful thought and some positive response. But in this case i feel all response is positive. The only solace I can ever find in the cold stares or rude remarks my girlfriend and I receive is the fact that I am happy to see that race is still an issue, as it should be. While I am discouraged that closed minds still prevail at times, I feel my situation, if anything can help others open up.
The ones with the cold eyes have no idea the love that is shared by this black and white duo. Perhaps when they get home they realize the true fights regarding race should be fought against the disenfranchisement of black voters (see Florida) police brutality (see NYPD) black males in prison (see Rikers) and an overall absence of apathy for these racist ills (see everywhere) Not love between two adults.
Until then I'll continue to love this girl, treat her like the Black Queen she is. So anyone who thinks this Irish boy from Flatbush can't do that, will just have to stare and deal with that shit. Peace to all, keep thinking and writing.

FXS

A black friend of mine is married to a white women, together they have two beatiful children. her parents family are from the south. they had never befriended non white people before their daugher married a black man and were of course prejudice. it was tough at first but now they are all friends. He believes that the only way racism will ever die is if cultures blend together.

I interracially date often and I've had people actually smile at me and whomever i'm out with. Within the last few years, I have recieved almost no hostility. I think racism is as strong as it ever was for a certain groups of people (ie republicans), but for many other groups we are loving each other more than ever.

1love!

Exactly, when you get on that black vs. Euro shit your stereo typing, no one is the same. Love who you love and don't worry about what other people think, because if they think it's wrong then they're stupid, and ignorant. And will probably die sad and lonely without ever truely living



One Love!

Obviously, love is not about what race a person is. We all live in a world that has created this illusion that class, race, gender, etc. matter. If you are white it is hard to imagine being aware of prejudice and double-standards every day. We live in a world where ego and personality is nurtured--not spirituality. That is why I don't have much luck finding men on my level.

I have had relationships white men and Black men but it was more platonic with the white guys. Once I got close with a white male friend. We were high-school pals. I went to college a year earlier than he did and when he came to NYC we started getting closer.

One day his mother came up and we went out on the town. I took them to MOMA and the Metropolitan Museum of Art. We had fun. When we got back his mother wanted to pay me for the day (seriously!) and I declined her tip. I was annoyed but I shrugged it off. Later, my friend came to my room and tried to apologize for his mother's behavior. I accepted the apology but I wondered if down deep he was like his mother. She raised him.

I never did go all the way with my friend but I saw in myself a willingness to let people alone with their illusions and their ignorance. I did not judge my friend based on his mother's actions and we remained friends until I moved away after my graduation. Race is a reality in this society and for me it's hard imagining myself coming home to a man who can't relate to living Black. I feel like I would have to hold myself back or compromise an important part of my life.

I need someone who has the sensitivity of what being Black means and what it is like. I need someone that can truly understand, do more than sympathize or listen to my stories. I need someone who relates. I am not saying a white man can't be that person but chances are slim I will ever find someone white who really understands that plus all the other things that will allow me to be open and affirm life.

I have been Black in a white world most of my life and I am comfortable being me in that world. Most of the time I am myself and I love myself most of all. The American way of life has crammed white culture into my mind and psyche since I was a baby so I know what white is, what white means. I can talk the talk and relate to white people. But can white people really relate to me? Many white people get defensive when Black people talk about their feelings, their reality so why try?



"Know thyself"

"Let your conduct be without covetousness; be content with such things as you have. For He Himself has said, "I will never leave you or forsake you". So we may boldly say, "The Lord is my helper, I will not fear. What can man do to me?"
-- Hebrews 13:5,6

"There is a difference between knowing the path and walking the path"
--Morpheus in "The Matrix"

"It's our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities"- Dumbledore to Harry Potter "Chamber of Secrets"

>Race is a reality in
>this society and for me
>it's hard imagining myself coming
>home to a man who
>can't relate to living Black.
> I feel like I
>would have to hold myself
>back or compromise an important
>part of my life.
>
>I need someone who has the
>sensitivity of what being Black
>means and what it is
>like. I need someone
>that can truly understand, do
>more than sympathize or listen
>to my stories

I've actually never thought about this. Thanx for sharing

> The American way of
>life has crammed white culture
>into my mind and psyche
>since I was a baby
>so I know what white
>is, what white means.
>I can talk the talk
>and relate to white people.
> But can white people
>really relate to me?

But u still don't (and never will) understand exactly how it feels 2 b white. Just the same as I, no matter how much i am around blacks, never will understand how it feels 2 b black.

>Many white people get defensive when Black people talk about
>their feelings, their reallity so why try?

I dunno why this happens,I guess it depends on the way u express yourself. If I feel like someone is attacking me or tryin 2 hold me resonsible 4 something I feel I didn't take part in then I guess I could react like that.

Sometimes I feel like I'm involuntary takin part in racist actions just by being white. And i really hate it when people are tryin 2 make everything racial.(If I call u an ass it's because u're being one. It got nothing to do with the color of ur skin so please don't label me a racist!)

I think people of all races experience prejudice.(and not only because of their race,but 4 a lot of other reasons as well)

Basically, stereotypin sucks. And I think if someone wanna exclude a certain group of people from their list of potential partners, they might loose out on something good. Maybe the love u can't seem 2 find u would have find in that black/white/Asian (or whateva) person u never got 2 know, if u'd only been a bit more open minded..

Love has no color


-------
Why must my arms feel so empty 4 what my heart still holds? -Musiq

U couldn't hang if u was a poster. -Common

In some ways you missed the point but that's cool. My relationships with white folks and asian folks and others have been very, VERY close but I was always aware that there was a part of myself that would never be understood or appreciated by white folks.

Being white in a society that puts whiteness on a pedestal it is hard to imagine not knowing yourself, not knowing why society would never let you fit in because you do not fit the picture (as a Black person). When I was a child I was heart broken about it...for a while. It was actually white people who helped me understand I had to turn away from society's standards and illusions to find myself, to love myself, to be open to life. I embraced the kid I saw in the mirror and in time my heart grew stronger and I learned not to hate those who judged me by the skin I am in.

The first thing I learned in school was that Black kids were not in the text books (Dick & Jane= white) and the first pictures I saw on tv were white. Love is not a color but life is often not the same as love. For me love is being who you are, embracing who you are despite society's standards, despite whether or not it makes people uncomfortable.

I am no longer the victim or product of my environment, of society. I am learning what it is like to be free. If you ask any of the non-Black people I have had relationships with they will tell you how open I was even when other's weren't.


"Know thyself"

"Let your conduct be without covetousness; be content with such things as you have. For He Himself has said, "I will never leave you or forsake you". So we may boldly say, "The Lord is my helper, I will not fear. What can man do to me?"
-- Hebrews 13:5,6

"There is a difference between knowing the path and walking the path"
--Morpheus in "The Matrix"

"It's our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities"- Dumbledore to Harry Potter "Chamber of Secrets"

The last part of my post wasn't 2 u personally, just my thoughts on the subject "interracial luv" in general.

Keep shining girl!

-------
Why must my arms feel so empty 4 what my heart still holds? -Musiq

U couldn't hang if u was a poster. -Common

I like a lot of what you're saying, and I am an Asian-Am. in Japan and just to let you know even in an Asian country the textbook is not filled with Asian people, it is filled with a whole hell of a lot of white people, which kind of kills our self image for self love too especially asian men. It is just the whole colonialism mindset.

books, movies, etc. seem to be either black or white or asian or hispanic or whatever, but the world i live in is a whole buncha shades and cultures

why doesn't anything ever reflect that? why do i have to choose to do this black thing or this white thing?

how can you tell when you're cooking vegetables in a pan with some oil you keep by the stove at which point you are cooking an asian dish?

y'know what i mean?



==**peace**==

"Words without work is not enough." Sizzla

There is more danger in the word exotic than in a sharpened machete --me

"The logic of divide and rule is still valid today." Capleton

DPP; DomePoem Poets; Vibe Nation; One ppl under the spoken word

I am so tired of this idea floating around in the Black community that for some reason Black women (or Black men, I guess)are hating on love, I mean genuine, strip you of your skin, heart-to-heart, soul-to-soul kind of love. If you are in LOVE with someone of a different race, I can't tell you nothin' but go 'head. With that said, I am one of those "sistas" who looks twice when I see a White woman with a Black man. I wonder if she really loves him, if her parents know about him, if she would truly consider marrying him, if she approached him in the first place because she was curious about the rumors of his sexual prowess, if she's ever called someone a "nigger," if she, 50 years ago, would have slept with that Black man and if she got caught, would she have cried rape, and watched him be lynched.

I wonder these things because of the volatile, often violent relationship between Black and White in our society. It's sad that sometimes love can't even avoid being politicized, but in this country, Black and White is always political, and anyone who doesn't understand that is just ignorant.

But while I wonder things about her, I also wonder thing about him...like, has he been influenced by media standards of beauty, if they have children, will he let her bring White barbies into the house, so that his bi-racial, curly-haired children can get an early start on a self-hate complex, does he know about the social connotations that stem back to slavery where White women represented freedom and status, whereas Black women represented slavery and poverty, has he truly asked himself these questions and is he absolutely sure that his "love" is in no way influenced by the media, history, or a White supremacist society, does he hate himself and not want to look at what reminds him of himself, his hair, skin, nose, his past.

I wonder these things because socialization, unfortunately, has a lot to do with the choices we make. If he is dating a White woman out of conformity to a White supremacist ideal, then I consider that a slap in the face. In that single gesture, subconscious or conscious, he is calling me ugly, stupid, and over-bearing. I am offended by that, and think that I have every right to be. However, if he is at peace with himself and his Blackness, and is dating a White woman because her soul is a match to his, because she completes him on a level that is beyond our earthly vocabulary, beyond our earthly bodies even, if the stars spell their names and the sun rises and sets in each others' eyes, then I can't say a damn thing, nor would I want to.

It's sad but I feel that the first idea, the fact that the socialization of Whiteness as beautiful and smart is powerful, probably explains most interracial (Black male/White female) relationships, which is nobody's fault in the actual relationships. Ultimately, I hope that we can all find someone who we connect with and can stay with, regardless of race and outside of political realities.

By the way, I am a Korean and Black woman with a Black and White fiancee. Won't our kids be cute?

I don't know if you are aware of this, but Pocahontas is not someone you should be proud to link your name up to. She was trifiling, back-stabbing, she sold her own people out countless times. Maybe you weren't aware of that, seeing as white America glorifies her existence; of course she was with a white man. Did you think about that when you wrote about inter-racial dating? How ironic.

Actually, my name is a joke. It's a joke between some friends and me...it's sort of a satirical take on an idea my friends and I had on several issues, on several levels. One, we thought, what if the Disney monopoly got so bad that we had to buy our names from them...but could only use names that were in their movies, two, we were addressing physical stereotypes. My friend is Korean, but everyone always calls her Chinese, she's Mulan, me, I'm Korean and Black but people always assume I'm Native American, hence Pocahontas, with all of the false notions of who she was as a part of the satire...you could've messaged me to asked me about my name like some other folks have as opposed to trying to "call me out" on this board. So, what does my coice of name have to do with my opinion of interracial dating again?In the end, you look kind of silly because you tried to put it down, but didn't even know where I was coming from...nic try though...



************************************************************
"A man is free, or he is not. There can be no apprenticeship for freedom."
--Amiri Baraka

Jesus was Black ya'll...no joke.

"Oh no, here comes that sun again. That means another day, without you my friend. And it hurts to look into the mirror at myself, and it hurts even more to have to be with somebody else.
And it's so hard to do, and so easy to say,
But sometimes, sometimes, you just have to walk away."
--Ben Harper

The worst Okayplayer mistake my friend ever made? I went with three of my friends to the Saturday Oakland Okayplayer show back in November. Anyway, we got separated into groups of two during the show, and after the show, we couldn't find each other, and after spending a weekend together, me and my sistas were a little testy anyway. Not finding each other directly after the show further aggravated the situation. So anyway, one of my friends was hella pissed, and decided to walk in front of all of us. On the way back to the car, she pushed through a group of brothas who were chillin' by the side of the theater, hella mad-doggin' folks, and one of the dudes (shorter, light-skinded) in an effort to cheer her up said, "Hey, smile!" She turned around and gave this dude the ugliest, most sarcastic smile in the world, and then kept walking. After walking in utter silence for a block, one of my other friends who watched the exchange said, "Why did you dis Scratch like that?"

I didn't intend to 'call you out' on some message boards. If you are that sensitive I apologize. A lot of people have been brainwashed and have no idea what the real deal is. So there you have it. And also, I am new to these boards; I didn't know I could email you. But I doubt I would have anyways, because all I wanted was an explanation. Most non-American Indians have no idea what pocahontas stood for, they just accept what they learned in 3rd grade history class.

>It's sad but I feel that
>the first idea, the fact
>that the socialization of Whiteness
>as beautiful and smart is
>powerful, probably explains most interracial
>(Black male/White female) relationships, which
>is nobody's fault in the
>actual relationships.

What do you think about White male/Black female relationships?

There are those sistas, though I've only seen them on Queen Latifah and Jenny Jones, who claim that all brothas are worthless or ugly. This is classic self-hate as well, and is unfortunate. I just think that the effects of socialization (i.e. White women = beauty) affect Black women in terms of finding anyone, because all men of all races are subject to it. One could argue that, "Well White men = power and money according to that same socialization." Which is true, but I also think, and this is just opinion, that White men as a whole are much less likely to approach a Black women in the first place, than a Black male is likely to approach a White woman. I think the latter is much more common, and I can't explain that exactly. The bottom line is that any relationship, regardless of which gender is what race, that is based on the desire of one of the partners to "escape" who he or she really is, and to detach from his or her history or community is not a healthy one, individually or collectively. Any relationship spawned from self-hate, even ones that aren't interracial, is doomed.

>>It's sad but I feel that
>>the first idea, the fact
>>that the socialization of Whiteness
>>as beautiful and smart is
>>powerful, probably explains most interracial
>>(Black male/White female) relationships, which
>>is nobody's fault in the
>>actual relationships.
>
>What do you think about White
>male/Black female relationships?


************************************************************
"A man is free, or he is not. There can be no apprenticeship for freedom."
--Amiri Baraka

Jesus was Black ya'll...no joke.

"Oh no, here comes that sun again. That means another day, without you my friend. And it hurts to look into the mirror at myself, and it hurts even more to have to be with somebody else.
And it's so hard to do, and so easy to say,
But sometimes, sometimes, you just have to walk away."
--Ben Harper

The worst Okayplayer mistake my friend ever made? I went with three of my friends to the Saturday Oakland Okayplayer show back in November. Anyway, we got separated into groups of two during the show, and after the show, we couldn't find each other, and after spending a weekend together, me and my sistas were a little testy anyway. Not finding each other directly after the show further aggravated the situation. So anyway, one of my friends was hella pissed, and decided to walk in front of all of us. On the way back to the car, she pushed through a group of brothas who were chillin' by the side of the theater, hella mad-doggin' folks, and one of the dudes (shorter, light-skinded) in an effort to cheer her up said, "Hey, smile!" She turned around and gave this dude the ugliest, most sarcastic smile in the world, and then kept walking. After walking in utter silence for a block, one of my other friends who watched the exchange said, "Why did you dis Scratch like that?"

n/m

Hotep

>By the way, I am a
>Korean and Black woman with
>a Black and White fiancee.
> Won't our kids be
>cute?

This is a sad and pitiful statement.

PEace
Solarus

"Activism is the practice of using an internal, self-determining source of power to live one's life and/or enact some sort of change. Power is the ability to define reality, while self-determination is to decide or define one's self. Therefore activism, is not simply something done to right some wrong or to fight some cause but rather it is a way of life. Activism is the way of life where one can define self and change anything that may impede or control the reality that one chooses to live."-Solarus

>This is a sad and pitiful
>statement.

_this_ is the statement that is sad and pitiful. you are addressing a mixed race woman with a mixed race fiance, who is anticipating beautiful children. what should she do, in your opinion? mourn her heritage? not breed? hate her own children? get real, solarus.

wtf is up with coloured ppl discriminating towards eachother? wtf is up with coloured ppl discriminating period?
we know how much that shit hurts so why do it to someone else, especially one of our own kind?

much luv to all my multiracial ppl out there... keep bringing beautiful babies into this world... but remember to make sure they know where they're from so they know who they are...

'Arigato, to all my people in Japan,
Whetha ya rockin Cardier or Pierre
Cardan,
I'm bargin through like "excuse I beg
ya pardon"
I crush carbon copy emcees with
clone jargon'
Black Thought - Act Fore... (hidden
track)

you know a klansmember would've most likely said the exact thing you just did if he read that post (assuming he's literate)... so please, explain what the difference between you and him would be...
if you want, I can help you with that... the answer is absolutely nothing... a racist is a racist, regardless


'Arigato, to all my people in Japan,
Whetha ya rockin Cardier or Pierre
Cardan,
I'm bargin through like "excuse I beg
ya pardon"
I crush carbon copy emcees with
clone jargon'
Black Thought - Act Fore... (hidden
track)

the ignorant responses that I got from making this statement.

I said it is pitiful NOT because of the birth of multiracial children; INSTEAD I made the statement because I am use to hearing statements about "mixed" children being somehow MORE BEAUTIFUL than "nonmixed." Especially the whole "Cablackasian" thing is pitiful. "Brown skin with CHinky eyes."

Negroes always got to have something ELSE in them to make themselves more beautiful.

Although this meaning isn't necessarily the view that pocahontas might hold but I suspect it is so (especially considering the poor choice of name, i hope this isn't a BIRTH name) and I wanted to how okayboot... uhm.... okayplayers responded.

I'm racist... That's funny. :D

I was even compared to a klansman...

That's hilarious! :7


PEace
Solarus
"Activism is the practice of using an internal, self-determining source of power to live one's life and/or enact some sort of change. Power is the ability to define reality, while self-determination is to decide or define one's self. Therefore activism, is not simply something done to right some wrong or to fight some cause but rather it is a way of life. Activism is the way of life where one can define self and change anything that may impede or control the reality that one chooses to live."-Solarus

Nowhere in that post did it say "more beautiful"... and you have the nerve to call others ignorant... you can't even read properly for crying out loud...


'Arigato, to all my people in Japan,
Whetha ya rockin Cardier or Pierre
Cardan,
I'm bargin through like "excuse I beg
ya pardon"
I crush carbon copy emcees with
clone jargon'
Black Thought - Act Fore... (hidden
track)

Hotep

Your school never focused on "reading comprehension" did it?


I said :

"INSTEAD I made the statement because I am use to hearing statements about "mixed" children being somehow MORE BEAUTIFUL than "nonmixed." "

This was followed by:



"Although this meaning isn't necessarily the view that pocahontas might hold... I wanted to (see) how okayboot... uhm.... okayplayers responded."

Either read or be quiet.

Don't let your emotions blind you from the message.

PEace
Solarus






"Activism is the practice of using an internal, self-determining source of power to live one's life and/or enact some sort of change. Power is the ability to define reality, while self-determination is to decide or define one's self. Therefore activism, is not simply something done to right some wrong or to fight some cause but rather it is a way of life. Activism is the way of life where one can define self and change anything that may impede or control the reality that one chooses to live."-Solarus

Look, I said the "Won't our kids be cute?" to lighten up my post...shit, the reality is that given any race, my kids could look terrible or they could look great, it doesn't really matter, but that's besides the point. I wanted to let folks know that I am mixed race, because that may have given people some insight as to who I am and where I'm coming from on the issue. When I finished typing about what I am and what my boyfriend is, I just got excited about our prospects. I would have typed the same damn thing if I was dating anyone with whom I had plans to marry and to raise a family. I meant the comment in a light-hearted way, not in whatever why you took it...and looking back at it, since you don't know me, I guess it could easily be misconstrued as me thinking that my kids would be cute precisely BECAUSE we are both mixed, which would contradict my whole premise, and everything good and positive that find Blackness to be...it's just not true, and I'm sorry if you took it that way.

************************************************************
"A man is free, or he is not. There can be no apprenticeship for freedom."
--Amiri Baraka

Jesus was Black ya'll...no joke.

"Oh no, here comes that sun again. That means another day, without you my friend. And it hurts to look into the mirror at myself, and it hurts even more to have to be with somebody else.
And it's so hard to do, and so easy to say,
But sometimes, sometimes, you just have to walk away."
--Ben Harper

The worst Okayplayer mistake my friend ever made? I went with three of my friends to the Saturday Oakland Okayplayer show back in November. Anyway, we got separated into groups of two during the show, and after the show, we couldn't find each other, and after spending a weekend together, me and my sistas were a little testy anyway. Not finding each other directly after the show further aggravated the situation. So anyway, one of my friends was hella pissed, and decided to walk in front of all of us. On the way back to the car, she pushed through a group of brothas who were chillin' by the side of the theater, hella mad-doggin' folks, and one of the dudes (shorter, light-skinded) in an effort to cheer her up said, "Hey, smile!" She turned around and gave this dude the ugliest, most sarcastic smile in the world, and then kept walking. After walking in utter silence for a block, one of my other friends who watched the exchange said, "Why did you dis Scratch like that?"

Hotep

My response wasn't necessarily directed at you (if it doesn't apply). It was in response to sick mentality that negroes possess that could have been implied from your statement. The mentality of the perfect "grey race" as Larry crawford puts it. It is a race where all people mixed. In reality for negroes it is the dilution of anything African which is the worst thing anyone can be.

I responded in that manner to see how many bootlickers condemn me to hell.

negroes always show their true colors.

white folks... well they are white folks...

PEace
Solarus


"Activism is the practice of using an internal, self-determining source of power to live one's life and/or enact some sort of change. Power is the ability to define reality, while self-determination is to decide or define one's self. Therefore activism, is not simply something done to right some wrong or to fight some cause but rather it is a way of life. Activism is the way of life where one can define self and change anything that may impede or control the reality that one chooses to live."-Solarus

But did I just understand you to say that anyone who disagrees with you is a bootlicker or is white so can't be listened to anyway?

Does that further your discussion or does that shut it down?

What is your goal here?

Peace.

There's no sense in being precise when you don't even know what you're talking about.
-- John von Neumann

Hotep

>But did I just understand you
>to say that anyone who
>disagrees with you is a
>bootlicker or is white so
>can't be listened to anyway?
>

What?! Where does this come from? You misunderstood.

"It was in response to sick mentality that negroes possess that could have been implied from your statement."

"In reality for negroes it is the dilution of anything African which is the worst thing anyone can be."

This is the message I was conveying.


>
>Does that further your discussion or
>does that shut it down?
>
>

"I responded in that manner to see how many bootlickers condemn me to hell."

I want people to show their true colors (or rather absence of it i.e. colorless "WE-ARE-the-Worldness").



>What is your goal here?
>

1. Let negroes (bootlickers) reveal themselves.
2. To have Afrikan warrior scholars step up.
3. To have lost souls find the WAY.

I don't care what white folks think but it is always interesting (and funny) to hear their opinions.

This is about nationbuilding AND nationdestroying.

PEace
Solarus

"Activism is the practice of using an internal, self-determining source of power to live one's life and/or enact some sort of change. Power is the ability to define reality, while self-determination is to decide or define one's self. Therefore activism, is not simply something done to right some wrong or to fight some cause but rather it is a way of life. Activism is the way of life where one can define self and change anything that may impede or control the reality that one chooses to live."-Solarus

that my original take was correct.

>"It was in response to sick
>mentality that negroes possess that
>could have been implied from
>your statement."
>
>"In reality for negroes it is
>the dilution of anything African
>which is the worst thing
>anyone can be."
>
>This is the message I was
>conveying.

this is the part I was referring to:

"I responded in that manner to see how many bootlickers condemn me to hell.

"negroes always show their true colors.

"white folks... well they are white folks..."

>I want people to show their
>true colors (or rather absence
>of it i.e. colorless "WE-ARE-the-Worldness").

In other words, you want to see who agrees with you and who doesn't. And anyone who doesn't is a bootlicker. Unless they are white. In which case they have nothing to add except perhaps amusement.


>1. Let negroes (bootlickers) reveal themselves.

i.e., those who disagree with you

>
>2. To have Afrikan warrior scholars
>step up.

i.e., those who agree with you

>3. To have lost souls find
>the WAY.

i.e., those who used to disagree with you but now agree with you. I see.

>
>I don't care what white folks
>think but it is always
>interesting (and funny) to hear
>their opinions.



>This is about nationbuilding AND nationdestroying.
>

I find it more and more difficult to take you seriously.

Peace.

There's no sense in being precise when you don't even know what you're talking about.
-- John von Neumann

It was supposed to go here.

************************************************************
"A man is free, or he is not. There can be no apprenticeship for freedom."
--Amiri Baraka

Jesus was Black ya'll...no joke.

"Oh no, here comes that sun again. That means another day, without you my friend. And it hurts to look into the mirror at myself, and it hurts even more to have to be with somebody else.
And it's so hard to do, and so easy to say,
But sometimes, sometimes, you just have to walk away."
--Ben Harper

The worst Okayplayer mistake my friend ever made? I went with three of my friends to the Saturday Oakland Okayplayer show back in November. Anyway, we got separated into groups of two during the show, and after the show, we couldn't find each other, and after spending a weekend together, me and my sistas were a little testy anyway. Not finding each other directly after the show further aggravated the situation. So anyway, one of my friends was hella pissed, and decided to walk in front of all of us. On the way back to the car, she pushed through a group of brothas who were chillin' by the side of the theater, hella mad-doggin' folks, and one of the dudes (shorter, light-skinded) in an effort to cheer her up said, "Hey, smile!" She turned around and gave this dude the ugliest, most sarcastic smile in the world, and then kept walking. After walking in utter silence for a block, one of my other friends who watched the exchange said, "Why did you dis Scratch like that?"

Sorry to clutter this board up with my online ineptitude. I just forgot which way the posts were going for a minute...OOPS!

;-)

************************************************************
"A man is free, or he is not. There can be no apprenticeship for freedom."
--Amiri Baraka

Jesus was Black ya'll...no joke.

"Oh no, here comes that sun again. That means another day, without you my friend. And it hurts to look into the mirror at myself, and it hurts even more to have to be with somebody else.
And it's so hard to do, and so easy to say,
But sometimes, sometimes, you just have to walk away."
--Ben Harper

The worst Okayplayer mistake my friend ever made? I went with three of my friends to the Saturday Oakland Okayplayer show back in November. Anyway, we got separated into groups of two during the show, and after the show, we couldn't find each other, and after spending a weekend together, me and my sistas were a little testy anyway. Not finding each other directly after the show further aggravated the situation. So anyway, one of my friends was hella pissed, and decided to walk in front of all of us. On the way back to the car, she pushed through a group of brothas who were chillin' by the side of the theater, hella mad-doggin' folks, and one of the dudes (shorter, light-skinded) in an effort to cheer her up said, "Hey, smile!" She turned around and gave this dude the ugliest, most sarcastic smile in the world, and then kept walking. After walking in utter silence for a block, one of my other friends who watched the exchange said, "Why did you dis Scratch like that?"

yes, how can I not agree that it should be that simple, but the truth of the matter is that it isn't. We live in a world that views Black and Asian women as sex objects and inanimate, the same can be said about Black men. Asian men are sexless and invisble. and whatever white men or women do, it is ok.
if two people are truly in love, then cool, best wishes. But if you're with a Black man, Black woman, white girl, white guy, asian girl, asian guy (not too many people choose to be with us) for a stereotypical reason then that's not cool (I was gonna say something rather strong here, but let's be calm about it).
As an Asian male, you don't know how much I get hated on by all men, if I date outside of my race, or even if I'm with a fine asian girl. and yes, it is white supremacy, whiteness is beautiful and if you're dating white you're dating up, and if you're white then you can pretty much date or screw anything you want and it is still ok. I don't let it get to me anymore, but when I see a white male with a Black/Latina/or Asian female, I wondered if she is just with her for "exoticness" and she is with him for "power," same thing when I view white women with other races. I am trying to not let this get to me anymore.
By the way, I am an Asian male, dating an African-American woman, and my kids are gonna marry Pocahontas (you're Indian? right?) kids..........peace

we will never truly be free as a HUMAN RACE until we put an end to White supremacy and racism (and self-hatred).


"Apathy is a solution.
It's easier to lose yourself in drugs than to cope with life.
It's easier to steal what you want than it is to earn it.
It's easier to beat a child than it is to raise it. Hell,... Love costs, it takes effort and work."- from "Seven" (M. Freeman)

...in an IDEAL world people would be judged by their spirituality, including the ability to find and connect with their "soul mate" regardless of their color. Sometimes this happens but most times a whole lot of other more superficial characteristics determine attraction (white, light, dark, black, etc.)

In the real world there are thousands of little Black girls that pick white dolls over black ones because society instills self-hatred in them (school, etc.). By the time they are teenagers they have to deal all kinds of pubescent issues along with the fact that they will never be like the light-skinned, white, or bright girls they see on TV, in magazines, etc. These same girls grow up and react negatively to white women with Black men because this affirms to the low self-esteem nurtured in them from school and often at home. How many Black women use the term "good hair" to describe a friend or family member with wavy to straight hair?

Many Black men see the same images and they, too, often prize lighter women or women with long, wavy to straight hair. A Black person has to be really together and aware to value course hair (naps), dark skin, broad noses and other African features. Many white people are raised to value white/European features so they don't understand how these values warp race relations in this society.

This is why interracial relationships draw so much attention, anger, disapproval and controversy. As a Black teenage girl I would only date the darkest Black guys with African features and that was considered rebellion.

A lot of people are acting like these social issues don't exist, that white supremacy doesn't exist and that is the real problem.


"Know thyself"

"Let your conduct be without covetousness; be content with such things as you have. For He Himself has said, "I will never leave you or forsake you". So we may boldly say, "The Lord is my helper, I will not fear. What can man do to me?"
-- Hebrews 13:5,6

"There is a difference between knowing the path and walking the path"
--Morpheus in "The Matrix"

"It's our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities"- Dumbledore to Harry Potter "Chamber of Secrets"

when will this world get rid of 'race'... It means nothing... Human biengs are evolving in so many ways... Except that one... Yea there is no more slavery in this country (theoretically)... but we still think of ourselves as 'black' and 'white'... until that is erased there will always be this type of BULLSHIT that means NOTHING... Havent we learned anything from history!??! The color of your skin has nothing to do with the content of your heart... Do i like to be called african american?? no... do i like to be called black??? no... i like to be called by my name, and my name alone...

the idea of race was never developed until the 19th century when some white scientists decided to study the differences in physical characteristics between different cultures (ie. phrenology, selective breeding, etc.) I'm sure most of you know of the studies done by a scientist ( I can't remember his name -I'll have to look it up, but if anyone knows, please let me know) that measured peoples skulls and concluded that white people were smarter because they had larger heads. When these studies came out, everyone began thinking in RACIAL terms. Before this, people acknowledged cultural differences. Recognizing cultural differences maintains the humanity of an individual, while racial differences reduces a human to color, hair texture, facial features (objectifying). Since then, racial stratification was adopted in the U.S. as in other countries, abandoning respect for cultural differences. Racial stratification gave way to ideas that some races were sub-human, while others were superior, etc., etc.

The word race must be deleted from our vocabulary. It does not represent who we are as individuals. Black, White, Asian, Latino, or whatever doesn't mean anything at an individual, human level.

intellectually it may mean nothing, but socially it is very influential

just look at how many people come to this post and how many are emotional about it

it does matter in the world that we live in, thus the question and all the debate


==**peace**==

"Words without work is not enough." Sizzla

There is more danger in the word exotic than in a sharpened machete --me

"The logic of divide and rule is still valid today." Capleton

DPP; DomePoem Poets; Vibe Nation; One ppl under the spoken word

why you face a lot of bullshit is because the idea that whiteness is truly beautiful, and everything else is at best an exoticness to be used sexually (Black women, Asian women, Black men, Latino), if you got true love, then most people are just jealous of you too, you wouldn't believe how much bullshit I get being non-white and non-Black dating out of my race.

Why do people think that the concept of "race" has ANYTHING to do with the problems occurring today versus Western culture from which it spawned from? (Metaphorically: Is a gun responsible for murders committed by Sam Berkowitz or is he?)

good analogy...and while doing something about Sam would be the right/best thing to do, taking the gun away from him is going to have to happen before you can detain him (or, at least, would make him "less" dangerous).

I mean, if you take race away from people that for the life of them can't imagine a world without their racial lenses, you don't think that would be a quantum leap (<-misnomer) toward them reanalyzing their western minds?

wouldn't there be something else?

economics? sexuality? fashion sense (ridiculous, but you see my point)?

are you saying that "race" in and of itself is a Western concept/problem or that playing the race card is inherently Western/bad/etc?


L.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"my mama said/it ain't what a lady wears/it's what she knows"~~India Arie

KizzMyBlakAzz: you've made yourself a shell
KizzMyBlakAzz: i know you're soft and gooey on the inside
LHoney17: I know I am....never said I wasn't
LHoney17: but that doesn't mean I get stepped on or that I'm not strong
KizzMyBlakAzz: Gooey
LHoney17: lol
KizzMyBlakAzz: Caramel
KizzMyBlakAzz: Center
LHoney17: lol....well that's a nice way to think of it
KizzMyBlakAzz: with like a hard choclate shell
LHoney17: think I'll put that in a personal ad
KizzMyBlakAzz: You're a Rollo
LHoney17: lmao
KizzMyBlakAzz: lmao

When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love has always won. There have been tyrants and murderers
and for a time they seem invincible but in the end, they always fall -- think of it, ALWAYS. ~~Mahatma Gandhi

that people on these boards focus solely on "race" as a major problem without realizing that Western culture that spawned it, IS THE REAL PROBLEM. Taking a gun away from a killer, is not disabling the killer. A knife, fist, foot, elbow, bat, etc. are all weapons that can be used to kill. You have to disable (eliminate) the killer.

As long as people focus on "race" then in reality the killer (Western/ European worldview) is making the people focus on strategies to ban Saturday night Specials while the killer has a stockade of uzis, AK-47's, MAC-10's, etc (colonialism, imperialism, classicism, universalism, humanism, religion, etc.)that he has been using to kill everyone around him.

PEace
Solarus

"Activism is the practice of using an internal, self-determining source of power to live one's life and/or enact some sort of change. Power is the ability to define reality, while self-determination is to decide or define one's self. Therefore activism, is not simply something done to right some wrong or to fight some cause but rather it is a way of life. Activism is the way of life where one can define self and change anything that may impede or control the reality that one chooses to live."-Solarus

but not very specific to this post

so if interracial love is not the issue

is western/non-western love more the issue

western and nonwestern conceptions of love

taking time to love in the heat of battle?


==**peace**==

"Words without work is not enough." Sizzla

There is more danger in the word exotic than in a sharpened machete --me

"The logic of divide and rule is still valid today." Capleton

DPP; DomePoem Poets; Vibe Nation; One ppl under the spoken word

>but not very specific to this
>post
>

My statement was to a specific comment.

>so if interracial love is not
>the issue
>

It is the issue for this post but not the issue for the problems of the world."RAce" isn't either it is just a symptom of a greater illness.

>is western/non-western love more the issue
>

Those two things are totally different and incompatible.

>
>western and nonwestern conceptions of love
>
>
>taking time to love in the
>heat of battle?
>
>

One can never "love" the enemy. That is suicide (i.e. genocide).

Oh yeah, I don't want to hear any responses from anyone like "Blacks can love whites..." This has NOTHING to do with the compatibility of Western and non-Western worldviews.

Somebody'll still say it though...

Geez.

PEace
Solarice

"Activism is the practice of using an internal, self-determining source of power to live one's life and/or enact some sort of change. Power is the ability to define reality, while self-determination is to decide or define one's self. Therefore activism, is not simply something done to right some wrong or to fight some cause but rather it is a way of life. Activism is the way of life where one can define self and change anything that may impede or control the reality that one chooses to live."-Solarus

>My statement was to a specific comment.

specific, yes. to this post, no.

>It is the issue for this post but not the issue
>for the problems of the world.

right. i was under the impression that here at okayplayer we're solving the problems of the world post by post instead of all at once?

which is an unecessarily rude way of saying you should start a post saying race is not the problem, or bring up an old one

>"RAce" isn't either it is just a symptom of a greater illness.

very true

>>is western/non-western love more the issue
>>
>Those two things are totally different and incompatible.

i don't understand how. we are all animals first and foremost beneath all things. but we have brains that we can use to twist our thoughts into oblivion. love, though, is a universal human function. a human NEED i would say. can't live without love.

love is a basic human function. culture can only mess so deep with it.

of course, we live in a world that's pretty obsessed with love. because of that we call all kindsa things love. and all that extra stuff (which is not love anyway) confuses the hell out of us.

>One can never "love" the enemy. That is suicide (i.e. genocide).

i think the "problem" here is that the line between enemy and friend is not a distinctive one

>like "Blacks can love whites..."
> This has NOTHING to
>do with the compatibility of
>Western and non-Western worldviews.

so blacks=nonwestern and whites=nonwestern? man, that is shortsighted and not very well thought out. even contradicting your earlier self.

you said that western and non-western love are incompatible. how does that not relate to the compatibility of western and nonwestern worldviews?


==**peace**==

"Words without work is not enough." Sizzla

There is more danger in the word exotic than in a sharpened machete --me

"The logic of divide and rule is still valid today." Capleton

DPP; DomePoem Poets; Vibe Nation; One ppl under the spoken word

>
>>like "Blacks can love whites..."
>> This has NOTHING to
>>do with the compatibility of
>>Western and non-Western worldviews.
>
>so blacks=nonwestern and whites=nonwestern? man, that
>is shortsighted and not very
>well thought out. even contradicting
>your earlier self.

I assume u meant to say blacks = non-western and whites = western.

Just to save time: Solarus never said this. "Western" is a culture, not a race. Africans raised in "the West" (America, Europe) are for the most part Western, for example. "Whites" are for all intents and purposes all Western (I personally dont know of any whites who weren't raised into Western culture), although if we were raised under the right circumstances we wouldn't be. I'll be the first to admit that I'm Western, although I am trying to purge many and even most western ideas from my brain.

however, i do not agree with Solarus' total and stark separation of Western and non-Western cultures, Especially with regard to love. ALthough I think that many aspects of Western culture greatly undermine love (particularly individualism and the separation of reason and emotion), i have personally seen "true love" flourish between Westerners (my parents!). i have personally seen two "Western" people become one. Also, we mustn't forget that in many non-Western cultures (and still in many Western cultures as well), such as in many parts of India, for example, marriage and love are forced upon people, particularly women, who have little or no power over whom they are betrothed to. How does this fit into this alleged drastic dichotomy between western and non-western conceptions of love?

Peace

with understanding.

>Just to save time: Solarus never
>said this. "Western" is a
>culture, not a race. Africans
>raised in "the West" (America,
>Europe) are for the most
>part Western, for example. "Whites"
>are for all intents and
>purposes all Western (I personally
>dont know of any whites
>who weren't raised into Western
>culture),

THANK YOU!!!! FINALLY SOMEONE THAT CAN READ!
GEEZ PEOPLE!

Didn't I say:
"Oh yeah, I don't want to hear any responses from anyone like "Blacks can love whites..." This has NOTHING to do with the compatibility of Western and non-Western worldviews."

Therefore black DOESN'T (automatically) equal NON-WESTERN!

>however, i do not agree with
>Solarus' total and stark separation
>of Western and non-Western cultures,
>Especially with regard to love.
>ALthough I think that many
>aspects of Western culture greatly
>undermine love (particularly individualism and
>the separation of reason and
>emotion), i have personally seen
>"true love" flourish between Westerners
>(my parents!). i have personally
>seen two "Western" people become
>one.

There is a great difference in how this love manifest to not only another but the COMMUNITY. The two factors you mentioned (individualism and...) both make that "love" two totally different phenomena. In the West love tends to be equated with "romance" with is not in any way shape or form "love." I said the two types of love are incompatible because they are DIFFERENT in meaning.

>Also, we mustn't forget
>that in many non-Western cultures
>(and still in many Western
>cultures as well), such as
>in many parts of India,
>for example, marriage and love
>are forced upon people, particularly
>women, who have little or
>no power over whom they
>are betrothed to. How does
>this fit into this alleged
>drastic dichotomy between western and
>non-western conceptions of love?

This is a Western misunderstanding on a tried and true practice in many societies. India has in own problems that can historically trace back to "western" entities (India is a patriarchal society but the original civilizations were MATRIARCHAL). For now I'll leave that alone and discussed arranged marriages.

Westerners tend to degrade this practice because of some foolish notions of "freedom" that are lost in the choice. The fact is that in these societies one does not have to pick and choose out of a series of inadequate mates because individuals are RAISED to understand the roles they play in these relationships and society. They understand that these relationships are PERMANENT the only thing they can do IS GROW. If you know that you WILL be with someone for the rest of your life then you will MAKE IT WORK.

Some people do experience this type of commitment in the West but the vast majority... Most Americans don't KNOW who they are married to and find out AFTER MARRIAGE. I shake my head with pity (then laugh) when I hear pitiful statements like "Man, she changed into a whole different person AFTER we got married."
YOU DIDN'T KNOW THE PERSON IN THE FIRST PLACE!! This shows that most of these relationships are built on some type of imaginary "love" (called infatuation and lust) which dies after people get "use" to their mates. The statements that I hear stemming from Western people today are just pitiful and ridiculous: "You not suppose to be with only ONE person for the rest of your life." Why? This attests to the same comment I made earlier about "falling in love." YOu render yourself powerless. Noone is saying you HAVE to be with ONE person but it is entirely likely that you can. Most WEsterners can't do it because they have no discipline and sense of civilization. To make such a pitiful universal statement such as the one stated above is endemic of this childlike culture. Non-western methods of living ARE TRIED, TRUE and TESTED. We are talking about practices that have been used for THOUSANDS OF YEARS and maintained CIVILIZATIONS for the same amount of years. Why are they suddenly seen insufficient and "oppressive?" This coming from a people who are new to the scene AND inexperienced in HEALTHY relationships between men and women. Lest we look back only a hundred (if we go back any farther these relationship become even more pitiful) years to see how restricted women were in their choices of a mate and particularly how powerless and oppressed they were in the relationships.

In modern-day Western society, women's "freedom" and increased "power" greater than ANY non-western woman (or so is said) but how long do marriages last? HOw many single mothers are there? How many people have been married AT least twice?

It's so sad.

PEace
Solarus


"Activism is the practice of using an internal, self-determining source of power to live one's life and/or enact some sort of change. Power is the ability to define reality, while self-determination is to decide or define one's self. Therefore activism, is not simply something done to right some wrong or to fight some cause but rather it is a way of life. Activism is the way of life where one can define self and change anything that may impede or control the reality that one chooses to live."-Solarus

>
>THANK YOU!!!! FINALLY SOMEONE THAT CAN
>READ!
>GEEZ PEOPLE!


It is kind of funny watching how many circular dead-end arguments occur becuase people dont read or make assumptions. People let their gut reactions and emotions get in the way of productive discourse.

>
>>however, i do not agree with
>>Solarus' total and stark separation
>>of Western and non-Western cultures,
>>Especially with regard to love.
>>ALthough I think that many
>>aspects of Western culture greatly
>>undermine love (particularly individualism and
>>the separation of reason and
>>emotion), i have personally seen
>>"true love" flourish between Westerners
>>(my parents!). i have personally
>>seen two "Western" people become
>>one.
>
>There is a great difference in
>how this love manifest to
>not only another but the
>COMMUNITY. The two factors
>you mentioned (individualism and...) both
>make that "love" two totally
>different phenomena. In the
>West love tends to be
>equated with "romance" with is
>not in any way shape
>or form "love." I said
>the two types of love
>are incompatible because they are
>DIFFERENT in meaning.

I don't exactly understand your last sentence here. Although I think non-western and western love are different I do not think they are absolutes. I think there is some overlap. i like what you said about the involvement of the community in love outside of Western society. Before these modern western times, marriages and love were more than a bond between two people, they were also a bond between two entire familes even entire communities.

>
>>Also, we mustn't forget
>>that in many non-Western cultures
>>(and still in many Western
>>cultures as well), such as
>>in many parts of India,
>>for example, marriage and love
>>are forced upon people, particularly
>>women, who have little or
>>no power over whom they
>>are betrothed to. How does
>>this fit into this alleged
>>drastic dichotomy between western and
>>non-western conceptions of love?
>
>This is a Western misunderstanding on
>a tried and true practice
>in many societies. India
>has in own problems that
>can historically trace back to
>"western" entities (India is a
>patriarchal society but the original
>civilizations were MATRIARCHAL). For
>now I'll leave that alone
>and discussed arranged marriages.

I overlooked the role of the Aryan/"Indo-European" invaders in bringing patriarchy and patriarchal marriages to India (they brought the same patriarchy to Greece and basically every other matriarchal society they encountered ). You're right , India is a poor example.
>
>Westerners tend to degrade this practice
>because of some foolish notions
>of "freedom" that are lost
>in the choice.

I wasnt saying that arranged marriages are any worse or better than western style "free" marriages. In fact i agree that the former have a much better success rate (success in terms of staying together, raising kids successfuly, and becoming a stable community 'pillar' for other families). However I suspect that many (by no means all) arranged marriages force people to be together who CAN't work it out, often resulting in oppression of the wife in patriarchal societies. I really will have to do more research on this though, i dont know enough about this specific topic to delve too deeply.

The
>fact is that in these
>societies one does not have
>to pick and choose out
>of a series of inadequate
>mates because individuals are RAISED
>to understand the roles they
>play in these relationships and
>society. They understand that
>these relationships are PERMANENT the
>only thing they can do
>IS GROW. If you know
>that you WILL be with
>someone for the rest of
>your life then you will
>MAKE IT WORK.

Real love always makes it work (eff sounding corny its true). This is why i know my western (although hella left-field) parents are truly in love. BUT they had both been married to someone else before.....interesting. maybe they learned the true meaning after their initial missteps.

>Some people do experience this type
>of commitment in the West
>but the vast majority...

Agreed, Im glad you said "some people." I do think some people can cut through the Western restrictions and love for real. altho "some" in this case is a small minority.

> Most Americans don't KNOW
>who they are married to
>and find out AFTER MARRIAGE.
>I shake my head with
>pity (then laugh) when I
>hear pitiful statements like "Man,
>she changed into a whole
>different person AFTER we got
>married."
>YOU DIDN'T KNOW THE PERSON IN
>THE FIRST PLACE!! This
>shows that most of these
>relationships are built on some
>type of imaginary "love" (called
>infatuation and lust) which dies
>after people get "use" to
>their mates. The statements that
>I hear stemming from Western
>people today are just pitiful
>and ridiculous: "You not suppose
>to be with only ONE
>person for the rest of
>your life." Why?
>This attests to the same
>comment I made earlier about
>"falling in love." YOu
>render yourself powerless. Noone
>is saying you HAVE to
>be with ONE person but
>it is entirely likely that
>you can. Most WEsterners can't
>do it because they have
>no discipline and sense of
>civilization. To make such a
>pitiful universal statement such as
>the one stated above is
>endemic of this childlike culture.
> Non-western methods of living
>ARE TRIED, TRUE and TESTED.
>We are talking about practices
>that have been used for
>THOUSANDS OF YEARS and maintained
>CIVILIZATIONS for the same amount
>of years. Why are
>they suddenly seen insufficient and
>"oppressive?"

See above. i definitely dont think they are insufficient. Perhaps oppressive in some cases, although once again i will have to do some research to back that up.

This coming from
>a people who are new
>to the scene AND inexperienced
>in HEALTHY relationships between men
>and women. Lest we
>look back only a hundred
>(if we go back any
>farther these relationship become even
>more pitiful) years to see
>how restricted women were in
>their choices of a mate
>and particularly how powerless and
>oppressed they were in the
>relationships.
>
>In modern-day Western society, women's "freedom"
>and increased "power" greater than
>ANY non-western woman (or so
>is said)

Individualist power, not collective power. Western women started taking on some of the dysfunctions of western men in the name of equality! (non-western peoples assimilating do the same). I hope that doesnt sound too chauvinist, i didnt mean it that way. But women can be equal without stooping themselves to our level.

but how long
>do marriages last? HOw
>many single mothers are there?
>How many people have been
>married AT least twice?
>
>It's so sad.
>

Agreed.

Peace.

>I shake my head with
>pity (then laugh) when I
>hear pitiful statements like "Man,
>she changed into a whole
>different person AFTER we got
>married."
>YOU DIDN'T KNOW THE PERSON IN
>THE FIRST PLACE!! This
>shows that most of these
>relationships are built on some
>type of imaginary "love" (called
>infatuation and lust) which dies
>after people get "use" to
>their mates. The statements that
>I hear stemming from Western
>people today are just pitiful
>and ridiculous: "You not suppose
>to be with only ONE
>person for the rest of
>your life." Why?
>This attests to the same
>comment I made earlier about
>"falling in love." YOu
>render yourself powerless. Noone
>is saying you HAVE to
>be with ONE person but
>it is entirely likely that
>you can.

true, true, true...

just had to give props on that one

L.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"my mama said/a lady ain't what she wears/but what she knows"~~India Arie

KizzMyBlakAzz: you've made yourself a shell
KizzMyBlakAzz: i know you're soft and gooey on the inside
LHoney17: I know I am....never said I wasn't
LHoney17: but that doesn't mean I get stepped on or that I'm not strong
KizzMyBlakAzz: Gooey
LHoney17: lol
KizzMyBlakAzz: Caramel
KizzMyBlakAzz: Center
LHoney17: lol....well that's a nice way to think of it
KizzMyBlakAzz: with like a hard choclate shell
LHoney17: think I'll put that in a personal ad
KizzMyBlakAzz: You're a Rollo
LHoney17: lmao
KizzMyBlakAzz: lmao

"Ignorance: The Verbal Airborne Disease" (c) my friend Ty

"Quentin's on his way/Quinton's on his way/Quentin's on his way/with another J/and it's ok!!/(we're gonna get high!!)" ~~Pharcyde

Lest we look back only a hundred (if we go back any farther these relationship become even more pitiful) years to see how restricted women were in their choices of a mate and particularly how powerless and oppressed they were in the relationships.

In modern-day Western society, women's "freedom" and increased "power" greater than ANY non-western woman (or so is said) but how long do marriages last? HOw many single mothers are there? How many people have been married AT least twice?

Who is to say that marriage is the way to go? Women have historically put up with mass amounts of shit to make that system work.
Who is to say that Western culture is not in some period of transition--where new configurations may evolve??
Watched a documentary on a tribe from South America where they had one primary partner, but open sexual relationships with a variety of different partners was not only common, but encouraged. A part of their rituals and customs--one where women exerted much of the power.
So much of this discussion is focused on history--what about the future??? And what about our ability to shape it?

Man-- I have so many cool ideas of what I would like to see.

Shim



Shimmy

HOtep

>
>which is an unecessarily rude way
>of saying you should start
>a post saying race is
>not the problem, or bring
>up an old one
>

How was I saying that? And how was that rude?



>>Those two things are totally different and incompatible.
>
>i don't understand how. we are
>all animals first and foremost
>beneath all things. but we
>have brains that we can
>use to twist our thoughts
>into oblivion. love, though, is
>a universal human function. a
>human NEED i would say.
>can't live without love.

"universal human function," This is what I'm talking about. Universalism doesn't work. It is the typical tool of the Westerner to map its own beliefs onto others with no regard. Love may be an experience felt by all BUT it is not DEFINED and therefore MANIFESTED in the same way by all thus totally DIFFERENT and incompatible.

>
>love is a basic human function.
>culture can only mess so
>deep with it.
>
No, no. CULTURE DEFINES IT.


>>One can never "love" the enemy. That is suicide (i.e. genocide).
>
>i think the "problem" here is
>that the line between enemy
>and friend is not a
>distinctive one

Those who succumb to a Western/European conceptual system are culturally designed to control/destroy those of a non-Western conceptual system. HIstory shows this, Modern-day proves it.

>
>>like "Blacks can love whites..."
>> This has NOTHING to
>>do with the compatibility of
>>Western and non-Western worldviews.
>
>so blacks=nonwestern and whites=nonwestern? man, that
>is shortsighted and not very
>well thought out. even contradicting
>your earlier self.
>
See "Finally someone who can read"

>you said that western and non-western
>love are incompatible. how does
>that not relate to the
>compatibility of western and nonwestern
>worldviews?
>
They are incompatible, for reasons given above.


PEace
Solarus

"Activism is the practice of using an internal, self-determining source of power to live one's life and/or enact some sort of change. Power is the ability to define reality, while self-determination is to decide or define one's self. Therefore activism, is not simply something done to right some wrong or to fight some cause but rather it is a way of life. Activism is the way of life where one can define self and change anything that may impede or control the reality that one chooses to live."-Solarus

you've had me deep in thought all morning, so thanks for that

mostly i think i started out thinking about the differences between commitment and connection and the way i couldn't define love if i tried even though i can point it out when i see it in my own life and experiences.

and then i started thinking about divorce and more about commitment.

and the way that individual based society is contrary to and destructive to human nature. about the loneliness and self-centeredness and spoiledness that are eating away at the western world in the form of sacrifices made for material success. competitiveness. loneliness. inability to communicate with others. values that don't take into account human nature. hatred.

nonwestern group hatred. ancient hatreds.

staying together for the kids.

anyway, as you can see, i'm still really all over the place. but i felt the need to check in and i'll probably check in later on, hopefully a bit more coherently.

but for me at least, it's these crazy tailspins that really lead me to deeper understandings of the world around me. so, for once, an okayplayer was not preaching to the choir, as they say.

not sure where i'll end up, or even if i'm thinkin in the same direction as you, but i'm thinkin.


==**peace**==

"Words without work is not enough." Sizzla

There is more danger in the word exotic than in a sharpened machete --me

"The logic of divide and rule is still valid today." Capleton

DPP; DomePoem Poets; Vibe Nation; One ppl under the spoken word

>and the way that individual based
>society is contrary to and
>destructive to human nature. about
>the loneliness and self-centeredness and
>spoiledness that are eating away
>at the western world in
>the form of sacrifices made
>for material success. competitiveness. loneliness.
>inability to communicate with others.
>values that don't take into
>account human nature. hatred.

interesting...I've had that same notion but never put it together in that particular way. Hm.

L.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"my mama said/a lady ain't what she wears/but what she knows"~~India Arie

KizzMyBlakAzz: you've made yourself a shell
KizzMyBlakAzz: i know you're soft and gooey on the inside
LHoney17: I know I am....never said I wasn't
LHoney17: but that doesn't mean I get stepped on or that I'm not strong
KizzMyBlakAzz: Gooey
LHoney17: lol
KizzMyBlakAzz: Caramel
KizzMyBlakAzz: Center
LHoney17: lol....well that's a nice way to think of it
KizzMyBlakAzz: with like a hard choclate shell
LHoney17: think I'll put that in a personal ad
KizzMyBlakAzz: You're a Rollo
LHoney17: lmao
KizzMyBlakAzz: lmao

"Ignorance: The Verbal Airborne Disease" (c) my friend Ty

"Quentin's on his way/Quinton's on his way/Quentin's on his way/with another J/and it's ok!!/(we're gonna get high!!)" ~~Pharcyde

>>>is western/non-western love more the issue
>>>
>>Those two things are totally different and incompatible.
>
>i don't understand how. we are
>all animals first and foremost
>beneath all things. but we
>have brains that we can
>use to twist our thoughts
>into oblivion. love, though, is
>a universal human function. a
>human NEED i would say.
>can't live without love.
>
>love is a basic human function.
>culture can only mess so
>deep with it.
>
>of course, we live in a
>world that's pretty obsessed with
>love. because of that we
>call all kindsa things love.
>and all that extra stuff
>(which is not love anyway)
>confuses the hell out of
>us.

I gotta agree with Solarus, "love" in the romantic sense was contrived during the Shakesperian period. Not every culture needs "love" in the sense that westerners (particularly the US), look at arranged hindu marriages. Their partners are chosen by parents, and in a sense they "love" each other, but not in a western sense. An Indian woman cannot be compatible with a western man unless he adapts to the western state of mind. Part of the problem with the romanticized image of love in our society is that it is almost an unattainable standard, you have to be completely compatible to this person in every sense from the get-go, when in reality, you live and learn and adapt to that person and they adapt to you, much like arranged marriages work. You've never met that person before the wedding date and you learn to live with them and raise a family. Notice how arranged marriages have a much lower divorce rate? I'm not suggesting that arranged marriages should be a standard for us, but eastern and western love is so opposite, that it wouldn't be compatible.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"my mama said/a lady ain't what she wears/but what she knows"~~India Arie

KizzMyBlakAzz: you've made yourself a shell
KizzMyBlakAzz: i know you're soft and gooey on the inside
LHoney17: I know I am....never said I wasn't
LHoney17: but that doesn't mean I get stepped on or that I'm not strong
KizzMyBlakAzz: Gooey
LHoney17: lol
KizzMyBlakAzz: Caramel
KizzMyBlakAzz: Center
LHoney17: lol....well that's a nice way to think of it
KizzMyBlakAzz: with like a hard choclate shell
LHoney17: think I'll put that in a personal ad
KizzMyBlakAzz: You're a Rollo
LHoney17: lmao
KizzMyBlakAzz: lmao

"Ignorance: The Verbal Airborne Disease" (c) my friend Ty

"Quentin's on his way/Quinton's on his way/Quentin's on his way/with another J/and it's ok!!/(we're gonna get high!!)" ~~Pharcyde