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Topic subjectThe Treatment of Women in America
Topic URLhttp://board.okayplayer.com/okp.php?az=show_topic&forum=22&topic_id=17453
17453, The Treatment of Women in America
Posted by abduhu, Thu Mar-08-01 08:41 AM
bismillah

i thought i would post these stats and article as a subtle reminder of women's treatment here in America, since a lot of people seem adamant about posting views about women are treated in other countries and parts of the world (afghanistan, middle east, etc..).

please recognize and realize the faults of your own nation b4 pointing fingers somewhere else. b/c you know what "they" say about pointing fingers,......you got 3 pointing right back at you!

and what i posted aint even a taste of what really goes on here!
and if you want to know about the african-american community's stats,.....well there are none.
........but im sure you could go to "general discussion" and get a taste of how "the brothers" treat "the sisters".

so much for self-righteousness, huh?!?

and by the way, for those who believe that America is "the model country" for the world over, this post alone will squash and dead that!!!

not to mention the 12+ incidents that have occured since monday's shooting in cali!

model my behind!!!!!!!!!!!!



Statistics About Domestic Abuse

DID YOU KNOW THAT:


Approximately 95% of the victims of domestic violence are women.
(Department of Justice figures)
Every 9 seconds in the United States a woman is assaulted and beaten.
4,000,000 women a year are assaulted by their partners.
In the United States, a woman is more likely to be assaulted, injured, raped, or killed by a male partner than by any other type of assailant.
Every day, 4 women are murdered by boyfriends or husbands.
Prison terms for killing husbands are twice as long as for killing wives.
93% of women who killed their mates had been battered by them. 67% killed them to protect themselves and their children at the moment of murder.
25% of all crime is wife assault.
70% of men who batter their partners either sexually or physically abuse their children.
Domestic violence is the number one cause of emergency room visits by women.
73% of the battered women seeking emergency medical services have already separated from the abuser.
Women are most likely to be killed when attempting to leave the abuser. In fact, they're at a 75% higher risk than those who stay.
The number-one cause of women's injuries is abuse at home. This abuse happens more often than car accidents, mugging, and rape combined.
Up to 37% of all women experience battering. This is an estimated 566,000 women in Minnesota alone.
Battering often occurs during pregnancy. One study found that 37% of pregnant women, across all class, race, and educational lines, were physically abused during pregnancy.
60% of all battered women are beaten while they are pregnant.
34% of the female homicide victims over age 15 are killed by their husbands, ex-husbands, or boyfriends.
2/3 of all marriages will experience domestic violence at least once.
Weapons are used in 30% of domestic violence incidents.
Approximately 1,155,600 adult American women have been victims of one or more forcible rapes by their husbands.
Over 90% of murder-suicides involving couples are perpetrated by the man. 19-26% of male spouse-murderers committed suicide.
When only spouse abuse was considered, divorced or separated men committed 79% of the assaults and husbands committed 21%.
Abusive husbands and lovers harass 74% of employed battered women at work, either in person or over the telephone, causing 20% to lose their jobs.
Physical violence in dating relationships ranges from 20-35%.
It is estimated that between 20% to 52% of high school and college age dating couples have engaged in physical abuse.
More than 50% of child abductions result from domestic violence.
Injuries that battered women receive are at least as serious as injuries suffered in 90% of violent felony crimes.
In 1991, only 17 states kept data on reported domestic violence offenses. These reports were limited to murder, rape, robbery, and serious bodily injury.
More than half of battered women stay with their batterer because they do not feel that they can support themselves and their children alone.
In homes where domestic violence occurs, children are abused at a rate 1,500% higher than the national average.
Up to 64% of hospitalized female psychiatric patients have histories of being physically abused as adults.
50% of the homeless women and children in the U.S. are fleeing abuse.
The amount spent to shelter animals is three times the amount spent to provide emergency shelter to women from domestic abuse situations.
Family violence kills as many women every 5 years as the total number of Americans who died in the Vietnam War.



RAPE STATISTICS
(most of these statistics are from an April 23, 1992 report from the National Victim Center)

 In the United States, 1.3 women are raped every minute. That results in 78 rapes each hour, 1872 rapes each day, 56160 rapes each month and 683,280 rapes each year.
 The United States has the world's highest rape rate of the countries that publish such statistics---4 times higher than Germany, 13 times higher than England, and 20 times higher than Japan.
 1 out of every 3 American women will be sexually assaulted in her lifetime.
 1 in 7 women will be raped by her husband.
 61% of all rape cases are victims less than 18 years old. 22% are between the ages of 18 and 24.
 78% of rape victims know the attacker.
 In a survey of college women, 38% reported sexual victimizations which met the legal definition of a rape or attempted rape, yet only 1 out of every 25 reported their assault to the police.
 1 in 4 college women have either been raped or suffered attempted rape.
 In a study of college students, 35% of men indicated some likelihood that they would commit a violent rape of a woman who had fended off an advance if they were assured of getting away with it.
 1 in 12 male students surveyed had committed acts that met the legal definition of rape. Furthermore, 84% of the men who had committed such acts said what they had done was definitely not rape.
 75% of male students and 55% of female students involved in acquaintance rape had been drinking or using drugs.
 Rape has a devastating impact on the mental health of victims. 31% of all victims develop Rape-Related Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (RR-PTSD) sometime in their lifetimes. Based on U.S. Census reports on the number of women in the United States, 1.3 million women currently have RR-PTSD, 3.8 million women have previously had RR-PTSD and roughly 211,000 women will develop RR-PTSD each year.
 When compared with nonvictims, rape victims have been found to be 8.7 times more likely to attempt suicide.
 Only 16% of rapes are ever reported to the police. In a survey of victims who did not report rape or attempted rape to the police, the following was found as to why no report was made: 43% thought nothing could be done, 27% felt it was a private matter, 12% were afraid of police response, and 12% felt it was not important enough.




City, National Rape Statistics Highly Suspect Run Date: 01/08/01 By Mark Fazlollah
WEnews correspondent Growing evidence indicates that the problem of police departments dismissing and underreporting rapes is widespread. The reasons for the numbers game may range from a desire for the department to appear successful to the belief that women often lie.


PHILADELPHIA (WOMENSENEWS)--Jesine Williams, 12, is a remarkable child.
The tiny seventh grader told state prosecutors how the first Philadelphia police officer who responded to her January 1996 rape had refused to believe that any crime was committed. She told them how the initial investigator from Philadelphia's sex crimes unit also botched the case.
For nearly five years, Jesine had again and again insisted that she knew the name of the rapist--and last fall a DNA test proved that she was right. In December, a Philadelphia jury convicted Jasper Washington, the man Jesine first identified as her rapist in 1996. For four years, police did not bother to interview him.
Jesine, whose family allowed her to be identified by her middle name, had to do battle in order to jail her rapist.
Her fight is vivid evidence of a broken system in Philadelphia and perhaps in other cities where police ignore and dismiss rape complaints, fail to report rapes, miscategorize and disguise them and manipulate statistics in order to simplify their work or bolster their departments' or their cities' images. Often, police believe that alleged victims are lying and categorize reports as "unfounded."
And all of these questionable statistics are fed to the FBI, which each year receives crime data from 16,000 police departments. But the bureau does little to monitor the accuracy of the reporting.
Women's groups are not surprised.
"We've been hoodwinked for 18 years," said Carol E. Tracy, executive director of the Women's Law Project in Philadelphia. But she gave the police credit for admitting past errors. "Admitting the truth about the scandalous record in the face of public scrutiny took real courage."
Philadelphia Allows Women's Groups to Check 'False' Rape Claims
Responding to public pressure, Philadelphia police in early 2000 began to allow local women's groups, including the Law Project, to monitor the rape squad. Each time a complaint was deemed to be false, the women's groups were able to check to ensure that a proper investigation had been completed. No other police department is believed to have been so open.
After Jesine's case was spotlighted in the Philadelphia Inquirer, police began acknowledging problems in the rape squad. Philadelphia police now concede that during the past five years, more than 700 rape cases were botched by the department's underfunded and poorly trained sex crimes unit. Jasper Washington, a 285-pound auto mechanic, and scores of other men have been arrested on rape charges in mishandled cases that were reopened because of Inquirer articles.
Philadelphia Police Deceptions May Be Common Elsewhere
The reporting by the Inquirer was unique, but many of Philadelphia's problems are not.
New FBI and state crime data for 1999 and the first half of 2000 indicate that many major police departments distort the statistics in a variety of ways that make it impossible to tell how many rapes occur, whether police are investigating rape complaints seriously or how frequently the alleged victims lie.
Some police departments code rape complaints in ways that indicated they were little more than a conversation between a police officer and a citizen.
Philadelphia police initially labeled Jesine's rape as a "2701," a police code for a service call, not a crime. The first officer on the scene insisted that Jesine's case was only an incident involving a lost child. Philadelphia's 2701 code, also known as "investigation of person," was used for all 700 rapes that have been reinvestigated by police. Some of those cases, including Jesine's, date back five years.
The 2701 code is no longer used to hide rapes in Philadelphia. But that type of coding is used in other cities.
Tough Cases Sometimes Masked as 'Information Only'
In Phoenix, the rape squad uses what it calls an "information only report" for tough cases, the ones detectives can't sort out. A former Phoenix sex crimes supervisor said in an interview that about a third of his city's sexual assault complaints were classified as "information only." He acknowledged that some of those cases might include cases of real rape, such as those of women who were victims of date-rape drug attacks but couldn't tell the police any of the details of the assaults.
Staffing shortages are another reason for under-reporting and non-reporting.
In Phoenix, eight detectives were assigned to the sex crimes unit in the 1980s, although the population has increased by more than 60 percent since. Still, there are still only eight detectives in the squad.
In Philadelphia, until December 1999, there were never more than nine detectives in the sex crimes unit. Most rape cases were handled by lower-paid patrol officers without the same training in investigations as detectives.
The problems also persist because there is little monitoring of crime reporting. The FBI does not undertake comparative studies of reporting in different cities, allowing some police departments to seriously abuse some loopholes in the FBI's reporting rules.
St. Paul, Minn., claimed throughout the 1990s that it was solving 90 to 100 percent of its rape cases. But year after year, the city's arrest rate for rape was far below the national average. The FBI never questioned those figures.
That was because of a loophole in the FBI's reporting rules, which permits police to "clear," or solve, cases without arresting suspects.
FBI Says It Cannot Monitor Accuracy of Police Statistics
Responding to questions about reporting problems and lack of review, an FBI spokeswoman said that the agency had never asked any police department to clarify why it might have a high rate of "cleared" rapes without arrests. The FBI repeatedly states that it depends on state agencies to ensure that reporting is accurate. State agencies, which receive data from individual police departments and forward it to the FBI, have said they depend on police departments to report and make sure statistics are accurate.
In 1999, St. Paul police said they "cleared" 108 percent of the city's rapes: 200 rapes and 215 clearances. Yet, police arrested only 47 suspects for rape. For the first half of 2000, St. Paul said there were 107 rapes and 107 cleared cases.
At a November conference sponsored by the U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics, a Philadelphia Inquirer reporter presented details on the mishandling of rapes in Philadelphia and also cited St. Paul's unusual reporting pattern.
Once held up to public scrutiny, St. Paul police quickly acknowledged that in 1999 alone, the rape squad had wrongly classified about 100 rapes as being solved by "exceptional" means. That policy of misreporting, the department said, had been in practice for "as long as anyone can remember." By declaring the cases "cleared" without making arrests, it took the pressure off police to make more arrests in rape cases. Dozens of cases have since been reopened. (See "Police May Ignore Rape Complaints to Boost Image," Women's Enews, June 15, 2000.)
St. Paul is just one example of departments that report high rates of solving rapes but low rates of arrests. That misreporting can seriously affect the quality of police investigations.
Oklahoma City has consistently reported clearance rates higher than 75 percent but low rates of rape arrest. Nationally, only half of all rape cases are cleared, and there is about one arrest for every three rapes.
Oklahoma City reports one arrest for every seven rapes.
Problems Also Caused by Lack of Staff, Poor Training
Capt. Pat Byrne, who oversees the Oklahoma City police rape squad, said in an interview that the unit suffered from under-staffing, insufficient training and low motivation. Byrne said the squad has been increased to 15 detectives. Two years ago, there were only eight.
"We knew there was a problem and they're working toward fixing it," Byrne said about his department's low arrest rate, a problem that previously had not been made public.
San Antonio claimed to have solved 64 percent of its rapes in 1999, but it made only one arrest for every five rapes. After years of having a low rate of arrests for rape, San Antonio reported a spectacular 18 percent drop in rapes in 1999. That was followed by a 37 percent drop in rapes in the first half of 2000.
Many other factors can account for low numbers of reported rapes.
Some cities really are much safer than others. But some police departments simply declare that large numbers of rape complaints are lies.
Nationally, police departments say less than 10 percent of all rape reports are false, or "unfounded." In 1998, Philadelphia reported that 18 percent of all rape reports were "unfounded." After the Inquirer reported that Philadelphia's rate was high, the police commissioner began reviewing "unfounded" rape reports. In 1999, Philadelphia's "unfounded" rate dropped to 10 percent. In 2000, the city's "unfounded" rate was down to 7 percent.
Some Departments Have Unusually High Percentage of False Rape Reports
Some departments, however, still report high rates of "unfounded" rapes. Milwaukee has repeatedly reported that more than 40 percent of rape complaints were "unfounded." In Virginia Beach, Va., the rate is 35 percent. In all likelihood, however, Milwaukee and Virginia Beach women probably don't lie about rape any more than women in other cities.
At the same time, extraordinarily low rates of "unfounded" rapes can be problematic.
Houston labels only one-half of one percent of all rape reports as "unfounded." But if Houston police don't think a rape complaint is really a crime, they don't need to write up a formal police report. Houston says cases that fall into that category need not be included in FBI statistics. There is no need to declare them to be unfounded. It's just an information report, similar to the 2701.
Rape complaints that are not coded as crimes are never reported to the FBI. Thus, FBI statistics on rape must always be analyzed with a critical eye and reporting compared from one city to another.
Philadelphia Police Commissioner John F. Timoney carefully watches the statistics of his own department and of others nationwide. He previously served as deputy commissioner of the New York Police Department.
Timoney noticed that statistics for the first half of 2000 showed that Philadelphia reported more than three times more rapes per capita than New York. When New York's figures were analyzed on a borough-by-borough basis, the contrast was even more dramatic.
At a Philadelphia City Council hearing in December on the problems of the police rape squad, Timoney scoffed at New York's statistics. Timoney said Manhattan, with the same population as Philadelphia, was reporting only a fourth as many rapes.
"It's got all sorts of clubs going on. Six to eight million people come in on a daily basis, restaurants, night clubs, 33 million tourists a year come into" Manhattan, Timoney said. "How many rapes do you think will be reported in Manhattan this year, given all the activity that's going on there--date rape activity and all of that? About 250."
Timoney gave reporters this tid-bit about his old department: It didn't use 2701 or an "information only" code, but it did use a code known as "information-aided," or commonly called "aided." All types of ambiguous cases were shelved there. The "aided" category, he said, didn't mean that friendly New York street cops had helped some tourists with information or aid. He said it included, among other things, ambiguous sexual assault complaints.
In 1999, New York reported a 17-percent decline in rapes, the biggest drop in recent memory. Then in the first half of 2000, it dropped another four percent. The New York Police Department insists that its rape statistics are correct. But its statistics do not mention anything about "aided" cases.
Mark Fazlollah is an award-winning investigative reporter for the Philadelphia Inquirer.


17454, RE: The Treatment of Women in America
Posted by Nettrice, Thu Mar-08-01 09:35 AM
Thanks for the stats. It seems to me that many people (male and female) are unwilling to really address this issue.

Domestic abuse really rings a chord with me. My father physically and verbally abused most of the women he was involved with, including my half-sisters and my sister. He never hit me and I am just learning why as an adult.

I am sure many people have domestic abuse stories about themselves, their loved ones or acquaintances. I have had to personally address this issue, as a woman who loves her father and her sisters. I am the only female in my family who sought therapy. I was always the observer of the abuse but it still affected me profound ways. I was a fearless girl, a risk taker, independent and confrontational. Recently, I talked to my father about his abuse. It was deep.

How many people understand that the society we live in conditions women to submit to men? Assertive, goal-oriented, self-sufficient women are seen as threats or undesirable. Even if these type of women are heterosexual they are believed to be men-haters or lesbian. On the other hand, women who are passive, obedient, timid, dependent, and passive women are desirable, yet, these are often the women who are mistreated.

My father never physically abused me because he knew I would fight back, even if it meant my life or his life. His verbal abuse had no effect because I did not take it personally. Fortunately, I had 17 years of practice with him so I was able to effectively deal with the rest of the world.

"Know thyself"

"Let your conduct be without covetousness; be content with such things as you have. For He Himself has said, "I will never leave you or forsake you". So we may boldly say, "The Lord is my helper, I will not fear. What can man do to me?"
-- Hebrews 13:5,6

"There is a difference between knowing the path and walking the path"
--Morpheus in "The Matrix"

"It's our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities"- Dumbledore to Harry Potter "Chamber of Secrets"
17455, thanks for this
Posted by guerilla_love, Thu Mar-08-01 10:03 AM
one part that reminded me of an old crusade i haven't thought about in a while:

 1 in 12 male students surveyed had committed acts that met the legal definition of rape. Furthermore, 84% of the men who had committed such acts said what they had done was definitely not rape.

there was an organization called "men unlearning rape" in madison wisconsin that had some great ideas, stepping out of the good man bad man hypersimplistic definition to say that men should look for these qualities in them in order to truly understand the danger of the situations

other things i was reminded of:
1- working for the sexual assault domestic violence center in baltimore and doing outreach presentations- that was deep- discussing such personal things with women in rehab centers, middle- schoolers, ... some comments about how only weak women get abused.....

2- a somalian friend of mine saw an open ms. magazine in my apt. talking about the state of women in somalia. he blew up and said at least in somalia men don't beat women

3-blood, emotions, countless related situations and statistics


==**peace**==

"Words without work is not enough." Sizzla

There is more danger in the word exotic than in a sharpened machete --me

"The logic of divide and rule is still valid today." Capleton

DPP; DomePoem Poets; Vibe Nation; One ppl under the spoken word
17456, appreciative, but
Posted by LexM, Thu Mar-08-01 10:39 AM
what's with the attitude?

other countries are fucked up.

our country is fucked up.

and?

do u always have to be so defensive? don't take it personally.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"my mama said/a lady ain't what she wears/but what she knows"~~India Arie

KizzMyBlakAzz: you've made yourself a shell
KizzMyBlakAzz: i know you're soft and gooey on the inside
LHoney17: I know I am....never said I wasn't
LHoney17: but that doesn't mean I get stepped on or that I'm not strong
KizzMyBlakAzz: Gooey
LHoney17: lol
KizzMyBlakAzz: Caramel
KizzMyBlakAzz: Center
LHoney17: lol....well that's a nice way to think of it
KizzMyBlakAzz: with like a hard choclate shell
LHoney17: think I'll put that in a personal ad
KizzMyBlakAzz: You're a Rollo
LHoney17: lmao
KizzMyBlakAzz: lmao

"Ignorance: The Verbal Airborne Disease" (c) my friend Ty

"Quentin's on his way/Quinton's on his way/Quentin's on his way/with another J/and it's ok!!/(we're gonna get high!!)" ~~Pharcyde
17457, RE: appreciative, but
Posted by abduhu, Thu Mar-08-01 11:12 AM
>what's with the attitude?
>
>other countries are fucked up.
>
>our country is fucked up.
>
>and?
>
>do u always have to be
>so defensive?

i'm sorry, but i have to be. its a religious obligation of mine to be defensive of my brothers. and besides, nobody else is.

>don't take it
>personally.

wouldnt you take it personally if someone was doggin a member of your family?

Allah says in his Glorious Qur'an:
10. The Believers are but a SINGLE BROTHERHOOD: So make peace and reconciliation between your two (contending) brothers; and fear Allah, that ye may receive Mercy.

i posted the post so the "pointers"would stop and think for a min., instead of just talkin out the side of they neck.

sure, the media is helpful in helping us all to attain info about a particular subject, but does it help us understand?

and as im sure you are aware of, this post stemmed from the "buddhas in afghanistan" post, where everyone started straying off the path of the original subject, and just started raving and ranting about how the taliban is treating women, totally irrelevant to the subject. therefore, i was not neccessary to point it out. but since indivs. insisted, i insisted.

all im am trying to say in a nutshell is,....
we all should get the facts straight, b4 we speak.

i dont make comments about stuff-positive or negative-b/c i dont really know what to say.

i could just put something outthere, but for the ones w/ the knowledge, i would look ignorant, and would probably wind up having to retract what i said.

p.s.: im glad yall appreciated it. it wasnt just a snap back at the masses, it was something real. the prob. here is real, and will continue to be as long as we have posts like "b... better have my money", "where is the craziest place you have ever....",
"how to roll a blunt",..etc..

freedom of speech is wonderful, but at whose expense?
freedom of speech is great, but there is some speech that should never be allowed to be freed from one's mouth!

b easy

subhanakallahumma wabihamdika ashhadu anla ilaha illa anta astaghfiruka waatuubu ilaika






17458, RE: appreciative, but
Posted by jkwhut, Thu Mar-08-01 12:11 PM
thats all well and good. Let's ask a thousand American women whether they would rather live in America or Afghanistan.
My point being, at least our system allows for change
17459, why afghanistan?
Posted by guerilla_love, Thu Mar-08-01 12:22 PM
i suspect afghanistan is one of the worst human rights abusers of females on the planet today-

the point is that although the us plays perfect moral cop to the world all the time, the us needs to look in the mirror. before we start screaming about women's rights in other countries (often more matriarchal cultures), we should acknowledge them within our own country. before we go screaming about election corruptions in developing countries and sending watchers down, we should make sure our own sysem works--


==**peace**==

"Words without work is not enough." Sizzla

There is more danger in the word exotic than in a sharpened machete --me

"The logic of divide and rule is still valid today." Capleton

DPP; DomePoem Poets; Vibe Nation; One ppl under the spoken word
17460, Rights or protection?
Posted by jkwhut, Thu Mar-08-01 12:28 PM
I don't think the problem is that American women don't have rights. I think the problem is that those rights are so often brought into question. So, unlike my sentiment on my issues, my feeling is that our justice system(though flawed) may be a better standard-bearer than you give it credit for. It's the men in this country, unfortunately, that are the problem. And a lot of them are punished, clearly reflected by the number of arrests logged to produce the report that started this thread.


17461, the point is that
Posted by guerilla_love, Thu Mar-08-01 01:03 PM
it's a huge problem, and i think the major thrust of this thread is that it's not very much under control. why is it not under control? because of

a.) misunderstandings and value judgements of abuse victims
b.) a social system that does not respect female sexuality or even femaleness
c.) a people educated about sex through media images that mostly feed off of rape scenarios and dirty/sex-guilt
d.) a sense of "she must've asked for it" or "she was fighting back, so...."
e.) a problem that is very personal in nature
f.) a problem that is so common that people don't react so strongly when being exposed to it
g.) a law enforcement system that does not like to get involved in these situations because of their persnal natura and often blames the woman
h.) a law enforcement system that does not adequately protect women
i.) underfunded and underorganized nonprofits that try to pick up the slack without substantial resources
j.) a judicial system that is often biased against the woman
k.) spousal immunity
l.) a legislative system that has not put in substantial enough laws without so many loopholes to address the problems
m.) a legislative system that supports very few womens' rights and is rapidly growing more conservative and allowing women less dignity and respect
n.) states where a girl who was impregnanted by her father cannot get an abortion without parental approval and walking through angry picket lines screaming ugly things at her and holding signs
o.) a social system that blames women first
p.) a medical system that does not adequately provide for women and children in need
q.) an inadequate shelter system for women and children
r.) images as the woman as the seductress and the man as a drooling bag of hormones without responsibility for his actions
s.) inadeuqate birth control and std protection- a woman cannot protect herself without proper warning and men don't like their protective options
t.) the widely touted joy of popping a virgin
u.) the eagerness of men to put themselves on the side of safe and good men, when many of these problems saturate communities much deeper
v.) a prison system that allows for women to be sexually abused by prison staff
w.) it's easier for a woman to be raped than a man
x.) oftentimes raped women are seen as seductresses
y.) women who've given birth are no longer valued as being sexy
z.) as women gain more professional power they lose cosmetic power- the gains aren't as simple as it may seem



==**peace**==

"Words without work is not enough." Sizzla

There is more danger in the word exotic than in a sharpened machete --me

"The logic of divide and rule is still valid today." Capleton

DPP; DomePoem Poets; Vibe Nation; One ppl under the spoken word
17462, RE: Top Human Rights Abusers
Posted by abduhu, Fri Mar-09-01 06:10 AM
>i suspect afghanistan is one of
>the worst human rights abusers
>of females on the planet
>today-

Bismillah

the stats show clearly where not only "the worst human rights abusers of females on the planet" are, but there are stats that have not been posted about child abuse, death sentences, racism, discrimination, religious rights violations, school shootings, job shootings, email death threats, (ALL of which are "Human Rights Abuse and Violations" etc....that clearly put the United States of America at the top of the list.

and i am positive that any right minded, truthful person will agree to when he/she actually thinks about it.

everyday, the u.s. shows the world its true face.
12+ threats, shootings, etc,..at schools all around the country, as of wednesday. no telling what the number has jumped to!

and Allah knows Best.
17463, how much do you know
Posted by guerilla_love, Fri Mar-09-01 06:48 AM
about women's rights in afghanistan today?


==**peace**==

"Words without work is not enough." Sizzla

There is more danger in the word exotic than in a sharpened machete --me

"The logic of divide and rule is still valid today." Capleton

DPP; DomePoem Poets; Vibe Nation; One ppl under the spoken word
17464, RE: how much do you know
Posted by abduhu, Fri Mar-09-01 06:51 AM
bismillah

exactly what rights are you talking about?
then i can go from there.


17465, you could start with
Posted by guerilla_love, Fri Mar-09-01 06:56 AM
the right to leave your house without the presence of a man and continue from there toward medical treatment and gathering food for meals-

many women who do not have a man in the house are starving or die because they cannot get to medical treatment.

women are not protected nor respected.


==**peace**==

"Words without work is not enough." Sizzla

There is more danger in the word exotic than in a sharpened machete --me

"The logic of divide and rule is still valid today." Capleton

DPP; DomePoem Poets; Vibe Nation; One ppl under the spoken word
17466, RE: you could start with
Posted by abduhu, Fri Mar-09-01 07:08 AM
>the right to leave your house
>without the presence of a
>man and continue from there
>toward medical treatment and gathering
>food for meals-
>
>many women who do not have
>a man in the house
>are starving or die because
>they cannot get to medical
>treatment.
>
>women are not protected nor respected.

bismillah

and one more question, where did you get this info from? how reliable was the source?

ps: im not avoiding the ?, i just need to know what to respond to.



17467, where i got my info from
Posted by guerilla_love, Fri Mar-09-01 07:16 AM
one of my close friends was born in afghanistan. some of her family is still in afghanistan. what i am talking about are stories that she's told me about experiences of her family members-

either she's about to post more info or i will post it for her in a minute--


==**peace**==

"Words without work is not enough." Sizzla

There is more danger in the word exotic than in a sharpened machete --me

"The logic of divide and rule is still valid today." Capleton

DPP; DomePoem Poets; Vibe Nation; One ppl under the spoken word
17468, see #19 for details
Posted by guerilla_love, Fri Mar-09-01 07:36 AM
==**peace**==

"Words without work is not enough." Sizzla

There is more danger in the word exotic than in a sharpened machete --me

"The logic of divide and rule is still valid today." Capleton

DPP; DomePoem Poets; Vibe Nation; One ppl under the spoken word
17469, RE: you could start with
Posted by guest, Fri Mar-09-01 09:44 AM
She has contact with women from Afghanistan, MYSELF included.

By the way, Abduhu, go visit www.Rawa.org. Tell me that the savage behavior by the Taliban that you will read and see on those pages is what the Qu'ran dictates.

Please, do not be mistaken, those are not your brothers just because they claim to be so. You should open your eyes and see that they are hiding under the name of Islam. In fact, you should be appalled at the Taliban because through their actions, they are bringing down the international respect for the Islamic religion.

If the world associates the Taliban with Islam, the world will associate Islam with savagery.

Tell me...what sources do YOU have for your knowledge of the plight of women in Afghanistan?

I'll tell you mine. My sources is that I am from Afghanistan. I was born there. I have family there. I had family there who have been murdered and who have died because of the Taliban, which I also consider murder.


17470, RE: you could start with
Posted by abduhu, Fri Mar-09-01 11:13 AM
bismillah

how do you feel about the executions of murderers and adulterists, cutting off of hands for theives, lashings for unmarried sex ofenders?
17471, RE: you could start with
Posted by guest, Fri Mar-09-01 11:17 AM
I feel their fate is still to be determined in a court of law, not by the Taliban. Who are they? They are doing worse things. They are thieves themselves, and rapists, and murderers. So who is to cut their hands off and/or kill them??

Besides, you bring this up...but what about the women who are being stoned to death for showing any part of their skin.

You have to understand, not everyone in Afghanistan is Muslim. Why should those who are not Muslim be forced to abide by these Taliban laws?
17472, RE: you could start with
Posted by abduhu, Fri Mar-09-01 11:19 AM
bismillah

what kind of court?
and whose laws?
17473, RE: you could start with
Posted by guest, Fri Mar-09-01 11:28 AM
This is why there SHOULD be separation of church and state.

It should be in a court of justice, which has its own faults but is much more civilized and fair than what's happening now.
17474, also
Posted by guerilla_love, Thu Mar-08-01 12:23 PM
i'd like a little more detail about what kinda changes you're talking about in this case and hor our system is set up to make that go smoothly


==**peace**==

"Words without work is not enough." Sizzla

There is more danger in the word exotic than in a sharpened machete --me

"The logic of divide and rule is still valid today." Capleton

DPP; DomePoem Poets; Vibe Nation; One ppl under the spoken word
17475, You Americans are GROSS!
Posted by Solarus, Thu Mar-08-01 06:25 PM

17476, Change? How?
Posted by Nettrice, Thu Mar-08-01 08:13 PM
Ask any women if they like being mistreated because of their gender and most will say no. Ask them does it matter whether or not they live in the US or the Middle East and although I don't know what they will say but I say no. It is like asking someone rather they want their arm broken or raped or called a bitch. I'd rather no experience any of this.

The first step towards the solution to the mistreatment of women is acknowledging that many are treated as second-class citizens instead of vital members of a community.

My first step was not keeping my mouth shut about what I personally experienced as a child/teen. Often people are not willing to go there. They shut off or change the subject. This society is not yet willing to address the issue.

How does domestic abuse and rape personally effect you?

"Know thyself"

"Let your conduct be without covetousness; be content with such things as you have. For He Himself has said, "I will never leave you or forsake you". So we may boldly say, "The Lord is my helper, I will not fear. What can man do to me?"
-- Hebrews 13:5,6

"There is a difference between knowing the path and walking the path"
--Morpheus in "The Matrix"

"It's our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities"- Dumbledore to Harry Potter "Chamber of Secrets"
17477, RE: Change? How?
Posted by Zesi, Fri Mar-09-01 06:43 AM
Yes, it's not countries.
It's men.
Violence, mental, physical, spiritual, emotional, against women
is accepted in probably every corner of the world.

Yabbadabbadoozilla! (c) Bootzilla
http://www.funkknots.com
http://www.cartoonista.com
http://www.pocho.com

"You might as well pay attention/ you can't afford free speech" -George Clinton

"People need to stop saying that there is one way to be--and then the issue will disappear." Ntozake Shange-interview in _Mother_ _Jones_


17478, RE: The Treatment of Women in America
Posted by guest, Fri Mar-09-01 07:24 AM

>please recognize and realize the faults
>of your own nation b4
>pointing fingers somewhere else. b/c
>you know what "they" say
>about pointing fingers,......you got 3
>pointing right back at you!
>


You tell others to look at their own nation's faults before pointing their fingers. Well guess what? I can point my fingers. You know why? Because I AM A WOMAN FROM AFGHANISTAN and therefore I have something to say to you.

While I don't disagree with you that all nations have their faults, especially in the statistics of crimes against women, YOU ARE WRONG that women in America have it worse. Women in America are allowed to leave their homes without the accompaniment of a male relative.

Do you realize that a very large part of the female population in Afghanistan are widows??? Because their husbands and other male relatives were KILLED in either the Russian invasion or in the subsequent Civil war?? Or, even worse, they were MURDERED by the Taliban. So what about those women? Do you know they are DYING because they cannot leave their homes??!! Do you understand that women in MY family have DIED because they could not leave their homes and seek medical attention. Children are STARVING to death because their fathers are dead and their mothers might as well be, because they are held prisoners by the TALIBAN.

Oh, and in a later post you stated that you were tired of your BROTHERS being dogged. Excuse me?? What kind of Muslim are you? You consider the Taliban your brothers? If so, you must realize you are supporting a religion that is not Islam. Islam is NOT what the Taliban follow. Not the same Islam that the rest of the world embraces.

No, the Taliban use the name of Islam as justice, but it is NOT the same belief system that Muslims around the world have faith in. After all, the religion that the Taliban considers Islam allows them to rape and murder and oppress and drink and do drugs and beat and destroy and live violently. This is not what Islam preaches. If the Taliban's Islam is what YOU follow, my friend, YOU are a Taliban supporter and therefore no better than those savage monsters that have destroyed my beautiful country.

Oh, and in response to your message about the Buddhist statues in the other discussion thread... Why shouldn't there be Buddhist statues there? After all, there are Buddhist people there. Afghanistan, much to your dismay, I'm sure, is NOT 100% Muslim. No country in the world is. No country will ever be.

That you, a Muslim, support the Taliban is shameful.


17479, RE: The Treatment of Women in America
Posted by guest, Fri Mar-09-01 07:38 AM
I failed to mention that my last post was directed to the guy who started this thread...


17480, RE: The Treatment of Women in America
Posted by abduhu, Fri Mar-09-01 08:01 AM
bismillah

sis, i have to get back w/ you later.

time for Jumah prayers.
17481, RE: The Treatment of Women in America
Posted by abduhu, Fri Mar-09-01 11:21 AM
>While I don't disagree with you
>that all nations have their
>faults, especially in the statistics
>of crimes against women, YOU
>ARE WRONG that women in
>America have it worse. Women
>in America are allowed to
>leave their homes without the
>accompaniment of a male relative.

how long have you been here in the states?
17482, RE: The Treatment of Women in America
Posted by guest, Fri Mar-09-01 11:29 AM
>>While I don't disagree with you
>>that all nations have their
>>faults, especially in the statistics
>>of crimes against women, YOU
>>ARE WRONG that women in
>>America have it worse. Women
>>in America are allowed to
>>leave their homes without the
>>accompaniment of a male relative.
>
>how long have you been here
>in the states?


About 15 years. Most of my family is still back home in Afghanistan. Why?
17483, RE: The Treatment of Women in America
Posted by abduhu, Fri Mar-09-01 11:39 AM
bismillah

do you still cover from head to toe, except for the face and eyes?
17484, RE: The Treatment of Women in America
Posted by guest, Fri Mar-09-01 11:43 AM

What is the relevance of your question?
17485, RE: The Treatment of Women in America
Posted by abduhu, Fri Mar-09-01 11:53 AM
bismillah

youll see the point im getting to, i promise.
do you wear it (the covering)?
17486, RE: The Treatment of Women in America
Posted by guest, Fri Mar-09-01 11:54 AM
Do you wear your beard to the length required by Islam?
17487, RE: The Treatment of Women in America
Posted by abduhu, Fri Mar-09-01 11:56 AM
bismillah

yes

and i make my salah 5 times a day.

do you wear it?
17488, RE: The Treatment of Women in America
Posted by guest, Fri Mar-09-01 12:01 PM
Like many people in my country, I am not Muslim, therefore I do not.

Surprised?

I bet you assumed since I am from Afghanistan that I'm also Muslim. Perhaps you assumed such because I embrace Islam.

You need to understand that I embrace all religions, even if I do not believe in their preachings.

As I stated several times so far, NOT everybody in Afghanistan is Muslim. It is unfair for a country that for so long was ruled politically NOT religiously, to suddenly be uprooted and be ruled by the Taliban who CLAIM to be Muslim, but really aren't anything better than savage beasts spawned by Shaytan.

So, NOW make your point about the burqua.
17489, RE: The Treatment of Women in America
Posted by abduhu, Fri Mar-09-01 12:06 PM
bismillah

if youre not muslim, then what?

and i promise i will still get to the "burqa".
17490, RE: The Treatment of Women in America
Posted by guest, Fri Mar-09-01 12:09 PM

I believe in one and only one God, and that is all anyone needs to know.


17491, RE: The Treatment of Women in America
Posted by abduhu, Fri Mar-09-01 03:16 PM
>
>I believe in one and only
>one God, and that is
>all anyone needs to know.
>


bismillah

the burqa: i was going to say that you were one of the many women who wants to be muslim, but doesnt want to cover, but since you said you're not muslim, it doesnt matter.

now as far as the taliban making women cover up: the muslim women HAVE TO. the non muslim women under the rule of an islamic state has to dress in a decent manner. and lets say, even though this is not the case, a non muslim woman in Afghanistan wanted to wear a t-shirt and shorts. it aint happening. this would cause a stir in the society, like it does here. and might lead to prblems like divorce, diseases from unmarried sex, rape, etc.

the point: under islamic rule (which afghanistan is under), non muslims are free to do what ever they want to, inside their home. but there are rules outside the home.
Ex: if they let christians publicly celebrate christmas, this might lead some of the weak muslims to want to join them, thereby breaking the islamic society that was supposed to be established in the first place.

whatever the taliban does that is not ordained by Allah, i dont suppport it.

im truly sorry for any thing that the taliban did that according to islam they shouldnt have done, but as long as they say la ilaha illa Allah (there is no deity worthy of worship except Allah), they are my brothers, just like the muslim down the street with the gas station sellin alcohol.

sining, but still a muslim.
make bad choices and decisions, but still a muslim.
muslim until they say "im not muslim", and this is what he/she really believes in their heart.
17492, RE: !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by Shimmy, Sat Mar-10-01 08:09 AM
this would cause a stir in the society, like it does here. and might lead to prblems like divorce, diseases from unmarried sex, rape, etc.

Goddess give me strength!!!

I will take special note today, I will give thanks for my ability to live as a free thinking woman. I will give thanks for the love of my friends and family--and the fact they choose to support me and not to dictate.
I will give thanks that I am free to make my own mistakes, to pursue my dreams, to speak my mind.

I am so lucky.

I can't even respond to your rationale Abduhu, but thank you for reminding me of what I have...

Shim




17493, RE: !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by abduhu, Sat Mar-10-01 11:13 AM
> this would cause a stir
>in the society, like it
>does here. and might lead
>to prblems like divorce, diseases
>from unmarried sex, rape, etc.
>
>
>Goddess give me strength!!!
>
>I will take special note today,
>I will give thanks for
>my ability to live as
>a free thinking woman. I
>will give thanks for the
>love of my friends and
>family--and the fact they choose
>to support me and not
>to dictate.
>I will give thanks that I
>am free to make my
>own mistakes, to pursue my
>dreams, to speak my mind.
>
>
>I am so lucky.
>
>I can't even respond to your
>rationale Abduhu, but thank you
>for reminding me of what
>I have...
>
>Shim
>
>
>
>


bismillah

remember the puerto rican day parade in new york?
remember?
the men who attacked those women.
almost killed raped those women.
even one who was with her husband!
remember the rollerblader woman?

the women in the crowd of men had the right to dress any way they wanted to. and they did. and they paid for it.
what those men did was dead wrong, no ifs ands about it.
and i hope they suffer for it. i just didnt make any sense. but those women put theirselves in a situation that they didnt have to. was it really necessary for them to wear what they wore, just b/c they got the freedom of choice?
was it right for the men to do what they did just b/c they got freedom of choice?

muslims believe in freedom.
but, some people take advantage of that freedom.
just look at the general discussion board!
freedom of speech at work!
and it dont make no damn sense the stuff that people post.
"whats your favorite position"
"bitches, wheres my money"
"when i wake up in the morning i need some weed"
"oral sex debate n okay activist!"
freedom of speech at work!

this kind of filth never happen in an islamic society.
and if it does, nobody knows about it.
they do it in their homes, and make sure no one knows.

lets keep it real, shim.
you and i both know that there are some choices people should be allowed to make.

if i wanted to run the red lights all the time, is that cool?
if i wanted to make bomb threats over the internet, is that cool?
if i wanted to murder someone, is that cool?

the answer to all of these is.....no.
why?
b/c at the intersecton of the light, there is a person who has the right to live and keep his car in one piece.
b/c at the other end of the internet, there is someone who has the right to be safe from any type of threats and the right to live.
b/c the victim has the right to not be injured or lose their life.

but nobody is crying about these rights being taken away.
b/c they are beneficial to society.

islam is for the benefit of society.
when a person murders, the victims family can forgive or have him killed. why? if he lives the victims family might take it out on a relative of the murderer, and that is not right b/c the relative didnt do anything.
islam is benefitting society, and not leading to stuff like the hatfields and mc coys or bloods and crips.

if a married person commits adultery, and 4, not 1 or 2, but 4 witnesses see it the person is killed. why? b/c he is causing a disruption in society by breaking his own family! causing a disruption in society by bringing his wife diseases that prevent her from procreating or possibly killing her. causing a disrution in society by having illegitimate children. causing a disruption in society by not taking care of the child, causing the burden to fall back on the mother.
islam benefits society, by getting rid of the problem.
makes others think twice, b4 taking advantage of freedom of choice.

look at adultery and divorce in america.
america has the highest divorce rate of any country!
and adultery.
what happens to the man or the woman.
nothing. they just get a divorce and divide up property, the women, 90% of the time, getting the bigger share.
as far as im concerned that property the men/women get is just salt on a open wound. they give it to them to satisfy them, but leave the men/women to go and treat somebody else the same way!!!
leaving the victimizer in society to victimize someone else.
this is a detriment to society, b/c the problem is still there.

but islam takes care of that.


17494, RE: polar opposites
Posted by Shimmy, Sat Mar-10-01 05:04 PM
I think we could take all day--and probably all the space on the board to illustrate our differences in opinions....

I come from a pagan perspective, heavily influenced by Zen Buddhism.
I think myself to be very spiritual--but my only rule is "do what you will, harm none"
Personal responsibility, which I take very seriously.

When I read your posts, I feel constriction and judgement.

I guess my philosophy is on the other end of the spectrum---but it works for me.

And I suppose that is my point ultimately....North America(I'm in Canada) affords a person like me the ability to express myself without MUCH backlash...I'm not trying to demean the struggle of many women in our society, but for me personally , I feel very free.

I also take full advantage of those opportunities.I lead what you would probably consider a very sinful life, but
I'm prepared to settle with my maker when the time comes.

You and I have chosen different paths, obviously you feel very committed to your understanding of truth.
I feel though, if you truly believe a woman DESERVES to be assaulted based on the clothing she opted to wear, I'm not sure I wish to have any further dialogue.

You are entitled to your opinion,but I think that any idea not fed to you thru the Mosque will fall on deaf ears.

Blessed Be

Shimmy




17495, RE: polar opposites
Posted by abduhu, Sat Mar-10-01 06:45 PM
bismillah

>I'm prepared to settle with my
>maker when the time comes.

im curious. who is your maker?
and how are you going to setle w/ him when the time comes?

>You and I have chosen different
>paths, obviously you feel very
>committed to your understanding of
>truth.
>I feel though, if you truly
>believe a woman DESERVES to
>be assaulted based on the
>clothing she opted to wear,
>I'm not sure I wish
>to have any further dialogue.

if youre referring to those in the puerto rican day parade, the answer is no.
if youre referring to the muslim women in afghanistan, the answer is yes.
if your referring to the nonmuslim in afghanistan, the answer is yes.

but let me point out, that i dont just feel this way about women. i feel the same about men too.
if a man wanted to wear some shorts that came above his knee, or just a pair of pants that did not cover his navel, then he deserves punishment in an islamic state, b/c it is forbidden for a man to show anything below his navel and above his knees.

this is islam.


>You are entitled to your opinion,but
>I think that any idea
>not fed to you thru
>the Mosque will fall on
>deaf ears.

this is not true, b/c if it was i wouldnt be dialoging w/ you now or any one else. i wouldnt respond back at all.
my ears are always open.

i'll tell you a couple of secrets:
i used to be a christian (half-assed) and,
im an american (not patriotic, though).

now, im a muslim (so ican speak on islam AND christianity) and,
im still american (but now i see her through diff. eyes)

my point in telling you these "secrets":
i had, i have, and i will always have hearing ears (if Allah wills), and i am open to all comments, suggestions, thoughts, etc,...

but that doest mean that i wont scrutinize them, critique them, or reject them.

thats just human nature. to reject what does not sit good w/ him/her.

Allah says about Truth and Falsehood:
21:18 Nay! We hurl The Truth against falsehood, and it knocks out it's brain, and behold, falsehood perishes! Ah! woe be to you for the false things you ascribe.

b good and may Allah guide you

subhakallahumma wabihamdika ashhadu anla ilaha illa anta astaghfiruka wa attuubu ilaika
17496, RE: polar opposites
Posted by Shimmy, Sun Mar-11-01 07:09 AM
> and how are you going to setle w/ him when the time comes?

You assume its a him????

>but that doest mean that i wont scrutinize them, critique them, or reject them.

This is where I have difficulty believing you...because it will always come down to the word of Islam.Are you really able to scrutinize a different position if it contradicts your belief system???
Or is it merely a challenge to find a way to justify your perspective?

Don't get me wrong though--I see you have good intentions.I see that you approach these discussions with respect, and I appreciate that...



Shimmy

17497, This was obvious
Posted by Solarus, Mon Mar-12-01 04:31 PM
"i'll tell you a couple of secrets:
i used to be a christian (half-assed) and,
im an american (not patriotic, though).

now, im a muslim (so ican speak on islam AND christianity) and,
im still american (but now i see her through diff. eyes)"
17498, Whoa!
Posted by MisterGrump, Fri Mar-09-01 11:40 AM
>i'm sorry, but i have to be. its a religious obligation of mine to be defensive of my brothers. and besides, nobody else is.


Thass all fine and dandy and all, but I think you need to be focusing on ya SISTERS! Cuz from what i've read about what's going on in Afghanistan, the women need assistance to defend themselves from the men.





little.
*************************************
http://members.blackplanet.com/GrumpyBear/
*************************************
17499, Hmmm...
Posted by Nettrice, Fri Mar-09-01 12:29 PM
...the whole point of this discussion (I thought) was supposed to be a discussion about the mistreatment of women, period. It is unfortunate that some men use religious beliefs and society's standards to justify the subjugation and abuse of women. This is a big part of the problem.

It doesn't matter the method men use or to what extent the women are abused. What matters is that many men justify the mistreatment of women using religion or history or conditioning. Actually, it is all about conditioning. Men can be violent, disrespectful, oppressive towards women? That's ok? No, never, not in any circumstance or geographic location!

I once had a friend who was trying to stay in school and raise a baby she had by an older man. She was from South America and had no family in the US. She thought the older man would support her and eventually the baby she had. When she decided to keep going to college her boyfriend started beating her. One day he beat her and hit the baby. She ran for her life and the only person she could turn to was me. She came to me battered and without her baby. All she wanted was to get her baby back.

We went to the nearest police precint. For an nearly hour, I witnessed the most degrading line of questioning from the police women and men on duty: "What did you do to provoke your boyfiend?", "Why did he hit you?", "Why didn't you take the baby with you?", "If he didn't let you take the baby why didn't you stay and call the police?", and on and on.

The point of this story is my friend had no rights. She was in the country legally and she was an American citizen. Her boyfriend had the right to abuse her and take her baby. Not!

Come on people!


"Know thyself"

"Let your conduct be without covetousness; be content with such things as you have. For He Himself has said, "I will never leave you or forsake you". So we may boldly say, "The Lord is my helper, I will not fear. What can man do to me?"
-- Hebrews 13:5,6

"There is a difference between knowing the path and walking the path"
--Morpheus in "The Matrix"

"It's our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities"- Dumbledore to Harry Potter "Chamber of Secrets"
17500, stories
Posted by guerilla_love, Fri Mar-09-01 12:47 PM
good idea, i have a few myself.

like the woman who calls 911 screaming that she is being beaten and then the police leave when the door isn't answered an hour later when they actually show up

like a husband violating a restraining order to beat his whole damned family with about 10-15 witnesses and then getting out of jail again that night

like the time half the neighborhood watched a man rape his wife in the street before somebody finally got the nerve to call the police, who didn't show up (because the 7-11 was a block away) for a good half hour after she'd left town and never came back thanks to the (too late, but he saved her life) intervention of one neighbor

like the wives who never mention the times when sex with their husbands is far from consenual because they think it's a private matter

like the dangers that devaluation of divorce has on women who need to always be free to leave if they sense danger coming

like the immiediacy of the situation when you're gettin the crap beat out of you right at that moment

yeh, that should be the point of the post, but i got the sense that the point of the post was to say america is the worst, which, as you said, completely undermines the gravity and immiediacy of the issue

ever try to get a morning after pill or abortion? you will not BELIEVE what kinda shit some doctors will feel is acceptable to say. and some politicians for that matter.



==**peace**==

"Words without work is not enough." Sizzla

There is more danger in the word exotic than in a sharpened machete --me

"The logic of divide and rule is still valid today." Capleton

DPP; DomePoem Poets; Vibe Nation; One ppl under the spoken word
17501, Great Points!!!!!!!!
Posted by MisterGrump, Fri Mar-09-01 01:55 PM
No system is perfect goes to show for the US has it's flaws. Dude should have went the route you two did in presenting his case.


little.
*************************************
http://members.blackplanet.com/GrumpyBear/
*************************************
17502, RE: stories
Posted by Nettrice, Fri Mar-09-01 03:49 PM
I think many people know of or have experienced this kind of incidents. It's a shame. The stories I have shared were not stats or things I've heard about. These are stories I have experienced but there are millions...

...I just wish more people would talk about this openly.

"Know thyself"

"Let your conduct be without covetousness; be content with such things as you have. For He Himself has said, "I will never leave you or forsake you". So we may boldly say, "The Lord is my helper, I will not fear. What can man do to me?"
-- Hebrews 13:5,6

"There is a difference between knowing the path and walking the path"
--Morpheus in "The Matrix"

"It's our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities"- Dumbledore to Harry Potter "Chamber of Secrets"
17503, RE: stories
Posted by Sudani, Fri Mar-09-01 05:49 PM
What is the saddest is that there are MORE Women on earth(apprximately 5 to 1) than Men.

Why aren't the women of the world rallying together?

We are daughters,wives, and mothers...We birth and raise these men, where did WE go wrong?

Why are the powerful men of the world NOT concerned with these problems?

Women in the USA continue to be manipulated by the media.
Constantly consumming.
Constanly trying to please men who do NOTHING positive.

You would think that we actuall ARE mentally inferior the way things are going........


17504, as long as
Posted by urbgriot, Mon Mar-12-01 08:45 AM
You have mentalities like abduhu then that will never happen...


peace...
17505, It is interesting...
Posted by Solarus, Mon Mar-12-01 08:49 AM
that you are a seemingly avid follower of Islam yet you ask these questions?