Okay peeps, let's do this.
-Do you think that the authors method was used to organize and limit the FBI documents was effective? or should they have focused on other movements?

-Did the authors do a good job of providing background information? Were the groups and each movement placed in historical, political, and social context?

-For each Cointelpro program let's consider the following:
a. what were the tactics used?
b. what effect did cointelpro have on the organizations?
c. what effect did factionalism have on each movement?
d. at what point in the movement did the FBI decided to neurtralize leaders and cause havoc?
``````````````````
Puerto Rican Independence Movement, the Cointelpro became formal when the MPIPR and PSP unified. Also, to prevent the unification of Black folks and Ricans a phony document was generated that claimed that most Ricans were not of African descent.

When the Organization of Afro-American Unity and SWP attempted to form an alliance it was foiled by concentraiting on the atheism of SWP.

Black Panther Party was considered the biggest threat to 'national security' when it usnified with SNCC.
`````````````````
-What role do you think the federal government currently plays in the demise of various Movements?

-What organizations do you think are currently on the FBI list and what actions have they taken to neutralize them?


Some general thoughts that I have after reading this book for the second time is that:
a. I think that Dyson's book on Martin Luther King is in a way in direct response to this book. I think this b/c in Cointelpro papers the authors tried to keep the 'legacy and image' of MLK alive by saying that the tapes and documents about his sexual acts were lies and all a scan. Dyson's used numerous FBI documents/tapes/video in his book. So do you think it was all FBI foul play and MLK wasn't a 'sex machine/ho'? or does who is was fucking take away from the struggle and his legacy? I don't think say, like I've said before King was hu(man) just like the rest of us and if he was a 'ho' so what. I am able to seperate the man from his mission.
b. Cointelpro was structured around the same premise as Willie Lynch's 'divide and conquer'. The biggest threat to this country would be a unified front of Black folks and they know it so the 'powers that be' does everything in their power to prevent this.
c. We seriously need to address this 'leaders' issue. Organizations can not exist if there is only one (wo)man defining and running the movement. When Garvey died the UNIA was shot to hell. It should have been a priority of Garvey to have leadership in the making. With all orgs. we must stop putting 'all our all' in one person. There has to be more than one person in the know.
d. When I attended the Black Radical Congress my greatest frustration was the debate over ideologies. I think that it is imp. to find the common ground and tackle problems from the common ground. This is reflected in the FBI tactics of weakening Movements by focusing on the differnces. They know as long as they can keep up the debate over varying ideologies then there will be dissention among oppressed folks.
e. Also, it is important to work with grassroots and local organizations in an attempt to prevent the success of neutralizing local leaders before they are able to consolidate with others.
f. The book also reinforced the point, that you should not believe everything you hear, see, or read. I think that the attack on Farrakhan during the MMM was a good example of this. Forces painted his as a monster, ignoring the potential good of the MMM. Forces tried to keep christian organizations/demoninations and orthodox groups from supporting the MMM b/c of varying beliefs. I am not pro-Farrakhan but I can seperate the man and the religion from the mission.
g. I am wondering why the attack on Jesse Louis right now. It can't be b/c of his disapproval of Bush's appointments. This Jackson issue with the baby and taxes is far deeper. But why now?

WE WILL DISCUSS PAGES 163-328 ON MARCH 26TH

April's book is THE HAUNTING OF HIP HOP: A NOVEL--- BY BERTICE BERRY. TO START ON APRIL 24TH
Join in on the discussion!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
--------sig-----------
Monthly BOOK DISCUSSION in OkayActivist
March 12th
Conintelpro Papers by Ward Churchil and Jim Vander Wall
GET YO READ ON .........
------------
If U WANNA ACTIVATE, contact ChicagoActivist
Email us: chicagoactivist@africana.com
Check out the website:
http://chicagoactivist.cjb.net/
Call us: 1-312-777-4001 ext 4409
NEXT MEETING TBA
~~~~~~~~~
nappiness is next to Godliness!!!!!!
Ms. Nappiness
----------
http://www.geocities.com/okay_poets/begin.html

Peace,
I want to thank You nappiness for bringing up this very REAL issue. "If We think We are free, We will never be"Dead Prez. Unity at this point is so critical to Black People. ALL Black People. Muslims, Christians, Rastas, Nation of Gods and Earths,Kappas, Alphas, Sigmas, New Yorkers, ATLiens, Cali Peoples We are so caught up in what someone believes in and where they are from and will base Our interaction based on those type criteria. Its a fine tuned "divide and conquer" tactic. There was a discussion last month about what is REAL Islam versus what was just a "sect" and I was trying to get the People involved in that thread to note that We shouldnt keep finding new ways of dividing Ourselves from each other. Whether You are part of a sect or are the REAL Islamic doesnt matter because Our REAL focus should be breaking these chains of oppression.
I see that this isnt really an objective of People on OKplayer. This thread has been here a day and I am the first Person to reply. I guess if You were talking about solving effects(like that tired argument Men vs Women) You would get some responses. It just shows We dont want solutions We just want to cry and moan about them. Circle thinking. Again thank You nappiness.Peace

>I see that this isnt really
>an objective of People on
>OKplayer.

you were cool until this point. the problem you completely miss (which i believe is discussed somewhere within the archives...hint...hint) is that Black people come from a myriad of cultures, backgrounds, and ideologies. Colored skin doesn't necessarily a brother or sister make, nahmeen?

To paint the readers/posters of OKP with such a broad brush is divide and conquer because you're still playing the "me/we vs. you game". You're part of the "People on OKplayer", so your statement is faulty from the gitgo.

I say, plant your seed. If the soil is fertile for the kind of growth you want, fruit will be produced. If (which may very well happen) no one is interested in building with you you have two choices: leave, and the "problem(s)" won't get any bvetter or stay, keep planting and hope that something you've brought up/forward will spark something.

I admire nappiness, wbgirl, and many others here because regardless of the amount (or lack) of support they get, they keep on plugging.

I feel your pain, but after reading your response about "crying and complaining" i think you may very well have done/become that about which you speak.

be careful, because sometimes there is a thin line between examining an issue and taking part in it.

stay blessed, and keep moving.

------QUOTE STARTS HERE------
BooDaah-OkayActivist Moderator
(see Candy1's sig about what that means)
** PLEASE READ THE POSTING GUIDELINES:
http://www.okayplayer.com/guidelines.html
-----------------------------
Sister SheRise's Activist Stew Recipe:
Step1:inform yourself step/Step2:inform others/Step3:discuss the problem/Step4: DISCUSS SOLUTIONS/Step5:EXECUTE SOLUTIONS/Step6:evaluate the results/Step7:start over at 1 until desired result is accomplished.
-----------------------------
"What are we as African Americans? Let's really examine how we are contributing to the projection of our own images of ourselves. What are we really willing to give up? Our integrity? The honor of our community, just for some money? "-Jada

i like your thoughts. good points made.

peace

shmooz

"i wanna be a pioneer so trails i blaze"

"hip hop you're the love of my life"

(goodasspost!)

thanks, first of all for bringing this up. i haven't read the book (and don't foresee a stretch in the near future to do so...), but i am somewhat familiar w/ the aims and devices of cointelpro.

>Okay peeps, let's do this.
>-Do you think that the authors
>method was used to organize
>and limit the FBI documents
>was effective? or should they
>have focused on other movements?

>-Did the authors do a good
>job of providing background information?
> Were the groups and
>each movement placed in historical,
>political, and social context?

excellent questions -- great jumping off point for discussion, hopefully someone who's read the books can add on (in the meantime, we'll keep pushing this up until it catches on like a 'natural hair' post)

>Puerto Rican Independence Movement, the Cointelpro
>became formal when the MPIPR
>and PSP unified. Also,
>to prevent the unification of
>Black folks and Ricans a
>phony document was generated that
>claimed that most Ricans were
>not of African descent.

that's critical. a lot of times (it seems) we view c/pro as a just-us proposition, when it was actually designed to prevent any and everybody from linking their struggles.

>When the Organization of Afro-American Unity
>and SWP attempted to form
>an alliance it was foiled
>by concentraiting on the atheism
>of SWP.

religion is a powerful force in both directions. it has the potential to provide motivation and energy, or retard progress. notice how 'things fall apart' on the boards when the topic of religion comes up. as i've mentioned elsewhere, heads who come from the same general bag all of a sudden notice vast differences. how many posts get hijacked or sidetracked from the original topics because we enter into arguments based on faith (or respect for another persons having or not having it).

>-What role do you think the
>federal government currently plays in
>the demise of various Movements?
>
>
>-What organizations do you think are
>currently on the FBI list
>and what actions have they
>taken to neutralize them?
>
>
>Some general thoughts that I have
>after reading this book for
>the second time is that:
>
>a. I think that Dyson's book
>on Martin Luther King is
>in a way in direct
>response to this book.

interesting.

>I think this b/c in
>Cointelpro papers the authors tried
>to keep the 'legacy and
>image' of MLK alive by
>saying that the tapes and
>documents about his sexual acts
>were lies and all a
>scan. Dyson's used numerous
>FBI documents/tapes/video in his book.
> So do you think
>it was all FBI foul
>play and MLK wasn't a
>'sex machine/ho'? or does who
>is was fucking take away
>from the struggle and his
>legacy?

don't know if he was. i'm prolly not qualified to quantify 'hoe-ness'. if he was on some extracurricular? it seems like that was the case since we hear it from so many sources, but i can't call it.


I don't think
>say, like I've said before
>King was hu(man) just like
>the rest of us and
>if he was a 'ho'
>so what. I am
>able to seperate the man
>from his mission.

no doubt.

>b. Cointelpro was structured around the
>same premise as Willie Lynch's
>'divide and conquer'.

say word.

>
>c. We seriously need to
>address this 'leaders' issue.
>Organizations can not exist if
>there is only one (wo)man
>defining and running the movement.
> When Garvey died the
>UNIA was shot to hell.
> It should have been
>a priority of Garvey to
>have leadership in the making.
> With all orgs. we
>must stop putting 'all our
>all' in one person.

i've been saying this for a long time to no one in particular. this charismatic leadership bag will take us nowhere. you take out the main man or woman, and you get left w/ a bunch of aimless ex-disciples who'll vent some energy, and perhaps succeed in finishing the last tasks the leader had outlined before evaporating.

>There has to be more
>than one person in the
>know.
>d.

rallying 'round the king is played out like the feudal system. that's com sense. if you're enemy is charging toward you led by a cat in a crown, who you aimin the crossbow at?

When I attended the
>Black Radical Congress my greatest
>frustration was the debate over
>ideologies. I think that
>it is imp. to find
>the common ground and tackle
>problems from the common ground.
> This is reflected in
>the FBI tactics of weakening
>Movements by focusing on the
>differnces. They know as
>long as they can keep
>up the debate over varying
>ideologies then there will be
>dissention among oppressed folks.
>e.

this board is a fertile ground for finding those type of techniques to build consensus among differing factions. even my man Expertise be on some ish i can get with some days (:-)). unless folks are just outright evil, there should be common ground to be found.

they do it in business, its called coopetition (combination of cooperation and competition -- i love corporate double-speak). you can form alliances with companies that you compete with in different markets. i wouldn't advocate black folk, progressives, or whoever to be as 'snaky' as these biz deals can get, but we can learn from the ground rules. the keys are to ensure that the alliance gets you closer to a strategic goal than you'd be able to get on your own (or quicker, or for less $$$), and that the partnership doesn't jeopardize your overall plan.

from an activist perspective, you can take the first condition as it is and alter the second to be "as long as the partnership does not undercut your core values/beliefs, or serve to strengthen a group which is fundamentally opposed to your existence".

as such, you could probably get down with libertarians on a search and seizure issue, but you wouldn't get down with, say, the NRA, under any condition or pretense. realpolitik.



Also, it is important
>to work with grassroots and
>local organizations in an attempt
>to prevent the success of
> neutralizing local leaders before
>they are able to consolidate
>with others.
>f. The book also reinforced
>the point, that you should
>not believe everything you hear,
>see, or read.

we should start a thread with a primer on critical analysis. how to break down and disect the news, etc.

i gotta bounce. dope post. it will get some responses. trust.

peace & blessings,

x.

on the news page ain't enough to get a reply? not one. not nair air (as in air we breave) ONE? damn.



peace & blessings,

x.

not everyone has a copy of the cointelpro papers lying around their crib.

hell, i haven't even gone to the library to check it out yet. and i have the nerve to call myself an activist...ha! (sarcasm, y'all.)

just sayin'.

~~wbg~~
Chicago 2001...will u be ready?
activists send messages here:
chicagoactivist@africana.com
everyone click here:
http://www.recordkingdom.com
and here:
http://www.breastcancer3day.org

"Work is only a place where you do as little as possible to make rent money and to have fast internet access."
(c) J_Sun

women's history month 2001:
this month is dedicated to my mother, florence house (march 22,1933-march 1, 1984)
thanks 4 everything, mama.

how about jazz? ya like jazz?-lisa simpson

but bruh raised some questions that go beyond whether you've read the book or not. cointelpro (and whatever its called now) has to be addressed if we're serious about any type of movement, from greenpeace to the panthers. i'd think that heads on this board would want to react/respond to a post like this on gp.

then again, maybe they are, since i've read and enjoyed some of your posts w/o replying.

peace & blessings,

x.

i know you meant no offense but i am a SISTA.
continue.......and you are right you didn't have to read the book to discuss the issues that were presented.
--------sig-----------
Monthly BOOK DISCUSSION in OkayActivist
March 12th pages 1-162
March 26th pages 162-328
Conintelpro Papers by Ward Churchil and Jim Vander Wall

April 24th
The Haunting fo HipHop: a novel by Bertice Berry
GET YO READ ON .........
------------
If U WANNA ACTIVATE, contact ChicagoActivist
Email us: chicagoactivist@africana.com
Check out the website:
http://chicagoactivist.cjb.net/
Call us: 1-312-777-4001 ext 4409
NEXT MEETING TBA
~~~~~~~~~
nappiness is next to Godliness!!!!!!
Ms. Nappiness
----------
http://www.geocities.com/okay_poets/begin.html

I haven't been on the board here for a while, and I just came on today and saw the plug for this topic on Stress's news update.
This is the first time that the book I've noticed being discussed on here is something I'm familiar with.
I own a copy of the Papers, and have read large parts of it, but never all the way through, because I already had read all of another book on COINTELPRO before I bought it. I also had read many of the famous available documents before reading that (i.e. the famous "prevent the rise of a black messiah" memo that foreshadows the deaths of MLK and Malcolm).

I thought I would respond briefly to some of your discussion questions:

>-For each Cointelpro program let's consider
>the following:
>a. what were the tactics used?

Division, disruption, instigation of infighting, destruction of public image (to prevent radical viewpoints from making their way to more mainstream Americans, who may have become more interested in say, the Panthers, had the FBI not caused them to be portrayed as nothing more than "crazy black men with guns" with no actual political points), and even cold-blooded murder (i.e. Fred Hampton).

>b. what effect did cointelpro have
>on the organizations?

It completely destroyed the Black Panther Party and the American Indian Movement.

>c. what effect did factionalism have
>on each movement?

As instigated by the FBI, it completely destroyed most of the movements, especially the Panthers and AIM.

>d. at what point in the
>movement did the FBI decided
>to neurtralize leaders and cause
>havoc?

That's a good question... It always seemed to me that no matter what Hoover may have tried to pretend, it was his intention all along to cause complete havoc and even commit violence toward leaders without any mercy whatsoever. He was an absolute scum of the earth.

>b. Cointelpro was structured around the
>same premise as Willie Lynch's
>'divide and conquer'. The
>biggest threat to this country
>would be a unified front
>of Black folks and they
>know it so the 'powers
>that be' does everything in
>their power to prevent this.

I don't think that's really true anymore now, though. I think now it's much more widespread as to what aspects of activism the government might find to be a big threat...
I think nowadays they would be more afraid of a widespread coalition: blacks, Native Americans, hispanics, whites, Asians, etc. who would all criticize the accepted state of American capitalism and corporate power...

At the same time though, the American status quo has found it very easy to marginalize any kind of activism, especially among African-Americans in the late 60's and early 70's by playing on "average" or "mainstream" American's fears, stereotypes, and general wariness of any viewpoints they don't understand, thus destroying the possibility of "conversion" by people who generally wouldn't have radical views.



>c. We seriously need to
>address this 'leaders' issue.
>Organizations can not exist if
>there is only one (wo)man
>defining and running the movement.
> When Garvey died the
>UNIA was shot to hell.
> It should have been
>a priority of Garvey to
>have leadership in the making.
> With all orgs. we
>must stop putting 'all our
>all' in one person.
>There has to be more
>than one person in the
>know.

Especially because all humans have flaws, and many people who end up becoming leaders of activist organization or movements have power/ego/desire trips that get in the way of the movement's progress.


>d. When I attended the
>Black Radical Congress my greatest
>frustration was the debate over
>ideologies. I think that
>it is imp. to find
>the common ground and tackle
>problems from the common ground.
> This is reflected in
>the FBI tactics of weakening
>Movements by focusing on the
>differnces. They know as
>long as they can keep
>up the debate over varying
>ideologies then there will be
>dissention among oppressed folks.

YES!! Right on.


>I am wondering why
>the attack on Jesse Louis
>right now. It can't
>be b/c of his disapproval
>of Bush's appointments. This
>Jackson issue with the baby
>and taxes is far deeper.
> But why now?

Well, I hate to be negative after saying "right on" to your comments on the left's destroying itself through internal differences/criticisms, but I think Jesse had it coming to him because he's not a very honest activist anyway. He is a media whore, he is obsessed with black capitalism nowadays and "entrepeneurship" and if his old cohort MLK were alive, I think he would be very wary of Jesse's motives in all of his financial supposedly "charitable" enterprises.

I hate to sound so negative though, because I still think he is a great man and has done some great things, but I just don't think he's a very true-to-himself activist.

It is definitely interesting, though, that the mainstream media that has usually been a huge part of Jesse Jackson's activity is suddenly now blowing up at him.

never apologize for those things that you see as truths. about jesses louis i do think that he has become a 'media whore' but he's been that for a long time. me and my mama use to joke about where exactly does he get his paycheck from, so i am not defending him but i still wonder, why now? jackson has been in the 'movement' for most of his life so why now is this attack coming about? he wasn't attacked when he looked like a dumb ass for depending those nuts that were caught on tape beating butts at a football game(in downstate illinois).
--------sig-----------
Monthly BOOK DISCUSSION in OkayActivist
March 12th pages 1-162
March 26th pages 162-328
Conintelpro Papers by Ward Churchil and Jim Vander Wall

April 24th
The Haunting of HipHop: a novel by Bertice Berry
GET YO READ ON .........
------------
If U WANNA ACTIVATE, contact ChicagoActivist
Email us: chicagoactivist@africana.com
Check out the website:
http://chicagoactivist.cjb.net/
Call us: 1-312-777-4001 ext 4409
NEXT MEETING TBA
~~~~~~~~~
nappiness is next to Godliness!!!!!!
Ms. Nappiness
----------
http://www.geocities.com/okay_poets/begin.html