I'm curious to see who is out there... and how you feel about it. I know a lot of non-vegetarians resent the veg lifestyle for whatever reasons, I'm curious to know where anyone stands on this.

Personally, I'm a vegetarian. The reasons for it are various, and I always try to answer people when they ask me questions about it. I NEVER have pushed my belief on others, yet I find that non-vegetarians who I occasionally cross paths with resent me because of it, I'm curious why this is, seeing as how I don't ever push it on anyone, I just practice it in their presence, what the deal?

i'm only mildly chagrined when folk go gestapo and turn the issue into one of of a battleline being drawn

other than that...

who ami i to trip off what someone eats (inless it's human fles or something)? that's their business.

I think for most non-veg, the initial reaction, is "Oh, so you think you're better than me cuz you don't eat meat?" I leave wee enough alone when it comes to people's personal choices, I just happen to think there are certain societal issues that revolve around eating meat, as trivial as that may sound, but you can pick at that statement if you'd like.

>societal issues

elaborate

>>societal issues
>
>elaborate

I've had people tell me that humans are allowed to eat meat, or even that they're supposed to eat meat, because The Bible says so. OK, fine, but The Bible says a lot of things; I don't think everyone measures up...

--Joe C
"Gyrofrog"
Have sax, will woodshed
-----
http://www.gyrofrog.com

>or even that they're
>supposed to eat meat, because
>The Bible says so.
>OK, fine, but The Bible
>says a lot of things;
>I don't think everyone measures
>up...

i dunno about SUPPOSED to as opposed to ALLOWED to, but even so prudence and discernment are required when one determines what is "profitable" to them.

but i digress....

how is that a societal issue?

Well, I was the one that said about societal issues, I will elaborate...

1) Obesity in this country is a direct atribute to the fact that we are also consume more meat per capita than any other country.

2) Raising cattle is very a very inefficient use of natural resources... the amount of crop pastureland that is needed to feed one cow to maturity could produce 500 times the amount of grain yielded in proportion to beef produced.

3) Since Upton Sinclair wrote "The Jungle", it's been evident that beef production is SHADY!

4) The conditions within slaughter houses are inhumane... documented cases of Purdue's chickens squeezed into pens so closely that their feet grow into the mesh floor below due to their inability to move.

5) My personal attachment to the issue is dealing with the civility of humankind and eating meat... the following quotes should illustrate this point...

When a man has pity on all living creatures then only is he noble.
--Buddha (563? - 483? B.C.)

Not to hurt our humble brethren (the animals) is our first duty to them, but to stop there is not enough. We have a higher mission--to be of service to them whenever they require it... If you have men who will exclude any of God's creatures from the shelter of compassion and pity, you will have men who will deal likewise with their fellow men.
--Saint Francis of Assisi (mystic and preacher)

"Until he extends the circle of compassion to all living things, man will not himself find peace."
--Albert Schweitzer

We are the living graves of murdered beasts, slaughtered to satisfy our appetites. How can we hope in this world to attain the peace we say we are so anxious for?
--George Bernard Shaw (Living Graves, published 1951)

Nothing more strongly arouses our disgust than cannibalism, yet we make the same impression on Buddhists and vegetarians, for we feed on babies, though not our own.
--Robert Louis Stevenson (1850-1894)

Nothing will benefit human health and increase chances for survival of life on Earth as much as the evolution to a vegetarian diet.
--Albert Einstein (1879-1955)

there are plenty more, but I think I made my point.

I agree with your points about the impact the meat industry has had on the environment in America. But it's not like this everywhere cause nations approach raising animals differently. Also most cultures that eat meat eat alot less meat than Americans do. In most places the amount of meat of one steak is just chopped up and placed in a rice dish that is for a whole family not one person. That's one reason that Americans have health problems from eating meat, because of the excess that is eaten. Look at a country like Japan. Obesity is a recent phenomenon there because now they have places like McDonald's. Before they never really had the problem. It's the excess demand for meat that pushes the environment out of balance and causes problem. If people had a balanced diet then there wouldn't be much of a problem. Also, the mistreatment towards animals - the stress that they are faced with, next to all the horomones, steroids, and other drugs given to them and the way they are slaughtered are all reasons that the meat of the animal becomes unhealthy.

The problem isn't eating meat itself, it's in how it is eaten. I.e. How much of it is eaten, how the animal is treated, etc. Alot of vegetarians miss this point I think. The point that eating meat itself is not an unhealthy or unnatural thing to do.

As far as equating being a vegetarian to being a person of compassion, this is a silly argument. The cycle of life on this planet and in the universe is that of life and death. New stars are born as old stars explode. People and certain animals receive nutrition from the meat of a dead animal. The life on this entire planet is fueled by a sun that is dying. To ignore this balanced pattern of life is being silly. It is easy to be a compassionate person and to eat meat. Personally, being a Muslim, it is preferred to calm the animal down by feeding it or giving it water, petting it, not sharpening the knife (the knife must be sharp so the animal's neck is slit as quickly as possible) in front of the animal's eyes or slaughtering an animal in front of another animal, and looking it in it's eyes while saying "Bismillah" (In the name of God) while slicing it's neck. This is compassion.

As far as the saying of "You are what you eat," I believe it. As a Muslim, the only animals lawful to eat are animals that are herbivores or vegetarians. It is unlawful to eat an animal with claws or fangs (that eats other animals).

Yusuf Abdus-Salaam

>>>societal issues
>>
>>elaborate
>
>I've had people tell me that
>humans are allowed to eat
>meat, or even that they're
>supposed to eat meat, because
>The Bible says so.
>OK, fine, but The Bible
>says a lot of things;
>I don't think everyone measures
>up...


Genesis says: God said, "I give you the PLANTS as your food and the ANIMALS as your servants." Check it out.

Not that I believe a word of the Bible, but it makes for a good argument with anti-vegetarian Christians.


JMello

"Those of us who spent time in the agricultural sector and in the heartland, we understand how unfair the death penalty is - the death tax is."

"Si, I'm very concerned about the amount of acreage in cultivation for the growth of cocoa leaves."

"...it's about past 7 here, so we're actually in different timelines."

"I am mindful not only of preserving executive powers for myself, but my predecessors, as well. And that's why I made the decision."

"I'm about to name my brother the ambassador to Chad."

"They don't seem to be flocking in right now, but it is dove season in Texas. I'm a hunter and if I decide to shoot some dove, I'll shoot 'em and eat 'em."

--President-Select George W. Bush--

When I say certain things about animals--that I feel we can learn from them, that they have souls like we do, etc--people often cite the Bible as the reason behind the "food chain" (e.g. "It's meant for us to eat them," etc.)

not sayin it's right/valid/logical/whatever, but I've heard it used.

L.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Homer: Do you wanna change your name to Homer, Jr? All the kids can call you HoJo!
Bart: uhh...I'll get back to you...

"my mama said/a lady ain't what she wears/but what she knows"~~India Arie

"Ignorance: The Verbal Airborne Disease" (c) my friend Ty

"writer's block is a...I mean, it's like...uh...damn." ~~Me

>Genesis says: God said, "I
>give you the PLANTS as
>your food and the ANIMALS
>as your servants." Check
>it out.
>
>Not that I believe a word
>of the Bible, but it
>makes for a good argument
>with anti-vegetarian Christians.

I should clarify... What the Bible says, and what these people may have TOLD me the Bible says, are not necessarily the same things.

--Joe C
"Gyrofrog"
Have sax, will woodshed
-----
http://www.gyrofrog.com

>>societal issues
>
>elaborate

I was a vegetarian for 6 years and recently have been considering returning. I can say that during those 6 years, there were certain instances when I felt like I was offending people through the mere fact of being a vegetarian. People of certain cultures, of which I have had the opportunity to share meals with, seem to view the preparation of and consumption of animal flesh as a bonding ritual and are shocked by one who opts out of this ritual. Also, in many societies meat is prohibitively expensive and when one offers a guest meat it is a sign of respect and sacrifice.


JMello

"Those of us who spent time in the agricultural sector and in the heartland, we understand how unfair the death penalty is - the death tax is."

"Si, I'm very concerned about the amount of acreage in cultivation for the growth of cocoa leaves."

"...it's about past 7 here, so we're actually in different timelines."

"I am mindful not only of preserving executive powers for myself, but my predecessors, as well. And that's why I made the decision."

"I'm about to name my brother the ambassador to Chad."

"They don't seem to be flocking in right now, but it is dove season in Texas. I'm a hunter and if I decide to shoot some dove, I'll shoot 'em and eat 'em."

--President-Select George W. Bush--

Interesting... you can think of it as almost a blood bond, forcing guests to share in the carnage!

>Interesting... you can think of it
>as almost a blood bond,
>forcing guests to share in
>the carnage!

Yo, lol at work.


JMello

"Those of us who spent time in the agricultural sector and in the heartland, we understand how unfair the death penalty is - the death tax is."

"Si, I'm very concerned about the amount of acreage in cultivation for the growth of cocoa leaves."

"...it's about past 7 here, so we're actually in different timelines."

"I am mindful not only of preserving executive powers for myself, but my predecessors, as well. And that's why I made the decision."

"I'm about to name my brother the ambassador to Chad."

"They don't seem to be flocking in right now, but it is dove season in Texas. I'm a hunter and if I decide to shoot some dove, I'll shoot 'em and eat 'em."

--President-Select George W. Bush--

I'm hoping to be totally vegetarian (still deciding on keeping/cutting out fish) by the end of the summer. And it wasn't even really a conscious decision. I just lost my taste for a lot of things.

But I ate meat for 22 years, so who am I to judge...

And even though I'm going veggie, I doubt I'll exercise more. So does that make me better/worse than the meat-eater who's in the gym 3 times a week?

To each his/her own, I say...

L.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Homer: Do you wanna change your name to Homer, Jr? All the kids can call you HoJo!
Bart: uhh...I'll get back to you...

"my mama said/a lady ain't what she wears/but what she knows"~~India Arie

"Ignorance: The Verbal Airborne Disease" (c) my friend Ty

"writer's block is a...I mean, it's like...uh...damn." ~~Me

that all depends on if you're doing it for health reasons or not... you will notice that you'll feel better physically from eating a good vegetarian diet, just because meat is so taxing on the digestive metabolism... but exercise is pretty important, just as much as the diet.

I'll get around to adhering to some kind of exercise regimen.

part of it is health reasons (hypertension in the fam, father developed diabetes, etc). The as far as the loss of my taste for it, I think it's some sort of instinctive/spiritual inclination I choose not to ignore.

*shrug* just my 2 cents.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Homer: Do you wanna change your name to Homer, Jr? All the kids can call you HoJo!
Bart: uhh...I'll get back to you...

"my mama said/a lady ain't what she wears/but what she knows"~~India Arie

"Ignorance: The Verbal Airborne Disease" (c) my friend Ty

"writer's block is a...I mean, it's like...uh...damn." ~~Me

just like Kufi's, Mehndi tattoos, body piercing, and the Green Party.

It just like the backpack hip hop crowd that gets hated on. They always want to give their opinion on what you take in.

"I can't believe you're eating that"

And most of them secretly lust for meat, hence veggie burgers and tofu dogs. Why deny yourself?

These burlap sack wearing, patchouli smelling, birkenstock granola folks get me aggravated.

There are only a couple of good reasons to not eat meat

- health - from the raw stats on what most meat does to your body, to you don't really know what they put in it. Hell going veggie to lose weight is admirable in my book
- culture - Your Rasta or Hindu

anything else is suspect.

k. orr
damn I feel like a steak

That's a generalization... those cats, true, are on some trendy shit. But for those that are truly vegetarian/vegan, it's an insult to be lumped in with those people.

As far as your tofu dog, veggie burger comment goes, most vegetarians are converts, and are therefore facing about twenty years of programming that they need to eat a meal based around meat, so that's why meat substitutes exist. It's a process to get yourself off of something you've been eating since birth... I can say that shortly after becoming vegetarian, I was damn near repulsed by the smell of meat and most definately by the appearance of it.

One of the reasons I getted pissed off at vegetarians is because they say things like what you said:

>I was damn near
>repulsed by the smell of
>meat and most definately by
>the appearance of it.

When you say something I enjoy is repulsive, then in a sense, you're saying something about me as well. I'm not saying you can't have those feelings, but vegetarians often seem to express these feelings in a tone of superiority or looking down up meat eaters.

You could do yourself a favor by not taking remarks of others personally. If you find yourself angered by such a comment, it only serves to prove that you yourself are challenged in your thoughts that you do enjoy it. If you enjoyed sex, and someone said they found it repulsive, I doubt you would think twice... but the fact that the nature of meat is not something pleasant makes a comment like mine hit home for you.

this is a perfect example of why folks hate vegetarians.

k. orr

yeah, making sense of an arguement is a great way to make people hate on you.

If someone said they found the person I have sex with repulsive
or found the thought of having sex with that person repulsive, then I'd definitely be pissed off.

> If you enjoyed sex,
>and someone said they found
>it repulsive, I doubt you
>would think twice... but the
>fact that the nature of
>meat is not something pleasant
>makes a comment like mine
>hit home for you.

I don't buy this "its trendy" bullshit. Do not fucking compare me to some 15 year old, backpack wearin' motherfuker because I choose not to eat meat.

I became vegetarian becasue I became Buddhist. Its all about karma. When you do something, the affects of that reflect back onto you. And I don't mean any magic or cosmic bullshit. Im talking about simple stuff. When you KILL something you are harming another being. That is reflected back onto you and you are going to suffer. I don't mean that you are going to get cancer because god is going to strike you down or whatever. I am saying that you will be unhappy becasue you are KILLING. You will search and search for a reason for your suffering, but until you stop killing and stop doing wrong by other beings, you cannot be relieved of that suffering.

So, its a personal choice. You can KILL all you want, or you can stop and achieve some real happiness. Thats why I'm vegan.

Also, to top it off is the fact that meat is BAD for you. You can get just as much protein from tofu as beef, but with about 90% less fat.

And meat is fucking dirty. The things they do to these animals and the shit they do to process it is disgusting. We remove ourselves from the cycle by wrapping it in plastic and making it look clean. Its not. Read "The Jungle" and then decide if you want to put that shit into your body.

One more point: people always talk about breaking away from your parents and traditions when they do things you think are wrong. Say your parents are racist and you never question it because thats how you were raised. I'm gonna say that you are a piece of shit! So, your parents eat meat and you have never questioned it. How are you different from the hick motherfucker whose parents are in the KKK? Not at all. Read. Learn about meat. Make the decision for yourself and see. If you can learn about the shit they do to animals and look me in the face and say that it is ok and you are going to eat it I will say, "fine, eat it". Until then, all of your trendy bullshit can suck my dick.


Sorry about the inflamatory tone, this is something I feel very strongly about and the image of those backpack punks at the show last week has gotten me all heated.

Russell
Austin, TX

didn't korr make a disclaimer that it's not trendy if it's religion????

I really should, but I won't.

If you're doing it for religious reasons fine.

Doesn't stop the fact that vegetarianism is very trendy, particulary here in this town.

k. orr
backpacker advocate

Hotep

Physical, Mental and Spiritual Health is the ONLY irrefutable reason for not Eating meat.

Animal Rights is secondary in my book. (although Animal Rights Activists always provide me with enjoyable hours of laughter :-))

PEace
Solarus


"Activism is the practice of using an internal, self-determining source of power to live one's life and/or enact some sort of change. Power is the ability to define reality, while self-determination is to decide or define one's self. Therefore activism, is not simply something done to right some wrong or to fight some cause but rather it is a way of life. Activism is the way of life where one can define self and change anything that may impede or control the reality that one chooses to live."-Solarus

>Physical, Mental and Spiritual Health is
>the ONLY irrefutable reason for
>not Eating meat.


Agreed. Though part of my personal mental health comes from knowing that I'm not participating in the meat industry (what with the labor issues, environmental impact, and, yes animal rights).


Alek
________________________________
"Say some shit that suprise me...
My face don't change."

...refer to the whole animal-rights thing as side benefits. The enemy of my enemy is my ally.

==
densetsu no hitokiri, himura battousai.

one of the symptoms of an approaching nervous breakdown is the belief that one's work is terribly important. - bertrand russell

http://cookie.bored.org/

Thanks for reading. I love you.

"y'all funny...like that time on looney tunes when the sheep and the coyote clocked out for the day and just chilled.
airybody will be back at each other w/ the guns an knives tomorrow but this was peace." - poetx

"What are you but my reflection, who am I to judge or strike you down?" - MJK

In Rotation:
Radiohead - The Bends
4Hero - Two Pages
A Perfect Circle - Mer De Noms
Jay Dee - Welcome To Detroit
Sade - Lovers Rock
Fishbone - Truth And Soul

>Thanks for reading. I love you.
>
>
>"y'all funny...like that time on looney
>tunes when the sheep and
>the coyote clocked out for
>the day and just chilled.

I love that cartoon! As a non-meat eater, I also love the dixie one where the yankee dog wants to oust the confederate's dog. He comes to the confederate guy dressed in a confederate uniform, describes a battle with yankees and before he fake dies he salutes and says:"Chitlins forever, yall" That shit cracks me up!!!!
>
>airybody will be back at each
>other w/ the guns an
>knives tomorrow but this was
>peace." - poetx
>
>"What are you but my reflection,
>who am I to judge
>or strike you down?" -
>MJK
>
>In Rotation:
>Radiohead - The Bends
>4Hero - Two Pages
>A Perfect Circle - Mer De
>Noms
>Jay Dee - Welcome To Detroit
>
>Sade - Lovers Rock
>Fishbone - Truth And Soul

"The beef industry has contributed to more American deaths than all the wars of this century, all natural disasters, and all automobile accidents combined. If beef is your idea of `real food for real people,' you'd better live real close to a real good hospital."
--Neal D. Barnard, M.D., President, Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine, Washington, D.C.


"When we kill the animals to eat them, they end up killing us because their flesh, which contains cholesterol and saturated fat, was never intended for human beings."
--William C. Roberts, M.D., editor of The American Journal of Cardiology


"All red meat contains saturated fat. There is no such thing as truly lean meat. Trimming away the edge ring of fat around a steak really does not lower the fat content significantly. People who have red meat (trimmed or untrimmed) as a regular feature of their diets suffer in far greater numbers from heart attacks and strokes."
--Michael Klaper, M.D., Medical Director, EarthSave Foundation, Santa Cruz, California


"If you step back and look at the data, the optimum amount of red meat you eat should be zero."
--Walter Willett, M.D., of Brigham and Women's Hospital, director of a study that found a close correlation between red meat consumption and colon cancer.


"Usually, the first thing a country does in the course of economic development is to introduce a lot of livestock. Our data are showing that this is not a very smart move and the Chinese are listening. They are realizing that animal-based agriculture is not the way to go.... We are basically a vegetarian species and should be eating a wide variety of plant food and minimizing our intake of animal foods.... "Once people start introducing animal products into their diet, that's when the mischief starts."
--T. Colin Campbell, Ph.D., of Cornell University, director of a study of 6,500 Chinese that found a close correlation between meat consumption and the incidence of heart disease and cancer.

>"The beef industry has contributed to
>more American deaths than all
>the wars of this century,
>all natural disasters, and all
>automobile accidents combined. If beef
>is your idea of `real
>food for real people,' you'd
>better live real close to
>a real good hospital."
>--Neal D. Barnard, M.D., President, Physicians
>Committee for Responsible Medicine, Washington,
>D.C.

toooooo funny!

L.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Homer: Do you wanna change your name to Homer, Jr? All the kids can call you HoJo!
Bart: uhh...I'll get back to you...

"my mama said/a lady ain't what she wears/but what she knows"~~India Arie

"Ignorance: The Verbal Airborne Disease" (c) my friend Ty

"writer's block is a...I mean, it's like...uh...damn." ~~Me

I was a vegetarian for about 2 years. This was because I refused to eat the meat of an animal that is tortured the way that they are by the average "farm." Places that keep animals locked up most of their lives, seperate them from their offspring, and when they do slaughter the animal they do it in very painful ways. I've seen footage of animals being hung by their backs and being cut open while still alive.

I began eating meat again when I accepted Islam. The farm that we (the local Muslim community) get our meat from allows the animals to roam around and live a natural life. Also, the Islamic way of slaughtering an animal is the most painless way to do it. It is done by slicing the neck at the arteries in the neck. This instantly makes the animal go unconscious while the blood drains, which makes the meat more beneficial.

I still drink soy milk and eat meatless "buffalo wings" and boca burgers though! Don't hate without trying them!

Yusuf Abdus-Salaam

>I was a vegetarian for about
>2 years. This was because
>I refused to eat the
>meat of an animal that
>is tortured the way that
>they are by the average
>"farm." Places that keep animals
>locked up most of their
>lives, seperate them from their
>offspring, and when they do
>slaughter the animal they do
>it in very painful ways.
>I've seen footage of animals
>being hung by their backs
>and being cut open while
>still alive.
>
>I began eating meat again when
>I accepted Islam. The farm
>that we (the local Muslim
>community) get our meat from
>allows the animals to roam
>around and live a natural
>life. Also, the Islamic way
>of slaughtering an animal is
>the most painless way to
>do it. It is done
>by slicing the neck at
>the arteries in the neck.
>This instantly makes the animal
>go unconscious while the blood
>drains, which makes the meat
>more beneficial.
>
>I still drink soy milk and
>eat meatless "buffalo wings" and
>boca burgers though! Don't hate
>without trying them!
>
>Yusuf Abdus-Salaam

So you essentially believe that killing an animal is alright, just as long as there is a minimal amount of suffering? This would particularly make sense with you're only drinking soy milk because the dairy industry causes about the most suffering possible. Is this a common belief among Muslims? These are two different reasons for so called animal rights, one: to not kill, and two: to not cause suffering. I myself am vegan because I don't want to do either. I am just curious what made you decide that the suffering was bad but the killing was ok? I hope I dont sound like I am attacking because I dont intend to.

No, you made some assumptions there. I drink soy milk because it is the same animal that is being tortured by the meat industry that is giving the milk. (See my post above.) Muslims believe that the milk of cows is a blessing, and I believe this too. Milk of animals provides benefits, if it is consumed in a balance way just like meat. If too much milk is consumed then it becomes unhealthy. Just as if too much fruit, vegetables, or grains are consumed. Animals have rights in Islam. Muslims do not have the same view that mankind has dominion or ownership over animals, or any creation for that matter. Only Allah is the Owner. Islam teaches a view of participation with nature. This includes being able to use animals for purposes such as traveling, protection of land and home, guides for the blind, farming, and for food. This isn't dominion, this is participation, because the animals have rights over man. They have the right to be treated with kindness and compassion and not to be abused or tortured. If it was a dominion relationship, then the animals would have no rights and it would not be participatory. Also, it is believed by Muslims that on the Day of Judgement an animal that is harmed, mistreated, or killed for an unjust reason by someone will testify against that person before Allah.

You must understand that suffering is a part of life. It is just as much a law of the universe as gravity. The opposite of suffering is of course pleasure and this is the balance of this temporary life. Whether or not you, or the entire human population, is Vegan, things will still suffer.

Read my post that is above in this subject where I talk about compassion.

Yusuf Abdus-Salaam

>No, you made some assumptions there.
>I drink soy milk because
>it is the same animal
>that is being tortured by
>the meat industry that is
>giving the milk. (See my
>post above.) Muslims believe that
>the milk of cows is
>a blessing, and I believe
>this too. Milk of animals
>provides benefits, if it is
>consumed in a balance way
>just like meat. If too
>much milk is consumed then
>it becomes unhealthy. Just as
>if too much fruit, vegetables,
>or grains are consumed. Animals
>have rights in Islam. Muslims
>do not have the same
>view that mankind has dominion
>or ownership over animals, or
>any creation for that matter.
>Only Allah is the Owner.
>Islam teaches a view of
>participation with nature. This includes
>being able to use animals
>for purposes such as traveling,
>protection of land and home,
>guides for the blind, farming,
>and for food. This isn't
>dominion, this is participation, because
>the animals have rights over
>man. They have the right
>to be treated with kindness
>and compassion and not to
>be abused or tortured. If
>it was a dominion relationship,
>then the animals would have
>no rights and it would
>not be participatory. Also, it
>is believed by Muslims that
>on the Day of Judgement
>an animal that is harmed,
>mistreated, or killed for an
>unjust reason by someone will
>testify against that person before
>Allah.
>
>You must understand that suffering is
>a part of life. It
>is just as much a
>law of the universe as
>gravity. The opposite of suffering
>is of course pleasure and
>this is the balance of
>this temporary life. Whether or
>not you, or the entire
>human population, is Vegan, things
>will still suffer.
>
>Read my post that is above
>in this subject where I
>talk about compassion.
>
>Yusuf Abdus-Salaam

it is certainly the case that suffering is a significant part of life and this must be accepted or else one is being entirely unrealistic, however there is that suffering that is inevitable, say a close friend or family member is hit by a bus, and there is suffering that is knowlingly caused, the first of these must be accepted and dealt with, however the second can be prevented, i myself have recently become buddhist, but i was vegan before i became buddhist (its respect for animals is part of what attracted me), once again, i do not mean to attack, esp religious beliefs, just want to open up a dialogue
peace

There are many Buddhists that actually eat meat. They are mostly of the Mahayana school of thought.

>There are many Buddhists that actually
>eat meat. They are mostly
>of the Mahayana school of
>thought.

yeah i think that is because those are mostly monks who eat whatever is offered to them, and they will eat meat as long as they dont think it was specifically killed for them

vegitarians who think the slaughter of animals is wrong also refrain from using and enjoying products that come from those slaughtered animals like...

the beat of a drum
a leather belt
leather shoes
bags and purses made with leather
refrain from purchasing/riding in cars with leather interiors

etc.

:-)

I am a vegetarian. I have a meat-eating co-worker who always likes to ask me what I am eating. Then, when I tell him he acts disgusted. It's amusing to me because every other day this guy walks around holding his stomach complaining about the food he just ate. He stands over me play-retching when I enjoy my hummous and falafels but he's truly nauseous when he eats his food. Go figure!

Occassionally, I'll encounter someone who acts like this guy but I don't feel like they resent me. They're curious and like to make ignorant comments because they can't understand why someone would not want to eat meat. Personally, I wish they would mind their own business. I do what I want.

I guess I don't eat meat for health reasons. When I was a teenager I stopped eating pork for political reasons and then I stopped eating red meat and then chicken...Ten years later I have never had high-blood pressure or high cholesterol levels. I work out 3x a week but I am still "thick". I think not eating meat has helped me be a healthier person.

Black women in my family suffer from everything from high-blood pressure to obesity to heart problems...I had to take control of my life and not eating meat was a first step.

"Know thyself"

"Let your conduct be without covetousness; be content with such things as you have. For He Himself has said, "I will never leave you or forsake you". So we may boldly say, "The Lord is my helper, I will not fear. What can man do to me?"
-- Hebrews 13:5,6

"There is a difference between knowing the path and walking the path"
--Morpheus in "The Matrix"

"It's our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities"- Dumbledore to Harry Potter "Chamber of Secrets"

Wow. After reading some of the stuff people posted about this topic, I can understand why this world is so fucked up. What's so difficult to understand? There are billions of animals in this world who are suffering. Why are they suffering? Because of humans. No questions here. It was humans who decided they were the "rulers" of this world, humans who decided to domesticate animals and use them as their servants, humans who confine animals to deplorable living conditions before they are murdered, humans who pollute the air.... and I could go on and on. Now when some humans (unfortunately a very small number worldwide), decide that it's time to reverse this horrible cycle we started so many years ago, other humans cop and attitude. Are you the same people who are throwing your McDonald's trash out of your car window while speeding down the highway? The same people who make the comment, "What's one more piece of trash gonna do?" or "Animals don't have feelings"? Well it's about time everybody started taking responsibility for their part in turning this once beautiful earth into a big pile of shit. Get off your lazy asses and pick up some trash. Ride your bike or take public transportation to work instead of driving. Do some rescue work in your area and help get stray animals off the street. Or if you have the guts, you could try becoming a vegan.

animal farm,
by George Orwell.

ok,....seven words,.......
of course, this could never happen, but.......

ok, ok,....a bunch of sentences,.......

what would happen if man didnot use certain animals for food.
we wouldnt have any place to live.
the animals would dominate the land.

and we cant have that, now can we?
your back yard full of deer and rabbit eating up a garden your trying to grow!
sheep taking up all the grasslands, providing you with no place to live!
wouldnt have no straw to build them nice brick homes with, gotta feed them horses!
the europeans who founded this country would have floated they behinds right back to where they came from when they came to "the home, where the buffalos rome...".

certain animals were created for us to use as food and to get food from.

other animals were left to be alone, to deal with other animals in the food chain.

so erybody,....
take ya tims off,
take ya leather jackets off,
take ya shoes off,
take ya watches off,
take ya car seats out,
take ya overcoat off,
take ya wigs off,
take ya weaves off,
get rid of ya pianos,
take ya belts off,
etc,.......

work with nature, not against it.

vegan is cool, but doing what is natural cooler.


Allah says about Truth and Falsehood in The Qur'an:
21:18 Nay! We hurl The Truth against falsehood, and it knocks out it's brain, and behold, falsehood perishes! Ah! woe be to you for the false things you ascribe.

Allah says about Man in The Qur'an:
10:12 When trouble toucheth a man, He crieth unto Us (in all postures)- lying down on his side, or sitting, or standing. But when We have solved his trouble, he passeth on his way as if he had never cried to Us for a trouble that touched him! thus do the deeds of transgressors seem fair in their eyes!
10:19 Mankind was but one nation, but differed (later). Had it not been for a word that went forth before from thy Lord, their differences would have been settled between them.
10:22 He it is Who enableth you to traverse through land and sea; so that ye even board ships;- they sail with them with a favourable wind, and they rejoice thereat; then comes a stormy wind and the waves come to them from all sides, and they think they are being overwhelmed: they cry unto Allah, sincerely offering (their) duty unto Him saying, "If thou dost deliver us from this, we shall truly show our gratitude!"
10:23 But when he delivereth them, behold! they transgress insolently through the earth in defiance of right! O mankind! your insolence is against your own souls,- an enjoyment of the life of the present: in the end, to Us is your return, and We shall show you the truth of all that ye did.

subhakallahumma wabihamdika ashhadu anla ilaha illa anta astaghfiruka wa attuubu ilaika

>animal farm,
>by George Orwell.
>
>ok,....seven words,.......
>of course, this could never happen,
>but.......
>
>ok, ok,....a bunch of sentences,.......
>

>what would happen if man didnot
>use certain animals for food.
>
>we wouldnt have any place to
>live.
>the animals would dominate the land.

This doesn't make sense AT ALL, since most of the meat eaten by large societies is meat from raised DOMESTICATED ANIMALS.




>certain animals were created for us
>to use as food and
>to get food from.
>

Which ones?

>other animals were left to be
>alone, to deal with other
>animals in the food chain.
>

Which ones?

>
>so erybody,....
>take ya tims off,
>take ya leather jackets off,
>take ya shoes off,
>take ya watches off,
>take ya car seats out,
>take ya overcoat off,
>take ya wigs off,
>take ya weaves off,
>get rid of ya pianos,
>take ya belts off,
>etc,.......
>
>work with nature, not against it.
>

VEGAN does NOT equal ANIMAL RIGHTS ACTIVISTS. More importantly, not eating meat centers on maintaining optimal physical, mental and spiritual health.

>
>vegan is cool, but doing what
>is natural cooler.
>

This statement makes NO SENSE. I don't have the time to show how ridiculous it is.

Peace
Solarus

"Activism is the practice of using an internal, self-determining source of power to live one's life and/or enact some sort of change. Power is the ability to define reality, while self-determination is to decide or define one's self. Therefore activism, is not simply something done to right some wrong or to fight some cause but rather it is a way of life. Activism is the way of life where one can define self and change anything that may impede or control the reality that one chooses to live."-Solarus

Blacks did'nt invent automobiles which pollute the air or plastics that suffocate the earth.How many animal species have been hunted into extinction by Africans?I think you should exclude some people from your beef wit the humans.

man, I live in West Philly... Black people do their share to pollute and not keep this planet habitable, ok? We're all in this together... no outs.

I got the following breakdown out of this small book called, "What's Wrong with Eating Meat?", written by Vistara Parham.

Carnivores first.

Meat Eater:

1) No claws

2) no pores on skin;perspires through tongue to cool body

3) sharp, pointed front teeth to tear flesh

4) small salivary glands in the mouth (not needed to pre-digest
grains and fruits)

5) acid saliva; no enzyme ptyalin to pre-digest grains

6) no flat molar teeth to to grind food

7) much strong hydro-chloric acid in stomach to digest tough
animal muscle, bone, etc.

8) intestinal tract only 3 times body length so rapidly decaying meat can pass out of body quickly.

Now let's take a look at us.

Human Being:

1) No claws

2) perspires through millions of pores on skin

3) no sharp, pointed front teeth


4) well-developed salivary glands, needed to pre-digest grains

5) alkaline saliva; much ptyalind to pre-digest grains

6) flat, back molar teeth to grind food

7) stomach acid 20 times less strong than meat-eaters

8) intestinal tract 12 times body length; fruits do not decay as
rapidly so can pass more slowly through the body.


I've been a vegetarian for almost 10 years. It's the way of our glorious ancestors. Meal meat-eating is Cave Culture.































"Truth will make you depart from that which you say you believe." - NaSheed Fakhrid-Deen

"...And we are loved for being ignorant and hated if we are militant..." - Alafia Pudim of the Last Poets.

"The first generation of Negroes were INTIMIDATED BY white supremacy.
The second generation of Negroes WORSHIPPED white supremacy.
The new generation of Negroes IS white supremacy." - "Evolution" by Amiri Baraka

Under Meat eaters, the first point should state "Has claws". I should've proof read this better

>I got the following breakdown out
>of this small book called,
>"What's Wrong with Eating Meat?",
>written by Vistara Parham.
>
>Carnivores first.
>
>Meat Eater:
>
>1) No claws
>
>2) no pores on skin;perspires through
>tongue to cool body
>
>3) sharp, pointed front teeth to
>tear flesh
>
>4) small salivary glands in the
>mouth (not needed to pre-digest
>
>grains and fruits)
>
>5) acid saliva; no enzyme ptyalin
>to pre-digest grains
>
>6) no flat molar teeth to
>to grind food
>
>7) much strong hydro-chloric acid in
>stomach to digest tough
>animal muscle, bone, etc.
>
>8) intestinal tract only 3
>times body length so rapidly
>decaying meat can pass out
>of body quickly.
>
>Now let's take a look at
>us.
>
>Human Being:
>
>1) No claws
>
>2) perspires through millions of pores
>on skin
>
>3) no sharp, pointed front
>teeth
>
>
>4) well-developed salivary glands, needed to
>pre-digest grains
>
>5) alkaline saliva; much ptyalind to
>pre-digest grains
>
>6) flat, back molar teeth to
>grind food
>
>7) stomach acid 20 times
>less strong than meat-eaters
>
>8) intestinal tract 12 times body
>length; fruits do not decay
>as
>rapidly so can pass more slowly
>through the body.
>
>
>I've been a vegetarian for almost
>10 years. It's the
>way of our glorious ancestors.
> Meal meat-eating is Cave
>Culture.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>"Truth will make you depart from
>that which you say you
>believe." - NaSheed Fakhrid-Deen
>
>"...And we are loved for being
>ignorant and hated if we
>are militant..." - Alafia Pudim
>of the Last Poets.
>
>"The first generation of Negroes were
>INTIMIDATED BY white supremacy.
>The second generation of Negroes WORSHIPPED
>white supremacy.
>The new generation of Negroes IS
>white supremacy." - "Evolution"
>by Amiri Baraka


"Truth will make you depart from that which you say you believe." - NaSheed Fakhrid-Deen

"...And we are loved for being ignorant and hated if we are militant..." - Alafia Pudim of the Last Poets.

"The first generation of Negroes were INTIMIDATED BY white supremacy.
The second generation of Negroes WORSHIPPED white supremacy.
The new generation of Negroes IS white supremacy." - "Evolution" by Amiri Baraka

This argument is pretty old and there's some errors to it.

First of all, humans don't eat raw meat like carnivorous animals do so it's not really the same comparison.

Second, you should take a step back and look at things from a wider point of view. There's what, 6 Billion people on this planet. Most eat meat. You're telling me all of these people are wrong?

Third, you cannot survive off of only fruits, vegetables, and grain in certain climates. Try going to the desert, mountainous, or any other rough terrain and not consume any animal products. It just doesn't work that way, and man is too rational to make himself suffer and eventually die from not eating any animals in these areas.

It's a little easy to preach this message being in an area with a nice roof over your head and the ability to get a wide variety of food from the local supermarket or grocery store, but it's not like that everywhere in the world.

>This argument is pretty old and
>there's some errors to it.
>
Just because an argument is old, doesn't mean that by default it's untrue or less factual. Where are the errors? Point them out specifically.
>
>First of all, humans don't eat
>raw meat like carnivorous animals
>do so it's not really
>the same comparison.
>

Carnivores eat meat raw because their mouths and bodies are made to consume meat raw. When meat is raw, it has most of it's nutrients in it. Cooking meat (and fruits and vegetables for that matter) kills most of the nutrients in it and kills all of the enzymes in it. If you don't believe me, why is it that you think that some folks eat their steaks rare? Because cooking it all the way through destroys all of the vitamins and nutrients in it. But humans were NEVER designed to eat meat anyway so it's not meant for us to get nutrients through meat, be it rare/raw or well done.

We may be able to eat meat and live for awhile but that doesn't mean it was meant for us to eat it. You can smoke crack for years before you eventually die from the consumption of this poison. Does that make it wise for us to smoke crack just because it doesn't kill you immediately??!? Hell No!!! Similarly, it doesn't make it any more wise for us to consume meat just because it doesn't kill us immediately. Your body wasn't made to consume crack; and it wasn't made to consume meat either.

Second, you should take a step
>back and look at things
> from a wider point
>of view. There's what, 6
>Billion people on this planet.
>Most eat meat. You're telling
>me all of these people
>are wrong?
>
I am not saying that all of these people are wrong (I'm TRYING not to judge). I am saying that their human bodies ARE NOT designed to digest and/or process meat, no matter how many of them are eating it or how long they've been eating it.

>Third, you cannot survive off of
>only fruits, vegetables, and grain
>in certain climates. Try going
>to the desert, mountainous, or
>any other rough terrain and
>not consume any animal products.
>It just doesn't work that
>way, and man is too
>rational to make himself suffer
>and eventually die from not
>eating any animals in these
>areas.
>
>It's a little easy to preach
>this message being in an
>area with a nice roof
>over your head and the
>ability to get a wide
>variety of food from the
>local supermarket or grocery store,
>but it's not like that
>everywhere in the world.

This is why I stated that Meal Meat Eating is Cave Culture. In Llaila O. Afrika's book, "Afican Holistic Health", he states:

"Historically, the eating of dead animal corpses in African cultures was a part of ceremonies, religious rites or A SUBSTITUTE IN CASES WHERE NO OTHER PRIMARY FOOD SUPPLY EXISTED.* On the other hand, flesh eating in European culture was primarily caused by the Ice Age- the absence of abundant vegetation and cultural preferences."

*(caps added for my own emphasis)

When the descendants of the caves of Europe migrated to this land, they brought their culture of meat eating with them and later forced it on us.

In Africa, we didn't have to eat meat like Europeans did because Africa was (and is) a very fertile, resourceful, and productive land. That's what the whole development of agriculture was about.

And really, we don't have the "excuse" of being climatically forced to eat animal flesh because of harsh weather, barren land, or other reasons. In America, we are fortunate enough to have plenty of fruits, vegetables, other plants, and grains for consumption.

Really, if we got rid of these cattle factories and used that land (that's currently used to raise cattle) to cultivate plants and grains, we could feed the world three times over.

Argue it as much as you like, but eating meat is STILL Cave Culture and the human body is STILL NOT designed for the consumption of dead animal corpses, no matter how many people do it.



"Truth will make you depart from that which you say you believe." - NaSheed Fakhrid-Deen

"...And we are loved for being ignorant and hated if we are militant..." - Alafia Pudim of the Last Poets.

"The first generation of Negroes were INTIMIDATED BY white supremacy.
The second generation of Negroes WORSHIPPED white supremacy.
The new generation of Negroes IS white supremacy." - "Evolution" by Amiri Baraka

That's a bit of silly racism towards Europeans. All of Africa is fertile? Last time I check most of Egypt and some of Ancient Nubia is desert. Maybe you're calling the highly appreciated Ancient Egyptian and Nubian civilization a "cave culture" . .?

The fact is that the only reason you're able to talk this freely about food is because it is so readily available for you to eat. This is only a recent thing. It has nothing to do with Europeans forcing the idea of eating meat on other people or any other silly racist idea. Be realistic.

>That's a bit of silly racism
>towards Europeans. All of Africa
>is fertile? Last time I
>check most of Egypt and
>some of Ancient Nubia is
>desert. Maybe you're calling the
>highly appreciated Ancient Egyptian and
>Nubian civilization a "cave culture"
>. .?


during those times, the sahara was not a desert, it was grassland...just for ya'lls info

>
>The fact is that the only
>reason you're able to talk
>this freely about food is
>because it is so readily
>available for you to eat.
>This is only a recent
>thing. It has nothing to
>do with Europeans forcing the
>idea of eating meat on
>other people or any other
>silly racist idea. Be realistic.


also, their are desert cultures that don't eat meat and survive on figs and other such highly nutritious foods, for spiritual as well as health reasons. (i.e. dead animal vibrations)
>


"if you God then save your own, don't mentally enslave your own" - Ceelo

>That's a bit of silly racism
>towards Europeans. All of Africa
>is fertile? Last time I
>check most of Egypt and
>some of Ancient Nubia is
>desert. Maybe you're calling the
>highly appreciated Ancient Egyptian and
>Nubian civilization a "cave culture"
>. .?
>
Yusuf

Put the pork chop down and read the quote more closely. The quote stated "HISTORICALLY, the eating of dead animal corpses in African cultures was a part of cermonies, religious rites or A SUBSTITUTE IN CASES WHERE NO OTHER PRIMARY FOOD SUPPLY EXISTED."*
*(caps added for emphasis).

The Nile was a very fertile land back in the day along with many other parts of Africa. Read and comprehend things IN CONTEXT. The quote explicitly stated, "HISTORICALLY". Meaning a long time ago.

The quote also stated that some Africans ate meat as a SUBSTITUTE IN CASES WHERE NO OTHER PRIMARY FOOD SUPPLY EXISTED. Meaning, that some Africans ate meat when the land did not supply them with ample enough food.

But, like I said before, whether they ate meat or not and whether Africa was or was not, is or is not a fertile land/continent, human beings are STILL not designed to eat meat. People may do it anyway for a variety of reasons, but that doesn't change the fact that we were not built to process animal flesh.

>The fact is that the only
>reason you're able to talk
>this freely about food is
>because it is so readily
>available for you to eat.
>This is only a recent
>thing. It has nothing to
>do with Europeans forcing the
>idea of eating meat on
>other people or any other
>silly racist idea. Be realistic.
>

You chose to call meat a food; I disagree with that. It is not meant to be food for human beings. I have no problem with you or anyone else eating meat if that's what you want to do. Just don't try to sell to me or to anyone else, while in my presence, that the human body is designed or is built to digest/process meat or that somehow, meat is good for people to eat. If you like it because of it's taste, that's one thing but don't try to convince/mislead others into this idea that meat is good for us. It just ain't so.

There was many things that Europeans passed on/forced upon us when we were kidnapped. Different names, different God (concept of God), different language, different culture, etc... We had no say about what we would accept or not accept.

Historically, most Europeans had to eat meat because, for the most part, Europe is a barren land. It doesn't produce much vegetation.

When they were in the cave, it was a part of their culture to kill animals and eat their flesh for food. This is the way they did things. This became apart of their culture and as such, it was passed down from generation to generation to generation, etc...all the way down to the slave holders of our great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great grandparents.

As "masters" over our ancestors, they dictated much of our existence. One of the other things that they forced on us (our ancestors) during slavery (along with diffent names, language, etc.) was this culture of animal flesh eating.

We got it from them. They got it from the days that they were cave dwellers. It was apart of their culture while they were cave dwellers; hence, the word cave culture.

Dispute the facts, Money.

"Truth will make you depart from that which you say you believe." - NaSheed Fakhrid-Deen

"...And we are loved for being ignorant and hated if we are militant..." - Alafia Pudim of the Last Poets.

"The first generation of Negroes were INTIMIDATED BY white supremacy.
The second generation of Negroes WORSHIPPED white supremacy.
The new generation of Negroes IS white supremacy." - "Evolution" by Amiri Baraka

Still silly.

Go over to Africa right now and tell the people there these "facts" and you'll get laughed at. Most people in other parts of the world don't have enough time to sit and debate "is it okay for me to eat this animal?" "am i not being a kind and compassionate person?" "is my body designed to digest meat?" because they work a lot harder than the average American to get by everyday in life. You have a little free time so you get picky with what you eat and then try to push it on the entire world not realizing most don't have it as good as you and aren't going to change their diet just because you read a few books about vegetarianism and African history, and visited PETA's website. Meat kills? I know of people that have lived past 100 and ate meat. But they ate it the proper way - in moderation. Too much of anything is bad, including vegetarian propaganda.

>Still silly.
>
>Go over to Africa right now
>and tell the people there
>these "facts" and you'll get
>laughed at. Most people in
>other parts of the world
>don't have enough time to
>sit and debate "is it
>okay for me to eat
>this animal?" "am i not
>being a kind and compassionate
>person?" "is my body designed
>to digest meat?" because they
>work a lot harder than
>the average American to get
>by everyday in life. You
>have a little free time
>so you get picky with
>what you eat and then
>try to push it on
>the entire world not
>realizing most don't have it
>as good as you and
>aren't going to change their
>diet just because you read
>a few books about vegetarianism
>and African history, and visited
>PETA's website.

You still missed my point. Whether these modern day Africans laugh at me for my suggestions or "fact" statements, whether they have time to debate the moral, health, or other issues involved when eating meat, or whether they have to work harder to get by in life, or whatever else, my point remains the same.

HUMAN BEINGS ARE NOT MADE TO DIGEST ANIMAL FLESH!! Just because you eat meat because you the like the taste of it; or because you have no other food source available; or just because this is the way yo mama dem raised you, it doesn't change the fact that you, as a human being, was not designed to eat meat.

As I stated before, you can eat it for whatever reason you want to eat it, and it really doesn't matter to me. Just don't try to con folks into believing that somehow, meat eating is healthy.



Meat kills? I
>know of people that have
>lived past 100 and ate
>meat. But they ate it
>the proper way - in
>moderation. Too much of anything
>is bad, including vegetarian propaganda.
>
It's believable that you know some people who ate meat all of their lives and lived past 100. I can believe that. But just imagine how much longer they could've lived had they stayed off of the animal flesh.

I know some people who have lived very long lives, and they had eaten meat all of their lives. I gotta say that the quality of life for most of these folks was not the best in the world. Suffering their last days with high blood pressue and cholestorol, diabetes, arthritis and other diseases that can often be linked to meat eating. It did/does not have to be that way.

Of course, eating meat in moderation is better than being a gluttonous meat eater, but not eating it at all is even better.





"Truth will make you depart from that which you say you believe." - NaSheed Fakhrid-Deen

"...And we are loved for being ignorant and hated if we are militant..." - Alafia Pudim of the Last Poets.

"The first generation of Negroes were INTIMIDATED BY white supremacy.
The second generation of Negroes WORSHIPPED white supremacy.
The new generation of Negroes IS white supremacy." - "Evolution" by Amiri Baraka

Why can't people understand this?

>It's believable that you know some
>people who ate meat all
>of their lives and lived
>past 100. I can
>believe that. But just
>imagine how much longer they
>could've lived had they stayed
>off of the animal flesh.

AND this:

> Suffering their last days
>with high blood pressue and
>cholestorol, diabetes, arthritis and other
>diseases that can often be
>linked to meat eating.
>It did/does not have to
>be that way.


"We all gonna die sometime."

Yeah but dying (living) in unbearable pain is a good thing nor necessary.

Wake up and quit coming with unfounded excuses.
PEace

Solarus

"Activism is the practice of using an internal, self-determining source of power to live one's life and/or enact some sort of change. Power is the ability to define reality, while self-determination is to decide or define one's self. Therefore activism, is not simply something done to right some wrong or to fight some cause but rather it is a way of life. Activism is the way of life where one can define self and change anything that may impede or control the reality that one chooses to live."-Solarus

I think it all boils down to will power or lack thereof. We all know deep down that eating animal flesh, particularly farm produced, is wrong. Those who lack the will power to stop will take out that anger on vegetarians, who they see as possessing the will they lack. They also make up ridiculous reasons for their continued consumption of flesh (i.e. "We're all gonna die sometime," "The Bible says...," etc.). If we all could maximize our will power, we wouldn't feel guilty about anything, because we wouldn't do it in the first place. Follow me?


JMello

"Those of us who spent time in the agricultural sector and in the heartland, we understand how unfair the death penalty is - the death tax is."

"Si, I'm very concerned about the amount of acreage in cultivation for the growth of cocoa leaves."

"...it's about past 7 here, so we're actually in different timelines."

"I am mindful not only of preserving executive powers for myself, but my predecessors, as well. And that's why I made the decision."

"I'm about to name my brother the ambassador to Chad."

"They don't seem to be flocking in right now, but it is dove season in Texas. I'm a hunter and if I decide to shoot some dove, I'll shoot 'em and eat 'em."

--President-Select George W. Bush--

This isn't very good scientific support for the claim that humans are not physiologically designed for meat eating. The reason being is that you're comparing physiological traits between different species but you're not examining as to whether there are other body parts in humans that fulfill the functions of those parts found solely in the typically meat eating animal.

For example:
Yes humans don't have claws. However, they have natural physiological traits such as ingenuity, thinking skills, and motor skills that don't necessitate their lack of claws. That is, humans can make knives therefore not needing claws, and thereby leaving our hands more able to be used for skilled, precision-necessary activities.

Secondly, there are other animals that also don't share these "meat eating traits" such as certain fish.

Thirdly, humans are not carnivores but rather omnivores. It wouldn't make physiological sense for humans to have the same traits as animals that solely eat meat.


>I got the following breakdown out
>of this small book called,
>"What's Wrong with Eating Meat?",
>written by Vistara Parham.
>
>Carnivores first.
>
>Meat Eater:
>
>1) No claws
>
>2) no pores on skin;perspires through
>tongue to cool body
>
>3) sharp, pointed front teeth to
>tear flesh
>
>4) small salivary glands in the
>mouth (not needed to pre-digest
>
>grains and fruits)
>
>5) acid saliva; no enzyme ptyalin
>to pre-digest grains
>
>6) no flat molar teeth to
>to grind food
>
>7) much strong hydro-chloric acid in
>stomach to digest tough
>animal muscle, bone, etc.
>
>8) intestinal tract only 3
>times body length so rapidly
>decaying meat can pass out
>of body quickly.
>
>Now let's take a look at
>us.
>
>Human Being:
>
>1) No claws
>
>2) perspires through millions of pores
>on skin
>
>3) no sharp, pointed front
>teeth
>
>
>4) well-developed salivary glands, needed to
>pre-digest grains
>
>5) alkaline saliva; much ptyalind to
>pre-digest grains
>
>6) flat, back molar teeth to
>grind food
>
>7) stomach acid 20 times
>less strong than meat-eaters
>
>8) intestinal tract 12 times body
>length; fruits do not decay
>as
>rapidly so can pass more slowly
>through the body.
>
>
>I've been a vegetarian for almost
>10 years. It's the
>way of our glorious ancestors.
> Meal meat-eating is Cave
>Culture.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>"Truth will make you depart from
>that which you say you
>believe." - NaSheed Fakhrid-Deen
>
>"...And we are loved for being
>ignorant and hated if we
>are militant..." - Alafia Pudim
>of the Last Poets.
>
>"The first generation of Negroes were
>INTIMIDATED BY white supremacy.
>The second generation of Negroes WORSHIPPED
>white supremacy.
>The new generation of Negroes IS
>white supremacy." - "Evolution"
>by Amiri Baraka

>This isn't very good scientific support
>for the claim that humans
>are not physiologically designed for
>meat eating. The reason being
>is that you're comparing physiological
>traits between different species but
>you're not examining as to
>whether there are other body
>parts in humans that fulfill
>the functions of those parts
>found solely in the typically
>meat eating animal.
>


>For example:
>Yes humans don't have claws. However,
>they have natural physiological traits
>such as ingenuity, thinking skills,
>and motor skills that don't
>necessitate their lack of claws.
>That is, humans can make
>knives therefore not needing claws,
>and thereby leaving our hands
>more able to be used
>for skilled, precision-necessary activities.
>

People can make knives, but knives (while they do serve a valuable purpose) are no substitute for claws in the claiming that they enable us to eat meat. I mean, men have sex changes to become "women" and vice-versa. Can these people produce off-spring. No, because the process isn't naturally what they were meant to be.

Even with the invention of knives to "replace" claws, we:

1) still don't have the fangs and mouth struture to eat or break down animal flesh. How long do you chew on a bite of steak or pork chop before your teeth breaks up the flesh?

2)Our digestive system is much too delicate and too long for animal flesh to pass through it efficiently.


>Secondly, there are other animals that
>also don't share these "meat
>eating traits" such as certain
>fish.
>

Yes, and some fish are meat eaters, like sharks, peronas (sp?), etc. They do have sharp teeth and I'm sure (though not certain) that their digestive system is made for this type of eating.


>Thirdly, humans are not carnivores but
>rather omnivores. It wouldn't make
>physiological sense for humans to
>have the same traits as
>animals that solely eat meat.
>
>
This is one of the biggest UNTRUTHS that we've been sold on since having a foreign cultures' ways forced upon us. WE ARE NOT OMNIVORES. It's this belief and lifestyle that has us walking around believing that sickness and disease is natural. Health is natural. ALL sickness is unnatural. Even the common cold is Unnatural.

Humans living their lives as omnivores, results in accepting sickness as natural. Anyone who believes this (that humans are omnivores) will surely live their life floating from one illness to another, from a cold, to high blood pressure and high cholestorl, to diabetes, to arthritis, to strokes, to heart attacks, etc...

It doesn't have to be that way.


>
>>I got the following breakdown out
>>of this sm

funny enough i been on thesee boards for some time...my brother used to post here...now my wife posts here...i ignored it for some time but this is too funny...

i used to be on the "i only eat organic grass" kick....through that i lost about 20 lbs...regardless all that is behind me now (al hamdulillah,muslims,feel me)...now i am a pre med major,with quite a few doctors in my family....just one simple biology 101 question...whats the difference between an OMNIVORE, HERBEVORE, AND A CARNIVORE?.....because we eat meat it doesnt make is all meat eaters...and because we eat veggies doesnt make us all veggie eaters...


i remember scrambling to eat sunflower seeds to get some zinc in my system...eating peanuts (and like by products) to get some iron and protien ect....plus all vegan types lack tryptophan and some other amino acid (look it up,i am too tired to remember)...the calorie count of your average veggie diet sucks (look it up)...weather you like it or not, we are omnivores..like your ancestors (none were all veggie)...as a matter of fact for all the "black to africa" crowd, many tribes (incliding the massai and others) rarely eat veggies in the dry season (look it up)....regardless, people dont not cook the meat because it looses nutrients, the do that to keep the meat "tender",because the heat putrifies it (it speeds it up,look it up)....and the 2 week digestion junk for meat is a big hoax...if that was the case the amino acid count of your body wouldnt increase..and you would starve to death.....

on the other hand, americans are guilty of eating TOO MUCH meat...like in the sunnah, the muslims didnt eat meat constantly,and umar ibn al khattab (ra) was cited as saying that it IS and addiction...remember the rasool (saw) loved dates soaked in milk.....older cultures resorted to SHARING at times of slaughter...this practice is rarely dont today because of "new" (heheh) storage methods...dont forget meat (not cigarettes, not school violence, or even drunk drivers) is the #1 killer of americans...the problem isnt that people lost eating veggies.. they just lost HOW TO EAT them...

as far as veggies are concerned they are at times just as dangerous..here is the list......

tape worms in cabbage and carrots...spinich that contains maggots and larvae...oops good old otho and other pesticides..ect.."genetic modification" (god only know what that does...guess we'll know in 30 years..phen phen anyone?)...

then there is the entire issue of how bad soy in general is for you (if i shouldnt give it to my kid, why should i drink it???)...regardless i am not and advocate for either...but in life the general rule is "everything in moderation"...and some never at all.....we cant make everyone vegans (including entire cultures based on meat)....and meat shouldnt be on every plate you eat.....easy

I hope to Allah that you learn something during your time in medical school...

You will eventually learn that the average American male has upwards of ten pounds of undigested red meat in his colon by the time he is forty... because of previously stated facts, this happens because the digestive tracts of humans are too long to handle the strain of eating meat.

As for the whole line of "humans would starve if not for meat" point... bullshit. Humans are by nature nomadic. When the habitat becomes so inclimate that food becomes unavailable, you should pack your shit up and go where it is. Humans FORCED themselves into starvation by staying put an thus having no other option but to eat meat.

Everyone in this country, and the world for that matter, has been brainwashed by a scientific community that is subsidized by big business, whose only concern is to keep selling meat, dairy, and fast food at any cost... we're taught the USDA food pyramid from a very young age... if you look closely, you'll see those posters are co-sponsered by the beef council. We're been taught to live this way for so long, it's difficult for most to break their conditioning that we must eat meat. Maybe seeking the truth about this will open your eyes, or at least see what your esteemed colleagues in the medical community have to say about meat consumption.

>You will eventually learn that the
>average American male has upwards
>of ten pounds of undigested
>red meat in his colon
>by the time he is
>forty... because of previously stated
>facts, this happens because the
>digestive tracts of humans are
>too long to handle the
>strain of eating meat.

This is not because of meat itself. This is because of the drugs they inject into the animals, and the amount of meat that the average American male eats which is an enormous amount.

>As for the whole line of
>"humans would starve if not
>for meat" point... bullshit.
>Humans are by nature nomadic.
> When the habitat becomes
>so inclimate that food becomes
>unavailable, you should pack your
>shit up and go where
>it is. Humans FORCED
>themselves into starvation by staying
>put an thus having no
>other option but to eat
>meat.

That's silly. Millions of people live in habitats where it's reasonable or even necessary to eat meat. Remember: Not everyone lives in America or a society where food is as readily accessable. Try going to a different country and preaching this crap, they'll look at you like you're speaking Martian.

>Everyone in this country, and the
>world for that matter, has
>been brainwashed by a scientific
>community that is subsidized by
>big business, whose only concern
>is to keep selling meat,
>dairy, and fast food at
>any cost... we're taught the
>USDA food pyramid from a
>very young age... if you
>look closely, you'll see those
>posters are co-sponsered by the
>beef council. We're been
>taught to live this way
>for so long, it's difficult
>for most to break their
>conditioning that we must eat
>meat. Maybe seeking the truth
>about this will open your
>eyes, or at least see
>what your esteemed colleagues in
>the medical community have to
>say about meat consumption.

Everyone? Even people like the Bedouins of the deserts of Arabia? I'm sure they heard of the USDA Food Pyramid and false recommendations of scientists (???). Be realistic.

Your hearsay is worse than mine... you can't just state that the problem with meat is what they inject into it... if I eat a bunch of banana's every day for twenty years, I doubt they'll be any inpacted banana built up in my colon, and I'll say that a bunch a day is excessive enough to make an impact!

My comment about the food pyramid really only relates to the United States, but the comment about people in the world is this... meat to most other cultures is purely as a "condiment", to which I say, why bother, then? The main thing to understand is that if we are the evolved species we claim to be, then our lack of compasion towards the animals we consume shouldn't be tolerated... voraciously consuming flesh is quite inhuman.

Why can't I feel compassion for an animal and still eat it? When I go to kill an animal I make sure the knife is already sharpened and never do it in the sight of the animal. I pet the animal, give it water or food, whatever it needs to be calmed down. I look the animal in its eyes when I slit it's throat before saying "Bismillah." I don't tie it down or anything or beat it. What's so uncompassionate about that?

And I mentioned the Bedouins because they are one of the only groups of people that are nomads the "old-fashioned way."

It's simple... your lack of compassion comes when you KILL the animal. Your ritual of compassion would not excuse you from killing a human in the same fashion, why another of God's creatures? Why is it in your power to destroy life?

You kill everyday. It's a part of the way things work, it is the balance of existence. Everyday you walk on the ground you're killing insects. Anytime you breathe you are killing bacteria. This is a part of life, to deny that something must be killed in order for something else to continue to live is ignorance.

Are you telling me animals that kill other animals, such as a lion, cannot be compassionate?

vegan life is not for everyone. the USDA and their little meat campaign cannot be compared to what mahi is saying. MODERATION is the key word here. i personally go thru periods when i don't eat meat at all. i just don't crave it (meaning for me my body doesn't need it @that time). and i must admit that i had stopped eating red meat about 8 years ago b/c it was making me nauseous. however, that was because i was eating it in EXCESS.

i now, on rare occasion eat small portions of free range chicken, ostrich meat, and yes occasionally a little red meat from the organic store. the red meat i eat probably twice a year if even that. i'm absolutely positive i'm not dying slowly b/c of it. i don't get sick or nauseous when i eat it b/c again it's a rare thing. for me, it's very difficult to keep my weight up without a sprinking of poultry and fish here and there, but i am very careful about where i buy my meat. i've read all the books, seen herbalists, nutritionists and the like. bottom line, i won't die anytime soon for the amount of meat i consume. for me it's not an activist thing it's a health thing.

you're falling into the same trap as those you complained about in the beginning. mahi is not asking that vegans or vegetarians give up there life or the way they eat, but it is true you have to be extremely careful about what you eat, because it is much easier to leave out minerals and other vitamins, etc. as a vegetarian. at least is was for me. i've never felt healthier in all my life. i would say to everyone to do what's best for you. ANYTHING IN EXCESS IS NO GOOD!

sacred

I hear you and I agree with you... but since you are in a situation where you can appreciate the health consciousness of vegetarianism/veganism, think about this:

No one ever died or got sick from something they didn't eat.

i stopped eating meat for three months (it was supposed to be a permanent change) one summer and early fall. i was running 100+ mile weeks prior to that, but i was trying to keep up my training schedule while i was getting more and more fatigued every day. i eventually found out that i had an iron deficiency, but by then i had cut my mileage in half and experienced the most miserable three months of my life.

this could have easily been avoided if i had looked into what else i was giving up when i gave up meat (iron, protein) and shelled out some money for supplements. buying stuff like that seems sort of expensive at the time, but its nothing compared to the price of a burger times x number of meals. i'd imagine that being a vegatarian is a lot cheaper in the end. point is: you can get sick from what you don't eat (scurvy is another good case in point... you'd think that nobody gets that anymore, but i just met some kid who had it last year) but only if you aren't careful. if you're eating meat and leading a somewhat active lifestyle, you should probably look into what else you're giving up if you give up meat.

Hotep

Iron AND Protein can be found in plant sources, you just didn't know and is not a reflection on your vegetarianism. Don't blame vegetables... Blame yourself.

Peace
Solarus

"Activism is the practice of using an internal, self-determining source of power to live one's life and/or enact some sort of change. Power is the ability to define reality, while self-determination is to decide or define one's self. Therefore activism, is not simply something done to right some wrong or to fight some cause but rather it is a way of life. Activism is the way of life where one can define self and change anything that may impede or control the reality that one chooses to live."-Solarus

i generally saw the opposite.......

I knew someone would get into this. People always have this misconception about vegetarians and vegans being malnourished. I'm not sure where this idea came from. The assumption that just because you eat meat you are getting proper nutrition is outrageous. Everyone should be concerned about their diet, especially in the United States, where we have some of the most atrocious eating habits in the world. If you have done any reading, you would know that protein is not a major concern for non-meat eaters. Most people, including vegetarians, get more then their fair share of protein. Many meat eaters actually get too much protein, which can be very unhealthy. If there is any vitamin/mineral to be concerned about, it would be iron. Even this shouldn't be an issue if people eat a reasonable amount of green leafy vegetables. As far as the amino acid issue, there are 20 amino acids. Not even meat eaters get all 20. It's not necessary to eat all 20. Your diet simply needs to contain the essential amino acids, all of which can be consumed from a balanced plant diet. The only amino acids you can't get from a plant-based diet are the non-essential amino acids, and who cares because these are the ones your body produces on its own. When you eat meat, you are just getting the non-essential amino acids that the animal's body produced.

So don't assume that just because you eat meat you are healthy, and for that matter, don't assume because you don't you're healthy either. No matter which type of diet you choose, you need to be an intelligent consumer of food and learn what your body needs.

And for all those people who don't believe what meat does to your body, try doing the Master Cleanser. You'll see those 10 pounds of undigested red meat come right out your butt and make a huge mess in your toilet. Gross but true!

I am not a strict vegetarian; i eat fish and some chicken/turkey, but only free-range and home prepared.
If people just thought about what they are eating, we wouldnt have the 4 million cases of foodpoisoning caused by meat each year. Why would you order a piece of food that may or may not be a cow, handled behind a closed door that may or may not be cooked properly. It is spooky. I NEVER eat at a restaurant where I can't see the kitchen. That should be your number one hint that what you are about to eat may not be prepared correctly. The reason why i bring this up is because it is mainly "steakhouse" and "bbq" places that close off the kitchen.
Next, say the word of what you are wanting to eat:
Pork
Pork
Pork-swine-pig-why is it that this animal was named the most disgusting of all possible names? and three of them at that. Its because of this that I will never eat pig again. period. never.

also, any piece of food that you MUST cook in order to eat should be a warning signal: Any vegtable or friut or grain can be eaten raw and you would be fine, but eat some cow, pig, chicken raw and you are fucked. A food that must first be sanatized before you can eat it? shiver....
benine

>also, any piece of food that
>you MUST cook in order
>to eat should be a
>warning signal: Any vegtable or
>friut or grain can be
>eaten raw and you would
>be fine, but eat some
>cow, pig, chicken raw and
>you are fucked. A food
>that must first be sanatized
>before you can eat it?

Ehh.. not completely true. Fruits and vegetables do have to be prepared before you eat them. The preparation is washing them. This may seem like nothing but it does affect fruit. For example B-12, which it is said that a lot of people, mainly vegans, lack in their diet, is actually just a bacteria if I'm not mistaken. This is why meat eaters get the vitamin, because it is in meat. It is also on fruits, but when you wash the fruit off you wash the B-12 off. (I may be wrong.)

Also, the fruit and vegetable industry of America is PLENTY corrupt and foul. By using pesticides and other unnatural chemicals on fruits and vegetables. So your food is already being sanatized like it or not while in the labs or fields. Kinda sucks.

>also, any piece of food that
>you MUST cook in order
>to eat should be a
>warning signal: Any vegtable or
>friut or grain can be
>eaten raw and you would
>be fine, but eat some
>cow, pig, chicken raw and
>you are fucked. A food
>that must first be sanatized
>before you can eat it?

Who says you have to cook meat...we just choose to. There are plenty of meals (mainly Asian) that use uncooked meat.

JMello

"Those of us who spent time in the agricultural sector and in the heartland, we understand how unfair the death penalty is - the death tax is."

"Si, I'm very concerned about the amount of acreage in cultivation for the growth of cocoa leaves."

"...it's about past 7 here, so we're actually in different timelines."

"I am mindful not only of preserving executive powers for myself, but my predecessors, as well. And that's why I made the decision."

"I'm about to name my brother the ambassador to Chad."

"They don't seem to be flocking in right now, but it is dove season in Texas. I'm a hunter and if I decide to shoot some dove, I'll shoot 'em and eat 'em."

--President-Select George W. Bush--

>
>Who says you have to cook
>meat...we just choose to.
>There are plenty of meals
>(mainly Asian) that use uncooked
>meat.
>
>JMello

would you eat one of these meals in america? would it be safe to eat uncooked meat from america? i am not sure if i buy this argument, aside from fish, i dont know how much of the asian diet is dependent on meat...most of the "chinese food" or tai food you find in america has been turned into something that americans will eat. this includes loading down meals with sauted meats and unnatural sauces (sweet and sour?). how many head of cattle do you think there are in china? hmmm....

benine

>>Who says you have to cook
>>meat...we just choose to.
>>There are plenty of meals
>>(mainly Asian) that use uncooked
>>meat.
>>
>>JMello
>
>ould you eat one of these
>meals in merica?

I have.

>ould it
>be safe to eat uncooked
>meat from merica?

I have.

> am
>not sure if buy
>this argument, aside from fish,
>i dont know how much
>of the sian diet is
>dependent on meat...

There's a Korean, Japanese and Vietnamese dish which consist of raw beef on top of noodles. (I wish I could remember the name.)

>ost of the
>"hinese food" or ai food
>you find in merica has
>been turned into something that
>mericans will eat. this includes
>loading down meals with sauted
>meats and unnatural sauces (sweet
>and sour?). how many head
>of cattle do you think
>there are in hina? hmmm....

Where did I say anything about America? I was countering the point made in the previous post: that because meat has to be cooked to be consumed it must be unhealthy or unsafe.

JMello

"Those of us who spent time in the agricultural sector and in the heartland, we understand how unfair the death penalty is - the death tax is."

"Si, I'm very concerned about the amount of acreage in cultivation for the growth of cocoa leaves."

"...it's about past 7 here, so we're actually in different timelines."

"I am mindful not only of preserving executive powers for myself, but my predecessors, as well. And that's why I made the decision."

"I'm about to name my brother the ambassador to Chad."

"They don't seem to be flocking in right now, but it is dove season in Texas. I'm a hunter and if I decide to shoot some dove, I'll shoot 'em and eat 'em."

--President-Select George W. Bush--

And i was simply saying that living in america, or any other over-populated country where meat is mass-produced, i have a problem trusting the grade of food..thats all. I just cant bring myself to trust mass-produced food of ANY kind (including vegies).

benine

eggplant will cut you up uncooked.

I'm trying to stop eating meat as well. I've noticed that I have a lot more energy nowadays and I even get irritated with teh smell of meat nowadays. Not trying to hate on anyone coz I used to eat LOADS of meat but I do think the world would be a better place if we all stopped eating meat.

Mayowa

Humans, chimps, gorillas, it doesn't matter.

If we were in the wild, we'd be eating meat.

Plain and simple.

Which is why I kinda laugh when I hear vegetarians calling it the natural choice.

Good choice? Maybe. Natural? Far from it.

People started eating meat because it was efficient. In some climates staple crops can't grow. The only thing that does: grass, hence the herding lifestyle in many places of the world.

Am I saying that the North American diet is fine as it is. Fuck no. Everyone should be idealy eating like we do back in Italy. But going stricly vege, not entirely necessary.

I actually tried it for a bit, I had to eat four meals a day cause I was always hungry. I don't have time for all that cookin!

Just thought I'd throw that in there . . .

Marinera: It's a sauce, not a chick's name, dig?

Giving you true calcio since 1986

AIM: Marinera81
MAIL: jonah_b27@hotmail.com

Check out http://www.greatergood.com Help end world hunger, save the rainforest, help stop AIDS in Africa, help children survive in 3rd world countries, stop breast cancer, and give treatment to landmine victims in less than a minute a day! FOR FREE! NO FORMS TO FILL OUT AND NO STRINGS! REALLY!!!

i agree with you too.

it is the mentality that goes along with eating that is destructive.

rarely to people fast(daylight hours) at least to give thier intestines a break.

there is constant eating, snacking, drinking , and chewing so the intestines are always at work(polips anyone?).

many of the foods that are chosen in the diet are not pure and of beneficial quality.

and then there is constant inactivity. sitting behind a desk, standing in one spot, but hardly any movement.

americans are like the fattest and most unhealthy people on the planet(or something like that).

-----

attitudes toward food in some countries are that of moderation. i mean if a desert nomad can survive off of 3 cups of water a day, how greedy are we? i know people who live by the rule fill 1/3 of the stomach with food,1/3 with water, and 1/3 empty(so as not be handicapped by the fullness of the stomach). i think that is a wise way.

Hotep

>Humans, chimps, gorillas, it doesn't matter.
>
>
>If we were in the wild,
>we'd be eating meat.

Most primates (in the wild) live off a diet of primarily plants and some insects. Very few (I can't think of any) live on a diet of raw meat. So you statement about humans in the wild makes no sense.

>
>Plain and simple.
>
>Which is why I kinda laugh
>when I hear vegetarians calling
>it the natural choice.
>
>Good choice? Maybe. Natural? Far from
>it.
>

Meat must be cooked to prolong optimal health in humans. Primates (in the wild) DO NOT COOK their food. Only a plant-based diet can be consumed uncooked and stil promote optimal health. Since uncooked foods are more natural than cooked foods, a plant-based must therefore be a more "natural" choice than meat-eating.

>Everyone
>should be idealy eating like
>we do back in Italy.

What is Italian eating like?


>But going stricly vege, not
>entirely necessary.
>

"Necessary" is relative to the one's desired goals at living.

My reasons for not eating meat:
1. Meat and animal product-consumption is not necessary for optimal health.
2. Meat and animal product-consumption has more adverse effects than eating only plants. Negatives of plant consumption generally revolves around a nutrient deficiency which is only the result of not eating an adequate variety of foods while the negatives surounding meat consumption not only include nutrient deficiency but also cause an influx of free radicals, toxins and substances that do not easily pass through the digestive tract.

Peace
Solarus


>I actually tried it for a
>bit, I had to eat
>four meals a day cause
>I was always hungry. I
>don't have time for all
>that cookin!
>
>Just thought I'd throw that in
>there . . .
>
>Marinera: It's a sauce, not a
>chick's name, dig?
>
>Giving you true calcio since 1986
>
>
>AIM: Marinera81
>MAIL: jonah_b27@hotmail.com
>
>Check out http://www.greatergood.com Help end world
>hunger, save the rainforest, help
>stop AIDS in Africa, help
>children survive in 3rd world
>countries, stop breast cancer, and
>give treatment to landmine victims
>in less than a minute
>a day! FOR FREE! NO
>FORMS TO FILL OUT AND
>NO STRINGS! REALLY!!!


"Activism is the practice of using an internal, self-determining source of power to live one's life and/or enact some sort of change. Power is the ability to define reality, while self-determination is to decide or define one's self. Therefore activism, is not simply something done to right some wrong or to fight some cause but rather it is a way of life. Activism is the way of life where one can define self and change anything that may impede or control the reality that one chooses to live."-Solarus

Herbivorous (plant-eating) animals like cows, sheep, and horses, usually have teeth (molars) with broad rigid surfaces that work like millstones for grinding their food.

Carnivores (meat-eating) animals like cats and dogs, generally have sharper, pointed incisors and canine teeth used to kill their prey and tear flesh.

Humans and other mammals, including chimpanzees and bears, are omnivores. Omnivores eat both meat and vegetable matter. Human adults have 32 teeth total. The front teeth are called incisors and are blade-like for cutting. We have canines for tearing. We also have two premolars for grinding and three molars in the back of the mouth for crushing.

naturally.

>Herbivorous (plant-eating) animals like cows, sheep,
>and horses, usually have teeth
>(molars) with broad rigid surfaces
>that work like millstones for
>grinding their food.

TRUE.
>
>Carnivores (meat-eating) animals like cats and
>dogs, generally have sharper, pointed
>incisors and canine teeth used
>to kill their prey and
>tear flesh.
>
TRUE.

>Humans and other mammals, including chimpanzees
>and bears, are omnivores. Omnivores
>eat both meat and vegetable
>matter. Human adults have 32
>teeth total. The front teeth
>are called incisors and are
>blade-like for cutting. We have
>canines for tearing. We also
>have two premolars for grinding
>and three molars in the
>back of the mouth for
>crushing.
>

FALSE.

So very false. Humans are not meant to be omnivores. As I stated before, living an omnivorious life style is the cause of humans suffering from so much sickness and disease AND THINKING THAT THIS SICKNESS AND DISEASE IS NORMAL. Cancer is NOT normal. Arthritis is NOT normal. Diabetes is NOT normal. The common cold is NOT normal.

The only time these illnesses and many others become "normal" or occur regularly is when you are doing something that is not normal for your system. The abnormal activity that causes the majority of these (and other) illnesses is meat eating and really eating any damn thing (being an omnivore). Sickness, illness, and disease is not normal; Health is normal.

If you live a lifestyle of a carnivore or omnivore you will surely suffer from much illness and disease on the regular because your lifestyle (meat eating and eating anything) is not normal. That's not to say that those who are vegatarians NEVER get sick, but I am sure that vegetarians get sick alot less infrequently than carnivorous and omnivorous human beings.

A point of correction. Carnivores have FANGS (not just incisors). The Fangs are the teeth that do most of the tearing and ripping of raw flesh. Humans do not have fangs. We can not chew meat to the point that it's near a liquid state so that it may be easily assimilated into AND THROUGH our long digestive system. (Can anybody say "Colon Cancer"; most vegetarians probably don't even know what that is).

Also, carnivores eat their meat raw (uncooked), because their system is designed to handle the digestion of raw meat. If you want to compare our system to a carnivore or state that we can eat anything (i.e., omnivore), I'd like to see you go out in the bush of Africa and catch a zebra (use a bow and arrow, a spear, a gun, whatever) and eat the flesh of that zebra in it's natuaral state, RAW. Blood, hair, skin and all. This is how carnivores eat their meat.

Not only is the carnivores teeth different from human beings, but their whole system is different. They sweat through their mouth (the reason for open mouth panting on hot days) and they have a much shorter digestive system than humans. These things make meat eating a more natural way of eating for them (i.e., carnivores).

Primates, in their natural condition, typically do not hunt and eat meat. As stated, by Brother Solarus, these animals eat plant life (bananas, melons, nuts, berries, etc...) and bugs. Our physiological make up is closest to primates, so really our diets should be most similar to theirs (as opposed to carnivorous and omnivorous animals).

The only primates that you will see eating meat (on a regular basis, if at all) are the ones in captivity (at the zoo, in the circus, etc.) or those that have been removed from their natural element in some other way, shape, or form.


Lastly, most creatures are NOT omnivores. Bears may be considered omnivores, but the most notorious omnivore is the pig, Mr. Hog, Captain Swine. He's top dog in omnivore eating. I don't dine with pigs and I don't dine like pigs. Really, it's cool for pigs to be omnivorous because they have a system that's capable of ingesting damn near anything and living.

Here's a challenge for you: If you REALLY consider yourself an omnivore, try to match the eating habits of the pig for one week.
How long do you think you would last?



>naturally.



"Truth will make you depart from that which you say you believe." - NaSheed Fakhrid-Deen

"...And we are loved for being ignorant and hated if we are militant..." - Alafia Pudim of the Last Poets.

"The first generation of Negroes were INTIMIDATED BY white supremacy.
The second generation of Negroes WORSHIPPED white supremacy.
The new generation of Negroes IS white supremacy." - "Evolution" by Amiri Baraka

Are you trying to say that by not eating meat then these diseases would go away??????


peace...

>Are you trying to say that
>by not eating meat then
>these diseases would go away??????
>
>
>
>peace...


Yes, I am saying that not eating meat will help to eliminate alot of the illnesses that we consider normal (some even call these diseases natural. Can you imagine that, illness being natural? What a SICK society this is).

And you won't hear this from the medical establishment in America because they have a BIG stake/steak in people GETTING AND STAYING SICK. There's alot of money caught up in SICKNESS in America and alot of folks and institutions (research laboratories, clinics, pharmacists, etc.) are getting seriously paid off of the sickness and suffering of the masses. If you had a cash cow like this, would you ever stop milking it or do anything that would dry the cow up? Don't expect or trust the medical industry to keep it real on this. Truth is their enemy when it comes to the topic of "health for the masses."

In many "uncivilized" countries around the world, where meat eating is scarely done, if done at all, diseases like cancer, diabetes, high blood pressure, high cholestorol, ovarian cysts, etc... are unheard of. Many of these countries are "uncivilized" and they don't have the benefit of our "medical technology" (but they live healthier lives than us. Go figure).

It's rare to find vegetarians here or anywhere in the world who suffer from these types of illnesses, while meat eaters suffer from these illnesses on the regular. A better way to state this is, if you found 100 people who were suffering from any of these illnesses (cancer, high-blood pressure, diabetes, etc...), less than 3% are likely to be vegetarians. Note: I didn't conduct a survey nor am I quoting a source for this info.; this is just my opinion).

My point is that vegatarians rarely, if ever, suffer from many of these illnesses that many in America, think of as normal. This alone should be proof enough that meat eating is not natural for human beings.

Of course, cutting out meat is not the only element that will eliminate many of these illnesses. If you cut out meat, but binge on a diet of now-laters, taffy, jolly ranchers sticks, cotton candy, white sugar and white flour products etc... your health will be no better than eatin' chitterlins every night.

Exercise/physical activity, along with other things are also important elements for good health.

I hope that this provides clarification.



"Truth will make you depart from that which you say you believe." - NaSheed Fakhrid-Deen

"...And we are loved for being ignorant and hated if we are militant..." - Alafia Pudim of the Last Poets.

"The first generation of Negroes were INTIMIDATED BY white supremacy.
The second generation of Negroes WORSHIPPED white supremacy.
The new generation of Negroes IS white supremacy." - "Evolution" by Amiri Baraka

Peace...

>Most primates (in the wild) live
>off a diet of primarily
>plants and some insects. Very
>few (I can't think of
>any) live on a diet
>of raw meat. So you
>statement about humans in the
>wild makes no sense.

I didn't mean that they were carnivores. I meant that a small (sometimes very small) portion of most primates' diets consist of meat. Chimps have been known to eat squirels & rats, same with Baboons. Gorillas even eat other primates! - mostly smaller monkeys. While meat in no way makes up a large portion of their diet, most primates do consume some meat.

>What is Italian eating like?

Well first off, it lowers the risk of heart problems, cancer & other diseases dramatically. It's what's commonly called a Mediterranean diet. High on grains & vegetables, low on meat. Fish & other seafood make up a good portion of the diet as well as pasta. You might go days without eating any meat and when you do it's usually a little chicken mixed in with the pasta.

>"Necessary" is relative to the one's
>desired goals at living.

True enough, which is why I'm not a vegetarian. All of my grandparents have survived to an old age, and are in amazing condition (one grandpappy's still goes to the YMCA three days a week at 84!) eating a Mediterranean diet or following a Kosher diet with some fasting.

Just thought I'd throw that in there . . .

Marinera: It's a sauce, not a chick's name, dig?

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>>Most primates (in the wild) live
>>off a diet of primarily
>>plants and some insects. Very
>>few (I can't think of
>>any) live on a diet
>>of raw meat. So you
>>statement about humans in the
>>wild makes no sense.
>
>I didn't mean that they were
>carnivores. I meant that a
>small (sometimes very small) portion
>of most primates' diets consist
>of meat. Chimps have been
>known to eat squirels &
>rats, same with Baboons. Gorillas
>even eat other primates! -
>mostly smaller monkeys. While meat
>in no way makes up
>a large portion of their
>diet, most primates do consume
>some meat.

Primates diets DO NOT consist of meat. Meat eating is rarely, if ever, done among primates in their natural environment. Primates in captivity eat whatever their captors provide for them.

Primates that have vegetation within reach will pick a banana over chasing down a squirrel or a rat. If he happens to be in an environment that is unnatural for him, (i.e., no fruit or other plant life available), he may be forced into meat eating (an unnatural choice for him to adjust to his unnatural environment, in those cases).

In cases of Gorilla's eating other primates, I'm aware that this does happen. From my understanding, it's more of an "Alpha-male" thing killing off the offspring in his family that he believes he didn't sire. I've seen documentaries where the "Alpha-male" gorilla will snatch up a baby gorilla, kill the baby gorilla and then eat him!!

From my understanding, this is done more often to EMPHATICALLY DECLARE his leadership of the clan and somehow, in gorilla culture, the very existence of this baby gorilla that he believes he didn't sire, represents a threat and/or disrespect to his leadership and authority. His eating of the other primate(s) is not done to fulfill a nutritional void nor can it be considered a part of his natural food selection process. Eating of other primates involves other issues for gorillas.


>>What is Italian eating like?
>
>Well first off, it lowers the
>risk of heart problems, cancer
>& other diseases dramatically. It's
>what's commonly called a Mediterranean
>diet. High on grains &
>vegetables, low on meat. Fish
>& other seafood make up
>a good portion of the
>diet as well as pasta.
>You might go days without
>eating any meat and when
>you do it's usually a
>little chicken mixed in with
>the pasta.
>
>>"Necessary" is relative to the one's
>>desired goals at living.
>
>True enough, which is why I'm
>not a vegetarian. All of
>my grandparents have survived to
>an old age, and are
>in amazing condition (one grandpappy's
>still goes to the YMCA
>three days a week at
>84!) eating a Mediterranean diet
>or following a Kosher diet
>with some fasting.
>
Well, the majority of the above doesn't surprise me too much in regard to Italian eating. Italian dishes usually involve a lot of garlic, right? Garlic can neutralize many a bad eating habits (meat eating included).

My great grandmother (may she rest in peace) used to cook alot of hog. I mean the crazy parts of the pig, snout, tails, feet, neck, you name it, she probably cooked/ate it. She lived to be almost 80 and never suffered from high-blood pressure or high-cholestrol. That's because she used to cook almost everything with madd garlic in it, always. Even the crazy pork dishes that she'd whip up on the regular were laced with plenty of garlic.

She did suffer from alzheimers/senility in her last days, but that's beside the point.

Garlic is powerful, and it ALWAYS helps to have it as a part of your diet.



"Truth will make you depart from that which you say you believe." - NaSheed Fakhrid-Deen

"...And we are loved for being ignorant and hated if we are militant..." - Alafia Pudim of the Last Poets.

"The first generation of Negroes were INTIMIDATED BY white supremacy.
The second generation of Negroes WORSHIPPED white supremacy.
The new generation of Negroes IS white supremacy." - "Evolution" by Amiri Baraka

can somebody tell me the reason that revolutionaries don't eat meat?
thank u,
Earth tones.




I don't trust the man
that i am becoming
he seems too much
and seldom is
-Saul Williams

Peace, Love and Positive Progression

Well, I can only speculate as to this... I offered some quotes up previously, many from key intellectual figures that believe meat eating has a direct correlation to the way people treat each other. Also, eliminating meat can put one at the peak of their physical self. In the hindu belief, eliminating violence, or yamas, is a key to enlightenment. Eating meat, which is a violent act, is frowned upon greatly. This is what I could think of...

Another reason is that the production of meat is very resource inefficient. I don't know the exact statistics but the water and grain used to feed one cow could feed many times more people than the number who will eat from the cow. So those concerned with equity and the sustainability of the environment would naturally frown on eating meat given these global consequences.

Mesnjah

I could go on and on the full has never been told ~ Buju Banton

there's a girl in my dorm who is a vegetarian. she says that she doesn't eat meat because of the suffering of the animals and how it's unfair to them. but, she wears leather products (shoes and belts). she says that in her mind its okay because the parts of the animal are put to good use. but, i don't understand how this is any different from killing an animal for its meat. meat is used for nourishment, vitamens, and energy. in my mind this is a contradiction. can someone please elaborate on this? i'm a little confused by her statements.

on how i feel about vegetarians? i have no real problem with them. three of my close friends are vegetarians, and they don't try to force their ideals on me. i find that at school, i perdominatly eat pasta and salads because i don not like the meat. but, i always find myself craveing meat. i don't eat it that much, but i think that it is still a good product to have in your diet.






"If I had a penny for every thought, I'd have 3 pennies!!" ~SHU

"You'll get toast like a Thomas' and it's a promise kid your English will get muffined" ~Sunz of Man

"If we were made in His image then call us buy our names. Most intellects do not believe in God but they fear us just the same....." ~Erykah Badu

trevor: "Now for your jacket u can have your first name, your last name, or something special"
doug:"That's what i want"
trevor:"What?"
doug:"Something special"
trevor:"You can't have that, it's won't fit!"

Ok guys, the score is 0-0, we're tied. the game hasn't started yet, if we score, we win. Go out there and win!!!!

*DISCLAIMER*
I can't spell

~WOLFIE~

the girl in your dorm is a hypocrite.

personal preference . . .religious reasons . . .yadda yadda.


just eat healthy

everyone has different chemistry I can't physically afford to be a vegiatarian due to my metabolism and build, yes talked to nutritionists and doctors about it.

gonne go eat some buffalo jerky and suck down some irish moss!

onedrop

http://members.nbci.com/ONEDROP/index.html

While i do not have a problem with vegetarians or vegans, i do have a problem with some of their arguments. I recently spoke with my doctor and did a little research on the subject. I do prescribe to limiting my daily diet of meat. I do not prescribe to totally eliminating meat from your diet.

1. While it is true that some fruit and vegetables due have iron, they are not the best sources to retrieve them. The intake of these fruit and vegetables (nuts, beans, and some vegetables like brocolli and cabbage) would have to increase to an extreme level. Why eat a meat a day and get your daily full. For I exercice alot because I have too. ( I only eat poultry and fish) for the using the same health/risk ratio.

2. The arguments for not eating meat have to many wholes in them.. Afrikans ate meat (that includes Ancient Afrika). Veganism is a mostly western concept.. I do not fall under a specific religion that outlaws eating meat.. and the above my health is not seriously questions..

peace...

Hotep

Priestly sects in KMT abstained from meat-eating. I recall Queen Afua stating that meat-eating didn't become prominent in KMT until after the Hyksos invasion but I can't speak on how true that is. But various priestly groups that derived KMT like the Essenes and Dravidic priests (and their derivators such as Hindu and Buddhist priests) were vegetarians. The Pythagoreans (the secret brotherhood started by the Greek philosopher, Pythagoras, after studying in KMT and having his Kemetic teachings shunned by the contemporary Greek society) were also vegetarians.

Also the Tutsi? of Rwanda were traditionally vegetarians (not vegans as they still drank milk). I'm sure upon further study I could find more examples of Afrikan vegetarians who were not influenced by Westerners.

PEace
Solarus

"Activism is the practice of using an internal, self-determining source of power to live one's life and/or enact some sort of change. Power is the ability to define reality, while self-determination is to decide or define one's self. Therefore activism, is not simply something done to right some wrong or to fight some cause but rather it is a way of life. Activism is the way of life where one can define self and change anything that may impede or control the reality that one chooses to live."-Solarus

>
>2. The arguments for not eating
>meat have to many wholes
>in them.

And there are even more holes in arguments that ATTEMPT to support humans eating meat.


Afrikans ate meat
>(that includes Ancient Afrika).

Brother Solarus has already touched upon Afrikans and vegetarian vs. meat-eater issue.



Veganism
>is a mostly western concept..
>I do not fall under
>a specific religion that outlaws
>eating meat.. and the above
>my health is not seriously
>questions..
>

Veganism IS NOT a western concept. If anything, meat eating (at the very least, this obsessive meat eating) is a product of western (more specifically, "cave") culture.




"Truth will make you depart from that which you say you believe." - NaSheed Fakhrid-Deen

"...And we are loved for being ignorant and hated if we are militant..." - Alafia Pudim of the Last Poets.

"The first generation of Negroes were INTIMIDATED BY white supremacy.
The second generation of Negroes WORSHIPPED white supremacy.
The new generation of Negroes IS white supremacy." - "Evolution" by Amiri Baraka

Most, there are exceptions, Afrikan nations ate meat, point blank, now they did not eat in an excessive manner nor was it the center of there diets, meat was a luxury that was not apart of their regular diet. Yet they still ate it. As far as the excessive meat eating being a cave diet, this is true, and i never said it wasn't.

All the other I agree with and acknowledge...

peace...

im not a veggie or anything, but im a firm believer in the phrase "whatever floats your boat". however, along with probably many others, if i was forced to watch or kill my own food, i would probly be a veg.
so liver and let live. haha
peace

or at least, some arrogant meat eaters are immature fucks --

i'm not vegetarian, but i have some friends who are and whenever there's food and mixed company (carnivores/veggies), this is sure to come up...

carni: have you tasted these hamburgers? they're dope!

veggie: no, i haven't...actually, i don't eat meat...

carni: What?! you don't eat meat??? why not?

veggie: (fill in reason -- as if people gotta offer one up)

carni: that's stupid...blahblahblah...*starts to eat food*

carni (to veggie): c'mon doesn't this look good? *takes giant bite of hamburger*

veggie: *rolls eyes*

carni: c'mon, just try it...

i don't know if the idiocy translates well, but whatever...

and self-righteous veggies aren't any better either...

|peace.|aim:treisdeuce|cruciverbalist|muddy.angel.syntactics|

In the Year 2000: Fools will knock on my door to ask me to no longer pity them. It will be raining and I won't be home...so i will continue to pity them. -- Mr. T (3.21.01)

>veggie: (fill in reason -- as
>if people gotta offer one
>up)

I'm glad you mentioned that. I don't eat meat. I stopped about 8 years ago, so I've grown accustomed to the things people say. I find it interesting that vegeterians are routinely asked to provide a "reason" for not eating meat, while few people who ask these questions have a well thought out "reason" for eating meat.

For me, it's just what I'm comfortable with. I don't have any hardcore idealogy behind it. Actually, I stopped eating red meat because I was a bit grossed out after hearing BDP's song "Beef". Then I lived in a college dorm and the chicken was nasty. I never much liked fish, so I just quit, okay? :-)