At times golks have said that they have outserved their purpose. Othes claim that the curriculum is outdated at some, if not the majority of them. There are other arguments that are against these institutions of higher learning, they will be addresses later.

For now though, with the UMich decision set to possibly create a domino effect through mainstream predominantly white colleges and universities, my question to y'all is do you believe in maintaining these institutions? Are they indeed outdated? Not individually, but as a whole body?


little......
*************************************
http://members.blackplanet.com/GrumpyBear/
*************************************

"Life's a bitch....BUT I LOVE THAT HOE!!!" (c) AVE

Yes, HBCU's are still needed. As a matter of fact, with the dismantling of affirmative action that is occuring around the country, we may soon return to a time when HBCU's are the only option for most blacks.

I don't think they have outserved their purpose, I just believe their purpose has changed over the years. When they were founded, blacks were not allowed to attend most white institutions. Now we can (supposedly) but in order to gain knowledge of self, we may want to attend an HBCU. Not to say that you can't gain knowledge of self at a white college, but it depends on the individual. Some people thrive better in this environment. This has nothing to do with the curriculum as many white colleges have better African studies programs that black colleges. However, I believe that most learning occurs outside of the classroom, so it's the social interaction skills as well as the personal attentiion from professors that make them attractive.

Some have a few majors that may seem outdated, but all of them also have programs that are very relevant to today's society. So, it's up to the individual not to choose the outdated major.

We need them more than ever.

but the key is everyone should have the right to choose which college they would like to attend...
and most knowledge comes from outside the classroom...

Much love,
Kyle

****************************************
sellin' sigs since 1999
****************************************

>Yes, HBCU's are still needed.
>As a matter of fact,
>with the dismantling of affirmative
>action that is occuring around
>the country, we may soon
>return to a time when
>HBCU's are the only option
>for most blacks.

I was just thinking that the other day. And it could be a good thing on one level, forcing the schools to update their curriculums & resources in order to accomodate a new influx of students.

Of course, if the backlash dies down, they could continue to be marginalized.

L.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Homer: Do you wanna change your name to Homer, Jr? All the kids can call you HoJo!
Bart: uhh...I'll get back to you...

"how u gonna tell me to mind my biz/when you lookin like somethin I need to know about?"~~de la soul

"Ignorance: The Verbal Airborne Disease" (c) my friend Ty

"writer's block is a...I mean, it's like...uh...damn." ~~Me

recently I had the honor of sitting in on Jonathan Kozol speak at UofMich...I think what he said about HBCU's (and as a proponant of affirmative action) he was pretty on point.

basically the gist of it is...segregated schools of ANY measure (all white/all black/all latino) can never benefit ANYBODY. Blacks that want to stay segregated and inferior feed right into the hands of right wing conservatives..socially and economically...

not knocking HBCU's...but i know many a black student that would never attend one...and I think if you went to a lot of the innercity elementary schools in detroit you could see why (they are 95% black)....the almighty dollar. (now i'm speaking on historically segregated schools, as I have never been to a HBCU campus)...Segregated Public Schools lack in books/teachers/classrooms/supplies/technology...not to mention the lack of diversity....I think we all benefit from learning about others cultures and differences...tolerance per se.

I'd rather spend my time fighting for social and racial equality in ALL sectors of lower and higher education....blacks should not have to say "we'll need um"...blacks should have the equal opportunity to attend ANY damn school they want to...and if you choose a HBCU for whatever reasons you deem worthy...that should be YOUR choice....not what your forced to do because of fucked up social/societal system



Much love,
Kyle

****************************************
sellin' sigs since 1999
****************************************

As a student at Morehouse College, I feel that HBCU's are needed now more than ever. What is with the stigma that black schools equal inferiority? Attending an HBCU is the best way for black students to prepare for the "real" world. Right now, Morehouse is the #1 contributor of black males into medical school. And with similar results coming from schools such as Howard, Hampton, and Xavier, how can one argue against the value of an education from an HBCU???

"REAL RECOGNIZE REAL, and even more than that, the fake, they REALLY REALLY recognize REAL!" -BlackThought

Junior Economics major

how involved are you in the school?

just questions, i went there, must say was very optimistic about the role of Morehouse till i found out the truth. came in 96'
c/o 2000

Personally, I'm not as involved in the politrix side of Morehouse as I could be, but that's not my interest. What truth are you speaking of?

goto graduation, ask people what they're going to do. i.e. who they're going to work for, or ask what there plans are for black people.

or second, try to shut down that overpriced white owned bookstore and see what kid of opostion you get

or ask for a list of financial contributers to the college like we did when i was there and see if you aren't blacklisted

Morehouse and most hbcu's produce by large more african americans, not true afrikan thinkers/people. thus a cycle of the talented tenth is perpetuated when people when they enter the "real world" and young people emulate them. read some of dubois's later works (which shocked the hell out of me) and see his views on his own talented negroes. note:morehouse will never publish these speeches or let them be read during crown forum, i wish prof. crawford were still teaching there to show you some, ever heard of him?



"REAL RECOGNIZE REAL, and even more than that, the fake, they REALLY REALLY recognize REAL!" -BlackThought

i'm serious when i say George and Jeb bushes LOVE ward connerlys and historically black colleges...

Much love,
Kyle

****************************************
sellin' sigs since 1999
****************************************

>>how can one argue against the value of an education from an HBCU???

easily, if one thinks outside of the american concept of what schools are for or who benefits from hbcu's.

just thoguht i'd throw that in there.

Without school, then what is the best PRACTICAL way for blacks to benefit within the capitalistic society in which we live?

I know of Prof. Crawford, but I don't know the reasons for his exit. From what I heard, he taught the truth to his students, and I know how the school reacts in those instances

We all know how the business dept. pushed brothers into the slave factory of white coporate america. it is the mentality of the the econimics and business dept that there measure of success is to see how many brothers they can get in NY, on Wallstreet, consulting, or some ivy league business school. negroe level thinking at its finest. instead of thinking out of the box.. One thing about Morehouse I hated....

By the way class of 00' Morehouse College with Bus. Adm. Finance Degree...

peace...

of dealing with all races...in whatever practical way you can accomplish...

Much love,
Kyle

****************************************
sellin' sigs since 1999
****************************************

its not school that's bad, its what is taught, that's the problem, as long as you produce people who willplay this game, the game willnever end. you produce revolutionaries and...game over, welcome reality

check this out:

http://www.okayplayer.com/dcforum/DCForumID1/2182.html

"REAL RECOGNIZE REAL, and even more than that, the fake, they REALLY REALLY recognize REAL!" -BlackThought

most posts on this thread even advocate the inclusion or support of hbcu's without even questioning their merit. at least merit for black people that is. of course morehouse can produce doctors but that's within a system created by others whose rules will be adhered to. the problems needing to be solved need a revolutionary type solution which is why the continual trying of current methods leads us nowhere. i was at howard a little while ago ad spike lee said during a forum that "we as black people have enough actors singers and dancers and rappers, we need lawyers and people behind the camera to step up. similarly, morehouse continuing to produce people of the same calibre going to work for the benfit of others and producing only more african american negroes is not helping black people.

for me to explain how this one example of octors relates to why morehouse is not producing quality people whould involve a wholistic circular explanation of the necessity for the very people hbcu's produce, and the history off hbcu's period. long story short, look at the products and guage the school. most people matriculating through are just refining their skills at being better americans. peace

long
>story short, look at the
>products and guage the school.
>most people matriculating through are
>just refining their skills at
>being better americans. peace

basically.

Much love,
Kyle

****************************************
sellin' sigs since 1999
****************************************

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Homer: Do you wanna change your name to Homer, Jr? All the kids can call you HoJo!
Bart: uhh...I'll get back to you...

"how u gonna tell me to mind my biz/when you lookin like somethin I need to know about?"~~de la soul

"Ignorance: The Verbal Airborne Disease" (c) my friend Ty

"writer's block is a...I mean, it's like...uh...damn." ~~Me

Are making cogs to be placed into the system or are you trying to make improvements/a new entir system altogether? I made a post about this a while ago about why we go to college and what exactly do we want to do with our degrees.

See, most universities do not push for the "game changing" element in the student body with the requirements for the FACULTY to pursue research opportunities in order to continue teaching. Understand, it is the role of the professors to push forth intellctual stimulation among the students. yet, the administration and outside accredidation agencies hamper this development because of the guidelines they set forth in order to make reputable the programs the university teaches.

Yeah, it's cool to make change but you have to make chamnges to the role of the administration in order to achieve this. In my opinion.......




little......
*************************************
http://members.blackplanet.com/GrumpyBear/
*************************************

"Life's a bitch....BUT I LOVE THAT HOE!!!" (c) AVE

and pertaining to HBCU's,,i agree that schools need to be centered around a firm belief in community and involvement in the community....but you don't agree that an integrated ideology wouldn't be benefical to that community?


Much love,
Kyle

****************************************
sellin' sigs since 1999
****************************************

only when black people get theor shit together though

scene from malcom x:

COED
Mr. X, I've read some of your speeches and I
honestly believe a lot of what you say has
truth to it. I have a good heart. I'm a good
person despite my whiteness. What can the good
white people like myself, who are not
prejudiced, or racist, what can we do to help
the cause?



He stares at her.

MALCOLM
Nothing!


black people need to take care of our own before integrating or the identity is lost, and right now, black people don't even know who they are.

recanted that statement. Read the whole history.

Peace

Wendell

Whether he recanted it or not DOES NOT MATTER to utamaroho's statement. It was just an dramatic example. If you noticed it was the scene from the movie not the book. The scene itself is very significant and one could see by the movie that even Spike Lee chose to dramaticize this point while not emphasizing Malcolm's retraction of the statement.

I wonder why?????????????????????????????????????????

PEace
Solarus

"Activism is the practice of using an internal, self-determining source of power to live one's life and/or enact some sort of change. Power is the ability to define reality, while self-determination is to decide or define one's self. Therefore activism, is not simply something done to right some wrong or to fight some cause but rather it is a way of life. Activism is the way of life where one can define self and change anything that may impede or control the reality that one chooses to live."-Solarus

The "real world" is full of all kinds of people...Will a HBCU give you that experience? THe majority of people working in certain professional areas are white...if a person has never interacted with them it might be sort of a shock...either way
"while you pose for pictures, i'm the invisible enigma..."--Thought

Most black students today do not go to HBCUs. That's why many of them have shut down.

>basically the gist of it is...segregated
>schools of ANY measure (all
>white/all black/all latino) can never
>benefit ANYBODY.

Can never benefit? Oh, segregated schools have benefits that integrated schools generally don't. Being culturally affirmed is one of them. That's not really there in "integrated" schools, and that's an issue with students, teachers, and the administration. As a product of "integrated" schooling, I wish I had gone to an all black school in my formative years. Black History isn't that one day in February where your teacher talks about Martin Luther King and maybe Attucks and feels like she's accomplished something.

> Blacks that want
>to stay segregated and inferior
>feed right into the hands
>of right wing conservatives..socially and
>economically...
>not knocking HBCU's...but i know many
>a black student that would
>never attend one...and I think
>if you went to a
>lot of the innercity elementary
>schools in detroit you could
>see why (they are 95%
>black)....the almighty dollar. (now i'm
>speaking on historically segregated schools,
>as I have never been
>to a HBCU campus)...Segregated Public
>Schools lack in books/teachers/classrooms/supplies/technology...not to
>mention the lack of diversity....I
>think we all benefit from
>learning about others cultures and
>differences...tolerance per se.

Segregated public schools are segregated by districting. If you have no money, you can't move out of a poorer district into a richer one. You may not WANT to move from a black one to a white one because of intolerance. Integrated schools do not necessarily support tolerance, believe me. Mostly, what I've learned before college in school is an overload of information about white people, historically and culturally.

>I'd rather spend my time fighting
>for social and racial equality
>in ALL sectors of lower
>and higher education....blacks should not
>have to say "we'll need
>um"...blacks should have the equal
>opportunity to attend ANY damn
>school they want to...and if
>you choose a HBCU for
>whatever reasons you deem worthy...that
>should be YOUR choice....not what
>your forced to do because
>of fucked up social/societal system

As I said, most black students don't go to HBCUs. And I think a lot of people choose to go there for the affirmation that they can get. Plus, an education which is not necessarily inferior to those offered by "integrated" institutions, and I would argue that in some cases, maybe many, it is superior.




Yabbadabbadoozilla! (c) Bootzilla
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"You might as well pay attention/ you can't afford free speech" -George Clinton

"People need to stop saying that there is one way to be--and then the issue will disappear." Ntozake Shange-interview in _Mother_ _Jones_

>Can never benefit?

not never...but i feel most benefit more from an integrated schooling system..and NOT the kind you are refrencing..

Oh, segregated schools
>have benefits that integrated schools
>generally don't.

i don't think they outweigh the benefits of integrated schools..

Being culturally affirmed
>is one of them. That's
>not really there in "integrated"
>schools, and that's an issue
>with students, teachers, and the
>administration.

EXACTLY...if schools were TRULY integrated...all students would be taught ALL histories and cultural aspects..

As a product of
>"integrated" schooling, I wish I
>had gone to an all
>black school in my formative
>years. Black History isn't that
>one day in February where
>your teacher talks about Martin
>Luther King and maybe Attucks
>and feels like she's accomplished
>something.

that's not an integrated school....numbers don't equal a diverse cirriculum


>
>Segregated public schools are segregated by
>districting. If you have no
>money, you can't move out
>of a poorer district into
>a richer one.

NOT always true...especially in a racist society...go ask the realators why there are no black familys on a certain block or district (and it ain't cause they can't always afford them)...go ask mortgage brokers why black families aren't in certain school districts...given mortgages to buy those homes.



You may
>not WANT to move from
>a black one to a
>white one because of intolerance.
>Integrated schools do not necessarily
>support tolerance, believe me.

true...but i also belief that most of your tolerence and knowledge is learned OUTSIDE of the school/ experiencing social pressures and cultures from all angles...specially at a young impressionable age...


Mostly,
>what I've learned before college
>in school is an overload
>of information about white people,
>historically and culturally.


again, not an integrated school system


>As I said, most black students
>don't go to HBCUs. And
>I think a lot of
>people choose to go there
>for the affirmation that they
>can get. Plus, an education
>which is not necessarily inferior
>to those offered by "integrated"
>institutions, and I would argue
>that in some cases, maybe
>many, it is superior.

you use 'integration' from you experience..and I think from what you described..it wasn't neccesarily intergrated..is teaching all white ideologies your idea of integration? or just numbers alone?



Much love,
Kyle

****************************************
sellin' sigs since 1999
****************************************

What I'm saying is,
you probably can't find an integrated school in the country. If there were any, maybe you could argue for the end of HBCUs, but there aren't. And there probably won't be.

Yabbadabbadoozilla! (c) Bootzilla
http://www.funkknots.com
http://www.cartoonista.com
http://www.pocho.com

"You might as well pay attention/ you can't afford free speech" -George Clinton

"People need to stop saying that there is one way to be--and then the issue will disappear." Ntozake Shange-interview in _Mother_ _Jones_

Sorry I'm so pessimistic, but from where I stand now, any kind of equal education is basically a pipe dream that doesn't look to be moving to reality anytime soon. It doesn't mean we shouldn't work towards it, but that we should be realistic about the task at hand.

It just BES that way sometimes.

Yabbadabbadoozilla! (c) Bootzilla
http://www.funkknots.com
http://www.cartoonista.com
http://www.pocho.com

"You might as well pay attention/ you can't afford free speech" -George Clinton

"People need to stop saying that there is one way to be--and then the issue will disappear." Ntozake Shange-interview in _Mother_ _Jones_

there's not a school in this nation that is truly "integrated", just like UrbanCowgRRL said.

wake up.

L.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Homer: Do you wanna change your name to Homer, Jr? All the kids can call you HoJo!
Bart: uhh...I'll get back to you...

"how u gonna tell me to mind my biz/when you lookin like somethin I need to know about?"~~de la soul

"Ignorance: The Verbal Airborne Disease" (c) my friend Ty

"writer's block is a...I mean, it's like...uh...damn." ~~Me

>basically the gist of it is...segregated schools of ANY measure (all white/all black/all latino) can never benefit ANYBODY. Blacks that want to stay segregated and inferior feed right into the hands of right wing conservatives..socially and economically...<

Why would one consider an HBCU a segregated environment, b/c whites are not equally represented? I attended Howard in the late '80s, early '90s. Yes, the majority of students were African-American, but there were also students from other cultures. Does the fact that most of us had brown skin make it a segregrated environment? White people do not have to have a significant presence for there to be effective diversity (pluralism). Whites were adequately represented. A number of my professors were white.

>...went to a lot of the innercity elementary schools in detroit you could see why (they are 95% black)....the almighty dollar. (now i'm speaking on historically segregated schools, as I have never been to a HBCU campus)...Segregated Public Schools lack in books/teachers/classrooms/supplies/technology...not to mention the lack of diversity....I think we all benefit from learning about others cultures and differences...tolerance per se.<

I disagree with your logic. Comparing Howard University (& the like) to a Detroit public elementary school is a faulty analogy. As for diversity and tolerance, check my thoughts above.

Just thoughts.
peace.

K. Sue Jewell in From Mammy To Miss America says that while 80% of black students that attend HBCUs graduate, only 20% of black students who attend white colleges and universities do.


Yabbadabbadoozilla! (c) Bootzilla
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"You might as well pay attention/ you can't afford free speech" -George Clinton

"People need to stop saying that there is one way to be--and then the issue will disappear." Ntozake Shange-interview in _Mother_ _Jones_

Hell yeah we still "need" HBCUs! Actually, why wouldn't they be "needed?" This is college we're discussing, not an old pair of Lacoste pants that fit us when we were in the 6th grade.
Any institution of higher learning that can give us discipline in our studies and help us excel as human beings is definitely necessary.
And what is this concept of HBCUs not being integrated? Have you been to an HBCU lately? Do you know how many non-black students attend Southern University's Law School? It is regarded as one of the best in the country. Southern's undergraduate science programs are hot, too.
I am the only one out of my local circle of friends (except for a soror of mine that attended Clark)who attended an HBCU. Sometimes my friends make these stupid ass snide remarks about the perceived "less than quality" education that HBCU students receive. They say that our educations make us ill-prepared for the real world. Sadly, I think these statements are based on ignorance and bias. Ignorance comes into play when thinking that "the white man's ice is colder." Ice is ice, ya heard me?
I think that I had a quality education. 80% of my family members attended my alma mater, including my mom.
The teachers in my department (mass communications)were off the hook! They were live! They sought to instill in us the traits conducive to success in the tough (biased)world of mass media. Those of us who made it our life's volition to dismiss our instructors' advice had to repeat required courses, while the rest of us graduated in exactly 4 years.
These scenarios, those of students who do and don't do well in school for whatever reason, exist at all schools.
HBCUs gave me good legs to stand on. An HBCU humbled me. It reinforced the virtue of patience. It helped me learn more about black men. It made sure that when I wrote something, I proofread it carefully, because presentation is everything.
In short, it taught me lessons that I carry with me to this day. Most importantly, it showed me that I don't have to run to "the white man" to raise my esteem. HBCUs also showed me that it ain't all about step shows, football games, parties, beer busts and dancing to the latest bounce cut from Juvenile or DJ Jubilee with my roommates. Although those things were fun, real work (honing one's craft)was at the forefront of everything.
Please excuse this long diatribe. Obviously, I get kinda testy when people question the "validity" of HBCUs.

Yes, we need them and Black people need to have other options. An educational experience that works for one person may be detrimental to another. Personally, I don't think I would have thrived in a HBCU. The field and marketplace I had to enter upon graduation was/is populated mostly by white people. It was important for me to be exposed to white people on a day-to-day basis, in the dorm, in class, etc.

Another reason I would not have thrived is because I danced to the beat of my own drummer. I defined who I was as a Black person in context to my personal goals and experiences. The few experiences I had on predominantly Black college campuses was hurtful for me. There were conflicts relating to color, to family or background, to other superficial issues that I couldn't understand. I was learning more on my own about Black history and culture than the schools were teaching.

When I was a teenager, I started to look into the ethnic makeup of the boards of directors, the financial backers, etc. I was shocked to see that many of them where predominantly white. If this was so then how could HBCU's truly benefit Black students? Would white board members be able to appreciate and support real world education of Black students? I doubted it. So I went to a predominantly white college in the middle of a Black community, bordered by a large Jewish community and Italian community (Brooklyn, NY) and I became more socially aware and well-rounded as a result.

This is not to say that HBCU are not beneficial to some people. It just depends on their core developmental needs.

"Know thyself"

"Let your conduct be without covetousness; be content with such things as you have. For He Himself has said, "I will never leave you or forsake you". So we may boldly say, "The Lord is my helper, I will not fear. What can man do to me?"
-- Hebrews 13:5,6

"There is a difference between knowing the path and walking the path"
--Morpheus in "The Matrix"

"It's our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities"- Dumbledore to Harry Potter "Chamber of Secrets"

teaching.
>
>When I was a teenager, I
>started to look into the
>ethnic makeup of the boards
>of directors, the financial backers,
>etc. I was shocked
>to see that many of
>them where predominantly white.
>If this was so then
>how could HBCU's truly benefit
>Black students? Would white
>board members be able to
>appreciate and support real world
>education of Black students?
>I doubted it. So
>I went to a predominantly
>white college in the middle
>of a Black community, bordered
>by a large Jewish community
>and Italian community (Brooklyn, NY)
>and I became more socially
>aware and well-rounded as a
>result.


the same that said blacks couldn't go to school and forced HBCU's to even exist...

question...for anyone...

do you think HBCU's would exist if schools always excepted all races?

I think they still would exist.
If schools were perfect, maybe not. But they ain't.
When you get into a school, there's a very VERY *VERY* likely possibility that a lot of subtle racism is going on.


It just BES that way sometimes.

Yabbadabbadoozilla! (c) Bootzilla
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"You might as well pay attention/ you can't afford free speech" -George Clinton

"People need to stop saying that there is one way to be--and then the issue will disappear." Ntozake Shange-interview in _Mother_ _Jones_

You can let me in, and you can also do all that you can to discourage me from staying.

It just BES that way sometimes.

Yabbadabbadoozilla! (c) Bootzilla
http://www.funkknots.com
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"You might as well pay attention/ you can't afford free speech" -George Clinton

"People need to stop saying that there is one way to be--and then the issue will disappear." Ntozake Shange-interview in _Mother_ _Jones_

no doubt..

but when and how can we EVER change it?
get rid of the old boys system..change their ideologies..how you gonna do that?

Much love,
Kyle

****************************************
sellin' sigs since 1999
****************************************

that's why this is okayactivist:).
But what we can do now, will take time.
We need lawyers and laws, but we need more than that.
We need cultural transformation mostly.
And that's something hard to make happen. People of color have been working towards that since they got here. Unfortunately, we've got a considerable distance ahead of us.

Talking to people is one way, but are you sure they're listening?
It just BES that way sometimes.

Yabbadabbadoozilla! (c) Bootzilla
http://www.funkknots.com
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"You might as well pay attention/ you can't afford free speech" -George Clinton

"People need to stop saying that there is one way to be--and then the issue will disappear." Ntozake Shange-interview in _Mother_ _Jones_

Yes the schools would exist becasue white people have a domination complex problem, and are afraid of a level playing field.

No matter how much the darker populations increase, the white culture will never release power.



The history of the white culture is proof.

HBCU's would still exist because Women's colleges still exist, religious schools still exist, intolerant schools still exist
(Bob Jones U).

I really don't understand the whole 'HBCU's aren't like real life so they aren't good' when college in and of itself isn't like real life.

Also, what is your definition of integrated? What are it's benefits?

Personally, I think when it comes to integration, there really isn't much Whites can teach Blacks so the benefits are mostly one-sided anyway.

Except for a summer school course, I've always been in majority
Black educational institutions, and lived in majority Black areas. I really haven't learned anything from interacting with Whites since I left college that I didn't already know or was somehow surprised about.

Shaun G.

you are going to be around people of all races.....

you will need to learn how to succeed in spite of racism, prejudice and people thinking you're not up to the task.

you will need to be prepared and have the same tools your competitors do

It's a global economy and no race is an Island, keeping to ourselves makes it easier for Whites to dominate us.

In 2001, racism won't come on a burning cross...it's going to come from a bad review....rumours that you're not worthy from colleagues, white colleges prepare you for that.

Opression stops, or lessens when Blacks walk right into the White man's world and grab a BIG piece of the pie. Does an HBCU prepare you for that, by shielding you from the realities of the workplace it is supposedly preparing you to enter?

I'm sure that some of my co-workers call me "Nigger" behind my back. But they work for ME and know I'd fire their asses in a second if heard of it......

Maybe some of the higher ups do as well.....but they keep promoting me because they know they NEED my ass to succeed. They also know I can just leave and get a job someplace else, nor will I take any isht if they want to act ignorant. I feel a white school prepared me to be in this position, I don't think a Black school would have.

To be honest, coming from Suburbs I don't feel I would've fit in at a HBCU. To many Bammas trying to define their Blackness through superficial means instead of handlin their business and focusing on their own empowerment.

To be a success, you need to be able to thrive in Uncomfortable, Unfamiliar environments......an all white school fits the bill in that department. When you weight the fact that the white schools are better schools regardless...the descision becomes simple.

I think HBCUs should focus on raising their quality of education in a general sense, instead of trying to sell themselves on being able to shield you from racism.


lata

M2

Much love,
Kyle

****************************************
sellin' sigs since 1999
****************************************

I knew I shouldn't have read this before I went to work.

>you are going to be around
>people of all races.....
>

People know that before going to college. All the forms of media show you that. Even if you live in an all Black neighborhood, chances are you are going to have to interact with non-Black teachers, business owners, landlords, store workers.

It's very rare that a Black person can go 22-23 years of their lives without having to interact with non-Blacks especially if they are able to make it to college.

>you will need to learn how
>to succeed in spite of
>racism, prejudice and people thinking
>you're not up to the
>task.
>

They think that all the time in every other environment other than college. What makes racism and prejudice in college so much more enlightening?

>you will need to be prepared
>and have the same tools
>your competitors do
>
Except for latest technology what tools do White colleges have that Black colleges don't. For example, in computer science if you learn how to program in one language, it's not that big a leap to learn in another. Who cares if at MIT their learning to program in some language that won't become a standard in another two years?


>It's a global economy and no
>race is an Island, keeping
>to ourselves makes it easier
>for Whites to dominate us.
>

They've dominated us when we were slaves, when we were freed,
during before and after the civil rights acts of the 60's. What
makes going to a Black school worse than any other situation we are in?

>
>In 2001, racism won't come on
>a burning cross...it's going to
>come from a bad review....rumours
>that you're not worthy from
>colleagues, white colleges prepare you
>for that.
>

Wrong. Please tell me the Black college where you can be lazy and not have to drop out due to failing all your classes. Either you have never gone to a Black college or your situation was incredibly unique. Wake up, a lot of White people won't think you are worthy even if you graduate from Harvard with a 4.0.


>Opression stops, or lessens when Blacks
>walk right into the White
>man's world and grab a
>BIG piece of the pie.
>Does an HBCU prepare you
>for that, by shielding you
>from the realities of the
>workplace it is supposedly preparing
>you to enter?
>
>
You obviously have never gone to a HBCU. Please give examples of realities in the workplace that White schools prepare you for that is different than Blacks schools. You act like there is no competition for grades, or ass-kissing of teachers, or cliques in Black colleges.


I'm sure that some of my
>co-workers call me "Nigger" behind
>my back. But they work
>for ME and know I'd
>fire their asses in a
>second if heard of it......
>
>

What does this have to do with HBCU's? That just sounds like standard US racism to me.

>Maybe some of the higher ups
>do as well.....but they keep
>promoting me because they know
>they NEED my ass to
>succeed. They also know I
>can just leave and get
>a job someplace else, nor
>will I take any isht
>if they want to act
>ignorant. I feel a white
>school prepared me to be
>in this position, I don't
>think a Black school would
>have.
>

Well let me tell you you're wrong.


>To be honest, coming from Suburbs
>I don't feel I would've
>fit in at a HBCU.
>To many Bammas trying to
>define their Blackness through superficial
>means instead of handlin their
>business and focusing on their
>own empowerment.
>

Wrong. If you haven't gone to a Black school how would
you know? Like everybody who goes to a White school is
automatically down for the cause.


>To be a success, you need
>to be able to thrive
>in Uncomfortable, Unfamiliar environments......an all
>white school fits the bill
>in that department. When you
>weight the fact that the
>white schools are better schools
>regardless...the descision becomes simple.
>

Wrong once again. Give me proof that White schools are better.
The problem is that most of the time when people do this they compare the elite Ivy League schools or MIT type schools to HBCU.
Those schools are better than a majority of the White schools out there as well.


>I think HBCUs should focus on
>raising their quality of education
>in a general sense, instead
>of trying to sell themselves
>on being able to shield
>you from racism.
>

Wrong again. You really don't know what you're talking about.
Like Howard's slogan is "Scared of Whitey? We'll protect you from him!"

Shaun G.

not that HBCU's are inferior education/technology wise...
nobody is attacking you...
go read utamarhoo's comments about what really goes on behind them..

in the mean time, I'm going to try to go find the court documents and testimony of HBCU's opponants and proponants (if i can)..because I'm not gonna sit here and try to explain anything to you, (you'll just throw a fact that I've never attended one)...and on top of that you might even say that an 'expert's oppinion ain't jack either....

throwin' it out there

Much love,
Kyle

****************************************
sellin' sigs since 1999
****************************************

I think you'll find a lot of evidence to support Shawn,
In one of my classes, we talk about how black Americans are bicultural. We have to learn "the ways of white folk" well before college, in general. White people tend not to have to learn about people of color simply because that's not a priority for survival for most white people.

P.S. I don't go to a HBCU.

It just BES that way sometimes.

Yabbadabbadoozilla! (c) Bootzilla
http://www.funkknots.com
http://www.cartoonista.com
http://www.pocho.com

"You might as well pay attention/ you can't afford free speech" -George Clinton

"People need to stop saying that there is one way to be--and then the issue will disappear." Ntozake Shange-interview in _Mother_ _Jones_

It's sort of like this...
I go to a women's college.
I've been around men all my life. How is going to college to be around more men going to help me? There is a considerable amount of disadvantage:

1. considerably less women in leadership positions
2. male favoritism in class
3. just plain nastiness towards women by men
4. male-centered curriculm
5. pressure (if you're heterosexual) to be attractive to the men around you

etc.
You can make that argument for black people and whites.
Now add other ethnic groups to the mix and its different (its not necessary for black people to learn about Korean culture, for example, to survive, so it's a choice, plus noone is teaching it to K-12 it seems, and in college, you can choose not to take a Korean studies class if you don't want to.)I don't know any largely multi-ethnic schools, though.

It just BES that way sometimes.

Yabbadabbadoozilla! (c) Bootzilla
http://www.funkknots.com
http://www.cartoonista.com
http://www.pocho.com

"You might as well pay attention/ you can't afford free speech" -George Clinton

"People need to stop saying that there is one way to be--and then the issue will disappear." Ntozake Shange-interview in _Mother_ _Jones_

>not that HBCU's are inferior education/technology
>wise...
>nobody is attacking you...
>go read utamarhoo's comments about what
>really goes on behind them..

The post I replied too stated/implied that HBCU's are inferior to White schools. Coming from one (Howard '94) I was offended because I've heard the same reasoning from other people White and Black and from family members. It's rare that anyone who comes out against HBCU's has any facts to back themselves up.

>
>
>in the mean time, I'm going
>to try to go find
>the court documents and testimony
>of HBCU's opponants and proponants

I'm definitely interested in reading them.


>(if i can)..because I'm not
>gonna sit here and try
>to explain anything to you,
>(you'll just throw a fact
>that I've never attended one)

You don't think that's a legitmate point to make? You can't make statements about how White schools do this and Black schools
don't unless you've been to one or can at least give some documentation that can back you up.


...and
>on top of that you
>might even say that an
>'expert's oppinion ain't jack either....

It depends on the expert....


Shaun G.

I'ma let you decide these:

You wanna major in Economics where would be better?
Florida A&M or University of Illinois-Chicago?

You wanna be a doctor, so you know you gotta study biology and chemistry. So would you go to Tougaloo College in Mississippi or University of New Mexico?

See, alot of folks are only using a certain pool of schools. Upper echelon HBCUs and Ivy league-like institutions. No one has mentioned a school like SUNY-Purchase or Unversity of Arkansas-Pine Bluff. keep in mind that these schools come in to play in the college enrollment porcess as well. And many of these schools that have been failed to be recognized have VERY good programs in certain subjects, yet like other schools thye lack in other areas. Any educator will tell you that if you wanna study education to become a teacher or adminstrator that the University of Chicago is NOT the place to go. Simple as that because they do not have a a department of education and many of the teachers on subjects elated to the field are tenured from other disciplines. Yet, this is a good school right?




little......
*************************************
http://members.blackplanet.com/GrumpyBear/
*************************************

"Life's a bitch....BUT I LOVE THAT HOE!!!" (c) AVE

<li>The U. Mich issue: I don't think the potential end of AA is going to mean that Blacks are going to be denied access to secondary education...or that most will be. To say that means:
#1. Blacks can't get into good white schools
#2. HBCUs have lower standards.

While I do admit that a lot of Black students don't have access to the same level of education that white students do. I do think that there are a multitude of Black students that will still catch on somewhere. I do see the value of AA, but I'm not convinced that most Black students won't be able to get into the top schools.

I am concerned however, that some schools will use this ruling as an excuse to discriminate......

<li>I went to a mostly White Private School in the NE, and I plan on going to an Ivy to get my MBA. My choice was based on the quality of education, the possible contacts I could make and how potential employers would see my degree. (Most people don't think that last one counts, but it does...it opens doors...although once you're in the door..you have to make things happen)

The relevance of HBCUs was that at one time they were our ONLY choice, now this is no longer the case. For HBCUs to continue to be relevant, it is imperative that they raise their level of play and become educational institutions on par with the NYUs, the Standfords, The Columbias......and give Black students educational value besides....just being around around other Blacks.

If you ask me, the choice of colleges should be your stepping stone to building a career. Therefore, you want to get the best education possible. When you're in the classroom studying accounting, finance, engineering, psychology, biology, history, etc..you want the best people teaching you. You want to be around the countries brightest, and you want to be around a variety of people. In most cases HBCUs don't provid that (IMHO).

Even from a networking perspective, I don't think HBCUs compete..since a lot of the Top Black students attend mostly white schools.....and since I have no problem networking with whites as well.

From a real world perspective, Blacks are going to have to compete with whites....might as well get used to it in college. I don't care if you start your own business, or only work for Black owned companies...you will need to do business with whites, or sell to them if you are going to build an insitution, career, business..on par with the white ones. Even that the key to achieving real equality?

I'm not knocking anyone's choice of colleges, but for me HBCUs were not even an option. It wasn't about race, it was about the best education and what doors that education would open. Nor did I feel that I needed to be around all Blacks whilst in college, or fear losing my identity or to shield myself from White America. I intend to dominate in the Business world regardless of what my competition looks like...therefore I needed to get the best preparation. I don't regret my choice. Nor do I foresee myself regretting my choice when I go to an Ivy League for an MBA. Sense of self comes from within and from family......not from an HBCU.




Lata,





M2

I got the opportunity to attend a few days of the trial...and I must say...as much as we'd hope and think blacks wouldn't "need" aa to get into higher education...the numbers and hard facts get very disheartening...the rate at which they drop are INSANE...

University of Texas in Austin (I've lived there and this is one of the attitudes that you can TRULY feel within' the town)...after George W's Top 20 or whatever plan he intiated...UT Austin's Law school black attendees dropped to 4, 4 fucin' new students were admitted!!! to one of the nations top law schools!! are you telling me, mr. bush, that before you were just letting students in because they were black?? bullshit, law school grads still need great LSAT scores (which can also be argued against), good undergrad scores, great references, etc....now all of a sudden well prepared black students just don't exist? fuckin' old boy admission fucks...

And it doesn't stop there, California has had some dramatic affects, drops in latino/black admissions in it's more prestegious colleges (UCLA/ UCBerekly) have been bad...
Opponants of aa want to tell you that Asian American numbers at berekly have gone up so that's a good thing about the abolishment out there...*eyes roll*....san diego alone is larger than 50% latino, and yet the school enrollments of latino is around 5-8%!!!
Doesn't it make sense that the schools around you should at least look a *little* like the surrounding state that is funded by YOUR money? They are supposed to be shaping leaders for tommorow, but they look nothing like your neighbor....it's all pretty scary.

Much love,
Kyle

****************************************
sellin' sigs since 1999
****************************************

If there is a place in America for the Brigham Youngs, the Brandies Universities and all of the Catholic colleges in this country, including the one located in my city (Notre Dame), then there is a need for HCBUs. HCBUs do a far better job of graduating black students than do the predominatley white colleges. The majority of African-American students who receive post graduate degrees attended an HCBU at some point during their college careers. I think that more than 80 percent of African Americans who receive doctoral degrees attended an HCBU. So apparently, some of these schools are doing a good job. That being said, I think we have to decide if we really need to keep all of them open. HCBUs have to adhere to the same market forces as every other organization. And some of the schools that are not doing a good job of dealing that new market probably need to close. I know this is not a popular opinion, but I think that would be the best way to ensure that the ones that stay open - and there would still be about 100 public and private HCBUs - can better serve students. And at a time when affirmative action is being curtailed, we need strong, viable black schools. We need every public HCBU to be like Florida A.M. and every private HCBU to be like Spelman or Morehouse.

about HBCU's so don't talk. And from you statements you would have fit in well with the image that most HBCU administrations' wish to to promote.

PEace
Solarus

"Activism is the practice of using an internal, self-determining source of power to live one's life and/or enact some sort of change. Power is the ability to define reality, while self-determination is to decide or define one's self. Therefore activism, is not simply something done to right some wrong or to fight some cause but rather it is a way of life. Activism is the way of life where one can define self and change anything that may impede or control the reality that one chooses to live."-Solarus

And
>from you statements you would
>have fit in well with
>the image that most HBCU
>administrations' wish to to promote.


so HBCU's promote what you found to be completely inaccurate?..i'm confused..what kind of image are they promoting? In your honest opinion and y'all

The administration of HBCU's promote the image of Negroes (knee-grows) who will become part of the status quo and be GLOBAL and CULTURED (read: Extremely Western and European). However their remains a big schism between the administration and the faculty.

This is the beauty to be found in HBCU's. The administration literally puts you through hell (preparing Afrikans for Amerikkka) and the few BOUT IT faculty members tell their students that this is BS and actually teach. Some students either conform to the administration's wishes or they take the alternative route and seek the TRUTH. All the while one has peers going through the same experience and thus has support in realizing what must be accomplished. If you look and the national salaries between administration and faculty at HBCU's compared to predominantly White universities one sees that their is a HUGE gap between administration and professors. This is far greater than non-HBCU's and it shows on how the administration treats faculty members, particularly the "radical" ones.

Morehouse is nicknamed "the Black Havard" because the historical patriarch of the school Benjamin Mayes modeled the curriculum after Harvard back in the 20s. He promoted any associated with Europeans to the nth degree. Students were REQUIRED to take classes in Etiquette, Classical music, European history, etc. Anything Afrikan (American, Continental or otherwise) was downplayed. Gospel music, jazz, let alone ANYTHING from the Continent was belittle. The glee club was known for its superb rendition of European music. Only in 1996 was an Afrikan American studies major offered at Morehouse! This trend is not unlike other HBCU's as they were designed to make Afrikans more European in the first place. Thus HBCU's have ALWAYS made Afrikans capable of going into the "real world" (read Western dominated world).

this is why i said M2 is exactly the type of product that HBCU admin's desire and also why I said he DIDN'T KNOW SHIT!!!

Peace
Solarus

"Activism is the practice of using an internal, self-determining source of power to live one's life and/or enact some sort of change. Power is the ability to define reality, while self-determination is to decide or define one's self. Therefore activism, is not simply something done to right some wrong or to fight some cause but rather it is a way of life. Activism is the way of life where one can define self and change anything that may impede or control the reality that one chooses to live."-Solarus

No I'm afraid you don't know isht, I'm not the kind of person who forsakes his own culture for an european one...nor do I aspire to be white.

PLUS, going by your own post...HBCUs are just replicas of White Schools no? Specifically designed to trick Black students into attending so they can be "whitened"....since these schools are just copies of White Schools...they can be easily compared to White Schools...since they don't stack up in terms of education quality....I know all kinds of isht because apparently the White Schools are just better.

If I'm going to go with your definition...why go with a so/so copy of a white school, when I go to the original? Why go to Morehouse when I go to Harvard?

The point of my post, was that HBCUs aren't as good as White Schools..just because they have Black students, you've just helped me prove that since you've stated yourself that HBCUs are based on White Schools. Since it's the same thing, why go with the pretender?

I contend that YOU DON'T KNOW SHIT! How can shout my ignorance from the rooftops and then prove my point in the next sentence?


Lata,


M2

as the answer to your question on why HBCU's are beneficial is in there.

Read without being blinded by your emotions.

Also read "Fine."

PEace
Solarus

"Activism is the practice of using an internal, self-determining source of power to live one's life and/or enact some sort of change. Power is the ability to define reality, while self-determination is to decide or define one's self. Therefore activism, is not simply something done to right some wrong or to fight some cause but rather it is a way of life. Activism is the way of life where one can define self and change anything that may impede or control the reality that one chooses to live."-Solarus

why settle for the cheap imitation of the genuine and goto morehouse instead of harvard. if you wanna master this american game i say goto harvard and be the best american you can be. problem with black people is, they think they're still black after matriculation which is the furthest thing from the truth. they try though...true afrikan schools for afrikans to better afrikans are few, morehouse and negroes claiming their doing something are disillusioning themselves to reality.

oh and the (knee-grows) thing Solarus STOP THAT SHIT DAMMIT, i'm choking over here. and why is dear old morehouse still stuck in my head.

"REAL RECOGNIZE REAL, and even more than that, the fake, they REALLY REALLY recognize REAL!" -BlackThought

I knew of the historical context..but the African-American studies in 96!! damn..that's deep.

Much love,
Kyle

****************************************
sellin' sigs since 1999
****************************************

This is why it is so dangerous to rear the laundry in front of strangers....

peace...

Peace...

Morehouse College class of 00'

so all i get from that is that you graduated from a HBCU and you don't want to take time to intelligently reply, instead writing off someones views as "complete bullshit"...I hope 'they' aren't reading.



Much love,
Kyle

****************************************
sellin' sigs since 1999
****************************************

Everything stated in the post has been answered already.
Just making my opinion known in an impulsive fashion......

peace...

I feel so chided, I've been defeated...my views are all wrong. Game, Set & Match. Check & Mate. Curses FOILED AGAIN!

Straight Bullshit and I don't know shit, two of the most profound statements ever uttered from the mouth of any Human being..EVER!

I see now that I need to follow you, in order to know the true meaning of life. Can ya'll mentor a brotha?

Damn, I saw that subject line and thought you'd have something INTELLIGENT to say.


I'm out


M2

>While I do admit that a
>lot of Black students don't
>have access to the same
>level of education that white
>students do. I do think
>that there are a multitude
>of Black students that will
>still catch on somewhere.

Yeah and with little parental or community support many Black people will transcend substandard education and low expectations to thrive in college, whether it's a HBCU or not.

>I am concerned however, that some
>schools will use this ruling
>as an excuse to discriminate......

Of course they will.

From the HBCU's with their white boards and financiers to white schools with their white supremacist policies on education, there will always be something for Black people to transcend or overcome.

>If you ask me, the choice
>of colleges should be your
>stepping stone to building a
>career. Therefore, you want to
>get the best education possible.

Don't get it twisted. Post-secondary education is a choice for everyone. HBCU is an option, just like going to a IVY league university. My sister went to only IVY league schools and it was detrimental to her well-being and only a little helpful after she graduated with her masters.

She got jobs with major companies but she was still a quota. She got in the door but once she was in she could not progress and she was mistreated in almost every single case. Sure, an Ivy league education looks good on paper but in the real marketplace, it means nothing. To many employers Black is still Black, regardless of your education.

I chose Pratt because it was in NYC (Brooklyn) and it was a prestigious art school. It looks good on paper but it is also in a Black neighborhood so I was able to find my niche right outside the gates of the school. I was able to speak my mind and challenge my educators, while getting support from the community-at-large. I was dealing with and competing with whites on a regular basis and still felt connected with Black folks.

I think it's dangerous to say that HBCUs don't prepare Black people for the real world. There are always exceptions and some Black people do not get support from their familes or communities of origin. I also think it's wrong to think that HBCUs are the only option for Black people. No matter how people cut it, college education in the US needs to be re-assesed and changed.

It's just a personal choice based on individual need.


"Know thyself"

"Let your conduct be without covetousness; be content with such things as you have. For He Himself has said, "I will never leave you or forsake you". So we may boldly say, "The Lord is my helper, I will not fear. What can man do to me?"
-- Hebrews 13:5,6

"There is a difference between knowing the path and walking the path"
--Morpheus in "The Matrix"

"It's our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities"- Dumbledore to Harry Potter "Chamber of Secrets"

I agree with your post, it really comes down to what's best for you. I know White people who went to Ivy League schools who haven't had a decent paying job in almost ten years. So the school isn't really the deciding factor in determining your potential success, but it can open some doors....it can look good to potential colleagues/employers and it can have an affect. In the end, it's up to you.

To may way of thinking, education is an objective thing (although that can change depending on what you're studying) I don't care who my classmates are, who my professors are, or where the school is located my concerns are more along the lines of: "What is the value in what you're teaching me?" How can I use this later in life?

In keeping with this theory of objectivity, let me give you some insight into how I selected my Undergraduate school and how I selected my Graduate school.

FYI: I was planning on being an Engineering Major, but I was also interested in Computer Science, Finance & Accounting.

The following two things were absolute requirements, didn't have it I wasn't going.

#1. School had to provide the majors I was interested in
#2. School had to be ranked in the top 50 (E.g. Tier 1) overall and in the top 30 for my major(s).
#3. The school needed to have a good reputation in the industry, merely saying you went to that school needed to carry some weight.
#4. Equipment, being a engineering major I wanted to work with cutting edge stuff. I also wanted professors that were movers and shakers in the industry and were still active from a research standpoint. I didn't want a school with sub-par equipment and professors who weren't doing much of anything.

FWIW, I didn't neccessarily rank equipment by school or rank professor's research projects. BUT, if the professors were involved in developing technology for other corporations and the school made an effort to have the best equipment it could get
it's hands on. That was enough to meet the req.

#5. Business School: What kinda jobs did these folks have in industry? The idea was that I wanted to learn finance from someone who has/could work in the NYC financial district, not somone who has a degree and no real world experience.

Ok, so if a school met these reqs...I knew that I could get involved in research..maybe even grab a patent or two before I graduated. I also gave schools bonus points based on the level of ownership that students had in their patents and what not. Since the professors were involved in research that meant that they were players no?

I know the business folks knew their stuff, and could be depended on to provide real world insight. I also knew that I could meet some illustrious alumni, that the alumni gave back to the school (a sure sign that they appreciate the education they got) The school had a reputation, I'd get to work with top notch equipment and it was one of the top schools in the country.


Next Set of Reqs:

-Avg. SAT Scores
-Avg. Salaries of Students upon Graduation
-What % of students have jobs after Graduation
-What companies actively recruit on campus
-Internship and Co-Op opportunities
-Athletics, doesn't have to be a top program...but I need to be able to compete against the best as well as having a good coach.
-Location: Had to be the North East (Which to me is DC to Boston) BUT, I wanted to be no farther away then 60-70 miles from a Major city..for future job, internship and entertainment concerns. However, I didn't want to go to school IN a major city.

After that I kinda evaluated each school on the basis of:

Do I want to go there? Just a gut emotional Rank....

Ok, the list:

Colgate
Syracuse
Princeton
Lehigh U.
MIT
Harvard
Carnegie Mellon
Yale
Georgetown
Villanova (Kinda an * school, #1 Regional college..and wasn't included in the national rankings)

Ok, MIT looks like a bomb shelter and I really don't like Boston...Harvard..again Boston...and I dunno...didn't like the Vibes..too elitist for my tastes.

Yale, too close to family......the point of college is to get away and expand your Horizons not live near a bunch of your relatives.

Carnegie Mellon - Too far away from the Boston - DC corridor.

Georgetown - I'm not a big fan of DC...wanted a more suburban setting

Villanova - Catholic School, I don't like schools with any sort of Ideology be it religious, gender, or race. I think the point of college is to spend 4 years with people who are very different from you, have different perspectives, ideologies, experiences and lives.

So we were down to Princeton, Lehigh, Syracuse and Colgate. Princeton and Lehigh were better schools...so it was down to them. In the end, I picked Lehigh because I just well...liked it...and it they had an outstanding track coach...and I felt his style would fit in with me. There were some other academic opps as well...and the fact that Lehigh does well in the inventor thing or whatever every year at the smithsonian. (Better then princeton

Right now, I'm doing it all over again for an MBA with the added factor of cost. No where close to being done with my evaluation though. BUT, again I gotta go with the top schools...both in terms of the connections I'll make and so I can see a big enough boost in my income to make it worth it financially. I know a tech recruiter, easily one of the best around...and he gave me his opinion of MBAs, which I've found is shared by a lot of his peers. "MBAs don't mean much, unless it's from an Ivy, MIT, Stanford, Berkely, Duke, or the Universities or Rochester or Chicago" School is expensive, how can I justify spending money on 1 school if another gives me more value?

In any event, ya'll can curse at me all you want. BUT, just in pure education value...I don't think HBCUs are as good. Nor do I think just having Black professors and classmates makes up for it. I don't think you won't be prepared for the real world in an HBCU, or that you can be lazy, or anything like that. I just think that the so called "white schools" are better schools...it's not about race. Just because it's Black doesn't make it better..or worse excuse it for not being as good. No HBCU has convinced me that I should get my MBA there instead of Harvard or Columbia...that's why they aren't on my list.

I think HBCUs need to raise the level of play to make them on par with those schools.

As for graduation rates, all the Black kids I want to school with graduated within 5 years...the ones that didn't...didn't graduate from Lehigh because they transferred to another school. I think 20% isnt' correct in terms of graduation rates from non HBCUs....so I'm going to check on that myself.


Lata,


M2

Noone is hating one you because of that but when you make statements like

"BUT, just in pure education value...I don't think HBCUs are as good."

That is where you fuck up. Maybe in YOUR AREA those schools were better but in my graduate program Developmental psychology focusing on Black child development, no Ivy league school could match this institution considering that much of the research in this area has been done by those associated with Howard. Also research centers that focus on this are here including a huge population from which to gather data from.

Your condemnation of HBCU is not at all "objective" (as there is truly no such thing) because you are looking at it from one standpoint AND you condemn it on FALSE assumptions that show you really don't know what you are talking about.

PEace
Solarus

"Activism is the practice of using an internal, self-determining source of power to live one's life and/or enact some sort of change. Power is the ability to define reality, while self-determination is to decide or define one's self. Therefore activism, is not simply something done to right some wrong or to fight some cause but rather it is a way of life. Activism is the way of life where one can define self and change anything that may impede or control the reality that one chooses to live."-Solarus

If I compare all of Howards programs to Princeton's, and the final score is Princeton 40 Howard 5..which school is better?

Maybe a blanket statement that non HBCUs are always better then HBCUs aren't accurate, but if it is in a general sense or for the examples I give...how would I not know what I'm talking about?



Peace Out,


M2

Who is measuring the curriculum????
Define a good education.....

What do you think the people who graduate HBCU's become after they graduate????
Where do you think most Fortune 500 companies go when they want their quota of negroes???
Who many successful Negroes do you know????
Show me the success stories of HBCU graduates in comparison to graduates of other institutions of higher learning... How are these individuals more successful????
Again I ask by what measures????

peace...

None of the Blacks I work with went to a HBCU

Being hired to fill a Quota Vs. Being hired to do a job are two different things. They go to HBCUs to fill their Quotas because everyone is Black...and they couldn't do it someplace else. If you're hired to fill a Quota..will you really thrive there?

Black enterprise had a list of the 50 most powerful Blacks in Corporate America.... 6 or 12% had attended a HBCU Vs. 15 or 30% at Ivy Leagues.

One that list, 4 Brothas were either Fortune 500 CEOs or were in line to be. (2 have since resigned) None of them had attended a HBCU.

I don't think you can't be successful if you attend a HBCU, I just think you can MORE successful if you don't....and I've admitted that school isn't the ultimate determinant of how successful you'll be. BUT, I aim for the top...I settle for nothing less...I need every advantage I can get.

Peace Out,


M2

1. If you black you are filling a quota.. then prove it to them after that...
2. Many heads of an organization attended some kind of HBCU, Fannie Mae ring a bell, The first black firm on WallStreet, McClendon and Associate, Morehouse grad, that is another issue...

3. I have friends at almost every major firm on Walstreet, Solomon Smith Barney, Goldman Sachs, ect ect. My Spelman sista works for Chase and is in England as I speak. I have a friend who is a contestant on Survivor, who wears his Morehouse T-shirt on every show, guess what law school he attends. I bring these points to you just to illustrate that your brand of success can be found at HBCU more often than at a majority institution...

Make note I said your brand of success....

4. It is bigger than that education you seek, but then again it is not for you anyway...

peace..

This is not about My School Vs. Your School!

I didn't say you couldn't be successful...I just say the chances are better IMHO! Stop seeing this as an attack!

I can name Blacks that went to a Majority school(my classmates)..that are doing the SAME THINGS your friends are doing...going to a Majority institution isn't going to hurt you career wise.

In my travels as a consultant working almost exclusively in the Fortune 200, I met more Blacks who attended Majority Schools. When I read about a successful Black exec, he typically went to a Majority school, or a combination of HBCU & Majority.

Now I do meet Blacks who went to HBCUs, and they're doing just fine. I just don't feel it's the best way or the only way to go. Just like I could get an MBA from U. Washington...and do better then a Harvard Man...doesn't mean that Harvard wouldn't have been a better choice.


Ok; I've had enough of this crap. GO TO THE SCHOOL YOU CHOOSE TO GO TO! Enough of this school vs. school nonsense. Don't pick one because it's Black, don't pick one because it's white.

Maybe one day, Moorehouse will be a recognized as a top school period and we can stop having this argument.

BTW, Franklin Raines runs Freddie Mac not Fannie Mae (people often get them confused) and he went to Harvard & Oxford. To my knowledge a white dude runs Fannie Mae.

Peace Out,

M2

relook at Fannie Mae......
it's a brother.....

You're right, I apoligize. I was the one with Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae confused. Anyway Franklin Raines is the brotha, and I was right that he is a Harvard graduate.

Peace,


M2

If you're a black chemistry major, you're going to be pushed into working for a white chemical company.

If you're a black sociology major, you're going to find work at a government headed by white folks, or have to beg and plead for grant money from said white folks.

If you're a black business major, you're going to find work at a business headed by white folks.

Very few degrees give you any independence from having to work for white folks. Doctors, Criminal/personal injury defense attorneys,....But if I were a mechanical engineer, I can't just open up an office on Main Street and expect business. I'm a political scientist (according to my degree), I can't go anywhere expound on Mill or Rosseau and have someone pay me for it.

Colleges prepare you for very specialized niche roles in our economy. Black folks need to think bigger than that.

peace
k. orr

College degrees are like driver's licenses but it's what one does with the car that makes the difference. Where are you all driving? What direction are ya'll going in? These are most important questions, not always what kind of school you went to.

Okay, so you got your Ivy league education or your degree from a HBCU. So, now, what are you going to do with that piece of paper beyond the resume? Hardly any college prepares people for the next step, especially in terms of personal goal setting and development.

"Know thyself"

"Let your conduct be without covetousness; be content with such things as you have. For He Himself has said, "I will never leave you or forsake you". So we may boldly say, "The Lord is my helper, I will not fear. What can man do to me?"
-- Hebrews 13:5,6

"There is a difference between knowing the path and walking the path"
--Morpheus in "The Matrix"

"It's our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities"- Dumbledore to Harry Potter "Chamber of Secrets"

that schools create is unparalled...

whites have the luxury of having many friends in higher positions of power (usually cause they have white faces just like their own)...and lets just say one was to lose their job...and was having a hard time finding one....is that graduate EVER really faced with hardships? they could always call up one of their college chums and you KNOW a job would be 'found' for them...the good ol' boy system....no matter HOW broke or poor they might look...there is a society and a system that that graduate can always be accepted back into and found belonging too...priviledge...period.


a white graduate is never broke...


I'm going to speculate (sarcasm) that no matter how many successful graduates you have from HBCU's...there will never be a priviledge ladder system like that...it takes leaders and power positions to trickle down so that others can see potential...i'm just not seeing that in segregated schools. (again, my dealings with K-12 in detroit)


Much love,
Kyle

****************************************
sellin' sigs since 1999
****************************************

You've really contradicted yourself here.

>that schools create is unparalled...
>
>whites have the luxury of having
>many friends in higher positions
>of power (usually cause they
>have white faces just like
>their own)...and lets just say
>one was to lose their
>job...and was having a hard
>time finding one....is that graduate
>EVER really faced with hardships?
>they could always call up
>one of their college chums
>and you KNOW a job
>would be 'found' for them...the
>good ol' boy system....no matter
>HOW broke or poor they
>might look...there is a society
>and a system that that
>graduate can always be accepted
>back into and found belonging
>too...priviledge...period.
>
>
>a white graduate is never broke...
>
>
>
>I'm going to speculate (sarcasm) that
>no matter how many successful
>graduates you have from HBCU's...there
>will never be a priviledge
>ladder system like that...it takes
>leaders and power positions to
>trickle down so that others
>can see potential...i'm just not
>seeing that in segregated schools.
>(again, my dealings with K-12
>in detroit)


So what will integration do? A good ol' boy will not give you any support if you're at his institution, or you're at Howard if you're black. Even if you get a college friend to help worm your way in, that company is probably more likely to deny your friend's rec, I'm sure.


It just BES that way sometimes.

Yabbadabbadoozilla! (c) Bootzilla
http://www.funkknots.com
http://www.cartoonista.com
http://www.pocho.com

"You might as well pay attention/ you can't afford free speech" -George Clinton

"People need to stop saying that there is one way to be--and then the issue will disappear." Ntozake Shange-interview in _Mother_ _Jones_

if blacks grew up..and i don't mean FORCED to go to school together..with whites..from the time they're like 2...and there were no white flight and shit..

you can't tell me that the good ol boy's barriers *might* get broken down a bit....where do we start changing ideologies?

Much love,
Kyle

****************************************
sellin' sigs since 1999
****************************************

it's about cultural ideology.

race has no factor in different cultural ideologies?

Much love,
Kyle

****************************************
sellin' sigs since 1999
****************************************

is a phenotypical grouping of individuals, nothing more, nothing less.

However this grouping has historically been a good indicator of those persons adhering to differing cultural ideologies or worldviews but this is not the case anymore. Afrikans (by race) are just as, if not more European (in culture) than Europeans. This was my point about the ultimate goal of most HBCU's (and all other American institutions of "higher learning" for that matter): Putting out highly-Europeanized Black people.

Peace
Solarus

"Activism is the practice of using an internal, self-determining source of power to live one's life and/or enact some sort of change. Power is the ability to define reality, while self-determination is to decide or define one's self. Therefore activism, is not simply something done to right some wrong or to fight some cause but rather it is a way of life. Activism is the way of life where one can define self and change anything that may impede or control the reality that one chooses to live."-Solarus

using 'race' in it's historical/societal/educational sense for this discussion...because most don't realize it's true meaning...

cultural ideologies is the bases of this discussion right here.

Much love,
Kyle

****************************************
sellin' sigs since 1999
****************************************

just look at the cultural differences we have with M2 (the new expertise) while he makes points about race, we see the underlying asili of why his position is european rhetoric at its best. we need not argue his peripheral points becasue we disagree fundamentally. this is a cultural conversation, not racial one. (((((PEACE)))))


"REAL RECOGNIZE REAL, and even more than that, the fake, they REALLY REALLY recognize REAL!" -BlackThought

That's not reality, though.
Lo siento.

Talk to more black people who have grown up in white neighborhoods.

It just BES that way sometimes.

Yabbadabbadoozilla! (c) Bootzilla
http://www.funkknots.com
http://www.cartoonista.com
http://www.pocho.com

"You might as well pay attention/ you can't afford free speech" -George Clinton

"People need to stop saying that there is one way to be--and then the issue will disappear." Ntozake Shange-interview in _Mother_ _Jones_

>if blacks grew up..and i don't
>mean FORCED to go to
>school together..with whites..from the time
>they're like 2...and there were
>no white flight and shit..
>
I'm not waitin for that at all, I know where that goes, I grew up in Southfield, and as I recall you're from Detroit(or the area or something) so you know the situation, very few blakcs in the high schools 10 years ago, now both schools more than 2/3 black at least, and the administration is fucking around with the curriculum claiming that some students just don't have what it takes to go to college. (Not saying thats not true of SOME, but this was never said when the school was majority white.)






>
>you can't tell me that the
>good ol boy's barriers *might*
>get broken down a bit....where
>do we start changing ideologies?
>
>
>Much love,
>Kyle
>
>****************************************
>sellin' sigs since 1999
>****************************************


*********
You know why I don't have time for you?

Because I only have one lifetime to change the world, and there's not enough time in the world for me to change your life. - Me, keepin it really real (and throwin stiff arms, spin moves, and the patented hellacious headfake at the haters, fakers, jockers and hangers-on) since 1982

Quit speculaing because you simply don't KNOW.

"I'm going to speculate (sarcasm) that no matter how many successful graduates you have from HBCU's...there will never be a priviledge ladder system like that...it takes leaders and power positions to trickle down so that others can see potential...i'm just not seeing that in segregated schools. "

There ARE privilege ladder systems to be found at HBCU's JUST like at predominantly white institutions. In fact they are MODELED AFTER their European counterparts. Is this a good thing? NO!!! Ask any Black Greek if there is a "good ol boy system." Hell ask a Morehouse man if he couldn't get hooked up simply because he went to Morehouse ESPECIALLY if he fits the image (suit and tie).

That is the problem HBCU's are TOO MUCH like European institutions in ideology but it smack us in the face all the time because we can SEE we are being gross by imitating Europeans. Most choose to ignore it and go along with business as usual. HBCU's can put out WHITER black people BETTER than Ivy league institutions.

PEace
Solarus

"Activism is the practice of using an internal, self-determining source of power to live one's life and/or enact some sort of change. Power is the ability to define reality, while self-determination is to decide or define one's self. Therefore activism, is not simply something done to right some wrong or to fight some cause but rather it is a way of life. Activism is the way of life where one can define self and change anything that may impede or control the reality that one chooses to live."-Solarus

"HBCU's can put out WHITER black people BETTER than Ivy league institutions."

I don't know.. this seems more like a family issue being discussed on the boards.....
Maybe it should be in the family...

peace...

"REAL RECOGNIZE REAL, and even more than that, the fake, they REALLY REALLY recognize REAL!" -BlackThought

"Activism is the practice of using an internal, self-determining source of power to live one's life and/or enact some sort of change. Power is the ability to define reality, while self-determination is to decide or define one's self. Therefore activism, is not simply something done to right some wrong or to fight some cause but rather it is a way of life. Activism is the way of life where one can define self and change anything that may impede or control the reality that one chooses to live."-Solarus

99% of these people are talking outside SOMEONE ELSE'S behind

this is wearing me out

that was the (sarcasm) in that statement my friend!
didn't you already see where I stated that George Dubya's and Jeb's LOVE HBCU's??? Right wing conservatists LOVE HBCU's...i agree with you there....

also, I think you and M2 are basically arguing some very similar points.

Much love,
Kyle

****************************************
sellin' sigs since 1999
****************************************

Hotep

"didn't you already see where I stated that George Dubya's and Jeb's LOVE HBCU's??? Right wing conservatists LOVE HBCU's...i agree with you there...."

But the Bush's DO love HBCU's because they know overall how effective they have been in putting out good Negroes (knee-grows)

In the past five years, two HBCU graduates have been made Rhodes Scholars. How European do you have to be to receive this award? VERY!! Therefore HBCU's have been doing a good job. (Also let's not look into the history of the Bush family and Cecil Rhodes who the award was named after as we will see some deep-rooted connection beween the two i.e. Skull-n-bones and Roundtable... but you didn't hear that from me.)

This is why I didn't catch the sarcasm because the statement you made is very true.


PEace
Solarus

"Activism is the practice of using an internal, self-determining source of power to live one's life and/or enact some sort of change. Power is the ability to define reality, while self-determination is to decide or define one's self. Therefore activism, is not simply something done to right some wrong or to fight some cause but rather it is a way of life. Activism is the way of life where one can define self and change anything that may impede or control the reality that one chooses to live."-Solarus

for every network of black folks who are wanna-bes at HBCUs, there's a circle of black folks with revolutionary ideas connecting thoughts and building as well, you dig? we got republicans, future revolutionaries, good samaritans, money grubbers, every kind of cat/clique at HBCUs.

I have gone to Howard (undergrad, then law school) since 93, with a year of working 97-98 school year.

I have seen the best and worse of it.

The good: like-minded black folks who want to help the community get to connect and build with other young black folks with various skills sets (ex: computer programming cat meets business student, they found Internet start-up together, whatever). If you believe in black capitalism or whatever, it's popping at HBCUs, for *some* (a lot of people just want gigs, though, like every other college).

The bad: assimilationist cats without much community consciousness or cats just there for the pussy (pun intended). Not that you can't be a little bit of this AND the above category (see Puffy, who went to Howard for three semesters and who runs Daddy's House (good) while pumping bullshit out of Bad Boy (not so good)).

I think HBCUs are a great place for young black intellectuals to connect and build with a racially conscious backdrop.

The girls look good as hell too. ;-)

Thoughtfully yours,

Spirit

COMICS ARTIST NEEDED!!!!!!!! INBOX ME!!!!!

http://www.mp3.com/miscellaneousflux -
Just listen, you will believe...

"I don't denounce writtens, but freestyling at its essence is improvising. It's spontaneous, uncut, mind, thought, travel, energy - all at the same time...the thing is to be at a peak where your freestyle sounds like your writtens and vice versa" - Aceyalone on freestyling (Rappages, Sept. 95)

My little Private Northeastern School...(Lehigh) has old Money, Privelage and rich White Boy written all over it. It was full of em', we had the sons/daughters of Fortune 500 execs, CEOs, Sports Team owners and politicans.

The old Alumni were always around, always giving back (we're second in the nation in Alumni support) some old dude gave 25 mill to the school a year or so ago.


BUT, I know a TON of Broke Ass White Graduates. Why? Because the kid with connections like a George W. Bush is a rariety...even in a world of the offspring of millionaires. I know kids whose parents are loaded...who are barely making it, don't have jobs, living at home, struggling to find a job. OR are keeping their current job until they can find something better, even if they hate it.

SO the idea that all affluent White Kids live in this privelaged world, where everything is handed to them and they'll never have to worry about a job is a myth, nothing more...those kinda of kids are a rariety...probably a great less then 1/2% of any schools populaion. YES, they do have more connections then the avg, black kid and they can use those to get a job. BUT, these kids are my friends..and I know too many of them that are struggling.

While I will admit that a lot of them got help with some startup money, car co-signage and what not that a lot of Blacks don't get. They are still struggling and trying to carve out a life like the Black kids I went to school with. So they may have gotten to start out with a better car or apt, but 4 years after graduation...I see everyone just trying to make it.

If White Grads are never broke, what the hell is wrong the kids I went to school with? AND, why is My black behind doing better then most of them..with my own network....even though they have better ones?....maybe it's not as simple as race?


Maybe Mom will help out in a pinch, or you can crash at Mommas house....but these kids are still struggling...except for a small number of people...at some point you do have to succeed on your own

This kinda irks me, because this was at the root of most of the racial divison on my schools campus. The Black kids thinking that the White kids looked down on them because the majority of them got financial aid (just like the white kids) and the Black kids thinking that the white kids would just get things handed to them...(which they didn't). I mean the white kids weren't innocent too...but a gross misconception is a gross misconception.



Lata,


M2

of why Black Colleges are needed.....

peace...

Why? Because of Blacks arguing on discussion boards? Or because we don't have a huge power network?

In any event, I've spent too much time on this topic and this getting out of hand. So I'll just say this...

My goals in life are to become an executive, a CIO and then a CEO at a Fortune 500 firm (be it white owned, Black owned or M2 owned) do that for a few years..and then go off on my own.

Looking at the list of the top 50 Blacks in corporate America, only 6 went to an HBCU, 15 have at least 1 degree from an Ivy League school. With their average age being 54 (range of 42 - 66) a lot of these Brothas and Sistas came of age when HBCUs were a lot more relavant then they were now. Looking at the stats, it occurs to me that HBCU aren't producing leaders like the white schools are. That's all I really want to say about that.

As for corporate America, while it does depend on the company...I don't think it's as racist as most of the posters think. Just based on my own experience, I see racists...but it doesn't seep over into their dealings with me...or they figure hell he can make us money forget about it. 7.6% of all Middle and higher managers & execs in America are Black...not bad considering from where we came from...and that number has increased 50% in the last 10 years. We're actually not to far away from having representation in those ranks thats equal to our % of the population. The ceiling is no longer concrete....it's glass...and you can break glass...

Another thought: Jews arent't really popular amongst most corporate types either...but it doesn't hold them back much.

Lata,


M2

SOLARUS SAID THIS EARLIER:

"It's not about race"
it's about cultural ideology.

I would add:

"It's not about economics/education/imitating or starting a fortune 500"

it's about cultural ideology.

all of your points are from the perspective of someone playing within the game and frankly I and others(afrikan thinkers) are here to destroy it (idealistically) that's all there is to it. so while you make points about racism/money and quote stats we look at the cultural core of what you're talking about. even in its best scenario, blacks gaining economic/educational/civil rights status in this country will still be African-Americans and until the last part of that hyphenated word is dropped, there will be problems. HBCU's are not afrikan centered and being so gravitate toward the later part of that hyphenated word, AMERICANS.

ya' know, I shouldn't respond to this...but I've had enough fake ass revolutionaries..talkin out their ass about a system they barely understand...

I'll be interested to see if you have a better system, or if you'll even implement it.

It's not the system it's the people running it....

Blacks will always be hated...so let's focus on empowering Blacks...so we can be hated but not hurt.

We can't really change what's in people's hearts....we can't change attitudes...but we can empower ourselves so their attitudes can't hurt us...which will decrease some racism..but overall....if we're in a position where we cannot be oppressed...who cares?

This destory the system stuff, sounds like the infantile tirades of someone hurt by something he doesnt' understand..so his first instinct is to destroy it. Wait..isn't that what Whites did when they invaded half the planet?

Hmm, maybe this is coming from the perspective of..."Why aren't I the dominant one?"

And uh, you're an American..get over it.

>>It's not the system it's the people running it....

you must really cherish this way of life. thing is it's not living.

>>but overall....if we're in a position where we cannot be oppressed...who cares?

because the problem IS the system which like pollutants seeping into the water table, has polluted a people. and this past "if we're in a position where we cannot be oppressed...who cares?
" ...ummm, the next group of people who you'll oppress.

thanks for playing. for real is this expertise?

No, expertise would post under his own name.

I'm M2 damnit.


I seem to be enjoying myself..so I think this is living.


The problems of the Black people are rooted in economics, namely being at the whim of economics and not being in control of them.

I think the answer is to take control of the machine and make it work in our favor, not destory the machine itself. E.g. Economic Empowerment...not whatever the hell it is you're preaching.

They are people in this country who have never been opressed because they sit at the controls, I intend to get at those controls my damn self so future generations can feel the same way.

I don't try to play games, I try to BE THE GAME! There is a significant difference from someone who wants to be a middle manager their whole life and get downsized at age 50 with no real savings (like the average american regardless of race) then someone like me, who has planned on being financially independent at age 45..and will be the person who works because they want to....and has businesses that make money for HIM!

There may be an American Game, but I intend to play it better. Think of it along the lines of only Whites played B-Ball when it was invented...and Blacks dominate it now. The concept of America is that ALL races can enjoy success, racist whites have prevented that from happening...but not on my watch.

Just because I want to play the game doesn't mean I deny my Blackness, don't seek to fight racism, want to be white, or anything like that. I just see a MUCH bigger picture and the true root of Black America's problems then you do.


Peace Out,



P.S. Old Boondockers would laugh that you would call me Expertise, as many times as he and I have argued.

M2

>>I seem to be enjoying myself..so I think this is living.

americans who sit back on vacation in third world countries oblivious to the real world while sipping on lemonade


>>The problems of the Black people are rooted in economics, namely being at the whim of economics and not being in control of them.

famouse saying: that which has enslaved you can never make you free

>>I think the answer is to take control of the machine and make it work in our favor, not destory the machine itself. E.g. Economic Empowerment...not whatever the hell it is you're preaching.

economic empowerment cool, continuing this culture, this machine. blacks (american negroes) in control of an idustry that has been polluting the world will continue to do so, its the asili (core ideology)

>>They are people in this country who have never been opressed because they sit at the controls, I intend to get at those controls my damn self so future generations can feel the same way.

WOW! the system will still live just another westerner at the controls.

>>I don't try to play games, I try to BE THE GAME! There is a significant difference from someone who wants to be a middle manager their whole life and get downsized at age 50 with no real savings (like the average american regardless of race) then someone like me, who has planned on being financially independent at age 45..and will be the person who works because they want to....and has businesses that make money for HIM!

sorry i said game

>>There may be an American Game, but I intend to play it better. Think of it along the lines of only Whites played B-Ball when it was invented...and Blacks dominate it now. The concept of America is that ALL races can enjoy success, racist whites have prevented that from happening...but not on my watch.

blacks and basketball!?! just sad, the repercussions of such an activity, i.e. getting good/being the best at something so trivial...this is not afrikan! provide your own food before you pick up a basketball. these players are rich but their money only works here, WITHIN the GAME, create self sufficient industries for cryin out loud.

>>Just because I want to play the game doesn't mean I deny my Blackness, don't seek to fight racism, want to be white, or anything like that. I just see a MUCH bigger picture and the true root of Black America's problems then you do.

ohhhh, black america, in that case you're right. i'm ouot to liberate afrikans and afrikan thinkers, my bad. the negroes aspiring to master the game are in another category. americans.

Heheh, you're on that silly ass "Noble Savage" bullisht..acting like Africans were perfect and didn't do anything wrong and capitalism was an evil brought by the whites.

Western African empires prized gold and sold it Europe...

The Moors (imperialists) conquered spain....most African Americans are descended from moors....

Africans sold some Blacks to Whites as Slaves.

Egyptians are originally West African, having migrated to the nile to escape from the growing sahara. They INVENTED capitalism....

Your take on Basketball was so wrong, if you read my posts...I stress managing and using your money for the common good...not bling, bling..watch me dunk a ball......whoops.......I'm hurt an can't play anymore...and now I'm broke. Using your money wisely is more important then just having it.


This is too funny, why I didn't realize this before I don't know. I'm not arguing with ya'll anymore..you claim to be pro-Black....but you want to paint an idealized picture of your history. Africans have/will/can do all the same isht Europeans have...it's Human nature... Africans/Afrikans aren't some pure beings that live this wholistic life one with nature....c'mon grow up.


Lata,



M2

to cued, solarus, and anyone else who wants to reiterate this already crushed argument, it's getting old now that its been exposed as unsubstantiated:

>>Africans have/will/can do all the same isht Europeans have...it's Human nature

(we've had this discussion long ago)

>>acting like Africans were perfect and didn't do anything wrong and capitalism was an evil brought by the whites.

nice to attack our ancestors, but this reminds me of how overweight people point to even bigger,fatter, more disgusting people when someone breaks down all their arguments and have nothing to say. i understand, people (not just you) usually get this way when their way of life(culture) comes under scrutine. you know, i know, everybody else reading this knows this culture is gross(babylon). the diference is, you're trying to be the best at the game, afrikan warrior/scholars recognize that this way of life is detrimental to all and are living to destroy it. PEACE

this is written not to debate you on and on, but for the onlookers. like i said to urbancowgirl and elsewhere, you can lie all you want or give your perspective, just don't think that afrikan people will sit back and let you do it unchallenged. this is for those onlookers.

"REAL RECOGNIZE REAL, and even more than that, the fake, they REALLY REALLY recognize REAL!" -BlackThought

... or the time to destroy this garbage, right now.

Geez, when will the gross universalism stop?

It amazes me how someone can speak unintelligibly on OURSTORY to try to justify western culture.

Human nature?

Come on, grow up.

Try Harder.

DO better!!

PEace
Solarus

"Activism is the practice of using an internal, self-determining source of power to live one's life and/or enact some sort of change. Power is the ability to define reality, while self-determination is to decide or define one's self. Therefore activism, is not simply something done to right some wrong or to fight some cause but rather it is a way of life. Activism is the way of life where one can define self and change anything that may impede or control the reality that one chooses to live."-Solarus

never, as along a people feel like shit because of their culture. SEE guerill_love's post, she broke it down. plus there's the "fat people" syndrome, better to attack others than refine self. he knows his culture is gross, what better way to compensate by making everybody gross?

"REAL RECOGNIZE REAL, and even more than that, the fake, they REALLY REALLY recognize REAL!" -BlackThought

#1. Africa is made up of so many different ethnic groups and countries that trying to invision African culture in a monolithic manner...is well...just plain stupid.

Africa is the most diverse continent on the planet, in language, cultures, ethnic groups, religions, physical traits, etc. There is no monolithic African culture, way of life, religion, creed or any other combination of things that would comprise a way of life. I would be able to take your "Afrikan Culture" ideas somewhat seriously if you would at least assign a specific geographic region, nation, tribe, culture, ethnic group or something to it.

What part of Africa did these ideas originate from? Western Africa? Eastern Africa? Central? South? Where? Did the Islamic religion have an influence? Judaism? (E.g. Jews of East Africa?) What?

#2. I've heard this stuff before and it often doesn't Jive with the realities of African Culture past or present. It seems analogous to a European person studying the Christian influence on Europe and saying.."Wow, what a friendly, spiratual culture. They lived their lives by the ten commandmants, there was no greed or war..what a great place"

All I'm hearing is a bunch of intellectuals who are sick of the way that American culture has treat them and are out to destroy it. In an effort to get in touch with their own roots, they are following another intellectual who has fabricated his idea of a perfect African..err Afrikan culture and/or is taking an selective view of various African cultures (E.g. only seeing what they want to see) and created a vision of an "ideal Afrikan Culture"

However, there are no specific examples...no historical context...no evidence of it's existance today...not specific teachings to go from....rarely a religious basis. It's just a mish mash of various things, and it always ignores the problems these cultures had. Again, it's like a European assuming all Europeans lived by the Bible...

Slavery started when Europeans went to the same Brothas they used to Buy gold from and bought some people as well. When we weren't as succeptable to the same diseases the Native Americans were, they bought more and more...colonization of Africa began and the rest is history. Just by the fact that Africans sold their fellow Africans into slavery proves they weren't perfect..so let's stop pretending they had some sort of "Ideal Culture"

I'm not calling out the fatter man, I'm pointing out that the Fat man should stop pretending he's Skinny.

Blacks have shaped American culture from day one, now is time (in my mind) for us to start benefitting from it more.

Think out of the Box, don't just see things from your view.... have I gotten defensive about my life? Nope, I've just said this what I'm going to do...take it or leave it. This is WHY I feel the way I do.....I'm defending myself to anyone..just presenting my motivations so my view is out there. You don't like it? I really could care less..BUT I will call you on your fantasies.....I'd like to see a perfect culture too...but it's nonsensical to misinterpret African culture as a means to achieve it.

I can see your perspective and why you want to Push an African culture....but I don't see where you're basing this from...especially due to the lack of evidence..and the fact that human nature transcends culture and race. Nothing that's happening in America hasn't happened in other cultures in way or another. Plus, I like Capitalism...it makes me happy... :)

Peace,



M2

1)read Yurugu, an African Centered Critique of European thought, Culture, and Behavior. Because really, dude, you think like a European. too many people are e-mailing me asking why i'm even trying with you, but there's hope in all.

2)try, try, TRY to understand cultural connections, then you'll understand the use of the word afrikan in a non-monolithic sense as you inferred. reading this much information about afrika may be well...

3)learn your history independent of 'western literature', read what afrikans wrote about the historical instances you listed, READ YOUR OWN HISTORY! (this means learning AT LEAST two or three other languages as some of of are engaged in, but that may not help in your capitalistic endeavors)

4)be honest about your culture.

5)Don't use conjecture about what I or any other afrikan scholar thinks about "our" history. I know more than you could imagine. I "KNOW" you were educated in the west. So your perspective about Afrika will "HAVE" to be distorted. I need not challenge this as you will more likely expose yourself the more you talk.
talk. talk.

not once have you reflected on whether your culture is righteous or positive/progressive. i wonder why.

"REAL RECOGNIZE REAL, and even more than that, the fake, they REALLY REALLY recognize REAL!" -BlackThought

Culture in of itself isn't positive or negative, what's important is how people act within it.

I.e. Saddam Hussein may claim to be a Muslim and a product of Islamic/Arabian culture...but he for damn sure isn't acting like it. The US Vs. IRAQ conflict aside...he's done plenty of things in his own country that are without a doubt against the Quran.

That being said, any ideology/culture/religion/philosophy/government can be boiled down to a set of rules, concepts, etc. There are the 5 pillars of Islam, the Ten Commandments, the Constitution, etc.

So I ask you, what are the basic rules, concepts, pillars of your Afrikan culture? I'm a show me the good kinda guy, giving me a reading list and attacking my life isn't an answer. Giving me a list of concepts and rules shouldn't be too much to ask.

From my perspective all I hear is an idea, presented in somewhat Nebulos terms. I hear things like building communities...but that's nothing new..almost everyone says that. I've been hearing about this stuff for years now and no one really gives me concrete answers, ideas, constructs, concepts that depict what this thing is all about.

Everything boils down to something simple, complex digital circuts boil down to rather simple Boolean expressions, Islam while complex...can be 90% explained with the 5 pillars.

You've read alot, you've studied different peoples and cultures in Africa. I'm going to hazard a guess that you've created a composite image of those lessons into the Afrikan culture you speak of, by combining like elements of various cultures.

So it should be relatively simple for you to outline it for me;
I'm not trying to sound Daft but I keep hearing of this culture but NO ONE has really articulated what it's about....there have been attempts..but they are usually things that most cultures say in one form or another.

So, I ask you.....is a 5 minute outline too much for you? Or would you rather inform me of bankruptcy of my culture (which honestly is not something I think about on a day to day basis)

If we are going to have an intelligent debate, I feel we need to first identify WHAT it is that your culture represents and fundamental structure it is based on. Then we can say...ok with your way of life...this can't happen...with mine it would...etc, etc.


Peace


M2

>>So, I ask you.....is a 5 minute outline too much for you?

no, very simplistic when concerning wholistic ideals. e.g. the god concept CANNOT separated from the science of medicine in afrikan thought, to do so is mutating it. i would have to explain or give reference to everything for understanding to be born. this is not just something typed out in 5 minutes. abduhu had the idea of an outline in another post today. i'm pulling together some other posters to share some of the burden. we all have agreed, this is a large task. experience is the best teacher though, better read the sources and do the thinking for yourself instead of taking our word for it...willing to invest couple of years? we'll try to provide

sidenote: solarus will tell you i have about as many problems with afrocentrists as i do with europeans. often the information is unfounded. some of the best afrikan centered scholars have taken the discipline it to another level though...

"REAL RECOGNIZE REAL, and even more than that, the fake, they REALLY REALLY recognize REAL!" -BlackThought

I say HBCUs aren't as good as HWCUs....you get pissed

Then you say that HBCUs are copies of HWCUs and are designed to produce folks like me.

But that somehow, HBCUs are better due to culture.....but HBCUs are about race....and since not all Blacks have the same culture......

So...um......what's your point?

You seem to be attacking HBCUs and defending them at the same time.


IF you ask me, you really just don't like my Black Capitalist planning on having a 7 figure net worth by age 40 ass. AND, you're ticked because I had the audacity to "diss" your school.

Then you had to go and call me Expertise........who I've rarely agreed with.

I'm out....there is no point in talking to you if the real point of your post is to attack me for being myself. You want to debate logically..let me know.



Lata,


M2

It's not necessarilly an attack of you. You respresent the cultural extremes of many people in the Afrikan community.

1. Blinded by the notion that European is better. Whether education, business or culture.

2. Taking it a step further in your desire in assimulating completely into the culture.

3. The desire to be more European than Europeans.

This is the logic of most Black people in this culture. Destroying this mindstate is my mission, but sometimes you have to pick your battles. You are totally entrenched in that mindstate. That this lifestyle will prove that you are equal to and worthy of the European status quo. It is sickening. Yet, that is the reality for most Afrikans in this culture whether knowing or unknowing to, not just sleep, but to become the enemy. What we are trying to tell you is that there is a better way, IMO, of thinking, a logic that is truer to your natural self and a culture that we were stripped of and are religiously trying to recapture. Europeans have stripped us, including you, of our natural idenities and have replaced them with a immoral, corupt, self-hating, person who idea of success is that ammount of wealth or power they can manipulate and control of others. I realize it may be difficult to see this reality for again, I state we have all been mislead, and I still fall prey to those trappings( big car, nice clothes, women, power). All that can be obtained in this system, but is that the system that you wish to be apart of. Look outside of the world you are living in a determine your own self..

peace...

I know this has probably been explained before, but I'll ask it anyway, "What do you do after you've broken through the brainwashing?"

It's pretty hard to throw away the whole American/European mindset and still be able to function in the US.

Shaun G.

(talking for the brainwashed Blacks in the US)

Simple, live it..... walk it, talk it, live it..
no one says that you can't function in this world. just wake up to the world around you, with that knowledge.

peace...

for example: its one thing if i profess veagnism or better diet, a whole new world to live it

another to advocate better energy resources, another to integrate solar power into my aprtment

one thing to say support black business, another to MAKE myself join te afrikan co-op here in atlanta, and only buy black

one's life CAN change after recognizing the brainwashing, you just have to DO. urbgriot makes this clear in all posts, DO, DO, DO. too many talk, only the disciplined DO!

PEACE

"REAL RECOGNIZE REAL, and even more than that, the fake, they REALLY REALLY recognize REAL!" -BlackThought

co-op for black business. give me that info....

peace...

from citi center Kroger. called mutana. if you're into natural products, you'll love the prices and the concept

"REAL RECOGNIZE REAL, and even more than that, the fake, they REALLY REALLY recognize REAL!" -BlackThought

peace...

I'm basically addressing this to all the folks I'm arguing with, so don't be offended if one of my points has nothing to do with you.

<b>Business:</b>

Business is Business, it's not White, Black or European. The goal is always to make a profit, the only difference between two businesses is their profits, size and ethnics. But when you boil it down to its core, it's just Business.

If I start a Business in Black Communities that's cool, that's being Afrikan...if I start a Business in all communities..I'm being European. What kind of logic is that?

I fail to see how my goals are any different from the goals of people like you, who seek to start Black Small Businesses. You're using the same methods, you have the same goal....WTF!

<b>Wealth Building & Capitalism:</b>

Like it or not, Western African Empires prized gold..and sold it to the Europeans....they also sold some of their own people. 600 years ago, I may have been a gold merchant...now I'm a consultant who sells his services. IN both cases, the goal was to succeed. So how am I being European by doing things my ancestors did centuries ago?

Agriculture, Commerce, Empire Building...all of that isht started in Africa. Their may be negative aspects to all three items, but they did start in Africa.

In a different discussion topic, you and your cronies are discussing building an Afrikan school. To do so, you feel may you have to start a business and/or solicit investors, etc. Basically, you are going to have to use CAPITALISM to get this going. In that sense, Capitalism (as I've been saying all along) isn't evil or even wrong. It's PEOPLE who are evil in terms of what they do with it. You don't have to dominate others to build wealth...you'll need to build wealth in order to start your school...IF you believe Capitalism is hand in hand with domination..how are you any better then a typical capitalist when you raise money to start your school?

I contend that there is nothing wrong with making money, it is simply the way that you go about doing it that's important. Nor is doing so strictly a Western or European trait.

There are too many contradictions:

the Afrikan(s) extole the virtues of Black Businesses
Africa has a long history of capitalistic endeavors before the Europeans ever showed up
The Moors conquered Spain and Scicily
Egypt was the first Major Empire
The Egyptians valued wealth, perhaps too much so. As African Americans they are ancestral cousins, in a similar fashion to Germans and The English.
For the Western African Empires to be built, someone had to be subjugated, opressed and dominated
You say it's important to Buy Black, Work for Black and start Black Businesses......but yet...you are against investing and wealth building (from a previous discussion topic) isn't it the same bloody thing?

The assigment of the evils of capitalism and wealth on to the European Culture and the positive aspects on the African...is childish and an vain attempt at saying "They may be opressing us, but we're better then the are" Once again, the Noble Savage Myth raises it's ugly head.

Many of the aspects of Capitalism and Wealth building are prevalent in all cultures.

You speak of destorying cultures and making new ones....how can you even begin that process when you view the "ideal culture" through rose colored glasses? How could you see its faults?

It's the year 2001, cultures are melding together and it's becoming increasingly obvious that working with other cultures/peoples is a neccessary part of survival. Wouldn't it be better to carve out a niche in the culture you live in?

Anyway, this is my LAST post on this topic. No one is giving me concrete details about this "Afrikan Culture", I've already discussed the paradoxes and contractions. Until I see some EVIDENCE, that disproves historical facts about Africa...until someone articulates the reason(s), why a Black person starting a small business in your examples, is so much more englightened then A Black Investor or Businessman like in my life/examples...I'm not responding to any of this... No offense, but ya'll sound like rambling lunatics who've created a fantasy to cope with life.

You discuss Blacks getting ownership and starting businesses...and then denigrate a Brotha like myself who is trying to get to a point of financial independence and who preaches the importance of investing and sound financial management.

I can't debate with someone who never really discusses the merits of his/her point of view...except to say that one way is worse then his. This whole discussion topic is polluted with you attacking my so called "European" lifestyle with arguments that boild down to nothing more then "Your way is bad..my way is good"



Regards,



M2

http://www.okayplayer.com/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=1924&forum=DCForumID1&omm=0

peace.....

afrikan lifesyle can only be understood by living it, not analyzing it. practiced more than preached. the answers you look for are so wholistic we could write volumes about it, experience though is the best teacher. independence is a western concept. interdependence afrikan. when saying starting/running a business that is independent what do you mean? when we speak of it, it probably means something different being that WE KNOW we're using the terms and concepts of someone else's language and cultural context, those listening just assume its in the same sense as theirs. independence to one might be owning a house, having a good job/or own business, and not having to ask the majority culture for anything. the people in tulsa in that sense were independent(until they were attacked and killed by the majority). another person's idea of independence might be total separation from the majority "culture" alltogether. idealistic, but having the mentality of freedom vs, virtual freedom is paramount. what do you do after getting that business/money? turn around and destroy the very thing that got you there (which coincidentally is the very thing that oppresses people now)? not likely, most set up residence and ride the wave. you said the system isn't the problem, its the people, i agree. the people though are bound to the system, and asking someone to separate after gaining the kind of "control the game" status you talked about earlier, isn't easy. could you do it?

remember yall: this is the same individual who said people were jealouse of his seven figure net worth! even mentioning that says a lot. wealthy people don't flaunt their status, they KNOW their worth. it does speak to your fram of mind though.

PEACE

"You're comparing apples and oranges, my friend. Oversimplification is not the way to "win" an argument. I'm glad you're convinced that what you're doing is right. Are they giving out prizes to the people who bring in the most converts this week?" janey (my new heroine) to abduhu. not a diss, just a clear glimpse of the truth.

"REAL RECOGNIZE REAL, and even more than that, the fake, they REALLY REALLY recognize REAL!" -BlackThought

I'm only posting this to point out an incorrect fact(s)

I don't have a 7 figure Net worth. I PLAN on having one by Age 40-45..hopefully sooner(35). However, I just turned 25 in January. I'm sorry if I gave that impression, I'm not a braggart. I may say (rarely) that I'm doing well, but I'm not the type who is going to throw around numbers and brag about his wealth/salary/car/house/possessions.

I apoligize if I gave you that impression.

If I recall the post where that thought came from, I was stating that were having a class clash. I'm the type of person who <b>wants</b> to have a 7 figure net worth, you're the type of person who looks on someone like me who has those types of capitalist designs with distaste...hence the reason for your verbal attack. Remembering the post in question, I pointed out that our views were really not that different and the only reason you were arguing with me was due to my capitalist desires. E.g. I have the same views, but I'm not a capitalist..then we wouldn't be arguing..(about that particular point anyway)

In the end, our thoughts on life will never fit because independence is the ultimate goal for me. I don't want to be dependent on anyone, I'm not a communal person...hell I don't even talk to my neighboors.

Just clearing things up.........



M2

My god, this is my first time even looking at this thread, and all this time M2 been going toe to toe with these jarheads.

Good job. You're getting better.

Hell, I'm surprised you managed to get these kats to talk. Whenever I make a post they start shouting and yelling "Bootlicker!!!!" and then run off somewhere instead of coming at me with something worth countering.

Oh well, have fun M2. If I see a spot, I'll jump in. Looks like I got a lot of reading to do.

I find it funny that you complain about being called a "bootlicker" (which I find stupid too) but you call the people who disagree with M2 (like me) "jarheads".

If you're going to jump in you better come with something better than M2 did because I don't think he convinced anybody of anything logically, factually, or emotionally IMO.

Shaun G.

>I find it funny that you
>complain about being called a
>"bootlicker" (which I find stupid
>too) but you call the
>people who disagree with M2
>(like me) "jarheads".

Not you in particular. The two I was referring to know of whom I'm talking about.

>If you're going to jump in
>you better come with something
>better than M2 did because
>I don't think he convinced
>anybody of anything logically, factually,
>or emotionally IMO.

In the rules of debate, in order for you to counter logic your opponent must dispense logic first. Now I have yet to read all these posts on this thread (and considering my impatience, never will) but Utamorho (or however you spell it) nor Solaris came up with anything remotely logical to challenge M2's ideals, instead merely claiming that since his education and learning was based on western civilization that he'd never understand. The problem is that until they can come up with direct and logical opposition to his points of view then why should M2 or anyone for that matter change his or her mind about their views? But hey, they are "scholars of Afrikan thought", so we should take their judgements for face value and not question them, right? Sure.

As a lady friend told me the other day, I'm bout as stubborn as an old mule. And old mules like me need more than simple proporganda and hollow rhetoric followed by petty insults to change our minds about certain views. I want some logic.

The fact is, you are not trying to hear their side, rather than, more concentrated on sticking to your point...

Why is it that I don't want to see his side? Why can't I just not agree with anything he said because none of his reasoning works if looked at closely?

I love the "I can't be wrong, because you just don't want to see my side" argument.

Nothing here has shown me that HBCU's don't prepare you for
real life any less than a 'White' school, which was the main reason I made my initial reply.

Shaun G.

>7.6% of all Middle and
>higher managers & execs in
>America are Black...not bad considering
>from where we came from...and
>that number has increased 50%
>in the last 10 years.
>We're actually not to far
>away from having representation in
>those ranks thats equal to
>our % of the population.
>The ceiling is no longer
>concrete....it's glass...and you can break
>glass...

well, zippadidooda....

I don't know...call me cooky, but that doesn't seem like a really big accomplishment to me. Plus, managers & execs does not equal ownership, which is where the real power lies.


>Another thought: Jews arent't really popular
>amongst most corporate types either...but
>it doesn't hold them back
>much.

well, Jewish folks tend to look white. Can't quite cover up that blackness w/ a changed name...

L.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Homer: Do you wanna change your name to Homer, Jr? All the kids can call you HoJo!
Bart: uhh...I'll get back to you...

"how u gonna tell me to mind my biz/when you lookin like somethin I need to know about?"~~de la soul

"Ignorance: The Verbal Airborne Disease" (c) my friend Ty

"writer's block is a...I mean, it's like...uh...damn." ~~Me

7.6% is significant because the number is growing and that they're more Blacks gaining power in corporate america.


Managers have "some" power, but not a ton...I'll give you that....

Execs control the company though.....a supply chain exec can make a decision to place a factory near a Black neighboorhood and employ Blacks...

Ownership? Well in the Fortune 500 world, you just buy the stock...if you can accumulate enough...or if groups can...they can influence. Besides in a Fortune 500 world, it's hard to say who owns a company sometimes....so many fingers in the power pot...if you can get your finger in...more power to you. Stock Holders have power, board members have power, execs have power...

Small Private owned, multi-million dollar firms is another story...Blacks need start some of those.....and we are...we just need more.


As for Jews...they may have white skin, but they can't always hide being Jewish..and they are hated on a lot too...the difference is that most people in this country can't move against them.


M2

>>Small Private owned, multi-million dollar firms is another story...Blacks need start some of those.....and we are...we just need more.

blacks need to produce our own industries for self suficiency, money may be necessary to start but independence from their game is desired.

you seem to be trying awfully hard to stay within the context of the AMERICAN DREAM. revolution is an overthrow not subtle change in practices. think like a revolutionary! (well that is if you want true change)

>you seem to be trying awfully
>hard to stay within the
>context of the AMERICAN DREAM.
>revolution is an overthrow not
>subtle change in practices. think
>like a revolutionary! (well that
>is if you want true
>change)

the more I see of the "american dream", the more disillusioned I am by it. and while I think (to a degree) that you can work inside the system--or at the very least understand it--once you're in it, you have to be willing to turn it upside down.

so I'd rather see 100% of us owning/producing/running something than 7.whatever% of us struggling for crumbs.

thanks for saying it better than I could.

L.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Homer: Do you wanna change your name to Homer, Jr? All the kids can call you HoJo!
Bart: uhh...I'll get back to you...

"how u gonna tell me to mind my biz/when you lookin like somethin I need to know about?"~~de la soul

"Ignorance: The Verbal Airborne Disease" (c) my friend Ty

"writer's block is a...I mean, it's like...uh...damn." ~~Me

>>>Small Private owned, multi-million dollar firms is another story...Blacks need start some of those.....and we are...we just need more.
>
>blacks need to produce our own
>industries for self suficiency, money
>may be necessary to start
>but independence from their game
>is desired.
>
>you seem to be trying awfully
>hard to stay within the
>context of the AMERICAN DREAM.
>revolution is an overthrow not
>subtle change in practices. think
>like a revolutionary! (well that
>is if you want true
>change)

i was thinking that this point needed to be made at some point on this thread... glad i found that you said it before i repeated it.

of course, the word "revolution" implies "change" and that "implies" transition... and transition sparks a whole bunch of ideas/questions in my head....

- #26 G/F e baker aka 'the fabulous one' aka 'the slow jam connoisseur'
________________________________________

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e-mail (twentysixfab@hotmail.com)
aim, msn, yim, bp sn (twentysixfab)

"." - X

** this space for rent: call 404/AYB-ABTU **

i meant to put quotes around "transition" not "implies"... sheesh

>Looking at the list of the
>top 50 Blacks in corporate
>America, only 6 went to
>an HBCU, 15 have at
>least 1 degree from an
>Ivy League school. With their
>average age being 54 (range
>of 42 - 66) a
>lot of these Brothas and
>Sistas came of age when
>HBCUs were a lot more
>relavant then they were now.
>Looking at the stats, it
>occurs to me that HBCU
>aren't producing leaders like the
>white schools are. That's all
>I really want to say
>about that.

If your concept of "leader" is limited to corporate CEO, you should strongly consider widening your understanding of that word.

If meory serves, Howard Law grads include Doug Wilder (former governor of VA, 1st black governor there), Thurgood Marshall (1st black Supreme Court justice), Sharon Pratt Kelly (1st black female mayor of DC...or ever?), some cat that became Secretary of the Army, and a bunch of folks I can't remember right now.

Howard undergrad has seen cats like Donny Hathaway (three years), Roberta Flack, Stokely Carmichael (aka Kwame Ture), Puffy (ha! one and a half years), Debbie Allen (first black female producer of a network TV series?) and a lot of people I can't even remember.

Let's see, I think Kwame N'Krumah (sp?) went to Lincoln, an HBCU.

Spike Lee and Martin Luther King went to Morehouse.

Yet you say HBCU's don't produce leaders? Get outta here with that shit...

Thoughtfully yours,

Spirit

COMICS ARTIST NEEDED!!!!!!!! INBOX ME!!!!!

http://www.mp3.com/miscellaneousflux -
Just listen, you will believe...

"I don't denounce writtens, but freestyling at its essence is improvising. It's spontaneous, uncut, mind, thought, travel, energy - all at the same time...the thing is to be at a peak where your freestyle sounds like your writtens and vice versa" - Aceyalone on freestyling (Rappages, Sept. 95)

DJ Premier went to Prairie View. Now THERE'S a leader! haha. A leader in hip-hop, anyway...

Thoughtfully yours,

Spirit

COMICS ARTIST NEEDED!!!!!!!! INBOX ME!!!!!

http://www.mp3.com/miscellaneousflux -
Just listen, you will believe...

"I don't denounce writtens, but freestyling at its essence is improvising. It's spontaneous, uncut, mind, thought, travel, energy - all at the same time...the thing is to be at a peak where your freestyle sounds like your writtens and vice versa" - Aceyalone on freestyling (Rappages, Sept. 95)

YES, they do
>have more connections then the
>avg, black kid and they
>can use those to get
>a job. BUT, these kids
>are my friends..and I know
>too many of them that
>are struggling.
>
>While I will admit that a
>lot of them got help
>with some startup money, car
>co-signage and what not that
>a lot of Blacks don't
>get.


exactly..."more connection than your average black student" just because in your cicle you see it (struggling white students)...doesn't mean on the average that statement is true...

can you remove your black face from society?
can they remove their privaledge?

more connections doesn't GUARANTEE that you'll never be broke or that you'll never struggle. You said white graduates will never be broke...FALSE! I know you're not basing this from experience, because the isht just ain't true.

The Myth of white privelage is grossly overstated.....


I'm not just talking about my friends, while some are struggling..the most are just fine...I'm also talking about fellow Alumni I see at functions.........I'm also speaking of kids I know of from college, high school, etc. Even with more connections, making it is just not that easy...I'm trying to disabuse that myth because the isht ain't true....

The concept of the privelaged white kid who has a perfect life, everything handed ot him....and can never fail because the other whites will help is WRONG! Get over it.


M2

you are completely missing my point..

and the so called 'myth' is still there

More whites (i never said ALL..) have more support systems (be it old classmates/friends of family/family) that would help them out in dire needs than blacks. period. again, your friends/city/school...is not the WHOLE country is it?

Much love,
Kyle

****************************************
sellin' sigs since 1999
****************************************

I think that while whites have better support systems, it doesn't Guarantee success or that they'll never be broke.


That's the myth, I'm railing against...that white success is Guaranteed.

"A white graduate will never be broke"

An absolute statement that isn't true...can we agree on that?!

Better Support...isn't a Guarantee

take you away from the core of the discussion (culture) by letting him emphasis race. this is one tactic used to divert attention from the essence of the problem. look at his posts. they have to do with race and economics, peripherals to the cultural discussion you were talking about earlier. i know that looking at western culture can be overwhelming but seeing its core shows the point of his statements, to drift towards a race/money/class discussion.


"REAL RECOGNIZE REAL, and even more than that, the fake, they REALLY REALLY recognize REAL!" -BlackThought

good point ;-)

Much love,
Kyle

****************************************
sellin' sigs since 1999
****************************************

>The Myth of white privelage is
>grossly overstated.....

that's...well...whoa.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Homer: Do you wanna change your name to Homer, Jr? All the kids can call you HoJo!
Bart: uhh...I'll get back to you...

"how u gonna tell me to mind my biz/when you lookin like somethin I need to know about?"~~de la soul

"Ignorance: The Verbal Airborne Disease" (c) my friend Ty

"writer's block is a...I mean, it's like...uh...damn." ~~Me

you were just referring to that particular post & not life at large.

carry on...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Homer: Do you wanna change your name to Homer, Jr? All the kids can call you HoJo!
Bart: uhh...I'll get back to you...

"how u gonna tell me to mind my biz/when you lookin like somethin I need to know about?"~~de la soul

"Ignorance: The Verbal Airborne Disease" (c) my friend Ty

"writer's block is a...I mean, it's like...uh...damn." ~~Me

I've grown up around Affluent White kids my whole life, while they typically have more of a support system then most Black kids I know. It's rare to see someone so connected that they'll never be unemployed, never be broke, etc. To me that's the Myth of "white privelage" the idea that one would never struggle if they were white.

I lived in 4 different towns growing up, 7-12 grades I went to 3 different schools in 3 towns and 2 states. I also went to a college that was chock full of affluent white kids from all over the country.....I think I can speak with some certainty that while having affluent parents might give you a better start. It's no guarantee of success, you may be broke one day...you may be out of work. You'll still have to work for what you get......

It is a very very very small minority of people who have everything handed to them are never really going to fall too hard.

I say it's Myth not neccessarily in existance, but definitely in Magnitude. When I was in college, a lot of Blacks would go on and one about White Privelage...(even though they had no white friends) just because they couldn't buy a new car fresh out of school...and the white dude's parents bought him one or co-signed for one. Getting a car and being set for life with connections that can always get you a job, are two ENTIRELY different things.


"The White Graduate Is Never Broke"

That's the belief a lot of Blacks have....and it's just not true.

It may "appear" that way, but when you've grown up around these people your whole life..you see it's not that simple/easy.

I don't mean to sound daft, but you're trying to argue your perception with my reality. You couldn't see what I'm seeing and believe the Myth.


Lata,


M2

...that's why I said that if you were talking about that specific post, I got you.

I never had that belief. Personally, I saw more of the opposite when I was at school in Boston, but I try to stay away from sweeping generalizations. So I never really agreed to that idea of "white grads aren't broke."

At the same time, to say that you DON'T see that white people have a certain amount of privilege in this society *just* because they are white, that's dangerous.

I've seen white people go to job interviews in jeans and tshirts and get the job.

I've seen my opinion discounted or ignored in the face of a white peer saying the same damn thing.

I was accused of not writing a good paper by a white professor. She wasn't convinced that I could master the language that well. Did any white students get called up on their use of standard English? No.

That is white privilege, American style. Whether or not they're broke after graduation is another story.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Never miss a good chance to shut up." ~~anonymous

"It may be that your sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a bad example." ~~anonymous

"how u gonna tell me to mind my own biz/when you lookin like somethin I need to know about?"~~de la soul

"Ignorance: The Verbal Airborne Disease" (c) my friend Ty

"writer's block is a...I mean, it's like...uh...damn." ~~Me

one of the things i was led to do and taught to do is "start my own" thing

broad a$$ generalizations are running rampant --- yet again

And how does that compare to the other folks who went to your school?

Was starting your own business a core part of the curriculum at your college?

Inform me. I loved to be proven wrong. It hasn't happened yet (LOL!!)

Seriously, most degree programs set you up to work in some part of a huge system, either governments or corporations. The real money made in those businesses come from elsewhere. In Govt, it's taxes. In business, someone sells something to someone, and you just kinda assist in making that something. And generally you can be replaced by someone smarter, younger, and whiter.

peace
k. orr

as to the comparison question i couldn't tell you 100%. i was one of about 500 who graduated my undergrad year and about 200 my graduate year...the point is:

the school is there to provide an education...what you do with that (be it go "work for the man" or go for delf) is 100% on you.

going back to the original point, (whether the schools are needed) there are many who are provided an opportunity to be educated in a "traditional" college/university setting they couldn't get otherwise

true, not all courses and facilities are top choice...but that is just as true at "white schools" as hbcus and in either case the experience is what the individual makes of it

In fact, 301 of the 400 richest Americans never graduated from college.

Wierd.

yes

at their very core HBCUs are intended to provide educational opportunities to folk who (through whatever means) seek higher education.

whether it be because of prejudice, discrimination, lack of opportunity, lack of money, need for compensation of poor pre-college education, or simply a desire for "the experience" of learning in an environment that such colleges provide

as long as these (and other) needs still exist -- HBCUs are needed. period.

all that other whipped creme y'all wanna add to the sundae (most of which reeks of personal bias regarding whether they "do their job" to your satisfaction) is fairly moot

a Black university?

**********************

"...{The Pyramid} seems to have been erected only in compliance with that hunger of imagination which preys incessantly upon life....Those who have already all that they can enjoy, must enlarge their desires. He that has built for use, till use is supplied, must begin to build for vanity....I consider this mighty structure as a monument to the insufficiency of human enjoyments"---Anon

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

"I admit I don't really know what it means to be one thing or another---black, Jewish, French. I doubt if anyone else does either. But someone is out there making the rules that stop us from being individuals and instead force us into groups, rules that steal away liberty and choice and shrink the realm of possiblity" eddy l. harris

HIstorically Black College or University

do you really need em? I don't really know...I'll think on it, and get back to this...interesting question though...I've never had to really ponder it, cause those things are non existent out here....

**********************

"...{The Pyramid} seems to have been erected only in compliance with that hunger of imagination which preys incessantly upon life....Those who have already all that they can enjoy, must enlarge their desires. He that has built for use, till use is supplied, must begin to build for vanity....I consider this mighty structure as a monument to the insufficiency of human enjoyments"---Anon

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

"I admit I don't really know what it means to be one thing or another---black, Jewish, French. I doubt if anyone else does either. But someone is out there making the rules that stop us from being individuals and instead force us into groups, rules that steal away liberty and choice and shrink the realm of possiblity" eddy l. harris

maybe i should move to canada...
y'all seem to have ure shit together a lil' better than we do



Much love,
Kyle

****************************************
sellin' sigs since 1999
****************************************

i said a lil' better...

y'all kill me over here!

Much love,
Kyle

****************************************
sellin' sigs since 1999
****************************************

From my travels across southern Ontario, visting friends in school out of town, I've come to the conclusion that a good portion of the best students in the best programs at the best schools, aren't white. Most of my friends are in economics/biz/accounting programs or in medicine/science and the makeup of their classes almost identically reflects the makeup of Toronto's population. The South Asian, Middle East & East Asian pop'n of Waterloo U far exceeds Toronto's on a % basis in a study done by their cultural studies dept. And that school is considered one of the top 3 in the country for Accounting, math, science, computers, etc.

The only exception to this seems to be Queens, located in Kingston. "Minorities" still account for around 5% of the population. But that school is on a serious downswing. Why? Over half of T.O.'s population consist of immigrants. Which means that you have tons of bright young kids, who just happen not to be white. And where do you think they're gonna go to school? Queens or my school, York? Which, btw, I think is on a big upswing because that fact.

Just thought I'd throw that in there . . .

Marinera: It's a sauce, not a chick's name, dig?

Giving you true calcio since 1986

AIM: Marinera81
MAIL: jonah_b27@hotmail.com

Check out http://www.greatergood.com Help end world hunger, save the rainforest, help stop AIDS in Africa, help children survive in 3rd world countries, stop breast cancer, and give treatment to landmine victims in less than a minute a day! FOR FREE! NO FORMS TO FILL OUT AND NO STRINGS! REALLY!!!

I'm a grad student in mechanical engineering at Howard University
My undergrad was done at Syracuse University. My grades after
graduating from Syracuse weren't that great and Howard University
gave me the opportunity to continue study that many other schools
didn't. Plus the curriculum at Howard University is 3X harder than it was at Syracuse. I think it's because society expects students at HBCU's to be less prepared, when actually we know alot more in the end. Plus companies flock to Howard because they know that their students are well prepared. So if you ask me are HBCU's still needed? I say yeah!

"The only place you find success before work is in the dictionary" -May V. Smith
"The only way to be who you want to be is by being what you haven't yet been." -Sally Edwards

why companies flock to HBCU's?


Much love,
Kyle

****************************************
sellin' sigs since 1999
****************************************

You do not need to have lived/educated yourself with white people to get a job with white people.

White employers hire who they need..period. That is why white owned hospitals recruit doctors & nurses who can't even speak the language...the demand is more than they can produce of from their group.

Regardless of what school you graduate from, white employers hire theirs first and ours last and often thats' forced.

The idea that you have to know how to interact with caucasians to get a job with caucasians is a fallacy. The only thing that interacting with caucasians teaches you is how much they don't interact with us & are happy NOT to. The only time this interaction may matter is when a white employer's making a choice btwn 2 of black people - in which case they will chose the black that makes them the least nervous.

Black people do not have to learn to deal with white people, we are the minority in this country..we deal with white people from birth until death on a regular basis. That is a given. What's really being said is that black people have to learn what white people like & want and alter our behavior so that they will accept us when they have no alternative but to give us a job. Let's be real.

Black colleges are known for providing the foundation that allows black students to thrive educationally within their own communities. is that a problem, hell no. Its exactly what our white counterparts do everyday..its what every group does everyday from Jesuit to Jewish to military schools. The problem is that Blacks do not have enough of the business to employee our graduates once they've received their education. And that is by design. Integration diluted black entreprenaurship & the black economy we could've built. So were are forced to essentially beg for whatever scraps the white man will give us. Depending on HIS situation, he will give the job up.

Trust me, on a regular basis, white applicants with less education & less qualifications are hired over Black people for more money.....on every employ level. If you think your Harvard degree gets you as much as your white coworker's Harvard - shit even Dartmouth degree - you're trippin'.

Whatever college a person choses, this "learn to deal with whitey" excuse for attending a PREDOMINATELY WHITE college is a bunch of bull. Whites only deals with you when HE wants too anyway. No amount of Carlton antics will change that & that's what black people need to be focusing on. But why, when the best of us are happy with going to THEIR schools, getting a job in THEIR company, buying THEIR products and imitating THEIR ways.
We are the only people acting like the word "OUR" is bad..their shit ain't integrated yet.

>At times golks have said that
>they have outserved their purpose.

The only people that can accurately make that claim are members within the community. NO they have not outserved their purpose, because institutionalized oppression still exists within most white institutions. White institutions are not accepting African Americans in proportions that will help our community advance, therefore we must maintain our own institutes of higher learning!

>Othes claim that the curriculum
>is outdated at some, if
>not the majority of them.
>There are other arguments that
>are against these institutions of
>higher learning, they will be
>addresses later.

First of all college and university curriculum is not able to be lumped into one big category. You can evaluate elementary curriculum like that, but each college has a different curriculum for each program! Now, I attended Hampton University, and I now attend Johns Hopkins University! My programs at Hampton were much more updated and with the zeitgeist of the times! At Hopkins in a class for human development and cultural diversity, we actually were examining Freud, Jung, and other outdated members of the European diaspora! we were supposed to apply this to African American children! Talk about outdated! White Universities that teach old history, and literally no diversity are outdated!
>
>For now though, with the UMich
>decision set to possibly create
>a domino effect through mainstream
>predominantly white colleges and universities,
>my question to y'all is
>do you believe in maintaining
>these institutions? Are they indeed
>outdated? Not individually, but as
>a whole body?
>
>Yes, we still need HBCU'S~! The simple fact that over 95% of successful African Americans graduated from HBCU'S is the proof in the pudding! Success=rank, position, salary, satisfaction, for those that want operational definitions. If black colleges aren't needed then why are they producing such awesome results!
Those are the facts!
ANother thing! HBCU's are not 100% black! Hampton is 89% Black, which is more diverse than Stanford, Yale, Harvard, Miami University in Ohio! So these are HWCU's and no one says anything about that! These HWCU's are less than 2% black-most!
So when those stat's change, then the need will change!
>little......
>*************************************
>http://members.blackplanet.com/GrumpyBear/
>*************************************
>
>"Life's a bitch....BUT I LOVE THAT
>HOE!!!" (c) AVE

>The only people that can accurately
>make that claim are members
>within the community. NO
>they have not outserved their
>purpose, because institutionalized oppression still
>exists within most white institutions.
> White institutions are not
>accepting African Americans in proportions
>that will help our community
>advance, therefore we must maintain
>our own institutes of higher
>learning!

I agree. However, HWCUs either accept on "merit" or in the case of certain state and public universities' Affirmative Action Policies they accept the percentage equal to the population percentage of that particular state. Unfortunately, some states do both, these tend to te flagship institutions of the states' public education system(My school, The University of Missouri-Columbia, is such an example). So these criterion pose the question to you: What exactly are the reasonable proportions that will help the African-American community?


>First of all college and university
>curriculum is not able to
>be lumped into one big
>category. You can evaluate
>elementary curriculum like that, but
>each college has a different
>curriculum for each program!

Okay, another question. Is there really a need for a physical education requirement to graduate when you are a civil engineering major? Do you find it neccessary that physical science majors are required to have a foundation in humanities and liberal arts?


>Now, I attended Hampton University,
>and I now attend Johns
>Hopkins University! My programs
>at Hampton were much more
>updated and with the zeitgeist
>of the times! At
>Hopkins in a class for
>human development and cultural diversity,
>we actually were examining Freud,
>Jung, and other outdated members
>of the European diaspora!
>we were supposed to apply
>this to African American children!
> Talk about outdated! White
>Universities that teach old history,
>and literally no diversity are
>outdated!

Thass for a particular class? or is that for the ENTIRE curriculum for which you are getting a degree? See, a class like that could be an elective or just readjusted to fi the times. I agree with you in a way that you can't apply such scholars to a modern problem when such research is available to supplement the learnin objective.



>>Yes, we still need HBCU'S~! The simple fact that over 95% of successful African Americans graduated from HBCU'S is the proof in the pudding! Success=rank, position, salary, satisfaction, for those that want operational definitions. If black colleges aren't needed then why are they producing such awesome results!

Can I get some sources on this, because this number sounds TOO contrived.


>Those are the facts!
>ANother thing! HBCU's are not
>100% black! Hampton is
>89% Black, which is more
>diverse than Stanford, Yale, Harvard,
>Miami University in Ohio!
>So these are HWCU's and
>no one says anything about
>that! These HWCU's
>are less than 2% black-most!
>
>So when those stat's change, then
>the need will change!

Okay, just cuz we are in the majority does not mean that the school is diverse. It's the flip side of the coin from HWCUs. Also, you just named some of the most selective PRIVATE schools in the country!!! Private schools for the most part are exempt from having to conform to federal standards. Keep in mind, it was the private schools that were more accepting of African-American students during Jim Crow than most public institutions, although those students were still held accountable for academic achievement.





little......
*************************************
http://members.blackplanet.com/GrumpyBear/
*************************************

"Life's a bitch....BUT I LOVE THAT HOE!!!" (c) AVE

>
>> >
>I agree. However, HWCUs either accept
>on "merit" or in the
>case of certain state and
>public universities' Affirmative Action Policies
>they accept the percentage equal
>to the population percentage of
>that particular state. Unfortunately, some
>states do both, these tend
>to te flagship institutions of
>the states' public education system(My
>school, The University of Missouri-Columbia,
>is such an example). So
>these criterion pose the question
>to you: What exactly are
>the reasonable proportions that will
>help the African-American community?
>
>Not all HBCU's are like your school first of all, second of all the proportions are higher than in white universities, therefore we obviously still need them.
>> >
>Okay, another question. Is there really
>a need for a physical
>education requirement to graduate when
>you are a civil engineering
>major? Do you find it
>neccessary that physical science majors
>are required to have a
>foundation in humanities and liberal
>arts?
>
>White Universities have these same requirements, especially concerning freshman, or sophmore year! All my friends at White Universities have these same complaints, so that has nothing to do with HBCU's! You can't put that on black colleges! You can't base your opinion on just your own black college.
>>
>Thass for a particular class? or
>is that for the ENTIRE
>curriculum for which you are
>getting a degree? See, a
>class like that could be
>an elective or just readjusted
>to fi the times. I
>agree with you in a
>way that you can't apply
>such scholars to a modern
>problem when such research is
>available to supplement the learnin
>objective.
>
>This class is not an elective! IT is required! EVen if it were an elective the point remains the same, but every member of my program must take that course, and I have found this problem in every course that I have taken at Hopkins! I am known for bringing up the issue. When discussing the begingings of education, we started in Europe and never mentioned one person from a minority background! I school these Havard and Yale kids from my knowledge gained at Hampton!
>
!
>
>Can I get some sources on
>this, because this number sounds
>TOO contrived.
>U.S. News and World report!
>
>> >>
>>So when those stat's change, then
>>the need will change!
>
>Okay, just cuz we are in
>the majority does not mean
>that the school is diverse.
>It's the flip side of
>the coin from HWCUs. Also,
>you just named some of
>the most selective PRIVATE schools
>in the country!!! Private schools
>for the most part are
>exempt from having to conform
>to federal standards. Keep in
>mind, it was the private
>schools that were more accepting
>of African-American students during Jim
>Crow than most public institutions,
>although those students were still
>held accountable for academic achievement.
>

NO you didn't get it! Hampton is 89% black and 11%other/white/international/asian etc. So if we have 11% white and other and were private, and other white schools only have 2% black! We are more diverse than them! I am clearly not stating that were more diverse because we have majority blacks, you didn't read correctly!

Also, there are good black colleges and bad black colleges, just like there are good and bad white colleges! I've never heard of your college, but it might be just the bad ones! You don't look at all white colleges in one lump sum, so why does it make sense to anaylze the black colleges as a whole! Not every black college is a Hampton, or a Howard, Spelman, or Morehouse! Hampton is the bomb, and we were rated in the top 25 of all schools in the south U.S. news and world report! SO you got your answer right there! You have to look at them individually, that's just how it goes for college evaluations on a national level!
>
>
>
>
>
>little......
>*************************************
>http://members.blackplanet.com/GrumpyBear/
>*************************************
>
>"Life's a bitch....BUT I LOVE THAT
>HOE!!!" (c) AVE

>>
>>> >
>>I agree. However, HWCUs either accept
>>on "merit" or in the
>>case of certain state and
>>public universities' Affirmative Action Policies
>>they accept the percentage equal
>>to the population percentage of
>>that particular state. Unfortunately, some
>>states do both, these tend
>>to te flagship institutions of
>>the states' public education system(My
>>school, The University of Missouri-Columbia,
>>is such an example). So
>>these criterion pose the question
>>to you: What exactly are
>>the reasonable proportions that will
>>help the African-American community?
>>
>>Not all HBCU's are like your school first of all, second of all the proportions are higher than in white universities, therefore we obviously still need them.

Yeah, but which universities do you have in mind? You haven't fully answered the question. Can you really accuse the University of Maryland-College Park of being racist in their admission policies if the racial percentages of the student body mirror that of the state's population? Yet, what happens when the public institution is also a very comeptitive one such as UCLA and UC-Bekeley?

>>> >
>>Okay, another question. Is there really
>>a need for a physical
>>education requirement to graduate when
>>you are a civil engineering
>>major? Do you find it
>>neccessary that physical science majors
>>are required to have a
>>foundation in humanities and liberal
>>arts?
>>
>>White Universities have these same requirements, especially concerning freshman, or sophmore year! All my friends at White Universities have these same complaints, so that has nothing to do with HBCU's! You can't put that on black colleges! You can't base your opinion on just your own black college.

Base of opinion? You misread the question, that wasn't targeted at either type of school. it was to see if you agreed that the curriculums at some schools are outdated.



>NO you didn't get it!
>Hampton is 89% black and
>11%other/white/international/asian etc. So if
>we have 11% white and
>other and were private, and
>other white schools only have
>2% black! We are more
>diverse than them! I
>am clearly not stating that
>were more diverse because we
>have majority blacks, you didn't
>read correctly!

Check these 2 key words in ya statement: "2% Black" and "11% other"

Those schools that you say have the "2% Black" also seem to have 11% Asian(or some higher percentage number) in their student populations. Are you saying that these school are less diverse because they have lesser percentages of Blacks? Also, like I stated earlier, these schools also have higher academic standards than most universities and they are private, which means that they're not cheap and affordable either.


>
>Also, there are good black colleges
>and bad black colleges, just
>like there are good and
>bad white colleges! I've
>never heard of your college,
>but it might be just
>the bad ones! You
>don't look at all white
>colleges in one lump sum,
>so why does it make
>sense to anaylze the black
>colleges as a whole!
>Not every black college is
>a Hampton, or a Howard,
>Spelman, or Morehouse! Hampton
>is the bomb, and we
>were rated in the top
>25 of all schools in
>the south U.S. news and
>world report! SO you got
>your answer right there!
>You have to look at
>them individually, that's just how
>it goes for college evaluations
>on a national level!

Go to any nedia outlet and ask about The University of Missouri-Columbia. They'll vouche I'm sure for the numbers of journalists amd journalism professionals that we produce. Hell, you see 3 of our alums on CNN on any given day.

That was the whole point of this post!!! The thinking you're implying now is that the "elite" HBCUs can survive w/o the other HBCUs. I'm asking y'all to look at the two as groups and not on an individual basis. Frankly, they should be.




little......
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http://members.blackplanet.com/GrumpyBear/
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"Life's a bitch....BUT I LOVE THAT HOE!!!" (c) AVE

No, the point is people place standards on HBCU's that they don't on HWCU's! No one lumps white schools into one big category because it's not an equal analogy. You have to look at them individually, and the main point is that as a total they are still producing, so there needed. That's it!

1. For all you black kids saying that HBCU's aren't as good strictly on an educational level, address the statement main man said about the second tier black colleges and white colleges. These colleges are not meant for those who want to be leaders, the goal of these colleges is to provide a middle class ideal to the graduating students. One of comfort in a mid-level management position and eventual retiring as to have a comfortable life.

2. Think about the creation of black schools as a sort of reaction to exploitation. Read your economics and sociology books as an explanation to understand how countries of the third world have been exploited economically by American leadership. (read the post about IMF) Once you read that you may be able to apply the statements that Solarus made about the administration operating a self-defeating manner.

3. I grew up in the whitest of white communities called Columbia, Maryland. My school was in a county where people moved to strictly for education and the chance that their children may gain a better status in society and outlook on their futures by attending these schools. I associated with white folks daily. Still can without hatred. The idea that a black college will take you out of your individualistic mode is one of a personal nature. If you want to educate and be a leader you can do that anywhere, and it's especially needed at black colleges. True it may be harder to find others who are on the same level as you socially and educationally. But when you do find those people who are willing to take discuss issues and edit papers and understand mathematical equations, you feel good because it was unexpected from a black person. That is unless you understood that these came from blacks in the first place. You have to start these things to make changes in the schools.

Hindsight is 20/20 though, that's why I have trouble with some of the statements those who down black colleges and still attend them make. There will always be mistakes that have been made by our elders. Now may be the time to correct them. If you place the fact that Benjamin Mays used Harvard as the institution whose curricula he wanted to reflect as a negative thing, that's wrong. Simply because you see a hundred years later that a more black nationalist curricula should have been set in place doesn't mean that it won't or can't, or will be any less effective simply because it's taken so long to get there.

HBCU's are good for those coming from predominately white high schools, who have already learned some of the ins and outs of working with different groups of people, but in the process may feel that they want a learning environment that encompasses their culture.

Predominately white schools are good for those who attended predominately black high schools and who haven't been exposed enough to a "multicultural" environment. Black folks tend to be tighter and more active on these campuses as well. Small numbers force them to collectively speak and act more and louder regarding any of their issues.

I am the first example and a testament to the fact that HBCU's have become business rather than education oriented, in a time wasting attempt to "keep-up" with their white counterparts.

Be suspicious of all political groups, especially one that opposes most legislation for black folks, but whole heartedly supports HBCU's.

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Root me in spirituality, water me with love, feed me with knowledge, and watch me grow.

Yes.

HBCU's serve more purposes than have been listed in this thread. One of the things I noticed in 86 when I got down to SU was the number of pre-college work that was needed for some of the students who were on the college campus. Being a competitive Northerner, I was VERY critical of the schools admissions policy. Critical enough to ask my counselor "What are these kids doing here if they can't do the work?" She very calmly explained to me: "that if we don't provide the oportunity for a higher education for our own people, who will? Those remedial courses help them thoses students who need it, advance their life."

She went on to tell me how the primary and secondary school system don't prepare our people for the next step. She got into the whole institutional racism thing and basically changed my life with that conversation.

I will be back to finish.

Peace

Wendell

I remember a psychologist (Dr. Hale, I think) making the statement that the educational system prepare Black girls for welfare lines and Black boys for the prison system. Being familiar with the public school system and working with children, I can see that this is overwhelmingly true.

Peace
Solarus

"Activism is the practice of using an internal, self-determining source of power to live one's life and/or enact some sort of change. Power is the ability to define reality, while self-determination is to decide or define one's self. Therefore activism, is not simply something done to right some wrong or to fight some cause but rather it is a way of life. Activism is the way of life where one can define self and change anything that may impede or control the reality that one chooses to live."-Solarus

Up until that conversation, I never really considered that the public school system, which the overwhelming majority of us matriculate, are geared for kids to fail. Creating a permanent underclass. This by itself is another thread.

HBCU's were created because we (Blacks) weren't allowed to attend the other schools. They are necassary now because we've created a HISTORY for ourselves to be proud about. I was part of Southern's 100th class in 90. I'm proud of that! My kids will go to Southern. Their kids will go to Southern! I personally know of families that are three and four generations deep at HBCU's. That history is important to the development of self-pride.

I'm gonna leave you with one story about one of my best friends, who lives in DC now. When we graduated from 8th grade, we went to seperate high schools. I went to Young, he went to Curie. One of his comments to me about Young was "you can't get a good education there, there's too many blacks there." I didn't recognize his conversation as intelligent, so I ignored him. Four years later, college comes around. I'm on my way to SU, he's heading to Southern Illinois (SIU). I urge him to attend a black school and once again, he tells me that I will receive an inferior education going to a "black" school. After two years in the Engineering department at SIU, HIS INSTRUCTORS are urging him to change majors because of his grades. He told me that they told him he didn't have the aptitude to learn engineering at their program. I urge him to transfer to a school that would encourage him to succeed, not QUIT! He transfers to Xavier in New Orleans and repairs his self esteem. Gets a degree in Physics, then moves on to Howard to get his Engineering degree. From there, on to Cornell (is that IVY enough for you?) to get his Masters in EE (top of his class no less). This is the same student who wasn't good enough to graduate from SIU. Who was encouraged to quit! Right now, he owns his own business and is doing very well. I know of many other stories like that, but the point is, WE NEED TO EDUCATE OURSELVES!!!! HBCU's do that very well thank you!!!

For M2, I can't blame you for thinking the way you do, that's the mentality that you were raised with. I do feel sorry for you though, because there is nothing worse than educated ingorance. History tells me that you will come to learn about being black in this country sooner or later, just keep living.

Peace

Wendell

here:

http://www.okayplayer.com/dcforum/DCForumID1/2182.html

I'm confused. Why is it that HBCU's aren't just seen as institutions that offer a higher education. They were founded in the same manner that Catholic, Protestant, and Jewish institutions were founded, to provide an education to members of these groups when other options did not exist. Today the reason that students attend HBCU's might not be directly linked to segregation, and in many cases are similar to the reasons they attend other institutions (i.e., location, programs, faculty). Face it, unless you are attending an IVY league University, most schools are lacking in many departments, so why the heavy criticism of HBCU's or the question of their continuing existence? Sure a lot of black kids don't attend HBCU's, and so what? A lot of them aren't attending college at all.

a coworker of mine read this and wants to know.

just answer the question and not read anything into it.

No, I'm black, and a proud graduate of Howard University.

but he was questioning this...

>>Face it, unless you are attending an IVY league University, most schools are lacking in many departments,

ivy league schools lack in content being just other american schools that produce nothing more than well trained AMERICANS.

>>Sure a lot of black kids don't attend HBCU's

kids!!! come on

he has another question...why proud graduate? are you in a greek sorority?