Two nights ago when they executed Timothy McVeigh.
It was nice of our country's media to show us all his final hours before he was executed by our government.

I left after two minutes of coverage and vomited because it hurt my brain and my heart and my guts...and let's be clear: I can't even begin to understand the feeling I have around Timothy McVeigh-- horror, anger, fear, desperation.

But when our federal government does this, and it's supported by a majority of the people I spend we spend our lives with every day, it makes me so sick all over I can't stand it.

Alek

______________________________________
Can't kill something that's already dead.

see: BAMBOOZLED DVD

(((((PEACE)))))
____________________________________________________________
"Considering the fact that Islam is a disgrace to human kind, Christianity is a disgrace to everything in the universe, Judiasm is just one confusing mess, and the rest of em are all praying to aliens from outer space. I say we have a religion where the only rule is that you know how to roll a Garcia Vega. Ya know? And if I can't be god, can I be one of the people who gets to make hypocritical rules and then not follow them like them stinking Catholics? Please, pretty please, with the Annunaki on top?" -ish_skywalker

I don't understand the reference. Maybe I'm missing something.

------------
vanganschan
------------
"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has exceeded our humanity." - Albert Einstein

when Savion's character was kidnapped and when Mau Mau televised his murder every news channel had the feed hook up. The way the media covered the murder in the movie was very much how they covered McVeigh's execution.

very memorable scene in the movie
but i refused to watch any of the McVeigh
thing on t.v.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
pedalling through the dark currents
i find an accurate copy
a blueprint
of the pleasure in me

(c)Bjork

http://members.blackplanet.com/ZionzFire/

if there is anyone who deserved to die it's probably him. I feel no remorse for his death, especially when i look at pictures of the bloodied children coming out of the building he blew up. i'm not a big fan of the death penalty, but i think in this case it was justified.


"...I guess I laugh to keep from crying" Q-tip

"We will be here forever. understand?! FOREVER!" KRS/?uest

"I see no changes, wake up in the morning and I ask myself, is life worth living? should i blast myself?"- Tupac

"I smoke to joints before I smoke two joints and then I smoke two more"- Bob

"It's aiight girl, it's ok" Slimm Cutta Calhoun

ICE/LD

>>if there is anyone who deserved
>to die it's probably him.
>i'm not a big fan
>of the death penalty, but
>i think in this case
>it was justified.

"Don't Hate the PLAYA Boy...hate the GAME," Granddad Freeman of the Boondocks(7-11-99)

*Twenty-three percent of women are "autoerotic singles" — they prefer to achieve sexual satisfaction alone(source-bet.com)

*If U have won a Grammy, one of two things are at play: 1. Your shit is TIGHT
2. U are white
-(Me)

"'Cuz U answer the phone 'peace' that means U not a freak?"-The Questions(c) Common

So when is it justified and when isn't it?

justified in the case of the young Brothah in Texas who was executed just last year or the year before for a crime that it was not definitively proven that he had committed. It is unjustified in cases like Mumia in PA, where the evidence predominately points to his innocence, but since careers were built on his conviction, those in power are hell-bent on proceeding in the procurement of his death. It is unjustified when the majority of people on death row are Black and Brown, but statistically, Whites commit crimes punishable by death with equal frequency as Blacks. When the death penalty ceases to be used as yet another tool to eliminate non-White people at will, in order to keep us afraid, unbalanced and confused, and is distributed to "America's sons of the Heartland", as Timothy Mc Veigh has been dubbed by the press, with the same force and vengeance that it is distributed to people of color, THEN it will be ultimately justified.


"Don't Hate the PLAYA Boy...hate the GAME," Granddad Freeman of the Boondocks(7-11-99)

*Twenty-three percent of women are "autoerotic singles" — they prefer to achieve sexual satisfaction alone(source-bet.com)

*If U have won a Grammy, one of two things are at play: 1. Your shit is TIGHT
2. U are white
-(Me)

"'Cuz U answer the phone 'peace' that means U not a freak?"-The Questions(c) Common

You just listed a million reasons that the death peanlty should be banned.

>justified in the case of the
>young Brothah in Texas who
>was executed just last year
>or the year before for
>a crime that it was
>not definitively proven that he
>had committed.

In your opinion, obviously not in the opinion of the powers that be...

It is unjustified
>in cases like Mumia in
>PA, where the evidence predominately
>points to his innocence,

See above. There will be always be wrongful convictions. If a wrongful conviction results in an execution there is NO turning back the clock when the truth comes to light. As long as we grant government the power to take our lives, those in power will use to their advantage against the weak (at least under our current culture).

When
>the death penalty is distributed to
>"America's sons of the Heartland",
>as Timothy Mc Veigh has
>been dubbed by the press,
>with the same force and
>vengeance that it is distributed
>to people of color, THEN
>it will be ultimately justified.
>

Do you really think that will ever be possible in America? Even if the racial disparties end, the economic disparities will continue. Do I deserve to die just because I cant afford a lawyer who can get me out of the death penalty?

>>You just listed a million reasons
>that the death peanlty should
>be banned.

I know. That is why I listed them.




>>justified in the case of the
>>young Brothah in Texas who
>>was executed just last year
>>or the year before for
>>a crime that it was
>>not definitively proven that he
>>had committed.
>
>In your opinion, obviously not in
>the opinion of the powers
>that be...

Actually, this is NOT just my opinion. It is also the opinion of the the throngs of people(celebrities and average citizens alike) who converged in tx to oppose this young man's execution on the basis of the fact that he never received a fair trial nor competent representation.


>> It is unjustified
>>in cases like Mumia in
>>PA, where the evidence predominately
>>points to his innocence,
>
>See above.

See above WHERE, specifically?

>> There will be always
>be wrongful convictions. If a
>wrongful conviction results in an
>execution there is NO turning
>back the clock when the
>truth comes to light. As
>long as we grant government
>the power to take our
>lives, those in power will
>use to their advantage against
>the weak (at least under
>our current culture).

What you speak of is chaos. Disorder. Or the lack of order, and justice. Neely Fuller on chaos:(From The Code)

"The White Supremacists(Racists) are the only people among the people of the known universe who are powerful enough to CAUSE or PREVENT "chaos" among the white and non-white people of the universe."


> When
>>the death penalty is distributed to
>>"America's sons of the Heartland",
>>as Timothy Mc Veigh has
>>been dubbed by the press,
>>with the same force and
>>vengeance that it is distributed
>>to people of color, THEN
>>it will be ultimately justified.
>>
>
>Do you really think that will
>ever be possible in America?


Nope. See Neely Fuller quote above.


"Don't Hate the PLAYA Boy...hate the GAME," Granddad Freeman of the Boondocks(7-11-99)

*Twenty-three percent of women are "autoerotic singles" — they prefer to achieve sexual satisfaction alone(source-bet.com)

*If U have won a Grammy, one of two things are at play: 1. Your shit is TIGHT
2. U are white
-(Me)

"'Cuz U answer the phone 'peace' that means U not a freak?"-The Questions(c) Common

>
>Actually, this is NOT just my
>opinion. It is also the
>opinion of the the throngs
>of people(celebrities and average citizens
>alike) who converged in tx
>to oppose this young man's
>execution on the basis of
>the fact that he never
>received a fair trial nor
>competent representation.

Right. I oppsed it to. But it didn't matter, 'cause the REAL powers that be (most celebrities aren't) didn't agree with us. And as long as government (no matter WHOSE government it is) has the power to take our lives, these injustices are bound to occur.

>
>
>>> It is unjustified
>>>in cases like Mumia in
>>>PA, where the evidence predominately
>>>points to his innocence,
>>
When I said see above, I meant look at my reply to what you brought up about the Texan. The same thing applies for Mumia.



>
>What you speak of is chaos.
>Disorder. Or the lack of
>order, and justice. Neely Fuller
>on chaos:(From The Code)
>
>"The White Supremacists(Racists) are the only
>people among the people of
>the known universe who are
>powerful enough to CAUSE or
>PREVENT "chaos" among the white
>and non-white people of the
>universe."

I understand, but Im not sure of the significance of this to the discussion here, explain please.

>
>
>> When
>>>the death penalty is distributed to
>>>"America's sons of the Heartland",
>>>as Timothy Mc Veigh has
>>>been dubbed by the press,
>>>with the same force and
>>>vengeance that it is distributed
>>>to people of color, THEN
>>>it will be ultimately justified.
>>>
>>
>>Do you really think that will
>>ever be possible in America?
>
>
>Nope. See Neely Fuller quote above.
>
>

So we agree?

...and scary. So the problem with the death penalty isn't that we kill people, it's that we DISCRIMINATE when we do it?

>When
>the death penalty ceases to
>be used as yet another
>tool to eliminate non-White people
>at will, in order to
>keep us afraid, unbalanced and
>confused, and is distributed to
>"America's sons of the Heartland",
>as Timothy Mc Veigh has
>been dubbed by the press,
>with the same force and
>vengeance that it is distributed
>to people of color, THEN
>it will be ultimately justified.

Wow. So...first we should use the death penalty to "eliminate" all colors of people "at will," and then it'll be justified?

Alek
______________________________________
Can't kill something that's already dead.

Timothy Mc Veigh was "eliminated" at will??? Explain THAT one to me, PLEASE.

>> So...first we should use
>the death penalty to "eliminate"
>all colors of people "at
>will," and then it'll be
>justified?

"Don't Hate the PLAYA Boy...hate the GAME," Granddad Freeman of the Boondocks(7-11-99)

*Twenty-three percent of women are "autoerotic singles" — they prefer to achieve sexual satisfaction alone(source-bet.com)

*If U have won a Grammy, one of two things are at play: 1. Your shit is TIGHT
2. U are white
-(Me)

"'Cuz U answer the phone 'peace' that means U not a freak?"-The Questions(c) Common

>You honestly think Timothy Mc Veigh was "eliminated" at
>will??? Explain THAT one to
>me, PLEASE.

You're the one that used the phrase. I think it's a fairly apt description of capital punishment, though.

Alek

______________________________________
Can't kill something that's already dead.

mimicked it. So, tell me, how does that apply to Timothy Mc Veigh? I was using "elimination at will" in reference to people of color, NOT Timothy Mc Veigh.


>>You're the one that used the
>phrase. I think it's
>a fairly apt description of
>capital punishment, though.
"Don't Hate the PLAYA Boy...hate the GAME," Granddad Freeman of the Boondocks(7-11-99)

*Twenty-three percent of women are "autoerotic singles" — they prefer to achieve sexual satisfaction alone(source-bet.com)

*If U have won a Grammy, one of two things are at play: 1. Your shit is TIGHT
2. U are white
-(Me)

"'Cuz U answer the phone 'peace' that means U not a freak?"-The Questions(c) Common

he didn't get the normal lengthy appeals process; his execution occurred much earlier than others scheduled to die; even after the FBI released documents about how they butchered his case (which could have actually overturned his verdict on technicalities from what I've read in the news), they ushered his death along.....in a sense, he was eliminated at will....


↑ yours

"you and whose army?" - thom yorke

™ & © & Æ

*Alter Your Ego*

your argument, why'd you put it out there? What IS your argument? THAT is what "I" am interested in.


"Don't Hate the PLAYA Boy...hate the GAME," Granddad Freeman of the Boondocks(7-11-99)

*Twenty-three percent of women are "autoerotic singles" — they prefer to achieve sexual satisfaction alone(source-bet.com)

*If U have won a Grammy, one of two things are at play: 1. Your shit is TIGHT
2. U are white
-(Me)

"'Cuz U answer the phone 'peace' that means U not a freak?"-The Questions(c) Common

>So, tell me, how
>does that apply to Timothy
>Mc Veigh? I was using
>"elimination at will" in reference
>to people of color, NOT
>Timothy Mc Veigh.

Well, our government, all three branches in partnership, murdered this criminal for his crime.
He was eliminated at will.

Alek

______________________________________
Can't kill something that's already dead.

>i'm not a big fan
>of the death penalty, but
>i think in this case
>it was justified.

When people say this it almost sends me into a rage. "Normally I have a progressive humanist opinion, but in this case I don't and the fact that I've completely negated whatever ethics I might possess doesn't bother me at all."

Let me explain something. If you think the death penalty is "justified," anytime, anywhere, YOU ARE A BIG FAN OF IT.

People who support the death penalty believe that one can put an objective value on human life, AND that one human being can stand in mortal judgement over another.

Even if you were a judge and deemed 999 out of 1000 heinous criminals undeserving of the death penalty, you'd STILL be in full support of capital punishment.

Think it through.

Alek
______________________________________
Can't kill something that's already dead.

>People who support the death penalty
>believe that one can put
>an objective value on human
>life, AND that one human
>being can stand in mortal
>judgement over another.

That being said, didn't McVeigh act out the same way in committing his crime?




"The reason most black folks don't have any culture is because it is out on loan to white people. With no interest."
(c)Ralph Wiley

little......
*************************************
http://members.blackplanet.com/GrumpyBear/
*************************************

"Life's a bitch....BUT I LOVE THAT BROAD!!!" (c) AVE.....http://www.tha-renaissance.com/

and....is there a point you are trying to make? The only one I can find in your post is so poor as to prohibit my stating it (lest it make me sound stupid). Go ask a kindergartener if your logic is moral...

"I've been very lonely in my isolated tower of indecipherable speech"--Being John Malkovich

"Killing fields need blood to graze the cash cow..."--Mos Def

"No matter how insane and dispicable you act, I can one up you, because I work for the government."--Million Dollar Hotel

"I'm not racist--I LOVE Hip-Hop."--DarkStar

My point was that the punishment fit the crime. People died for him to make a point(what that was, I dunno). I for the death penalty, through and through. But let me be clear thst I am against the way my country uses it. In this particukar case, whether he acted alone or was assisted, he deserved to die for killing 168 people.



"The reason most black folks don't have any culture is because it is out on loan to white people. With no interest."
(c)Ralph Wiley

little......
*************************************
http://members.blackplanet.com/GrumpyBear/
*************************************

"Life's a bitch....BUT I LOVE THAT BROAD!!!" (c) AVE.....http://www.tha-renaissance.com/

So I take it you argue reciprocity as moral in all other instances as well. For instance, if someone steals, their punishment should only be to be stolen from. If someone perjurs, their punishment should only be to be perjured against? I'm glad you'll put your stamp of approval on the state meting out these punishments. That will make me feel much better as I watch the insanity.

He killed people, that was immoral. So explain to me where the morality lies in killing him?

The fact of the matter is that we grant the state what they take from us. We tell the state (or, more often, it tells us) what rights we want it to protect...and it says "ok, but in order to protect those rights, I will have to take them away at will". And we lovingly respond "OK".

"I've been very lonely in my isolated tower of indecipherable speech"--Being John Malkovich

"Killing fields need blood to graze the cash cow..."--Mos Def

"No matter how insane and dispicable you act, I can one up you, because I work for the government."--Million Dollar Hotel

"I'm not racist--I LOVE Hip-Hop."--DarkStar

>So I take it you argue
>reciprocity as moral in all
>other instances as well.
>For instance, if someone steals,
>their punishment should only be
>to be stolen from.
>If someone perjurs, their punishment
>should only be to be
>perjured against?

Hate to disappoint you, but I disagree with Kant-like ideology. Murder and robbery/theft/larceny are two different things. Terrorism for a cause is one thing, and it has no straightforward road with me either. However, for someone to plant a bomb where there are women and children present is the utmost display of cowardess. Thass some punk shit!!! Bottom line.


I'm glad
>you'll put your stamp of
>approval on the state meting
>out these punishments. That
>will make me feel much
>better as I watch the
>insanity.

Last time I checked, and it is the matter at hand, it was the government represented by the people, who decided this man's fate. Besides, he decided the fates of 168 people, of which he had NO authority to do so. just as fair it seems to me that "we who have no authority" took his life and called it a day.


>
>He killed people, that was immoral.
> So explain to me
>where the morality lies in
>killing him?

I will say this, there is no morality in killing. Neither is there any justice in letting him live out the rest of his life hoping that he is psychologically tortured by the thoughts of his actions. I'd rather he die than for him to rott in jail until he's an old man.








little......
*************************************
http://members.blackplanet.com/GrumpyBear/
*************************************

"Life's a bitch....BUT I LOVE THAT BROAD!!!" (c) AVE.....http://www.tha-renaissance.com/

>I will say this, there is
>no morality in killing. Neither
>is there any justice in
>letting him live out the
>rest of his life hoping
>that he is psychologically tortured
>by the thoughts of his
>actions.

I don't hope that. Why the hell would anyone hope that? I'm not saying I don't want him to realize the consequences of his actions, but if he spends the rest of his life trying to make up for it (which I think he should do, instead of being locked away somewhere alone for 70 years) then we'll have less torture and more positive action.

Alek

______________________________________
Can't kill something that's already dead.

> However, for someone
>to plant a bomb where
>there are women and children
>present is the utmost display
>of cowardess. Thass some punk
>shit!!! Bottom line.

right.

so, if it were a building full of men, it would have been all good, right?

that 'women and children' line is so trite and tired. murder is murder is murder. whether it's men, women, OR children.

why do people make that distinction?

"hey he killed 168 people, but WAIT, there weren't any women or children among the casaulties!"

"whew, we almost lost a woman. Close one, Bill."

Thoughtfully yours,

Spirit Equality

The Rebels are coming...be aware...

http://www.mp3.com/miscellaneousflux - God is hiding between the notes

>My point was that the punishment
>fit the crime. People died
>for him to make a
>point(what that was, I dunno).
>I for the death penalty,
>through and through. But let
>me be clear thst I
>am against the way my
>country uses it. In this
>particukar case, whether he acted
>alone or was assisted, he
>deserved to die for killing
>168 people.
If you feel that way, then there shouldn't be any (or very few) white people walking around today..

Q

(I'm just sayin' tho'!)

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^*********^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Uplifting thoughts:

"We are the end result of our ancestors prayers as they died. We you are the sum total of their answered prayers."

"I am because we are; we are because I am."

"falling in love with somebody's soul...their essence their personality their walk their talk the way they speak and smile...no matter what the physical outer body is..male or female...is a temptation i hope i am never foolish enough to resist." - Hot Damali

There would just be alot more minorities in the US...


little......
*************************************
http://members.blackplanet.com/GrumpyBear/
*************************************

"Life's a bitch....BUT I LOVE THAT BROAD!!!" (c) AVE.....http://www.tha-renaissance.com/

>That being said, didn't McVeigh act
>out the same way in
>committing his crime?

Yes, and that's one of the reasons why WE don't do it.

Alek
______________________________________
Can't kill something that's already dead.

as long as the stipulations of my "It Isn't" message are in place, which I don't expect to see in this lifetime. Until then, if we were to vote on it today as a country, and my vote wasn't nullified again because I am Black, I'd vote against capital punishment.


"Don't Hate the PLAYA Boy...hate the GAME," Granddad Freeman of the Boondocks(7-11-99)

*Twenty-three percent of women are "autoerotic singles" — they prefer to achieve sexual satisfaction alone(source-bet.com)

*If U have won a Grammy, one of two things are at play: 1. Your shit is TIGHT
2. U are white
-(Me)

"'Cuz U answer the phone 'peace' that means U not a freak?"-The Questions(c) Common

............that the divine right of kinds/rulers/governments ended years ago. Just because you're the government, does not give you the right to murder.

Human Lives are sacred, no matter how dispicable the acts they may have comitted. NO ONE has the right to kill another human being, UNLESS it is in Self Defense and they have no other choice.

And NO....Self Defense doesn't mean someone disrespecting your supposed authority (running from cops) or that YOU MIGHT be in danger.

Just because you're a cop, executioner, prison guard...etc....does not give you the right to kill people......even as punishment for your crimes.

It makes me sick that people simply shut off the part of them that respects Human life, simply because that person has done something terrible, or because they simply don't value that person's life for whatever reason.

-Murderers
-Blacks
-Gays
-Ethnic Minorities
-Criminals that run from cops
-Innocent people that reach for their wallets when approached by the cops
-People who have committed treason

People may say: "Oh that's terrible" but they still defend the murder or in other cases.....celebrate it. When people do that, they are no better then the murderer.

See where this leads? We start putting value on Human life, at one point it was okay to kill Blacks at will....now it's ok to kill criminals....or people who are suspected (because of statistics or whatever) of being criminals....it's all the same shit. We simply give someone a label, that denotes them as not worthy of life.....and then we inject them with lead/electricity/poison and smile and say..."justice was served" "the cop was justified" "s/he wasn't an angel"


Sick, Just fucking sick.




Peace,






M2

i was bout to say something of the other posts. "deserving" to die?!? for real, let it be known that certain people would have their blood spilled if certain individuals were in power and deemed the prior "deserving" of death. some say he deserved it...i hope those same people can dodge a flaming sword when the time comes...

(((((PEACE)))))
____________________________________________________________
"Considering the fact that Islam is a disgrace to human kind, Christianity is a disgrace to everything in the universe, Judiasm is just one confusing mess, and the rest of em are all praying to aliens from outer space. I say we have a religion where the only rule is that you know how to roll a Garcia Vega. Ya know? And if I can't be god, can I be one of the people who gets to make hypocritical rules and then not follow them like them stinking Catholics? Please, pretty please, with the Annunaki on top?" -ish_skywalker

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
"The one whose faith is perfect is afflicted by the whisperer(shaytaan). The thief does not bother entering a ruined house."-(al-Jawahir al-Hisan)

>let
>it be known that certain
>people would have their blood
>spilled if certain individuals were
>in power and deemed the
>prior "deserving" of death. some
>say he deserved it...i hope
>those same people can dodge
>a flaming sword when the
>time comes...

...yeah. I'm assuming you're joking to make a point, but even so. You're saying that it's the prerogative of those in power to decide who deserves to die?

Or it's just YOUR prerogative when YOU'RE in power.

Alek
______________________________________
Can't kill something that's already dead.

just track record and tendencie...
whether its just is another thing, i hope i will be.

(((((PEACE)))))
____________________________________________________________
"Considering the fact that Islam is a disgrace to human kind, Christianity is a disgrace to everything in the universe, Judiasm is just one confusing mess, and the rest of em are all praying to aliens from outer space. I say we have a religion where the only rule is that you know how to roll a Garcia Vega. Ya know? And if I can't be god, can I be one of the people who gets to make hypocritical rules and then not follow them like them stinking Catholics? Please, pretty please, with the Annunaki on top?" -ish_skywalker

______________________________________
Can't kill something that's already dead.

Y'all enjoy whatever life you have because someone has decided to kill on your behalf and will again to protect what you have.

Don't act like murder is wrong when you sit in relative safety because someone else holds the threat of murder over the heads of people who would act differently towards you right now if it wasn't for the threat.

How does killing Timothy McVeigh (who was already incarcerated and thus harmless) make things safer for me? It makes things LESS safe for me. The government could do the same damn shit to me.

...the "mutually assured destruction" theory, or rather the "US has the biggest guns, so nobody better fuck with us theory"...or was she? you know, the whole idea that our police-military infrastructure discourages crime or military attacks against US citizens...it's all arguable, but I think it is an interesting theory...does the fact that the FBI/police act so swiftly against domestic terrorists keep the US from becoming like, say, Ireland or Israel where a random car bomb kills 100 or so people every few months? it's all debatable.

the idea is: kill tim mcveigh, discourage future tim mcveighs.

i am anti-death penalty, but i understand the logistics of the other side's argument.

Thoughtfully yours,

Spirit Equality

The Rebels are coming...be aware...

http://www.mp3.com/miscellaneousflux - God is hiding between the notes

It's just interesting to me that states with the penalty tend to have higher murder rates than states without it. So in practice, the death penalty as a deterrent has yet to be proved. Personally I think people that commit these crimes often don't really have the consequences in mind or don't even care. I'm not sure....

...but I was expecting it because I got the advance weather from hell this morning.
:-)


>NO ONE
>has the right to kill
>another human being, UNLESS it
>is in Self Defense and
>they have no other choice.

And in this case, I don't think I'd call it a "right." It's an extremely unfortunate necessity.

But yeah, I completely agree.

Alek
______________________________________
Can't kill something that's already dead.

>It makes me sick that people
>simply shut off the part
>of them that respects Human
>life, simply because that person
>has done something terrible, or
>because they simply don't value
>that person's life for whatever
>reason.
>
>-Murderers
>-Blacks
>-Gays
>-Ethnic Minorities
>-Criminals that run from cops
>-Innocent people that reach for their
>wallets when approached by the
>cops
>-People who have committed treason
>
>People may say: "Oh that's terrible"
>but they still defend the
>murder or in other cases.....celebrate
>it. When people do that,
>they are no better then
>the murderer.

this happened in my area recently...a kid (he was only in his early 20s i believe) got caught robbing someone's house...ran from the cops...obviously scared out of his mind by the video of the way he was driving to get away...the cops started shooting bean bags or whatever those things are to 'scare him' (as if he wasn't already scared enough)...long story short they shoot him to death in the car in the middle of traffic...i still can't believe this story...makes me sick...for a home invasion he's now dead...every time i drive down the road he died on i still get chills up and down my spine...yes he did something wrong...but NOTHING to justify his death...


Mic1L@aol.com

.....is calling the cops because someone is breaking into my apartment.....and the cops shooting ME when they show up.

Let's just face it, in my development there are about 10 Black Families........and in my particular section....it's just Me, The Indian family and the Korean/Black family......


so when the cops show up, they're going to assume I'm the criminal....and after they shoot/tazer my behind......I wouldn't be surprised if the criminals get's a bright idea and says:

"Yeah, that's the one....he tried to rob me......take him away....give a brief statement...grab my car keys off my desk....and drive away"

By the time the cops figure it out, (when I awake...if I do) my car will be at the illegal chop shop.....and my house will empty.


So tired of cops shooting people for simply trying to escape, these people are suspected criminals.....what do you expect to them do?! Surrender?



Peace,




M2

scary thought...

>So tired of cops shooting people for simply trying to escape, >these people are suspected criminals.....what do you expect to >them do?! Surrender?

exactly...u know if someone is in the middle of committing a 'criminal' act they aren't thinking straight in the moment to begin with...and suddenly they are expected to act accordingly when someone in uniform pulls weapons on them...shouldn't officers realize this...oh god bless america (she says sarcastically)

Mic1L@aol.com

the cops thinkin you the criminal and possibly blastin on you, then dont forget to descibe yourself when callin in!!!!

btw the way, what do you want the cops to do to the criminal when he is breaking into your house?

cant you do the same thing that they will do except take him downtown?

meanwhile, while your calling the cops, he is 99% closer to causing harm to your family.

scratch that over here.
i dare, no. double dare, no. TRIPLE DARE somebody to come up in my crib w/o knocking and getting permission.................

7.62 x 39 ammo is no joke!!!!!!!!!!!
esp. at about 10 to 15 ft.!!!!!!!!!!

call the ambulance to come get him, AND I MEAN THAT!!!!!!!!

subhaanakallahumma (Glory be to you, Oh Allah), wabihamdika (and I praise You). ashhadu anla ilaha illa anta (I bear witness that none has the right to be worshipped except You). astaghfiruka (I seek Your forgiveness), wa attuubu ilaika (and I turn to You in Repentance).

I'm not THAT worried, it's just a concern. In any event, by the time the cops even get called the criminal will regret his decision to come into my house.

7.65 eh? Those can definitely do some damage....particularly at in house range.

In any event, my area is fairly crime free......and I suspect that if a breakin happens.....it will happen during the day. I'm not extremely worried about it.....but if it happpens......I'd take care of it......and be waiting down the Block......just in case.......


Besides, being Black in a neighboorhood full of whites is a great way to keep from being robbed. Since almost anyone who would try to rob me would be white, and with white folks fear of Black people......





Peace,




M2

Us americans have been desensetized. that's why we can kill so easily.

peace
k. orr

well,.............yall know the rest!!!

and in his case, ".........if you cant take the punishment".

simple and fair.

subhaanakallahumma (Glory be to you, Oh Allah), wabihamdika (and I praise You). ashhadu anla ilaha illa anta (I bear witness that none has the right to be worshipped except You). astaghfiruka (I seek Your forgiveness), wa attuubu ilaika (and I turn to You in Repentance).

If Tim McVeigh has to be put to death to make the families of the victims feel a lil' better than so be it. You give him life imprisonment its the same thing, it just takes a lot longer.

the older family members would be dead by then...america just wanted a modern day lynching. thise that lynched agreed upon the runnaway slave being wrong, so has this society that says tim was a moster. the public display of it was just to quench the collective thirst for blood.


(((((PEACE)))))
____________________________________________________________
"Considering the fact that Islam is a disgrace to human kind, Christianity is a disgrace to everything in the universe, Judiasm is just one confusing mess, and the rest of em are all praying to aliens from outer space. I say we have a religion where the only rule is that you know how to roll a Garcia Vega. Ya know? And if I can't be god, can I be one of the people who gets to make hypocritical rules and then not follow them like them stinking Catholics? Please, pretty please, with the Annunaki on top?" -ish_skywalker

They did not call him a monster. They called him a hometown boy fromt the Heartland, gone wrong. I can BARELY type that w/ a straight face.....


>>so
>has this society that says
>tim was a moster. the
>public display of it was
>just to quench the collective
>thirst for blood.
>
>
>(((((PEACE)))))
"Don't Hate the PLAYA Boy...hate the GAME," Granddad Freeman of the Boondocks(7-11-99)

*Twenty-three percent of women are "autoerotic singles" — they prefer to achieve sexual satisfaction alone(source-bet.com)

*If U have won a Grammy, one of two things are at play: 1. Your shit is TIGHT
2. U are white
-(Me)

"'Cuz U answer the phone 'peace' that means U not a freak?"-The Questions(c) Common

>If Tim McVeigh has to be
>put to death to make
>the families of the victims
>feel a lil' better than
>so be it.

...could you kill Michael Eisner for me? It would make me feel at least a lil' better.

Alek

______________________________________
Can't kill something that's already dead.

>>could you kill Michael Eisner for
>me? It would make
>me feel at least a
>lil' better.



"Don't Hate the PLAYA Boy...hate the GAME," Granddad Freeman of the Boondocks(7-11-99)

*Twenty-three percent of women are "autoerotic singles" — they prefer to achieve sexual satisfaction alone(source-bet.com)

*If U have won a Grammy, one of two things are at play: 1. Your shit is TIGHT
2. U are white
-(Me)

"'Cuz U answer the phone 'peace' that means U not a freak?"-The Questions(c) Common

______________________________________
Can't kill something that's already dead.

....and he took them away.

.........so why should he have any.

and since there are those that believe that he should not have been killed, then what?
what to do with him?

stick him in prison, perhaps?
let him get a college degree while in there, meanwhile.......thosee that have never did any such thing, cant even get anybody to help them w/ tuition?!?

let him have food and shelter everyday, meanwhile......ppl are living on the streets w/a empty stomach?!?

let him have a new start on his life, meanwhile...........the victims families cant even get over their loss?!?

WHAT?


subhaanakallahumma (Glory be to you, Oh Allah), wabihamdika (and I praise You). ashhadu anla ilaha illa anta (I bear witness that none has the right to be worshipped except You). astaghfiruka (I seek Your forgiveness), wa attuubu ilaika (and I turn to You in Repentance).

you're interferring/taking away(slowly) my right to clean air...so can i send my mercenaries to deal justice?

(((((PEACE)))))
____________________________________________________________
"Considering the fact that Islam is a disgrace to human kind, Christianity is a disgrace to everything in the universe, Judiasm is just one confusing mess, and the rest of em are all praying to aliens from outer space. I say we have a religion where the only rule is that you know how to roll a Garcia Vega. Ya know? And if I can't be god, can I be one of the people who gets to make hypocritical rules and then not follow them like them stinking Catholics? Please, pretty please, with the Annunaki on top?" -ish_skywalker

you're interferring/taking away(slowly) my right to HAVE AIR, PERIOD-POINT BLANK!!!!!!!!!

so can i send
MY mercenaries to deal justice?

smart ass

>(((((PEACE)))))
subhaanakallahumma (Glory be to you, Oh Allah), wabihamdika (and I praise You). ashhadu anla ilaha illa anta (I bear witness that none has the right to be worshipped except You). astaghfiruka (I seek Your forgiveness), wa attuubu ilaika (and I turn to You in Repentance).

>>so can i send
MY mercenaries to deal justice?

of course, if you have the ability you can do whatever you want. but this is more along the lines of why people allow this to happen. basically one group (usually in power) inflicts its views upon another (usually fewer in number and weaker). point being the situation can flip in a heartbeat and someone might deem you the timothy mcveigh next time. *remember, the first people suspected of that very bombing were muslims* those in power can do whatever, and change WILL come. those saying he deserves death might be those who deserve death by some other group later on down the line. try walking in a PETA meeting with a fur coat on.

(((((PEACE)))))
____________________________________________________________
"Considering the fact that Islam is a disgrace to human kind, Christianity is a disgrace to everything in the universe, Judiasm is just one confusing mess, and the rest of em are all praying to aliens from outer space. I say we have a religion where the only rule is that you know how to roll a Garcia Vega. Ya know? And if I can't be god, can I be one of the people who gets to make hypocritical rules and then not follow them like them stinking Catholics? Please, pretty please, with the Annunaki on top?" -ish_skywalker

>>>so can i send
>MY mercenaries to deal justice?
>
>of course, if you have the
>ability you can do whatever
>you want. but this is
>more along the lines of
>why people allow this to
>happen. basically one group (usually
>in power) inflicts its views
>upon another (usually fewer in
>number and weaker).

maybe you werent paying attention, but their views were incohesion and not conflicting-DEATH!!! irregardless in this case, who was in power, who was weaker, etc.....

point being
>the situation can flip in
>a heartbeat and someone might
>deem you the timothy mcveigh
>next time. *remember, the first
>people suspected of that very
>bombing were muslims*

actually, i dont remember.
i wasnt muslim then, or even all that concerned w/ anything such as that.
but i KNOW NOW.

those in
>power can do whatever, and
>change WILL come. those saying
>he deserves death might be
>those who deserve death by
>some other group later on
>down the line. try walking
>in a PETA meeting with
>a fur coat on.

the point is......that he DESERVED DEATH, BECAUSE HE DEALT IT.
not because of treason to the government, etc,.... WHICH IS THE REAL REASON (TRUST ME ON THAT) why he got it.

like Hanssen, the us/ussr spy, is gonna get it. call me when they execute him for treason, and ask me about "deserving", then well have something to talk about/discuss/debate/argue over.

and i think thats what the poster who said that and the poster who concurred were saying.

and really, if you dont agree w/ his execution, then you should rethink your position as an "Afrikan". why? what makes tims case any different from the slavers case?!?

and if you dont agree tim didnt "deserve" death, b/c of what he did, then surely you dont think that the slavers "deserved" death for what they did.

and NO AFRIKAN, bootlicker on up, will agree to that!!!!!


subhaanakallahumma (Glory be to you, Oh Allah), wabihamdika (and I praise You). ashhadu anla ilaha illa anta (I bear witness that none has the right to be worshipped except You). astaghfiruka (I seek Your forgiveness), wa attuubu ilaika (and I turn to You in Repentance).

perhaps its the disgust at the hypocritical bloodthirsty american media/culture/society that has me thinking this way. personally, given some of tim's characteristics :) i really didn't give a fuck, just one less...

but since i'm the angel of death (hopefully) i really do understand the retribution of the events that took place from an afrikan perspective. seeing people happy and comforted like a problem was solved though was just sad to watch. the people here at work about threw a party...but they'll meet the blade soon enough...

prophecy.


(((((PEACE)))))
____________________________________________________________
"Considering the fact that Islam is a disgrace to human kind, Christianity is a disgrace to everything in the universe, Judiasm is just one confusing mess, and the rest of em are all praying to aliens from outer space. I say we have a religion where the only rule is that you know how to roll a Garcia Vega. Ya know? And if I can't be god, can I be one of the people who gets to make hypocritical rules and then not follow them like them stinking Catholics? Please, pretty please, with the Annunaki on top?" -ish_skywalker

the
>people here at work about
>threw a party...

those are some sick people, and that's the epitome of American, violence-obsessed society.

i think i get your angle but set me straight if i am incorrect. your problem has LESS to do with Tim and MORE to do with extreme hypocrisy and the ALL TO EASY manipulation of the people through the media. how EASY it is to get the public to support you if YOU appear as the underdog(be it true or false...see Gladiator). manipulation is very powerful to unsuspecting victims as the American public who will CRY to hear BOTH sides if they were under persecution but they (knowingly or unknowingly) REMOVE that right when they accept ANYTHING that the media says as PURE fact.

my husbands father lived in Isreal for a VERY long time. One time his family members saw something on CNN that just showed Arabs comming back into a territory in mass numbers. CNN said that the arabs were going to ATTACK the area that my father in law lived in, my father i.l. told his fam that he STILL has to go to work so he hung up the phone and went out. GUess what was happening there? not a DAMN thing. people being ALLOWED back into a territory to grab thier belongings...

If you ask me, Tim is a patsy or something. no man acts alone. he does not display ANY of the physcological traits of a person who would do such a thing. I think that the govt was trying to label ANYONE so that someone will look like they paid, and so the US won't look like a punk. this was afterall the US' "worst terrorist attack"(see Native Americans Slaughtered back in tha day...)

my Islamic point of view? no one it to be declared guilty if they do not have the proper amount of witnesses which is 4! 4 EYE witnesses who swear they saw this act among other things.

I didn't see Tim do anything but wear a bad haircut and hold a gun in desert storm....






~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
"The one whose faith is perfect is afflicted by the whisperer(shaytaan). The thief does not bother entering a ruined house."-(al-Jawahir al-Hisan)

4 eyewitnesses? U think we should adopt that standard in legislation? Let's remember to TRY to keep church and state seperated! Justice must try to be maintained.

"The task of philosophy is learning how to die." - Socrates

"Drink Bud Light beer with Buzz Lightyear."- RZA

"Socialism...let's hear that dirty word."-Jay Bulworth

next...god and science....mathematics from psychology....emotion from action....GODDAMN western perspective...oh well. i feel you sudani

(((((PEACE)))))
____________________________________________________________
"Considering the fact that Islam is a disgrace to human kind, Christianity is a disgrace to everything in the universe, Judiasm is just one confusing mess, and the rest of em are all praying to aliens from outer space. I say we have a religion where the only rule is that you know how to roll a Garcia Vega. Ya know? And if I can't be god, can I be one of the people who gets to make hypocritical rules and then not follow them like them stinking Catholics? Please, pretty please, with the Annunaki on top?" -ish_skywalker

I agree- Western thought can be corrupting i.e. medical communities ignorance of how the mind can affect health BUT on this issue suggesting that 4 eyewitness should be needed to convict?? I wonder if your loved one was murdered with 3 eyewitnesses would you still maintain that opinion. Extremist views are necessary- but in the end the more rational thinking leaves you somewhere in the middle. You have to play the game a bit to achieve change...or do you?

"The task of philosophy is learning how to die." - Socrates

"Drink Bud Light beer with Buzz Lightyear."- RZA

"Socialism...let's hear that dirty word."-Jay Bulworth

let us think about maintaining justice when there are SEVERAL innocent people in jail due to....lack of witnesses and specualtion..many cases opening back up because of DNA...men and women spending LARGE portions of thier lives in prison....i guess you will call the same people who cried about ALL men being equall while knowingly supporting inhumane acts of the opposite belief, JUST? a more ignorant comment than most... i guess it won't really be good legislation until it hits closer to home...


~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
"The one whose faith is perfect is afflicted by the whisperer(shaytaan). The thief does not bother entering a ruined house."-(al-Jawahir al-Hisan)

on truly being "Afrikan" all the time, Abduhu. It's interesting to me that someone else has made the same observation. Many of his views are very individualistic, which is as diametrically opposed to Afrikan thought as one could get. E.G. see thread on the Impact of Sheer Laziness.

peace.

>>and really, if you dont agree
>w/ his execution, then you
>should rethink your position as
>an "Afrikan". why? what makes
>tims case any different from
>the slavers case?!?
>
>and if you dont agree tim
>didnt "deserve" death, b/c of
>what he did, then surely
>you dont think that the
>slavers "deserved" death for what
>they did.
>
>and NO AFRIKAN, bootlicker on up,
>will agree to that!!!!!
>
>
>subhaanakallahumma (Glory be to you, Oh
>Allah), wabihamdika (and I praise
>You). ashhadu anla ilaha illa
>anta (I bear witness that
>none has the right to
>be worshipped except You). astaghfiruka
>(I seek Your forgiveness), wa
>attuubu ilaika (and I turn
>to You in Repentance).


"Don't Hate the PLAYA Boy...hate the GAME," Granddad Freeman of the Boondocks(7-11-99)

*Twenty-three percent of women are "autoerotic singles" — they prefer to achieve sexual satisfaction alone(source-bet.com)

*If U have won a Grammy, one of two things are at play: 1. Your shit is TIGHT
2. U are white
-(Me)

"'Cuz U answer the phone 'peace' that means U not a freak?"-The Questions(c) Common

>those people had rights and he took them away.
>.........so why should he have any.

Because EVERYBODY HAS THEM. That's how "human rights" work. Every single human being deserves those basic human rights, and that includes our president, it includes Pinochet, it includes neo-nazis and it includes Timothy McVeigh.

>what to do with him?
>stick him in prison, perhaps?

Perhaps. Or he could do community service for 65 years.

>let him get a college degree
>while in there, meanwhile.......thosee that
>have never did any such
>thing, cant even get anybody
>to help them w/ tuition?!?

This is such poor debate. Come on, if you want to condemn the prison system, be my guest. But don't mix your arguments...there are plenty of reasons (all of which need immediate addressing) why people don't have access to higher education. Getting edged out by convicts is not the main one.

>let him have food and shelter
>everyday, meanwhile......ppl are living on
>the streets w/a empty stomach?!?

See above.

>let him have a new start
>on his life, meanwhile...........the victims
>families cant even get over
>their loss?!?

You call numerous consecutive life sentences "a new start?"

I think he deserves to continue living his life, but he should spend it dealing with the consequences of what he did, and doing ALL he can to repair the damage.

Alek


______________________________________
Can't kill something that's already dead.

>>those people had rights and he took them away.
>>.........so why should he have any.
>
>Because EVERYBODY HAS THEM. That's
>how "human rights" work.
>Every single human being deserves
>those basic human rights, and
>that includes our president, it
>includes Pinochet, it includes neo-nazis
>and it includes Timothy McVeigh.

is that how human rights works?
let me ask you something, who gave us "those" human rights?
as a matter of fact, scratch that.

you answered it yourself. "basic human rights". HA!!!
like there are multi-tier levels to human rights or something.

btw, i noticed you mentioned neo-nazis.
how about the original nazis including hitler himself. ya think they had those "basic" human rights?

>
>>what to do with him?
>>stick him in prison, perhaps?
>
>Perhaps. Or he could do
>community service for 65 years.

are you kidding me?!?

>>let him get a college degree
>>while in there, meanwhile.......thosee that
>>have never did any such
>>thing, cant even get anybody
>>to help them w/ tuition?!?
>
>This is such poor debate.
>Come on, if you want
>to condemn the prison system,
>be my guest. But
>don't mix your arguments...there are
>plenty of reasons (all of
>which need immediate addressing) why
>people don't have access to
>higher education. Getting edged
>out by convicts is not
>the main one.

thats besides the point. THE FACT and POINT IS that when he is in prison, he will possibly get all those things that others are more deserving of. got it.

>
>>let him have food and shelter
>>everyday, meanwhile......ppl are living on
>>the streets w/a empty stomach?!?
>
>See above.
see above!

>>let him have a new start
>>on his life, meanwhile...........the victims
>>families cant even get over
>>their loss?!?
>
>You call numerous consecutive life sentences
>"a new start?"

i see you didnt address the real victims plight.

>I think he deserves to continue
>living his life, but he
>should spend it dealing with
>the consequences of what he
>did, and doing ALL he
>can to repair the damage.
>
>
>Alek

well thats what you think.
and i think he got what he deserved.

abduhu

as a matter of fact, forget everything that i said above.
i just realized something..........what YOU rather have for tims punishment is no different then what the government wanted.........and that is to DEFINE ones rights and to ultimately have them AT YOUR DISPOSAL. if you disagree w/ this, i will show you with YOUR OWN words!!!!

dont you think having him clean up every weekend is taking away from his right to freedom and to do what he wants on those weekends?

dont you think consecutive life sentences take away from his rights to freedom of the outside world?

why do YOU get to decide HIS "BASIC" HUMAN RIGHTS, and nobody else?!?
who do you think you are?!?
the government!!!!!!

subhaanakallahumma (Glory be to you, Oh Allah), wabihamdika (and I praise You). ashhadu anla ilaha illa anta (I bear witness that none has the right to be worshipped except You). astaghfiruka (I seek Your forgiveness), wa attuubu ilaika (and I turn to You in Repentance).

>>Because EVERYBODY HAS THEM. That's
>>how "human rights" work.
>>Every single human being deserves
>>those basic human rights, and
>>that includes our president, it
>>includes Pinochet, it includes neo-nazis
>>and it includes Timothy McVeigh.

>is that how human rights works?

Yes it is, as far as I'm concerned. Of course the UN, the ACLU, the NAACP, the AFL-CIO, and the Bill of Rights all agree with me on that.

>you answered it yourself. "basic human
>rights". HA!!!
>like there are multi-tier levels to
>human rights or something.

No, there aren't. The reason they're called "basic" is because everybody who lives on this earth is entitled to them, AND because they're necessary to survival.

>btw, i noticed you mentioned neo-nazis.
>
>how about the original nazis including
>hitler himself. ya think they
>had those "basic" human rights?

Most did. It wasn't the "Neuremburg Executions," was it?

>>>what to do with him?
>>>stick him in prison, perhaps?

>>Perhaps. Or he could do
>>community service for 65 years.

>are you kidding me?!?

No. It's better than him sitting in a cell for 65 years.

>thats besides the point. THE FACT
>and POINT IS that when
>he is in prison, he
>will possibly get all those
>things that others are more
>deserving of. got it.

I see. "More deserving of." Well guess what? If you own more than one car, more than one pair of shoes, if you've been to the movies twice, you're getting plenty of things that others are "more deserving of," at least according to your rationale.

>>>let him have a new start
>>>on his life, meanwhile...........the victims
>>>families cant even get over
>>>their loss?!?
>>
>>You call numerous consecutive life sentences
>>"a new start?"

>i see you didnt address the
>real victims plight.

I don't see how I could. Do I know how to heal someone's grief?
I'm just saying that your outrage is possibly misplaced.
Do you think killing more people helps heal a community or a family?

>i just realized something..........what YOU rather
>have for tims punishment is
>no different then what the
>government wanted.........and that is to
>DEFINE ones rights and to
>ultimately have them AT YOUR
>DISPOSAL.

NO. I spoke of judging the worth of HUMAN LIFE. I think the right to be alive is a "basic human right."

I believe he should be punished, because he violated exactly that human right for 168 people.

But what basic human rights means is that under any condition, at ANY time, even if one is in jail or in a coma or in an infant nursery, those rights aren't violated.

>dont you think having him clean
>up every weekend is taking
>away from his right to
>freedom and to do what
>he wants on those weekends?

I don't consider "doing what you want on weekends" to be a basic human right on par with, say, breathing. Our criminal justice system *does* take certain rights away from those who hurt others. There are countless problems with that system, but it should never violate the basic rights of those incarcerated (unfortunately, as with the death penalty, free expression, health, reproduction, etc. it tends to violate them on a regular basis).

>dont you think consecutive life sentences
>take away from his rights
>to freedom of the outside
>world?

It does. I'm not in support of consecutive life sentences either, but if it's a choice between that and lethal injections...

>why do YOU get to decide
>HIS "BASIC" HUMAN RIGHTS, and
>nobody else?!?
>who do you think you are?!?

I didn't decide them. Nobody did. I'm just telling you how I understand them.

If you want to, you can understand it such that humanity defined human rights (in that it's been amoral to kill another since prehistory), and is perhaps continually redefining it.

But it's there, regardless.


Alek
______________________________________
Can't kill something that's already dead.

>....and he took them away.
>
>.........so why should he have any.

his death, unfortunately, can bring none of them back.

one survivor said it didn't matter to her whether he died or not...she'd made peace with it. and that's the important thing. if you haven't/don't deal with your tragedy & the loss of your loved ones, no murderer's death is going to do that for you.

i'm sorry, but until the death penalty starts resurrecting victims, I'm going to be against it.



~~~SPITFIRE: AUGUST 23, 2001~~~
HipHop. Old school style. In Full Effect. Want Info? Email: carameldom@hotmail.com

http://www.welcome.to/okaypoets (u ain't a real okayplayer if u ain't been here)

"cats pop champagne/over misery and pain/like slaves on the ship/talkin 'bout/who got the flyest chains" ~~Talib Kweli

MAN, YALL KILL ME....... NOW WOULD YALL BE FEELIN THE SAME IF HE'D KILLED INNOCENT PEOPLE IN IRAQ, OR KUWAIT ????? HELL NAW YALL WOULDN'T..... I KNEW SOMEONE WOULD DO THIS, AS MUCH AS THE GOV. PISSED FOLKS OFF I KNEW SOMEONE WOULD STRIKE BACK AT EM.... GUESS WHAT I HEARD, SOME GUY WAS ON A TALK SHOW AND SAID THIS-"IF THE BOMB WAS IN THAT TRUCK THAT BLEW UP THE BUILDING, WHY WASN'T THE TRUCK COMPLETELY DESTROYED... HOW COME THE WINDOWS ON THE BUILDING NEXT TO IT WASN'T SHATTERED.... AND FROM A RELIABLE SOURCE, I HEARD THAT THE WATERGATE PAPERS WERE IN THAT BUILDING....." I DON'T KNOW YALL THERE MAYBE MORE-THAN-MEETS-THE-EYE AND EARS.......

Hello Hello! Skywalker checking in, I know you all have been waiting for me to add my little 2 cents to this particular topic. Well here it is.

Throughout the course of American history our government has felt the need to engage in various conflicts. Conflicts with Japan, conflicts with Germany, conflicts with Iraq, conflicts with Panama, conflicts with Spain, conflicts with Cuba, etc etc etc etc etc etc etc. Well in order to drum up support for these conflicts they need to convince the American public that we have somehow been 'wronged' or 'transgressed' against. So they instigate the bombing of Pearl Harbor, knowing that the attack is coming they do nothing except sit there and let countless soldiers and innocents die so they can join WWII, they blow up their own Maine to declare war on Spain, they blame Vietnam on attacks against American destroyers in the Gulf on Tonkin that never actually happend, and they allow (instruct) Saddam to invade Kuwait so they can kick his sorry ass.

Well for this particular conflict they have chosen the American people as their target. Why would the government instagate a conflict with the American public, simple actually, they don't like us. Our government is run by individuals that don't seem to have any human emotions, human compassion, or any human feelings in general, so that means to me that they're problably not human. But moving on. They blew up the building in order to convince the American public that we are in danger from rogue militia groups in the US so the public will be more than willing to agree with laws that infringe upon these various groups liberties and rights.

If one were to do some research they would find that there weren't any high ranking federal officials that were killed in the building, somehow all they killed were children, secretaries and low level government employees, that's a fact you wont hear about on the news. Another fact that you won't hear on the news is the fact that a fertilizer bomb cannot cause that much damage to a structure of that size, I've read a variety of reports that state that damage of that nature could only be caused by a very complex bomb that country fucks such as McVeigh and others couldn't even comprehend. Peep one: http://www.myplanet.net/jeffhead/dadmisc/okcbomb.htm . I'm sure there are others on the web if you were to look. They demolished the building before they could actually look into what blew it up, almost like they didn't want to know. Another thing to think about is the governments continuous trend to use scapegoats to do their dirty work, sure McVeigh was involved, but he knew there were lots of others, and under various levels you will always find the stinking government. Just ask John Kennedy, Martin Luther King Jr, Malcom X, and Bobby Kennedy. All these men were supposed to have been killed by crazy lone gunmen. Upon further research you will find that the government killed all of them. The government also has a habit of giving bogus conspiracy scenarios to throw off the people who are actually looking for the truth. They tried to throw in the whole Russian/Cuban theory into the the Kennedy killing, they tried to blame the Mob for killing Bobby Kennedy, they tried to blame the Malcom X killing on an ememy Nation of Islam faction, and now they want to throw the whole militia conspiracy scenario into the Ok City bombing. The government is starting to get lazy with their methods, they need to use some new excuses or something. One thing you probably did notice was that McVeigh was caught on the same day of the bombing and that idiot Nichols quickly turned himself in so he could face the death penalty, quite odd if you ask me. McVeigh was also a fomer enlisted soldier in the army, possibly a subject of mind erasing procedures done by the army? McVeigh was also pleading to be killed at first, he denied motion after motion to continue with the trial, he actually wanted to die at first. But as time went on and the fact about the thousands of documents the FBI never gave to his lawyers surfaced he suddenly changed his mind. McVeigh knew that there were others involved and he finally decided that he had had enough and he then requested a new trial. Funny how after he finally woke up to reality his motions for a new trial were quickly denied and he was put to death almost instantly. People sit on death row for dozens of years, if McVeigh would have been a good boy and kept his mouth shut he could of lived for a long time, he didn't, so now he's dead. You saw how fast they killed that idiot Oswald didn't you?

But what do I know?

P.S.

Members of the Warren Commission investigating Kennedy's death appointed by Lyndon Johnson (hated Kennedy).

Chief Justice Earl Warren-33rd degree Mason, hated Kennedy

Allen Dulles-Head of CIA fired by Kennedy, supporter of Nazis, worked on MK Ultra program at CIA, CFR, Bildeberger, hated Kennedy

John J. McCloy-CFR, Ford Foundation, Com300, hated Kennedy

J. Edger Hoover-33rd degree Mason, Director of FBI, hated Kennedy

Gerald Ford-33rd degree Mason, CFR, Bilderberger, hated Kennedy

and while you're at it, cut down on your internet surfing.

People can make conspiracy theories out of anything.

Read a book you incompetent moron. Idiots with no education like yourself are always quick to disregard things you have no knowledge of. I don't even watch television and I'm almost willing to guarantee you don't own a single book and you were raised in a household that didn't either. Your ignorrance is a by-product of an agenda to keep you completely in the dark in matters of importance. Obviously they succeeded.


“One who has not studied the facts has no place in a discussion.” Mao Zedong

I tried to send you message ish, but maybe you didn't get it

um.. I just wanted to know if you have read the biggest secret

because you mentioned the Annunki(spelled wrong).

I put a message in your Inbox, I know about it, haven't read it yet.

do you REALLY think McVeigh was alone on this? It doesn't make sense that one--even two--men could pull something like this off.

the truth will come out about 20 years from now...

u can take it w/ a grain of salt if u like, but mr. skywalker is probably on to something.



~~~SPITFIRE: AUGUST 23, 2001~~~
HipHop. Old school style. In Full Effect. Want Info? Email: carameldom@hotmail.com

http://www.welcome.to/okaypoets (u ain't a real okayplayer if u ain't been here)

"cats pop champagne/over misery and pain/like slaves on the ship/talkin 'bout/who got the flyest chains" ~~Talib Kweli

Yesss, finally a glimmer of light amongst the darkness. It appears to me that society is in a state of darkness because they're scared the light might blind them. So they choose to keep on the blinders because they're terrified of reality. If these people knew what I know they'd be crying themselves to sleep at night, every night.

but whatEVER it is, is BOUND to end up in an Uta sig SOONER, OR later

>>But what do I know?


What is the significance of the recurrence of membership as a 33rd degree Mason here?


>>P.S.
>
>Members of the Warren Commission investigating
>Kennedy's death appointed by Lyndon
>Johnson (hated Kennedy).
>
>Chief Justice Earl Warren-33rd degree Mason,
>hated Kennedy
>
>Allen Dulles-Head of CIA fired by
>Kennedy, supporter of Nazis, worked
>on MK Ultra program at
>CIA, CFR, Bildeberger, hated Kennedy
>
>
>John J. McCloy-CFR, Ford Foundation, Com300,
>hated Kennedy
>
>J. Edger Hoover-33rd degree Mason, Director
>of FBI, hated Kennedy
>
>Gerald Ford-33rd degree Mason, CFR, Bilderberger,
>hated Kennedy


"Don't Hate the PLAYA Boy...hate the GAME," Granddad Freeman of the Boondocks(7-11-99)

*Twenty-three percent of women are "autoerotic singles" — they prefer to achieve sexual satisfaction alone(source-bet.com)

*If U have won a Grammy, one of two things are at play: 1. Your shit is TIGHT
2. U are white
-(Me)

"'Cuz U answer the phone 'peace' that means U not a freak?"-The Questions(c) Common

The Masons hate Catholics, cause in like 1300 AD the Catholic church outlawed the Templars and burnt their leader at the stake. The remaining Templars joined in with the Masons, they've hated Catholics ever since. Kennedy was a Catholic, the first and only Catholic president in history. The Catholic church knew the Templars had evidence that could destroy their religion, and since religion was (and still is) such a big business back then they couldn't have that, plus the Templars don't pray to Jesus, God, Allah or anything of that nature. They know better. The Catholic church called them heretics and pagans and of course that means that they could hunt them down and kill them off. The Catholic church has a habit of calling their enemies heretics and pagans. The Church killed off a variety of groups back in those days. The Templars were just one of many.

For whatever reason, the victims of the Oklahoma City bombing watching the televised execution thought that they would get "closure" (just what does that mean anyway?) from watching the man who killed their love ones be put to death.

I don't think many of them were prepared when he looked directly into the camera, looked directly at them, showing no remose whatsoever. And I myself was actually disturbed when I read the poem he choose as his last words . . .

http://www.torontostar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=992253794687&call_page=TS_News&call_pageid=968332188492&call_pagepath=News/News

Here is the poem Timothy McVeigh issued before his execution instead of making an oral statement.

The 1875 Invictus, by William Ernest Henley, a 19th-century British editor and poet, is an ode to strength in the face of suffering. Invictus is a Latin word that means undefeated.

Invictus
Out of the night that covers me,
Black as the Pit from pole to pole,
I thank whatever gods may be
For my unconquerable soul.


In the fell clutch of circumstance
I have not winced nor cried aloud.
Under the bludgeonings of chance
My head is bloody, but unbowed.


Beyond this place of wrath and tears
Looms but the Horror of the shade,
And yet the menace of the years
Finds, and shall find, me unafraid.


It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishments the scroll,
I am the master of my fate:
I am the captain of my soul

He believed he was right in his actions to his death bed.

What good did this whole event due then? Those victims are going to have to take the image of the murderer staring into them without any remose to their own graves.

There were calls from a few that he should have suffered more. Something I find absolutely repulsive, should the state get into the torture business? Should we put murderers in the Iron Maiden? Sit them on pikes? Actually I think that the most fitting death would have been a crucifixtion for McVeigh, because after all, by killing him without him showing remose, he has become a matyr. "Justice will then be served" Really? Vengance and the blood lust of a nation have nothing to do with it? Did the death of McVeigh bring back loved ones? Was that memory erased from the city's memories? No. All that occured was that the government, and therefor, the people, lowered themselves to McVeigh's level.

"We didn't suffer at all. The man just went to sleep, or as I said, the monster did. I think they should have done the same thing to him as he did in Oklahoma."

Yes, and Jeffery Domer should have been eaten, and Bernardo should be raped by the state and cut into little pieces. Yet, somehow, in the end we are better than he is, right?

An eye for an eye? (like KRS ONE said, that's Jewish theology talking, not Christian) since when does one passage in the bible overide one of the ten commandments?

To clarify a few things: I have absolutely no remorse for McVeigh, and all the sickness I feel around his death does not come from any sort of sympathy for him. Rather I feel sick that people are condoning state-sponsored murder, sinking down to his level, in the interests of vengance, not justice. You cannot telll me that now justice has been served and everything is alright. People were blood hungry, they wanted him dead, they wanted vengance, that is what this is all about.

It would have cost less money to leave him to rot in prison (the legal and court expenses from the various appeals far outweigh the cost of feeding and clothing him).

It will not deter a repeat attack: Murderers, at the time of commiting the crime, do not believe they will be caught and therefore not believe they will have to face the death penalty OR they WANT to die, as was the case in the Japan school stabings.

Damn, I could go on, but I think I'll stop here . . .

Just thought I'd throw that in there . . .

Giving you true Calcio since 1986

Marinera? Ain't that a bitch?

By supporting the death penalty, people are supporting their own wrongful conviction and execution. Think about it. We know that no justice system is perfect. We know that there have been cases in the past where there was questionable evidence that lead to a guilty verdict (the black man in Texas most recently, can't remember his name, wasn't publcized much in Canada). We know that while you are alive you can more actively campaign for your freedom, when you're dead, you're done, and most of the support (like that we see for Mumia) will dry up.

Basically, by supporting the death penalty you have to accept the fact that there is a possibility, a remote one, but still: that you or somoeone close to you will simply be in the wrong place at the wrong time, and that you may die for it.

If Canada had the death penalty two innocent men would be dead: David Milgaard and Guy-Paul Morain. These were two men who were victims of being in the wrong place, a police department with no leads and a furious public and media on their backs, desperate to find a murderer. And please don't discount this point because it's the "Canadian legal system," please, it is just as good as any we have, all are falable.

I think that is easily the most horrible thing about this. Somewhere along the line, in order to satisfy a national bloodlust, innocent human beings have been put to death.

Anyone who believes that all those convicted and that have died from executions since they began are guilty, are being rather naive . . .

Just thought I'd throw that in there . . .

Giving you true Calcio since 1986

Marinera? Ain't that a bitch?

and what were the circumstances of their case?

>>If Canada had the death penalty
>two innocent men would be
>dead: David Milgaard and Guy-Paul
>Morain. These were two men
>who were victims of
>being in the wrong place,
>a police department with no
>leads and a furious public
>and media on their backs,
>desperate to find a murderer.



"Don't Hate the PLAYA Boy...hate the GAME," Granddad Freeman of the Boondocks(7-11-99)

*Twenty-three percent of women are "autoerotic singles" — they prefer to achieve sexual satisfaction alone(source-bet.com)

*If U have won a Grammy, one of two things are at play: 1. Your shit is TIGHT
2. U are white
-(Me)

"'Cuz U answer the phone 'peace' that means U not a freak?"-The Questions(c) Common

Taken from: http://www.truthinjustice.org/canadian_tragedy.html

Anne Bayin
CBC NEWS ONLINE

Larry Fisher, Guilty of Murder. Thank Joyce, I say. Thank Joyce.

Finally, Joyce Milgaard's got her man. It is she who deserves to take the bow here. Not the Mounties, not the Saskatchewan justice system, certainly not the Saskatoon police, whose bungled investigation into one of the most brutal murders in the city's history put her 16-year-old hippie son in jail for the best years of his life. It is Joyce Milgaard, mother of David -who, like many teenagers, was no angel, but, according to his mom, no killer either - that deserves the credit for this final verdict. If not for her unswerving belief in David's innocence, her relentless pursuit of the truth, the painstaking detective work done by her and her legal team, I very much doubt Larry Fisher would have been brought to trial, let alone convicted of the 1969 murder of nursing assistant, Gail Miller.

Justice has been embarrassingly slow in this case, but it has been done. It only took 30 years. Replayed television news clips of the Miller crime scene flicker in black and white. That long ago. If only those who were not guilty could breathe a huge collective sigh of relief and finally be free to get on with their lives. If only it were that simple.

This story has resonated with me for years. For one thing, it occurred too close to home for comfort. I grew up on the Prairies, in North Battleford, the town where Larry Fisher's mother lives, where my mother lives today, where Fisher's last known victim lives. It was in my hometown that he viciously raped and nearly killed a 56-year-old woman in 1980, while out on parole visiting his mother.

Saskatoon, where the Miller murder was committed, lies an hour and a half away, sometimes less, depending on the traffic. To us kids growing up, it was "the city", a place with more sophisticated shops and cafes and people. It was a beautiful, benign university town. Murder was the last thing on its mind.

Back in 1969, I had friends who were young nurses, and a sister who had recently attended classes at the University of Saskatoon. I myself had walked in the back alleys of the city, alone and with friends, laneways identical to the one where Miller's body was discovered face-down in a snowbank, stabbed and slashed more than two dozen times. On the morning of January 31st, she had been on her way to the bus and her dream job in the pediatric ward of City Hospital.

Six degrees of separation. In 1992, I spent time with the Milgaards when I was assigned to write a story on Joyce for a national magazine. Then again, this year, David and Joyce Milgaard were guests on a show I produced on wrongful conviction, for the television program Pamela Wallin. It was one of the riskiest, most intense and ultimately rewarding shows of our season. David's bad days outweighed the good. We wondered if he, his wife, Marnie, and his psychiatrist, who had agreed to come along, would even arrive on that plane from Vancouver (they did); we wondered whether David would be in "good enough shape" emotionally to go on the air (he was, barely); we felt the most important thing was that David, if he were at all able, be allowed to speak for himself. For too many years Milgaard had been spoken about, his wishes interpreted by third parties. It was time to hear from the man.

The story resonates for other reasons. It contains our worst fears: being falsely accused and convicted of a crime we didn't commit, and being the victim of a random act of violence. I don't know with whom I identified more, the girl or the boy. I have often thought of the outrage, the betrayal and the utter helplessness David Milgaard must have felt during his time in jail. The physical and sexual assaults he suffered. No one to listen. His rage had nowhere to turn but inward, resulting in several suicide attempts and an escape that ended badly: the Toronto police shot him in the back. The fact that David Milgaard is alive today is astonishing.

I'm riveted by the statistics: 42 below. That's how cold it was the morning Gail Miller set off to work. I think of the sheer bitterness of the weather, the kind that numbs you instantly, frosts up your scarf, and stings your forehead. Who commits such a savage crime in the early morning, in bone-chilling winter and in the snow? Gail Miller didn't stand a chance. Women who walk alone instinctively raise their antenna at night, and on warm summer evenings.

One in 950,000,000,000,000. According to an RCMP biologist, that's the probability the human sperm cells found on Gail Miller's clothing did not belong to Larry Fisher. And what, I wonder, were the probabilities at play that day in 1969, when David Milgaard and his sorry band of friends dropped over to Albert (Shorty) Cadrain's house for a visit? The same precise house where the trail of belongings from Miller's body would lead: a knife handle, a boot, a wallet. The same house where Larry Fisher lived, with his wife, in the basement? Fisher, who later confessed to three other brutal rapes, conducted in his signature style - side grab attack, hand clamped over the mouth, knife at the throat- around the time of the Miller murder. Were the chances of Milgaard being in the wrong place at the wrong time that day as high as that DNA statistic for Fisher?

$10,000,000. That's the amount of the settlement the Milgaards were awarded, along with a long-awaited apology from the government of Saskatchewan. It may be the highest cash settlement of its kind in our country's history, but it hasn't made David Milgaard a free man. He still has nightmares.

23 years. The number of years David Milgaard spent in jail; the number of years to which the rest of the Milgaard family, Lorne, Susan, Maureen and Chris were sentenced to sacrifice any semblance of normal family life. The kids grew up with a brother who was a convicted sex murderer. Their mother was gathering her forces to embark on her heroic, single-minded and sometimes irritating crusade, not only to free their brother, but also to reform the whole prison system.

30 years. The number of years Gail Miller's family has had to wait for closure. They are the least talked about victims here. When I met David Milgaard again last year, I was struck by how young he appeared, how handsome he was in person, although he seemed unaware of his looks. With his new haircut, wearing glasses, when he wasn't looking scared, there was a striking resemblance to Warren Beatty. More recently, I watched him, alongside his mother, she in a gown, he in a tuxedo, on stage at the Gemini Awards. They were celebrating "Milgaard" the made-for-TV movie based on his life. The film took six prizes, including the coveted Best TV Movie and Best Direction awards. Joyce looked radiant; David looked uncomfortable, and fidgety, as if he didn't quite know where he fit in. How could he? It will probably take the rest of his life to answer that question. This is a man, after all, who had to learn how to bank in his mid-forties. Who hardly saw a sunset for twenty years. Who went from being Prisoner #289699 to being famous.

So, for David Milgaard, what is real, and what is absurd? Is he someone who enjoys a Mediterranean cruise, like the one he took recently? Is he happiest when he's building a garage, planting a garden, or hanging out with friends? He has self-published a chapbook called "The Rabbit's Paw (for Bandit's Blues)." Does writing poetry give him satisfaction? Will he ever, really, feel free? David Milgaard is a man who needs to escape to the woods just to breathe sometimes.

Shortly after David was first sent to prison, in September 1970, Larry Fisher was caught while fleeing from an attack on a woman in Fort Garry, a Winnipeg suburb. Under interrogation, he confessed to a string of brutal sex attacks in Saskatoon, some of which had occurred in Miller's neighbourhood and during the same time frame as her murder. You'd expect a light switch would have gone on somewhere in the province, but it didn't. For inexplicable reasons, Fisher's case was handled quietly in Regina, not Saskatoon, away from the scene of most of his crimes. You'd think the capture of a serial rapist would make major headlines, in order that the public be informed and better able to sleep at night. But the Saskatoon media were never alerted and investigators familiar with both cases failed to make the link. It wasn't until 1990 that the indomitable Joyce Milgaard made the critical connection.

I remember her telling me a story on the way to visit David in prison, one wintry afternoon in 1992. It is a 29-kilometre drive from Winnipeg, north, along Highway 7. We came over a rise and saw Stony Mountain penitentiary in the distance. It's a fortress, sitting out there on the prairie. Joyce told me that David's sister Maureen used to look at it and think she was going to castles. "She saw beyond the gun turrets to beauty," said Joyce, smiling.

47. The age David is now.
50. The age Larry Fisher is now.
51. The age Gail Miller would be now, had she lived.


Just thought I'd throw that in there . . .

Giving you true Calcio since 1986

Marinera? Ain't that a bitch?

Taken from: http://www.razberry.com/raz/laframboise/full_texts/morin/gpmorin.htm

In July 1992, a 32-year-old Canadian man named Guy Paul Morin was convicted of murder and sentenced to prison with no chance of parole for 25 years. At his first trial, six years earlier, he had been acquitted. But Canadian law does not recognize the principle of double jeopardy.

The second trial dragged on for nine months. During that time, the jury heard that police had planted evidence, that the crime lab had lost hundreds of slides, that the pathologist had missed significant injuries when he conducted the autopsy, and that the prosecution had failed to disclose crucial information to the defence. Despite these irregularities, the jury convicted Morin anyway.

Morin was shipped off to prison where he feared for his life. Journalist Kirk Makin finished writing a book on the case titled Redrum the Innocent, but it wasn't published until late November. The fifth estate public affairs program aired its television coverage around the same time.


In the interim, as a weekly freelance columnist for The Toronto Star, I helped keep Morin's case in the public eye. I filed column after column, demonstrating how the justice system had failed. In January 1995, Morin was exonerated via DNA testing. In mid 1996, an inquiry was struck to investigate how matters could go so badly wrong.

http://www.razberry.com/raz/laframboise/full_texts/morin/morin15.htm

Four weeks from today will be Guy Paul Morin's first anniversary as a free man.

Last Jan. 23., after having hounded him for a decade, our criminal justice system admitted it had made a mistake. It acquitted him of first degree murder in the death of his 9-year-old neighbor, Christine Jessop, and apologized for damaging his life and the lives of his family.

Morin still hasn't received any financial compensation for those 10 lost years, nor has an inquiry into how matters could have gone so wrong commenced yet. But he is a patient man and, after having had lunch with him recently, I'm pleased to report he's also a well-adjusted one.

For the past nine months, Morin has been happily married. In a manner of speaking, The Star played matchmaker. A young woman named Allison Ferguson joined the Justice for Guy Paul Morin committee after reading some of my columns following his wrongful conviction in 1992. They got to know one another when he was released on bail pending his appeal.

Last March, the couple boarded a ship out of Fort Lauderdale for a week-long Caribbean cruise. Away from the media attention, on a mountain top overlooking the ocean, they exchanged vows in what he describes as "the perfect wedding" - warm, sunny and private.

The irony of having wed a woman who works for the Metro Toronto Police department is something Morin himself jokes about, while declaring that "married life is good," and that he doesn't think he could be happier in his relationship.

Now 36, this past year has been the first in a decade in which he hasn't been compelled to reside with his parents. Recently, the couple became the proud owners of a puppy.

Having gained a few pounds, Morin looks robustly healthy. He's kept busily self-employed, performing maintenance on cars and boats, and undertaking small building projects. In an agreeable turn of the tables, many of the lawyers he met over the years are currently his clients.

He says a day rarely goes by in which he isn't recognized by members of the public. "They stop and talk to me. They usually wish me the best," he says. Others have harsh words for the justice system. "They say, 'It's just disgusting what happened to you. I'm appalled to know, as a Canadian citizen, that this could happen.'"

On another short trip to Las Vegas (this past year was also the first in a decade in which Morin was permitted to leave the province), people in a restaurant wished him well. They were fellow tourists from Winnipeg.

Morin spent a total of 18 months behind bars - in four different jails and two prisons. He was subjected to the indignity of innumerable strip searches and had his life threatened by other inmates. In his dreams, he sometimes finds himself back in custody, in a cold, damp cell fearing for his safety.

"There's something about the institution that one just doesn't forget," he says. "The sounds, the echoes; you hear them in your dreams. Other prisoners screaming out at night, crying. The slamming of doors and the keys in the guards' pockets. The rats squealing."

But he observes that other people have suffered worse than he has - in war, for example - and so tries not to dwell on the past. When I asked him what advice he'd give to fellow wrongly accused persons he replied, "Try to get on with life as best as you can. Don't get wrapped up in the craziness of it all."

Morin doesn't expect the stigma of being an alleged child rapist and murderer ever to fade completely. Nor is he convinced that the individual police officers and crown attorneys who pursued him so relentlessly have learned much from their errors. But then he shrugs, "I believe what goes around, comes around," he replies.

As for what he might be doing a decade from now, Morin says he developed the habit of not thinking too much about the future - since his remained so uncertain for so long - and is finding the pattern a hard one to break.

I met Morin for the first time three years ago, when I visited him in Kingston Penitentiary a few days before Christmas. His story, as I've watched it unfold, has been alarming, infuriating and disheartening.

But it has also been inspiring. In the face of obstinacy and narrow-mindedness, against what often seemed like formidable odds, justice has prevailed. A great wrong has been set right. An innocent man is now free.

For me, the Guy Paul Morin story is an appropriate one for these holidays - because it demonstrates that while we sometimes lose our way, as a community we're also capable of redeeming ourselves.


http://www.razberry.com/raz/laframboise/full_texts/morin/morin1.htm

Suppose you're going about your business one day, when suddenly the police arrive, arrest you, and charge you with murder.

Suppose you're then refused bail and spend the next mine months in jail. After a five week trial, you are acquitted by a jury and think your nightmare is over.

But it isn't. Two-and-a-half years later, the Supreme Court rules that the judge who heard your case erred while giving instructions to the jury. In a rare move, it orders a retrial.

Suppose your second trial reveals:

that the Ontario government's Centre of Forensic Science has lost over 200 slides of hair and fibre samples connected to your case;
that a cigarette butt submitted as evidence at your first trial was planted by police. This is formally admitted by the Crown, which concedes that the one actually retrieved from the murder scene can't be located;
that five months after the victim's body was discovered and police searched the area, the victim's family found more of her bones at the site;
that the province's chief pathologist failed to detect a number of significant injuries when he performed the autopsy. These were only discovered during a second autopsy - which was made necessary largely because proper records weren't kept the first time;
that a hair, similar to your own, which was found on the victim also matches samples taken from two other people. But these samples weren't even examined by the lab until long after your first trial was over;
that a button discovered near the body is now missing;
that crucial wiretap tapes have been erased by police;
that the senior officer responsible for collecting and maintaining the physical evidence was charged with perjury and obstructing justice in connection to your first trial. However, the charges were stayed due to his poor health.

Suppose it's your life hanging in the balance. And that, despite all of these appalling irregularities, the second jury finds you guilty.

This is what has happened to Guy Paul Morin, who was convicted last week of murdering his 9-year-old next door neighbor, Christine Jessop, in 1984.

I know it's unwise to second-guess a jury, to criticize from afar a decision that followed a nine-month trial, eight days of deliberation, and was doubtless made in good conscience by decent, honest people. But something feels terribly wrong here.

This case has revealed shameful inadequacies in the day-to-day operation of our criminal justice system. Many of the police and associated personnel have come out looking downright incompetent. They seem not to be very concerned about the fact that theirs isn't just any job. That when they get careless, the innocent may be convicted and murderers may go free.

To be fair, the judge specifically told jurors that it wasn't their responsibility to establish guidelines for criminal investigations. Their role was simply to decide Morin's guilt or innocence.

But now that the jury has made its decision, some hard questions remain:

How and why has so much evidence disappeared?
If police missed a number of the victim's bones at the murder scene, what else did they miss?
Why did the lab not examine all the samples it received?
Since the criminal charges against the police officer haven't been pursued, how do we know the extent to which the evidence has been tampered with? How do we know, for example, that evidence which might have cleared Morin was not disregarded or even deliberately destroyed?
And, most important, can a person be said to have received a fair trial under these circumstances?

As long as these issues remain outstanding, we should all pray that we're never accused of having committed a serious crime in this country

http://www.razberry.com/raz/laframboise/full_texts/morin/morin6.htm

I've never met Guy Paul Morin. Nor do I know his family. Rather, I became interested in his case the way most people have: through the news media.

As Morin's trial unfolded during the first half of this year, I read about the hundreds of pieces of evidence that have been lost, overlooked or faked. About how the police neglected to tape crucial interviews and deliberately erased important wiretap recordings. About how a key investigator kept two sets of notes on the case - with a different version of events in each.

As the trial wore on, I became increasingly alarmed. How was it possible, in view of all this, to be sure of anything? How could we even consider convicting Morin when there were such grave doubts about the quality of the evidence against him?

When I heard that the jury had found him guilty anyway, my heart sank. It was the same feeling I'd experienced a few months previous when the Rodney King jury had absolved four police officers of wrongdoing - even though their brutal assault of an unarmed man had been caught on videotape.

Every bone in my body, every instinct, told me that this conviction fell far short of what I understood by the word "justice." That if a jury was willing to consign someone to life imprisonment when it knew full well the authorities had been, at the very least, dreadfully sloppy in their handling of the case, then none of us were safe. That I - or someone I loved - could also be convicted of a serious crime on the flimsiest of evidence.

In the months following the verdict, I began researching the case. I read trial transcripts and reference works. I interviewed forensic experts and prominent lawyers. I began to discover that the news reports had contained only the tip of the iceberg. That there seemed to be no end to the incompetence and irregularities, to the myopia and outright bias on the part of some of the officials involved.

Warning bells began ringing in my brain. I began to wonder whether the Morin case was so unusual after all.

While I'd like to believe the vast majority of people are dealt with fairly by our judicial system, I began to wonder what we'd find if more cases received the kind of scrutiny Morin's has.

It's a frightening notion. And, unfortunately, I've seen little to assuage my fears.

Indeed, one gets the sense that none of these people - the police who failed to properly investigate other suspects in the murder, the analysts from the Centre of Forensic Sciences whose findings were seriously called into question, the prosecution which didn't disclose significant information to the defence until being forced to do so - have learned anything from this.

And, if they aren't prepared to acknowledge that mistakes have been made, it follows that they won't be doing much to avoid repeating them in future.

Surely the victims of criminal acts deserve better than this. Accused persons deserve better than this. And the families of both these groups of people deserve better.

It is, therefore, our responsibility as citizens of this province to start making some noise. If we want to have faith in our justice system, it's up to us to make it clear that we expect concrete action to be taken so the kinds of things which occurred in the Morin case will never happen again.



Just thought I'd throw that in there . . .

Giving you true Calcio since 1986

Marinera? Ain't that a bitch?

He stared into the camera which was recording him
to I believe..show his viewers he was not afraid
and he wanted them to see his face which was probably
a success because I bet you it's engraved into their minds..

the audience praised murder.

Let us not forget that Timothy Mc Veigh was a White Supremacist, sprung forth from an affiliation with several Hate Groups who espouse White Supremacist views(not like Hate Groups are the only ones, but anyway...) The media has chosen to focus on the fact that the bombing was vengeance for the government raid on the Branch Davidians in Waco. I think it important to remember from whence he came w/ this belief that the government must be attacked. And who has stated or revealed how many people of color were in that building, and included in the 168 who died

>>Invictus is a
>Latin word that means undefeated.
>
>
>Invictus
>Out of the night that covers
>me,
>Black as the Pit from pole
>to pole,
>I thank whatever gods may be
>
>For my unconquerable soul.
>
>
>In the fell clutch of circumstance
>
>I have not winced nor cried
>aloud.
>Under the bludgeonings of chance
>My head is bloody, but unbowed.
>
>
>
>Beyond this place of wrath and
>tears
>Looms but the Horror of the
>shade,
>And yet the menace of the
>years
>Finds, and shall find, me unafraid.
>
>
>
>It matters not how strait the
>gate,
>How charged with punishments the scroll,
>
>I am the master of my
>fate:
>I am the captain of my
>soul
>
>He believed he was right in
>his actions to his death
>bed.
>
>What good did this whole event
>due then? Those victims are
>going to have to take
>the image of the murderer
>staring into them without any
>remose to their own graves.
>
>
>There were calls from a few
>that he should have suffered
>more. Something I find absolutely
>repulsive, should the state get
>into the torture business? Should
>we put murderers in the

>>>To clarify a few things: I
>have absolutely no remorse for
>McVeigh, and all the sickness
>I feel around his death
>does not come from any
>sort of sympathy for him.
>Rather I feel sick that
>people are condoning state-sponsored murder,
>sinking down to his level,
>in the interests of vengance,
>not justice. You cannot telll
>me that now justice has
>been served and everything is
>alright. People were blood hungry,
>they wanted him dead, they
>wanted vengance, that is what
>this is all about.

"Don't Hate the PLAYA Boy...hate the GAME," Granddad Freeman of the Boondocks(7-11-99)

*Twenty-three percent of women are "autoerotic singles" — they prefer to achieve sexual satisfaction alone(source-bet.com)

*If U have won a Grammy, one of two things are at play: 1. Your shit is TIGHT
2. U are white
-(Me)

"'Cuz U answer the phone 'peace' that means U not a freak?"-The Questions(c) Common

but that still doesn't change my view that he shouldn't have died. In fact it makes it stronger. So by murdering McVeigh, we are sinking to his level, which is a racist white supremacist coward mass murderer? I for one will never sink to that level just to get hollow vengance and satisfy some primal blood-lust.

Just thought I'd throw that in there . . .

Giving you true Calcio since 1986

Marinera? Ain't that a bitch?

i don't know what made me more ill...

...the fact that a human life was taken...like many have said who are we to judge and take the lives of other humans when we are only human ourselves...let higher powers (which ever u have a belief in) deal with people such as mcveigh...no human nor group of humans (govt) should have this power...we all know many mistakes are made in our justice system...besides the fact this guy seemed to want to die...why should he 'get off so easy' or 'get his way'...let him sit there and deal with the consequences of what he did...who knows one day he might have even felt remourse for what he did...but that is not even the point...killing this man did not bring back any of the people who died in that building...

OR

...the fact that every channel was so saturated with all the morbid details of his impending death...in the mornings my family ususally watches those silly morning shows just while everyone is getting ready...u expect to see mindless entertainment (since i for one am hardly even awake during the morning)...u know emeril or some other cooking segment...and silly concerts that u don't even care about...but to wake up and be bombarded with death death death...it was sickening...i had to go to a back room to retreat...it made my head spin...



SOME OTHER POINTS
...what about the other(s) who were involved?? what is it about this man that has the media/govt's attention and vengence so focused on him?? i only know of one other guy in prison for this bombing beside mcveigh and he's mentioned so few times i can never even remember his name...so can anyone explain why mcveigh is getting so much attention?? it's kind of fitting that i'm rereading orwell's 1984 right now...mcveigh seems to equal goldstein and ingsoc's daily two minutes of hate...but the difference between the book and reality...most of our society feels they have chosen to feel this way about mcveigh, when the constant media attention most likely made up their minds for them...in the book the characters are either obviously and unknowingly brainwashed, with the exception of a few main characters...anyhow...i'm getting too far off track...

...oh ish...i had another point but i'm so tired and i got so lost in my other points i believe i forgot it...anyhow...that's my two cents...


Mic1L@aol.com

And I actually READ it for English class in 1984 too!@ How cool is THAT????


>> it's kind
>of fitting that i'm rereading
>orwell's 1984 right now...mcveigh seems
>to equal goldstein and ingsoc's
>daily two minutes of hate...but
>the difference between the book
>and reality...most of our society
>feels they have chosen to
>feel this way about mcveigh,
>when the constant media attention
>most likely made up their
>minds for them...in the book
>the characters are either obviously
>and unknowingly brainwashed, with the
>exception of a few main
>characters




"Don't Hate the PLAYA Boy...hate the GAME," Granddad Freeman of the Boondocks(7-11-99)

*Twenty-three percent of women are "autoerotic singles" — they prefer to achieve sexual satisfaction alone(source-bet.com)

*If U have won a Grammy, one of two things are at play: 1. Your shit is TIGHT
2. U are white
-(Me)

"'Cuz U answer the phone 'peace' that means U not a freak?"-The Questions(c) Common

:):):);)

And PROUD of it, thank you very much!!! :*




> :):):);)


"Don't Hate the PLAYA Boy...hate the GAME," Granddad Freeman of the Boondocks(7-11-99)

*Twenty-three percent of women are "autoerotic singles" — they prefer to achieve sexual satisfaction alone(source-bet.com)

*If U have won a Grammy, one of two things are at play: 1. Your shit is TIGHT
2. U are white
-(Me)

"'Cuz U answer the phone 'peace' that means U not a freak?"-The Questions(c) Common

In 1984 I was reading X-Men comics and Ramona books

>In 1984 I was reading X-Men
>comics and Ramona books


who is Prophet Muhammad -salla Allahu 'alaihi wa sallam (peace be upon him)? click here to read his biography:
http://www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/Books/SM_tsn/

Narrated Aisha (Prophet Muhammad's wife):
The Prophet used to offer prayer at night (for such a long time) that his feet used to crack. I said, "O Allah's Apostle! Why do you do it since Allah has forgiven you your faults of the past and those to follow?" He said, "Shouldn't I love to be a thankful slave (of Allah)?' When he became old, he prayed while sitting, but if he wanted to perform a bowing, he wound get up, recite (some other verses) and then perform the bowing.

subhaanakallahumma (Glory be to you, Oh Allah), wabihamdika (and I praise You). ashhadu anla ilaha illa anta (I bear witness that none has the right to be worshipped except You). astaghfiruka (I seek Your forgiveness), wa attuubu ilaika (and I turn to You in Repentance).

yeah i read it for an english class when i was in school...but i really don't remember it at all...and i just had an urge to reread it...so it's like reading it for the first time...lol...but yes i agree it's a great book...i actually turned on the tv the other night and it just so happened to be on tv, the movie...i didn't even know there was a movie...it was made in 1984...thought that was funny...but it was interesting to see how they interpreted it...i only watched it for like 5 minutes though cause i didn't want to get ahead of where i am in the book...lol

Mic1L@aol.com

Very surreal. What is the last name of the actor who portrayed the protagonist in that film?


"Don't Hate the PLAYA Boy...hate the GAME," Granddad Freeman of the Boondocks(7-11-99)

*Twenty-three percent of women are "autoerotic singles" — they prefer to achieve sexual satisfaction alone(source-bet.com)

*If U have won a Grammy, one of two things are at play: 1. Your shit is TIGHT
2. U are white
-(Me)

"'Cuz U answer the phone 'peace' that means U not a freak?"-The Questions(c) Common

John Hurt...i like what i saw of the movie...i'm going to rent it after i finish the book this weekend...but from what i saw it seemed i wouldn't have understood what was going on without reading the book first


Mic1L@aol.com

I have yet to see an execution that was not deserved, based on the crime.

Anytime you are found guilty of a crime, you have been relieved of the rights that average law abiding citizens have. Plain and simple. And you must suffer the consequences.

To hell with all this "sympathy" crap. McVeigh should have been fried in Ole Sparky, rather than simply shot up with drugs. In my opinion, he got off easy.

a Republican?

>>To hell with all this "sympathy"
>crap. McVeigh should have
>been fried in Ole Sparky,
>rather than simply shot up
>with drugs. In my
>opinion, he got off easy.
>


"Don't Hate the PLAYA Boy...hate the GAME," Granddad Freeman of the Boondocks(7-11-99)

*Twenty-three percent of women are "autoerotic singles" — they prefer to achieve sexual satisfaction alone(source-bet.com)

*If U have won a Grammy, one of two things are at play: 1. Your shit is TIGHT
2. U are white
-(Me)

"'Cuz U answer the phone 'peace' that means U not a freak?"-The Questions(c) Common

...with Greenpeace on the Rainbow Warrior. But he uses a satellite link to send articles to _The Nation_ and plan actions at Niketown.

Alek

______________________________________
Can't kill something that's already dead.

Yeah, I said it.

THAT explains ALOT. Siiiiigh.


"Don't Hate the PLAYA Boy...hate the GAME," Granddad Freeman of the Boondocks(7-11-99)

*Twenty-three percent of women are "autoerotic singles" — they prefer to achieve sexual satisfaction alone(source-bet.com)

*If U have won a Grammy, one of two things are at play: 1. Your shit is TIGHT
2. U are white
-(Me)

"'Cuz U answer the phone 'peace' that means U not a freak?"-The Questions(c) Common

I'm really sick of people who are pro-death penalty saying that everyone who was opposesed to McVeigh's execution is sympathetic for him. Put simply: Fuck y'all. How DARE you all assume that we have a soft spot for this terrible human being.

It ain't about being soft. I believe that I am a better person than McVeigh, I believe that I am more human, I believe that I'm bigger than he is and I can rise above that shit. I don't need to murder him because there's no way in hell that I'm gonna sink down to his level. Cause if I do, than I'm no worse than he is . . .

Just thought I'd throw that in there . . .

Giving you true Calcio since 1986

Marinera? Ain't that a bitch?

Lets get back to issue. Everyone here has a good point. But I think we are missing the big pic.....Is The "Death Penalty" about Justice or Vengeance? If these folks say they can't go on with their lives until this man is dead, then this vengeance not justice. Their is no Justice in murder. It's these little play on words that have us blinded to the truth! I must admit that I'm some what of a hypocrite. Cause when it comes to kids being abused my first thought is to kill'em!!! But I can't blame my thoughts on "Justice". They are just as bad as the person who commited the crime. Murder is murder any way you slice it. PEEP THIS: We are the only "democracy" in the world that has a "Death Penalty"...now that is deep!

Everyone the world over now knows the name Timothy McVeigh . . .

But no one knows even one name of the hundred plus victims of the bombing.

Just thought I'd throw that in there . . .

Giving you true Calcio since 1986

Marinera? Ain't that a bitch?

Unfortunate, but true.

And now we have radio stations putting up billboards of McVeigh getting a lethal injection from Satan as a "joke"...

Why can't people see that all this is exactly what McVeigh wanted. He wanted to die. He wanted the publicity.

And we just got played.

Sad.

~~~SPITFIRE: AUGUST 23, 2001~~~
HipHop. Old school style. In Full Effect. Want Info? Email: carameldom@hotmail.com

http://www.welcome.to/okaypoets (u ain't a real okayplayer if u ain't been here)

"cats pop champagne/over misery and pain/like slaves on the ship/talkin 'bout/who got the flyest chains" ~~Talib Kweli

if someone went out and killed 100 people and was kept locked up, he had a chance at freedom and was released in YOUR neighborhood where you and YOUR CHILDREN take shelter in a FED building during the day for work and daycare... would you be sooooo calm and collected as to STILL suggest that the bomber should do community service(which MOST times means working for a govt. regulated/run organization)rather than be put to death and if he managed to STRIKE AGAIN or control a group who became fanatics of his who were directed to BLOW A BUILDING UP...would you be so calm as to suggest that he live? and if he continued this OVER and OVER and OVER again....is it STILL HIS right to live?

this is ALL hypothetical and i have veered away from my initial posts just to imagine that Tim WAS GUILTY of the bombings since that is how MOST of the posters seem to express.

that boy is probably undergoing plastic surgery and getting a new identity. how you gonna bomb the USA and not get the WORST possible punishment? that boy recieved doses of "tranquilizers" ? you dont even know for sure if he was given water or something... things are just fishy and the USA doesn't behave like this when it comes to terrorism, they like to make examples of people. And maybe Tim didn't show remorse because he COuld not feel sorry for something that he did not do. he could have been adequately lacking emotion because he was not connected in the first place.

just my suspicions




~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
"The one whose faith is perfect is afflicted by the whisperer(shaytaan). The thief does not bother entering a ruined house."-(al-Jawahir al-Hisan)

I don't think that anyone is suggesting that we should be releasing mass-murderers like McVeigh back into society.

We'd just rather see him live out the rest of his life behind bars rather than be murdered by the state.

Just thought I'd throw that in there . . .

Giving you true Calcio since 1986

Marinera? Ain't that a bitch?

I've been living in Australia for the past few months, and have been taking a course in criminology, so while I've been isolated from the actual news coverage of the McVeigh execution back home, I have seen how people here have reacted to it. The U.S. as a country looks vengeful and stupid, people from other democracies don't understand how the U.S. can preach all its rhetoric about human rights, e.g. threatening to take away china's most favored nation trade status because of human rights violations on prisoners and such, and yet continue to use the death penalty, which tends to take away people's human rights by killing a fair proportion of innocent people. I don't believe timothy mcveigh deserved a second chance, some crimes are too heinous for that, and the fact that he had no remorse at all shows that he didn't deserve to be in society. But at the same time, the death penalty itself is flawed, and I don't believe it should be used, even for someone as terrible and remorseless as mcveigh. A few years back I didn't have an opinion on the death penalty one way or the other, but then the governer of illinois himself took a stand, and decided that illinois would no longer be a death penalty state, because it was often missapplied to innocent people, especially people who were poor or minorities, becuase they often lacked the means to get a fair trial. Obviously, there are much deeper problems in the U.S. than just the death penalty being applied disproportionately to minorities, for example the way the whole justice system is skewed against poor people and minorities, but doing away with the death penalty is a good start, and a very necessary step. The problem is that high profile cases like mcveigh tend to legitimize the death penalty, because "he killed 168 people and didn't care, he had no remorse", and "it helped the victims' families to get closure". The fact is, I don't think watching him show no remorse and die believing himself to be a martyr would make me feel any better, and this society shouldn't be founded on vengeance. High profile cases like this one and ted kaczynski are almost a smoke screen, and as long as they continue to dominate the death penalty debate, people won't pay attention to the regular, mundane application of it in states like texas and florida, where innocent people are killed. The justice system in the U.S. was supposed to be set up so that nobody could be wrongly convicted, as this is not always the case today we can at least make sure that nobody is wrongly killed by the state.

always good to hear an international perspective on things like this.




~~~SPITFIRE: AUGUST 23, 2001~~~
HipHop. Old school style. In Full Effect. Want Info? Email: carameldom@hotmail.com

http://www.welcome.to/okaypoets (u ain't a real okayplayer if u ain't been here)

"cats pop champagne/over misery and pain/like slaves on the ship/talkin 'bout/who got the flyest chains" ~~Talib Kweli

what are you going to do when the government deems your life expendable... and it is in their control to end it? People live inside their own moral right and never think about the fact that their moral right might not always be popular.

It is wrong to kill... EXCEPT when the person you're killing has killed someone else.
It is wrong to kill... EXCEPT when the person you're killing has molested a child.
It is wrong to kill... EXCEPT when the person you're killing has robbed a bank.
It is wrong to kill... EXCEPT when the person you're killing has run a stop sign.
It is wrong to kill... EXCEPT when the person you're killing is black or jewish or mexican or polish or white.

The word EXCEPT negates the entire first part of the statement. So basically it's not ALWAYS wrong to kill. So basically there WILL come a time when you've done (or BEEN) something that everyone thinks isn't wrong to kill you for.


"Me fail english? That's unpossible!"

"You couldn't fool your mother on the foolingest day of your life if you had an electrified fooling machine!"

"Shaggy, sometimes I think you'd rather eat a pizza pie than solve a mystery!" -Velma

>The word EXCEPT negates the entire
>first part of the statement.
>So basically it's not ALWAYS
>wrong to kill. So basically
>there WILL come a time
>when you've done (or BEEN)
>something that everyone thinks isn't
>wrong to kill you for.

diggin that.




~~~SPITFIRE: AUGUST 23, 2001~~~
HipHop. Old school style. In Full Effect. Want Info? Email: carameldom@hotmail.com

http://www.welcome.to/okaypoets (u ain't a real okayplayer if u ain't been here)

"cats pop champagne/over misery and pain/like slaves on the ship/talkin 'bout/who got the flyest chains" ~~Talib Kweli