The "so-called" growing black middle class in America. What is their purpose in life? To imitate their "white counterparts", because this is what I've experienced and come to witness in my community. Black people in America have been "duped" into believing that "actual" FREEDOM is acting like white/european folks.

What do you think?

Has any one read "The Black Burgoise"?

I have read Roots and there i saw how african americans born in america were often ashamed of Africa and loved America as a country.

That was back then (and only according to Alex Haley), i don't know how it is today. But it is strange to see as much afrocentricity as it is today, when i read about how it was back then: Even free blacks would go up nawth to become a part of America and many wouldnt go back to Africa if they had the chance!

>
>The "so-called" growing black middle class
>in America. What is their
>purpose in life? To imitate
>their "white counterparts", because this
>is what I've experienced and
>come to witness in my
>community. Black people in America
>have been "duped" into believing
>that "actual" FREEDOM is acting
>like white/european folks.

Which actions strike you as white/european?

>
>What do you think?
>
>Has any one read "The Black
>Burgoise"?

Yeah i'm curious too, since my parents are first-generation "black middle class"
----------------------------------------
I am my own person, I fit no stereotypes, I am a demographic of one.

Guess what, I've got a fever! And the only prescription is more cowbell!
-Christopher Walken, Blue Oyster Cult sketch from SNL

He Looks hurt pretty bad.......... Let's Get out of Here!
-Lenny & Carl

The black middle class is a buffer group. I know cause I grew up on the fault line between the black underclass and the black middle class. Don't just look at PG County Maryland -- check out the Chicago 'burbs. Middle class black people often see poor blacks as the problem just like whites. Black people don't like crime, either; and they are just as programmed to view us in the ghetto as criminals, drug addicts, and welfare queens as white people. They believe in the empty American dream and will conform to get it. Don't be fooled by their "Afrocentricity"; progressive black politics threatens the status quo, and believe me, the black middle class has an investment in the status quo, or believes it does. However, the burgeoning intellectuals that grew up along the fault line like myself (or were brought face-to-face with the contradictions of their class) are trying to set the agenda for us in the new century. Hip-hop intellectualism alone won't save us w/o recourse to Delaney, Cruse, Woodson, and all the people young black people in college are being exposed to. Not everyone is getting their minds blown...most are just in college so they can get that paper or some symbolic power...but the mental liberation afforded by the gains of the black middle-class is affording the incubation of proto-revolutionary thought.
So, the black middle class itself is useless, but is necessary as an incubator for the next niggaz who may bring the pain to this distressed system we live in.

So please correct me if I'm wrong, my interpretation of what you said is that you consider the black middle class sell-out blacks. You seem to be saying that the black middle class are the black people who got an education in a field, went into that trade and got some money and turned their back on the other black people. You believe that many people in the black middle class say that they are liberal but are really conservative so they can keep their money.
So let me see if i can summarize this up
Blacks w/o money: sell-outs whoare only conforming so they can live comfortable lives
Blacks w/o money: those who are "keeping it real" and not conforming to a system that treats them so badly.
Please if I am incorrect than please furthur explain your opinion becuase it baffles me.
----------------------------------------
I am my own person, I fit no stereotypes, I am a demographic of one.

Guess what, I've got a fever! And the only prescription is more cowbell!
-Christopher Walken, Blue Oyster Cult sketch from SNL

He Looks hurt pretty bad.......... Let's Get out of Here!
-Lenny & Carl

>So please correct me if I'm
>wrong, my interpretation of what
>you said is that you
>consider the black middle class
>sell-out blacks.

You never saw the term "sell-out", which is a loaded term that doesn't really have much application. Also, you are oversimplifying a complex subject. It is strange that you ignored the statements on the origin of black intellectualism in the middle class.

You seem to
>be saying that the black
>middle class are the black
>people who got an education
>in a field, went into
>that trade and got some
>money and turned their back
>on the other black people.
>You believe that many people
>in the black middle class
>say that they are liberal
>but are really conservative so
>they can keep their money.

Yes, the black middle class and upwardly mobile blacks want to keep what they think they have, and that is conservative in the classic sense, but not in the modern-day sense. Because of this tension between a comfortable status quo and the obvious effects of racism, it may be more accurate to say that the black middle class actually has no "politics" other than vague notions of cultural democracy and economic maintenance.

>
>So let me see if i
>can summarize this up
>Blacks w/o money: sell-outs whoare only
>conforming so they can live
>comfortable lives
>Blacks w/o money: those who are
>"keeping it real" and not
>conforming to a system that
>treats them so badly.
>Please if I am incorrect than
>please furthur explain your opinion
>becuase it baffles me.

"sell-out", "conservative", "keeping it real" -- are you debating my statement or attempting to trivialize it? Come with something more than buzzwords and vague generalizations loosely based on what I said, and then I will offer a real response.

>You never saw the term "sell-out",
>which is a loaded term
>that doesn't really have much
>application. Also, you are oversimplifying
>a complex subject. It is
>strange that you ignored the
>statements on the origin of
>black intellectualism in the middle
>class.

The word sell-out has a lot of application in my opinion it is what you just said. You claim that the black middle class comforms to the "american dream" which is what most people refer to as a stricly european/western viewpoint. What you said is that the black middle class is not liberal and can not have progressive views.

>Yes, the black middle class and
>upwardly mobile blacks want to
>keep what they think they
>have, and that is conservative
>in the classic sense, but
>not in the modern-day sense.
>Because of this tension between
>a comfortable status quo and
>the obvious effects of racism,
>it may be more accurate
>to say that the black
>middle class actually has no
>"politics" other than vague notions
>of cultural democracy and economic
>maintenance.

I guess you could say conservative in the classical sense, but than i could pin that label on anyone. No one wants to lose what they have at all. I think the "middle class" has politcs but they seem trivial in your opinion since based on your post yours seem radically left.
I don't feel a debate would be possible on this topic anymore becuase your viewpoints don't seem to be based so much on racial lines, but on destruction of the capitalist system as a whole. The term black middle class is vauge enough, to me it means not poor but not rich. but what i have a problem with is the attack on upwardly mobile black class and not so much the system as a whole. You seemed to argue that those blacks with money turn their noses down at those in the ghetto. I argue that point becuase many blacks who are middle-class now were raised in the ghetto. The reason I used the word "sell-out" was becuase at the beginning of the column you wrote you said that the "black middle class" acts like white people. That is a very devisive position that is fostering an intrarace them against us mentality. That is why I used te term "sell-out" becuase you claimed that the black middle class sold themselves out to white america so they could get good jobs and decent pay.
It seems to me that your idea is that if you are black and you have money you did something very wrong.
If you feel that way than don't come out and attack other black people, just come out and attack the capitalist system that you seem to despise.
----------------------------------------
I am my own person, I fit no stereotypes, I am a demographic of one.

Guess what, I've got a fever! And the only prescription is more cowbell!
-Christopher Walken, Blue Oyster Cult sketch from SNL

He Looks hurt pretty bad.......... Let's Get out of Here!
-Lenny & Carl

You seem so well read, how did you eff up and go Greek brother?

I'm interested in this part of your post.

>So, the black middle class itself
>is useless, but is necessary
>as an incubator for the
>next niggaz who may bring
>the pain to this distressed
>system we live in.

Could you please elaborate?

And if the black middle class is useless, what are you fighting for?

SirLau -- man, that's a good question, but I think it should be in that other post. For now, just leave it at leadership and the fact that there are a lot of progressive politics in BGLOs that no one knows about and many members don't even comprehend.....

>I'm interested in this part of
>your post.
>
>>So, the black middle class itself
>>is useless, but is necessary
>>as an incubator for the
>>next niggaz who may bring
>>the pain to this distressed
>>system we live in.
>
>Could you please elaborate?
>
For real, Afrakan-Americans have NEVER had the access to knowledge while living on these shores that we have now. Without the gains of the black middle class, we still wouldn't. Now, grant me that most people are afraid to access knowledge and of the ones that aren't most are afraid to use that knowledge. Now, this last group is the group that either fosters or initiates "structural transformation". What the black middle class has afforded us is the ability to build the base that can either transmit the mores of the next movement or else start it ourselves. One of the most poorly understood phenomena is radical social movements and how they tend to occur when people have a lot and are getting it taken away....

>And if the black middle class
>is useless, what are you
>fighting for?

Freedom, man. Something I think we only vaguely have a concept of anymore. And I think we have to rediscover what that is first.

>The black middle class is a
>buffer group. I know cause
>I grew up on the
>fault line between the black
>underclass and the black middle
>class. Don't just look at
>PG County Maryland -- check
>out the Chicago 'burbs. Middle
>class black people often see
>poor blacks as the problem
>just like whites. Black people
>don't like crime, either; and
>they are just as programmed
>to view us in the
>ghetto as criminals, drug addicts,
>and welfare queens as white
>people. They believe in the
>empty American dream and will
>conform to get it. Don't
>be fooled by their "Afrocentricity";
>progressive black politics threatens the
>status quo, and believe me,
>the black middle class has
>an investment in the status
>quo, or believes it does.
>However, the burgeoning intellectuals that
>grew up along the fault
>line like myself (or were
>brought face-to-face with the contradictions
>of their class) are trying
>to set the agenda for
>us in the new century.
>Hip-hop intellectualism alone won't save
>us w/o recourse to Delaney,
>Cruse, Woodson, and all the
>people young black people in
>college are being exposed to.
>Not everyone is getting their
>minds blown...most are just in
>college so they can get
>that paper or some symbolic
>power...but the mental liberation afforded
>by the gains of the
>black middle-class is affording the
>incubation of proto-revolutionary thought.
>So, the black middle class itself
>is useless, but is necessary
>as an incubator for the
>next niggaz who may bring
>the pain to this distressed
>system we live in.






Yo! whoever you are, your "clear cut" analysis is to be respected. The dynamics you've mentioned pretty much "summed up" the totality of this topic. Don't get me wrong. There are a great deal of Afrikans in America of middle class and upper class status you have done great things "our" people and mankind in general, but these individuals are of a small group. The late great Afrikan intellectual "W.E.B. Dubious" comes to fruition. He was a snob! No doubt! But his contribution to the intellectual community and the study of Black/Afrikan folk was "off the hook".

Within my research, the "Black middle class" has been "created" as a buffer group to put across the rest of the race a "mythology of individaul progress".

Malcolm X talked about "house Negroes and field Negroes" in his speeches, sometimes referring to Black leaders (civil rights) and the Black bourgeoisie (middle class). But they were all slaves weren't they? It was still chattel slavery whether or not slaves worked in the field or in the house with "massa".

Both white and Black intellectuals argued that the black middle class escaped racism based on social-political mobility: being wealthier, more prestigious, and more educated. But the racism does not discriminate based on class. Middle class Black people experience racism but it's often ignored by the majority culture/mainstream.

I think the mainstream culture created this illusion of a Black middle class to divide and conquer, to keep Black folks confused and trapped in the system ("haves" and "have nots").


"Trials and tribulations make you stronger live longer
You wanna reach the nation nigga start from your corner
Everything in life don't always happen like you plan it
Demand it, overstand it, then you handle it
Fuck wishing, you missing the ambition in your mission
Now you switching, why you quitting 'cuz it's heat in the kitchen?
--Big Boi

"Know thyself"

"Let your conduct be without covetousness; be content with such things as you have. For He Himself has said, "I will never leave you or forsake you". So we may boldly say, "The Lord is my helper, I will not fear. What can man do to me?"
-- Hebrews 13:5,6

"There is a difference between knowing the path and walking the path"
--Morpheus in "The Matrix"

"It's our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities"- Dumbledore to Harry Potter "Chamber of Secrets"

Well spoken sister! Well spoken!

Amani

at least that's the impression i get from a lot of people on these boards. look at it this way: if you have a choice to improve your life and you turn it down for any reason, you really need your head checked. i don't support black people adopting "mainstream white" values but i don't agree that you can group the black middle class into one group. there is no uniformity of ideology in the black middle class. some of them try to distance themselves from their community as much as possible, others try to use their better economic position to improve thier community.
middle class itself is not an ideology, it is defined by how much you bring home.
some of your favourite political activists/"conscious" rappers are from the black middle class. so don't think that they can be classified as a stagnant class.
we don't go to universities and colleges so that we can come out the same place we started(just so as not to be labelled bourgie).
please, we trying to break the five figure income line...with absolutely no apologies.
SIGNATURE STARTS YONDER
"I'm not looking...forward to seeing
him"- Snoop on Suge's release.
understatement of the year :-)
**************************
:-)NE LOVE/N:-(LOVE
(THE C:PHICE IS Y:9URS)
**************************
The emoticon as 'O' symbol is a
registered trademark of dafriquan.
No biting without written permission.
*************************

>at least that's the impression i
>get from a lot of
>people on these boards. look
>at it this way: if
>you have a choice to
>improve your life and you
>turn it down for any
>reason, you really need your
>head checked. i don't support
>black people adopting "mainstream white"
>values but i don't agree
>that you can group the
>black middle class into one
>group. there is no uniformity
>of ideology in the black
>middle class. some of them
>try to distance themselves from
>their community as much as


>possible, others try to use
>their better economic position to
>improve thier community.
>middle class itself is not an
>ideology, it is defined by
>how much you bring home.
>
>some of your favourite political activists/"conscious"
>rappers are from the black
>middle class. so don't think
>that they can be classified
>as a stagnant class.
>we don't go to universities and
>colleges so that we can
>come out the same place
>we started(just so as not
>to be labelled bourgie).
>please, we trying to break the
>five figure income line...with absolutely
>no apologies.
>SIGNATURE STARTS YONDER
>"I'm not looking...forward to seeing
>him"- Snoop on Suge's release.
>understatement of the year :-)
>**************************
> :-)NE LOVE/N:-(LOVE
>
> (THE C:PHICE IS Y:9URS)
>
>**************************
>The emoticon as 'O' symbol is
>a
>registered trademark of dafriquan.
>No biting without written permission.
>*************************















YO SON! You need to sharpen your critical thinking skills! We are not talking about Black people living in poverty. WE DON'T STRUUGLE TO BE POOR!!! The gist of the topic was the Black middle class and it's overall purpose in our community. Both of my parents are college graduates, grandfather,great aunt, me and both of my sisters!!

Disclaimer: i'm not sure why some okayplayers need to adopt the "holier than thou" approach but i'm willing to play along.
>YO SON! You need to sharpen
>your critical thinking skills! We
You need to sharpen your thinking skills period. wouldn't hurt to read the other replies either...perhaps that might help you see the position that i'm defending.
>are not talking about Black
>people living in poverty. WE
>DON'T STRUUGLE TO BE POOR!!!
>The gist of the topic
>was the Black middle class
>and it's overall purpose in
To imitate their "white counterparts", because this is what I've experienced and come to witness in my community.
Black people in America have been "duped" into believing that "actual" FREEDOM is acting like white/european folks.

Your words not mine. Assuming that's the gist. What did I say that was off topic. I merely reminded y'all that not all middle class black folks belong to the "acting like white Europeans" group. There is another group that uses their resources to better the community without distancing themselves from it.
The whole poverty issue which I also brought up was referring to people on this board in general. it is related to the post since this is about the black middle class.
>our community. Both of my
>parents are college graduates, grandfather,great
so are mine.
>aunt, me and both of
>my sisters!!
well clap for yourself. rhula wanna cracker?(no pun intended) do you or do they act white? if the answer is no then you need not be arguing with me.
that's all I wanted to say.
p.s. save the bullshit...you can have your post all to yourself. sorry i can't echo your opinions. mr critical thinker ...lol... if heads only knew(c)heather b

SIGNATURE STARTS YONDER
"I'm not looking...forward to seeing
him"- Snoop on Suge's release.
understatement of the year :-)
**************************
:-)NE LOVE/N:-(LOVE
(THE C:PHICE IS Y:9URS)
**************************
The emoticon as 'O' symbol is a
registered trademark of dafriquan.
No biting without written permission.
*************************

If you are not part of the Black Middle Class, and your not poor than are you wealthy? I don't understand where you position yourself in all of this.

*****

Bored at Work.

>The "so-called" growing black middle class
>in America. What is their
>purpose in life? To imitate
>their "white counterparts", because this
>is what I've experienced and
>come to witness in my
>community. Black people in America
>have been "duped" into believing
>that "actual" FREEDOM is acting
>like white/european folks.
>
>What do you think?

Agree. Why is it that as black folks, why do we think we have "arrived" when we acquire alot of the material shit that white folks own ??? Don't get me wrong, i want to see us all doing well but a lot of times when black folks get money they simply are brown versions of their white counterparts. You can be black, affluent and not be "crackerized" so to speak. The reality factor slaps alot of them in the face when they drive their paid for, expensive car and still get pulled over simply for being black, that right there is the reality check for their ass.



>Has any one read "The Black
>Burgoise"?

Haven't but have heard about the book and intend to get my hands on a copy. Speaking of books, has anyone read "Our Kind of People" ?

My .02

so what is freedom?

what's living like white people mean?

Not one of the "Afrocentric" Posters have answer the question which comes up repeatedly. What does it mean to be "brown versions of their white counterparts" or "crackerized".


*****

Bored at Work.

The original Post gets me heated because it based on the assumption that Middleclass Black People model themselves after there White COunterparts. thats hogwash for the following reasons.

1. White Culture does not equal American Culture.

Sure Middle Class Black People exemplify American Culture, but American Culture respresents contributions from a variety of cultural sources not just white culture (btw what is white culture? arguably it does not exist). European, Asian, Latin and African all are cultural sources of American Culture. to say that adopting AMerican values is adopting White values, overestimates European cutural contributions and underestimates other groups cultural influences.


2. African-Americans are not a completely seperate class of Americans wholy distinct from American Culture (Visual:Two seperate Circles).

The truth is that African-Americans are merely a Subset of the larger group Americans. (Visual: A circle within a Circle). As a Subset we possess a lot of the characteristics of the larger culture. It seems to me a lot of the time that the Afrocentric hate to admit that they have more in common with White Kid from New Jersey, than a Black person from the Sudan.




*****

Bored at Work.

The Black middle class does not exist.

"I think the mainstream culture created this illusion of a Black middle class to divide and conquer, to keep Black folks confused and trapped in the system ("haves" and "have nots")."

Hey, even white/Western culture is an illusion. People just agree that it's real. That's why people get all confused. It confused me for years until I realized that I was giving my full attention to Western standards and ideals.


"Trials and tribulations make you stronger live longer
You wanna reach the nation nigga start from your corner
Everything in life don't always happen like you plan it
Demand it, overstand it, then you handle it
Fuck wishing, you missing the ambition in your mission
Now you switching, why you quitting 'cuz it's heat in the kitchen?
--Big Boi

"Know thyself"

"Let your conduct be without covetousness; be content with such things as you have. For He Himself has said, "I will never leave you or forsake you". So we may boldly say, "The Lord is my helper, I will not fear. What can man do to me?"
-- Hebrews 13:5,6

"There is a difference between knowing the path and walking the path"
--Morpheus in "The Matrix"

"It's our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities"- Dumbledore to Harry Potter "Chamber of Secrets"

Your making very little sense. To make such statements you must back them with facts, or at least a theory.

"Hey, even white/Western culture is an illusion. People just agree that it's real. "

If people all agree to assign a label "Western Culture" to a phenomenon(American Way of life), than what makes it not real?

*****

Bored at Work.

The Middle Class is defined as people making more then $35k/year, that's it, it's nothing more then an economic classification. It doesn't denote socio-political power, it doesn't mean you won't be discriminated against. All it indicates is that your income is above a certain amount.

Same goes for Upper Middle Class, to be Upper Middle Class you have to make more then 75k/year....putting you in the top 20% of all income earners, again, it's just an economic classification.

If anything, the Black Middle Class are an indicator of how deeply seated some racist attitudes are, AND they are a tremendous indicator of the barriers poorer Blacks face as they try to improve their lives.

Affluent Blacks with good credit, are rejected for mortgages at the same rate as Poor Whites with Bad credit. The problem is that even with the financial evidence in front of them, the loan officer still sees a shifty negro who can't pay his bills.

Selling Out: To truly sell out, affluent Blacks would have to have been given a choice. E.g. Disavow your heritage, do X that will hurt your family and people, etc, etc. But that doesn't happen, affluent Blacks don't have to deny their heritage to succeed, they simply have to put their minds to it, dodge the hurdles this country throws at them and simply not give up.

Knowing what you need to do in order to succeed and getting it done, is how you become affluent...not by "selling out"

The concept of middle class Blacks being sell outs, is a leftover from slave days....when we were taught that only whites could succeed....so in Today's world we think successful Blacks are denying their Blackness to succeed.

I grew up in a Upper Middle Class home, and I've created a similar economic status for myself now that I'm on my own. Nowhere along my parents and my own path to success, was it required for us to act against our people, deny our heritage or act White. Just ask the White Boys I work with, I'm not the Brotha that lets Joe White man go around justifying discrimination or try to pontificate on how racism doesn't exist, without ripping him a new one.

There is nothing wrong with economic success and you shouldn't feel guilty for having it. Blacks should want economic success, so that we can become the powerful and not the powerless.....taking care of the economic part is the first step towards rebuilding some of the centuries old wounds stemming from racism and slavery. Feed the body before you feed the soul.



Peace,





M2

This issue is not a theorectical one. For me and I would venture to say for many people posting it is one of personal experience.

I am a member of the black middle class. My family lives in a just about an all white neighborhood. My father drives a late model Lexus. I have attend private school most of my life. Do I feel like a sell out? No.

How did my family get here? My parents have dedicated their careers helping uplift the black community. My mother taught school second grade kids in a parochial school in inner city Baltimore (all black). My father is doctor who started off as a pediatrian in Baltimore health clinics and then moved on to an administrator in managed care. He is now the medical director of a Black owned HMO that serves primarily the Medicaid population.

My family is where it is today because of care about the black community and not because of "selling out". Do I question all the creature comforts around me? Definately, but never do I question my blackness or dedication to the black community.

Because unlike my parents, the black community is not where I live I do constantly have to challenge myself to keep abreast of issues pertainent to black community by reading newpapers, books ect and participating in the community through church and social organizations at school.

I see my place in society is a someone who needs to give back. The quote I live by, "To whom, much is given more is expected".

I'm not saying that my situation is the situation of every member of the Black middle class, but I am sure that my case is not an isolated occurrance either.

Think about that before making sweeping statements.

freethought

Why are some black people so critical of their own race? If a black man works hard and he moves his family into a better neighborhood he's acting white. If a black person talks proper he's as acting white.


The black middle class should be applauded, this represents a group of people who have made an effort to not play into the stereotypes. Many of those people have worked hard to get where they are at, these are people who by their efforts are making the statement that all black people are'nt on welfare, all black men don't end up in prison or sell drugs.


Whats wrong with a black person making a decent income and living in the suburbs?