HTP
(This is an okaytrip into Afrakan theology.)

God is immanent and transcendent. This idea reverberates throughout the continent of Afraka (Africa), whether in the West, South, East, etc. we can find this idea pervading the thoughts and actions of various "ethnic" groups. It can even be found outside of the continent (amongst who would be considered "non-Afrakans") but for this discussion, I'll stick to Afrakans.

First let's define the terms "immanent" and "transcendent."

Webster's-
immanent
: remaining or operating within a domain of reality or realm of discourse : INHERENT; specifically : having existence or effect only within the mind or consciousness

transcendent
1 a : exceeding usual limits : SURPASSING b : extending or lying beyond the limits of ordinary experience c in Kantian philosophy : being beyond the limits of all possible experience and knowledge
2 : being beyond comprehension
3 : transcending the universe or material existence

As you can see, the two words are in fact antonyms, to be both would in fact present itself as a paradox. In the Afrakan mind, the Supreme could be nothing BUT a paradox as in order to be infinite, one must be ALL. In fact this is one of the primary principles derived KMT as seen in the Hermetic principles, according to _The Kybalion_. "The All is in All" and the "All is beyond All" are key to understanding this.

So yes this presents the idea that "God" is everything (and nothing) in the Afrakan mind. Imagine a picture of circle within a circle, within a circle, within a circle, til infinity, this exemplifies immanency. Simultaneously, imagine that same picture as NOTHING (blank picture). This exemplies transcendency.

Before I continue, I want to say this: Whenever a person tries to learn new concepts, usually the first thing that they do try to find connections between the new concept and previously held concepts. Basically when I have stated before in other posts, that one is superimposing a previously held notion onto another (western concept onto afrikan), I have said so to make the person AWARE of what they are doing. I personally would argue that this is a natural action to make and not in and of itself “wrong.” The only time it becomes a problem, is when the person makes no attempt to change the tendency and continues to make the same mistake. Then it becomes “universalizing” and I don’t think I need to discuss how erroneous and pitiful that is.

PEace
Solarus

***Words of Wisdom***

"Every time you rise from your sleeping state, you have been reincarnated. Every time you recover from a bad experience, you have been reincarnated. Every time you have been given a new lease on life, you have been reincarnated. Every time you breath in and out, take in the fresh breath of life and feel the divine intelligence flowing in and around you, you have been reincarnated."- Mfundishi Bakari

On "love":

"I am in love everyday, whether I am with someone or not. Why? All love is based on a search for spirit. For me love is timeless, transcendent, peaceful, freeing, soul-based, unifying, and enhanced evolution. This is the basis of my activism."- Nettrice, the embodiment of Oshun

"Since we all make up the rules as we go along, love can mean many different things to many different people. But, for me love is a total commitment to understanding that is not limited to just people but is open to the totality of life. As long as we approach love from a fear based mentality and perceive it through veils of guardedness and anxiety, it will always be restricted by our fears."- Mfundishi Bakari

HTP

If God is within all things, then are humans of the same substance as God? According to Afrakan theology, the answer is yes. Using this template, the order and structure of Afrakan systems becomes readily understandable. For instance in Yoruba, one finds the orishas. Western theologians often misinterpret the orishas as distinct “gods.” This is expected considering the separateness of “God” and “His creations” as is found in Western religions, but we will get to this later. The orishas are in fact aspects, attributes of the creators that each have specific functions, much like arms and legs have functions on the human body but are inextricably the parts of a whole. See here: http://www.okayplayer.com/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=2430&forum=DCForumID1&archive=yes#40

Then in among the Akan of West Afraka (Ghana), the human is see as being the composition of “okra” (no not the food L), “sunsum” and “honam.” Okra being roughly translated as “the living soul” or “essence of the person;” Sunsum as the “activating principle of the person;” and honam the physical body. The Okra and sunsum create a spiritual unity from received from Nyame (God) while the honam is received from the parents. However the honam is the “tangible recognizable manifestation of the okra” (Wade Nobles). I made the comment in another post about how the error in a Christian wearing the adinkra symbol Gye Nyame which roughly translates into “God is omnipotent.” The reason why it is in error is specifically based on the theme of the post “God is immanent and transcendent.” God is omnipotent because IT is ALL to the Afrakan but this idea is not the same for the Christian, who differentiates between God and “His creations.”

Among the Lebou people of Senegal, the person IS the “Fit” or lifeforce. The human journey begins when the lifeforce is given “roo” or physical life. Also the human can only exist with the possession of “raabs” which are spiritual/ancestral forces comparable to the orishas of the Yoruba.

For the Bantu-speaking peoples:

"NTU is the universal force as such, which, however, never occurs apart from its manifestations: Muntu, Kintu, Hantu, and Kuntu. NTU is Being itself, the cosmic universal force, which only modern, rationalizing thought (i.e. Western thought) can abstract from its manifestations. NTU is that force in which Being and beings coalesce...

If we said NTU was a force manifesting itself in man, beast thing, place, time, beauty, ugliness, laughter, tears and so on, this statement would be false, for it would imply that NTU was something independent beyond all of these things. NTU is what Muntu, Kintu, HAntu, and Kuntu all equally are. Force and matter are not being united in this conception; on the contrary, they have never been apart.

NTU expresses, not the effect of these forces, but their being. But the forces act continually, and are constantly effective. Only if one could call a halt to the whole univers, if life suddenly stood still, would NTU be revealed."- parentheses mine

^From http://www.okayplayer.com/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=2430&forum=DCForumID1&archive=yes#9

So now in closing, “let’s take it back” to KMT cuz I know how you all love KMT.

Here’s an excerpt from the “To Be African or Not to Be” article by Wade Nobles:

The key to understanding Ancient Kemetic Philosophy, is in fact, the belief about the meaning of the person. Because the person was a manifestation or expression of “Nu,” the primordial substance, the ancients regarded the “form” of the human being as destined to live forever. Hence, institutions were developed to enable the person to eveolve in response to the challenges of nature. The human person, like other forms, has an “unchanging value” and evolves in response to the demands of that value. The ancients regarded the primordial substance, Nu, as infinite. The infinity operated in terms, of its law, which was its will. As a manifestation of Nu, the person represents a manifestation of “the Law.”


Peace
Solarus


Further Reading:

http://www.okayplayer.com/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=2430&forum=DCForumID1&archive=yes
“An essay on African philosophical thought: the Akan conceptual scheme” by Kwame Gyekye
_Egypt Child of Africa_ edited by Ivan van Sertima
_African psychology_ by Wade Nobles

http://www.okayplayer.com/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=2430&forum=DCForumID1&archive=yes#9


***Words of Wisdom***

"Every time you rise from your sleeping state, you have been reincarnated. Every time you recover from a bad experience, you have been reincarnated. Every time you have been given a new lease on life, you have been reincarnated. Every time you breath in and out, take in the fresh breath of life and feel the divine intelligence flowing in and around you, you have been reincarnated."- Mfundishi Bakari

On "love":

"I am in love everyday, whether I am with someone or not. Why? All love is based on a search for spirit. For me love is timeless, transcendent, peaceful, freeing, soul-based, unifying, and enhanced evolution. This is the basis of my activism."- Nettrice, the embodiment of Oshun

"Since we all make up the rules as we go along, love can mean many different things to many different people. But, for me love is a total commitment to understanding that is not limited to just people but is open to the totality of life. As long as we approach love from a fear based mentality and perceive it through veils of guardedness and anxiety, it will always be restricted by our fears."- Mfundishi Bakari

>The key to understanding Ancient Kemetic
>Philosophy, is in fact, the
>belief about the meaning of
>the person. Because the
>person was a manifestation or
>expression of “Nu,” the primordial
>substance, the ancients regarded the
>“form” of the human being
>as destined to live forever.
> Hence, institutions were developed
>to enable the person to
>eveolve in response to the
>challenges of nature. The
>human person, like other forms,
>has an “unchanging value” and
>evolves in response to the
>demands of that value.
>The ancients regarded the primordial
>substance, Nu, as infinite.
>The infinity operated in terms,
>of its law, which was
>its will. As a
>manifestation of Nu, the person
>represents a manifestation of “the
>Law.”

Thank you - this is a very interesting post. I was wondering though, what kind of institutions are you talking about? Social institutions? Political, religious? Could you give some examples of these institutions that enable the person to evolve? Thanks.

Peace
______________________________________
"It was inconceivable to me that one should surrender to what seemed wrong, and most of the people I had met seemed wrong. Ought one to surrender to authority even if one believed that that authority was wrong? If the answer was yes, then I knew that I would always be wrong, because I could never do it. Then how could one live in a world in which one's mind and perceptions meant nothing and authority and tradition meant everything? There were no answers."
- Richard Wright, "Black Boy"

HTP

When looking traditional Afrakan cultures, the difference between social/political/religious institutions is minor and de-emphasized. If "God is IMMANENT" then these institutions MUST interrelate. The only difference would be in the particular functions.

E.G.
1. Political institutions determine how the nation is to be run and run it.
2. Social/Educational institutions determine how the nation is perpetuated through the youth.
3. Religious/Spiritual/Scientific institutions determine how theoretical orientations to how the world/universe functions which ultimately influences all of the above.

PEace
Solarus

***Words of Wisdom***

"Every time you rise from your sleeping state, you have been reincarnated. Every time you recover from a bad experience, you have been reincarnated. Every time you have been given a new lease on life, you have been reincarnated. Every time you breath in and out, take in the fresh breath of life and feel the divine intelligence flowing in and around you, you have been reincarnated."- Mfundishi Bakari

On "love":

"I am in love everyday, whether I am with someone or not. Why? All love is based on a search for spirit. For me love is timeless, transcendent, peaceful, freeing, soul-based, unifying, and enhanced evolution. This is the basis of my activism."- Nettrice, the embodiment of Oshun

"Since we all make up the rules as we go along, love can mean many different things to many different people. But, for me love is a total commitment to understanding that is not limited to just people but is open to the totality of life. As long as we approach love from a fear based mentality and perceive it through veils of guardedness and anxiety, it will always be restricted by our fears."- Mfundishi Bakari

I don't think I asked my question clearly - sorry. umm... how did the people in the kemetic society use these institutions to adapt and evolve? are you talking about a general, society-wide mindset that created institutions that mirrored the attitude of the people, or did the Ancient Kemetic Philosophy that you talked about generate specific institutions that the people then used to adapt in ways that they couldn't have before? I have a limited knowledge of how the kemetic society was actually structured, so any info you can give is appreciated. If that's still not a clear question just say so, I'll try to clarify.

Peace
______________________________________
"At the risk of sounding ridiculous, let me say that the true revolutionary is guided by great feelings of love."
- Che Guevara

to attempt answering this question as soon as I finish the post.

PEace
Solarus

***Words of Wisdom***

"Every time you rise from your sleeping state, you have been reincarnated. Every time you recover from a bad experience, you have been reincarnated. Every time you have been given a new lease on life, you have been reincarnated. Every time you breath in and out, take in the fresh breath of life and feel the divine intelligence flowing in and around you, you have been reincarnated."- Mfundishi Bakari

On "love":

"I am in love everyday, whether I am with someone or not. Why? All love is based on a search for spirit. For me love is timeless, transcendent, peaceful, freeing, soul-based, unifying, and enhanced evolution. This is the basis of my activism."- Nettrice, the embodiment of Oshun

"Since we all make up the rules as we go along, love can mean many different things to many different people. But, for me love is a total commitment to understanding that is not limited to just people but is open to the totality of life. As long as we approach love from a fear based mentality and perceive it through veils of guardedness and anxiety, it will always be restricted by our fears."- Mfundishi Bakari

Could someone direct me to some sources where i could learn more about native Afrikan religion and philosophy? One Love.

although the ourstory post is on time too.....


↑ yours

"you and whose army?" - thom yorke

¥ not?

™ & © & Æ

*Alter Your Ego*

¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤

n.m

HTP
(Christianity and Afraka PT 1 of 3)

The origins of Christianity are definitely debatable. Either one chooses to belief the Biblical account of Christianity’s origins, or they don’t. But what are not debatable are the formative years of Christianity being firmly located on the continent of Afraka. This includes the majority of the earliest, most influential patriarchs of the Christian church such as Origen (Egypt), Tertullian (Carthage/North Afraka), Augustine (Carthage/North Afraka), to name a few.

According to Egyptologist, Samuel Sharpe:
“At the end of the 3rd century, Hesychius of Alexandria had published a new edition of the Greek Bible with a corrected text, and such was the credit of Alexandria, as the chief seat of Christian learning, that all distant churches sent there for copies of the scriptures. When Constantine wanted copies of the Greek scriptures for Rome, he sent for them to Alexandria and received the approved text for Athanasius…Italy and the West acknowledged Egypt as their best instructess in all ecclesiastical matters. “

Considering the “God is IMMANENT” template that we established before, why did not the Afrakan patriarchs infuse this concept into Christianity? The answer is: they did. However it soon became “heretical.” In the beginning of the Common Era, which is distinguished as beginning at or shortly after the death of Jesus the Christ, Christianity already established in Egypt. Only by the second century CE (100 CE), did a clear delineation form between the mainstream Church and the “Gnostics.” The Gnostics believed all humans were divine and that salvation was reached through self-knowledge (gnosis). <- Clear effect of the “God is IMMANENT” concept and subsequently a carry-over from the belief systems of Ancient KMT,

see here: http://www.okayplayer.com/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=1924&forum=DCForumID1&archive=yes#53

In the scholastic center of Alexandria, Egypt, Irenaeus and Titus Flavius Clemens, both of GREEK parentage, emerged as the leaders of the theological movement against Gnosticism, particularly against the Gnostic theologian, Valentinus of EGYPTIAN ancestry. (I emphasized their ancestry to highlight the basic cultural difference that would have influenced their positions. The "God is IMMANENT" concept is largely missing from the Western cultural ethos and thereby a Greek cultural ethos)

Not until the 325 when the Council of Nicea occurred and firmly established the Christianity and the state religion of the Roman Empire, was Gnosticism so vehemently attacked. The theological movement became one of murder, arrest and bloodshed. The Christian church had already destroyed the many of the temples of old KMT and now anyone opposing the new Christianized Roman Empire became targets of destruction. Much like the old “pagan” Roman Empire persecuted “Christians,” the new Christian (roman) empire (and subsequently “new Christians”) persecuted the “heretics.”

For further understanding, when studying the lives of the early patriarchs, the political implications of the stance against “heretics.” For instance, the general stance taken against Gnostics (Christian Gnostics or otherwise), one must understand how at the time believing in the divinity of oneself was detrimental to imperial rule. The church of the Roman Empire insured the “right” to rule of the emperor and established a hierarchal order to the faith. This church was beginning of papal authority that further developed later in the Catholic Church. Thus the idea of the divinity of oneself, negated the need for the church authority for salvation and the dictatorial rule of the emperor. Furthermore, the opponents of the acclaimed St. Augustine, the Donatists, were Christians who did not accept the papal rule of the Roman church. Augustine’s efforts against the Donatists significantly strengthened the authority of the Roman Church.

Let’s have a further look at “God is IMMANENT” concept among words of the Gnostics themselves and found in the Nag Hammadi Library, which is a collection of books found in earthen jars in a cave near what is now called Nag Hammadi, Egypt. Because of the Christian burning of the works used and/or written by Gnostics, much of their ideas had only been seen through the eyes of their mainstream Church opponents, until the finding of the Nag Hammadi texts.

“As for the incomprehensible, inconceivable one, the Father, the perfect one, the one who made the totality, within him is the totality and of him the totality has need. Although he retained their perfection within himself, which he did not give to the totality, the Father was not jealous. What jealously indeed (could there be) between himself and his members? For, if this aeon had thus received their perfection, they could not have come (…) the Father. He retains within himself their perfection, granting it to them as a return to him and a perfectly unitary knowledge. It is he who fashioned the totality, and within him is the totality and the totality was in need of him.” –Valentinus in The Gospel of Truth



“I will begin by invoking God, the Master and Maker and Father and Encompasser of all, who is both One and all things; not that the One is two, but these two are one; for the whole which is made up of all things is one. And I beg you keep this in mind, my King, throughout your study of my teaching. For if any one attempts to separate all things from the One, taking the term “all things” to signify a mere plurality of things, and not a whole made up of things, he will sever the All from the One, and will thereby bring to naught the All; but that is impossible. It needs must be that all things are one, if they exist (and they do exist, and never cease to exist), in order that the whole which is made up of them may not be dissolved.” Libellus XVI-Epistle of Asclepius to King Ammon from the _Corpus Hermeticum_ (This isn’t from the Nag Hammadi nor is it by Christian Gnostics. This is by Gnostics called Hermeticists but I thought it would be a good finisher!)

Further Reading:

_Nag Hammadi Library_ edited by James Robinson
_Hermetica_ edited by Walter Scott
_Egyptian Mythology and Egyptian Christianity with Their Influences on the Opinions of Modern Christendom_ by Samuel Sharpe
_The Donatist Church: A Movement of Protest in Roman North Africa_ by W.H.C. Frend

PEace
Solarus

***Words of Wisdom***

"Every time you rise from your sleeping state, you have been reincarnated. Every time you recover from a bad experience, you have been reincarnated. Every time you have been given a new lease on life, you have been reincarnated. Every time you breath in and out, take in the fresh breath of life and feel the divine intelligence flowing in and around you, you have been reincarnated."- Mfundishi Bakari

On "love":

"I am in love everyday, whether I am with someone or not. Why? All love is based on a search for spirit. For me love is timeless, transcendent, peaceful, freeing, soul-based, unifying, and enhanced evolution. This is the basis of my activism."- Nettrice, the embodiment of Oshun

"Since we all make up the rules as we go along, love can mean many different things to many different people. But, for me love is a total commitment to understanding that is not limited to just people but is open to the totality of life. As long as we approach love from a fear based mentality and perceive it through veils of guardedness and anxiety, it will always be restricted by our fears."- Mfundishi Bakari

Can you explain better, how God is w/ in the all? didn't he create the all? and if God created the all, who or what created God?

HTP

(Christianity and Afraka PT 2 of 3)

One of the major effects of the “God is IMMANENT” concept, is “diversity.” “Diversity” in the sense that one’s concept of the divine and the universe INCLUSIVE versus being mutually EXCLUSIVE. If God is truly IMMANENT and TRANSCENDENT then any conception of IT can POTENTIALLY be valid. *POTENTIALLY meaning that if the conception of “God” does not further establish an adequate order and structure for the optimal survival for its adherents then it is useless. This diversity causes little if not any emphasis on the either-or dichotomy in the conception of ideas that is found in Western thought. Thus right or wrong is not defined by some unchanging abstract source, but rather it is defined by the consensus of the group. This simple but pivotal point can be seen in a number of discrepancies, misconceptions, and misunderstandings held between Western and Afrakan concepts.

One illustration of these misunderstandings can be witnessed in a 1603 German report on Africa where the Dutch discussed with the Afrakans of the Gold Coast, how the Christian God gives them(the Dutch) everything they need to survive. The report proceeds:

“When they heard such a thing they marveled and said:”Why doth not our God to us likewise? Why sayeth he and giveth he not to us also Linen Cloth, ironware, basins or copperware and such like goods even as ye receive from your God?” To which they were answered by the Hollanders, “Indeed all such came to us from our Lord god and were meted out unto us but neither had our Lord god forgotten them although they kew Him not.

For verily they had from our Lord God received their gold and He bestowed upon them also the wine of the palm trees and fruit and grain of all sorts, fowl, oxen and goats. Item: bananas, iniamas, and such like, such as were needful for the preserving of their life.” But this they would in no way confess to nor could they believe it that such things would in no way confess to nor could they believe it that such things would come from God and would be bestowed upon them by the grace of God, and then they said that God did give unto them no gold but the earth did give it unto them wherein they did seek it and find it. Nor did God give unto them neither millet nor maize nor corn but the earth did give it unto them when they did sow it and afterward at the right time did reap and garner it.

And for the fruits, these the trees did give unto them, which they themselves had planted. Item, the young goats or lambs did come from the old ones. The sea did give unto them fishes and they needs must catch them therein. So they would not allow that these and such like things did come from God but were brought forth from the earth and from the water and were gained by their labour.”- report by Gotthardt Arthus von Dantzig translated by Jahnheinz Jahn

From the German writer’s perspective, one could speculate that these Afrakans succumb to a materialistic perspective on life and possibly atheist. However the fundamental concept that he is missing is “God is IMMANENT…” For him, succumbing to a Western, specifically European, worldview and probably Christian, God is “separate from His creations.” If “God is IMMANENT” then, IT, alone, does not “give” them anything. They must co-exist and co-construct with everything in their environment, including the trees, soil, and animals which all in totality ARE “God.” For the Dutch, presented in this report, their conception of God is likened to a separate ruling entity that blesses them with “gifts.” This is not so for the Afrakans Thus materialism and atheism could not be plausible distinctions of these groups of Afrakans, simply because the fundamental concept of the divine do not support the assumption of “distinctness from the divine” held by materialism and atheism.

Cont.

Furthermore, these Afrakans were on the Gold Coast (modern-day Ghana), an area now known to consist of Afrakans belonging to the Akan family. Let me begin with:

Obi nkyere akwadaa Nyame.-> No one teaches the supreme being to a child.

This is a common saying in Akanland with multiple meanings. One interpretation is that even amongst the Akans, the conception of the divine is varied and diverse, which is the theme that we will try to follow for now.

According to Akan philosopher, Kwame Gyekye, the Akans make a conceptual distinction between the empirical (material) and nonempirical (spiritual) world, sharing in some features and interacting with one another, while Kwasi Wiredu suggests that the spiritual and material worlds compose a universe that is homogeneous. However one concept that is generally held by the Akans is the importance of “law.” “Law” or the “laws of nature” are heavily emphasized by the Akans as unchangeable and unyielding, as it (they) are the cosmic order which structure the universe. But it must be noted that in the Akan sense of “nature” no line is drawn between the material and spiritual and they all are part of the cosmic order.

Thus for the above meeting of the Dutch and Akans in 1603, the “Law” or cosmic order determines that the land must be sown, rain must fall, earth must be fertile and sun must shine in order for a proper harvest. Akan philosophy holds that “all things are part of a comprehensive universe”-Wiredu. This universe must then complement one another as this is proper order. A separate distinct “God” cannot provide them with everything they need to survive. In fact this would go against the “order,” which is impossible since the Law is indefeasible. To Western scholars the Akan God is thus limited by not being able to counteract the law when in fact God IS the LAW as is represented by the adinkra symbol, Gye Nyame (God is Omnipotent).

In closing, let me say that two Akan philosophers that I referenced, Kwasi Wiredu and Kwame Gyeke, both agree on the Akan consensus of “two heads are better than one.” This statement implies that no one’s explanation is taken as final. Thus we come full circle back to “diversity.” Diversity directly relates to the accepting of “change,” “adapting” and “evolving” that are held as essential qualities to possess in the Afrakan mind.

PEace
Solarus

Further Reading:

Articles by Kwasi Wiredu, Kwame Gyeke, K.A. Busia <-Akan scholars

_The Akan Doctrine of God: A Fragment of Gold Coast Ethics_ by J.B. Danquah

***Words of Wisdom***

"Every time you rise from your sleeping state, you have been reincarnated. Every time you recover from a bad experience, you have been reincarnated. Every time you have been given a new lease on life, you have been reincarnated. Every time you breath in and out, take in the fresh breath of life and feel the divine intelligence flowing in and around you, you have been reincarnated."- Mfundishi Bakari

On "love":

"I am in love everyday, whether I am with someone or not. Why? All love is based on a search for spirit. For me love is timeless, transcendent, peaceful, freeing, soul-based, unifying, and enhanced evolution. This is the basis of my activism."- Nettrice, the embodiment of Oshun

"Since we all make up the rules as we go along, love can mean many different things to many different people. But, for me love is a total commitment to understanding that is not limited to just people but is open to the totality of life. As long as we approach love from a fear based mentality and perceive it through veils of guardedness and anxiety, it will always be restricted by our fears."- Mfundishi Bakari

(((((PEACE)))))
____________________________________________________________
“One who has not studied the facts has no place in a discussion.” -Mao Zedong

"God is good, me love God, God love me. God will take care of me, Jesus love me too, I will repent all my sins and give me to Jesus, Jesus will take me to heaven with him. Jesus loves me, me good. Me give money to church, church good. Pastor needs new car, Jesus loves me, Jesus loves pastor. Jesus is God, jesus is son of God, Jesus is father of god, me confused now. Me go to sleep now, me need nap, me brain tired. -Christians"
-ish_skywalker

"Considering the fact that Islam is a disgrace to human kind, Christianity is a disgrace to everything in the universe, Judiasm is just one confusing mess, and the rest of em are all praying to aliens from outer space. I say we have a religion where the only rule is that you know how to roll a Garcia Vega. Ya know? And if I can't be god, can I be one of the people who gets to make hypocritical rules and then not follow them like them stinking Catholics? Please, pretty please, with the Annunaki on top?" -ish_skywalker

"That 112 song that says "If you're sexy and you know it clap your hands (clap, clap). If you're sexy and you know it clap your hands (clap, clap). If you're sexy and you know it and you really want to show it...if you're sexy and you know it clap your hands (clap, clap)." This TRULY sucks. I shut it off after that, but i'm still wondering if the second verse says "if you're sexy and you know it stomp your feet (stomp, stomp)". This is an all time low for music, period. It makes me wish 2 of those guys from 112 would die so they could be called 110." -NazDak

"nah man, that's suicide...jumping off bridge is suicide, blowing your brains out is suicide...letting wyclef handle your album 100% like is suicide...that...is stupid suicide...lol but there lurks a dark humor about getting your ass beat by gang members..." PlanetInfinite


THIS IS SOME FUNNY SHIT!

What does "Immanent" mean?

i mean for real, what are you gonna do? seriously!

somebody tell me...

But DAMN!

"Sometimes you have to laugh to keep from crying"- Langston Hughes

:7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7

squinting and slightly frowning, forming mouth to say "what the fuck?" -classic shit.

But please read the initial post.

Thank you.

PEace
Solarus

***Words of Wisdom***

"Every time you rise from your sleeping state, you have been reincarnated. Every time you recover from a bad experience, you have been reincarnated. Every time you have been given a new lease on life, you have been reincarnated. Every time you breath in and out, take in the fresh breath of life and feel the divine intelligence flowing in and around you, you have been reincarnated."- Mfundishi Bakari

On "love":

"I am in love everyday, whether I am with someone or not. Why? All love is based on a search for spirit. For me love is timeless, transcendent, peaceful, freeing, soul-based, unifying, and enhanced evolution. This is the basis of my activism."- Nettrice, the embodiment of Oshun

"Since we all make up the rules as we go along, love can mean many different things to many different people. But, for me love is a total commitment to understanding that is not limited to just people but is open to the totality of life. As long as we approach love from a fear based mentality and perceive it through veils of guardedness and anxiety, it will always be restricted by our fears."- Mfundishi Bakari

you need some yang! what's happening to you? :)

(((((PEACE)))))
____________________________________________________________
“One who has not studied the facts has no place in a discussion.” -Mao Zedong

"God is good, me love God, God love me. God will take care of me, Jesus love me too, I will repent all my sins and give me to Jesus, Jesus will take me to heaven with him. Jesus loves me, me good. Me give money to church, church good. Pastor needs new car, Jesus loves me, Jesus loves pastor. Jesus is God, jesus is son of God, Jesus is father of god, me confused now. Me go to sleep now, me need nap, me brain tired. -Christians"
-ish_skywalker

"Considering the fact that Islam is a disgrace to human kind, Christianity is a disgrace to everything in the universe, Judiasm is just one confusing mess, and the rest of em are all praying to aliens from outer space. I say we have a religion where the only rule is that you know how to roll a Garcia Vega. Ya know? And if I can't be god, can I be one of the people who gets to make hypocritical rules and then not follow them like them stinking Catholics? Please, pretty please, with the Annunaki on top?" -ish_skywalker

"That 112 song that says "If you're sexy and you know it clap your hands (clap, clap). If you're sexy and you know it clap your hands (clap, clap). If you're sexy and you know it and you really want to show it...if you're sexy and you know it clap your hands (clap, clap)." This TRULY sucks. I shut it off after that, but i'm still wondering if the second verse says "if you're sexy and you know it stomp your feet (stomp, stomp)". This is an all time low for music, period. It makes me wish 2 of those guys from 112 would die so they could be called 110." -NazDak

"nah man, that's suicide...jumping off bridge is suicide, blowing your brains out is suicide...letting wyclef handle your album 100% like is suicide...that...is stupid suicide...lol but there lurks a dark humor about getting your ass beat by gang members..." PlanetInfinite


THIS IS SOME FUNNY SHIT!

HTP
(Christianity and Afraka PT 3 of 3)

Across the waters, into the “New” World, also referred to as the “Americas,” Afrakans entered to lose all traces of their culture. Upon arriving they were no longer Afrakan, just “West Indian,” “Caribbean,” “Hispanic” and “African American,” no correction, just “American.” Lost were their traditions and knowledge of who they were. Lost were all of their cultural connections to the Yoruba, Ibgo, Akan, Kongo, Fulani, Wolof, Mende, Temne, etc. Lost and gone forever…

Unfortunately this is an erroneous sentiment expressed and believed by many people. Afrakans that crossed the Middle Passage were still Afrakan when they reached, and their culture was not lost, but rather, infused, altered and sadly in some cases, was replaced. Culture is medium through which all aspects of life are filtered. Culture is not an independent variable in one’s life comparable to gender, race, or class. Although this is controversial topic itself among the scholastic world, the “culture-as-a-medium” construct is one of the underlying assumptions for this entire thread (and in fact has been for EVERYTHING that I have EVER written).

A theologian (whose name I can’t remember at the moment), referred commented that the general religious differences between African- Americans and African Caribbeans/Latinos could be categorized as: the “Death of the Gods” vs. the “Gods in Exile,” respectively. His point was that for African-Americans, the African spiritual beliefs that they possessed were largely supplanted with newfound Christian beliefs whereas Africans in the Caribbean and Latin America still possessed African spiritual beliefs but in an altered form, infused with Christianity and other aspects of European culture.

One point that needs to be made is concept of “enculturation:”

: the process by which an individual learns the traditional content of a culture and assimilates its practices and values

This process occurs through the institutions that a given society possesses. The educational system, religious institutions, media (communications) and other social institutions all play a role in enculturating its own citizens and/or foreigners. The enculturation process in the United States is largely responsible for the supposed “death of the gods.” Being under the daily scrutiny of Europeans, added with the fact that the use of Afrakan names, languages, customs and other cultural characteristics were largely discouraged, prohibited and in some cases legally outlawed (see Virginia no drumming laws), Afrakan were more effectively enculturated into a Western cultural ethos, specifically, “American.” However, the number of small number of Afrakans compared to the number of Europeans is not the sole reason for the greater enculturation of Afrakans in America versus the West Indies. The main reason is the effectiveness of the institutions. If we were to fast forward to the present we can see that the effectiveness of enculturation into a Western cultural ethos is far greater because of the larger availability of schools and the dominance of Western culture in the media for West Indians and to a great extent continental Afrakans.*Afrakan rituals were often outlawed in the Caribbean but because of the few number of Europeans, they were able to practice their rituals in secrecy.

Thus looking at the development of the “gods in exile”- syncretistic religions in the West Indies/Latin America, we find the “God is IMMANENT” concept still shining through. Some of the most popular belief systems that we find are: Voodoo-Haiti, Candomble-Brazil, Pocomania-Jamaica, Santeria-Cuba. Each of these systems vary on the amount of Christian infusion but they still hold the “God is IMMANENT” concept. “Pocomania” of all of the systems listed , possesses more of an Christian/European influence which is due to the persistence and effectiveness of the British enculturational processes.

Voodoo, Santeria, and Candomble have their origins mostly from the Yoruba of West Afraka as one can find the persistence of Yoruba “deities” throughout the Caribbean and Latin America. Specifically the deity, “Shango,” is probably the most prevalent deity throughout the Americas. However one must realize that "deities" or "orishas" (called "loas" in Haiti and "orichus" in Cuba) are only forces/energies, parts of the whole, that can be imbibed when necessary.

The inclusiveness of the Afrakan conceptual system (deriving from the “God is IMMANENT” concept) enabled Afrakan “gods” to remain and for Christian gods and saints to be included. Jesus, the Trinity and Christian saints were not dismissed as untrue or abhorrent. In fact Afrakans were often boggled at reason for the European emphasis on believing only in “HIM.” Not accepting particular customs is one thing but totally negating “deities” is another.

The negation of Afrakan "deities" is expected when one considers in emphasis on being the ONLY way to God, separation from God, and God of total "goodness," thus separating good from evil. This however is not so within any Afrakan tradition as stated before. Especially the concept of "good vs. evil." This also is not an Afrakan concept. If "God is IMMANENT," how can God NOT be "evil?" But the more prolific question is, "what IS evil?" Christian theologians often compare the orisha, Eshu (AKA Elegba, Echu <-in Cuba, Elegbara, Legba<- in Haiti)with the Devil because of Eshu's mischievous acts. In fact the Bible, translated into the Yoruba language, replaces "satan" with "Eshu." This is completely in error. In conclusion, I'll end with a quote from Janheinz Jahn, who said it best:

"To identify Eshu with evil is to misunderstand the basic principles of Yoruba philosophy. Unlike the European, the Yoruba does not conceive the world as a conflict between good and evil, light and darkness, God and devil. He is realistic and recognizes that all forces-even divin forces- have destructive as well as constructive possiblities. The secret of life, then and the purpose of orisha worship is to establish a constructive relationship with these powers."


PEace
Solarus

Further Reading:
_Muntu_ by Janheinz Jahn
"Culture in Development" by Michael Cole
_Olodumare:God in Yoruba Belief_ E. Bolaji Idowu

***Words of Wisdom***

"Every time you rise from your sleeping state, you have been reincarnated. Every time you recover from a bad experience, you have been reincarnated. Every time you have been given a new lease on life, you have been reincarnated. Every time you breath in and out, take in the fresh breath of life and feel the divine intelligence flowing in and around you, you have been reincarnated."- Mfundishi Bakari

On "love":

"I am in love everyday, whether I am with someone or not. Why? All love is based on a search for spirit. For me love is timeless, transcendent, peaceful, freeing, soul-based, unifying, and enhanced evolution. This is the basis of my activism."- Nettrice, the embodiment of Oshun

"Since we all make up the rules as we go along, love can mean many different things to many different people. But, for me love is a total commitment to understanding that is not limited to just people but is open to the totality of life. As long as we approach love from a fear based mentality and perceive it through veils of guardedness and anxiety, it will always be restricted by our fears."- Mfundishi Bakari

why'd i have to find this so late in the day? now i'm too fried to answer properly...

see y'all in the morning :)




~~~SPITFIRE: AUGUST 23, 2001~~~
HipHop. Old school style. In Full Effect. Want Info? Email: carameldom@hotmail.com

"to get inside this head of mine/would take a monkey wrench/and a lot of wine" ~~Res

HTP

In organized religions and all spiritual systems, there exist certain actions called “rituals.”

What is the purpose of the ritual?
Is the purpose clearly conveyed when performing the ritual?
Does the ritual actually reinforce the desired behavior?

I would argue that these are the questions one must ask when analyzing the effectiveness and utility of ANY ritual. I stress “ANY” because rituals are found in every aspect of life. Brushing one’s teeth every morning can be a ritual. Going a certain way to work or school can be a ritual. Rituals are abundant in ALL life (including non-human). Let’s look at the definition for “ritual”:

1 : the established form for a ceremony; specifically : the order of words prescribed for a religious ceremony
2 a : ritual observance; specifically : a system of rites b : a ceremonial act or action c : a customarily repeated often formal act or series of acts

“A customarily repeated often formal act or series of acts,” is the definition that I am using in this piece.

The master of any craft understands the benefit of rituals as they are the only way to become adept at a certain craft. Repetition allows one hone one skills and input the repeated action into one’s subconscious thus making the action or information, “second nature.” See here: http://www.okayplayer.com/dcforum/DCForumID1/3249.html

Rituals (theoretically) are to do the same thing within religious and spiritual systems. I say “theoretically” because this does not always happen. The goals of any system and the desired forms of behavior are reinforced by rituals. Problematic rituals are usually the result of a loss of meaning and effectiveness of the desired goal that it is supposed to be reinforced within the system. One could also argue that problematic rituals are the reflection of a larger problematic system, but that is another subject for another day.

Using the questions posed at the beginning of this post we will analyze a set of Afrakan rituals as told by Dogon sage, Ogotemmeli to French anthropologist, Marcel Griuale in Coversations with Ogotemmeli. We will also look to see how the “God is IMMANENT” concept is conveyed through the prescribed rituals. The rituals that we analyze are those concerning a very controversial aspect of many traditional Afrakan customs, “animal sacrifice.”

What is the purpose of the ritual?

“The object was rather to create a movement of forces within a circuit composed of the sacrificer, the victim, altar and the power invoked. In the case of the ordinary service of a power like the Nommo, Son of God, or of the God Amma himself, the mechanism could not be clearly seen…’

‘The effect of every sacrifice,’ he said,’ is the same as that of the sacrifice to Lebe. First one feeds and strengthens oneself, and then, by means of the Word, gives strength and life to all men…’

‘The altar gives something to a man, and part of what he has received he passes on to others,’ said Ogotemmeli. ’A small part of the sacrifice is for oneself, but the rest is for others. The forces released enter into the man, pass through him and out again, and so it is for all…’ As each man gives to all the rest, so he also receives from all. A perpetual exchange goes on between men, an unceasing movement of invisible currents…’The Word,’ said Ogotemmeli,”is for everyone in this world; it must come and go and be interchanged for it is good to give and to receive the forces of life.’”

We can see the “God is IMMANENT” concept clearly reverberating in this passage. Each aspect of the ritual is a force. The power that is invoked ultimately, stems from the movement of all of these forces in cohesion with one another. The sacrifice is not for the “worship” of some particular thing, object or “God” but rather, a unification of “things” to empower oneself and all things. The only “worship” that occurs is the appreciation for the IMMANENCY of IT (Amma) and the Word (Nommo) that flows through and within all things.

As for these:

Is the purpose clearly conveyed by performing the ritual?
Does the ritual actually reinforce some form of desired behavior of prescribed by the system the system?

We cannot truly answer these two questions unless we do a systematic analysis of Dogon culture and its people over a period of time to see if they ideals are truly being understood and expressed. Therefore these questions will have to be left unanswered.

Rituals can be beneficial to the system when they fulfill their purpose. However when they become meaningless and do not fulfill their purpose then they are no longer of use. Instead they have just become dogmatic and cause adherents of a particular system to not follow or fulfill the goals of the system. Instead one finds the adherent to consistently be contradictory to the principles of the system, whilst the system remains nothing more than a novelty. Repetition is important, but MEANING is fundamental.

PEace
Solarus

Further Readings:
Conversations with Ogotemmeli by Marcel Griaule


***Words of Wisdom***

"Every time you rise from your sleeping state, you have been reincarnated. Every time you recover from a bad experience, you have been reincarnated. Every time you have been given a new lease on life, you have been reincarnated. Every time you breath in and out, take in the fresh breath of life and feel the divine intelligence flowing in and around you, you have been reincarnated."- Mfundishi Bakari

On "love":

"I am in love everyday, whether I am with someone or not. Why? All love is based on a search for spirit. For me love is timeless, transcendent, peaceful, freeing, soul-based, unifying, and enhanced evolution. This is the basis of my activism."- Nettrice, the embodiment of Oshun

"Since we all make up the rules as we go along, love can mean many different things to many different people. But, for me love is a total commitment to understanding that is not limited to just people but is open to the totality of life. As long as we approach love from a fear based mentality and perceive it through veils of guardedness and anxiety, it will always be restricted by our fears."- Mfundishi Bakari

Of a segment I saw on a tv newsmagazine a few weeks ago...it was about people w/ religious-based obsessive compulsive disorder. And a doctor stated that most of the people with this disorder were Catholic. Anyone who's Catholic (or knows one) has seen the seemingly endless procession of rituals in the .

It's interesting (and saddening) how those things can lose meaning over time and become just another part of a service when they are supposed to be enriching you as a person and bringing you closer to Spirit.




~~~SPITFIRE: AUGUST 23, 2001~~~
HipHop. Old school style. In Full Effect. Want Info? Email: carameldom@hotmail.com

"to get inside this head of mine/would take a monkey wrench/and a lot of wine" ~~Res

Stay ^^^^

This is a good thread, Solarus. Very informative.


peace.


"Next to God we are indebted to Afrikan women, first for
giving us life and secondly for making that life worth
living." -author unknown

"Don't Hate the PLAYA Boy...hate the GAME," Granddad Freeman of the Boondocks(7-11-99)

*Twenty-three percent of women are "autoerotic singles" — they prefer to achieve sexual satisfaction alone(source-bet.com)

*If U have won a Grammy, one of two things are at play: 1. Your shit is TIGHT
2. U are white
-(Me)

"'Cuz U answer the phone 'peace' that means U not a freak?"-The Questions(c) Common

and read it on the subway. i hate readin too much from computer screens.
some of this stuff i've known for a while now(either through books or through oral tradition) but some of this stuff is new. at least the in approach but sometimes in content too.
what books are you using(in addition to intuition of course)?
solarus, check your inbox.
SIGNATURE STARTS YONDER
"I'm not looking...forward to seeing
him"- Snoop on Suge's release.
understatement of the year :-)
**************************
:-)NE LOVE/N:-(LOVE
(THE C:PHICE IS Y:9URS)
**************************
The emoticon as 'O' symbol is a
registered trademark of dafriquan.
No biting without written permission.
*************************

I have some question. I'm not trying to start a debate or anything but I'm curious.

1) Is this the God inwhich you believe in?

2) If so why? Give me some plusible evidence at your convience.

3) How does this God handle evil?

4) And if you don't believe in this God then why do the Afrikan's believe in this God?

HTP

>1) Is this the God in which
>you believe in?

Do I believe that God is IMMANENT and TRANSCENDENT? Yes.

>
>2) If so why? Give me
>some plusible evidence at your
>convience.

Please clarify this question. What is "plausible evidence?"


>3) How does this God handle
>evil?

What is "evil?" I can tell by the way in which you are asking these questions that you are conceiving "God" from the confines of your Christian perspective.

Examples:

1) You said "this God," where "this" implies specifity. To specify "God" for all Afrakans is erroneous. From the beginning, I implied that "God is IMMANENT..." was only a "concept" not any particular "diety." In comparison I used the "God is SEPARATE from His creations" - concept found among "Western" religions (eg. Judaism,Christianity, Islam, ancient Greek religion, etc.). Correct if I am wrong but "Gods" within these religions are not all the same. Is Jehovah the same as Allah to you? Or is Allah the same as Zeus?

Afrakans all the Divine by different names and may also possess varying conceptions of IT. I even pointed this out in the post "Diversity in ONE (cont.)" :

"In closing, let me say that two Akan philosophers that I referenced, Kwasi Wiredu and Kwame Gyeke, both agree on the Akan consensus of “two heads are better than one.” This statement implies that no one’s explanation is taken as final. "

Even among one group there ideas varied, which is acceptable within Afrakan theology as explained here:

From "Diversity in ONE"
"One of the major effects of the “God is IMMANENT” concept, is “diversity.” “Diversity” in the sense that one’s concept of the divine and the universe INCLUSIVE versus being mutually EXCLUSIVE. If God is truly IMMANENT and TRANSCENDENT then any conception of IT can POTENTIALLY be valid. *POTENTIALLY meaning that if the conception of “God” does not further establish an adequate order and structure for the optimal survival for its adherents then it is useless. This diversity causes little if not any emphasis on the either-or dichotomy in the conception of ideas that is found in Western thought. Thus right or wrong is not defined by some unchanging abstract source, but rather it is defined by the consensus of the group. This simple but pivotal point can be seen in a number of discrepancies, misconceptions, and misunderstandings held between Western and Afrakan concepts."


2)You asked for "plausible evidence." Let me try and discern what this means:

Main Entry: plau·si·ble
Pronunciation: 'plo-z&-b&l
Function: adjective
Etymology: Latin plausibilis worthy of applause, from plausus, past participle of plaudere
Date: 1565
1 : superficially fair, reasonable, or valuable but often specious <a plausible pretext>
2 : superficially pleasing or persuasive <a swindler..., then a quack, then a smooth, plausible gentleman -- R. W. Emerson>
3 : appearing worthy of belief <the argument was both powerful and plausible>

Main Entry: 1ev·i·dence
Pronunciation: 'e-v&-d&n(t)s, -v&-"den(t)s
Function: noun
Date: 14th century
1 a : an outward sign : INDICATION b : something that furnishes proof : TESTIMONY; specifically : something legally submitted to a tribunal to ascertain the truth of a matter
2 : one who bears witness; especially : one who voluntarily confesses a crime and testifies for the prosecution against his accomplices

So I am interpreting that you mean "Show me something that furnishes proof that is worthy to believe in, concerning your assertion that God is IMMANENT and TRANSCENDENT."

Well according to my (Afrakan) standards "suitable" proof (each post has been designed to show how this concept resides within various Afrakan belief systems) has already been submitted throughout this entire post. To the Afrakan, proof is determined by functionability for the group and whether or not the group accepts it. Because there is no either/or dichotomy in thinking, then any answer is potentially suitable as long as it is functional, viable and acceptable to the group's standards and survival.

Now assuming that you are a Christian stemming from a Western cultural ethos, thereby subjected to either/or dichotomy and "God is SEPARATE"-concept, I would then estimate that "plausible evidence" to you concerning "God is IMMANENT...", would be documentation of IT speaking these words to the people and then being transcribed in some fashion. Well according to the Afrakan oral tradition, there is such a story that might be of value. It was transcribed and translated from Yoruba by Awotunde Ifaseeyin Karade. However realize that this is only ONE example from the Ifa tradition of the Yoruba and several more exist around the continent. Go here: http://www.okayplayer.com/dcforum/DCForumID1/3291.html#27

3) You asked about "evil." If you read all of the posts then you would have some idea of how at least ONE particular Afrakan tradition views "evil."

From "Afrakan in the New World":
"To identify Eshu with evil is to misunderstand the basic principles of Yoruba philosophy. Unlike the European, the Yoruba does not conceive the world as a conflict between good and evil, light and darkness, God and devil. He is realistic and recognizes that all forces-even divine forces- have destructive as well as constructive possiblities. The secret of life, then and the purpose of orisha worship is to establish a constructive relationship with these powers."

I KNOW you are using your own concept of "evil" and superimposing it onto an Afrakan theological/philsophical perspective within your question. That can't be done as you will only be confused and beguiled and no serious discussion or understanding can be grasped. "How God handles evil" does not even make sense to me.

>4) And if you don't believe
>in this God then why
>do the Afrikan's
>believe in this God?

See my above answer.


PEace
Solarus

***Words of Wisdom***

"Every time you rise from your sleeping state, you have been reincarnated. Every time you recover from a bad experience, you have been reincarnated. Every time you have been given a new lease on life, you have been reincarnated. Every time you breath in and out, take in the fresh breath of life and feel the divine intelligence flowing in and around you, you have been reincarnated."- Mfundishi Bakari

On "love":

"I am in love everyday, whether I am with someone or not. Why? All love is based on a search for spirit. For me love is timeless, transcendent, peaceful, freeing, soul-based, unifying, and enhanced evolution. This is the basis of my activism."- Nettrice, the embodiment of Oshun

"Since we all make up the rules as we go along, love can mean many different things to many different people. But, for me love is a total commitment to understanding that is not limited to just people but is open to the totality of life. As long as we approach love from a fear based mentality and perceive it through veils of guardedness and anxiety, it will always be restricted by our fears."- Mfundishi Bakari

almost exactly what i wrote to you concerneing his question!

good work

I just wanted to sum that up (I'm bored...can't go downtown...long story...ahem):

You can't bring Christianity up in this. This is a mistake folks have been making since the beginning of time. If you can't step out of your frame of reference to see where he's coming from, you'll never understand this or any other African concept of "God."

Period.

In order to understand the God of others, you have to forget the God of the Bible.




~~~SPITFIRE: AUGUST 23, 2001~~~
HipHop. Old school style. In Full Effect. Want Info? Email: carameldom@hotmail.com

"to get inside this head of mine/would take a monkey wrench/and a lot of wine" ~~Res

and this is why the concepts of religion and spirituality i see/hear everyday make it so i can't just speak on it to people. the already adhered to ideas prevent simple discussion.

when people stick their own belief systems onto cultures so different and far removed from their own...like, these folks don't deal in Christ and "original sin," so you can't ask those questions & then condemn them for not answering correctly...

it's just as sad when people see voodoo and Ifa as "demonic" when it's a part of their heritage; a link to their past. not that they have to practice it, but to condemn, fear and hate it...that's painful to me.


~~~SPITFIRE: AUGUST 23, 2001~~~
HipHop. Old school style. In Full Effect. Want Info? Email: carameldom@hotmail.com

"to get inside this head of mine/would take a monkey wrench/and a lot of wine" ~~Res

>when people stick their own belief
>systems onto cultures so different
>and far removed from their
>own...like, these folks don't deal
>in Christ and "original sin,"
>so you can't ask those
>questions & then condemn them
>for not answering correctly...

Response: Actually the scriptures make it clear all men are without excuse even those living in the most remote island. Actually i didn't even stick my beliefs on anybody, I've done one post since I've been here, and I might do one later on depending on how I feel. By the way if you have a belief you should be able to tell someone else "why" you believe it.
>
>it's just as sad when people
>see voodoo and Ifa as
>"demonic" when it's a part
>of their heritage; a link
>to their past. not that
>they have to practice it,
>but to condemn, fear and
>hate it...that's painful to me.

Response: Just because it's part of there heritage does not make it correct. This is one of the arguments that I posted on my evidence for God post that there is an objective moral law made by an objective law giver.
>
>
>

for proving my point so well...


>Response: Actually the scriptures make it
>clear all men are without
>excuse even those living in
>the most remote island. Actually
>i didn't even stick my
>beliefs on anybody,

I didn't say that you put your beliefs on anyone on a personal level. My point was that your error is in interpreting African religious beliefs from a Christian standpoint. You can't do that & learn from their theology. You have to look at their religion from their historical and cultural standpoint and evaluate it from there. You can't throw YOUR scriptures into it. And if you can't separate the two, then IMO you shouldn't try to have this discussion. This attitude would be fine if you were comparing Christianity to African theology or explaining Christian scriptures, but the point of this post is to detail an African-centered belief system.



>Response: Just because it's part of
>there heritage does not make
>it correct. This is one
>of the arguments that I
>posted on my evidence for
>God post that there is
>an objective moral law made
>by an objective law giver.

Again, these are your CHRISITIAN beliefs interfering with an interpretation of a totally different culture/religion. You have to step outside your box and see why this system makes more sense to them vs. Christianity. Why/How can Christianity make sense to you? Part of that acceptance is the culture you were raised in. If you were raised in Africa or India or someplace else other than America or Europe, Christianity might not be as clear cut as you see it now.

Why do you think it took so long for Christianity and Islam to penetrate Africa? And when it did, it was more so economic or social pressures that caused the change, not a true spiritual ephiphany/revelation. Many of those cultures retained (and still do) their traditional beliefs while giving lip service to the "new" religions.




~~~SPITFIRE: AUGUST 23, 2001~~~
HipHop. Old school style. In Full Effect. Want Info? Email: carameldom@hotmail.com

"to get inside this head of mine/would take a monkey wrench/and a lot of wine" ~~Res

>for proving my point so well...


Response: How so?
>
>
>
>I didn't say that you put
>your beliefs on anyone on
>a personal level. My point
>was that your error is
>in interpreting African religious beliefs
>from a Christian standpoint.


Response: Actually I'm not. I'm just trying to see why Africans believe this that's all.

You
>can't do that & learn
>from their theology. You have
>to look at their religion
>from their historical and cultural
>standpoint and evaluate it from
>there. You can't throw YOUR
>scriptures into it. And if
>you can't separate the two,
>then IMO you shouldn't try
>to have this discussion. This
>attitude would be fine if
>you were comparing Christianity to
>African theology or explaining Christian
>scriptures, but the point of
>this post is to detail
>an African-centered belief system.

Response: Cool, but if I gave this same explaination for Christianity on the "Bible Question" post you would have killed me, what I think the problem is you think I am ready to attack this theology from a skeptic standpoint and thats not the case, I just want to know why people believe this?
>
>
>
>
>Again, these are your CHRISITIAN beliefs
>interfering with an interpretation of
>a totally different culture/religion.

Response: Must have misread your question, I thought you were saying Christians don't have an answer to the question about original sin for a person who never heard of Christ.

You
>have to step outside your
>box and see why this
>system makes more sense to
>them vs. Christianity. Why/How can
>Christianity make sense to you?
>Part of that acceptance is
>the culture you were raised
>in. If you were raised
>in Africa or India or
>someplace else other than America
>or Europe, Christianity might not
>be as clear cut as
>you see it now.

Response: maybe, maybe not. I'm a critical thinker by nature. I use to question Christianity alot, I mean with some really hard sceptism, you would have thought I was an unbeliever.
>
>Why do you think it took
>so long for Christianity and
>Islam to penetrate Africa? And
>when it did, it was
>more so economic or social
>pressures that caused the change,
>not a true spiritual ephiphany/revelation.
>Many of those cultures retained
>(and still do) their traditional
>beliefs while giving lip service
>to the "new" religions.

Response: Oh I know, but all I was asking is like I ask anybody is why do you believe this.

>Response: Actually I'm not. I'm just
>trying to see why Africans
>believe this that's all.

ok...I got that...but like I said, I was just agreeing w/ utamaroho at that point. I hadn't read your original question, nor was I ever dealing w/ it in any of my posts. I was just speaking generally on my observations of how you approached the issue.



>Response: Cool, but if I gave
>this same explaination for Christianity
>on the "Bible Question" post
>you would have killed me,

No, I wouldn't have. Because that would apply in the reverse situation as well. If I ask a question about Christianity, it's going to be because something doesn't make sense. I'm not going to say, "your God is a farce" simply because I don't get it. Not to say you did, but that's the kind of thinking I was warning against.

Christianity doesn't seem pragmatic to a lot of people. As I'm sure you've seen in responses to other posts. No, African religions don't have the written history and the prophetic references that the Bible does, but it does have a certain pragmatism and realism that can be difficult to find in Christianity.



>Response: Must have misread your question,
>I thought you were saying
>Christians don't have an answer
>to the question about original
>sin for a person who
>never heard of Christ.

That wasn't even an issue.




~~~SPITFIRE: AUGUST 23, 2001~~~
HipHop. Old school style. In Full Effect. Want Info? Email: carameldom@hotmail.com

"to get inside this head of mine/would take a monkey wrench/and a lot of wine" ~~Res

>and this is why the concepts
>of religion and spirituality i
>see/hear everyday make it so
>i can't just speak on
>it to people. the already
>adhered to ideas prevent simple
>discussion.

Response: I just want to see the proofs of this. That's all I have shown you the proofs of my God. Now let's see the proofs you have. This is not even an attack. What if your concept is the correct one and mind is wrong, don't you think you should reach out to me and help.

>I just wanted to sum that
>up (I'm bored...can't go downtown...long
>story...ahem):
>
>You can't bring Christianity up in
>this. This is a mistake
>folks have been making since
>the beginning of time. If
>you can't step out of
>your frame of reference to
>see where he's coming from,
>you'll never understand this or
>any other African concept of
>"God."

Response: Actually I didn't bring Christianity up in this, I just asked about the nature of this God. I'm looking for some objective proofs. For a reason for someone to believe in this thats all.

>
>In order to understand the God
>of others, you have to
>forget the God of the
>Bible.

Response: That's not true, if thats the case you have to forget other god's to study the God of the Bible.
>
>
>
>

>

>>In order to understand the God
>>of others, you have to
>>forget the God of the
>>Bible.
>
>Response: That's not true, if thats
>the case you have to
>forget other god's to study
>the God of the Bible.

Yes, you do have to forget other Gods to study the biblical one because that's what Christianity demands. Other faiths do not necessarily subscribe to that thinking.

But the point of that statement was that you *personally* may never get the "objective" proof you need if you keep bouncing the information you're given off the Bible...unless that's your goal.

And for the record, I was just summarizing & responding to Solarus' statement; I hadn't read your original statement when I wrote that.



~~~SPITFIRE: AUGUST 23, 2001~~~
HipHop. Old school style. In Full Effect. Want Info? Email: carameldom@hotmail.com

"to get inside this head of mine/would take a monkey wrench/and a lot of wine" ~~Res

>Yes, you do have to forget
>other Gods to study the
>biblical one because that's what
>Christianity demands. Other faiths do
>not necessarily subscribe to that
>thinking.


Response: How do you figure Christianity says forget about those other gods, it say don't worship those other gods because Yahweh is the truth.

>But the point of that statement
>was that you *personally* may
>never get the "objective" proof
>you need if you keep
>bouncing the information you're given
>off the Bible...unless that's your
>goal.

Response: Give me some first then judge.
>
>And for the record, I was
>just summarizing & responding to
>Solarus' statement; I hadn't read
>your original statement when I
>wrote that.

Response: Understood.
>
>

>Response: How do you figure Christianity
>says forget about those other
>gods, it say don't worship
>those other gods because Yahweh
>is the truth.

Well, that depends on who you talk to. You try learning or even discussing some other religion in some Christian households and see what happens.




~~~SPITFIRE: AUGUST 23, 2001~~~
HipHop. Old school style. In Full Effect. Want Info? Email: carameldom@hotmail.com

"to get inside this head of mine/would take a monkey wrench/and a lot of wine" ~~Res

>HTP
>
>>1) Is this the God in which
>>you believe in?
>
>Do I believe that God is
>IMMANENT and TRANSCENDENT? Yes.

Response: Good.
>
>>
>>2) If so why? Give me
>>some plusible evidence at your
>>convience.
>
>Please clarify this question. What is
>"plausible evidence?"


Response: Inother words what are some objective proofs of the God you believe in. Like for the God of the bible I might use the cosmological argument of the teleological argument to prove the existance of God. What are some of yours? This way God doesn't become subjective.
>
>>3) How does this God handle
>>evil?
>
>What is "evil?" I can
>tell by the way in
>which you are asking these
>questions that you are conceiving
>"God" from the confines of
>your Christian perspective.

Response: Evil is not a substance but a corruption of the good substance that God made. Evil is like rust on a car, It is the lack of anything good. It exist only in another but not in itself.
>
>Examples:
>
>1) You said "this God,"
>where "this" implies specifity.
>To specify "God" for all
>Afrakans is erroneous. From
>the beginning, I implied that
>"God is IMMANENT..." was only
>a "concept" not any particular
>"diety." In comparison I
>used the "God is SEPARATE
>from His creations" - concept
>found among "Western" religions (eg.
>Judaism,Christianity, Islam, ancient Greek religion,
>etc.). Correct if I
>am wrong but "Gods" within
>these religions are not all
>the same. Is Jehovah
>the same as Allah to
>you? Or is Allah
>the same as Zeus?

Response: No God of the bible is not the God of Islam or Zues. However if God is immanent is only a concept and not a being then I guess this is subjective.
>
>Afrakans all the Divine by different
>names and may also possess
>varying conceptions of IT.
>I even pointed this out
>in the post "Diversity in
>ONE (cont.)" :

Response: No I didn't see that sight, I didn't come on this sight until "origins of Christianity". Actually I don't even read all of the post. I just look for the ones that look like it is talking about theology and even then I might miss it.
>
>"In closing, let me say that
>two Akan philosophers that I
>referenced, Kwasi Wiredu and Kwame
>Gyeke, both agree on the
>Akan consensus of “two heads
>are better than one.” This
>statement implies that no one’s
>explanation is taken as final.

Response: That was cool.
>
>Even among one group there ideas
>varied, which is acceptable within
>Afrakan theology as explained here:
>
>
>From "Diversity in ONE"
>"One of the major effects of
>the “God is IMMANENT” concept,
>is “diversity.” “Diversity” in the
>sense that one’s concept of
>the divine and the universe
>INCLUSIVE versus being mutually EXCLUSIVE.

Response: But that makes it subjective. If I have a concept of God and you have a concept of God then there is no objective reasoning to agree with either one of us. My view of God is objective.It's not my own reasoning

>If God is truly IMMANENT
>and TRANSCENDENT then any conception
>of IT can POTENTIALLY be
>valid. *POTENTIALLY meaning that if
>the conception of “God” does
>not further establish an adequate
>order and structure for the
>optimal survival for its adherents
>then it is useless.

Response: But whatever has potiential needs to be actualized or effected by another. And since God is the cause of all things there is nothing beyond him to actualize any potiential. Nor can God actualize his own potiential to exist, since this would mean he caused his own existance.

This
>diversity causes little if not
>any emphasis on the either-or
>dichotomy in the conception of
>ideas that is found in
>Western thought. Thus right or
>wrong is not defined by
>some unchanging abstract source, but
>rather it is defined by
>the consensus of the group.
>This simple but pivotal point
>can be seen in a
>number of discrepancies, misconceptions, and
>misunderstandings held between Western and
>Afrakan concepts."

Response: Yes, this is very insightful and I follow you, but I still need something objective.
>
>
>
>So I am interpreting that you
>mean "Show me something that
>furnishes proof that is worthy
>to believe in, concerning your
>assertion that God is IMMANENT
>and TRANSCENDENT."

Response: Correct
>
>Well according to my (Afrakan) standards
>"suitable" proof (each post has
>been designed to show how
>this concept resides within various
>Afrakan belief systems) has already
>been submitted throughout this entire
>post. To the Afrakan, proof
>is determined by functionability for
>the group and whether or
>not the group accepts it.
> Because there is no
>either/or dichotomy in thinking, then
>any answer is potentially suitable
>as long as it is
>functional, viable and acceptable to
>the group's standards and survival.

Response: Ok, I follow you.
>
>
>Now assuming that you are a
>Christian stemming from a Western
>cultural ethos, thereby subjected to
>either/or dichotomy and "God is
>SEPARATE"-concept, I would then estimate
>that "plausible evidence" to you
>concerning "God is IMMANENT...", would
>be documentation of IT speaking
>these words to the people
>and then being transcribed in
>some fashion. Well according
>to the Afrakan oral tradition,
>there is such a story
>that might be of value.
> It was transcribed and
>translated from Yoruba by
>Awotunde Ifaseeyin Karade. However
>realize that this is only
>ONE example from the Ifa
>tradition of the Yoruba and
>several more exist around the
>continent.



Go here: http://www.okayplayer.com/dcforum/DCForumID1/3291.html#27
>
>3) You asked about "evil."
>If you read all of
>the posts then you would
>have some idea of how
>at least ONE particular Afrakan
>tradition views "evil."

Response: That's my bad . I have not even touched what the others are saying I just read you initial obne and responded to that. I'll look at the rest in a sec.
>
>From "Afrakan in the New World":
>
>"To identify Eshu with evil is
>to misunderstand the basic principles
>of Yoruba philosophy. Unlike the
>European, the Yoruba does not
>conceive the world as a
>conflict between good and evil,
>light and darkness, God and
>devil. He is realistic and
>recognizes that all forces-even divine
>forces- have destructive as well
>as constructive possiblities. The secret
>of life, then and the
>purpose of orisha worship is
>to establish a constructive relationship
>with these powers."

Response: Ok, but I was talking about all of the evils in the world. You know suffering, sickness, is this God all good, is he mixed, just a description of what you were talking about (his nature).
>
>I KNOW you are using your
>own concept of "evil" and
>superimposing it onto an Afrakan
>theological/philsophical perspective within your question.
> That can't be done
>as you will only be
>confused and beguiled and no
>serious discussion or understanding can
>be grasped. "How God handles
>evil" does not even make
>sense to me.

Response: Ok, I get you, but if you can answer the question about evil in this world, and suffering, morals etc.
>

I can understand how moral issues and evil can seem cloudy when learning Afrikan thought while coming from a European perspective. Try reading post 31 for a beginning breakdown of spirituality in Afrikan thought on evil and proof. Solarus post is beautiful, one of the best I have read, please read though it entirely then post questions....

peace...

>I can understand how moral issues
>and evil can seem cloudy
>when learning Afrikan thought while
>coming from a European perspective.
>Try reading post 31 for
>a beginning breakdown of spirituality
>in Afrikan thought on evil
>and proof.

THAT'S what I've been tryin to frikin say all this time....

ugh....

thanks for stating that a different way. maybe it'll sink in... :)



~~~SPITFIRE: AUGUST 23, 2001~~~
HipHop. Old school style. In Full Effect. Want Info? Email: carameldom@hotmail.com

"to get inside this head of mine/would take a monkey wrench/and a lot of wine" ~~Res

that he doesnt know how to ask in an "afrikan" way.

.....and for yall to expect anything less than that from him, is expecting to much.

was it not explained how god and the world was viewed, yet he still asked the way he views god and the world?

he has to ask his own way to get an understanding, and if possible you should to answer him in the way that he asks to make him understand, if you want him to. dont be selfish like that.

its not about lowering your own standards. dont think about it like that. think about it as getting the goal of understanding accomplished. that is unless you dont want ppl to understand.

like when i asked some questions about afrika, "european" style, and nearly got my online neck broke. i said from that point, if this is the afrikan way of doing things, then i am not interested. and there was nothing but sincerity on my part in asking what i asked the way i asked. if i knew how to ask in an "afrikan" manner, i would have. but no one took the time to think about that, and use wisdom and understanding in that situation. some ppl screamed on me, and the rest were like "yeah, get'em!" not good at all.

listening is the key to thinking.
thinking is the key to understanding.
understanding is the key to practice.
practice is the key to nearing perfection.
nearing perfection is the ultimate goal.

if you are teaching, you expect something out of the students. when you guys were in college, didnt your instructor tell you what he expected out of you. well do the same when you assume the "teacher role" on okayplayer.

tell ppl when you ask questions, try not to think about it in this way, but use this way. and dont wait until they do what you dont want them to do to advise them. that will only frustrate you and you plans.

listening is the key to thinking.
thinking is the key to understanding.
understanding is the key to practice.
practice is the key to nearing perfection.
nearing perfection is the ultimate goal.

who is Prophet Muhammad -salla Allahu 'alaihi wa sallam (peace be upon him)? click here to read his biography entitled, "Ar-Raheeq Al-Makhtum" (The Sealed Nectar) :
http://www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/Books/SM_tsn/

Narrated Aisha (Prophet Muhammad's wife):
The Prophet used to offer prayer at night (for such a long time) that his feet used to crack. I said, "O Allah's Apostle! Why do you do it since Allah has forgiven you your faults of the past and those to follow?" He said, "Shouldn't I love to be a thankful slave (of Allah)?' When he became old, he prayed while sitting, but if he wanted to perform a bowing, he wound get up, recite (some other verses) and then perform the bowing.

subhaanakallahumma (Glory be to you, Oh Allah), wabihamdika (and I praise You). ashhadu anla ilaha illa anta (I bear witness that none has the right to be worshipped except You). astaghfiruka (I seek Your forgiveness), wa attuubu ilaika (and I turn to You in Repentance).

this is the internet which lacks personal interaction...

how can you (a teacher) see if your lessons have been understood when that understanding can only come when the lessons are lived? this is one MAIN opint in afrikan thought, TALK IS CHEAP! TALK WITHOUT ACTION IS EVEN CHEAPER! some lessons are taught and best learned through action and have little successful transmission in "talkng about them". when you can ONLY talk with a person you put yourself within the realm of that western context of ONLY talking, and this is detrimental to getting certain lessons learned. i can talk (and did talk) about doing a 40 day fast for a long time, but the action of self-dicipline and actually DOING it actually made it happen. wehn talking to osoclai who deals from a christian-centric perspective...

here is the qoute i was talking about:

On understanding Afrakan thought:
"it's like explaining astrophysics to a whino, the explanation can't be done like that. when people try to simplify it, they ask the other person to tailor the answers their cultural context. and trying to cater afrikan ideals to european understanding is a REAL sin."-utamaroho

>how can you (a teacher) see
>if your lessons have been
>understood when that understanding can
>only come when the lessons
>are lived?

......only applies when THE TEACHER has students who are TRYING TO IMPLEMENT the TEACHINGS that they HAVE LEARNED.

not when THE TEACHER has students who wish NOT TO IMPLEMENT the TEACHINGS that they HAVE LEARNED.

how many college courses did you HAVE TO TAKE, and had NO INTENTION of IMPLEMENTING THE LESSONS?

ALL KNOWLEDGE IS NOT IMPLEMENTED. AND SOME KNOWLEDGE CANNOT BE IMPLEMENTED.


who is Prophet Muhammad -salla Allahu 'alaihi wa sallam (peace be upon him)? click here to read his biography entitled, "Ar-Raheeq Al-Makhtum" (The Sealed Nectar) :
http://www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/Books/SM_tsn/

Narrated Aisha (Prophet Muhammad's wife):
The Prophet used to offer prayer at night (for such a long time) that his feet used to crack. I said, "O Allah's Apostle! Why do you do it since Allah has forgiven you your faults of the past and those to follow?" He said, "Shouldn't I love to be a thankful slave (of Allah)?' When he became old, he prayed while sitting, but if he wanted to perform a bowing, he wound get up, recite (some other verses) and then perform the bowing.

subhaanakallahumma (Glory be to you, Oh Allah), wabihamdika (and I praise You). ashhadu anla ilaha illa anta (I bear witness that none has the right to be worshipped except You). astaghfiruka (I seek Your forgiveness), wa attuubu ilaika (and I turn to You in Repentance).

>>how many college courses did you HAVE TO TAKE, and had NO INTENTION of IMPLEMENTING THE LESSONS?

this educational system is gross and thus no relation to it within ACTUALITY is needed...

plus, some understanding can ONLY be gained through practice. period. i couldn't teach you the benefits of being a vegetarian without showing you, so if you justed wanted to learn the booksmarts of being a vegan...you really wouldn't KNOW you would just have information. any knowledge on the afrikan lessons i've learned MUST be practiced or else you have half-knowledge, much like europeans who study afrikan ideology with this attitude...

in this culture you can learn and never apply the knowledge, in oter conceptual systems you MUST apply what you learn or else it is considered uselss.

http://www.okayplayer.com/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=3356&forum=DCForumID1&archive=yes#16

utamaroho asks me about ramadan......

"correct any incorrect information, but...
don't you only eat (feast) after the sun goes down right before bed...isn't that like the worst kind of eating time, and why is it called fasting? you still eat, and at night?!?

try a 42 day no solid anything juice fast...that's a fast, and a healthy one too."

and my answer: http://www.okayplayer.com/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=3356&forum=DCForumID1&archive=yes#19

">and why is it called
>fasting? you still eat, and
>at night?!?

the definition of the fast is set by Allah, not us. that is all that he requires of us. the main thing is to do without and abstain, like others who are not fortunate to even eat at all. putting self in the shoes of those less fortunate has grounding effects of the one who fasts correctly.

(this is the PERTINENT PART BELOW)

and its not just a fast from food and drink, but also from sins (not perfect), marrital sexual relations, vain talk, anything that is not useful, etc..........."

did he or did he not ask me w/o "non-islamic" thinking?

what he sees as a fast and what i see as a fast are two diff. things, and he came at me THE WAY HE UNDERSTOOD FAST IS, NOT THE WAY A FAST IS IN ISLAM.

did i cut him up for coming at me like that?
or did i see that he didnt understand, and then attempt to give him some understanding?

and his reply: http://www.okayplayer.com/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=3356&forum=DCForumID1&archive=yes#20

"thanks a lot

>>and its not just a fast from food and drink, but also from sins (not perfect), marrital sexual relations, vain talk, anything that is not useful, etc...........
hmmmmmmm...

anyways, i just got a burst of enlightenment upon reading this response."

END OF QUOTE.

>who is Prophet Muhammad -salla Allahu
>'alaihi wa sallam (peace be
>upon him)? click here to
>read his biography entitled, "Ar-Raheeq
>Al-Makhtum" (The Sealed Nectar) :
>
>http://www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/Books/SM_tsn/
>
>Narrated Aisha (Prophet Muhammad's wife):
>The Prophet used to offer prayer
>at night (for such a
>long time) that his feet
>used to crack. I said,
>"O Allah's Apostle! Why do
>you do it since Allah
>has forgiven you your faults
>of the past and those
>to follow?" He said, "Shouldn't
>I love to be a
>thankful slave (of Allah)?' When
>he became old, he prayed
>while sitting, but if he
>wanted to perform a bowing,
>he wound get up, recite
>(some other verses) and then
>perform the bowing.
>
>subhaanakallahumma (Glory be to you, Oh
>Allah), wabihamdika (and I praise
>You). ashhadu anla ilaha illa
>anta (I bear witness that
>none has the right to
>be worshipped except You). astaghfiruka
>(I seek Your forgiveness), wa
>attuubu ilaika (and I turn
>to You in Repentance).


who is Prophet Muhammad -salla Allahu 'alaihi wa sallam (peace be upon him)? click here to read his biography entitled, "Ar-Raheeq Al-Makhtum" (The Sealed Nectar) :
http://www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/Books/SM_tsn/

Narrated Aisha (Prophet Muhammad's wife):
The Prophet used to offer prayer at night (for such a long time) that his feet used to crack. I said, "O Allah's Apostle! Why do you do it since Allah has forgiven you your faults of the past and those to follow?" He said, "Shouldn't I love to be a thankful slave (of Allah)?' When he became old, he prayed while sitting, but if he wanted to perform a bowing, he wound get up, recite (some other verses) and then perform the bowing.

subhaanakallahumma (Glory be to you, Oh Allah), wabihamdika (and I praise You). ashhadu anla ilaha illa anta (I bear witness that none has the right to be worshipped except You). astaghfiruka (I seek Your forgiveness), wa attuubu ilaika (and I turn to You in Repentance).

Hujambo

Realize that the frustration, aggravation and any ill feelings stem from centuries of non-Afrakan cultures, Christianity AND Islam condemning Afrakan traditions and customs. In fact, the standpoint alone of Christianity and Islam automatically is diametrically OPPOSED (and not just "different") to Afrakan traditions.

In my response to him I didn't "attack" at all. I tried to show him WHAT he was doing and how that is detrimental when trying to understand the Afrakan standpoint. In general, the Afrakan would have an easier time understanding Islam and/or Christianity before a Muslim or Christian could understand any Afrakan spiritual system. The reason for this phenomena is that Afrakan traditions are theoretically inclusive and accepting of diverse ideas whereas there is no room for differentiation within Islam and Christianity.

As for the post you made, I personally don't remember I attacking you. I remember wanting to stay away for that post because I realized that I was going to have to "fit" into the mold that you were designing. The fact is a student must BREAK out of the mold themselves if they want to learn anything new. The teacher can appropriate the language to the best of his/her ability but to "fit" the information into a mold is not truly "teaching" the student. No of course this is different for a child as a child a little information to rest on so the teacher must appropriate more for the child. But this isn't the case for adults. EX. A new student joined my martial arts school (kiungo cha mkono). He was a 6 year Wing chun practitioner before joining. Needless to say his natural disposition to stances and movement is defined by his Wing chun experience. Mfundishi uses Wing chun terms to explain kiungo cha mkono movements and stances but ultimately it is the new student's responsibility to BREAK himself out of that mold, that is if he wants to be adept and the system. Once you have mastered a thing then you can appropriate it to oneself.

PEace
Solarus

***Words of Wisdom***

"Every time you rise from your sleeping state, you have been reincarnated. Every time you recover from a bad experience, you have been reincarnated. Every time you have been given a new lease on life, you have been reincarnated. Every time you breath in and out, take in the fresh breath of life and feel the divine intelligence flowing in and around you, you have been reincarnated."- Mfundishi Bakari

On "love":

"I am in love everyday, whether I am with someone or not. Why? All love is based on a search for spirit. For me love is timeless, transcendent, peaceful, freeing, soul-based, unifying, and enhanced evolution. This is the basis of my activism."- Nettrice, the embodiment of Oshun

"Since we all make up the rules as we go along, love can mean many different things to many different people. But, for me love is a total commitment to understanding that is not limited to just people but is open to the totality of life. As long as we approach love from a fear based mentality and perceive it through veils of guardedness and anxiety, it will always be restricted by our fears."- Mfundishi Bakari

but at the same time, I know that if I'm going to study/comment on another people's faith, I need to see it from their eyes as much as possible & not my own. And that's not to say I haven't been guilty of reading things and thinking, "what the hell is this???" but I try to remain conscious of that and then reevaluate it from another point of view as much as possible.

I am a student of history, so this is a skill I've had to use quite often. Others may not have that same reference point, and I understand that.

Still, one has to learn to step outside oneself to some degree if one is going to read posts like this and comment on them w/out resorting to "their God doesn't make sense" or "they're wrong & sinful" (I'm NOT QUOTING ANYONE verbatim here...don't start. just a trend I've seen on the boards). And often in his comments, I don't see Osoclasi comprehending that need. Everything comes up against Christianity for evaluation, and you can't understand concepts like this that way--hell, that's one of the religions that came into Africa trying to stomp this kind of thinking out.

That's where my frustration comes in.

But I do get your point, abduhu, & thank you for making it.



~~~SPITFIRE: AUGUST 23, 2001~~~
HipHop. Old school style. In Full Effect. Want Info? Email: carameldom@hotmail.com

"to get inside this head of mine/would take a monkey wrench/and a lot of wine" ~~Res

Akwaaba

Main Entry: con·cept
Pronunciation: 'kän-"sept
Function: noun
Etymology: Latin conceptum, neuter of conceptus, past participle of concipere to conceive -- more at CONCEIVE
Date: 1556
1 : something conceived in the mind : THOUGHT, NOTION
2 : an abstract or generic idea generalized from particular instances
synonym see IDEA

Yes "God is IMMANENT" is a concept. Yes it is subjective. No "God is IMMANENT" is not the NAME of ANY particular Afrakan "diety". Here are some names if that is what you want, Olodumare, Onyame, Amma,etc.

YHWH, Christ, Holy Spirit are the names that I suppose you call your understanding of the Most High. "God is separate from His creations" is a concept that you prescribe to and yes it is also subjective.

These two concepts "God is IMMANENT" and "God is separate from His creations" are both ways of understanding the Creator of all things. What you must understand is that these are PIVOTAL points as they fashion the way that the Creator is discussed, understood, and worshipped.

And one more thing

>>
>>Afrakans all the Divine by different
>>names and may also possess
>>varying conceptions of IT.
>>I even pointed this out
>>in the post "Diversity in
>>ONE (cont.)" :

>Response: No I didn't see that
>sight, I didn't come on
>this sight until "origins of
>Christianity". Actually I don't even
>read all of the post.
>I just look for the
>ones that look like it
>is talking about theology and
>even then I might miss
>it.

The post i was referring to is within this thread.


PEace
Solarus

***Words of Wisdom***

"Every time you rise from your sleeping state, you have been reincarnated. Every time you recover from a bad experience, you have been reincarnated. Every time you have been given a new lease on life, you have been reincarnated. Every time you breath in and out, take in the fresh breath of life and feel the divine intelligence flowing in and around you, you have been reincarnated."- Mfundishi Bakari

On "love":

"I am in love everyday, whether I am with someone or not. Why? All love is based on a search for spirit. For me love is timeless, transcendent, peaceful, freeing, soul-based, unifying, and enhanced evolution. This is the basis of my activism."- Nettrice, the embodiment of Oshun

"Since we all make up the rules as we go along, love can mean many different things to many different people. But, for me love is a total commitment to understanding that is not limited to just people but is open to the totality of life. As long as we approach love from a fear based mentality and perceive it through veils of guardedness and anxiety, it will always be restricted by our fears."- Mfundishi Bakari

>Akwaaba
>
>
>Yes "God is IMMANENT" is a
>concept. Yes it is subjective.
>No "God is IMMANENT" is
>not the NAME of ANY
>particular Afrakan "diety". Here
>are some names if that
>is what you want, Olodumare,
>Onyame, Amma,etc.

Response: Ok that's all I was asking why do you believe this. So it's subjective to the person or tribe.
>
>YHWH, Christ, Holy Spirit are the
>names that I suppose you
>call your understanding of the
>Most High. "God is
>separate from His creations" is
>a concept that you prescribe
>to and yes it is
>also subjective.

Response: Well you know I'm going to disagree with this one. No it's objective because the concept of God is not personal. It comes from an objective source "scripture" so Yahweh is the truth whether I believe it or not.
>
>These two concepts "God is IMMANENT"
>and "God is separate from
>His creations" are both ways
>of understanding the Creator of
>all things. What you
>must understand is that these
>are PIVOTAL points as they
>fashion the way that the
>Creator is discussed, understood, and
>worshipped.

Response: Ok I follow you so far.

>The post i was referring to
>is within this thread.

Response: Oh ok.
>

Akwaaba

>>YHWH, Christ, Holy Spirit are the
>>names that I suppose you
>>call your understanding of the
>>Most High. "God is
>>separate from His creations" is
>>a concept that you prescribe
>>to and yes it is
>>also subjective.
>
>Response: Well you know I'm going
>to disagree with this one.
>No it's objective because the
>concept of God is not
>personal. It comes from an
>objective source "scripture" so Yahweh
>is the truth whether I
>believe it or not.

First let me make clear that the CONCEPT of "God is separate from His creations" is SUBJECTIVE. The scripture that you uphold is SUBJECTIVE. The Torah is subjective to Jews, the Bible is subjective to Christians, and the Quran is subjective to Muslims. The fact remains that the writers of each of these works SAY they were either inspired by "God" to write it or they are just repeating "God's words." This CANNOT BE PROVEN. (sidenote: If you want to "try" to prove it please do so on another post and just refer me to it. this goes for anyone)

Prove that Adam and Eve were the first man and woman on the planet. Everyone has there own creation story so why is the hebrew story of anymore importance? Prove the Jews were actually in capitivty in KMT (Egypt). YOU CAN'T. The only objectivity of the scripture is that those who hold power ASSUME that the scripture is objective.

The scripture is the truth TO YOU. This is fine. However like i said you won't understand Afrakan culture whatsoever as long as you maintain this perspective.

With this defintion of "objectivity" the Bible can NEVER be "objective":

3 a : expressing or dealing with facts or conditions as perceived without distortion by personal feelings, prejudices, or interpretations <objective art> <an objective history of the war> <an objective judgment> b of a test :

Is not the entire old Testament written from the perspective of the Hebrews thus villifying any nation or people who may have opposed them? Were not there customs of other people viewed as evil or abhorrent? So are you saying that this perspective is "objective" because Hebrews were the "chosen" people of YHWH? How do I know that? Only the words of Hebrews tell me that they were the "chosen" people. But this is not subjective.

Come on now I know you are intelligent.

PEace
Solarus

***Words of Wisdom***

"Every time you rise from your sleeping state, you have been reincarnated. Every time you recover from a bad experience, you have been reincarnated. Every time you have been given a new lease on life, you have been reincarnated. Every time you breath in and out, take in the fresh breath of life and feel the divine intelligence flowing in and around you, you have been reincarnated."- Mfundishi Bakari

On "love":

"I am in love everyday, whether I am with someone or not. Why? All love is based on a search for spirit. For me love is timeless, transcendent, peaceful, freeing, soul-based, unifying, and enhanced evolution. This is the basis of my activism."- Nettrice, the embodiment of Oshun

"Since we all make up the rules as we go along, love can mean many different things to many different people. But, for me love is a total commitment to understanding that is not limited to just people but is open to the totality of life. As long as we approach love from a fear based mentality and perceive it through veils of guardedness and anxiety, it will always be restricted by our fears."- Mfundishi Bakari

>" so Yahweh
>First let me make clear that
>the CONCEPT of "God is
>separate from His creations" is
>SUBJECTIVE. The scripture that
>you uphold is SUBJECTIVE.
>The Torah is subjective to
>Jews, the Bible is subjective
>to Christians, and the Quran
>is subjective to Muslims.
>The fact remains that the
>writers of each of these
>works SAY they were either
>inspired by "God" to write
>it or they are just
>repeating "God's words." This CANNOT
>BE PROVEN. (sidenote: If
>you want to "try" to
>prove it please do so
>on another post and just
>refer me to it. this
>goes for anyone)

Response: Not so fast, I see what your doing your putting the ball back in my court. No No it's time for you to defend your faith, actually you don't have to defend your faith all you have to do is tell me why do you believe this. And earlier you said it was subjective to you and Africans. Also the bible can be proven to be divine and I might do a post later on If I choose but it will be lengthy. But it can be proven because of prophesy,archeology,manuscript evidence, and statistical probability. The others can't.
>
>Prove that Adam and Eve were
>the first man and woman
>on the planet. Everyone has
>there own creation story so
>why is the hebrew story
>of anymore importance?

Respose: The proof of this will be the source, if the Bible can be proven to be divine(which it can) then the story of Adam and Eve is credible. Also the theory of evolution has been shot at just about every angle possible, so thats no longer credible.

Prove the
>Jews were actually in capitivty
>in KMT (Egypt). YOU CAN'T.
>The only objectivity of the
>scripture is that those who
>hold power ASSUME that the
>scripture is objective.

Response: Archeology has discovered writtings containing proof that Joseph did live in Egypt, also I was just reading how they think they found Joseph tomb. Noe the person I got the info about the writtings in Egypt I won't see again until the fall. But the article I was reading about what might be his tomb was done by a guy name Jay Smith.

>The scripture is the truth TO
>YOU. This is fine.
>However like i said you
>won't understand Afrakan culture whatsoever
>as long as you maintain
>this perspective.


Response: All I was asking is why do you believe this. This has nothing to do with Christianity but why do you believe this. Are you from Africa? were you raised to believe this? Was it because it sounded good? Or is there plausible evidence for this?
>
>With this defintion of "objectivity" the
>Bible can NEVER be "objective":
>

Response: Incorrect the Bible can be proven to be objective because it has too many things pointing to it being a divine book. But as I stated earlier this not about the Bible the ball is in your court, when the time comes I'll defend the Bible again and show how it's divine.
>
>Is not the entire old Testament
>written from the perspective of
>the Hebrews thus villifying any
>nation or people who may
>have opposed them?

Response: Not the entire Old Testament, Job was not an Isrealite. Also half the Old Testament talks about Isreal becoming a nation, disobeying God, there failures, going into exile, comming out exile, redicating the temple, and almost bringing judgement back on themselves again.

Were
>not there customs of other
>people viewed as evil or
>abhorrent?

Response: No, not there customs, just there denial of Yahweh.

So are you saying
>that this perspective is "objective"
>because Hebrews were the "chosen"
>people of YHWH? How
>do I know that?

Response: I don't think you realize what it meant for the Jew to be the "chosen people" of God, once you realize this then maybe you won't see it as subjective. Maybe I should do a post on the Old Testament but that requires a lot of typing.

>Only the words of Hebrews
>tell me that they were
>the "chosen" people. But
>this is not subjective.


Respons: No not at all, because it also records there failures as a nation, and them going into exile. As a matter of fact I think God spent most of his time upset with the Isrealites.

that scream "GO HOME SHERMAN" that i can't even copy/paste them all. however i would very much like to see what christians are manufacturing as "research" these days so please post the "Joseph living in egypt" thing...this should be fun.

>that scream "GO HOME SHERMAN" that
>i can't even copy/paste them
>all. however i would very
>much like to see what
>christians are manufacturing as "research"
>these days so please post
>the "Joseph living in egypt"
>thing...this should be fun.


Response: Not yet big fella, that would put me back on the defense and take all the pressure of you guys. As soon as I feel the need I will. By the way the as I stated earlier I'm not going to see the professor agian until the fall. And the article from Jay Smith is on the answering Islam site its only talking about archeology finds so the Josheph one is in the middle of a whole host of others. But if you really want to see it Answering Islam.org.

trying to talk about something that cannot be transmitted by speech alone...and realizing that when you do, you put yourself in the "conceptual set" of another because you have just limited yourself to talking and dismissing the other methods of transmission of the message.

if i try to describe sunlight and you cannot see ultraviolet and i can, and you have no way whatsoever to even observe/measure/confirm that there is indeed an ultraviolet aspect of the spectrum...how can i talk to you. ESPECIALLY when i'm telling you a way to see them and you keep getting caught up in your already held beliefs about sunlight and the spectrum.

the reason solarus didn't answer you from the beginning is because of the way you posed the questions...which brought a whole slew of assumptions that at this point he might be tired of dealing with...and i am certainly tired of even hearing. damn i need a scanner, i have to draw something for the explanation...maybe i can hook something up.

>trying to talk about something that
>cannot be transmitted by speech
>alone...and realizing that when you
>do, you put yourself in
>the "conceptual set" of another
>because you have just limited
>yourself to talking and dismissing
>the other methods of transmission
>of the message.

Response: No No. I won't answer your question until you answer mind.I'm not in trouble by any means I just see your trying to put the light back on me. I can back up anything I say. I've been through( alonge with other Christians who have been so helpful thanks) four post asking questions about my faith now its your turn. I can go through a whole list of archeological finds, but all you want to is try to knock them down(which you can't). I'm just keeping us on task and "you" have not given me an answer. You know it does'nt have to be a deep answer you can say I believe because I believe. That's all of you can come with proof I don't mind either.
>
>if i try to describe sunlight
>and you cannot see ultraviolet
>and i can, and you
>have no way whatsoever to
>even observe/measure/confirm that there is
>indeed an ultraviolet aspect of
>the spectrum...how can i talk
>to you. ESPECIALLY when i'm
>telling you a way to
>see them and you keep
>getting caught up in your
>already held beliefs about sunlight
>and the spectrum.

Response: Man if I would have said this boy I would have gotten killed. You really doubt my intellegence, or maybe there isn't any proof of this diety. If there isn't then oh well I'm not rubbing it in. I just wanted to know what you got.
>
>the reason solarus didn't answer you
>from the beginning is because
>of the way you posed
>the questions...which brought a whole
>slew of assumptions that at
>this point he might be
>tired of dealing with...and i
>am certainly tired of even
>hearing. damn i need a
>scanner, i have to draw
>something for the explanation...maybe i
>can hook something up.

Response: And you don't think I got tired answering all of those questions?

>Response: So your saying that this
>type of thought is subjective
>and thats why you believe
>this right?
>>
>>
>>And often claims at "objectivity" are
>>false claims that people used
>>to assert the validity and
>>importance of their own beliefs.
>
>Response: OK follow you so far,
>but objective claims are often
>times truth claim which are
>undeniable.
>>>
Truth is objective. For example how do you really know the color of your shirt. (This goes back to phylosophy class) I can question everything about you write now. Facts rely on the burden of individuals, community, society, whatever.. same with truth.

In most Afrikan thought, the only way something is fact is if you see it directly or it comes from a very reliable source (person) from which the community has established a level of respect and trust in.

Facts that derive from say a book are considered beliefs, for there is know way to determine how reliable the source is..


>>Your view of God is objective
>>TO YOU. It isn't your
>>own reasoning but it is
>>an ACCEPTED reasoning by people
>>like yourself. A reasoning that
>>is NOT accepted by ALL
>>people.


>Response: Actually the based on truth
>claims. Just because some people
>disagree with me does'nt knock
>there validity. And just because
>I accept it does'nt make
>it true also.

Prove to me, there was a man named "Jesus" that walked the earth died, resurrected himself walked around, then flew to heaven..

>Response: A majority count does'nt make
>something true. The truth is
>the truth whether we believe
>it or not. Are you
>familiar with first principle's?

Again...

>Truth is objective. For example how
>do you really know the
>color of your shirt. (This
>goes back to phylosophy class)

Response: Because it corresponds with reality that is how I know its white. Factual truth is that which corresponds to the facts thats how I know.

>I can question everything about
>you write now. Facts rely
>on the burden of individuals,
>community, society, whatever.. same with
>truth.

Response: Depending on the facts. Factual truths is that which corresponds to the facts. It is what corresponds to the actual state of affairs being described. Truth correspondence applies to abstract realities as well as actual ones. There are mathamatical truths. There are truths about ideas. In each case there is reality, and truth accuractly expresses it.
>
>In most Afrikan thought, the only
>way something is fact is
>if you see it directly
>or it comes from a
>very reliable source (person) from
>which the community has established
>a level of respect and
>trust in.

Response: Ok I have a question, just because Africans view truths this way does that make it correct? If so How?
>
>Facts that derive from say a
>book are considered beliefs, for
>there is know way to
>determine how reliable the source
>is..

Response: So what your saying is that a source could be totally unrealiable and still might be considered the truth?
>
>
>
>Prove to me, there was a
>man named "Jesus" that walked
>the earth died, resurrected himself
>walked around, then flew to
>heaven..

Response: Not so fast, your turning the light back on me. This is your world, you go first then I'll go second. You know this didn't have to turn into such a debate all I ask is why do you believe this and no one has said anything objective. All I've gotten is the "your a westerner", how is your bible accurate, and so forth. My intent was not to debate everyone but simply asking why do you believe this. That's it. You could have easily have said I'll get back to you or this is my personal belief.
>
>
>Again...

Response: If I feel the need I will do another post on Christianity but it will be more than just one post. And I think I have defended it well so far. So until then its your turn.

Akwaaba

Main Entry: 1ob·jec·tive
Pronunciation: &b-'jek-tiv, äb-
Function: adjective
Date: 1620
1 a : relating to or existing as an object of thought without consideration of independent existence -- used chiefly in medieval philosophy b : of, relating to, or being an object , phenomenon, or condition in the realm of sensible experience independent of individual thought and perceptible by all observers : having reality independent of the mind <objective reality> <our reveries... are significantly and repeatedly shaped by our transactions with the objective world -- Marvin Reznikoff> -- compare SUBJECTIVE 3a c of a symptom of disease : perceptible to persons other than the affected individual -- compare SUBJECTIVE 4c d : involving or deriving from sense perception or experience with actual objects , conditions, or phenomena <objective awareness> <objective data>
2 : relating to, characteristic of, or constituting the case of words that follow prepositions or transitive verbs
3 a : expressing or dealing with facts or conditions as perceived without distortion by personal feelings, prejudices, or interpretations <objective art> <an objective history of the war> <an objective judgment> b of a test : limited to choices of fixed alternatives and reducing subjective factors to a minimum
*****

If you want to truly understood Afrakan thought, you must (at least temporarily) set aside this emphasis on "objectivity." A synonym of "objective" is "material." Objectivity is based on things material which in turn is limited when discussing spiritual systems. This is not emphasized nor valued when concerning a thing's "importance" within Afrakan culture. Also "objectivity" is the end result of the "either/or" dichotomy within Western thought. This severely limits the perspective of the Divine among Afrakans.

And often claims at "objectivity" are false claims that people used to assert the validity and importance of their own beliefs.


>
>Response: But that makes it subjective.
>If I have a concept
>of God and you have
>a concept of God then
>there is no objective reasoning
>to agree with either one
>of us. My view of
>God is objective.It's not my
>own reasoning

Your view of God is objective TO YOU. It isn't your own reasoning but it is an ACCEPTED reasoning by people like yourself. A reasoning that is NOT accepted by ALL people. Therefore when considering every single person on the planet, your view of God IS SUBJECTIVE to only a certain number of people as MILLIONS of people do not accept that view of being true.

PEace
Solarus

***Words of Wisdom***

"Every time you rise from your sleeping state, you have been reincarnated. Every time you recover from a bad experience, you have been reincarnated. Every time you have been given a new lease on life, you have been reincarnated. Every time you breath in and out, take in the fresh breath of life and feel the divine intelligence flowing in and around you, you have been reincarnated."- Mfundishi Bakari

On "love":

"I am in love everyday, whether I am with someone or not. Why? All love is based on a search for spirit. For me love is timeless, transcendent, peaceful, freeing, soul-based, unifying, and enhanced evolution. This is the basis of my activism."- Nettrice, the embodiment of Oshun

"Since we all make up the rules as we go along, love can mean many different things to many different people. But, for me love is a total commitment to understanding that is not limited to just people but is open to the totality of life. As long as we approach love from a fear based mentality and perceive it through veils of guardedness and anxiety, it will always be restricted by our fears."- Mfundishi Bakari

>Akwaaba
>
>
>If you want to truly understood
>Afrakan thought, you must (at
>least temporarily) set aside this
>emphasis on "objectivity." A
>synonym of "objective" is "material."

Response: Ok I'll try.

> Objectivity is based on
>things material which in turn
>is limited when discussing spiritual
>systems. This is not
>emphasized nor valued when concerning
>a thing's "importance" within Afrakan
>culture. Also "objectivity" is the
>end result of the "either/or"
>dichotomy within Western thought.
>This severely limits the perspective
>of the Divine among Afrakans.


Response: So your saying that this type of thought is subjective and thats why you believe this right?
>
>
>And often claims at "objectivity" are
>false claims that people used
>to assert the validity and
>importance of their own beliefs.

Response: OK follow you so far, but objective claims are often times truth claim which are undeniable.
>>
>Your view of God is objective
>TO YOU. It isn't your
>own reasoning but it is
>an ACCEPTED reasoning by people
>like yourself. A reasoning that
>is NOT accepted by ALL
>people.


Response: Actually the based on truth claims. Just because some people disagree with me does'nt knock there validity. And just because I accept it does'nt make it true also.

Therefore when considering
>every single person on the
>planet, your view of God
>IS SUBJECTIVE to only a
>certain number of people as
>MILLIONS of people do not
>accept that view of being
>true.

Response: A majority count does'nt make something true. The truth is the truth whether we believe it or not. Are you familiar with first principle's?
>

>>Response: OK follow you so far, but objective claims are often times truth claim which are undeniable.

*sssssiiiiigggghhhhh*

in light of another post: now THAT'S when i say "Fuck It".
ok i'm going home now...

It only makes matters worse.

You sound frustrated. Now if I had said this on the " Biblical Questions" post you would have jumped for joy. What you should ask is why do I think truth claims can't be denied and maybe just maybe you'll see my point. It seems to me when people ask about my faith they demand an answer right away so I try to give it to them. But if I ask them about there faith I get you won't understand your western. It does'nt matter, truth is the truth is the truth. It does'nt change.

as someone said before...

"you can't beat allah." same goes for yahweh.

From my response to abduhu ("Point Taken"):

"Realize that the frustration, aggravation and any ill feelings stem from centuries of non-Afrakan cultures, Christianity AND Islam condemning Afrakan traditions and customs. In fact, the standpoint alone of Christianity and Islam automatically is diametrically OPPOSED (and not just "different") to Afrakan traditions.

In my response to him I didn't "attack" at all. I tried to show him WHAT he was doing and how that is detrimental when trying to understand the Afrakan standpoint. In general, the Afrakan would have an easier time understanding Islam and/or Christianity before a Muslim or Christian could understand any Afrakan spiritual system. The reason for this phenomena is that Afrakan traditions are theoretically inclusive and accepting of diverse ideas whereas there is no room for differentiation within Islam and Christianity."

The truth you believe in is only the truth because the Western world has ASSERTED its truth OVER the truth of others. The reason people say you "won't understand" is because you operate from a conceptual system that PREVENTS one from thinking in other ways. Western thought has many nuisances that "protect" itself from being expulsed. This is not the direction I want this post to go in so i will refer you to the "Afrakan vs. European Worldview" in the archives.

And you are right, people demand answers from you only Christianity, immediately. If this is seemingly unbalanced, it is only so by the rift, derision, confusion caused by the superiority and imperializing notions held by Christians AND Christianity. Thus it is YOUR own fault. You reap what you sow, my friend.

PEace
Solarus

***Words of Wisdom***

"Every time you rise from your sleeping state, you have been reincarnated. Every time you recover from a bad experience, you have been reincarnated. Every time you have been given a new lease on life, you have been reincarnated. Every time you breath in and out, take in the fresh breath of life and feel the divine intelligence flowing in and around you, you have been reincarnated."- Mfundishi Bakari

On "love":

"I am in love everyday, whether I am with someone or not. Why? All love is based on a search for spirit. For me love is timeless, transcendent, peaceful, freeing, soul-based, unifying, and enhanced evolution. This is the basis of my activism."- Nettrice, the embodiment of Oshun

"Since we all make up the rules as we go along, love can mean many different things to many different people. But, for me love is a total commitment to understanding that is not limited to just people but is open to the totality of life. As long as we approach love from a fear based mentality and perceive it through veils of guardedness and anxiety, it will always be restricted by our fears."- Mfundishi Bakari

>From my response to abduhu ("Point
>Taken"):
>
>"Realize that the frustration, aggravation and
>any ill feelings stem from
>centuries of non-Afrakan cultures, Christianity
>AND Islam condemning Afrakan traditions
>and customs. In fact, the
>standpoint alone of Christianity and
>Islam automatically is diametrically OPPOSED
>(and not just "different") to
>Afrakan traditions.

Response: Man, are you trying to justify what my man did? Look all I asked is why do you believe this, you don't have to explain every single African concept out there. I know Christianity is opposed to African beliefs but thats not where I was going, all I wanted was why do you "personally" believe in this. To see if there was any evidence for this if there isn't oh well life goes on I wasn't going to rub it in, I'm always looking for new ideas and concepts. Now if I can't grasp these concepts so be it, but man you guys are thinking to hard.
>
>In my response to him I
>didn't "attack" at all. I
>tried to show him WHAT
>he was doing and how
>that is detrimental when trying
>to understand the Afrakan standpoint.

Response: Thats the problem I'm not doing anything I just asked a question. I could debate this but I won't. Unless you really want to.


>In general, the Afrakan would
>have an easier time understanding
>Islam and/or Christianity before a
>Muslim or Christian could understand
>any Afrakan spiritual system. The
>reason for this phenomena is
>that Afrakan traditions are theoretically
>inclusive and accepting of diverse
>ideas whereas there is no
>room for differentiation within Islam
>and Christianity."

Response: Ok cool, so basically I'll never get it because I am a Christian is what your saying. Well fine then this god could never be considered an absolute truth, because absolute truths are for everyone.
>
>The truth you believe in is
>only the truth because the
>Western world has ASSERTED its
>truth OVER the truth of
>others. The reason people
>say you "won't understand" is
>because you operate from a
>conceptual system that PREVENTS one
>from thinking in other ways.


Response: I really don't like this answer, but oh well what can you do. Look the truth is the truth for African down to Asians.
Also Biblical history stems from the "near east" not western thought.


>
>And you are right, people demand
>answers from you only Christianity,
>immediately. If this is
>seemingly unbalanced, it is only
>so by the rift, derision,
>confusion caused by the
>superiority and imperializing notions held
>by Christians AND Christianity.

Response: Get out of here, I told you I would answer your questions why? because this helps people understand what Christianity comes from, there is nothing to hide. If I say it is the truth then the truth will stand. Plus I don't think I'm superior to nobody my arrogance lies in the gospel, I can't do anything by myself.

>Thus it is YOUR own
>fault. You reap what
>you sow, my friend.

Response: Oh please, I wasn't complaining. I was showing you that if I gave you guys the same answers you have given me boy it would have been over, you would have laughed me off the planet. If I would have said " you guys would never understand Christianity because your mind has been clouded by African thought" or " it would be easier for Chrstians to understand African thought more than vice versa, I don't think you would have let me get away with it. But I'll accept this.
>

>Response: So your saying that this
>type of thought is subjective
>and thats why you believe
>this right?
>>
>>
>>And often claims at "objectivity" are
>>false claims that people used
>>to assert the validity and
>>importance of their own beliefs.
>
>Response: OK follow you so far,
>but objective claims are often
>times truth claim which are
>undeniable.
>>>

Truth is objective. For example how do you really know the color of your shirt. (This goes back to phylosophy class) I can question everything about you write now. Facts rely on the burden of individuals, community, society, whatever.. same with truth.

In most Afrikan thought, the only way something is fact is if you see it directly or it comes from a very reliable source (person) from which the community has established a level of respect and trust in.

Facts that derive from say a book are considered beliefs, for there is know way to determine how reliable the source is..


>>Your view of God is objective
>>TO YOU. It isn't your
>>own reasoning but it is
>>an ACCEPTED reasoning by people
>>like yourself. A reasoning that
>>is NOT accepted by ALL
>>people.


>Response: Actually the based on truth
>claims. Just because some people
>disagree with me does'nt knock
>there validity. And just because
>I accept it does'nt make
>it true also.

Prove to me, there was a man named "Jesus" that walked the earth died, resurrected himself walked around, then flew to heaven..

>Response: A majority count does'nt make
>something true. The truth is
>the truth whether we believe
>it or not. Are you
>familiar with first principle's?

Again...

Maybe I can bring some clarity..I don't know...

God in tradition Afikans societies is within everything that exist. There is no Great Big Wizard with a magic stick saying "You go to heaven" "You go to hell". This is not a part of Afrikan thought. God is you and all things around you. With that knowledge you should begin to understand that all things around you from other people to the trees in the forest should possess the same or simular ammounts of respect. That's why Afrikans (and most other cultures including Asian and Native American) enjoyed a sort of "oneness" with the enviroment around them.


"Evil" is does not exist in the Western manner. Roles and Rules are regulated and determined by the society from inwhich they govern. With the knowledge that you are a representive of God how could there be "evil" it does not exist.

If I stand correct I'am sorry, but I hope that clears thing up a little.

you're on point.

(This is a story originally posted by utamaroho a few months ago, however I felt that it beautiful expressed the concept of "God is IMMANENT..." and should be added.)

There was a time in our ancient history a beautiful people residing in a city in Africa. They thought that they had everything about life figured out. There were two sides to this town. The people of one side of this town lived life as if today was the only day that counted. They drank and lived in excessive merriment all the time. Life was just one big party for them. On the other hand the people of the other side of the town considered themselves the most holy of all people and lived their lives in dedication to, what they said, was the unadultered worship of Olodumare (God). Strangely, the two sides of the town lived in total ignorance of the existence of one another even though they lived in the same metropolis. This was mainly due to the thick forrest area that divided them from one another.


The two villages both had the same basic problem. Day in and day out the village of the carefree people were waiting for Olodumare to descend down to them. Everything, to them, seemed to be a sign that "today was the big" day that Olodumare would take care of EVERYTHING. But they said that until the day came that Olodumare did come down to them that they were going to party, party, party - they would worry about spiritual reality later. The village of the "holy" people lived life all day LOOKING in the sky asking and begging Olodumare to do this and that for them, but nothing seemed to come of it.


One day, down at the river Osun, a townsman from the "holy" people village was washing his clothes in the sacred waters when a townswoman from the other village also walked upon the banks of the river. It was like love at first sight and eventually the two were married. Fortunately, this is what brought the two villages together.


Over time both townships began to see the folly in each other's ways. The people of the partying village learned from the "holy" people that the river Osun had long been a sacred river, and that great revelations and miracles had ocurred there over time. Soon afterward, about 8 villagers from each townships began to meet at the river Osun WAITING for Olodumare to come. Some even started to doubt the very existence of the Creator.


Eventually one of the villagers got the idea of traversing the whole area along the Osun in SEARCH for Olodumare. So, through some careful convincing the people convinced their crown prince to order some horses from the land of the Nupe for this important project. The horses arrived in two days , and the meetings resumed. Morning after morning they mounted their 16 horses, split up, and went in diligent search for Olodumare. eventually they began to meet at night. So obssessed were the people with the possibility of actually FINDING God, they often struck out at night with lit lanterns searching for this All in All!


After about a year of this night and day searching, one morning some of the villagers came to the river and found a vagabond washing. The people of the town had become so self consumed, haughty and arrogant and wanted nothing to do with those that had a hard lot in life. So they moved down the bank some distance to keep away from the vagabond. It was once again time to set out in search for Olodumare.


The next morning the people continued the ritual of their frivolty consumed in their search. As they were about to begin their morning deliberations, they noticed a man ride by on a black horse at top speed. Back and forth, up and down the bank of the river, the man and horse sped off. After a little time, the man stopped near the villagers to water his horse. The villagers then recognized the man as the "worthless" vagabond. They yelled out "What is wrong with you stupid, filthy old man?! Why are you riding so fast up and down the banks of our beautiful river Osun?" With a lit latern in hand, the vagabond replied "I am looking for my beautifully clad black horse". At that instant, he darted off on the very black horse that he was looking for - lantern in hand, positioned in front of him as if he needed it to actually see where he was going.


On his way speeding back, the horse stepped in a hole, throwing the man. Fortunately, the horse's leg was not broken and the man thanked Olodumare for the life of his horse. Just then one of the villagers called out to the man in disdainful disgust saying "Dumb old fool. How could you be looking for your horse and you were just riding on it?"


The vagabond replied and said:

"I guess you are right about me already having my horse because I was on it. And I almost lost my horse, something of great value and something I already had, because I did not realize I had it. But I guess I was just following your example. You see I have watched all 16 of you, day in and day out for some time, saying that you were "looking for" Olodumare. I have heard you bickering about whose fault it was you could not find Olodumare and other fruitless talk of yours. People, just as I was on my horse and looking for it at the same time, something I ALREADY had, so too have all of you been looking for something you already have. OLODUMARE RESIDES WITHIN EACH OF YOU. This is what makes you omo-Olodumare (Children of God)."


While the people of the city stood in silent astonishment at this great truth, the "vagabond" dishevelled his dirty clothes and revealed a beautiful buba robe. He was a great sage, of timeless age; in the world but not of it. He compelled the townspeople to confess their ignorance so that they may elevate to divine consciousness. In this way was order and righteousnes established in their community.


ASE, and may the Ancestors bless you always.

Being that every God-given day is indeed sacred, and w-"holy"(whole & complete):


Healing is work, not gambling. It is the work of inspiration, not
manipulation. If we healers are to do the work of helping bring our whole
people together again, we need to know such is the work of a community. It
cannot be done by an individual. It should not depend on a single person,
however heroic may be... The work of healing is work for inspirers
working long and steadily in a group that grows over generations, until
there are inspirers, healers wherever our people are scattered, able to
bring us together again.

Ayi Kwei Armah, The Healers


"Don't Hate the PLAYA Boy...hate the GAME," Granddad Freeman of the Boondocks(7-11-99)

*Twenty-three percent of women are "autoerotic singles" — they prefer to achieve sexual satisfaction alone(source-bet.com)

*If U have won a Grammy, one of two things are at play: 1. Your shit is TIGHT
2. U are white
-(Me)

"'Cuz U answer the phone 'peace' that means U not a freak?"-The Questions(c) Common

Sorry for any misspelling of your screen name. (I am not the best speller).

I will bring these point up only once further. If you firmly believe something and that is all you know and are willing to believe then how can anyone change your opinion???? In a sence the only way to begin to understand a different way of thinking is to free your yourself from this. In a sence open you mind. We have been programed with Christian doctrine all our lives, what you are saying is nothing new, but an understanding occured when reading other cultures and that was that these peoples came from an entirely different perspective, they way they thought is radical to me, but in reality what makes it that more radical than they way I think.... Simple.

OK to begin.
You want proof of a "Afrakan God" well I can tell you my proof is that I exist. But you want some physical evidence or some archeoligical findings (That is a whole different story). Well in truth there are not many to look at. Dieties such a Ifa are subjective by nature. It basically means change. When applied it means there are changes that are about to take place. Ifa is not an omnipitent character that lurks in the sky making rules. But rather a deity which is one component of a whole, that was named to represents change. My proof that there is Ifa is there is constant change..

peace..

Oya is the diety and I will make a seperate post....

>Sorry for any misspelling of your
>screen name. (I am not
>the best speller).


Response: Me either, but you got it right.

>I will bring these point up
>only once further. If you
>firmly believe something and that
>is all you know and
>are willing to believe then
>how can anyone change your
>opinion????

Response: Yeah good point, but I wasn't trying to get indepth like that all I wanted was to understand why you and others believe in this diety. I thought when I first asked the question I stated that I was not trying to debate anyone just wanted some info thats all.

In a sence the
>only way to begin to
>understand a different way of
>thinking is to free your
>yourself from this. In a
>sence open you mind. We
>have been programed with Christian
>doctrine all our lives, what
>you are saying is nothing
>new, but an understanding occured
>when reading other cultures and
>that was that these peoples
>came from an entirely different
>perspective, they way they thought
>is radical to me, but
>in reality what makes it
>that more radical than they
>way I think.... Simple.


Response: Oh I understand you, I just wanted to see why you personnally believe this.
>
>OK to begin.
>You want proof of a "Afrakan
>God" well I can tell
>you my proof is that
>I exist. But you want
>some physical evidence or some
>archeoligical findings (That is a
>whole different story). Well in
>truth there are not many
>to look at. Dieties such
>a Ifa are subjective by
>nature. It basically means change.
>When applied it means there
>are changes that are about
>to take place. Ifa is
>not an omnipitent character that
>lurks in the sky making
>rules. But rather a deity
>which is one component of
>a whole, that was named
>to represents change. My proof
>that there is Ifa is
>there is constant change..
>
>peace..

Response: Cool that's all i wanted. Later on if you want we can have a discussion on something deeper if you'd like.

I'm enchanted by the fact that you are making this post that speaks on the Orishas because people (mostly from the Western-Christian idealogical world) really don't understand this.
The wind is not some scientific phenomenom (or atleast, that's not all it is, exclusively), she has a name.... a spirit.




"People think they make music, still/ when music is there without you or me, we just manipulate/ for better or worse, so let it situate"- Deltron

Needs to be finished...