i just have to reiterate this.

oh, and there's been a survey conducted to back me up this time.

(remember kids; most of us like you guys. we just don't like your leader, ok?)


The world backs Kerry

Friday October 15, 2004
The Guardian

Millions of Americans are scratching their heads over how to vote on November 2 after the last of the three televised presidential debates left George Bush and John Kerry neck and neck over jobs, education, health care and taxes, with little mention of Iraq or 9/11. But the rest of the world, according to a poll we and several other newspapers publish today, has already made up its mind, backing the Democratic challenger by a margin of two to one.

Any sample, of course, is just a sample, but this survey of public opinion in 10 countries does include the US's two immediate neighbours, Canada and Mexico, as well as Israel and Russia, Washington's close allies in the "war on terror", and Britain, still its most loyal transatlantic friend, despite widespread criticism of Tony Blair. Unfortunately, Muslim countries are absent, though their inclusion would have made even gloomier reading for the White House. A recent Pew Research Centre poll, for example, showed just 7% of Pakistanis approve of Mr Bush, while 65% have a favourable opinion of Osama bin Laden.

These findings - likely to achieve a high degree of exposure because they are media-driven - confirm previous polls in underlining the degree of global hostility to President Bush and the Iraq war. Some 74% of Germans, according to GlobeScan, want to see Mr Kerry win the election. A June poll conducted by the German Marshall Fund found that 76% of respondents in nine European countries disapproved of Mr Bush's handling of international affairs, up significantly from a survey in 2002. It also found that 80% of Europeans polled - compared with half of Americans - said Iraq was not worth the human and financial cost. In Europe, only Poles would rather see Mr Bush back in the Oval office. Elsewhere in "new Europe" there is a distinctly "old European" wish to see the Massachusetts senator win. Further afield, Israelis are the only people to back the incumbent and to see American democracy as a model for other countries. Similarly positive views in Russia appear to reflect the hardline US view on Chechen terrorism: the survey was carried out in the aftermath of the Beslan school massacre.

Against this bleak background, the good news is that there is a clear distinction between anti-Americanism and criticism of US policies. No less than 68% of all those polled - with the French, Mr Kerry's most fervent backers, scoring a surprising above-average 72% - have a favourable view of Americans but are implacably opposed to the US government. Opinions of the US have worsened for 57% over the past three years.

Strikingly, though, political differences may now be casting shadows in other areas. Young Britons, avid consumers of Big Macs, Starbucks and Friends, are now hostile to American culture on a scale traditionally associated with the French. Canada, Mexico and South Korea feel even more threatened. It is common ground that Iraq and the Guantánamo Bay and Abu Ghraib scandals have eroded the sympathy generated by the 2001 terrorist attacks. Encouragingly for whoever does win, 90% believe it is important to maintain good relations with the US. The danger is, perhaps, of expecting too much from a Kerry victory.

Mr Bush may well wish to exploit this hostility, against a rival he has portrayed as caring too much for allies and not enough for America. Clearly, if the world had a vote, the result on November 2 would not be in doubt. The president is unlikely to be surprised that the Guardian, Asahi Shimbun, Le Monde or El Pais believe that Iraq is a "deadly and highly questionable war". That though, is the view of the Lone Star Iconoclast, published in his home town of Crawford, Texas. It matters a lot what others think about the US. But it is only Americans who can choose their own leader.


there's full responses and the full text of questions, as well as editorials from the 10 countries involved, at
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uselections2004/viewsofamerica/0,15220,1327191,00.html



...probably pointless, since a lot of you don't give a fuck about the rest of the world. (as i've had a few people on here point out, in those exact words.)

but, hey, we gotta keep trying...

I just say dont vote for bush..

not like there is a viable 3rd party candidate who has a remote chance of winning the election

...

I don't like either candidate but I would like Bush more than Kerry. Kerry is no different on being a neo-conservative type really. He wants to bomb Iran and Syria as well and hes actually quite a big supporter of the Zionists so ...Bushg is better because we know whats hes gonna do. If Kerry wins seriously it will be to make Americans feel less guilty of the whole Iraq thing. This country seems to want the '90s back.

to do those things...

for other countries to be concerned with how America will vote is one thing, but the guardian has no right to influence our election by having British citizens write to americans.

it's an insult.

if you want to influence the decisions of particular nations, write a letter to Tehran, Pyongyang, Beijing, or Moscow. The piss poor decisions in those corrupt cities need to be addressed more than those in Washington. Matter of fact, contact Paris and Berlin while you are at it.

Really, you cant see how arrogant your post sounds?

Everyone else is wrong except the states?

Have a look at the amnesty website.....

besides, are you really going to lump the US with Iran, that's odd coming from a UK citizen who pumps his gas with iranian oil.

not to mention the fact, that I have yet to see the Washington post run a 'vote blair out' contest, encouraging US citizens to write to you blokes. but it wouldn't have been an awful idea for the John Major years now that i think of it...

the us is better than France, Germany or England, or anyone else, and god is on your side...

Now give me some reasons.

By the way. did you look on the amnesty site yet?

said we are better than any other country.

but my point is, our media isnt trying ot influence your elections either.

yes i've looked at amnesty international, what is your point.

abusers.

and as for not trying to influence other countries elections, we are having a laugh here are we not?

And I look forward to letters from Americans next year telling me to vote for Lib Dems...

when it comes to influencing other countries the united states is notorious for using more violent approaches...no need to list the countries

No one cares what you think. This is the election for President of the United States, not president of the world.

Continue to shell out kickbacks to despots and appeasing terrorists, and let us handle this.
__________________________
"The political left has long favored putting more and more decisions in the hands of people who pay no price for being wrong -- not only judges but zoning boards, environmental commissions and, internationally, the United Nations and the World Court. This is a vision of the wise and the virtuous imposing their wisdom and virtue on the lesser people who make up the rest of humanity.

Egalitarians are often in the vanguard of those seeking to promote this most dangerous of all inequalities -- the inequality of unaccountable power in the service of a vision." - Thomas Sowell

Read the rantings of a .

but I'm sure that the Democrats will use this info to convince the U.S. that we should all vote for Kerry aka the solution to all of life's problems

<--- Wes Welker = God

The Fellowship of the Fins:
absence, Al_Tru_Ist, BreezeBoogie, dank_reggae, Drewmathic, Ir_Cuba, LML, MIAthinker, Robert, Roofdogg10, Sandbox194, wonderl33t, xenophobia

so we do care who you vote in, because it directly affects us.

I love the reasoning here. Its fine for you to actively interfere in other's elections (see Iraq for most recent examples), it just isnt cool for foreigners to ask Americans to vote for one person over another.

Like whoever you want, but thinking you're justified to ask Americans to vote your way is pure horseshit. What if I asked you to act a certain way politically wherever the hell you live... you'd tell me to fuck off. If you can justify asking U.S. voters to vote kerry, please do so, because I'm sure not seeing it

<--- Wes Welker = God

The Fellowship of the Fins:
absence, Al_Tru_Ist, BreezeBoogie, dank_reggae, Drewmathic, Ir_Cuba, LML, MIAthinker, Robert, Roofdogg10, Sandbox194, wonderl33t, xenophobia

I cant tell you who to vote for, but I can ask. And if the voters cared about foreign policy (I.E diplomacy instead of blowing people up who live a long way away), then they might take it into consideration.#

Im sure the Iraqis know who they want to win. And Im sure Al Quaeda would have a party if Georgie got in again.

>I cant tell you who to vote for, but I can ask. And if the
>voters cared about foreign policy (I.E diplomacy instead of
>blowing people up who live a long way away), then they might
>take it into consideration.#

We tried diplomacy with the UN, and it failed. And trying to fight terrorism with diplomacy hasn't done anything to stop terrorist attacks.

>Im sure the Iraqis know who they want to win. And Im sure Al
>Quaeda would have a party if Georgie got in again.

You have it twisted. Al Queda would definitely want Kerry to win because he'll be softer on terrorist-harboring nations. Why would terrorists want Bush in if he's being hard on the nations who support them?

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>We tried diplomacy with the UN, and it failed. And trying
>to fight terrorism with diplomacy hasn't done anything to
>stop terrorist attacks.
>

But using violence has decreased terrorism and increased civil liberties world wide, has ensured that less people want to become a terrorists and has meant that the terrorists have less coverage of their respective causes, right?

By the way, what did terrorists have to do with Iraq before the invasion meant that any nutter with a cause and some explosives wanted to go there and blow some people up?

>You have it twisted. Al Queda would definitely want Kerry
>to win because he'll be softer on terrorist-harboring
>nations. Why would terrorists want Bush in if he's being
>hard on the nations who support them?
>

Ever heard the phrase "red rag to a bull", thats what Bush is.

What if I asked you to act a certain way politically wherever the hell you live... you'd tell me to fuck off.

<--- The Miami Dolphins' season (0-6 and counting)

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I would think about it. I would think, why do these people care so much?

if you really want Bush out of office, this type of thing hurts your cause.

for foreigners to want kerry to win

is that he is at least conscious of environmental issues, which concern us all.
and he isn't in the pockets of the oil cartels, like Bush is

it's a sad thing, but the people who will be feeling the effects of global warming first- that is, the citizens of Southern Africa, Peru, Chile, Australia, New Zealand, Kiribati, Niue, Tuvalu, and a whole bunch of other small nations, states and territories- consist of people who have a miniscule amount of the blame. (the effects include skin cancers, melanomas, rising water table, erosion of land, extinction of fish stocks, and a whole lot of other changes.)

seeing as the US accounts for only 5% of the worl population, but contributes 25% of the world's carbon emissions.. well, there's a lot of us who have our own reasons for wanting Kerry in office. and the environmental reason is a huge one. because we all share the same planet, like it or not.

is that you don't even understand our form of government.

by environment, and what it can do for your parochial concerns, i'm assuming you are referring to the Kyoto Protocol.

Well KIWI, Bill Clinton didn't force it through congress, and W. claimed it was 'dead' for a reason.

Because it would never see the House or Senate floors, EVER.

So for you to claim that a Kerry presidency would effect that is both ignorant and short sighted.

Once again, STAY THE FUCK OUT OF AMERICA AND our ELECTIONS.

i'll stay the fuck out of your elections on that day when America seals itself inside a huge bubble, and we no longer have to beathe the air that you guys are fucking up.

that's never gonna happen, though. so you're stuck with foreign criticism.

oh, you could withdraw your troops from my country, as well. and the spy bases, shut 'em down.. and maybe a few of the other 700+ military bases around the world. oh, and tone down the mass media, which has forcefed american ideals and lifestyles to a large percentage of the world.

i mean.. do you disagree that the US has a massive influence on the rest of the world? of course not. you love it... but you must understand that if you're going to try and run the world, then you're open to criticism... including criticism from Britons and, yes, Kiwis. you're not protected by a one-way membrane, you know.

(oh, and for further reference, it's kind of pointless to try and use 'kiwi' as an insult. that's exactly what we call ourselves, and we're proud of the name.... it's funny to see you typing it in all caps, like you think it's some kind of slur. but i wouldn't expect anything less from a righteous AMERICAN.)

...

FYI, global warming is highly controversial, and most likely a total crock. Througout history, average global temperature has fluctuated upward and downward. While carbon content in the air is unarguably higher because of the industrial revolution, nobody has successfully proved beyond doubt that it has anything to do with rising temperature. So that platform is about as strong as balsa wood, buddy

>for foreigners to want kerry to win
>
>is that he is at least conscious of environmental issues,
>which concern us all.
>and he isn't in the pockets of the oil cartels, like Bush is
>
>it's a sad thing, but the people who will be feeling the
>effects of global warming first- that is, the citizens of
>Southern Africa, Peru, Chile, Australia, New Zealand,
>Kiribati, Niue, Tuvalu, and a whole bunch of other small
>nations, states and territories- consist of people who have
>a miniscule amount of the blame. (the effects include skin
>cancers, melanomas, rising water table, erosion of land,
>extinction of fish stocks, and a whole lot of other
>changes.)
>
>seeing as the US accounts for only 5% of the worl
>population, but contributes 25% of the world's carbon
>emissions.. well, there's a lot of us who have our own
>reasons for wanting Kerry in office. and the environmental
>reason is a huge one. because we all share the same
>planet, like it or not.

<--- The Miami Dolphins' season (0-6 and counting)

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to be absolutely sure that the vast amounts of carbon going up into the air, have nothing to do with the rapidly changing ocean currents, the net temperature rise and the freak weather events.

I am an earth science major, and took an environmental science class in high school, so yeah I know a little bit about this stuff

>to be absolutely sure that the vast amounts of carbon going
>up into the air, have nothing to do with the rapidly
>changing ocean currents, the net temperature rise and the
>freak weather events.
>

Like I said in another reply, the burden of proof is on those asserting that global warming exists, and it hasn't been proven beyond doubt

<--- The Miami Dolphins' season (0-6 and counting)

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you will know that there hasnt ever been extreme climate change occuring as fast as it is now. I cant 100% scientifically prove anything (as a scientist, you will know that normally hypotheses can only be disproved), but seeing as there are factors variables in play now that have never occured before in the history of the earth, I would say the hypothesis that man has caused at least some global warming through excessive carbon emmissions is a pretty safe bet.

>...took an environmental
>science class in high school

------------------------------

There's real life happenin' every day....

which is from an academic website, or a respected scientific journal.

no, actually, don't bother. because there isn't any.

the whole 'global warming is a myth' line has been spun by your government and their buddies... and you swallowed that shit right up.

there's actually what's known as an 'international scientific consensus' that global warming is real, and getting worse.

come on, i don't want to have to spell this out for you. you could try going and rebutting every single piece of evidence, but i doubt you could even understand the complete ramifications of that data.

it's called innocent until proven guilty... the burden of proof is on the accuser

<--- The Miami Dolphins' season (0-6 and counting)

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which one of these do you want me to put statistics up for?

Evidence of Global Warming
 
Carbon Dioxide Increasing in Atmosphere
Methane Increasing
More Frequent Extreme Weather
Disappearing Glaciers
Melting Arctic Sea Ice 
Melting Antarctic Sea Ice
Greenland's Ice Sheet Melting
Tropical Diseases Spreading

it's all circumstantial.

<--- The Miami Dolphins' season (0-6 and counting)

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when everybody is talking about a real issue that is already affecting people and will have enormous results on the (not-so distant) future. There is only a tiny percentage of scientists who don't acknowledge the human effects on climate change and they all have corporate interests.

i'm not gonna blame u for swallowing that propoganda. it says more about the state of the media in the US that it does about you personally. but u can take your Bush-loving guard down on some issues cuz this one u're not gonna win. this one has real effects that are already being felt.

...from the polls:

"Do the United States wield excessive influence on international affairs?

Canada France UK Spain Russia Japan Australia Mexico Israel S Korea Average
Yes 86 73 66 87 78
No 11 17 30 11 17


Does the influence of American culture threaten your own culture?

Canada France UK Spain Russia Japan Australia Mexico Israel S Korea Average
Yes 60 51 59 58 57
No 38 40 38 39 39"

if you care to view the world as one, that's what you'll see. thats the reality.

'Would the list of pussy military nations (israel and Australia excluded) to follow have the opportunity to hold elections if it weren't for the US?'

> Canada France UK Spain Russia Japan Australia Mexico
>Israel S Korea Average

Yes 0
NO 100%


-i think it's odd that these nations hate us now, but 50 years ago had us on speed dial. and I do believe it was the bitch europeans and south koreans who are complaining that US troop levels are being lowered in their nations with Rumsfelds recent troop and BRAC movements.

if it weren't for the US, Europeans would be speaking German right now and saluting the 3rd Reich. Act like you know and say thank you rather than denigrating our people by appearing to know so much that you tell US who to vote for.

Except when you consider that a) The US was selling weapons and goods to both sides b) that the US didnt intervene until they were personally attacked and c)did very nicely in economic and political terms from helping out the British (who held out on their own for YEARS before anyone came to help them) and have been messing up the world ever since.

So thanks to the states for finally coming in and helping us after making sure we were too poor to bounce back after the war. And cheers for the destabilising influence across the world. Im sure the Nicaraguans, the Iraqis, The Afghani's, the Vietnamese, the Cambodians and all the rest want to thank the US for their foreign policy triumphs.

...cheers for the destabilising influence across the
>world. Im sure the Nicaraguans, the Iraqis, The Afghani's,
>the Vietnamese, the Cambodians and all the rest want to
>thank the US for their foreign policy triumphs.

ouch...

and, uh, who exactly did we liberate Canada & Mexico from?

Tell me more, Mr. History!

---------------------------------
GET OUT OF MY FACE! - Zell Miller

did we liberate them from someone ?

i tell ya, those nomadic Koori would've slaughtered the hapless Aussies if it wasn't for US intervention.

and they're such a pussy military country, they liberated East Timor and hardly even killed any of it's citizens. WIMPS.

and neither are canada, mexico, russia, israel or australia

get it right mate

and London is in Europe; at least the last time I checked.
__________________________
"The political left has long favored putting more and more decisions in the hands of people who pay no price for being wrong -- not only judges but zoning boards, environmental commissions and, internationally, the United Nations and the World Court. This is a vision of the wise and the virtuous imposing their wisdom and virtue on the lesser people who make up the rest of humanity.

Egalitarians are often in the vanguard of those seeking to promote this most dangerous of all inequalities -- the inequality of unaccountable power in the service of a vision." - Thomas Sowell

Read the rantings of a .

The Guardian is also available on the web. It is available to the entire world for free, and I understand that quite a lot of people from all over the planet, including US citizens, read it. And the last time I checked, nationality is not restricted to which newspaper you read.

he reads a European newspaper, he must be a European.

i don't need to copy all the editorials from each of those papers, do i?

because- apart from Israel and Russia, whoo, what a team- the other eight countries want Georgie out on his ass.

unless you're just addressing this one article. which seems a bit pointless. maybe you just thought it was the Guardian, that bastion of pinhead liberals everywhere, doing that thing solo...

or maybe you just couldn't be bothered typing "those damn british, french, australians, mexicans, canadians, etc etc"

they want Kerry for their own interests and for their liberal ideals... they don't give a fuck about America or Americans

<--- Wes Welker = God

The Fellowship of the Fins:
absence, Al_Tru_Ist, BreezeBoogie, dank_reggae, Drewmathic, Ir_Cuba, LML, MIAthinker, Robert, Roofdogg10, Sandbox194, wonderl33t, xenophobia

for when reason and common sense fail....

who the world is rooting for to be elected? It doesn't... it only matters what U.S. voters think

<--- Wes Welker = God

The Fellowship of the Fins:
absence, Al_Tru_Ist, BreezeBoogie, dank_reggae, Drewmathic, Ir_Cuba, LML, MIAthinker, Robert, Roofdogg10, Sandbox194, wonderl33t, xenophobia

you don't get it do you?

the UK has enough problems for it's own election, and that problem exists for all nations. For the guardian to suggest that Britons know so much that they can influence our election is both pompous and ignorant.

i can understand how the US election portends many things for other nations, but our election effects many domestic issues which you have no stake in.

but now that you've drawn my attention to it, i might just take them up on their offer.

thanks. i'm going to be pompous and ignorant now, and ask somebody from Ohio to vote for Kerry because it might help prevent me & my family (and our children, and our childrens children) dying from malignant melanomas.

as far as your domestic issues go; i'd like it if women had the right to choose, i'd like it if gays were allowed same-sex unions, i'd like it if gun control was tighter, i'd like it if healthcare was run by the state, etc etc.

the same compassion that makes us bleeding heart hippies feel sorry for homeless people in Sudan, Palestine, Iraq, etc, also extends to the downtrodden in the States.

not only that; after having your culture forcefed to me since i was born (via TV, music, movies, books, news, politics), well, i'm actually kind of miffed that i don't get a vote.

because the messages that come from behind your castle walls are screamed out amongst the rest of the world population, and even if they aren't affected directly by it, it still becomes part of our lives.

>
>as far as your domestic issues go; i'd like it if women had
>the right to choose, i'd like it if gays were allowed
>same-sex unions, i'd like it if gun control was tighter, i'd
>like it if healthcare was run by the state, etc etc.
>

- what you like and what you want for america is irrelevant. you are a kiwi, who can't even be happy in your own country, so you've migrated to the UK, now you aren't even happy there, so you are trying to infiltrate america. it's sad really.


>the same compassion that makes us bleeding heart hippies
>feel sorry for homeless people in Sudan, Palestine, Iraq,
>etc, also extends to the downtrodden in the States.
>

-there are downtrodden in New Zealand, go back and help them.

>not only that; after having your culture forcefed to me
>since i was born (via TV, music, movies, books, news,
>politics), well, i'm actually kind of miffed that i don't
>get a vote.
>

-that's apparent. and excuse me, but how was OUR culture FORCEd upon you? If i'm correct, you are espousing your anti-American pop culture rhetoric on an American artists website, consisting predominately of americans. Tell me who is forcing you to write on OUR site? Please, i'll take the sick fuck out myself, because nothing would please me more than to eradicate your anti-american sentiments from these boards.

>because the messages that come from behind your castle walls
>are screamed out amongst the rest of the world population,
>and even if they aren't affected directly by it, it still
>becomes part of our lives.

-so buy an elton john album and shut the fuck up. no one tells you to love our culture, you do it on your own. so decide what the hell you can do for your own country and leave ours well enough alone KIWI.

>- what you like and what you want for america is irrelevant.
> you are a kiwi, who can't even be happy in your own
>country, so you've migrated to the UK, now you aren't even
>happy there, so you are trying to infiltrate america. it's
>sad really.

Down to the personal insults already?

>
>-there are downtrodden in New Zealand, go back and help
>them.
>

Not nearly as many, by percentage or by number.


>-that's apparent. and excuse me, but how was OUR culture
>FORCEd upon you?

Yup, since I was a child, American advertising has been forced onto me.

If i'm correct, you are espousing your
>anti-American pop culture rhetoric on an American artists
>website, consisting predominately of americans. Tell me who
>is forcing you to write on OUR site?

This is the web, an international culture. It belongs to no nation.

Please, i'll take the
>sick fuck out myself, because nothing would please me more
>than to eradicate your anti-american sentiments from these
>boards.
>

And here it is, classic american solution number 1: they disagree with us, lets blow them up.

>-so buy an elton john album and shut the fuck up. no one
>tells you to love our culture, you do it on your own.

Not true, I have had coke, Mc Donalds, Pepsi, KFC, Burger King, Shite pop music, and US military superiority rammed down my throat since I was a little kid.

>- what you like and what you want for america is irrelevant.
> you are a kiwi, who can't even be happy in your own
>country, so you've migrated to the UK, now you aren't even
>happy there, so you are trying to infiltrate america. it's
>sad really.

do you guys share dossiers on me or what??
look, skippy. the only reason i'm not happy in the UK is because of the weather, and the fact that i miss home.
As much as i resent giving you sheisty assholes more 'ammunition'; London's been good to me. i'm represented in a few galleries here, i've DJ'd in some of the biggest clubs in the world, and i've got an on-point literary agent representing me. i also have a brilliant flat, some excellent friends, and a beautiful girlfriend.
i've spent time in the US, and i definitely don't want to 'infiltrate' it. i've got a Kiwi passport, you fool. i'd have to be seriously self-hating to want to go and live in the States when i have one of those.


>-there are downtrodden in New Zealand, go back and help
>them.

can you say, "postal vote"?
beside, our country has a working welfare state, and is a world leader on sexual, environmental and scientific issues. they'll do fine while i'm gone.


>-that's apparent. and excuse me, but how was OUR culture
>FORCEd upon you? If i'm correct, you are espousing your
>anti-American pop culture rhetoric on an American artists
>website, consisting predominately of americans. Tell me who
>is forcing you to write on OUR site? Please, i'll take the
>sick fuck out myself, because nothing would please me more
>than to eradicate your anti-american sentiments from these
>boards.

my first memory is watching Sesame Street.
the first toys i remember owning were GI Joe, Transformers, Spiderman and Superman.
the first movie i remember seeing was Bambi.
the first record i ever bought was Run DMC. the first cassette was LL Cool J.
the fact that we even had a local entertainment industry wasn't apparent to me until i was 13.

the only reason i'm on here so much is because the artists represented on OKP are among my favourites. this might be a valid point if this was, i dunno, the MTV message boards. but considering this site has Aaron MacGruder on the front page, it's hardly a bastion of the mainstream American entertainment industry.
oh, and the traffic at hiphopnz.com can get a little bit slow, these boards are a lot more fun. (for one thing, if i did a post like this on there, all i'd get would be agreement. this is more fun.)

and i'll reiterate this for the hundredth time; being anti-Bush does NOT equal being anti-American. i don't know why you tosspots keep on thinking the two are synonomous... by this logic, over half the population of the US is anti-american.


>-so buy an elton john album and shut the fuck up. no one
>tells you to love our culture, you do it on your own.

....now that i have a choice, and now that i can limit my appreciation to a select group of artists. which i couldn't do in my younger years, the same as a lot of the world.

and what the hell has Elton John got to do with anything? if you'd said, i dunno, Scribe, King Kapisi, Nesian Mystik, Che Fu, the D4, Crowded House, Footsouljahs, Rhombus... well, you'd have a point. except i already have everything that all these Kiwi artists have released.


>so decide what the hell you can do for your own country and
>leave ours well enough alone KIWI.

i already covered this in another reply.
AMERICAN.

No, but I'm in my country, and it's only the citizens of this country whose opinion matters in such issues as electing the president.

<--- The Miami Dolphins' season (0-6 and counting)

The Fellowship of the Fins:
absence, Al_Tru_Ist, BreezeBoogie, dank_reggae, Drewmathic, Ir_Cuba, LML, MIAthinker, Robert, Roofdogg10, Sandbox194, wonderl33t, xenophobia

or just the US?

>or just the US?

<--- The Miami Dolphins' season (0-6 and counting)

The Fellowship of the Fins:
absence, Al_Tru_Ist, BreezeBoogie, dank_reggae, Drewmathic, Ir_Cuba, LML, MIAthinker, Robert, Roofdogg10, Sandbox194, wonderl33t, xenophobia

>No, but I'm in my country, and it's only the citizens of
>this country whose opinion matters in such issues as
>electing the president.

- If you elect a president that the rest of the world hates to do business with, than yes, it actually does matter what the rest of the world thinks. Bush is not good at diplomacy, he stinks. He destroyed all of the goodwill that America had post 9/11 and turned it into distrust.

The US isn't an island, it's part of this thing called earth, and like it or not you cannot completely ignore 6 billion people while you go about your business. That's why it's important to have a leader that understands how the world works.

>who the world is rooting for to be elected?

Cause if you choose the wrong guy, we'll fly planes into you. And maybe throw in a few dirty bombs for good measure.

aren't you the idiot who asked, "WHAT'S WRONG WITH ZIONISTS?"

when confronted your bitch ass disappeared from that post

when I asked that question, everyone just called me an idiot, there wasn't much discussion to be had.

<--- Wes Welker = God

The Fellowship of the Fins:
absence, Al_Tru_Ist, BreezeBoogie, dank_reggae, Drewmathic, Ir_Cuba, LML, MIAthinker, Robert, Roofdogg10, Sandbox194, wonderl33t, xenophobia

since you're a big instigator of discussion and all...

n/m

>they want Kerry for their own interests and for their
>liberal ideals... they don't give a fuck about America or

Sorry for being crude, but you must have such a hard on for the word liberal. I think you really limit yourself when you overuse such words as liberal and conservative because these words could never encapsulate anyone's wordly views. Additionally, everyone has their own take on what defines a conservative or liberal, so it's all relative.

>they want Kerry for their own interests and for their
>liberal ideals... they don't give a fuck about America or
>Americans
>

Consider this...Al Gore received more votes for President than any Democrat in the history of America....now, I think that could be used to say that America...at least in the manner that they have voted in the last 3 Presidential elections....Americans are more liberal than conservative. See, if America is actually more Conservative than liberal...I would think it's impossible for the Democrat to receive more votes in the last 3 Elections...

That being said.....you mentioned the "European libearal agenda" Wouldn't this mean that Europe and the American people actually have the same or similar agendas....

just a thought.

but this doesn't really help

the degree of xenophobia that the average yank is capable of.

that's some scary shit.

here's some of the responses that the Guardian received for the campaign they ran, getting Britons to write to voters in Clark County... (thanks skippy24, for pointing this out to me. i'll be writing to a lady this afternoon.)

of course there are heaps of positive responses, but they aren't as much fun to read.

let's enjoy some enlightened minds. reminds me of a few kids on here....
_______________________
Consider this: stay out of American electoral politics. Unless you would like a company of US Navy Seals - Republican to a man - to descend upon the offices of the Guardian, bag the lot of you, and transport you to Guantanamo Bay, where you can share quarters with some lonely Taliban shepherd boys.
United States

KEEP YOUR FUCKIN' LIMEY HANDS OFF OUR ELECTION. HEY, SHITHEADS, REMEMBER THE REVOLUTIONARY WAR? REMEMBER THE WAR OF 1812? WE DIDN'T WANT YOU, OR YOUR POLITICS HERE, THAT'S WHY WE KICKED YOUR ASSES OUT. FOR THE 47% OF YOU WHO DON'T WANT PRESIDENT BUSH, I SAY THIS ... TOUGH SHIT!
PROUD AMERICAN VOTING FOR BUSH!

Hey England, Scotland and Wales,
Mind your own business. We don't need weenie-spined Limeys meddling in our presidental election. If it wasn't for America, you'd all be speaking German. And if America would have had a president, then, of the likes of Kerry, you'd all be goose-stepping around Buckingham Palace. YOU ARE NOT WANTED!! Whether you want to support either party. BUTT OUT!!!
United States

Please be advised that I have forwarded this to the CIA and FBI.
United States

THE AMERICAN TAXPAYERS HAVE SPENT TRILLIONS OF DOLLARS PROTECTING THE PEOPLES OF THE EU, AND WHAT DO WE GET IN RETURN. BETRAYAL, BETRAYAL, BETRAYAL. I HAVE BEEN TO YOUR COUNTRY, THE COUNTRY OF MY ANCESTORS, AND I KNOW WHY THEY LEFT.

MAY YOU HAVE TO HAVE A TOOTH CAPPED. I UNDERSTAND IT TAKES AT LEAST 18 MONTHS FOR YOUR GREAT MEDICAL SERVICES TO GET AROUND TO YOU. HAVE A GREAT DAY.
Harlan, Kentucky
(umm, it took them 12 days to get round to my *free* dental work, Harlan. but, hey, you're named Harlan, so i'll let that slide.)

Keep your noses out of our business. As I recall we kicked your asses out of our country back in 1776. We do not require input from losers and idiots on who we vote for in our own country. Fuck off and die asshole!!!!!
Knoxville, Iowa

Who in the hell do you think you are??? Well, I'll tell you, you're a bunch of meddling socialist pricks! Stay the hell out of our country and politics. And another thing, John Kerry is a worthless lying sack of crap so it doesn't surprise me that a socialist rag like yours would back him. I hope your cynical ploy blows up in your cowardly faces, you bunch of mealy-mouthed morons!
United States

I used to visit the UK every year. I love the history and culture of your country. But after I heard about your campaign to influence our elections, I've decided that neither myself, nor my family will ever visit again. I'm offended by your campaign and because of it, I'm remembering more of the negative aspects I've seen in the UK than the positive ones. Though I still love the castles!
Detroit


YAY FOR OPEN-MINDEDNESS!

"I used to visit the UK every year. I love the history and culture of your country. But after I heard about your campaign to influence our elections, I've decided that neither myself, nor my family will ever visit again. I'm offended by your campaign and because of it, I'm remembering more of the negative aspects I've seen in the UK than the positive ones. Though I still love the castles!
Detroit"

This chump, lives in detroit, and is able to complain about the UK how? He cant write properly and loves 'the castles.' Im surprised this idiot could get it together enought to leave his country in the first place.

for real though, if it was Americans writing to other countries, telling them how to vote, they'd be pissed off too

all we're doing is writing some polite letters. we're not holding them at gunpoint or staging some kind of coup d'etat (which i believe is a firm favourite with the CIA). you'd think we'd flown a plane into the white house from the way some people are reacting.

and yeah, you have a valid point

but there are still global issues at stake here. and as long as US voters are aware that some of these issues (e.g, environmental issues) matter to people outside the US.. well, i think that's the most important thing.

whether or not they choose to give a shit is entirely up to them.

a lot of Americans already think of the rest of the world in an adversarial way. However well-intentioned it is (and honestly, it strikes me as more than a little condescending), it's counter-productive. Unless the point is just to feel superior to those provincial, ignorant, easily-riled Americans.

Besides, Bin Laden wants people to vote for Bush, so the post title isn't entirely true.

. However well-intentioned it is (and
>honestly, it strikes me as more than a little
>condescending), it's counter-productive.

I read the follow up article to this, that made a very good point. What sort of idiot changes their mind on who they are voting for, simply because they feel threatened by a foreigner writing a letter? They might realise that Bush is not who they want, but they wouldnt suddenly vote for him just to be contrary...

They might realise that Bush is
>not who they want, but they wouldnt suddenly vote for him
>just to be contrary...

And I dunno what world you live in, but Americans are not the only ones who would do this. There are stubborn jackasses of all nationalities.

influence the senate and house elections as well?

because in our form of government, the President wields only so much power. But of course you knew that, you are a new zealand scholar!

not sure what that portends for your own sexuality.

telling is what the US does...

n/m

n/m

to you it may seem like you're "asking", and the U.S. is the only one who "tells" people what to do, but you're coming off as pretty condescending and self-righteous. If what you really want is Bush out of office, this type of thing doesn't help. If all you really want is to feel superior to Americans by mocking them on the internet, then carry on. I know the temptation to mock Wonder33lt is a strong one, but you're better served doing something productive.

because its fun. Hopefully most Americans dont think that way, and frown upon the citizens that do.

Most people on this board agree with the sentiments in the article.

My aim isnt to condescend anyone. In fact, the letter writing part of the article was a minute one which people seemed to focus on. The hypocrisy of many of the responses to this is obvious and massive. The US has a right to an opinion on how Afghanistan or Iraq should be run, and who they should or shouldnt elect, but the rest of the world does not have the right to do the same to the states.

Its typical that instead of at least considering "Why do these people care so much?, perhaps we could do better business and have better relations with other countries if we didnt have the current president," they think "We are the most powerful country in the world, and if we want to elect an idiot, we will and fuck the rest of the world." Where is the humility in this vastly christian country?

Even the more open minded minds are so imbreded in the American culture. "us" and "them".
It can not be escaped I guess.
Meaning, you do raise up to defend when "foreigners" criticize the state of affairs of the country.
The truth is that whatever happens here does affect the rest of the world. And yes, the world has an eye on American elections.
I don't think anyone wants to dictate the outcome of elections here, but their message is that America is the greatest world power, its status can not be ignored, DC policies does effect the rest of the world, they don't see as beneficiary for everybody's sake to have another 4 years of neo-con hawks.
btw, America did intervene in other country's elections by having diplomatic pressure adadpted.


It's tempting to get after some okps, but is it productive?
No.
But it's madness what they are saying

I want Bush out of office very badly, because I think it will make the world much more safe. However, writing Americans letters from foreign countries saying "this is how we feel, we'd really like you to think about voting this way" is only going to piss them off. It's hypocritical as all hell, but it is what it is. And you need those American citizens to be focused on being pissed off at Bush and the crappy job he's done of running this country, efforts like this get the average American back to Bush's side. I don't like it, but I'm more focused right now on getting Bush out of office. Discussions on how xenophobic and ignorant Americans are in general should be tabled for the next couple of weeks, for the cause of a greater good.

obviously. The ones who are tend to be Bush voters. And they are always going to vote for someone like him.

I have travelled in the states, and had a great time generally. I found the people friendly and kind and reasonable. Until one broaches certain issues. All of a sudden these people turn into rabid nutters and start frothing at the mouth. The internet is a good place to discuss this stuff because people say things on here they wouldnt ever say in real life.

To be honest, I would never have brought up the ignorance, xenophobia, or any of that had I not been actively confronted with examples of it right here in this post.

Respect man.

because I have respect for tohunga and insanejake, but it can be very irritating to have people sniping at your country and its citizens all the time. I'm far from a nationalist, but I still do love America, and what it could be, ideally. There's a balance to be struck between being Wonder33lt or Expertise, and being someone who spells america with three k's. And I think it would do Americans a lot of good to spend some time living in a foreign country, if at all possible, but I also think it would do people from other countries some good to take a road trip across America, or live in it but make sure not just to live in the cities, see the whole of the country and meet some of the people, so they could get a better understanding of who Americans really are and where they're coming from. I'm sounding a little too "we are the world" right now, so I'm gonna get off my soapbox and get some lunch.

part of the reason i feel so strongly about the current administration is that it doesn't gel with the people that i met in the States... it's not a good representation for your country to have on the world stage.

again, i like you guys.
which is why i don't want you to be attacked by terrorists again. and i don't want the rest of the world to hate you. and i want you to be able to travel freely across the globe without being scared for your safety because of where you're from.

and right now, it looks like Kerry is one step to making you safer in the world.

we only do it cos we like ya

>part of the reason i feel so strongly about the current
>administration is that it doesn't gel with the people that i
>met in the States... it's not a good representation for your
>country to have on the world stage.

-who have you ever met in the United States that 'gels' with Kerry?

>
>again, i like you guys.
>which is why i don't want you to be attacked by terrorists
>again. and i don't want the rest of the world to hate you.
>and i want you to be able to travel freely across the globe
>without being scared for your safety because of where you're
>from.
>

-i've been all over the globe, never been attacked except for one place: the United Kingdom. Something is seriously wrong with you self congratulating people. ARe you sore because you blew your chance at hegemony? Are you mad you are in our shadow and will never become powerful again?

>and right now, it looks like Kerry is one step to making you
>safer in the world.
>
-HOW SO? please tell me one way that stiff could make a gerbal feel safe, let alone a nation!

>we only do it cos we like ya

-well thanks, but your patronizing extensions are unecessary. WE did the European appeasement era, it was called the Clinton Administration. It's a new day bruh...

I mean, you expect the Iraqis to....

i'll make an exception for the ultranationalist weirdo conservatives that stalk me on these boards.


edit: i'm a Kiwi, i'm not British. i thought you knew that. but then again, you didn't even see that big ole' tag on the page that's screaming out "problems logging in?".... so i shouldn't give you too much credit. skippy.

>KEEP YOUR FUCKIN' LIMEY HANDS OFF OUR ELECTION. HEY,
>SHITHEADS, REMEMBER THE REVOLUTIONARY WAR? REMEMBER THE WAR
>OF 1812?


WTF does that have to do with 2004....comedy...

>Hey England, Scotland and Wales,
> Mind your own business. We don't need weenie-spined
>Limeys meddling in our presidental election. If it wasn't
>for America, you'd all be speaking German. And if America
>would have had a president, then, of the likes of Kerry,
>you'd all be goose-stepping around Buckingham Palace.

First off had Iraq ATTACKED US like JAPAN did, this would lead to a COMPLETELY SET OF CIRCUMSTANCES, that we invaded IRAQ with.
Iraq violated UN law...
JAPAN ATTACKED US...

big difference there..



YOU
>ARE NOT WANTED!! Whether you want to support either party.
>BUTT OUT!!!
>United States
>
>Please be advised that I have forwarded this to the CIA and
>FBI.
>United States
>
>THE AMERICAN TAXPAYERS HAVE SPENT TRILLIONS OF DOLLARS
>PROTECTING THE PEOPLES OF THE EU, AND WHAT DO WE GET IN
>RETURN. BETRAYAL, BETRAYAL, BETRAYAL. I HAVE BEEN TO YOUR
>COUNTRY, THE COUNTRY OF MY ANCESTORS, AND I KNOW WHY THEY
>LEFT.

Did England attack us ?

holy shit, citizens around the WORLD actually DISAGREED with a decision we made..this is BETRAYAL !!!

lol

straight comedy...

do you know how Hitlerish u sound...

and u shit about the left and liberals and socialists...( of which I am neither..cuz both sides have a point..)



>
>I used to visit the UK every year. I love the history and
>culture of your country. But after I heard about your
>campaign to influence our elections, I've decided that
>neither myself, nor my family will ever visit again.


Now imagine if the world stopped coming here because, we influence WAYYYYYYYY More elections than you are admitting...

shiiet the US has had influence in almost every latin american country's election....

panama...we put noriega in...and took him out...

cuba...bay of pigs..we tried taking him out...

peru...

columbia...

dude you are STRAIGHT COMEDY...

you are bitchin over some poll NO ONE CARES about...

I am a US citizen and I can give a shit what the world thinks..I have MY OWN OPINION, which is something that Mr. Bush doesnt like, because my opinion doesnt agree with his...

if disagreeing means i am left, then so be it..

you on the other hand are a hypocrite and a moron...

you really think that the bullshit poll should insult you, but the shit we do in other nations isnt far worse ?




>YAY FOR OPEN-MINDEDNESS!

Don't you know that it's okay for America to stage coups and dictate the way the world should be run, but it's not okay for non-Americans to state their opinions about American politics? It envokes such thoughtful respones such as "Fuck the foreigners!".

see posts 73 and 76.

they dont live here.

Before posting?

" It may not be our business but you have to look out for you fellow man. "

-msclman's sig.

.

You're fired.

---------------------------------
GET OUT OF MY FACE! - Zell Miller

...with well-meaning letters from Guardian readers. I read the Guardian, have for years, but this whole thing pissed me off enough as to make me write an angry letter to the editor, which is the sort of thing I wasn't planning on being enough of a sad wanker to do for at least another 20-odd years.

It just seems so completely patronising, paternalistic, and generally pissant-y. But most of all, counter-productive. The only people I can imagine being happy to receive this unsolicited 'friendly advice' would be people who are already leaning strongly towards Kerry. The undecided I think could actually be swayed towards voting for Bush, simply as a 'Fuck You' response. And from what I've seen of the responses on the Guardian site to this initiative, that HAS pretty much been the flavour.

I think they should send a friendly apology to everyone who's been sent one of these letters. And maybe a case of beer.

www.urtheory.co.uk - Notes Towards a Grand Unified Review of Everything..

which is annoying, because i wanted the focus of this post to be about world opinions and that poll.

conversely, though, I would welcome any letters from Americans telling me why I should vote for Charles Kennedy in the next UK elections.

..like that will ever happen.

n/m

The undecided I
>think could actually be swayed towards voting for Bush,
>simply as a 'Fuck You' response.

People who were going to vote kerry anyway, wont change their mind. People who were going to vote Bush, probably wont either. And for those who (for some reason) dont already know, every little helps.

It's been a little over 200 years since we fought a war so that the King of England couldn't tell us what to do. You think Americans are eager to get "electoral guidance" from Brits? The point isn't that all Americans think this way, but that it's more likely for an undecided voter to react negatively to this type of thing. However well-intentioned it is (and I'm not sure it's really THAT well-intentioned), it's very ill thought-out. If you really want Bush out of office, the best thing you can do is NOT write letters to Americans in swing states, advising them on how you wish they'd vote.

Is any of this making sense to you, or are you still seeing it as Americans being "petty" or "xenophobic"? Because if it's not clicking for you beyond those levels at this point, I dunno what else I can do to explain it.

anyone who would actually decide to vote for Bush because a foreigner sent them a letter saying vote for Kerry is indeed petty.

but if the point was to help get Bush out of office, I think this effort did more harm than good.

If the point was to feel superior to those provincial, easily riled Americans, then good show.

>but if the point was to help get Bush out of office, I think
>this effort did more harm than good.

Why? At worst, someone who wasnt going to vote for Kerry wont vote for him. Unless these people are seriously petty.

>
>If the point was to feel superior to those provincial,
>easily riled Americans, then good show.

I dont need to post to do that (JOKING!!!) I dont feel superior to any entire nation.

>>but if the point was to help get Bush out of office, I think
>>this effort did more harm than good.
>
>Why? At worst, someone who wasnt going to vote for Kerry
>wont vote for him. Unless these people are seriously petty.
That's not really true. It could easily take an undecided who's on the fence, and piss them off enough that they vote for Bush just as a reaction. Or stay home entirely. Americans don't react well to people from other countries telling them what to do. It's hypocritical, but it's true.

It could easily take an undecided
>who's on the fence, and piss them off enough that they vote
>for Bush just as a reaction.

All the arguments on here are that Europeans shouldnt have a right to influence what Americans think and how they vote. And yet, these people are going to do just that? I give them a bit more credit...

I give them
>a bit more credit...
If there's one thing Americans like to do, it's be contrary and piss off foreigners just because they can.

Just think of BuildingBlock: He's a fairly typical undecided (well he probably won't even vote anyway). But think of that mindset. You know he'd go vote the other way just to piss you off.

Its a shame that the rest of the world doesnt.

whatever choice they make, you're gonna get it too. Shit like this, it may feel like you're "just doing what you can", "trying to give them a bigger perspective", whatever. It's counterproductive. If what you really want is no more Bush, find more constructive ways to go about it. The urge to get Bush out is commendable, but a letter-writing campaign to undecideds in Ohio is not smart. It makes the Guardian and its readers, who I'm sure fancy themselves relatively educated, look like a bunch of dilettantes. I generally like the Guardian, and agree with its political views much moreso than I do the mainstream here. But this is just straight foolish.

Go 'head and wash your hands of Americans and their pettiness though.

i mean, i agree with you on the foolishness of the letter-writing thing.

but it sounds like you know a better thing we could do.... i'm curious

i think there should be a campaign where OKplayers write to UK voters and ask them to vote for Charles Kennedy in the next election. i can get some addresses together and shit, lol

http://slate.msn.com/id/2102724/

this article seems to suggest that any kind of donation, if you don't have U.S. citizenship, is out of the question

And it's pretty much too late, at this stage, to do much else. I wonder if you could contact someone in the DNC (or some other political party, or a group like moveon.org) for future elections, offering to do some sort of volunteer work for them. As long as you're not compensated with money, this article suggests it's legal.

assuming most of those people writing letters are british

shouldn't they be more worried about electing somebody in their country who isn't a complete US puppet? Seriously, they're trying to tell us how to vote when they can't even elect a decent candidate themselves? What amazing arrogance.

the guardian is anti-blair. Please write letters to people intending on voting blair. When the time comes. In the meantime, bush is the biggest threat, and the opportunity to get rid of him comes much sooner.

>the guardian is anti-blair. Please write letters to people
>intending on voting blair. When the time comes. In the
>meantime, bush is the biggest threat, and the opportunity to
>get rid of him comes much sooner.

so you guys would love it if we all wrote letters telling you not to be idiots and vote against blair?

isn't this just the same kind of arrogance, that we feel we know what's best for everybody, that you guys always decry americans for?

>so you guys would love it if we all wrote letters telling you >not to be idiots and vote against blair?

I hope we dont need to be told, but please please do. Another four years of this donkey would make me cry.

>isn't this just the same kind of arrogance, that we feel we >know what's best for everybody, that you guys always decry >americans for?

We arent invading your country, sending "intelligence" agents to influence your regime, boycotting American goods etc...
Also, the best responses, the ones that the Guardian picked (that are linked in the follow up reply) dont say that we know what is best for everyone, and dont say that Americans are idiots. Have a read...

i find it funny reading posts from folks saying that foreigners should mind their own business in regards to amerikkka's presidential election. Amerikkka is NOTORIOUS for getting involved in the political affairs of other countries either by covert operations, military force, bribery, "silent" coups, assassinations and etc which is far worse than someone writing a letter. This is a fact that can't be denied. If you are going to tell foreigners to shut the fuck up about amerikkka's presidential tell your amerikkkan government to stay the fuck out of the affairs of other countries. Practice what you preach and stop being a HYPOCRITE.

.

motherfuckers on that that F.B.S. in here.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,,1331922,00.html

Here are some of the best letters that were sent:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,,1331922,00.html

and the two links are identical

"We set out to get people talking and thinking about the impact of the US election on citizens of other countries, and that is what we have done."


"Got to run now - the Finnish local elections are coming up on Sunday."

time to let this post die now.

*plants gravestone, pours out a little liquor*

n/m