http://offthebench.nbcsports.com/2011/03/08/jalen-rose-i-hated-duke-they-only-recruited-black-players-who-were-uncle-toms/

They’re college basketball’s most talked about team that never won anything, known as the Fab Five, Michigan’s 1991 recruiting class which included Jalen Rose, Jimmy King, Ray Jackson, Chris Webber and Juwan Howard. Interesting to see that 18 years later, they still harbor some bitterness over what they weren’t able to accomplish. With special acrimony still reserved for Duke. Rose, King and Jackson appeared on ESPN’s First Take this morning to discuss 30 for 30’s documentary on the Fab Five that will air on Sunday.

About midway through the First Take segment, they played a clip from the documentary in which Rose says:

“For me, Duke was personal. I hated Duke. And I hated everything I felt Duke stood for. Schools like Duke didn’t recruit players like me. I felt like they only recruited black players that were Uncle Toms.”

Asked about the comment, Rose didn’t exactly backtrack, but elaborated:

“Well, certain schools recruit a typical kind of player whether the world admits it or not. And Duke is one of those schools. They recruit black players from polished families, accomplished families. And that’s fine. That’s okay. But when you’re an inner-city kid playing in a public school league, you know that certain schools aren’t going to recruit you. That’s one. And I’m okay with it. That’s how I felt as an 18-year-old kid.”

Hard to know where to start here. First, obviously you’re not “okay with it,” because if you were you wouldn’t still sound so bitter. For their parts, King and Jackson agreed, Jackson saying that he appreciates now “what has accomplished,” but he still hates them.

Looks like an interesting documentary. The Fab Five brought a “hip-hop flavor” to the game and changed it in many ways, but never won a Big Ten or national championship. Ironically, they’re probably best known for Webber’s phantom time out call against North Carolina in 1993, and a huge NCAA rules scandal that resulted a few years later in the firing of coach Steve Fisher and several sanctions against the school.

I’m not even going to get into the sadness of Rose playing the “Uncle Tom” card. That’s just beneath you, Jalen, in so many ways.
_________________________
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http://twitter.com/KMBReferee
http://www.formspring.me/KMBReferee

_______________________________

>About midway through the First Take segment, they played a
>clip from the documentary in which Rose says:
>
>“For me, Duke was personal. I hated Duke. And I hated
>everything I felt Duke stood for. Schools like Duke didn’t
>recruit players like me. I felt like they only recruited black
>players that were Uncle Toms.”
>
>Asked about the comment, Rose didn’t exactly backtrack, but
>elaborated:
>
>“Well, certain schools recruit a typical kind of player
>whether the world admits it or not. And Duke is one of those
>schools. They recruit black players from polished families,
>accomplished families. And that’s fine. That’s okay. But when
>you’re an inner-city kid playing in a public school league,
>you know that certain schools aren’t going to recruit you.
>That’s one. And I’m okay with it. That’s how I felt as an
>18-year-old kid.”
>_________________________
>http://expertise.blogdrive.com
>http://twitter.com/KMBReferee
>http://www.formspring.me/KMBReferee

for the 4th time this week

nm

that part keeps getting lost in the shuffle

now to couch the language better, throw some caveats in there or whatnot, but basically he felt like Duke's program didn't value players with backgrounds like his so his reflexive attitude was 'fuck you, too".

that shit is logic.

'sad that he played the uncle tom card'.

i'm sad that anybody is using that sad ass 'card' shit as a qualifier in any type of racial discussion. foh w/ that disingenuous bullshit.



peace & blessings,

x.

www.twitter.com/poetx

=========================================
** i move away from the mic to breathe in

>'sad that he played the uncle tom card'.
>
>i'm sad that anybody is using that sad ass 'card' shit as a
>qualifier in any type of racial discussion. foh w/ that
>disingenuous bullshit.
>
SAY MOTHERFUCKING WORD. People throw that shit around to immediately dismiss or diminish something that they either cannot understand or refuse to attempt to do so. if your ass is white and has NOT been discriminated in large scale by a racial group, how the fuck you gonna tell someone who HAS been, that they're "playing the race/tom/whatever card?" this motherfucking shit ain't a game. and it sure as shit ain't like playing said "card" results in a "win"

fuck ALL the way out of here

Thank you!!!!!!!!!

And I agree with him 100%

Bitter naw nigga he hit the nail on the head.

No.

Grant Hill? Yep.

Harrison Barnes even? Yep.

Sherron Collins? Nope

Nothing wrong with that....that's just how they recruit. But let's not pretend it don't exist.

He was the only one of the Fab 5 who took actual
Michigan classes as a Freshman, and had something like a
3.0 when he left (barely studied at all)

And was by most accounts he was a pretty good kid.

He would have fit.

But I definitely see your point. Just pointing out that
Jalen wasn't as far from a Duke-type as he might have
appeared.


----------------------------

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O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

He just fronted like he was tough. He probably could've made it happen in the classroom too if he had to.

They would not have been able to play like they did though.

K can do whatever he wants. It's his school. He built the program. When you stray from your formula, that's when shit can get awry. Tubby did that a couple of times and it blew up in his face, (Rashard Carruth, Jason Parker).

and it wasn't an "inner-city" school, either. Detroit Country Day School was/is a magnet high school to showcase athletes and brainiacs.

Them cats got scholarships (tuition was $15k when I went to HS 15 years ago) and bussed in. I went to SCS down the street from them, DCDS wasn't in any part of the actual city of Detroit.

Webb and Battier both went there, and neither are intellectual slouches. The real knucklehead bammas never got the invite.

.

Jeremy Battier is a Yellowjacket too...and played for Duke as well (football tho)
_______________________________

duke would NEVER recruit a guy like Jalen , ever

From what I understand, Howard kept on taking courses through Michigan (distance learning, of course) during his rookie year with the Wizards and ended up graduating "on time."

#justsayin

*shrug*

.

i mean i dunno nor do i care enough to look into it

but seems like there would be WAAAY more of a pool to look @ if they did so because they dont...isnt that harming Duke

aka why be mad abt it

this has to be perception not reality.

Grant Hill, who was on both Duke teams who
beat UNLV and Michigan:


a) Had a better crossover dribble than anyone
on the Fab 5 or UNLV


b) Had a higher vertical leap than anyone on
the Fab 5 or UNLV


c) Had he not been hurt, would have easily
been a NBA better player than anyone on UNLV
or the Fab 5 (not sure how niggas forgot
Grant Hill leading the league in all star
voting and putting up 27-7-7 while not being
a ball hog like Lebron)


d) Has done more for the black community than
anyone on the UNLV or the Fab 5


No one in here loved the Fab 5, and especially Jalen
Rose, more than me, but my crusade against nigga shit
has made me start to realize something about this whole
UNLV-Fab 5 shit: Those stories really aren't that
interesting.

The interesting story about BOTH teams is the rise of
Coach K and Duke. That is the real story.

A bunch of goofy ass hood niggas isn't newsworthy.

Duke, an ivy-caliber academic institution (so is Michigan,
but not for athletes), without a great sports reputation,
with well-behaved athletes, punking the shit out of hood
niggas and showing that you can recruit kids who buy into
a system and STILL beat raw athleticism, is really the most
interesting aspect of all of this.

And like Basa and Longo point out -- Duke kids' off the court
excellence ethers just about everyone else.

but it's a great "what if?" discussion.

>but it's a great "what if?" discussion.

>but it's a great "what if?" discussion.

Grant Hill was a better player. Its really
not debatable.

----------------------------

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O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

could grant hill do more stuff? sure.

was he as unstoppable as larry johnson? HELL no.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=johnsla02&p2=barklch01

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=johnsla02&p2=malonka01

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=johnsla02&p2=colemde01

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=johnsla02&p2=kempsh01

as evidenced by him capping his potential as a rate he already producing at before he got hurt.

He woulda have ended his career...where on the list
of forwards all time?

Grant easily would have ended as one of the 5 best
small forwards ever. Easily.

I can't say the same for Larry Johnson at any position.

No knock on LJ. He was a beast.

But Grant was something special.

----------------------------

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O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

I dont think LJ had a chance to surpass Barkley or Malone and probably slim against KG and Dirk (though sort of hybrid forwards, along with Elgin Baylor) but he could have made it into say the top ... 10? 12? That's about where I'd put Hill's potential, too. He was never going to reach the level of Bird or Dr. J.

but Hill has shown more (variety, exposion, creativity, whatever) in his career than LJ did.

"The best index to a person's character is how he treats people who can't do him any good & how he treats people who can't fight back"-Abigail Van Buren

I'm Certified

how u sound/look


be not afraid, your destiny awaits


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laters

_________________________________________________________________________
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twitter.com/LetsStay2Gether

also on Facebook

I WILL NOT LET YOU FORGET IT

duke but would never front on them two.

peace & blessings,

x.

www.twitter.com/poetx

=========================================
** i move away from the mic to breathe in

_______________________________

yeah, you right.

in fact, I'd say he was considered unlikeable by most, Reddick & Laettner were probably the only ones more hated then him.

_______________________________

>_______________________________

his whole underclassmen rep was taking charges. gay....

top tier athletics.

Soccer, football, basketball, lacrosse, fuckin competitive hula-hooping, lol.

Yes, those Duke teams were lily-white for the most part. But they were lily-white ATHLETES who were still in the top 20% of people who played organized ball. It not like those dudes were the athletic equivalent of Chuck from accounting

I feel your hatred of the glorification of mythologized "hood shit", but I think your hatred should be pointed toward the coaches, institutions, and companies that profit like a mufucka from taking a snapshot of these kids at the base of their potential and then proceed to pimp the shit out of them without developing them.

>top tier athletics.
>
>Soccer, football, basketball, lacrosse, fuckin competitive
>hula-hooping, lol.

LOL @ hula hooping

>Yes, those Duke teams were lily-white for the most part. But
>they were lily-white ATHLETES who were still in the top 20% of
>people who played organized ball. It not like those dudes
>were the athletic equivalent of Chuck from accounting

Definitely

>I feel your hatred of the glorification of mythologized "hood
>shit", but I think your hatred should be pointed toward the
>coaches, institutions, and companies that profit like a
>mufucka from taking a snapshot of these kids at the base of
>their potential and then proceed to pimp the shit out of them
>without developing them.

Oh, definitely. The kids are kids. I have no problem with
them. And other than hanging with some shady characters,
most of the UNLV-Michigan kids were good kids.

I'm just saying that if the purpose is to turn black kids
into real well-rounded citizens, give me Coach K. He even
has a community center that be doing outreach in the hood
parts of Durham.




----------------------------

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O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

>I'm just saying that if the purpose is to turn black kids
>into real well-rounded citizens, give me Coach K.

I'd take dean smith over coach k, tho

Coach K is/was a lil to patrician with it, and he never really got his kids ready for the NBA

in the real world. Those kids were changed by their experience at Michigan. We've seen a lot of kids who come from tough backgrounds grow up & mature in Ann Arbor. That's what it's really all about.


>
>Oh, definitely. The kids are kids. I have no problem with
>them. And other than hanging with some shady characters,
>most of the UNLV-Michigan kids were good kids.
>
>I'm just saying that if the purpose is to turn black kids
>into real well-rounded citizens, give me Coach K. He even
>has a community center that be doing outreach in the hood
>parts of Durham.
>
>
>
>
>----------------------------
>
>Young Broadway Star Urgently Needs a Bone Marrow Donor. Is it
>you? http://MatchShannon.com/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"
>
>
>
>
>"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."
>
>(C)Keith Murray, "


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
<---- 5....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dlgiritpmfo

>top tier athletics.
>
>Soccer, football, basketball, lacrosse, fuckin competitive
>hula-hooping, lol.
>
>Yes, those Duke teams were lily-white for the most part. But
>they were lily-white ATHLETES who were still in the top 20% of
>people who played organized ball. It not like those dudes
>were the athletic equivalent of Chuck from accounting
>
>I feel your hatred of the glorification of mythologized "hood
>shit", but I think your hatred should be pointed toward the
>coaches, institutions, and companies that profit like a
>mufucka from taking a snapshot of these kids at the base of
>their potential and then proceed to pimp the shit out of them
>without developing them.

EXACTLY. denny crum type niggas.

i remember when willie glass (st. johns, under carneseca) went to the lakers. i forget who was the coach (might have been westhead, like, right before riley / lakeshow era) said this kid had the WORST fundamentals he'd ever seen.

but if you watched college ball back in the day, they stayed propping carneseca like he was the dude. and john thompson was talked about more in terms of his demeanor, and 'hoya paranoia' and all that bullshit, and you'd never think he ever drew up an x nor an o.

that's that shit.


peace & blessings,

x.

www.twitter.com/poetx

=========================================
** i move away from the mic to breathe in

>
>Grant Hill, who was on both Duke teams who
>beat UNLV and Michigan:
>
>
>a) Had a better crossover dribble than anyone
>on the Fab 5 or UNLV

It really wasn't his handles as much as it was his first step going either right or left. You couldn't stop him, it's not like he had streetball handles. The only deception in it was the element of surprise of here is and now he's gone. You couldn't stop that.

>
>b) Had a higher vertical leap than anyone on
>the Fab 5 or UNLV
>

Not sure about that one, unless there are pre-draft camp measurements. Some of these dudes verts would amaze you. Augmon and LJ had crazy bunnies so did Jimmy and Webb.

>c) Had he not been hurt, would have easily
>been a NBA better player than anyone on UNLV
>or the Fab 5 (not sure how niggas forgot
>Grant Hill leading the league in all star
>voting and putting up 27-7-7 while not being
>a ball hog like Lebron)
>

I don't know about the easily part. Pre-back injury LJ was one of the baddest young dudes on the planet and cats couldn't guard him. If it wasn't for injury and Zo feud the Hornets would've been set up to compete with the Bulls in the East. That's real talk.

And C-Webb was nasty as well. Lost something with the microfacture but was still good. And Grant didn't get out of the first round until last year. Grant was good, but we might be re-writing history a bit.


>d) Has done more for the black community than
>anyone on the UNLV or the Fab 5
>

That's speculation as well. You really don't know what cats do charity wise. Some go the publicity route, some do things on the low.

that straw ass argument.

grant was the dude, and i agree that he woulda been better than all of them had he not hit the injuries. but grant is a different case. dude not only had a stable background, but he had an athletic pedigree as his father was an elite professional athlete (calvin hill, that came from the hood in baltimore and played for the cowboys in the nfl). it would be more apt to draw a comparison between grant hill as the prototype for kobe (father joe jellybean bryant was a solid baller for the sixers back in the day, yadda yadda).

making that comparison about grant is like comparing peyton (or bum ass eli) to some other qb prospect. athleticism, skill, etc., is gonna be the luck of the draw, but how do you account for polish and a lifetime of grooming in the intangibles between the mannings and some cat who came up being just better than everybody else, but may not have necessarily gotten the same quality of instruction?

now if you want to compare duke stylistically versus the more niggerish (you're words) teams, what is novel about that? ncaa been doing that since waaay back in the day. that's not a novel argument.

ever since dean smith was playing stall ball to keep the game manageable against more athletic squads this been the deal.

if you ARE gonna contrast styles, however, your argument would be incomplete without looking at how duke's aura affects their games *ahem* REFS *ahem*, versus how other squads' affects theirs.

there was another overwhelmingly white small university known for academic excellence who came out of nowhere to dominate an era of bball under a disciplinarian coach who was SERIOUS about the morality and life preparation of his student athletes. but they didn't get the calls. and that school was called georgetown.


if you wanna compare duke and michigan, i don't know of ANYONE who would say fisher was a better coach than k. nor tark over k. (although i personally saw tarkanian outcoach the hell outta lefty driesell's ass w/ that same class unlv squad when maryland had len bias and a buncha other cats, but NO coaching).

so fab 5 > duke in talent. < duke in polish. << duke in coaching <<< duke in refs/calls and all that shit = L for michigan != some kinda triumph yt-controlled ni&&as over hip hop ni&&as or whatever other reactionist type shit you tryna posit.





peace & blessings,

x.

www.twitter.com/poetx

=========================================
** i move away from the mic to breathe in

The responses are all more reactionary than anything
that I said.

Relax.

>grant was the dude, and i agree that he woulda been better
>than all of them had he not hit the injuries. but grant is a
>different case. dude not only had a stable background, but he
>had an athletic pedigree as his father was an elite
>professional athlete (calvin hill, that came from the hood in
>baltimore and played for the cowboys in the nfl). it would be
>more apt to draw a comparison between grant hill as the
>prototype for kobe (father joe jellybean bryant was a solid
>baller for the sixers back in the day, yadda yadda).

I'm not using Grant Hill to make the entire argument, and
don't have to, since he was the 3rd or 4th best player on
the Duke team who took down mighty UNLV. I don't need Grant
Hill.

Christian Laettner and Hurley were the ones pissing
all over UNLV. Grant Hill was basically Tayshaun Prince.

The Grant Hill led team lost to Nolan's Razorbacks in 94.
(He essentially got them there by himself).

I'm using Grant Hill to kick off the argument, because it
is quite ironic that Duke's narrative gets lost in all of
this, when its clearly more interesting than either UNLV
or Michigan's narrative. K has never been guilty of paying
players, breaking rules, which is another reason he recruits
certain kids. The image of the program is part of Duke's
mystique -- 20 years later, UNLV is lucky to still have
their 1990 title, and the Fab 5 era has been erased from
memory because the program was dirty.

Grant Hill is just an additional point of hilarity:

K recruited an "uncle tom,(and even I believed this)" who
was faster, more athletic, better NBA players,
and more influential in the black community than the
inner city kids with gold teeth and shit.

Its just ironic.

While the Fab 5 were getting money from boosters, Duke
kids were going to class, learning how to make millions
outside of basketball (Brian Davis, etc), and beating the
shit out of these dirty programs.

I'm saying that any SELF RESPECTING BLACK MAN should
acknowledge DUKE because it teaches the values that
we need in BLACK KIDS. And before you use the "background"
argument, let's consider that the only poor kids in the
Fab 5 were Jalen and Juwon. Like someone just pointed out,
Chris was middle class and Jimmy King/Ray Jackson were from
Texas Suburbs. Chris was absolutely Duke material. He's
actually extremely intelligent and insightful.

>making that comparison about grant is like comparing peyton
>(or bum ass eli) to some other qb prospect. athleticism,
>skill, etc., is gonna be the luck of the draw, but how do you
>account for polish and a lifetime of grooming in the
>intangibles between the mannings and some cat who came up
>being just better than everybody else, but may not have
>necessarily gotten the same quality of instruction?

Webber's upbringing wasn't substantially different than
a lot of Duke kids.

If anything, he was wildly out of place in the Fab 5,
and was socially awkward and uncomfortable. He just
happened to be a great player. When you think of the
Fab 5, you really think of Jalen Rose. He was the leader.

>now if you want to compare duke stylistically versus the more
>niggerish (you're words) teams, what is novel about that? ncaa
>been doing that since waaay back in the day. that's not a
>novel argument.

That's what is ironic: Duke's style isn't even any less
"niggerish." They run a mean, aggressive, man-on-man fuck
you defense. Its one of the gullier things in all of sports.

Coach K's nickname is "LOL? Zone? Nigga, STFU."

Another irony.

>ever since dean smith was playing stall ball to keep the game
>manageable against more athletic squads this been the deal.

Its different, though.


>if you ARE gonna contrast styles, however, your argument would
>be incomplete without looking at how duke's aura affects their
>games *ahem* REFS *ahem*, versus how other squads' affects
>theirs.

Ref-blaming. This is cute. No bad argument is complete without
ref-blaming.

>there was another overwhelmingly white small university known
>for academic excellence who came out of nowhere to dominate an
>era of bball under a disciplinarian coach who was SERIOUS
>about the morality and life preparation of his student
>athletes. but they didn't get the calls. and that school was
>called georgetown.

I love John Thompson. John Thompson didn't beat UNLV,
though. K did. And Ewing, Mourning, and Mutumbo are
each more talented than any big man in Duke history.

>if you wanna compare duke and michigan, i don't know of ANYONE
>who would say fisher was a better coach than k. nor tark over
>k. (although i personally saw tarkanian outcoach the hell
>outta lefty driesell's ass w/ that same class unlv squad when
>maryland had len bias and a buncha other cats, but NO
>coaching).

I already made that argument. The entire Duke aura is
about K.

>so fab 5 > duke in talent. < duke in polish. << duke in
>coaching <<< duke in refs/calls and all that shit = L for
>michigan != some kinda triumph yt-controlled ni&&as over hip
>hop ni&&as or whatever other reactionist type shit you tryna
>posit.

I don't care what equation we use.

I'm saying that we (me included) are all hyped to watch
2 documentaries about "renegade basketball teams who changed
the game forever."

When I sit and think about it, neither story is as interesting
as the team who beat both: Coach K's Duke Blue Devils. Their
team was far more revolutionary than either of those teams.

The rebellious teenager and/or black militant in all of us
makes us grin ear-to-ear watching these documentaries, but
the gulliest aspect has nothing to do with UNLV or Michigan.

The gulliest aspect of that entire era was the team of
well-dressed, well-spoken, educated, responsible kids who
played nasty man-to-man defense, would bust a jumper in your
eyeball, played hard for 48 minutes, and won more than either
"renegade" team.




----------------------------

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O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

a) Had a better crossover dribble than anyone
on the Fab 5 or UNLV

bullshit


b) Had a higher vertical leap than anyone on
the Fab 5 or UNLV

bullshit

c) Had he not been hurt, would have easily
been a NBA better player than anyone on UNLV
or the Fab 5 (not sure how niggas forgot
Grant Hill leading the league in all star
voting and putting up 27-7-7 while not being
a ball hog like Lebron)

highly debatable

d) Has done more for the black community than
anyone on the UNLV or the Fab 5

I honest have no idea and I doubt you do.

And as far as all that bullshit about Duke "teaching black kids values" is a joke too. Do you know anything about Grant Hill's parents? He would have the same guy if he had went to UNC, Georgetown or anywhere else.

If Coach K was really working wonders with young black kids he should have been about to take some inner city kids and turn them into something instead of targeting the kids that came from better backgrounds and were going to be successful anyway.

And lets not act like every former Duke player is making million dollar real estate moves like Brian Davis, he's one guy. Who are the other young black dudes that Coach K "molded" that are doing big things outside of basketball?

Bags and Longo got you drinking the kool-aid, fam.














>
>The responses are all more reactionary than anything
>that I said.
>
>Relax.
>
>>grant was the dude, and i agree that he woulda been better
>>than all of them had he not hit the injuries. but grant is a
>>different case. dude not only had a stable background, but
>he
>>had an athletic pedigree as his father was an elite
>>professional athlete (calvin hill, that came from the hood
>in
>>baltimore and played for the cowboys in the nfl). it would
>be
>>more apt to draw a comparison between grant hill as the
>>prototype for kobe (father joe jellybean bryant was a solid
>>baller for the sixers back in the day, yadda yadda).
>
>I'm not using Grant Hill to make the entire argument, and
>don't have to, since he was the 3rd or 4th best player on
>the Duke team who took down mighty UNLV. I don't need Grant
>Hill.
>
>Christian Laettner and Hurley were the ones pissing
>all over UNLV. Grant Hill was basically Tayshaun Prince.
>
>The Grant Hill led team lost to Nolan's Razorbacks in 94.
>(He essentially got them there by himself).
>
>I'm using Grant Hill to kick off the argument, because it
>is quite ironic that Duke's narrative gets lost in all of
>this, when its clearly more interesting than either UNLV
>or Michigan's narrative. K has never been guilty of paying
>players, breaking rules, which is another reason he recruits
>certain kids. The image of the program is part of Duke's
>mystique -- 20 years later, UNLV is lucky to still have
>their 1990 title, and the Fab 5 era has been erased from
>memory because the program was dirty.
>
>Grant Hill is just an additional point of hilarity:
>
>K recruited an "uncle tom,(and even I believed this)" who
>was faster, more athletic, better NBA players,
>and more influential in the black community than the
>inner city kids with gold teeth and shit.
>
>Its just ironic.
>
>While the Fab 5 were getting money from boosters, Duke
>kids were going to class, learning how to make millions
>outside of basketball (Brian Davis, etc), and beating the
>shit out of these dirty programs.
>
>I'm saying that any SELF RESPECTING BLACK MAN should
>acknowledge DUKE because it teaches the values that
>we need in BLACK KIDS. And before you use the "background"
>argument, let's consider that the only poor kids in the
>Fab 5 were Jalen and Juwon. Like someone just pointed out,
>Chris was middle class and Jimmy King/Ray Jackson were from
>Texas Suburbs. Chris was absolutely Duke material. He's
>actually extremely intelligent and insightful.
>
>>making that comparison about grant is like comparing peyton
>>(or bum ass eli) to some other qb prospect. athleticism,
>>skill, etc., is gonna be the luck of the draw, but how do
>you
>>account for polish and a lifetime of grooming in the
>>intangibles between the mannings and some cat who came up
>>being just better than everybody else, but may not have
>>necessarily gotten the same quality of instruction?
>
>Webber's upbringing wasn't substantially different than
>a lot of Duke kids.
>
>If anything, he was wildly out of place in the Fab 5,
>and was socially awkward and uncomfortable. He just
>happened to be a great player. When you think of the
>Fab 5, you really think of Jalen Rose. He was the leader.
>
>>now if you want to compare duke stylistically versus the
>more
>>niggerish (you're words) teams, what is novel about that?
>ncaa
>>been doing that since waaay back in the day. that's not a
>>novel argument.
>
>That's what is ironic: Duke's style isn't even any less
>"niggerish." They run a mean, aggressive, man-on-man fuck
>you defense. Its one of the gullier things in all of sports.
>
>Coach K's nickname is "LOL? Zone? Nigga, STFU."
>
>Another irony.
>
>>ever since dean smith was playing stall ball to keep the
>game
>>manageable against more athletic squads this been the deal.
>
>Its different, though.
>
>
>>if you ARE gonna contrast styles, however, your argument
>would
>>be incomplete without looking at how duke's aura affects
>their
>>games *ahem* REFS *ahem*, versus how other squads' affects
>>theirs.
>
>Ref-blaming. This is cute. No bad argument is complete
>without
>ref-blaming.
>
>>there was another overwhelmingly white small university
>known
>>for academic excellence who came out of nowhere to dominate
>an
>>era of bball under a disciplinarian coach who was SERIOUS
>>about the morality and life preparation of his student
>>athletes. but they didn't get the calls. and that school was
>>called georgetown.
>
>I love John Thompson. John Thompson didn't beat UNLV,
>though. K did. And Ewing, Mourning, and Mutumbo are
>each more talented than any big man in Duke history.
>
>>if you wanna compare duke and michigan, i don't know of
>ANYONE
>>who would say fisher was a better coach than k. nor tark
>over
>>k. (although i personally saw tarkanian outcoach the hell
>>outta lefty driesell's ass w/ that same class unlv squad
>when
>>maryland had len bias and a buncha other cats, but NO
>>coaching).
>
>I already made that argument. The entire Duke aura is
>about K.
>
>>so fab 5 > duke in talent. < duke in polish. << duke in
>>coaching <<< duke in refs/calls and all that shit = L for
>>michigan != some kinda triumph yt-controlled ni&&as over hip
>>hop ni&&as or whatever other reactionist type shit you tryna
>>posit.
>
>I don't care what equation we use.
>
>I'm saying that we (me included) are all hyped to watch
>2 documentaries about "renegade basketball teams who changed
>the game forever."
>
>When I sit and think about it, neither story is as
>interesting
>as the team who beat both: Coach K's Duke Blue Devils. Their
>team was far more revolutionary than either of those teams.
>
>The rebellious teenager and/or black militant in all of us
>makes us grin ear-to-ear watching these documentaries, but
>the gulliest aspect has nothing to do with UNLV or Michigan.
>
>The gulliest aspect of that entire era was the team of
>well-dressed, well-spoken, educated, responsible kids who
>played nasty man-to-man defense, would bust a jumper in your
>eyeball, played hard for 48 minutes, and won more than either
>"renegade" team.
>
>
>
>
>----------------------------
>
>Young Broadway Star Urgently Needs a Bone Marrow Donor. Is it
>you? http://MatchShannon.com/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"
>
>
>
>
>"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."
>
>(C)Keith Murray, "

>a) Had a better crossover dribble than anyone
>on the Fab 5 or UNLV

>bullshit

Yes, he did. Grant Hill was a better ball handler
than Jalen (by far) and had assist numbers better
than Greg Anthony in the pros. He was outstanding
handling the ball. To deny that is to never have
watched him play.


>b) Had a higher vertical leap than anyone on
>the Fab 5 or UNLV
>
>bullshit

Grant was definitely a better pure athlete
than Augmon, Johnson, Webber, or King. His
lateral quickness, hand quickness, and body
control were all exquisite.


>And as far as all that bullshit about Duke "teaching black
>kids values" is a joke too. Do you know anything about Grant
>Hill's parents? He would have the same guy if he had went to
>UNC, Georgetown or anywhere else.

Definitely.

>If Coach K was really working wonders with young black kids he
>should have been about to take some inner city kids and turn
>them into something instead of targeting the kids that came
>from better backgrounds and were going to be successful
>anyway.

Coach K isn't obligated to do a goddamn thing, because
college basketball is not a charity organization.

Plus, you missed my point:

By picking guys that people didn't think you COULD WIN
WITH and WINNING, he showed America that kids could be
well-rounded and still achieve athletically. That message
is a valuable one that's been lost.

Its odd -- me and you complain when the media highlights
negative images of blacks, then criticize Coach K because
he made sure to pick the Cosby Kids...I mean, isn't this
EXACTLY why we liked 'The Cosby Show?' I didn't see Bill
Cosby making a show about poor blacks. The reason that show
was so important is that it SHOWED AMERICA THAT THERE IS
ANOTHER REALITY FOR BLACKS.

Coach K's teams were on the NATIONAL STAGE and did the
SAME THING.

There was nothing NEW about seeing UNLV and Michigan type
niggas on the national stage, because I already knew those
types of kids. THey did nothing to expand my image of myself.

Seeing Grant Hill's BLACK family, Yale educated dad, Wellesly
educated mom, was completely NEW to me. Even Jalen Rose
said that it was JEALOUSY that fueled his hatred of Grant
Hill and Duke. We all want that reality, but he couldn't
have it.

I'm saying that, in hindsight, we probably could have LEARNED
from Duke instead of HATED Duke. Lots of valuable lessons there.

Matter of fact....nigga, ain't you the one who sympathized
with the coach who only picked black kids from two parent
homes?

BWAHAHAAH. I'm about to up that post. So basically you're
not different than Coach K and your hate in this post is
completely nonsensical.


And seriously -- I was raised like Jalen -- don't know
my father, single mother, poor. So I have the authority
to speak on this.


>And lets not act like every former Duke player is making
>million dollar real estate moves like Brian Davis, he's one
>guy. Who are the other young black dudes that Coach K "molded"
>that are doing big things outside of basketball?

Plenty.

>Bags and Longo got you drinking the kool-aid, fam.

Nah g.

----------------------------

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O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

to throw the bullshit flag.

>>a) Had a better crossover dribble than anyone
>>on the Fab 5 or UNLV
>
>>bullshit
>
>Yes, he did. Grant Hill was a better ball handler
>than Jalen (by far) and had assist numbers better
>than Greg Anthony in the pros. He was outstanding
>handling the ball. To deny that is to never have
>watched him play.


So average assists per game in the NBA is the indicator of who has the better crossover dribble? really??

>
>>b) Had a higher vertical leap than anyone on
>>the Fab 5 or UNLV
>>
>>bullshit
>
>Grant was definitely a better pure athlete
>than Augmon, Johnson, Webber, or King. His
>lateral quickness, hand quickness, and body
>control were all exquisite.

Again, what is this based on? Johnson, Augmon and Webber were all AMAZING athletes, equally if not better than Grant Hill.


>Coach K isn't obligated to do a goddamn thing, because
>college basketball is not a charity organization.
>
>Plus, you missed my point:
>
>By picking guys that people didn't think you COULD WIN
>WITH and WINNING, he showed America that kids could be
>well-rounded and still achieve athletically. That message
>is a valuable one that's been lost.


WTF? McDonald's All-Americans are people you can't win with now? lol

>Its odd -- me and you complain when the media highlights
>negative images of blacks, then criticize Coach K because
>he made sure to pick the Cosby Kids...I mean, isn't this
>EXACTLY why we liked 'The Cosby Show?' I didn't see Bill
>Cosby making a show about poor blacks. The reason that show
>was so important is that it SHOWED AMERICA THAT THERE IS
>ANOTHER REALITY FOR BLACKS.
>
>Coach K's teams were on the NATIONAL STAGE and did the
>SAME THING.


I'm not knocking anything Coach K did, just doing make him out to be the Mother Theresa for poor young black kids turning them into young men when the reality is that it is a known fact that he didn't recruit those type of kids.

>There was nothing NEW about seeing UNLV and Michigan type
>niggas on the national stage, because I already knew those
>types of kids. THey did nothing to expand my image of myself.
>
>Seeing Grant Hill's BLACK family, Yale educated dad, Wellesly
>educated mom, was completely NEW to me. Even Jalen Rose
>said that it was JEALOUSY that fueled his hatred of Grant
>Hill and Duke. We all want that reality, but he couldn't
>have it.

lol, back then did you really know where Grant Hill's mom went to school or did you even care? I think once again you might be projecting too much of your own personal issues into the discussion.

>So average assists per game in the NBA is the indicator of who
>has the better crossover dribble? really??

Yeah, that's what I said.

BWAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHA


>Again, what is this based on? Johnson, Augmon and Webber were
>all AMAZING athletes, equally if not better than Grant Hill.

No, they weren't. To deny that is to simply be a
liar. Grant Hill was clearly the best all around
athlete of the ones you just named. Clearly.


>WTF? McDonald's All-Americans are people you can't win with
>now? lol

LOL -- hey, there's a reason they were underdogs for
a long time.


>I'm not knocking anything Coach K did, just doing make him out
>to be the Mother Theresa for poor young black kids turning
>them into young men when the reality is that it is a known
>fact that he didn't recruit those type of kids.

Nice dodge. I didn't say anything of the sort, at all.



>lol, back then did you really know where Grant Hill's mom went
>to school or did you even care? I think once again you might
>be projecting too much of your own personal issues into the
>discussion.

No, that's part of the point, though. I did know that
Mr. Huxtable was an Obstetrician, though. We have selective
memories for the positive black shit we want to remember,
and there's no good reason for it. We should have been
rooting for Grant Hill to succeed (perhaps not against
UNLV/Michigan) the same way I enjoyed seeing a black
Obstetrician on television. I didn't root for Grant Hill.
I thought his steez was corny, and preferred the bald headed
losers with the black socks.

That was very stupid of me.

Hating on Duke, in hindsight, is pure stupidity.
There's nothing to hate on.

And if we're going to be all sentimental and start
looking back, why don't we take a look at the FULL
STORY. When I do so, the most interesting team in
that era was Duke, not Michigan. Not UNLV.

It makes sense if you sit back and aren't black
and mad about it.

----------------------------

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O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

Duke haters always respected his game.

Niggas hated Grant Hill and everyone else
on Duke

Y'all just making shit up after the fact because
you look like idiots for not being FANS of Grant
Hill, which is what every self respecting strong
black man SHOULD HAVE BEEN.

I know I rooted against that nigga, because I was
dumb ignorant fuck face. So were y'all. Difference
is, I admit it.

----------------------------

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O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

Snyder then Christian Laettner and Bobby Hurley. Honestly I wasn't even paying attention to Duke when Johnny Dawkins was there. The only non-local teams I paid attention to were G-Town and UNC.

Grant Hill was the first black player since Dawkins to really get any shine at Duke and that's mainly why most black didn't fuck with Duke back in the day.

say it ain't so, orb! say it ain't so!

>>And lets not act like every former Duke player is making
>>million dollar real estate moves like Brian Davis, he's one
>>guy. Who are the other young black dudes that Coach K
>"molded"
>>that are doing big things outside of basketball?
>
>Plenty.

>
>>And as far as all that bullshit about Duke "teaching black
>>kids values" is a joke too. Do you know anything about Grant
>>Hill's parents? He would have the same guy if he had went to
>>UNC, Georgetown or anywhere else.
>
>Definitely.

Wasn't Grant set to go to Georgetown until he visited and one of the academic advisors tried to give him a test to see if he could read?

.

This is how I know this debate is based on pure
emotion. I mean, you can argue that LJ was a
better player while still being able to admit
the basic fact that Grant Hill was the better
athlete.

The fact that y'all can't admit that sort of
tips me off to what's going on here.

Grant Hill was so superior in pure athleticism
(including leaping) to Larry Johnson that its not
even funny.

Larry had explosive leaps, but he wasn't made of
the same goods as Grant Hill. Grant had that pure
all around athleticism.

Larry had those "quick leaps" explosions. That's
different than pure leaping ability.


----------------------------

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O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

I don't really have a dog in this race but from what I recall, by measurement LJ was demonstratably better as a vertical leaper than Grant Hill was.

Now I can find that information right now & I'm going off memory, which is why I formed it as a question to see if someone else can recall it as well.

I swore LJ had damn near a 40-inch vert when he got to Charlotte but maybe I'm fucked up.

as being one of the best dunkers in college and was in a few dunk contests in the pros too. I wish I could find the link when he caught this SICK one handed oop against Arkansas. Grant Hill could dunk well off both legs where as Augmon was only a vertical dunker.


>I don't really have a dog in this race but from what I
>recall, by measurement LJ was demonstratably better as a
>vertical leaper than Grant Hill was.
>
>Now I can find that information right now & I'm going off
>memory, which is why I formed it as a question to see if
>someone else can recall it as well.
>
>I swore LJ had damn near a 40-inch vert when he got to
>Charlotte but maybe I'm fucked up.

>as being one of the best dunkers in college and was in a few
>dunk contests in the pros too.

Larry Johnson & Augmon were both in one dunk contest, Augmon came in last while LJ made the finals but they gave it to Ceballos with that blindfold bullshit.

And I wasn't talking best dunker anyway, just straight vertical.

dunker, he was often compared to Dominique because he was primarily a vertical jumper. Most of his highlights show him jumping and dunking off two legs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2QZBPcCxiA


>>as being one of the best dunkers in college and was in a
>few
>>dunk contests in the pros too.
>
>Larry Johnson & Augmon were both in one dunk contest, Augmon
>came in last while LJ made the finals but they gave it to
>Ceballos with that blindfold bullshit.
>
>And I wasn't talking best dunker anyway, just straight
>vertical.

unless its the Pre-draft camp or some type of test like that. They always got a surprise like Clarence Weatherspoon 42 inch vert. That's some shit we'll never know...lol

>unless its the Pre-draft camp or some type of test like that.
>They always got a surprise like Clarence Weatherspoon 42 inch
>vert. That's some shit we'll never know...lol

And being like, "Oh that nigga's vert is off the chain."

>They always got a surprise like Clarence Weatherspoon 42 inch
>vert.

Somebody just go ahead & toss Sharone Wright's name out there & pass me a fifth of somethin.

>Somebody just go ahead & toss Sharone Wright's name out there
>& pass me a fifth of somethin.


----------------------------

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O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

but in these cases (Spoon, Gilliam, Wright) I was more referring to guys who bring back ugly memories from their Sixer careers.

this argument really was over when it fit into the agenda of always taking Opie Taylor or Cosby Show motherfuckers over hood cats with gold teeth everytime

it has nothing to do with either player

http://i.cdn.turner.com/sivault/multimedia/photo_gallery/0806/nba.draft.fashion/images/larry-johnson.jpg

They plan MAN TO MAN defense, doggie. STRAIGHT
UP MAN TO MAN.

That's gully as shit.

And "flopping" isn't gully, but knowing how to
position yourself so that dumb niggas who drive
the lane stupidly get called for offensive fouls
is good basketball


----------------------------

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O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

Why would I be mad? I'm a Cuse fan, and don't give a shit about what Duke does, other than praying they somehow get a #1 seed in the same region as Cuse.

I watched their "MAN TO MAN" the other day against UNC.....not gully at all. UNC did whatever they wanted offensively all game long.

And there's a difference between flopping and taking charges.

This is flopping and it's decidedly not gully.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0upQDkY-pg

>Why would I be mad? I'm a Cuse fan, and don't give a shit
>about what Duke does, other than praying they somehow get a #1
>seed in the same region as Cuse.

Duke is broken right now

Man to man is still gullier than that faggot ass zone
shit

I mean, I ain't mad...you gotta do what you gotta do

>I watched their "MAN TO MAN" the other day against UNC.....not
>gully at all. UNC did whatever they wanted offensively all
>game long.

sorta like how Syracuse's zone has been dominant all these
years too, eh?

>And there's a difference between flopping and taking charges.

Nah, you just mad.

----------------------------

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O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

Good defense is good defense, and bad defense is bad defense.

There's nothing "macho" about man to man and "pussy" about zone. That's dumb as hell. Stick to talking about Cornerbacks, you're out your element in hoops.

You wanna find pussy basketball, just watch the the Plumlees play.

As for Cuse, they've had a couple soft players through the years like anyone else, but Cuse has never utilized the "flop". That shit is pussy, and it's ingrained in that Duke program for some reason.

>so fab 5 > duke in talent.

hurley and thomas hill > ray and jimmy

laettner => juwan

hill >>>>> jalen

webber >>>>>>>>>parks, lang, whoever else


fab 5 was "the fab 1, good 2 and aight 2"

once you just stop saying shit and think about shit, mistakes like that don't occur. fab 5 lost to duke because they were outgunned and they were SUPPOSED TO LOSE.

but thought they should've beaten UNC the next year cuz they were better.

LJ got hurt pretty early before he fully developed, Hill got hurt right in his prime, I wonder which of the two would have been the better player had both stayed relatively healthy.

Also got me thinking about those three teams as they happened and Webber turned out to the best of the bunch. Shockingly literally none of those guys deserve to be HOF'ers, that's wild when you consider the number of All-America and All-Conference guys the three schools produced in a super-short time period. You can throw Kentucky in there, too, they had some great teams and won't put anyone in the Hall even extrapolating out a few years.

LJ was a fine, fine player, but would have maxed out
at about 23 and 11, which are outstanding numbers.

Grant Hill had MVP-caliber potential, and had just had
an obscene season when he got hurt.

And let's not forget that Grant Hill was an absolute
menace on defense. He was almost Artest-good on the
wing.

>LJ got hurt pretty early before he fully developed, Hill got
>hurt right in his prime, I wonder which of the two would have
>been the better player had both stayed relatively healthy.
>
>Also got me thinking about those three teams as they happened
>and Webber turned out to the best of the bunch. Shockingly
>literally none of those guys deserve to be HOF'ers, that's
>wild when you consider the number of All-America and
>All-Conference guys the three schools produced in a
>super-short time period. You can throw Kentucky in there,
>too, they had some great teams and won't put anyone in the
>Hall even extrapolating out a few years.


----------------------------

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O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

>
>LJ was a fine, fine player, but would have maxed out
>at about 23 and 11, which are outstanding numbers.
>
>Grant Hill had MVP-caliber potential, and had just had
>an obscene season when he got hurt.
>
>And let's not forget that Grant Hill was an absolute
>menace on defense. He was almost Artest-good on the
>wing.
>
Grant Hill had seven healthy seasons & his team never won a single playoff series, I know players don't do it alone but I can't think of anyone on an MVP level you can say that about.

I'm not sure that level was in him.

He was an obscenely talented, extremely well-rounded player & by most accounts model citizen but I don't believe he was ever a guy comfortable with being the true 'focal point' for a great team.

I guess you could say that to some degree about David Robinson but Robinson was a center so he was able to have more impact on his team's bottom line.

(particularly in that
>>LJ got hurt pretty early before he fully developed, Hill got
>>hurt right in his prime, I wonder which of the two would
>have
>>been the better player had both stayed relatively healthy.
>>
>>Also got me thinking about those three teams as they
>happened
>>and Webber turned out to the best of the bunch. Shockingly
>>literally none of those guys deserve to be HOF'ers, that's
>>wild when you consider the number of All-America and
>>All-Conference guys the three schools produced in a
>>super-short time period. You can throw Kentucky in there,
>>too, they had some great teams and won't put anyone in the
>>Hall even extrapolating out a few years.
>
>
>----------------------------
>
>Young Broadway Star Urgently Needs a Bone Marrow Donor. Is it
>you? http://MatchShannon.com/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"
>
>
>
>
>"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."
>
>(C)Keith Murray, "

He wasn't a shutdown defender in the pro's. He was good, but didn't win big games. Hence playing on a broken ankle, cuz it was a diff time, but he was Lebronian in that regards except Lebron advanced in the playoffs.

We have no idea how good LJ would've been. He was just coming into his own. And probably would've received mad accolades. All-NBA, All-Star, deep playoff runs

>He wasn't a shutdown defender in the pro's. He was good, but
>didn't win big games. Hence playing on a broken ankle, cuz it
>was a diff time, but he was Lebronian in that regards except
>Lebron advanced in the playoffs.

>We have no idea how good LJ would've been. He was just coming
>into his own. And probably would've received mad accolades.
>All-NBA, All-Star, deep playoff runs

There is no way, in hell, he was going to end up a
better player than Grant Hill.

He was a muscular undersized power forward who was productive
on the glass and had a nice offensive game.

He was a poor man's Carmelo Anthony who could rebound a bit
better because of his frame. He had good handles for a big
man in COLLEGE but didn't have the handles or wing skills
to be a highly productive wing player on a good team

He was a smart, skilled player. Like I said -- 23 and 11,
tops. Outstanding numbers.

Grant Hill played on a bad team in a very competitive eastern
conference and was absolutely the only reason his team was
decent, at all. His Detroit team was like the Kobe Laker
teams after Shaq left and before Gasol got there. If you
judge Kobe by saying "he didn't win" in that window, you'd
be kidding yourself.

He was an outstanding defender on the wing, hit the glass,
was a deft passer (ran the point at times). He was already
as good as Scottie Pippen when he got hurt. To deny that is
to be a liar.



----------------------------

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O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

LJ 6'6, compact, built like a truck, and jumped out the gym. Cats wanted no part of LJ.

ain't like he was losing to the penny hardaway led magic...or the steve smith led hawks...or the wack ass heat...

he was facing big ass centers with terry mills and otis thorpe getting destroyed, while he got tripled.

Him and Steve was basically a wash too.

The Pistons weren't getting dropped in Game 5 or 7 by eventual champs.

.

the pistons were lottery teams that hill carried to 50 wins every year...they could not deal with mutombo

.

LJ's game was almost nothing like Anthony's, if anything I would compare Anthony with Glenn Robinson but Anthony is more athletic with quicker hands (this time I AM talking about GLENN Robinson for the record, just you don't come back screaming and moaning like a bitch about Anthony being nothing like David Robinson or Habs defenseman Larry Robinson or Paul Robeson or whatever).

LJ was more like Barkley minus some weight and some grit, a four who could run the floor real well, get mad boards and score in a lot of different ways.

I'd say healthy LJ vs healthy GH is a great debate, you're making it out like a no-brainer. That's a mistake. I could see an argument either way, personally I'd say LJ by a nose. You're showing your ass in your comments about him so I'm done here.

was in his prime.

I got the same feeling as you watching Hill, he was more Pippen than Jordan but who cares? You get the right guys around him and you'd have had something special.

>I got the same feeling as you watching Hill, he was more
>Pippen than Jordan but who cares? You get the right guys
>around him and you'd have had something special.

To deny that is to never have watched a single NBA
game featuring either.

You're honestly just making shit up.

I mean, Grant even SCORED better than Glenn in the NBA

----------------------------

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O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

Except Big Dog became complacent in the league. But he was a purer scorer.

>Except Big Dog became complacent in the league. But he was a
>purer scorer.

Glen Robinson had a very good career, but it was
100% clear from the moment that Grant Hill and
Jason Kidd hit the floor that Glen Robinson was
at best the 3rd best player in that draft, and I
remember CLEARLY one of the surprising aspects to
that whole interaction was that Grant had such an
EASY TIME SCORING relative to Glenn.

Grant was better, literally, at every facet of the
game except 3 point shooting. I remember being shocked
about this, because I hated Duke at the time and
wanted nothing more than for Grant Hill to suck.

And when Grant was doing well, I used to find solace
in saying "Well, Glenn will score more." That ended
up not being true.

Grant *tried* to score one season, and he put up 26 a
game, barely fucking trying.

There is literally no facet of the game that he was
not better than Glenn Robinson. Sorry. Its true.

Glenn was basically a volume jumpshooter. He caused
almost no consistent matchup problems. Grant Hill was
a nightmare matchup every single night.

----------------------------

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O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

In college, Glenn was purely physical, jumping, and jumper. Got to the pros, got the biggest rookie contract that led to the rookie wage scale, and went straight jump shot. Dog didn't even board any more. Gave that shit up.

He wasn't a volume shooter, because he shot well from the field. EVERY YEAR.

Grant with a lot was layups and short j's.

Like Lebron and Melo. Melo and Doggie --> pure scorers. Lebron and Grant ---> dudes that can do a lot of things and score.

Glenn did get kinda jobbed in the R.O.Y. race. As if he wasn't even an afterthought. It's not even like there teams were better. The media just never warmed up to Big Dog...and the machine pushed Grant and Jason.

>Glenn did get kinda jobbed in the R.O.Y. race. As if he wasn't
>even an afterthought. It's not even like there teams were
>better. The media just never warmed up to Big Dog...and the
>machine pushed Grant and Jason.

Not a single person, Gean Keady, Glenn Robinson's mama,
thought he deserved a piece of that R.O.Y. No one.

Why?

Because we watched the game. If anyone was lucky, it was
Jason Kidd, because Hill could have taken that trophy
uananimously and no one woulda said anything


----------------------------

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O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

And he was just a better pure scorer. Don't know how else to spell it out for you.

when he was a Rookie. 10th in the league in scoring as a Rookie. Durant ain't even do that shit. That was pretty raw.

He was rookie of the month twice. Grant once, in November. And Jason Kidd got one as well.

They split that shit up between them two cats. And he was just there scratching his head. I bet he was a distant 3rd too. I'm not saying he had to run away with the trophy or even win it. But they split it up between two cats who didn't perform clearly better than him. The media just didn't warm up to Glenn.

better than grant's pistons for sure, maybe not kidd's mavs with mash and jimmy...but glenn ain't walk into garbage. he had vin baker and todd day, established young cats. grant had old fat ass dumars.

ain't nobody rob glenn.

6.4 rebounds = 6.4 rebounds --> Same

Vin Baker was good, but Joe was still effective. And they had Allan Houston. Allan >>> Todd Day.

We tawnbout the Admiral in one post, I reply tawnbout Robinson, and you're jumping to the Big Slob?

Big Slob was more dominant as a collegian maybe but never close to Hill as a pro.

>Grant Hill had seven healthy seasons & his team never won a
>single playoff series, I know players don't do it alone but I
>can't think of anyone on an MVP level you can say that about.
Kevin Garnett anyone?
and it was six seasons

>I'm not sure that level was in him.
>
>He was an obscenely talented, extremely well-rounded player &
>by most accounts model citizen but I don't believe he was ever
>a guy comfortable with being the true 'focal point' for a
>great team.
I think it's hilarious how cats forget that the Eastern Conference fucking locked DOWN from a championship the NBA from 1989-1999, save the two years jordan took off, but the conference battles were REAL. AND the first rounds were no bullshit, 3 out of 5. Grant Hill had no problem being a winner, his teams simply weren't good enough. Only one of those teams he was on topped 50 wins. The "Kobe when Shaq left" comparison is quite apt. And in that season, they faced a better Hawks team in the first round.

more dominant and impactful player on teams he played on in college definitely and in the pros also.

How many players have you ever seen step out of JUCO and become the best player on the no.#1 ranked (Div. 1) team in the country?

LJ has been regarded as one of the greatest collegiate players to ever play the game. I've heard some analysts say he was the most ready made NBA player in the last 20 yrs in terms of physical maturity and ability.

Grant Hill, great college career but definitely not one of the all time greats and put up stellar numbers on those Pistons teams but he could never get his team out of the 1st round which to me lessens your argument for him being better than LJ. In 1997, the Pistons posted a record of 54-28 and lost in the 1st round to a Hawks team who's best player was Steve Smith.

And next season, the Pisons had better personnel around Grant and they didn't even make the playoffs.

Sure, the east was tough back then but it ain't like the Pistons were horrible all those yrs Grant was there. They won 46 gms in 1996, 54 in 1997 (3rd in the east), and only 37 in 1998. He had some quality players around him also; it ain't like he was surrounded by Lebron's supporting cast in Cleveland

Close, but the edge goes to LJ...

>How many players have you ever seen step out of JUCO and
>become the best player on the no.#1 ranked (Div. 1) team in
>the country?

Here's an experiment-

Put Larry Johnson, as a senior, on the 1994 Duke team,
and watch how far they go.

Answer: not to the national championship game, where
they give a spirited fight to the UNLV clones known
as the 1994 Arkansas Razorbacks.

Grant Hill led TERRIBLE Duke team to the national
championship game, where it took a Scotty Thurman
3 pointer to take down the Blue Devils.

Not to mention Grant Hill authored one of the
great defensive efforts in college basketball
history:

ONE GAME after Glen Robinson erupted for 44 points
versus Kansas, he goes for.....13 against Grant
Hill, who locked him up one on one.


>LJ has been regarded as one of the greatest collegiate players
>to ever play the game. I've heard some analysts say he was the
>most ready made NBA player in the last 20 yrs in terms of
>physical maturity and ability.

Grant Hill, all around, was just as good. Grant won national
DEFENSIVE player of the year, remember.



----------------------------

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O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

>Here's an experiment-
>
>Put Larry Johnson, as a senior, on the 1994 Duke team,
>and watch how far they go.
>
>Answer: not to the national championship game, where
>they give a spirited fight to the UNLV clones known
>as the 1994 Arkansas Razorbacks.

that may be true but it's purely speculative. Who's to say if you were to put Grant Hill on that 1991-92 UNLV team that they go nearly undefeated. We can only go by what they did do in college and having watched both - I can say w/o hesitation LJ was a more dominant college player than Hill. And lets not forget that LJ made the biggest impact of anyone I've seen in only a two year period and most people would still rank him as better college player than Grant who played ALL 4 YRS.
>
>Grant Hill led TERRIBLE Duke team to the national
>championship game, where it took a Scotty Thurman
>3 pointer to take down the Blue Devils.

terrible is a stretch but they definitely weren't one of the better Duke squads.
>
>Not to mention Grant Hill authored one of the
>great defensive efforts in college basketball
>history:
>
>ONE GAME after Glen Robinson erupted for 44 points
>versus Kansas, he goes for.....13 against Grant
>Hill, who locked him up one on one.

ok, that's fine and all. It's not like I'm saying Hill wasn't a terrific collegiate player but I tell you what: make a random google search of the greatest college players in NCAA history and see which player of the two appears on the lists the most?
>
>
>>LJ has been regarded as one of the greatest collegiate
>players
>>to ever play the game. I've heard some analysts say he was
>the
>>most ready made NBA player in the last 20 yrs in terms of
>>physical maturity and ability.
>
>Grant Hill, all around, was just as good. Grant won national
>DEFENSIVE player of the year, remember.

All around, yes, he was better no doubt but I've made this argument over and over and that is just because a player is more all around doesn't necessarily mean they're a better or more dominant or more impactful player than someone who doesn't have great all around ability - although LJ was a very well rounded player.

I mean, I would say Johnson was more NBA-ready in terms of his physique and all-around ability to chip in right away, but I'm not sure "polished" is the word I would use. That indicates he had a better-rounded game than he had and it also, as your overall evaluation suggests, limits his potential for overall growth in the mid to late 90s.


>LJ was a fine, fine player, but would have maxed out
>at about 23 and 11, which are outstanding numbers.

He was getting almost those exact numbers (22 and 10.5) when he started having back problems, that doesn't seem like his potential pinnacle in a healthy career to me. Maybe he never adds an outside game if he doesn't have physical limitations but I think his trajectory was a B+-grade Barkley if not for the injuries.

>Grant Hill had MVP-caliber potential, and had just had
>an obscene season when he got hurt.

Yeah he was definitely cut down in his prime, I don't know that he could have been a top 5 SF all-time but definitely a HOF'er at the position given say three more years like he was having, which is a lower longevity standard than most players (based on quality and well-roundedness, dude did it all).

>And let's not forget that Grant Hill was an absolute
>menace on defense. He was almost Artest-good on the
>wing.

You couldn't really find a hole in his game. Excellent vision/passing, above average rebounder for the position, above average defender with solid position and quick hands, just a complete player. I wouldn't say his defense was there with Pippen or even Artest but it was good.

I dunno, I think of those two guys and also Penny and think about missing out on three players that are hard to find easy comparisons for, especially Hill and Hardaway.

I mean, if you can't see that, there's no debate to
be had.

Grant got by on athleticism and coachability alone
his first few seasons and was still outstanding.

When he actually started to care about scoring (he never,
ever, did) he put in 26 a game like it was nothing.

LJ didn't have that type of ability in him.

----------------------------

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O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

of his career after his second season.

y?

----------------------------

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O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

Lol

of the Durham Herald-Sun newspaper wearing a t-shirt that said, "No white lady, I don't want your purse." It was at a charity event. Every once in a while I cruise the internet seeing if someone had found that picture and posted it somewhere but I guess it's lost.

There was also a time when the HBCU North Carolina Central that is also in Durham was trying to get people to buy hats so that they could afford to send their band and cheerleaders to the Div. II tournament. Grant too time out of a Duke press conference to promote their campaign and was wearing a hat.

Hill had a better vert than LJ
and im not ready to turn Coach K into the White Shadow

this was obviously written by a white person.

Don't most folks think that anyway?

I only wish they were able to win one of those title games so they couldn't just be dismissed. I still say they got cheated in that Duke title game.

__________________________________________________________________________
The New Shit

twitter.com/LetsStay2Gether

also on Facebook

I WILL NOT LET YOU FORGET IT

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vw-0ln9L48c

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8T000p6vtTM&NR=1


wtf

that, I have no problem whatsoever with the type of (blk) players they recruit. Coach K has been 10x more successful with the type of player he believes will fit into his system than coaches that primarily go after inner city kids. So what's to criticize?

Further more, lets not forget that back in the (pops) John Thompson G'Town days, Coach Thompson didn't recruit "certain types" of players also. More than likely, he probably wouldn't have recruited most of the Fab 5 players either.

And before anyone brings up Iverson, the only way Iverson got into G'Town was because his mother LITERALLY BEGGED coach Thompson to give her son a chance.

I remember during the late 80s there were a number of black players I heard say out of their own mouths how they wanted to attend Georgetown during Georgetown glory years but that John Thompson NEVER even sent them so much as a letter of interest.

-Sherman Douglass
-Dennis Scott
-Kenny Anderson
-Penny Hardaway
-Marcus Liberty

just to name a few but back in the day, John Thompson was big on only recruiting student athletes which is why during his tenure G'Town was year in and year out amongst the top schools that graduated the vast majority of their basketball players.

So to a degree, I feel Jalen because at 18, that's how I viewed Duke but in reality, the "Uncle Tom" moniker is inaccurate.

>I remember during the late 80s there were a number of black
>players I heard say out of their own mouths how they wanted to
>attend Georgetown during Georgetown glory years but that John
>Thompson NEVER even sent them so much as a letter of
>interest.
>
>-Sherman Douglass
>-Dennis Scott
>-Kenny Anderson
>-Penny Hardaway
>-Marcus Liberty
>
>just to name a few but back in the day, John Thompson was big
>on only recruiting student athletes which is why during his
>tenure G'Town was year in and year out amongst the top schools
>that graduated the vast majority of their basketball players.

>>I remember during the late 80s there were a number of black
>>players I heard say out of their own mouths how they wanted
>to
>>attend Georgetown during Georgetown glory years but that
>John
>>Thompson NEVER even sent them so much as a letter of
>>interest.
>>
>>-Sherman Douglass
>>-Dennis Scott
>>-Kenny Anderson
>>-Penny Hardaway
>>-Marcus Liberty
>>
>>just to name a few but back in the day, John Thompson was
>big
>>on only recruiting student athletes which is why during his
>>tenure G'Town was year in and year out amongst the top
>schools
>>that graduated the vast majority of their basketball
>players.
>

The story is that during a visit to the campus he was given a reading test and basically said, "Fuck this."

Around the same time, Kenny Anderson was apparently all about Georgetown but Thompson didn't really like him.

Edit (SI Link for Anderson):

"Georgetown had been Anderson's first choice, but when coach John Thompson failed to pay a personal visit to Anderson's home, Anderson ruled out the Hoyas."

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1123082/2/index.htm

Some people blamed Thompson's lack of personal attention to his commitment to the Olympics.

I heard him say it himself. I don't know if you remember Malcolm Mackey, he was the starting center on that "Lethal Weapon" team. He was a classmate of mine and I went to visit him at his dorm when he played with Anderson at Gtech and Kenny was there and he mentioned how John Thompson didn't seem to show much interest in him when he was coming out of high school and was regarded as the consensus no.#1 player in the country, and not because he had a rep of being a problem kid but moreso because of the reputation of NY city players, point guards in particular, who have always had a reputation of being flashy players. And that was the opposite of what Coach Thompson looked for in his point guards.


>The story is that during a visit to the campus he was given a
>reading test and basically said, "Fuck this."
>
>Around the same time, Kenny Anderson was apparently all about
>Georgetown but Thompson didn't really like him.
>
>Edit (SI Link for Anderson):
>
>"Georgetown had been Anderson's first choice, but when coach
>John Thompson failed to pay a personal visit to Anderson's
>home, Anderson ruled out the Hoyas."
>
>http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1123082/2/index.htm
>
>Some people blamed Thompson's lack of personal attention to
>his commitment to the Olympics.

>I heard him say it himself. I don't know if you remember
>Malcolm Mackey, he was the starting center on that "Lethal
>Weapon" team. He was a classmate of mine and I went to visit
>him at his dorm when he played with Anderson at Gtech and
>Kenny was there and he mentioned how John Thompson didn't seem
>to show much interest in him when he was coming out of high
>school and was regarded as the consensus no.#1 player in the
>country, and not because he had a rep of being a problem kid
>but moreso because of the reputation of NY city players, point
>guards in particular, who have always had a reputation of
>being flashy players. And that was the opposite of what Coach
>Thompson looked for in his point guards.

That sounds about right.

90s, that once John Thompson was no longer getting the top high school players like he did in the 80s that you saw less of a focus on getting certain type of players. Once the program was no longer amongst the upper echelon, I think it limited the type of players he could recruit unlike in the 80s when they were ALWAYS one of the top teams in the country and just abt every (blk) high school kid wanted to go there.


>>I remember during the late 80s there were a number of black
>>players I heard say out of their own mouths how they wanted
>to
>>attend Georgetown during Georgetown glory years but that
>John
>>Thompson NEVER even sent them so much as a letter of
>>interest.
>>
>>-Sherman Douglass
>>-Dennis Scott
>>-Kenny Anderson
>>-Penny Hardaway
>>-Marcus Liberty
>>
>>just to name a few but back in the day, John Thompson was
>big
>>on only recruiting student athletes which is why during his
>>tenure G'Town was year in and year out amongst the top
>schools
>>that graduated the vast majority of their basketball
>players.
>

Michael Graham was working for THE POST OFFICE when jt jr. found him.

-----------
I have nothing to contribute here, just complaining.

they won the championship....

and further more, what the hell does working in a post office have to do with anything?

Because he took on one or two players from time to time that were from the wrong side of the tracks sorta speak, doesn't mean that John Thompson didn't primarily go after quality young kids who who he knew wouldn't be a problem.

Coach Thompson was by no means a Jerry Tarkanian who said he believed in taking in kids with questionable pasts.

and his efforts.

but you said: "big on only recruiting student athletes"

nah. he did try to get student athletes more than most. he cared about them doing alright for themselves beyond just athletics. he was a good role model for what a coach could do.

but he took some questionable characters. so has coach k. it happens. as long as you're trying to coach them up as people and not just disposable athletes, you're cool with me.

-----------
I have nothing to contribute here, just complaining.

for his papers.

A.I. showing up for his bio-lab on time.

...two of the most grimmiest N*GGAS to ever put on a Hoya uniform. both of 'em played for John Thompson. did they graduate? no. but he recruited 'em.

w/o Michael Graham, Georgetown does not win the '84 National Championship. n*ggas was feelin' himself and said, "f*ck class. i'm on Sports Illustrated." he ain't know no better, n*gga went to Spingarn.

f*ckin' Victor Page started in the backcourt with Bubba Chuck for the Hoyas in '95-'96. n*gga straight out of SE. before he stepped on campus n*gga got arrested for cocaine and weapons possession.

Big John recruited n*ggas too, they may not have graduated...but he brought 'em up to campus.

and in those 27 yrs, you could probably name only a handful of "problem players" coach Thompson had.


>...two of the most grimmiest N*GGAS to ever put on a Hoya
>uniform. both of 'em played for John Thompson. did they
>graduate? no. but he recruited 'em.

Victor Page no doubt stayed in some trouble but again, this is John Thompson of the 90s who somewhat had to adjust his standards a bit due to black basketball players being culturally different in the mid 90s vs the early to mids 80s.

Remember also that Iverson and Page are post-Fab 5 and by then there was no way any school could of avoid getting certain types of players. In the 80s, the ONLY team really known for routinely getting those "questionable" type players were UNLV back in the 80s.

...shit Anthony Jones, a DC n*gga...Dunbar n*gga at that, LEFT to go play for...





wait for it...






any second now...





almost there...






a little bit more...








U...N...L...f*ckin'...V!!!


shit...Charles Smith!!! All-American, '88 Olympian, Boston Celtic. but that n*gga stay in f*ckin' trouble allegedly runnin' gambling rings, drug possession and shit.

Big John had a myriad of n*ggas to play for him. happy go lucky mofos like Michael Jackson to potential hide ya kids, hide ya wife type mofos too. they all went to Georgetown.

and did far more gully shit (on the court that is) than anyone I can remember in G'Town history but that doesn't mean that he was someone who was a problem kid because he wasn't and neither was Williams. Reggie Williams was a quiet and humble kid who never got in any real trouble at G'Town notwithstanding him taking a swipe at Jensen of Villanova at the end of the 1st half.




>shit...Charles Smith!!! All-American, '88 Olympian, Boston
>Celtic. but that n*gga stay in f*ckin' trouble allegedly
>runnin' gambling rings, drug possession and shit.

I remember most of his problems occurring after he left G'Town. Wasn't he involved in a hit and run? At G'Town I don't recall him getting into a lot of trouble.
>
>Big John had a myriad of n*ggas to play for him. happy go
>lucky mofos like Michael Jackson to potential hide ya kids,
>hide ya wife type mofos too. they all went to Georgetown.

For every one player you can name that had a rep of being constantly in trouble that played for G'Town, I can 4 that were upstanding people which is why John Thompson always....always...had a reputation of running one of the cleanest programs in the country.

....one of the biggest drug dealers the East Coast has ever seen and told him in no uncertain terms:

"Stay the fuck away from my players, or you'll be sorry"

And the nigga did it.
______________________________________________________________________________

"There's a fine line between persistence and foolishness..."
-unknown

"To Each His Reach"
-George Clinton

and much like Notre Dame...they kept that prototype as the model of the players they recruited and went through a period where they were far more hype than success..... prior to last year's good fortune of meeting mediocre cinderellas throughout their trip to the finals last year...prior to that year they were lucky to get past the 2nd round of the tournament....losing to teams that were recruiting more "modern" players...

that's why they simply have not been putting players into the NBA that are impactful because that style of player has slim to none chance of making it...

>that's why they simply have not been putting players into the
>NBA that are impactful because that style of player has slim
>to none chance of making it...

you can't speak in present tense to me about something that happened 20 years ago without me calling you on it.

You couldn't call Coach K a genius, and Duke a powerhouse when they were getting knocked out in the first and second round and putting guys in the D-League and not the NBA......just because some years before they produced Grant HIll or Luol Deng..

Same thing happened to Bobby Knight he was getting praised as a present time successful coach while his teams were rarely playing more than 1 game in the tournament...

I'm all about accuracy....

and will likely be a one seed again this year.

I mean I ain't a Duke fan at all but that is the 'reality' of the situation.

Their best player ain't gonna be on the court & they'll still be a one-seed.

>Their best player ain't gonna be on the court & they'll still
>be a one-seed.

better than Duke in college basketball right now.

College hoop is pretty much at its nadir, if Kyrie was playing I'd be damn near saying Duke should run away with a title.

Who's better? OSU?

lmao.

then you havent watched college bball at all this year. It's not even a question.

With Kyrie, different story, but we'd still give them a run.

I'm hoping this matchup comes to fruition.


_______________________________

b) this is yet another weak year for college hoop in general (worse than last season even) so much so that Duke could still end up being a one seed without him & with their late struggles.

&

c) I'll believe Matta/OSU winning a title when it actually happens & not a second earlier regardless of how good a regular season the Buckeyes had.

or whoever that was that Duke played in the finals last year....if the Bruins got that lucky to play a team like that ..even once during our recent 3 straight trips to the final four....we'd have won a national title too.... but Coach Howland had to play real teams....with really good players in their trips to the final four.

http://www.misfittoys.net/tvtime/grinch/town1.jpg

Didn't know they were already a lock to win the ACC tourney either.

They do always seem to get the lucky draw tho.

>Didn't know they were already a lock to win the ACC tourney
>either.
>
>They do always seem to get the lucky draw tho.

my point was only that Warren's point sounds silly when they're coming off a national title, have been a Top 5 team all season & spent most of it without their best player while Temple has been better than UCLA for three years running.

might be time to rest on that talk for a minute in the face of that evidence.

>You couldn't call Coach K a genius, and Duke a powerhouse when
>they were getting knocked out in the first and second round
>and putting guys in the D-League and not the NBA......just
>because some years before they produced Grant HIll or Luol
>Deng..
>
>Same thing happened to Bobby Knight he was getting praised as
>a present time successful coach while his teams were rarely
>playing more than 1 game in the tournament...

http://splicd.com/izWRKl06XEY/26/32

http://www.misfittoys.net/tvtime/grinch/town1.jpg

He wasn't running shit in the Detroit PSL.

Go Tigers

Jalen is HOOD

but Webber was still hood...people automatically assume that West Side Detroit is the "nice part" ...lol @ non Michigan natives chiming in on this..


his moms taught at Mumford, and she wanted him to get out of the neighborhood...so they shipped him off to DCD (with a little assist from Ed Martin..but we know that story)

and the funny part about that east side west side argument is that there are 2 eastsides and 2 westsides......east you have 7mile....from Woodward to Harperwood then you have Mack and Bewick east ..2 separate worlds....then you have 8,7,6 mile and Fenkell etc west.... which is different from Linwood, Dexter and 12th street etc west.....and then both east and west totally different from SW and Downtown.
_______________________________

Well, I'm from Detroit. Not sure if that comment was directed at me or not but whatever.

Also, Webber was recruited HEAVILY by Duke. So Rose characterizing the Fab 5 as all guys Duke wouldn't look at is just flat out wrong. Webber wasn't exactly struggling to get by like Rose was. He went to one of the most elite private schools in Michigan.

>but Webber was still hood...people automatically assume that
>West Side Detroit is the "nice part" ...lol @ non Michigan
>natives chiming in on this..
>
>
>his moms taught at Mumford, and she wanted him to get out of
>the neighborhood...so they shipped him off to DCD (with a
>little assist from Ed Martin..but we know that story)
>
>and the funny part about that east side west side argument is
>that there are 2 eastsides and 2 westsides......east you have
>7mile....from Woodward to Harperwood then you have Mack and
>Bewick east ..2 separate worlds....then you have 8,7,6 mile
>and Fenkell etc west.... which is different from Linwood,
>Dexter and 12th street etc west.....and then both east and
>west totally different from SW and Downtown.
>_______________________________


Go Tigers

>Well, I'm from Detroit. Not sure if that comment was directed
>at me or not but whatever.
>
>Also, Webber was recruited HEAVILY by Duke. So Rose
>characterizing the Fab 5 as all guys Duke wouldn't look at is
>just flat out wrong. Webber wasn't exactly struggling to get
>by like Rose was. He went to one of the most elite private
>schools in Michigan.
>
>>but Webber was still hood...people automatically assume that
>>West Side Detroit is the "nice part" ...lol @ non Michigan
>>natives chiming in on this..
>>
>>
>>his moms taught at Mumford, and she wanted him to get out of
>>the neighborhood...so they shipped him off to DCD (with a
>>little assist from Ed Martin..but we know that story)
>>
>>and the funny part about that east side west side argument
>is
>>that there are 2 eastsides and 2 westsides......east you
>have
>>7mile....from Woodward to Harperwood then you have Mack and
>>Bewick east ..2 separate worlds....then you have 8,7,6 mile
>>and Fenkell etc west.... which is different from Linwood,
>>Dexter and 12th street etc west.....and then both east and
>>west totally different from SW and Downtown.
>>_______________________________
>
>
>Go Tigers


_______________________________

This article gives a little bit more of the story. It sounds to me that jealousy was played a major part in the personal hate, on top of the ususal Duke is Duke hate.


“For me, Duke was personal. I hated Duke and I hated everything I felt Duke stood for,” Rose says in the film. “Schools like Duke didn’t recruit players like me. I felt like they only recruited black players that were Uncle Toms.”

“The faces of Duke, I didn’t like them,” Jimmy King said.

“I hated Duke. I hated Duke,” Ray Jackson said.

“Coach K, you have Christian Laettner, Bobby Hurley, Grant Hill, yeah, they winning and keep in mind they won a championship the year before," Juwan Howard said. "I respect that but we are talented, too.”

“I was jealous of Grant Hill. He came from a great black family, congratulations,” Rose said. “Your mom went to college and was roommates with Hillary Clinton. Your dad played in the NFL, is a very well-spoken and successful man. I was upset and bitter that my mom had to bust her hump for 20-plus years. I was bitter that I had a professional athlete that was my father that I didn’t know.”

http://www.annarbor.com/sports/um-basketball/jalen-rose-thought-duke-basketball-was-full-of-uncle-toms-plus-more-on-his-fab-five-documentary/

I love it.

I was out most of the day checking this shit on my phone and just laughing my ass off. OE destroyed all y'all dudes and niggas (niggas who are otherwise reasonable and intelligent) actually started blaming refs and talking about flops, because...

Coach K produces better black men than ALL the other major college programs.

Duke's Af-Am student undergrad of 11% is greater than MOST other major college programs.

Grant Hill could jump higher and run faster (and think better) than LJ, Stacy, Jalen (a shitty athlete for real, in comparison), King, Ray, Anthony, etc.....and he own enough historical black art to match all the money Juwan Howard has saved throughout his career...and Juwan has saved nearly every DIME of that 100 mil +

Mark Alarie and Thomas Hill own technology firms

Cherokee owns a punk rock club in Huntington Beach and still a millionaire and smoke weed and get tatted and fuck bitches all day...and don't ever be in the news getting hemmed up by the cops.

Christian and Brian gettin paid and cheating dumb niggas like Shawne Merriman...who can't fuckin read and need Duke-hating judges to bail him out a bad deal.

K gets all the former athlete's kids, because they know they boys gonna get raised right away from home. DAT MILITARY TRAINING!

lol

.

>
>I love it.
>
>I was out most of the day checking this shit on my phone and
>just laughing my ass off. OE destroyed all y'all dudes and
>niggas (niggas who are otherwise reasonable and intelligent)
>actually started blaming refs and talking about flops,
>because...
>
>Coach K produces better black men than ALL the other major
>college programs.
>
>Duke's Af-Am student undergrad of 11% is greater than MOST
>other major college programs.
>
>Grant Hill could jump higher and run faster (and think better)
>than LJ, Stacy, Jalen (a shitty athlete for real, in
>comparison), King, Ray, Anthony, etc.....and he own enough
>historical black art to match all the money Juwan Howard has
>saved throughout his career...and Juwan has saved nearly every
>DIME of that 100 mil +
>
>Mark Alarie and Thomas Hill own technology firms
>
>Cherokee owns a punk rock club in Huntington Beach and still a
>millionaire and smoke weed and get tatted and fuck bitches all
>day...and don't ever be in the news getting hemmed up by the
>cops.
>
>Christian and Brian gettin paid and cheating dumb niggas like
>Shawne Merriman...who can't fuckin read and need Duke-hating
>judges to bail him out a bad deal.
>
>K gets all the former athlete's kids, because they know they
>boys gonna get raised right away from home. DAT MILITARY
>TRAINING!
>
>


_______________________________

Before then I respected Duke but didn't cheer for them. They beat my Kentucky Teams.

kicking over towers and shit

for Complex Mag just for the simple fact they would probably have hooked you up with a nice photoshop job of the scene you described.

Wowzers....lol

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
<---- 5....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dlgiritpmfo

erybody hated mark alarie and jay bilas too...j. dawkins was the only duke player i ever really liked

I mean, was Jalen lying?

commentator Bilas? Jeebus.

http://podloc.andomedia.com/dloadTrack.mp3?prm=1629xhttp://c.espnradio.com/audio/526571/simmons_2011-03-09-154711.mp3

one of the best BS reports in recent memory.

I gave it a shot once but it sounded like mostly pop culture fluff.

Looking for something to fill the driving time between Spider and the Hench podcasts.

Mostly its him and his douchebag friends talking about gambling or bullshit like the Bachelor.

NBA Today with Ryen Russillo is my shit though.

not joking. it's hilarious how much he hates his listeners.

his cast is can't miss for me, dude is awesome

then said "He was 6'8 260 at 13, so we knew he had some aggressive aging issues".

I fell out at work.

>then said "He was 6'8 260 at 13, so we knew he had some
>aggressive aging issues".
>
>I fell out at work.

like billy said, it really is dependent on the guest, i skip @ least 50% of them b/c i can tell by the guest/topic that it's some abt bullshit i don't care abt like reality tv or "sports movie character fantasy draft" or some dumb shit.

the nba stuff is usually gold tho. this most recent one is great, partially b/c jalen does most of the talking (simmons' voice gets hella annoying @ times)

gonna check out rusillio

http://i52.tinypic.com/292vbie.jpg

LOL - were cosby sweaters really the standard gear for all well educated, well-to-do black fathers back then?

for coming home from the barber with that part in his head?

"Boy you think you one of them on the corner street tough niggers? You down with O.P.P? No son, You better realize there is no half stepping in my house!"

That shit might've been a big talking point for all of the families after their next Jack & Jill, brown paper bag test, blue blood, pomp and circumstance gala.

>"Boy you think you one of them on the corner street tough
>niggers? You down with O.P.P? No son, You better realize there
>is no half stepping in my house!"

They just emphasize things like black history,
good grades, and having a good reputation,
characteristics that don't get you documentary films
made like losing and blacks socks do.



----------------------------

Young Broadway Star Urgently Needs a Bone Marrow Donor. Is it you? http://MatchShannon.com/







O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

>characteristics that don't get you documentary films
>made like losing and blacks socks do.
>

>>characteristics that don't get you documentary films
>>made like losing and blacks socks do.


I mean, nobody is making a film about the Grant Hill's
collection of art, his dad's Yale education (Yale has
an award named after him for athletes who perform
community service), or any of their positive contributions
to society.


But you lose and wear black socks, and you
"changed the game forever."

LOL.

Changed what, exactly?

Honestly, this whole shit is mad corny to me, B.




----------------------------

Young Broadway Star Urgently Needs a Bone Marrow Donor. Is it you? http://MatchShannon.com/







O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

Jalen's been selling is kinda cringeworthy, as is the way this special sounds considering Jalen's producing it & apparently Webber ain't really involved (I'm sure that means more 'puff piece' than anything with minimal Ed Martin mention).

I still plan to watch it, I'm just looking forward to the HBO UNLV doc much more.

i mean, you think of all the stuff he saw: beating unlv and the fab five, that epic run that culminated in the loss to nolan, young superstar, terrible injury, rebirth as a role player, and he's a smart, introspective guy? that has 30 for 30 written all over it.

were cultural phenomenons. And the fact is people are still interested in them today. We understand. You being upset though, isn't going to change anything about that.

Your issue has more to do with what is lauded in our culture and what people, especially young people, gravitate towards. Youth culture has always loved rebels.

You're argument attacking UNLV and the Fab 5 just makes you look bitter though. You really can't deny the impact they had and still have on the sport and had on the youth in the early 90s.

You posting all Uncle Ruckus'y isn't really gonna change history.

>were cultural phenomenons. And the fact is people are still
>interested in them today. We understand. You being upset
>though, isn't going to change anything about that.

So I'm not *mad* at anybody.

Nobody was a bigger Fab 5 fan than me.

My life was Wu-Tang and Jalen Rose in 1993.

I delivered mad newspapers to buy the Nike Michigan
shorts, one of my most prized possessions ever.

So trust me -- I totally understand the appeal.

>Your issue has more to do with what is lauded in our culture
>and what people, especially young people, gravitate towards.
>Youth culture has always loved rebels.

Nah, its not about that.

We're in an era where we should know better.

We laud Obama too. We know how to appreciate people for
the right reasons. We're better than that. Its not as
if there's some sort of blanket, immutable property of
society that makes them appreciate negativity over
positivity.

We absolutely *can* appreciate positivity.

The thing is this: OKP's demographic is mostly
educated, working class (and up), and should know
the difference. Most of us are actual grownups.

We should know better than to chart the Fab 5's
Importance to nothing other than cutesy kid nostalgia.
That's all it is.

Not all things about my (and our) youth were cutesy kid
nostalgia.

Illmatic was powerful and meaningful. Not just cutesy
nostalgia

The Autobiography of Malcom was powerful and meaningful.


Finger-fucking Vicky near Prospect Park was not powerful
and meaningful.

And the Fab 5 was not powerful nor meaningful.

Doesn't mean I don't smile when I think of finger-fucking
Vicki.

Don't mean I don't smile when I think of the Fab 5.

But miss me with the "importance" shit, because Vicki
was a random girl (god bless her) and the Fab 5 were a
bunch of niggas who played ball and didn't influence
dick but the shorts I wore.

Nas and Malcom influenced my core values and the way
I saw the world.


So we can enjoy what we enjoy. That's fine. But all this
"meaning" shit we attach to dumb shit is plain silly.


>You're argument attacking UNLV and the Fab 5 just makes you
>look bitter though. You really can't deny the impact they had
>and still have on the sport and had on the youth in the early
>90s.

LOL -- bitter?

And what impact?

How many final fours has either UNLV or Michigan been to since
1993?

How about the team who beat both?









































Oh.


*THAT* is influence. The team that actually goes on to
WIN shit is influence.

The coach who RESTORES the US dignity in international
basketball -- that is influence.

The PG on those Duke teams was raised by one of the most
caring men in all of basketball (Bob Hurley Sr) who has
done more for black men than the Fab 5's dumbass socks
and losing did.

THAT is influence.

Bob Hurley Sr >>>> Black socks wearing losers (in terms of
influence on Black Men)


^^^That's revolution.

Not black socks, gambling, gold teeth, and losing.


Of course, Hurley had a movie about him too that I just
found out about because it got no pub. Fab 5 have
a movie about them that is going to be watched by
tens of thousands more people than watched the Hurley
movie.



>You posting all Uncle Ruckus'y isn't really gonna change
>history.

LOL @ Uncle Ruckus.

I'm the most militant pro-black nigga on here, doggie.

You forget that white people are the ones who think the
Fab 5 are cutesy.

White folks would much rather deal with a ball player who
is a "revolutionary" with black socks than deal with a
young Orbit_Established (pissed off and frighteningly
smart, as in *actually* smart and not Allen Iverson
smart).


So miss me with the Uncle Ruckus shit.


Nobody ride for the black race like the Orbster.


I'm done with the dumb shit, though.

That's what the appeal is for the Fab 5 and UNLV. It's nostalgia. I don't think anybody is saying anything different. Their rise because of their youth, paralleled with the rise of Hip Hop, and how the two paths crossed. Nobody is trying to get a week in Black History Month dedicated to them cats.

You're right, pretty much everybody on this board is smart enough to know why they have a documentary. And I don't think anybody is taking past the cutesy nostalgia.

But like I said you can't deny their influence. The way they influenced how college athletes are looked at. From a merchandising standpoint, these fucking kids were a goldmine. NCAA made a shit load of money off them, they got jack shit. This showed how college athletes were taken advantage of and still are.

Their youth, starting Five Freshman was a big shift in college basketball as well. You can see that gradually change into straight to NBA players and the one and dones we have now.

The antics, screaming after dunks, mean faces and all that shit in the game now. That was them. Of course niggaz did that before, but they made it famous.

Of course you can point out them losing, but cats still remember them today. And cats don't remember Donald Williams or Derrick Phelps. Unless it's their seeds who are forced to watch that game video every Saturday afternoon.

You can't get anybody to talk bad about Grant or the Hills. It doesn't mean we should only hear their story though. It doesn't mean we want to hear their story. There's way more conflict with the Fab 5 or UNLV, and that's what stories are.

You just coming off a cat that on March 9th your asking everyone to talk about Nas. Because they should. Nope, not on that day. Everyone is doing something else.

Both topics can exist independent of one another. Just like Fab Five and Duke.

n was like "you better NEVER go out there talkin bout bein down with OPP!!! That's OTHER people's property!"

A lot of great insight there

nm

even that controversial.

It was Jalen saying something at Age 18, that was a pretty obviously shared sentiment at the time.

This is outright hilarious -- did niggas ever
watch Grant Hill play? You do realize the nigga
was one of the purest wing athletes in college
BB history

Jimmy King was an average 6'5 2 guard who could
jump

A lotta niggas can jump

Grant was another animal altogether


----------------------------

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O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

and he *is* normally underrated as an athlete, but jimmy king had booster rockets in his nikes

grant's one hand alley-oop should be required viewing for anyone who talks him down as a pure athlete tho

paraphrase what he said:

- The trash talking didn't bother him because he was an innercity kid, but they kept talking. And talked to the media too. And didn't do enough to talk that much, because they never won the title.

- He was 3-0 against them.

- Duke recruits from the innercity. He was from the innercity and came from a workingclass family. If Jalen had the academics, then maybe Duke would've recruited him. Jalen wouldn't have beaten him out. But he could've fought for time with Thomas Hill.

Dude's from Newark (I think)...either that or South Orange
That's pretty gully though...he just went Ghostface on J. Rose (I shitted on your hood kid, I shitted on your hood!)

i saw them play in the seagull classic in atlantic city (when malik sealy was at christ the king, camden was doing things, rodney monroe was at lake clifton)...

dude was raised around ballers. i never fronted on his game.


peace & blessings,

x.

www.twitter.com/poetx

=========================================
** i move away from the mic to breathe in

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XdXmRDevSgs
Check the interview at the end.

is that Duke actually has a bigger Black and overall minority population than Michigan does. Almost half of Duke's undergraduate students are minorities.

dude is talking about UM like it's Cal State Dominguez, FOH, they were just ballsy enough to say fuck it and recruit those kids.

duke as a university is only what, a quarter the size of u of m, it doesn't take that many niggers to be at 10%, and they're mostly rich.


http://dukechronicle.com/article/duke-draws-rich-kids-all-colors


duke is not some fuckin bastion of blackness

http://card.mygamercard.net/lastgame/rjcc.png

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

unless you're white or arent paying attention, hes saying that thats how he felt when he was 17.
Everything he said was true.

~~~~~~~~~
I don't check my inbox.

http://rateyourmusic.com/list/Nodima/run_that_shit__nodimas_hip_hop_handbook

http://www.last.fm/user/NodimaChee

http://www.potholesinmyblog.com

http://www.popmatters.com/pm/archive/contributor/517

they would recruit my kids"

lol

"The best index to a person's character is how he treats people who can't do him any good & how he treats people who can't fight back"-Abigail Van Buren

I'm Certified

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/news?slug=ap-jalenrose-hill

Rose says Hill to help support new charter school

By NOAH TRISTER, AP Sports Writer May 14, 5:59 pm EDT

DETROIT (AP)—Former Michigan basketball star Jalen Rose says Grant Hill has agreed to help support the new charter school in Detroit bearing Rose’s name.

The Jalen Rose Leadership Academy is expected to open in September. Rose says Hill has promised to lend his support and that things are fine between them after Hill criticized Rose in March for comments he made in an ESPN documentary about Michigan’s famous Fab Five.

Hill, a former Duke standout, criticized Rose in the New York Times for saying the Blue Devils “only recruited black players that were ‘Uncle Toms.”’ Rose says he was only describing how he felt back when he was a teenager—as opposed to now.

“Any time, for example, you have a critically acclaimed piece like the Fab Five documentary has been, you’re going to have 99 percent of the people that love it, but when you have the brutal honesty, you’re going to have that 1 percent on the other side of the coin, so to speak,” Rose said Saturday. “I definitely talked to Grant and reached out to Coach K, and again clarified that that was how I felt as a high school recruit.”

A Detroit native, Rose threw out the ceremonial first pitch at the Detroit Tigers’ game Saturday against Kansas City. Afterward, he was eager to promote the new school, and he said Hill—a former Detroit Piston—has agreed to support the venture. Rose said Detroit Lions defensive lineman Ndamukong Suh has also reached out to him.

Rose, who spent 13 years in the NBA and is now an ESPN analyst, recently decided to sell his version of the “General Lee,” a 1969 Dodge Charger used in “The Dukes of Hazzard” television series. Proceeds will benefit the new school.

Rose said he got little use out of the car, except during the Woodward Dream Cruise, the Detroit area’s annual vintage car parade.

“You have a great vehicle like that, it’s a nostalgic vehicle … what can you really do with it to have a true impact? My riding up and down the Dream Cruise a couple of days a year means a lot to me—that day. But then I’m going to park it for a year,” Rose said. “It’s going to a worthy cause.”

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