lol @ the idiots here who said he didn't use.
i see yall.


http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/baseball/mlb/03/06/news.excerpt/index.html

Bonds exposed
Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
Posted: Tuesday March 7, 2006 12:55PM

NEW YORK (SI.com) -- Beginning in 1998 with injections in his buttocks of Winstrol, a powerful steroid, Barry Bonds took a wide array of performance-enhancing drugs over at least five seasons in a massive doping regimen that grew more sophisticated as the years went on, according to Game of Shadows, a book written by two San Francisco Chronicle reporters at the forefront of reporting on the BALCO steroid distribution scandal.

(An excerpt of Game of Shadows that details Bonds' steroid use appears exclusively in the March 13 issue of Sports Illustrated, which is available on newsstands beginning on Wednesday. The book's publication date is March 27.)

The authors, Mark Fainaru-Wada and Lance Williams, describe in sometimes day-to-day, drug-by-drug detail how often and how deeply Bonds engaged in the persistent doping. For instance, the authors write that by 2001, when Bonds broke Mark McGwire's single-season home-run record (70) by belting 73, Bonds was using two designer steroids referred to as the Cream and the Clear, as well as insulin, human growth hormone, testosterone decanoate (a fast-acting steroid known as Mexican beans) and trenbolone, a steroid created to improve the muscle quality of cattle.

BALCO tracked Bonds' usage with doping calendars and folders -- detailing drugs, quantities, intervals and Bonds' testosterone levels -- that wound up in the hands of federal agents upon their Sept. 3, 2003 raid of the Burlingame, Calif., business.

Depending on the substance, Bonds used the drugs in virtually every conceivable form: injecting himself with a syringe or being injected by his trainer, Greg Anderson, swallowing pills, placing drops of liquid under his tongue, and, in the case of BALCO's notorious testosterone-based cream, applying it topically.

According to the book, Bonds gulped as many as 20 pills at a time and was so deeply reliant on his regimen that he ordered Anderson to start "cycles" -- a prescribed period of steroid use lasting about three weeks -- even when he was not due to begin one. Steroid users typically stop usage for a week or two periodically to allow the body to continue to produce natural testosterone; otherwise, such production diminishes or ceases with the continued introduction of synthetic forms of the muscle-building hormone.

Bonds called for the re-starting of cycles when he felt his energy and power start to drop. If Anderson told Bonds he was not due for another cycle, the authors write, Bonds would tell him, "F--- off, I'll do it myself.''

The authors compiled the information over a two-year investigation that included, but was not limited to, court documents, affidavits filed by BALCO investigators, confidential memoranda of federal agents (including statements made to them by athletes and trainers), grand jury testimony, audiotapes and interviews with more than 200 sources. Some of the information previously was reported by the authors in the Chronicle. Some of the information is new. For instance, in an extensive note on sourcing, the authors said memos detailing statements by BALCO owner Victor Conte, vice president James Valente and Anderson to IRS special agent Jeff Novitzky were sealed when they first consulted them, but have been unsealed since.

The preponderance of evidence is by far the most detailed and damning condemnation that Bonds, formerly a sleek five-tool player, built himself into a hulking, record-setting home run hitter at an advanced baseball age with a cornucopia of elaborate, illegally-administered chemicals. Through 1998, for instance, when he turned 34, Bonds averaged one home run every 16.1 at bats. Since then -- what the authors identify as the start of his doping regimen -- Bonds has hit home runs nearly twice as frequently (one every 8.5 at bats).

The authors describe how Bonds turned to steroids after the 1998 season because he was jealous of McGwire. Bonds hit 37 home runs in '98 -- a nice total and the fourth most of his career at that point -- but he was ignored by fans and the media who were captivated by McGwire's 70 home runs and his duel for the record with Sammy Sosa, who hit 66 that year.

According to the book, Bonds, in comments to his mistress, Kimberly Bell, often dismissed McGwire with racially-charged remarks such as, "They're just letting him do it because he's a white boy." But Bonds looked at McGwire and his hulking physique and decided he needed to dramatically increase his muscle mass to compete with him.

It was immediately after that 1998 season, the book said, that Bonds hooked up with Anderson, a gym rat known to obtain steroids and growth hormone from AIDS patients in San Francisco who were legally prescribed the drugs but sold them to make money. The authors write that the San Francisco Giants, Bonds' employer, would later discover through a background check that Anderson was connected to a gym that was known as a place to score steroids and that he was rumored to be a dealer. Yet the Giants -- who didn't want to upset their superstar -- continued to allow Anderson free reign about their ballpark and inside their clubhouse.

The authors write that Anderson started Bonds on Winstrol, also known as stanozolol, the longtime favorite steroid of bodybuilders, disgraced sprinter Ben Johnson and baseball player Rafael Palmeiro. In 100 days, Bonds packed on 15 pounds of muscle, and at age 35 hit home runs at the best rate of his career, once every 10.4 at bats. But he also grew too big, too fast. He tore his triceps tendon, telling Bell that the steroids "makes me grow faster, but if you're not careful, you can blow it out."

The book said Anderson and Bonds subsequently tweaked the program, adding such drugs as the steroid Deca-Durabolin and growth hormone, which allowed Bonds to retain his energy and physique without rigorous training. Not only did the growth hormone keep him fresh, but after complaining in 1999 about difficulty tracking pitches, he noticed it improved his eyesight as well.

Bonds added more drugs after the 2000 season, when Anderson hooked up Bonds with BALCO and its founder, Conte, according to the authors. In addition to the Cream and the Clear, the steroids designed to be undetectable, Bonds took such drugs as Clomid, a women's infertility drug thought to help a steroid user recover his natural testosterone production, and Modafinil, a narcolepsy drug used as a powerful stimulant.

Whereas Anderson's drug acumen had been forged in the gym culture, Conte and his chemists brought Bonds to another level of sophistication, by prescribing him elaborate cocktails of drugs designed to be even more effective and undetectable. For instance, the authors write that in 2002, when Bonds won his fifth MVP Award and had a .700 on-base percentage in the World Series, he was fueled by meticulous three-week cycles in which he injected growth hormone every other day, took the Cream and the Clear in the days in between, and capped the cycle with Clomid. The cycle was followed by one week off. The authors write that Anderson usually administered the drugs to Bonds at Bonds' home, using a needle to inject the growth hormone and a syringe without a needle to squirt the Clear under his tongue.

In addition to detailing the drug usage, the excerpt portrays Bonds as a menacing boor, a tax cheat and an adulterer given to (probably because of the rampant steroid use) sexual dysfunction, hair loss and wild mood swings that included periods of rage. The authors report that Bonds gave Bell, with whom he continued his affair after his second marriage in January 1998, $80,000 in cash in 2001 from memorabilia income not reported to the IRS. Theirs was a volatile relationship. Bell retained answering machine recordings of him after he threatened to kill her, remarking that if she disappeared no one would be able to prove he even knew her.

In 2003, as their relationship completely unraveled, Bell angered Bonds by showing up late for a hotel rendezvous. According to the excerpt, Bonds put his hand around her throat, pressed her against a wall and whispered, "If you ever f-----' pull some s--- like that again I'll kill you, do you understand me?"

A few weeks later, the authors write, Bonds told Bell, "You need to disappear."

In secret grand jury testimony obtained by the authors, Bonds testified that he did not know what the substances were that Anderson gave him and he put in his body, saying at one point, "It's like, 'Whatever, dude.'" Bonds testified under a grant of immunity, though he was told the immunity did not extend to perjury.

Bonds begins this season with 708 home runs, seven short of passing Babe Ruth for second on the all-time list and 48 from surpassing Hank Aaron as the all-time leader. Three knee surgeries limited Bonds to 14 games last season, have reduced his mobility and left in question his fitness for regular duty this year.

In October, Conte was sentenced to four months in prison and four months of home confinement as part of a plea deal with prosecutors. Anderson pled guilty to money laundering and a steroid distribution charge. He was sentenced to three months in prison and three months of home confinement. Valente pled guilty to reduced charges of steroid distribution and was sentenced to probation.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/magazine/03/06/growth.doc0313/

The Documentation
The authors' extensive research produced compelling evidence of Bonds' use of performance enhancers


By Mark Fainaru-Wada and Lance Williams

This narrative is based on more than a thousand pages of documents and interviews with more than 200 people, many of whom we spoke to repeatedly. In our reporting on the BALCO story for the San Francisco Chronicle, we obtained transcripts of the secret grand jury testimony of Barry Bonds and seven other prominent professional athletes. We also reviewed confidential memorandums detailing federal agents' interviews with other athletes and trainers who had direct knowledge of BALCO. Sealed material we reviewed also included unredacted versions of affidavits filed by the BALCO investigators; e-mail between BALCO owner Victor Conte and several athletes and coaches regarding the use and distribution of drugs; a list of evidence seized from the BALCO storage locker; and a document prepared to brief participants in the raid on BALCO.

Memos detailing the statements of Conte, BALCO vice president James Valente and Bonds's trainer, Greg Anderson, to IRS special agent Jeff Novitzky were sealed when we first reviewed them, but they have since become part of the public file in the BALCO case. The BALCO search warrant affidavits and other court records provided significant information. We also obtained a recording made without Anderson's knowledge in 2003 by a person familiar with Bonds's trainer; in it, Anderson acknowledged that Bonds was using an undetectable performance-enhancing drug to beat baseball's drug tests. Kimberly Bell, Bonds's former girlfriend, provided legal correspondence, transcripts, audiotapes of voice mail and many documents regarding her relationship with Bonds.

We conducted our interviews about BALCO from September 2003 until the autumn of '05. The names of many of our sources appear in the text or in the extensive chapter notes included in Game of Shadows. Some sources requested anonymity to avoid interfering with the federal BALCO investigation and a related grand jury probe that continued into '05. Some additional information about sources who requested anonymity appears in the chapter notes.

When they raided BALCO in September 2003, federal investigators began to accumulate evidence that Bonds was a steroid user. By the summer of '05, investigators had convincing proof that he had been using performance-enhancing drugs for years and that drugs had been provided to him by Anderson, who obtained them from BALCO and other sources. The evidence also showed that Bonds had not been truthful when he told the BALCO grand jury under oath that he hadn't knowingly used steroids.

After his grand jury appearance, Bonds continued to insist publicly that he had never used banned drugs, and the San Francisco Giants, who were paying him $90 million over five years, made no move to investigate his conduct or restrict his contact with suspected steroid dealers, arguing that there was no proof of wrongdoing.

Nevertheless, proof of Bonds's drug use exists, most of it in the possession of federal agents, much of it in the public domain. The evidence includes the statements of confessed steroid dealers, the account of a Bonds confidant as well as considerable documentary and circumstantial evidence. It also includes the account of a source familiar with Bonds who has specific knowledge of his use of banned drugs. That evidence forms the foundation of this narrative. Here is the evidence in review.

•Statements to Federal Agents

1. When he was questioned during the raid, BALCO's James Valente told Novitzky that Bonds had received the undetectable steroids the Cream and the Clear from BALCO. Valente said Anderson had brought Bonds to BALCO before the 2003 season, seeking steroids that would not show up on drug tests. Valente said he provided Anderson with drugs to give to Bonds. Valente pleaded guilty to a steroid conspiracy charge in 2005.


2. In his own statement during the raid, Conte gave an identical account of Anderson's bringing Bonds to BALCO and Bonds's subsequent use of the Cream and the Clear. Conte said Bonds used the drugs on a regular basis. Conte later claimed Novitzky's report contained words he never said. But it is significant that in 2005, Conte backed out of an evidentiary hearing in which he could have confronted Novitzky about the supposedly incorrect statements and sought to have them thrown out of court. Instead, Conte pleaded guilty to a steroid conspiracy charge.

3. When Anderson was questioned by agents on the day of the raid, he admitted giving banned drugs to many of his "baseball clients" but denied giving drugs to Bonds. In a search of Anderson's residence, agents found calendars referring to Bonds that plotted his use of steroids. When the agents sought to question Anderson about the calendars, the trainer said he didn't think he should talk anymore because he didn't want to go to jail. He pleaded guilty to steroid conspiracy and acknowledged in court that he dealt drugs to baseball players.

4. In the summer of 2004 the former Olympic shot putter C. J. Hunter told agent Novitzky that Conte had confided to him that Bonds was using the Clear. Hunter said their conversation had taken place in '03. Hunter's lawyer later said the federal agent's report was incorrect and that Conte had not implicated Bonds to Hunter.

• U.S. Grand Jury Testimony

1. In 2005 Kimberly Bell told the BALCO grand jury that in '00 Bonds had confided in her that he was using steroids, saying they helped him recover from injuries but also blaming them for the elbow injury that sidelined him in 1999.

2. In 2003 sprinter Tim Montgomery told the grand jury that when he visited BALCO in '00 or '01, he saw vials of the steroid Winstrol in BALCO's weight room. Montgomery testified that Conte said he was giving Winstrol to Bonds.

3. In 2003 five baseball players told the grand jury that they'd gotten steroids, growth hormone and other drugs from Anderson, whom they had met in his role as Bonds's trainer. The obvious import of their testimony was that they were receiving the same drugs that Anderson was giving Bonds, but the players claimed no direct knowledge of Bonds's steroid use.

• Documents

At Anderson's apartment, investigators found steroids, growth hormone and $60,000 in cash, along with a folder that contained doping calendars and other documents detailing Bonds's use of steroids. Prosecutors questioned Bonds about the documents during his appearance before the grand jury. Some document entries reflect payments for drugs for Bonds: $1,500 for two boxes of growth hormone; $450 for a bottle of Depotestosterone; $100 for 100 Clomiphene pills; $200 for the Cream and the Clear. Other entries reflect Bonds's drug cycle: For February 2002, a calendar showed alternating days of the Cream, the Clear and growth hormone followed by "Clow," or Clomid.

A document labeled "BLB 2003" listed cities where the Giants played away games in 2003, with notations for the use of growth hormone, the Clear, the Cream and insulin on specific days. Other documents associated with Bonds referred to the use of trenbolone and "beans," the Mexican steroid. At Anderson's apartment, and in a search of BALCO's trash, the agents also found evidence of Bonds's blood being sent to drug labs for steroid testing.

• Circumstantial Evidence

To some experts, the changes in Bonds's body in recent years constitute persuasive evidence of steroid use. No one at his age could put on so much muscle without using steroids, these observers reason.

According to team media guides, which are often imprecise, Bonds has grown one inch in height and gained 43 pounds since his rookie year of 1986. In 2004, the Giants reported his weight as 228, but sources familiar with Bonds say he was heavier. Bonds himself has claimed all the weight gain is muscle, not fat. In '97, when the Giants reported that he weighed 206, Bonds told USA Today that his body fat was an extraordinarily low 8%. In '02, when Bonds's weight was listed at 228, Greg Anderson told The New York Times Magazine that Bonds's body fat was even lower: 6.2%.

The belief that the changes in Bonds's body reflect steroid use is supported by the research of Harvard psychiatrist Harrison Pope, an expert on the mental-health effects of steroid abuse. In 1995, in The Clinical Journal of Sports Medicine, Pope and three colleagues published a mathematical formula for use in determining whether a person is using steroids. The "Fat-Free Mass Index," as the formula is called, predicts steroid use from a series of computations involving the subject's "lean muscle mass," which is determined from height, weight and percentage of body fat. The higher the index number, the leaner and more muscular the individual is. The average 30-year-old American male scores 20, Pope says, while the former Mr. America Steve Reeves, the most famous muscle man of the presteroid era, scored 25 in his prime. A score of more than 25 indicates steroid use.

In 1997, when Bonds reportedly weighed 206 and had 8% body fat, he scored 24.8 on the index. In 2002, when Bonds reportedly weighed 228 and had body fat of 6.2% his score was 28 -- well over the level of a "presumptive diagnosis" of steroid use.

Issue date: March 13, 2006

not because of its relation to Bonds just because I didnt know it existed.

are always credible.

i'm still not sure what the big controversey is though, even if he did use... it wasn't a banned substance, he didn't cheat.

n/m


----------------------------


O_E: Your Super-Ego's Favorite Poster.



"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "Cosmic Slop

...

So if that's where you fall on this debate, then essentially, you also agree that there is nothing wrong with McGwire, Sosa, Giambi and the like, who have never been caught since its been against MLB policy right? If that's the case, it's a different argument. In essence, you believe pre-roids policy it was ok to use, and I can understand that.

I'm very much someone who dislikes the roiding even before baseball acted. It was still an illegal act. As I've said before. Fuck Bonds, fuck McGwire, fuck Giambi, fuck Sosa, Fuck palmeiro, fuck Sheffield (although in truth, I didn't like him even when I didn't think he was dirty).

I just don't wanna hear any more of that "it's never been proven" bullshit.

-------------------
RIP Puck
There'll never be anyone else quite like Kirby Puckett.

>So if that's where you fall on this debate, then essentially,
>you also agree that there is nothing wrong with McGwire, Sosa,
>Giambi and the like, who have never been caught since its been
>against MLB policy right? If that's the case, it's a different
>argument. In essence, you believe pre-roids policy it was ok
>to use, and I can understand that.
>
>I'm very much someone who dislikes the roiding even before
>baseball acted. It was still an illegal act. As I've said
>before. Fuck Bonds, fuck McGwire, fuck Giambi, fuck Sosa, Fuck
>palmeiro, fuck Sheffield (although in truth, I didn't like him
>even when I didn't think he was dirty).

I don't need a weak-ass MLB steroid policy to tell me whether or not bonds/sosa/mcguire were being dishonest.


>I just don't wanna hear any more of that "it's never been
>proven" bullshit.

that's what I'm getting at with this post.

the people who are up in arms about players using steroids are the same ones who will bitch about a player not playing to win or going through the motions.

so you have to be willing to do anything to win, except not the stuff we tell you not to do, except it wasn't against the rules?

what the fuck kind of logic is that?

Steroids and performance enhancing drugs are dishonest. In a sport that bases its identity on the all-time greats and their records, Bonds/Mcguire/Sosa's achievements are a joke to me.

>the people who are up in arms about players using steroids
>are the same ones who will bitch about a player not playing to
>win or going through the motions.
>
>so you have to be willing to do anything to win, except not
>the stuff we tell you not to do, except it wasn't against the
>rules?
>
>what the fuck kind of logic is that?

i don't know, you'll have to talk to "the people." I can only speak for myself. Steroids are not an acceptable form of 'doing whatever it takes to win'.

getting a knee surgery that wouldn't have been possible 30 years ago is okay?

cortisone shots are cool?

anti-inflams that have at the very least strong anecdotal evidence (see: alonzo mourning; sean elliot) of causing kidney problems are okay?

so basically it's okay to take performance-enabling drugs, but not performance enhancing drugs?

but i know which side of the line steroids are on.

that's why i'm asking.

it would appear that you're avoiding this argument because you know you can't win it.

that's fine.

if you want to damn a guy because you feel that he's damnable and you think he did something wrong, that's your right, but i personally think it has a lot of holes in it.

they would murder other teams stars. It's not banned by baseball. That would be doing everything to win.

Reminds me of The Last Boy Scout when dude pulled out a gun and started shooting people trying to tackle him.

between steroids and anything else allowed by the mlb.

if you're debating the legality of it, sure, it's a shame that folks are breaking the law. but it's a lot less upsetting than oh, i don't know, leonard little for example.

i don't give a shit if he did or didn't. he's still the greatest player of my generation (if you want to call the players i grew up watching 'my generation') and i like watching him hit baseballs.

between steroids and anything else allowed by the mlb.

if you're debating the legality of it, sure, it's a shame that folks are breaking the law. but it's a lot less upsetting than oh, i don't know, leonard little for example.

i don't give a shit if he did or didn't. he's still the greatest player of my generation (if you want to call the players i grew up watching 'my generation') and i like watching him hit baseballs.

>i'm still not sure what the big controversey is though, even
>if he did use... it wasn't a banned substance, he didn't
>cheat.

from: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2217361

"Baseball ignored its own rules about steroids. In 1991, then-Commissioner Fay Vincent effectively put steroids on baseball's list of banned substances in a memo sent to all MLB teams. Baseball could not test for steroids, the memo said, but should a player be caught with steroids, he would be sent for treatment and subject to penalties. This memo was never publicized and, seemingly, was largely ignored by both management and the players' union. Commissioner Bud Selig reissued the same memo in 1997, with minor changes but with the same lack of conviction. Several GMs at the time tell ESPN the Magazine the memo probably was lost in the blizzard of other paperwork coming out of the commissioner's office."

Obviously, this "ban" is almost completely impotent, but the governing bodies for different sports do stuff like this all the time so there's a discipline mechanism in place in case somebody is stupid enough to say, get caught with steroids in their car like Manny Alexander in 2000. Alexander's only "punishment", I believe, was to be tested for steroids - which turned up negative and prompted no further disciplinary action.

In any case, it's perfectly accurate to say that baseball never demonstrated any interest in drug testing or that baseball's drug testing was so thoroughly defanged as to make it effectively non-existent. But it isn't accurate to say that steroids weren't banned.

but like you said, it wasn't enforced in any way, and in my opinion no precedent=effectively no law.

---------------------------------------
Riley: "Gangstalicious got shot, we got to do something!"

Huey: "I got an idea, lets go to college, so we don't end up like Gangstalicious."

thats the only thing i can't figure out
u see his arms and shoulders when he was in that dress?
why didn't get smaller like giambi and them?
anyway fuck barry bonds
fake ass theo huxtable ass nigga

>u see his arms and shoulders when he was in that dress?

Probably a waste of time asking you to qualify with a 'no homo', but I'm sayin.



----------------------------


O_E: Your Super-Ego's Favorite Poster.



"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "Cosmic Slop

uh he was wearing a dress the other week for some promo shit
and alot of news was on his arms and shoulders, because they were so developed...even tho he's missed alot of time
my question is, how did he maintain that physical level if he had to stop using steriods

everyone makes this assumption that with supposed stricter testing policies that everyone did a 'Lattimer' and flushed all their shit down the toilet and went cold turkey. testing is a joke, PERIOD. you can get around it. it's almost smarter to keep up with whatever youre doing than going off and shrinking like Sosa and Giambi did, cause then it makes it incredibly obvious of what you were doing in the past.

bonds is still holding a ton of water weight. dude is bloated as fuck.

I don't know why Bonds would automatically quit because his chances of being caught went from .0000000001% to .01%.

injury and illness...... Giambi had that parasidic condition that caused him to loose weight..... Ryan Klesko had a shoulder injury and thus could not work out...

Barry's injury was to his lower body, so the fact that he was out for most of the year...couldn't run....gained weight...but could still lift is why he's still got mass....

barry's performance this season will be interesting

The book said Anderson and Bonds subsequently tweaked the program, adding such drugs as the steroid Deca-Durabolin and growth hormone, which allowed Bonds to retain his energy and physique without rigorous training. Not only did the growth hormone keep him fresh, but after complaining in 1999 about difficulty tracking pitches, he noticed it improved his eyesight as well.

but they werent' hearing it. I feel vindicated.

>The book said Anderson and Bonds subsequently tweaked the
>program, adding such drugs as the steroid Deca-Durabolin and
>growth hormone, which allowed Bonds to retain his energy and
>physique without rigorous training. Not only did the growth
>hormone keep him fresh, but after complaining in 1999 about
>difficulty tracking pitches, he noticed it improved his
>eyesight as well.


• Okayplayer Rookie of the Year
____

Stay calm, he got this ----> http://img376.imageshack.us/img376/2192/kbfinals258dd.jpg

a) Bonds is an asshole, which means that his defenders will use his attitude as the reason the accusations persisit and will provide for reason enough that Bonds will never be forthcoming about what he was doing with Anderson and BALCO.
b) We won't know for sure untill he dies/doesn't die in the next 10 years of massive kidney failure. Even then, his supporters will say that nothing is conclusive, like how you don't know which cigarette it is that causes lung cancer.

>b) We won't know for sure untill he dies/doesn't die in the
>next 10 years of massive kidney failure.

and strictly within 10 years? WOW. a lot of lucky cats walking around then....

And the sideeffects are all commisorate with the amount of cycles and range of drugs you're taking. If it's like these two author's are saying, he'll start showing signs very soon. but something about both Bonds' attitude and fear of what his public persona has become tells me he'll be far far from the public's eye after this season, so we may never know if his body starts failing on him.

>commisorate with the amount of
>cycles and range of drugs you're taking. If it's like these
>two author's are saying, he'll start showing signs very soon.
>but something about both Bonds' attitude and fear of what his
>public persona has become tells me he'll be far far from the
>public's eye after this season, so we may never know if his
>body starts failing on him.

>And the sideeffects are all commisorate with the amount of
>cycles and range of drugs you're taking.

true....

But he was/is supposedly on testosterone and GH, right? Your liver wouldnt be affected much by those two drugs.

>If it's like these
>two author's are saying, he'll start showing signs very soon.

I didn't read the article. But that's really not true, if that's what they said. How the fuck would they know what he took, or what each individual drug does/causes? Like I said, the ones that he's at least accused of taking wouldnt be a problem. But they're baseball writers - what would they know about steroids?

And in regards to your assertion that Bond's will suffer from liver failure within 10 years is really, really not true as well. Your liver is a fucking tank. It can take A LOT of abuse. The whole notion that steroids cause extensive liver damage came under false pretenses. Basically, when they first started doing tests on drug using bodybuilders, they found elevated aminotransferase levels (liver enzymes, AST/ALT's specifically). So, they made the leap in logic that steroids=liver damage without doing any further investigation. What they failed to realize at the time was that exercise-induced muscle damage (ie. lifting weights) alone can cause a rise in aminotransferase levels. More thorough indicators of liver damage need to be performed (ie. GGT) when attempting to distinguish between exercise induced muslce damage and drug induced liver damage (steroids or even more notably alcohol).

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=11476029&query_hl=4&itool=pubmed_docsum

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=11476029&query_hl=4&itool=pubmed_docsum

No Barry Bonds didn't cheat because what he did wasn't against the rules of baseball.
End of Story

It was on the banned substances list for well over a decade when the Balco scandal broke open.

It just wasn't able to be enforced in the form of testing because of the labor agreement with the player's union.

taking out a gun and shooting the pitcher.....So that would not be against the rules of baseball using your reasoning...although it would be illegal in society...


did he cheat..in the hair splitting manner some are using..maybe not..

but he not only did something illegal...he also is going for a record that should very much be tainted by his illegal activity....

Barry, the Players union, and MLB are all culpable in this...

but trying to gloss over what has gone on is a joke.

baseball is a joke with it's "drug testing" and "steroid policy"

barry bonds used steroids, etc, in order to threaten the all-time home run record. (along with sosa, mcguire, giami, palmiero)

that's the end of the story.

a lot of this info is from his EX-mistress that he kicked to the curb so I'm sure she probably has an axe to grind

Notice the authors of the book are the reporters who covered this story for the SF Chronicle. Yet neither of these guys actually, you know, reported this stuff to this extent while working with the paper. This leads me to draw two possible conclusions:

1. They were concerned about making the most many that they could out of this story. Now as someone who's worked at a few newspapers in my life, I understand this: the pay sucks (even for a large paper like the SF Chronicle)and you need to make money where you can. But also speaking as a former reporter, ethically it's kind of skeevy. Can you imagine every reporter holding out on breaking a huge story until they got a book deal?

2. Maybe they're evidence isn't as clear cut as they're letting on. When you write for a prestegious daily newspaper and you're going to print something as controversial as proof that Barry Bonds was a major steroid user for years, you better damn well make sure you've got all your ducks in a row or you are going to get yourself and the paper in some serious shit. An editor of a paper like the Chronicle wouldn't print something like this unless he/she was convinced that the story was ironclad, lest he/she begin incur a huge libel lawsuit. If you're publishing a book, the threshold sometimes isn't set as high. Sure there are fact checkers, but then again, Jose Canseco's autobiography was printed with him saying he struck out in Game 6 of the 2000 World Series.

I'm not saying what these guys wrote isn't true, but you have to look a little deeper before you except what they've wrote as total fact just because you want to believe it.

the Chronicle was the paper that leaked the BALCO testimony and have long been the clearing house of information about athletes connected with BALCO and the grand jury since way back when.

I live in the Bay, so I've been reading this shit in the Chronicle as its unfolded. And these guys have NEVER reported that Bonds had used steroids to this extent. This is the first time they've flat out said Bonds was using steroids for years, rather than reporting someone linked to the BALCO case said they heard Bonds was being given the clear.

personally there's too much corroborating evidence in the form of testimony and federal documents for me to really doubt the basic points these guys are making.

not to mention the fact that balco created steroid regimens. professional ball players have testified that they got these regimens from barry's trainer. and there are documents and email seized in the balco trial that have barry's fingerprints all over them.

lol @ the calendar of SF Giants away games. that's quite a coincidence.




>Notice the authors of the book are the reporters who covered
>this story for the SF Chronicle. Yet neither of these guys
>actually, you know, reported this stuff to this extent while
>working with the paper. This leads me to draw two possible
>conclusions:
>
>1. They were concerned about making the most many that they
>could out of this story. Now as someone who's worked at a few
>newspapers in my life, I understand this: the pay sucks (even
>for a large paper like the SF Chronicle)and you need to make
>money where you can. But also speaking as a former reporter,
>ethically it's kind of skeevy. Can you imagine every reporter
>holding out on breaking a huge story until they got a book
>deal?
>
>2. Maybe they're evidence isn't as clear cut as they're
>letting on. When you write for a prestegious daily newspaper
>and you're going to print something as controversial as proof
>that Barry Bonds was a major steroid user for years, you
>better damn well make sure you've got all your ducks in a row
>or you are going to get yourself and the paper in some serious
>shit. An editor of a paper like the Chronicle wouldn't print
>something like this unless he/she was convinced that the story
>was ironclad, lest he/she begin incur a huge libel lawsuit. If
>you're publishing a book, the threshold sometimes isn't set as
>high. Sure there are fact checkers, but then again, Jose
>Canseco's autobiography was printed with him saying he struck
>out in Game 6 of the 2000 World Series.
>
>I'm not saying what these guys wrote isn't true, but you have
>to look a little deeper before you except what they've wrote
>as total fact just because you want to believe it.
>

>

It's either not to have them at all or not to dump them.

>It's either not to have them at all

I believe it. Once you've piled up a few MVPs, turning down all the sex being offered to you must be an immense administrative hassle. Unless you want to hire a secretary to review applicants, there really a whole lot of options.

who can write up a solid non-disclosure contract.

>I believe it. Once you've piled up a few MVPs, turning down
>all the sex being offered to you must be an immense
>administrative hassle. Unless you want to hire a secretary to
>review applicants, there really a whole lot of options.

Then wrote a book. Great.

I reckon some of this is true, some tainted, some complete BS.

I mean...I have my favorite players....but I also have 2 eyes that can see....

You've seen Barry on the Pirates....

You've seen him for the last few years....

You saw Sammy on the Sox and Rangers...

You saw McGuirre on the A's early...

You saw him break Maris record....

you can count the number of years from 1964, to 2000 to now...

You see the numbers....

You know that although illegal in society, steroids were not tested for in Baseball....

You know that human growth hormones are not detectable by current testing in baseball....

You've seen all that, and for whatever reason, y'all are unwilling to admit something that is as obvious as it gets.....

just amazing.

I have been trying to communicate this shit for years, I wish you better success than I've had

doesn't mean a lot nowadays...maybe if the San Francisco Giants had won a world series in their history it would matter...but since they haven't **shrugs**

but seriously...I'm just being honest..the excuses and pleas that are being copped for this guy are just beyond amazing.

>doesn't mean a lot nowadays...maybe if the San Francisco
>Giants had won a world series in their history it would
>matter...but since they haven't **shrugs**
>

...and love to take a shot at a Giant. lol!!

>but seriously...I'm just being honest..the excuses and pleas
>that are being copped for this guy are just beyond amazing.

Its not pleas, its keeping things in perspective. Barry Bonds ain't the bad guy in all of this. HE did what everybody else did. Everybody suspects, supporters and non-supporters of Bonds,that he took *something* other than vitamins. But to pile up on him disproportionately when other players have done is what the root of the problem is.

>>doesn't mean a lot nowadays...maybe if the San Francisco
>>Giants had won a world series in their history it would
>>matter...but since they haven't **shrugs**
>>
>
>...and love to take a shot at a Giant. lol!!

in fact I'd probably be inclined to like Barry Bonds (if he didn't come across as such a cry baby a-hole for so many years) because I like his father as a player (showing my age...lol)...

Willie McCovey is one of 5 favorite baseball players ever.....my #1 favorite Baseball player ever was the Giants manager for many years, Dusty Baker....

don't hate the Giants at all...but I am a Dodger fan..

I don't really hate any of my teams main rivals really...at least not anymore.....Love and hate don't have to co-exist in sports....

>
>>but seriously...I'm just being honest..the excuses and pleas
>>that are being copped for this guy are just beyond amazing.
>
>Its not pleas, its keeping things in perspective.

it's pleas man....people playing the race card with a cat who 10 years ago would have cursed you out for coming at him with some Black stuff......and saying "everyone else does it" to justify or minimize the issue..

those are pleas and excuses man...

Barry Bonds
>ain't the bad guy in all of this.

yeah he is. But there are culpable elements...Major league Baseball..and the players union are culpable...but Barry Bonds is responsible for what he did..as with any grown man.

How can we say he's the stand up Black man getting attacked by the White devils, and then say that he's so weak that he is not responsible for what he does....

can't have it both ways man.

HE did what everybody else
>did.

and if my son came to me and used that as an excuse as to why he got in trouble...he's going to get in extra trouble with me......


Everybody suspects, supporters and non-supporters of
>Bonds,that he took *something* other than vitamins. But to
>pile up on him disproportionately when other players have done
>is what the root of the problem is.

he's being piled upon...yet he was given a pass on testifying in front of congress??? he's being piled upon yet he is being accused of doing something that is illegal, and he's not been arrested, indited or anything of the sort....

he's being piled upon????

no way...

the fact that a guy who is a great player is under this suspistion....and hasn't been man enough to come clean on what he's done...is a story...it's a big story, and it deserves to be covered...and even in the coverage..he's getting a pass at every turn.....Don't let his cry baby act fool you about he and his family being destroyed by the media...the facts...the plain and simple facts show that to be pure and utter bullsh*t

>>>doesn't mean a lot nowadays...maybe if the San Francisco
>>>Giants had won a world series in their history it would
>>>matter...but since they haven't **shrugs**
>>>
>>
>>...and love to take a shot at a Giant. lol!!
>
>in fact I'd probably be inclined to like Barry Bonds (if he
>didn't come across as such a cry baby a-hole for so many
>years) because I like his father as a player (showing my
>age...lol)...
>
>Willie McCovey is one of 5 favorite baseball players
>ever.....my #1 favorite Baseball player ever was the Giants
>manager for many years, Dusty Baker....
>
>don't hate the Giants at all...but I am a Dodger fan..
>
>I don't really hate any of my teams main rivals really...at
>least not anymore.....Love and hate don't have to co-exist in
>sports....
>
>>
>>>but seriously...I'm just being honest..the excuses and
>pleas
>>>that are being copped for this guy are just beyond amazing.
>>
>>Its not pleas, its keeping things in perspective.
>
>it's pleas man....people playing the race card with a cat who
>10 years ago would have cursed you out for coming at him with
>some Black stuff......and saying "everyone else does it" to
>justify or minimize the issue..
>
>those are pleas and excuses man...
>

Its not necessarily the race card. Last time I checked, Barry was on some OJ Simpson sh*t. lol!! Its not like we are talking about MLB's version of Jim Brown here.

>Barry Bonds
>>ain't the bad guy in all of this.
>
>yeah he is. But there are culpable elements...Major league
>Baseball..and the players union are culpable...but Barry Bonds
>is responsible for what he did..as with any grown man.
>

True.


>How can we say he's the stand up Black man getting attacked by
>the White devils, and then say that he's so weak that he is
>not responsible for what he does....
>

Who is saying he is a stand-up Black man. I don't think anybody is. He is man, who happens to be black, that speaks his mind and is his own person. THAT is problem for a lot of whites. Whether you are a pro-black panther type cat or a Theo Huxtable type cat?


>can't have it both ways man.
>
> HE did what everybody else
>>did.
>
>and if my son came to me and used that as an excuse as to why
>he got in trouble...he's going to get in extra trouble with
>me......
>

I'm not lessoning what he did. But if you are going to attack him in the same vile manner, lets go after everybody. Everybody is fair game. Steriods, cheating was as much as part of the game as chewing tabacco. Let's be real. MLB knew it and did nothing about it, which enabled the use and really suggests they approved of it.


>
>Everybody suspects, supporters and non-supporters of
>>Bonds,that he took *something* other than vitamins. But to
>>pile up on him disproportionately when other players have
>done
>>is what the root of the problem is.
>
>he's being piled upon...yet he was given a pass on testifying
>in front of congress??? he's being piled upon yet he is being
>accused of doing something that is illegal, and he's not been
>arrested, indited or anything of the sort....
>
>he's being piled upon????
>
>no way...
>

Yes he is being piled upon. Everything that is coming out is nothing new. Why should this be any shock. Its just redundant and reaks of an agenda. Its the same thing over and over again. Its character assasination. The fact that he is black, successful, and isn't a programmed robot adds fuel to the fire, Warren. Come on, let's be real. You know this.

>the fact that a guy who is a great player is under this
>suspistion....and hasn't been man enough to come clean on what
>he's done...is a story...it's a big story, and it deserves to
>be covered...and even in the coverage..he's getting a pass at
>every turn.....Don't let his cry baby act fool you about he
>and his family being destroyed by the media...the facts...the
>plain and simple facts show that to be pure and utter
>bullsh*t
>
>


Getting a pass? Warren, are you serious!? Now THAT is bullsh*t. What newspaper do you read and what news channels do you watch? You would think Barry is Satan, from everything I read and hear on then news. Its way overboard. Sure, Barry brought some of this on himself. But the media is trying to destroy him when they know good and well that they have an agenda that is bigger than seeking "justice" against Bonds only for the simple fact that he ALLEGEDLY knew he took steriods.

>>>>doesn't mean a lot nowadays...maybe if the San Francisco
>>>>Giants had won a world series in their history it would
>>>>matter...but since they haven't **shrugs**
>>>>
>>>
>>>...and love to take a shot at a Giant. lol!!
>>
>>in fact I'd probably be inclined to like Barry Bonds (if he
>>didn't come across as such a cry baby a-hole for so many
>>years) because I like his father as a player (showing my
>>age...lol)...
>>
>>Willie McCovey is one of 5 favorite baseball players
>>ever.....my #1 favorite Baseball player ever was the Giants
>>manager for many years, Dusty Baker....
>>
>>don't hate the Giants at all...but I am a Dodger fan..
>>
>>I don't really hate any of my teams main rivals really...at
>>least not anymore.....Love and hate don't have to co-exist
>in
>>sports....
>>
>>>
>>>>but seriously...I'm just being honest..the excuses and
>>pleas
>>>>that are being copped for this guy are just beyond
>amazing.
>>>
>>>Its not pleas, its keeping things in perspective.
>>
>>it's pleas man....people playing the race card with a cat
>who
>>10 years ago would have cursed you out for coming at him
>with
>>some Black stuff......and saying "everyone else does it" to
>>justify or minimize the issue..
>>
>>those are pleas and excuses man...
>>
>
>Its not necessarily the race card. Last time I checked, Barry
>was on some OJ Simpson sh*t. lol!! Its not like we are talking
>about MLB's version of Jim Brown here.

exactly....not you, but others on this board have acted like Barry Bonds was Paul robeson or something....lol

dude is conveniently Black....when he's in trouble ya know...

>
>>Barry Bonds
>>>ain't the bad guy in all of this.
>>
>>yeah he is. But there are culpable elements...Major league
>>Baseball..and the players union are culpable...but Barry
>Bonds
>>is responsible for what he did..as with any grown man.
>>
>
>True.
>
>
>>How can we say he's the stand up Black man getting attacked
>by
>>the White devils, and then say that he's so weak that he is
>>not responsible for what he does....
>>
>
>Who is saying he is a stand-up Black man. I don't think
>anybody is.

stick around this post..you'll see it....lol.

He is man, who happens to be black, that speaks
>his mind and is his own person. THAT is problem for a lot of
>whites. Whether you are a pro-black panther type cat or a Theo
>Huxtable type cat?

aww Jam.....You hurt my heart brother.....What would make Theo huxtable the antithesis of being a pro-black panther??? The guys who started the Panthers were educated folks....being bright and carrying yourself with that type of dignity doesn't mean one can't be revolutionary pro-Black......

and remember Theo's character chose a career in educating young people, which is very much in line with the Black panther agenda no???

I know that it's totally off topic, and I may be a bit touchy today, but since you're someone I respect on here I feel it cool to say that....A "Theo" type isn't going to face any less challenges from a White power structure than a kid from the streets..and in fact will probably face more......So they don't need us to divide them away from being "pro-Black"

can't have it both ways man.
>>
>> HE did what everybody else
>>>did.
>>
>>and if my son came to me and used that as an excuse as to
>why
>>he got in trouble...he's going to get in extra trouble with
>>me......
>>
>
>I'm not lessoning what he did. But if you are going to attack
>him in the same vile manner, lets go after everybody.

How vile is it though Jam??? I don't see anything vile at all about how he's being treated.....the most famous player in a sport is being accused of something that is not only illegal, but also calls into question his accomplishments...

are they supposed to NOT cover the story??

are they dragging his late father, or his wife and kids through the mud??? are the going after his godfather Willie Mays as being Culpable???

The only think close to it was them reporting what his mistress said under oath....had she just said they had an affair, they wouldn't have covered it...but she said he was on roids, so that made it news.


>Everybody is fair game. Steriods, cheating was as much as part
>of the game as chewing tabacco.

Chewing tabacco is not illegal.

Let's be real. MLB knew it and
>did nothing about it, which enabled the use and really
>suggests they approved of it.

and MLB is responsible for that...I agree.

>
>
>>
>>Everybody suspects, supporters and non-supporters of
>>>Bonds,that he took *something* other than vitamins. But to
>>>pile up on him disproportionately when other players have
>>done
>>>is what the root of the problem is.
>>
>>he's being piled upon...yet he was given a pass on
>testifying
>>in front of congress??? he's being piled upon yet he is
>being
>>accused of doing something that is illegal, and he's not
>been
>>arrested, indited or anything of the sort....
>>
>>he's being piled upon????
>>
>>no way...
>>
>
>Yes he is being piled upon. Everything that is coming out is
>nothing new. Why should this be any shock.

it's enough of a shock for people to continue to deny he's on roids, or to make excuses.

and really the fact he hasn't come clean is another reason.

Its just redundant
>and reaks of an agenda.

So you're saying that folks should just forget about it...or pretend that he hasn't used roids??? It's a big story, and it's a story that's gonna get covered.

Its the same thing over and over
>again.

actually it's DIFFERENT PEOPLE saying the same thing...and since there are folks who are still defending him....since he's still denying it.....and since he's on pace to set some pretty monumental records...it's still a story in progress.

Its character assasination.

no..it's a guy getting his card pulled, and getting exposed for a truth, he continues to lie about. That happens when you cheat..and when you do things that are illegal.


The fact that he is black,
>successful, and isn't a programmed robot adds fuel to the
>fire, Warren. Come on, let's be real. You know this.


But Black people being treated differently in society is a given. That's how it works. But that doesn't change the fact that the guy was on steroids. and that steroids are illegal.


>
>>the fact that a guy who is a great player is under this
>>suspistion....and hasn't been man enough to come clean on
>what
>>he's done...is a story...it's a big story, and it deserves
>to
>>be covered...and even in the coverage..he's getting a pass
>at
>>every turn.....Don't let his cry baby act fool you about he
>>and his family being destroyed by the media...the
>facts...the
>>plain and simple facts show that to be pure and utter
>>bullsh*t
>>
>>
>
>
>Getting a pass? Warren, are you serious!? Now THAT is
>bullsh*t. What newspaper do you read and what news channels do
>you watch?

They are covering a big story...that's what the media does.

You would think Barry is Satan, from everything I
>read and hear on then news.

no..you would think he used steroids.

Its way overboard. Sure, Barry
>brought some of this on himself.
But the media is trying to
>destroy him when they know good and well that they have an
>agenda that is bigger than seeking "justice" against Bonds
>only for the simple fact that he ALLEGEDLY knew he took
>steriods.

By getting a pass...I meant that he, even though being the most recognized Baseball player in the world.....with the greatest level of suspision...was not called to testify as others were in front of congress...

so explain that....how is he getting demonized like you're saying, yet wasn't seen as being needed to testify in front of congress????

>>>>>doesn't mean a lot nowadays...maybe if the San Francisco
>>>>>Giants had won a world series in their history it would
>>>>>matter...but since they haven't **shrugs**
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>...and love to take a shot at a Giant. lol!!
>>>
>>>in fact I'd probably be inclined to like Barry Bonds (if he
>>>didn't come across as such a cry baby a-hole for so many
>>>years) because I like his father as a player (showing my
>>>age...lol)...
>>>
>>>Willie McCovey is one of 5 favorite baseball players
>>>ever.....my #1 favorite Baseball player ever was the Giants
>>>manager for many years, Dusty Baker....
>>>
>>>don't hate the Giants at all...but I am a Dodger fan..
>>>
>>>I don't really hate any of my teams main rivals really...at
>>>least not anymore.....Love and hate don't have to co-exist
>>in
>>>sports....
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>but seriously...I'm just being honest..the excuses and
>>>pleas
>>>>>that are being copped for this guy are just beyond
>>amazing.
>>>>
>>>>Its not pleas, its keeping things in perspective.
>>>
>>>it's pleas man....people playing the race card with a cat
>>who
>>>10 years ago would have cursed you out for coming at him
>>with
>>>some Black stuff......and saying "everyone else does it" to
>>>justify or minimize the issue..
>>>
>>>those are pleas and excuses man...
>>>
>>
>>Its not necessarily the race card. Last time I checked,
>Barry
>>was on some OJ Simpson sh*t. lol!! Its not like we are
>talking
>>about MLB's version of Jim Brown here.
>
>exactly....not you, but others on this board have acted like
>Barry Bonds was Paul robeson or something....lol
>
>dude is conveniently Black....when he's in trouble ya know...
>
>>
>>>Barry Bonds
>>>>ain't the bad guy in all of this.
>>>
>>>yeah he is. But there are culpable elements...Major league
>>>Baseball..and the players union are culpable...but Barry
>>Bonds
>>>is responsible for what he did..as with any grown man.
>>>
>>
>>True.
>>
>>
>>>How can we say he's the stand up Black man getting attacked
>>by
>>>the White devils, and then say that he's so weak that he is
>>>not responsible for what he does....
>>>
>>
>>Who is saying he is a stand-up Black man. I don't think
>>anybody is.
>
>stick around this post..you'll see it....lol.
>
> He is man, who happens to be black, that speaks
>>his mind and is his own person. THAT is problem for a lot of
>>whites. Whether you are a pro-black panther type cat or a
>Theo
>>Huxtable type cat?
>
>aww Jam.....You hurt my heart brother.....What would make Theo
>huxtable the antithesis of being a pro-black panther??? The
>guys who started the Panthers were educated folks....being
>bright and carrying yourself with that type of dignity doesn't
>mean one can't be revolutionary pro-Black......
>

I got you. I look at Cosby being a revolutionary, pro-black. Even though his style is what people would think is the antithesis of that. I'm just talking on the surface and the presentation. Cuz, quiet as kept, the Panthers loved them some white women. lol!!!


>and remember Theo's character chose a career in educating
>young people, which is very much in line with the Black
>panther agenda no???
>

Yes, Warren. I know. lol!!


>I know that it's totally off topic, and I may be a bit touchy
>today, but since you're someone I respect on here I feel it
>cool to say that....A "Theo" type isn't going to face any less
>challenges from a White power structure than a kid from the
>streets..and in fact will probably face more......So they
>don't need us to divide them away from being "pro-Black"
>

I disagree. He will face challenges, but not as much. Its the presentation and image. A "Theo" type would have a better shot in the coporate-structure than say a "Jim Brown" type. Both are higly educated and intellectual, but the image is different. Unfortunately that is the way it is. Shouldn't be that way, but it is that way.

>can't have it both ways man.
>>>
>>> HE did what everybody else
>>>>did.
>>>
>>>and if my son came to me and used that as an excuse as to
>>why
>>>he got in trouble...he's going to get in extra trouble with
>>>me......
>>>
>>
>>I'm not lessoning what he did. But if you are going to
>attack
>>him in the same vile manner, lets go after everybody.
>
>How vile is it though Jam??? I don't see anything vile at all
>about how he's being treated.....the most famous player in a
>sport is being accused of something that is not only illegal,
>but also calls into question his accomplishments...
>
>are they supposed to NOT cover the story??
>

I'm not saying to NOT cover the story. They should be on it. Just like the situation with Gretzki and his wife. They were on it. BUT, the comments I hear and read from day-to-day being made by Bonds disturb me. Its over the line. Its in a vile manner. And I think this is the perfect avenue to channel whatever pent-up hatred people have and place it on Barry.

>are they dragging his late father, or his wife and kids
>through the mud??? are the going after his godfather Willie
>Mays as being Culpable???
>
>The only think close to it was them reporting what his
>mistress said under oath....had she just said they had an
>affair, they wouldn't have covered it...but she said he was on
>roids, so that made it news.
>
>
>>Everybody is fair game. Steriods, cheating was as much as
>part
>>of the game as chewing tabacco.
>
>Chewing tabacco is not illegal.
>

Yes, I hear you. Barry WAS wrong IF he did KNOWINGLY do that stuff. Nothing has been proven in a court of law.

>Let's be real. MLB knew it and
>>did nothing about it, which enabled the use and really
>>suggests they approved of it.
>
>and MLB is responsible for that...I agree.
>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>Everybody suspects, supporters and non-supporters of
>>>>Bonds,that he took *something* other than vitamins. But to
>>>>pile up on him disproportionately when other players have
>>>done
>>>>is what the root of the problem is.
>>>
>>>he's being piled upon...yet he was given a pass on
>>testifying
>>>in front of congress??? he's being piled upon yet he is
>>being
>>>accused of doing something that is illegal, and he's not
>>been
>>>arrested, indited or anything of the sort....
>>>
>>>he's being piled upon????
>>>
>>>no way...
>>>

The Congress he was given a pass. But I think there was a reason for that. And I think there is a lot more to this story that is being reported. A whole lot more! But I understand where you are coming from.


>>
>>Yes he is being piled upon. Everything that is coming out is
>>nothing new. Why should this be any shock.
>
>it's enough of a shock for people to continue to deny he's on
>roids, or to make excuses.
>
>and really the fact he hasn't come clean is another reason.
>
> Its just redundant
>>and reaks of an agenda.
>
>So you're saying that folks should just forget about it...or
>pretend that he hasn't used roids??? It's a big story, and
>it's a story that's gonna get covered.
>

No. Being covered is one thing. But that attitude of the media that is there is beyond just merely "seeking justice".

> Its the same thing over and over
>>again.
>
>actually it's DIFFERENT PEOPLE saying the same thing...and
>since there are folks who are still defending him....since
>he's still denying it.....and since he's on pace to set some
>pretty monumental records...it's still a story in progress.
>
>Its character assasination.
>
>no..it's a guy getting his card pulled, and getting exposed
>for a truth, he continues to lie about. That happens when you
>cheat..and when you do things that are illegal.
>

I don't think Bonds is being exposed. I think its kind of assumed that everybody knows what happened with him, even Bonds.

>
> The fact that he is black,
>>successful, and isn't a programmed robot adds fuel to the
>>fire, Warren. Come on, let's be real. You know this.
>
>
>But Black people being treated differently in society is a
>given. That's how it works. But that doesn't change the fact
>that the guy was on steroids. and that steroids are illegal.
>
>

No, it doesn't.


>>
>>>the fact that a guy who is a great player is under this
>>>suspistion....and hasn't been man enough to come clean on
>>what
>>>he's done...is a story...it's a big story, and it deserves
>>to
>>>be covered...and even in the coverage..he's getting a pass
>>at
>>>every turn.....Don't let his cry baby act fool you about he
>>>and his family being destroyed by the media...the
>>facts...the
>>>plain and simple facts show that to be pure and utter
>>>bullsh*t
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>Getting a pass? Warren, are you serious!? Now THAT is
>>bullsh*t. What newspaper do you read and what news channels
>do
>>you watch?
>
>They are covering a big story...that's what the media does.
>
> You would think Barry is Satan, from everything I
>>read and hear on then news.
>
>no..you would think he used steroids.
>
>Its way overboard. Sure, Barry
>>brought some of this on himself.
> But the media is trying to
>>destroy him when they know good and well that they have an
>>agenda that is bigger than seeking "justice" against Bonds
>>only for the simple fact that he ALLEGEDLY knew he took
>>steriods.
>
>By getting a pass...I meant that he, even though being the
>most recognized Baseball player in the world.....with the
>greatest level of suspision...was not called to testify as
>others were in front of congress...
>

Again, that was some behind the scenes stuff with Congress and MLB. That is why I said, there is a lot more to why he wasn't called.

>so explain that....how is he getting demonized like you're
>saying, yet wasn't seen as being needed to testify in front of
>congress????
>

But the only thing you are referring to is the Congress situation. He is already being tried in the media and by a grand jury. The preponderance of character assassination attempts against Barry is enourmous in the media. That is what I'm talking about.

I mean, at least debate against the right people.

Many fans of Bonds simply suggest the following::

a)If you want to talk about *asterisks* or "fake records" because of steroid use, then to be consistent, all records before Jackie Robinson(at LEAST) should be erased or asterisked. There isn't a sensible way to debate that records made when the league banned people from the league based on skin color are any more valid than records set with performing enhanching drugs. Don't try, because you'll look like an idiot. Trust me.


b)If you really want to look at players who benefitted from steroids, the best place to look is not to the players who were hall of famers BEFORE their power surge, but instead the AVERAGE players who improved drastically. Bonds was already the best player of his generation as of 1992 or 1993. Without roids, its likely that he still would have reached 500-500, when in addition with this glove work(one of the best defensive Left fielders ever), makes him one of the 3 best all around players to ever step on a field(arguable, but not by very much).

Again -- AS OF 1993.

c)When you consider point (B), the implications for Bonds' use of steroids are far, far, far, far, far, far less dramatic and impactful on his legend than Palmeiro, Canseco, Giambi, Sosa, Mcgwire and the dozens of others who haven't yet been caught. All of the latter, save Palmeiro(who was a good all-around hitter) made their money solely by the long ball, and the long ball alone. There are few gold gloves, and no seasons with 50 stolen bases amongst those other dudes(Canseco did have 40, of course).

d)Despite this, Bonds' bad relationship with the media(as brought up by B9) guarantees that the impact of Steroids on Bonds' career will be conflated with the impact of steroids on Mcgwire and Giambi's career, when they aren't comparable, at all.

3)(Warning, race dialogue to follow) Throw in the fact that he's a notoriously defiant black man, and you have the recipe for a witch hunt that is less about Steroids and more about a vendetta against Barry Bonds. Surely, all players who have exposed as using 'roids get blasted in the media, no doubt about it(perhaps deservedly so).

That said -- Might I make the humble point that one needn't be Farrakhan to suggest that race has **something** to do with his negative press? And that this coverage can be present even when Bonds *did* so something wrong?

I make this last point because the reflexive white argument is that none of Bonds' negative coverage has anything do with race at all -- its solely because he's accused of doing something very, very, bad. I've even had white people conjure Pete Rose to argue why Bonds' negative treatment isn't race-related. What they miss, like most yts, is that a situation doesn't have to be exclusively about race to be race-related.


But I digress.....I should have just waited for one of the white liberal okayplayers to make the exact same argument, in which case it would be automatically be more plausible.


But at least consider it, even with the fact that it came from a rabid nigger.


Lol.

that's what's most disappointing. Dude would've been a 1st ballot HOFer without the roids unless he had a serious injury like Griffey did.

Dude was that good and fools that don't know baseball will assume he was on whatever his entire career and discount his early career.

I find it hard to beleive that dude didn't use soemthing questionable but without the blood tests I didn't want to waste time debating it. That being said if they didn't enforce the rules on anyone, then that can't enforce it on him. But his legacy has been tarnished for a mintu enow so this is more of an "AHA!" than an "Oh my God he's a cheater!" reaction that folks had when McGwire was copping please in front of Congress.

Such is life.

prior to using them??? in fact where are the 50 HR seasons??

He didn't need them to be a great player...but he did need them to challenge the HR records...

and baseball needed them to infuse some life in a sport that had fallen to #3 overall in America....

I never said anything about him being a 70HR player. I stated even without the roids he would've been a first ballot HOFer.

He still would've hit for great average and drove in runs. And let's not forget the increased HR production wasn't solely rodis related. It had a lot to do with terrible pitching due to over expansion.


***
"That's why you never judge how you are going to play by how you warm up. Because out here tonight warming up I've never seen a player since the days of Larry Bird warm-up better, more efficiently, more productively than Finley"-The Great Bill Walton

>I never said anything about him being a 70HR player. I
>stated even without the roids he would've been a first ballot
>HOFer.

but the debate isn't just limited to him being a hall of famer......We're talking about some pretty prestigious records here...


>He still would've hit for great average and drove in runs.
>And let's not forget the increased HR production wasn't solely
>rodis related. It had a lot to do with terrible pitching due
>to over expansion.

but all of this is conjecture....the year before Kirby retired I could have said he was going to hit 500 Hrs in his career...but due to injury it didn't happen....folks said McGuirre was on pace to break Aaron's record...but due to injury, and not wanting to get caught up in the Roid thing coming out..he didn't...

we can't say what Barry's numbers would have been ..

nor can we say WHY his HR production went up...

but what we can do is look at baseball from 1964 to the present and say with certainty that if it was due to something natural.....or expansion's impact on pitching...the HR numbers would not have gone up so drasticlly so quick across the board....

>prior to using them??? in fact where are the 50 HR
>seasons??

where are hank aaron's 50 HR seasons you dumb ass nigga? barry's career high pre-roid is higher than hank's career high. not only do i know more about garvey than you, i also knew *that*....ya dumb bitch.

>He didn't need them to be a great player...but he did need
>them to challenge the HR records...

no he didn't. he could've challenged 61 easily. he was just entering his prime.

>and baseball needed them to infuse some life in a sport that
>had fallen to #3 overall in America....

shut your dumb ass up.

>>prior to using them??? in fact where are the 50 HR
>>seasons??
>
>where are hank aaron's 50 HR seasons you dumb ass nigga?
>barry's career high pre-roid is higher than hank's career
>high. not only do i know more about garvey than you, i also
>knew *that*....ya dumb bitch.

He's hit 755 home runs, and didn't need roids to do it...Barry had to turn into Lee Haney to do something Hank Aaron did out of his pure manhood.....

>
>>He didn't need them to be a great player...but he did need
>>them to challenge the HR records...
>
>no he didn't. he could've challenged 61 easily. he was just
>entering his prime.

right...because so many people from 1964 to 1998 challenged 61 right???

man miss me....the point was he need roids to get to 755....don't try and switch this up.

>
>>and baseball needed them to infuse some life in a sport that
>>had fallen to #3 overall in America....
>
>shut your dumb ass up.

Bas...you probably jerked off when you saw that Tom ass Barry Bonds dressed up in woman's clothing....miss me with all that.

Hank Aaron was a real Black hero who risked his life to break Ruth's record...and risked it because he didn't in a hostile climate...more hostile than reporters asking questions..none of that cry baby sh*t that Barry has to deal with...Hank literally risked his life..and that of his family to break that record..his daughter had secret service protection at college during the run to break Ruth's record......and Barry wants to cry about a witchunt??? man know something about being Black before you speak on it.....

Hank risked his life to break that record.....I guess Barry did too, being that there are health risks to using roids.

>>>prior to using them??? in fact where are the 50 HR
>>>seasons??
>>
>>where are hank aaron's 50 HR seasons you dumb ass nigga?
>>barry's career high pre-roid is higher than hank's career
>>high. not only do i know more about garvey than you, i also
>>knew *that*....ya dumb bitch.
>
>He's hit 755 home runs, and didn't need roids to do it...Barry
>had to turn into Lee Haney to do something Hank Aaron did out
>of his pure manhood.....

hank took speed...like all them old heads did.

>>>He didn't need them to be a great player...but he did need
>>>them to challenge the HR records...
>>
>>no he didn't. he could've challenged 61 easily. he was just
>>entering his prime.
>
>right...because so many people from 1964 to 1998 challenged
>61 right???

yeah, actually. white people were deathly afraid that it would be barry or belle to break the shit, too. belle was predicted by many to be the guy to do it, because he would get incredibly streaky. he hit 30+ HRs in 1995 from august to october. that scared people. scared 'em so much they didn't give him the MVP award that year.

>Bas...you probably jerked off when you saw that Tom ass Barry
>Bonds dressed up in woman's clothing....miss me with all
>that.

nope. i jerked off to sista 17 the other day though.


>Hank Aaron was a real Black hero who risked his life to break
>Ruth's record...and risked it because he didn't in a hostile
>climate...more hostile than reporters asking questions..none
>of that cry baby sh*t that Barry has to deal with...Hank
>literally risked his life..and that of his family to break
>that record..his daughter had secret service protection at
>college during the run to break Ruth's record......and Barry
>wants to cry about a witchunt??? man know something about
>being Black before you speak on it.....

do you understand that i don't fucking care? i don't care. barry breaking that record. i want him to.

willie mays is a proud black man, too. he's also the greatest player ever. well, he was before his godson took the crown. who's side will willie be standing on?

speaking of willie. you reminded me willie lynch was such a successful tool in keeping niggas divided the way you keep pitting hank against barry.


>Hank risked his life to break that record.....I guess Barry
>did too, being that there are health risks to using roids.

yeah, well, sometimes our sports heroes risk their lives doing dumb shit

and sometimes they risk their wives lives and their unborn children's lives. you mad?

>Barry
>had to turn into Lee Haney to do something Hank Aaron did out

that was funny...

>
>I mean, at least debate against the right people.
>
>Many fans of Bonds simply suggest the following::
>
>a)If you want to talk about *asterisks* or "fake records"
>because of steroid use, then to be consistent, all records
>before Jackie Robinson(at LEAST) should be erased or
>asterisked. There isn't a sensible way to debate that records
>made when the league banned people from the league based on
>skin color are any more valid than records set with performing
>enhanching drugs. Don't try, because you'll look like an
>idiot. Trust me.

absolutely. but this is a concept so shocking that literally, many whites can't even wrap their heads around it. the idea that segregationist stats should be asterisked is something that has to be explained in an approachable manner. But tirades directed at yt are only going to harden the anti-asterisk stance.

that being said, just because other things should be asterisked doesn't mean that bonds & mcguire shouldn't be as well.

>
>
>b)If you really want to look at players who benefitted from
>steroids, the best place to look is not to the players who
>were hall of famers BEFORE their power surge, but instead the
>AVERAGE players who improved drastically. Bonds was already
>the best player of his generation as of 1992 or 1993. Without
>roids, its likely that he still would have reached 500-500,
>when in addition with this glove work(one of the best
>defensive Left fielders ever), makes him one of the 3 best all
>around players to ever step on a field(arguable, but not by
>very much).
>
>Again -- AS OF 1993.
>
>c)When you consider point (B), the implications for Bonds' use
>of steroids are far, far, far, far, far, far less dramatic and
>impactful on his legend than Palmeiro, Canseco, Giambi, Sosa,
>Mcgwire and the dozens of others who haven't yet been caught.
>All of the latter, save Palmeiro(who was a good all-around
>hitter) made their money solely by the long ball, and the long
>ball alone. There are few gold gloves, and no seasons with 50
>stolen bases amongst those other dudes(Canseco did have 40, of
>course).

Bonds was probably my favorite player in the early 90's after anyone on the Orioles. From where I sit he basically had two parts to his career. the first part was with the Pirates (and a few years with the Giants) where he was one of the best all-around players in the league and of all time. he fielded, he ran, he hit for average, he hit for power, and he was a team leader on successful teams.

the second half of his career was no different from what Mcguire, Sosa and Giambi were doing. power hitting. steroids. not much else. Bonds is now a threat to break the all-time HR record and if he does, it will probably define his career. Knowledgeable baseball fans won't say 'oh he was a great all-around player', they'll say he's the greatest home run hitter of all time.

This is why I'm so hung up on his steroids. Not only would he have been an all-time great without steroids, but he completely changed his career arc and the type of player he was by juicing up and becoming in essense, a NL DH.



>
>d)Despite this, Bonds' bad relationship with the media(as
>brought up by B9) guarantees that the impact of Steroids on
>Bonds' career will be conflated with the impact of steroids on
>Mcgwire and Giambi's career, when they aren't comparable, at
>all.

I firmly believe the steroids will unfortunately define the type of player he is remembered as: a power hitter.


>
>3)(Warning, race dialogue to follow) Throw in the fact that
>he's a notoriously defiant black man, and you have the recipe
>for a witch hunt that is less about Steroids and more about a
>vendetta against Barry Bonds. Surely, all players who have
>exposed as using 'roids get blasted in the media, no doubt
>about it(perhaps deservedly so).
>
>That said -- Might I make the humble point that one needn't be
>Farrakhan to suggest that race has **something** to do with
>his negative press? And that this coverage can be present even
>when Bonds *did* so something wrong?

no question about it. agree 100%. many whites do too, but i understand that one of your schticks is railing against yt, so by all means continue

>no question about it. agree 100%. many whites do too, but i
>understand that one of your schticks is railing against yt, so
>by all means continue

See.

You agree with my point, which is no less vociferous than Bshelly's, yet you throw in the potshot that the good point I made resides, not in sound judegment, nor a fair analysis of the situation, but in that one of my "schticks is railing agaisnt yt."

That's what I'm talking about.

Shells made the same point. He's level-headed.

I make the point. I'm a race-baiter.

These boards are very, very, racist. It don't bother me, but it is cute how the white people on here fight with the caste football community, when the white people on here are not much better.

Different conversation tho.



----------------------------


O_E: Your Super-Ego's Favorite Poster.



"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "Cosmic Slop

>You agree with my point, which is no less vociferous than
>Bshelly's, yet you throw in the potshot that the good point I
>made resides, not in sound judegment, nor a fair analysis of
>the situation, but in that one of my "schticks is railing
>agaisnt yt."

if you want to talk about Bonds, that's what I posted about

>if you want to talk about Bonds, that's what I posted about

Yes, I know i'm right.


----------------------------


O_E: Your Super-Ego's Favorite Poster.



"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "Cosmic Slop

>
>I mean, at least debate against the right people.
>
>Many fans of Bonds simply suggest the following::
>
>a)If you want to talk about *asterisks* or "fake records"
>because of steroid use, then to be consistent, all records
>before Jackie Robinson(at LEAST) should be erased or
>asterisked. There isn't a sensible way to debate that records
>made when the league banned people from the league based on
>skin color are any more valid than records set with performing
>enhanching drugs. Don't try, because you'll look like an
>idiot. Trust me.

Although I already put an asterix next to records prior to baseball integration....When you're comparing individual accomplishments....it's different...we are comparing Hank Aaron w/o roids...to Barry Bonds w/ roids. Now that comparison can be made w/o making a judgement about the roids...but rather a specification the 2 records were acheived under different conditions...

I mean how much smaller would Babe Ruth's HR total be if he faced some Black pitchers?? maybe a bit smaller..but not like 100 smaller or anything......The only difference would be that there would have been other players who would have had somewhere close to or more HRs than he..ie. Josh Gibson. But as far is it meaning that his total # of HRs is tainted....I don't buy that at all.....

but with Bonds V. Aaron, that's a different story...

and what else is involved here is that Steroids are illegal in society NOW (where as when baseball discriminated against Blacks, doing so was NOT illegal at that time) so Barry and the others who used them...AND MLB and the players association are actually culpable in a crime. It's a crime to use steroids..posses them....and facilitate their usage....and that is just further evidence why Bonds HR total should be distinguished from Aaron's


>
>b)If you really want to look at players who benefitted from
>steroids, the best place to look is not to the players who
>were hall of famers BEFORE their power surge, but instead the
>AVERAGE players who improved drastically. Bonds was already
>the best player of his generation as of 1992 or 1993.

Ken Griffey Jr. would have something to say about him being the best player of his generation....

but regardless.....I think it's justifiable to look at a guy who so drasticlly increased his power numbers....and whose appearance demonstrates evidence of usuage in an environment where it was accepted.

AND...a guy who people are first hand saying that he was on them...including people such as Gary Sheffield who have nothing to gain by admitting it....



Without
>roids, its likely that he still would have reached 500-500,
>when in addition with this glove work(one of the best
>defensive Left fielders ever), makes him one of the 3 best all
>around players to ever step on a field(arguable, but not by
>very much).
>
>Again -- AS OF 1993.

I wouldn't deny he was a great player...but that conjecture isn't speaking to the potential for a shortened career...ie. the brother in my avy...or an Albert Belle....

and again...a POSSIBLE 500 is not the issue...it's the likely 755 that's the problem.

>
>c)When you consider point (B), the implications for Bonds' use
>of steroids are far, far, far, far, far, far less dramatic and
>impactful on his legend than Palmeiro, Canseco, Giambi, Sosa,
>Mcgwire and the dozens of others who haven't yet been caught.
>All of the latter, save Palmeiro(who was a good all-around
>hitter) made their money solely by the long ball, and the long
>ball alone. There are few gold gloves, and no seasons with 50
>stolen bases amongst those other dudes(Canseco did have 40, of
>course).

So because others who weren't as good as Bonds used them....folks should only focus on those guys, and pretend like Bonds didn't use them even though the evidence he did is monsterous???

>
>d)Despite this, Bonds' bad relationship with the media(as
>brought up by B9) guarantees that the impact of Steroids on
>Bonds' career will be conflated with the impact of steroids on
>Mcgwire and Giambi's career, when they aren't comparable, at
>all.

the impact on how his career will be viewed is great on him because (a) he's still playing (b) he's getting close to 755, (c) He's been less than honest about his use of them despite all the evidence

is he liked by the media,and some of his teammates??? no. but that doesn't erase the a,b,c I just mentioned.....

Eddie Murray had as salty a relationship with the media as anybody...yet his accomplishments warranted by first ballot..and he was.

>
>3)(Warning, race dialogue to follow) Throw in the fact that
>he's a notoriously defiant black man,

Let me cut you off right here. Barry Bonds is not a notoriously defiant Black man.....not at all and the false perception that he is only saw the light of day when he came under scrutiny for roids...

What Black issues has Barry Bonds supported???
What "risk" has he placed himself in to stand up for principals of a Black man??

A guy who sets himself apart from his teammates, has a different sized locker...different chair than the rest of his teammates...maybe considered defiant..but not in the since of being a defiant Black man...in the since of being a selfish, self-centered, cry baby...



and you have the recipe
>for a witch hunt that is less about Steroids and more about a
>vendetta against Barry Bonds. Surely, all players who have
>exposed as using 'roids get blasted in the media, no doubt
>about it(perhaps deservedly so).

when you act like an a-hole..you get treated like one..that's how life works.

and the bottom line is that this is no witch hunt.....Barry Bonds used steroids, and human growth hormones....others did it too...and baseball and the union are culpable...but he used them....

and steroids are illegal in society.

and Hank Aaron did not use them....

that's the bottom line.

>
>That said -- Might I make the humble point that one needn't be
>Farrakhan to suggest that race has **something** to do with
>his negative press?

Black people are generally treated different in America than Whites....That's a fact.

But Barry Bonds is an asshole....

he's used steroids and growth hormones...



And that this coverage can be present even
>when Bonds *did* so something wrong?

I must have missed the part of the Senate Hearings where Bonds testified, and where they asked him point blank if he was on them...Maybe I turned the channel or something...but from here, it looks like he's actually being PROTECTED against these accusations...

and another thing...when you are obviously lying...and the people you are lying to don't call you a liar.....aren't those people you're lying to cutting you some slack???

>
>I make this last point because the reflexive white argument is
>that none of Bonds' negative coverage has anything do with
>race at all -- its solely because he's accused of doing
>something very, very, bad.

He's accused of doing something illegal....and I think it's actually a reflexive Black argument to make the assumption that people do not believe that you can hold Bonds accountable to the truth, and admit that he has some image problems (self-created image problems.)

Playing the race card usually works better when it's being used with someone who actually wanted to be Black before their problems....ie. OJ and Barry would have probably cursed you out for associating them with a Black cause prior to their "problems" ...


I've even had white people conjure
>Pete Rose to argue why Bonds' negative treatment isn't
>race-related. What they miss, like most yts, is that a
>situation doesn't have to be exclusively about race to be
>race-related.

saying something is race related now is about like saying the sun will rise in the east tommorow.....

and none of that should impact the facts of this issue.


>But I digress.....I should have just waited for one of the
>white liberal okayplayers to make the exact same argument, in
>which case it would be automatically be more plausible.

>
>
>But at least consider it, even with the fact that it came from
>a rabid nigger.
>
>
>Lol.
>

honestly...we should make sure to defend those on the basis of race...who actually wanted to be included in our race before they had problems.

Serious knowledge there

Can't say I'm surprised there's been no response to this one. Too much truth.

>
>I mean, at least debate against the right people.
>
>Many fans of Bonds simply suggest the following::
>
>a)If you want to talk about *asterisks* or "fake records"
>because of steroid use, then to be consistent, all records
>before Jackie Robinson(at LEAST) should be erased or
>asterisked. There isn't a sensible way to debate that records
>made when the league banned people from the league based on
>skin color are any more valid than records set with performing
>enhanching drugs. Don't try, because you'll look like an
>idiot. Trust me.

They are both stupid and a gross overvalue of stats that lose meaning over eras for a variety of reasons, anyway (see Cy Young's pitching record against Warren Spahn's against what Roy Halladay's will be).

The point is that they are BOTH massive blemishes on the game and athletics in general. To say they are equal or unequal is a meaningless comparison because they are two very different issues, but they both undermine the quality and fairness of competition. I am not for asterisking any records, but we should recognize both as major problems that reflect poorly on the game entire and particularly so on certain individuals (the people who fought integration, the steroid users; they are more culpable than the merely complicit although they arent without blame).

>b)If you really want to look at players who benefitted from
>steroids, the best place to look is not to the players who
>were hall of famers BEFORE their power surge, but instead the
>AVERAGE players who improved drastically. Bonds was already
>the best player of his generation as of 1992 or 1993. Without
>roids, its likely that he still would have reached 500-500,
>when in addition with this glove work(one of the best
>defensive Left fielders ever), makes him one of the 3 best all
>around players to ever step on a field(arguable, but not by
>very much).
>
>Again -- AS OF 1993.

That is what makes his transgression even WORSE, he is not the student cheating his way from an F to a C, he is cheating from an A to an A+. If anyone embodies the manner in which a small advantage can make a tremendous difference at the pro level, it's Bonds, he already had tremendous conditioning, natural ability and intelligence and he STILL had to go out and get better to make sure he was getting the recognition as the best player. Not only was the guy a great player before the 'roids, he was also a prototype for the egotistical modern athlete (and I dont use that as a euphemism for black athletes, I do mean modern). Well, after he took them he became an even BETTER player and an even BIGGER jerk. Again, you are fighting the good fight but backing the wrong corner here.

>c)When you consider point (B), the implications for Bonds' use
>of steroids are far, far, far, far, far, far less dramatic and
>impactful on his legend than Palmeiro, Canseco, Giambi, Sosa,
>Mcgwire and the dozens of others who haven't yet been caught.
>All of the latter, save Palmeiro(who was a good all-around
>hitter) made their money solely by the long ball, and the long
>ball alone. There are few gold gloves, and no seasons with 50
>stolen bases amongst those other dudes(Canseco did have 40, of
>course).

This is why I am agaisnt asterisking records, we could spend an eternity going over who was using, when, how it impacted their numbers etc. You cannot honestly say all of those guys were juicing before they had their best seasons, most of them are older or roughly as old as Barry. And while you can say Barry would have massive totals without steroids, I dont think he would have been taking them for such an extended period if they were not benefitting him during a period where he put himself on the cusp of overtaking Aaron. Do you mean to tell me you are HONESTLY not the least bit hesitant about being pleased if/when that happens? I think it was a triump for Aaron to break that record BECAUSE of the separatism of the Ruth era, now we are going to allow another one of baseball's history great blunders push Aaron aside?

>d)Despite this, Bonds' bad relationship with the media(as
>brought up by B9) guarantees that the impact of Steroids on
>Bonds' career will be conflated with the impact of steroids on
>Mcgwire and Giambi's career, when they aren't comparable, at
>all.

What is more unique: going to the Hall of Fame or breaking the all-time home run record? McGwire SHOULD be mentioned exactly the same way Bonds is, someone who was already talented but cheated to extend their career and break records (BTW McGwire won a gold glove at 1B, cheesy but just pointing it out). Unless you are trying to sell me on him juicing in 1987, I think he is in the same boat as Bonds. Giambi may be a different story, but again, why are we in an Olympics of cheating here?

Bonds and the press are like Al Capone and Elliot Ness; they have been trying to bust his ass for years. On one hand, I wish they would turn their attention to a more worthy subject, on the other hand, if it took them this long to prove something this obvious, maybe they should keep their sights low.

>3)(Warning, race dialogue to follow) Throw in the fact that
>he's a notoriously defiant black man, and you have the recipe
>for a witch hunt that is less about Steroids and more about a
>vendetta against Barry Bonds. Surely, all players who have
>exposed as using 'roids get blasted in the media, no doubt
>about it(perhaps deservedly so).

See above statement about Bonds and the press and "defiance" is a word that gets thrown around blanketedly as something to admire. Defiance for its own sake and complicity for one's own benefit are most of what I see in society today and that is what anyone can see from Bonds, too. Barry is out for Barry and to protect himself, obviously.

>That said -- Might I make the humble point that one needn't be
>Farrakhan to suggest that race has **something** to do with
>his negative press? And that this coverage can be present even
>when Bonds *did* so something wrong?
>
>I make this last point because the reflexive white argument is
>that none of Bonds' negative coverage has anything do with
>race at all -- its solely because he's accused of doing
>something very, very, bad. I've even had white people conjure
>Pete Rose to argue why Bonds' negative treatment isn't
>race-related. What they miss, like most yts, is that a
>situation doesn't have to be exclusively about race to be
>race-related.

I am surprised anyone would bring up Pete Rose, it astounds me the number of people who ACTIVELY stick up for him, particularly (but not exclusively) white folks. I dont doubt that there are some people involved who have been more pissed at Bonds' attitude because he is black, in fact I think that has pretty successfully swung public opinion against him. The tolerance for arrogance from black athletes is generally a lot lower, there is little doubt about that IMO.

But that isnt what has swung most of the press or a lot of people in baseball against him or even a lot of people in that same public against him. There are many very legitimate reasons to dislike Barry Bonds and more to the point to be very critical of what he is doing to the game.

I think the same is true of McGwire, maybe he did not aleinate as many people (race being one component of a handful there), but he should definitely be frowned upon for cheating his way into history (if only briefly). But again, really anyone who took their place in history through the use of a consistent unfair advantage should be looked at unfavorably.

>But I digress.....I should have just waited for one of the
>white liberal okayplayers to make the exact same argument, in
>which case it would be automatically be more plausible.
>
>
>But at least consider it, even with the fact that it came from
>a rabid nigger.
>
>
>Lol.


You're black?

on steroids.

drasticlly increase if stereoids were legal...

In MLB...they WERE legal....so thus the fact that natural muscle mass occurs in general w/o steroids is minimized when the population you're looking at are operating in an environment where steroids are legal....

Barry Bonds appearance...a long with McGuirre, Sosa, Giambi, Juan Gone, and numerous others...their appearance is actually but one of the multiple pieces of evidence that they are on roids..

another would be the fact that they were "legal" in baseball would be another piece of evidence...

yet another would be the "accomplishments" ..... between 1964 and 2000 there were but a hand full of 50 home run seasons...actually even before 2000, guys started putting up sick sick numbers.....numbers that were not even close to anything seen in the past. Now if natural increase in muscle is the explanation for a Bonds...then what is the explanation for the drastic increas in HRs across the board.......and even more important...where are the other examples, either in sports, or in life in general that will tell me that such a drastic "accomplishment" based increase is related to anything "natural"..... Where are the 25 rebound a game guys in the NFL....Where are the dead bodies of Football players that are being hit by guys who are now NATURALLY 3 times strong than Dick Butkus or Deacon JOnes....

where are the street fights occuring where people's heads are being decappitated by 1 punch by guys who are now NATURALLY able surpass the strength of men in previous decades....


Bonds was on Roids....and was on Human growth hormones...in fact he still may be on human growth hormones since there is no way to test for those right now....

"look, he's bigger so he must be on steroids". anyone that is into weightlifting knows that its possible to gain significant muscular bodyweight over a period of time without steroids.

>"look, he's bigger so he must be on steroids".

but you know, for me I was convinced when his personal trainer pled guilty to steroid charges.

>"look, he's bigger so he must be on steroids". anyone that is
>into weightlifting knows that its possible to gain significant
>muscular bodyweight over a period of time without steroids.

but it's not just about "he looks bigger" ...that's just one piece of it....

regardless of his dodger colors.....cats are being so blind and have been so blind to this its ridiculous.

bonds used steroids, obviously. we all know this with 96 percent certainty.

we also know that a lot of other white players used steroids without tis much unwanted publicity being heaped on them.

we know bonds will never get the jason giambi forgiveness treatment because he's black.

we know the Federal investigation was designed to go after one man and to provide enough other white names to make it look unbiased.

we know that worrying about the integrity of the game in an era where owners start the world series at 9pm eastern to maximize revenues is laughable.

and we know the last person who deserves an ounce of sympathy is a miserable, conceited, arrogant, hostile prick who is Joey Belle Part II.

so i refuse to fucking care. spring training is on, the wbc is on, and the phils need a fourth and fifth starter. watch the games and leave the soap opera for the morons.

... at least not until he starts hitting bombs against Minnesota. Then I'd probably be a pretty big asshole about it.

That said, I drove back to Minnesota andlast June to catch a possible Santana/Bonds matchup live. Instead, Bonds was injured for like six months and I caught one of the few Twins wins during an astonishingly bad stretch of play that pretty much doomed the season even before the unanimous decision in August by the offense that "hitting" was overrated.

I'm just waiting for the A's season to start so we can hopefully win the World Series.

you like baseball enough to not care about steroids. That's your prerogative and I respect that. Most of the rest of Bonds apologists are playing games of semantics, race cards and technicalities in order to convince themselves Bonds didn't do anything at all.

Personally, I stopped liking baseball years ago. I think steroids are ugly and it makes me respect the game of baseball that much less because it doesn't even pretend to care if its players abuse performance enhancing drugs. I'm not likely to go back to enjoying a sport where a guy like Barry Bonds has replaced Hank Aaron atop the most hallowed record category in baseball history.

Steroids are bad for all sports, and they're rampant in everything from the NFL to the Olympics. But I think baseball is on a level by itself. And because I stopped liking baseball so long ago (for many reasons), Barry & others' drug use is just icing on the cake.

I'm not likely to
>go back to enjoying a sport where a guy like Barry Bonds has
>replaced Hank Aaron atop the most hallowed record category in
>baseball history.


Yep. That's what gets me.


---
Refusing to Let Go:
OkayBlowhards Champ 2004

---
Real Man Talk:
http://www.imageyenation.com/main

The reason he didn't receive the "Jason Giambi treatment" (which Giambi didn't actually receive from anybody with a brain) was because he basically did everything in his power to refute it. Fuck you for sticking up for this piece of shit.

John Flaherty retired. I have to decide between Bard and Huckaby now. While the Jeter dislocation helps, I think I'm leaning Bard.

---
Refusing to Let Go:
OkayBlowhards Champ 2004

---
Real Man Talk:
http://www.imageyenation.com/main

I would have labelled a "race baiting plea copper" instantly.

You guys are all fucking racist as hell.

It isn't more correct because a white boy says it.

Fucking dicks.

Oh, and good post Shells.



>bonds used steroids, obviously. we all know this with 96
>percent certainty.
>
>we also know that a lot of other white players used steroids
>without tis much unwanted publicity being heaped on them.
>
>we know bonds will never get the jason giambi forgiveness
>treatment because he's black.
>
>we know the Federal investigation was designed to go after one
>man and to provide enough other white names to make it look
>unbiased.
>
>we know that worrying about the integrity of the game in an
>era where owners start the world series at 9pm eastern to
>maximize revenues is laughable.
>
>and we know the last person who deserves an ounce of sympathy
>is a miserable, conceited, arrogant, hostile prick who is Joey
>Belle Part II.
>
>so i refuse to fucking care. spring training is on, the wbc
>is on, and the phils need a fourth and fifth starter. watch
>the games and leave the soap opera for the morons.


----------------------------


O_E: Your Super-Ego's Favorite Poster.



"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "Cosmic Slop

...people take Shel more seriously than they do you.

definitely.

stupid racism, always ruining OE's great posts.

>
.

Everybody knows you're a moron. But we'd expect more sound judgement coming from Bryan.

palmeiro lied to congress and snitched. mcgwire broke one of baseball's most hallowed records, was credited with saving the sport, and then took the Fifth before Congress. Giambi is a former MVP and possible HOF candidate who plays for the famous team in the sport in the world's most venemous press.

all of them have reasons to be killed on a level comprable to bonds, or just a little less. but this witch hunt has been about bonds since day one in every steroid piece written, and it's going to get 10 times worse now. why? in no order, because bonds is a dick and reporters want to see him go down, and because bonds is a black man with nerve to be a dick who fucked up a string of white records, and America wants to see him go down.

i'm not rooting for him, but i'm not rooting against him either.

And the reason it was about him is because he basically BEGGED for it all to be. When the world got wind of McGuire juicing, he ran for the hills and hid. When they got hip to Sosa, he showed up in Washington pretending not to know how to speak English. Giambi called a press conference and gave a non-denial denial. The others at least TRIED to put up some kind of a front. Barry all but DARED the media to prove him guilty, which wasn't that fucking hard to do. Please don't try to give even the slightest hint of this being some kind of injustice. He deserves every bit of this, and I'm enjoying every minute of it.

>palmeiro lied to congress and snitched. mcgwire broke one of
>baseball's most hallowed records, was credited with saving the
>sport, and then took the Fifth before Congress. Giambi is a
>former MVP and possible HOF candidate who plays for the famous
>team in the sport in the world's most venemous press.
>
>all of them have reasons to be killed on a level comprable to
>bonds, or just a little less. but this witch hunt has been
>about bonds since day one in every steroid piece written, and
>it's going to get 10 times worse now. why? in no order,
>because bonds is a dick and reporters want to see him go down,
>and because bonds is a black man with nerve to be a dick who
>fucked up a string of white records, and America wants to see
>him go down.

the fact that there is a book solely about Bonds while no one has gone to this length to implicate McGwire, and Palmeiro (after he snitched) automatically validates this

None of the other known steroid users have compiled the piles of antagonistic soundbites that Bonds has. Barry Bonds has gone out of his way to make the media and the American public hate his guts and now he's gotten his wish.

>Everybody knows you're a moron. But we'd expect more sound
>judgement coming from Bryan.

"Moron" = black.

If I had made the exact same point, I would have instantly been labelled a "race baiting plea copper."

He's white, he gets taken seriously. It goes on all the time on these boards.

I had that figured out years ago.

>>Everybody knows you're a moron. But we'd expect more sound
>>judgement coming from Bryan.
>
>"Moron" = black.

No, moron = moron. Race = irrelevance.

>If I had made the exact same point, I would have instantly
>been labelled a "race baiting plea copper."

Because you have a history of basing everything you argue race related.

>He's white,

And so are you.

>he gets taken seriously. It goes on all the time
>on these boards.

No, he has a Master's. You have a realistic chance of castrating yourself if you were to operate an electric can opener while naked. THAT'S why he gets taken seriously and you don't.

>I had that figured out years ago.

And years from now, you might actually figure out the truth about Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, the tooth fairy and God.

that is, of course, if said high school girl was a race-baiting plea-copper

True story.

That is, of course, why I post at all.


>that is, of course, if said high school girl was a
>race-baiting plea-copper

I don't get it. Bshelly is the high school girl?

He's certainly the race-baiter in this thread, far in excess of O_E.

And even better -- just think about what caste football says about posters like you.


Lol.


----------------------------


O_E: Your Super-Ego's Favorite Poster.



"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "Cosmic Slop

>He's certainly the race-baiter in this thread, far in excess
>of O_E.

"You guys are all fucking racist as hell" - O_E

*hands you a tissue*

After all, Shells made multiple posts charging the sports media of racism in their handling of Barry Bonds. He's made the point over and over, ardently.

I made a single post, where only a fraction of my larger point had to do with race(race was, on the other hand, the meat of Bshelly's original post).

Eventually, I called a bunch of wiggers "racist" in the handling of this double standard.

Still, the stakes of his race-baiting are far larger than mine.

Because he's white, however, its accepted around here.

I ain't mad, I just want to point it out so you think twice the next time you want to sound enlightened in your discussions about caste football.

Don't throw rocks from a glass house, Diablo.


Lol.


----------------------------


O_E: Your Super-Ego's Favorite Poster.



"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "Cosmic Slop

I mean, yeah yeah, I'm a white devil and everything. Hell is hot. Post something worth responding to - you know, something with actual substance instead of empty race-baiting plea-coppery.

PS - Skin color notwithstanding, there is one thing I share with some castefootballers that you don't.

We actually watch the games.





















































Lol.

>I mean, yeah yeah, I'm a white devil and everything.

I actually got "diablo" from you. You named your Varsity league team the "diablos" before we switched out of the ESPN league.

So you actually race-baited against yourself.


*Smack*


>Hell is
>hot. Post something worth responding to - you know, something
>with actual substance instead of empty race-baiting
>plea-coppery.

You mean, like call you a white devil?

Or should I race-bait like Bshelly is doing up and down this thread?

How about that?

>PS - Skin color notwithstanding, there is one thing I share
>with some castefootballers that you don't.
>We actually watch the games.

ZING!

The castefootball solidarity movement begins.

2 small corrections:

a)Castefootball folks actually do not watch the games.

b)The similarities between you and castefootball are, however, plenty.

L

i like haagen daas and talking about my feelings.

n/m

>i like haagen daas and talking about my feelings.


----------------------------


O_E: Your Super-Ego's Favorite Poster.



"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "Cosmic Slop

I told you so.


The ones who said I, and his other critics, was only chastising him because he was black...

Because he was unapologetic....

Who said I didn't go after McGuire or Sosa as fervently (I did, but that's a different story)....

The ones who said my argument was baseless and I was chasing a ghost...

I told you so. Kiss my ass, I told you so all along.

Barry Bonds is ahead of his time. That's all. He is the future of sports. Babe Ruth didn't have steroids, but he didn't have gatorade either. What's the difference? Athletes will continue to progress. Forget steroids. Eventually, they will all be genetically enhanced, and whiny fans will complain that Barry Bonds didn't have genetic enhancements. After that, athletes will be half-cyborg, half-man. After that, athletes will be complete robots. You all are so near-sighted, it makes me sick. Stop hating and appreciate Barry for what he is: The best drugged athlete of our times!! He is a martyr and will be remembered as such. Long live Barry.

His multi-year Bonds Watch may actually lead to him have a special on the Deuce with an Outside the Lines Tie-in.

is pedro attched to bond in someway or what? that is probably the weirdest media to athlete combo since ali - cosell.

***
"That's why you never judge how you are going to play by how you warm up. Because out here tonight warming up I've never seen a player since the days of Larry Bird warm-up better, more efficiently, more productively than Finley"-The Great Bill Walton

seriously, this type of cheating is no different than what those old crackers in the 20's were doing.

and there is soooo much misinformation out there about what steriods do and dont do, that the entire conversation is just laughable.

I still don't believe dude used steroids. This is a setup to discredit dude and have him not break Ruth's record. I take it for what is complete Bullshit. Like said earlier by another poster if dudes had this evidence earlier how come they didn't expose it???

GTFOHWTBS and bring me something tangible.

>bring me something tangible.

I have millions of dollars in a Nigerian bank account. Because of political strife, I can't retrieve these millions. If you give me your bank accoutant information, I can have these millions transfered to your accountant and we will split the millions. Please help. Thank you my friend.

in nor-cal, no less. first thing my editor asked when this broke was "Why didn't the two writers break this in the Chronicle?"

if these guys were investigating this while they were on staff, they should have reported it at the time. if it's all true, then they should have wanted to break the story right away. instead, they wait until they can capitalize on the story when Bonds is about to come back to the game.

they've been sitting on this for a year at least, in my opinion. they were waiting to nail Bonds, coldblooded.

that is the thing I think stinks the most.

>that is the thing I think stinks the most.

to fully understand how shiesty the reporter are acting by waiting to publish a book to reveal all of this. At a newspaper it's your job to report the news when you find it, not sit on it and wait so you can cash out on a potential book-deal.

Reporters cream themselves over a story like this, if for no other reason than they can parlay into a big time job or even, yes, a book deal. But most of them wouldn't sit on the real "proof" of the story just to cash out later.

Again, I'm not saying what they wrote isn't true, but these guys aren't exactly Woodward and Bernstein.

>Again, I'm not saying what they wrote isn't true, but these
>guys aren't exactly Woodward and Bernstein.
>

'Cause Bob Woodward does this shit all the time. He regularly holds things back from his editors at the Post so he can drop big scoops in his books and get more hype.

And I'm pretty sure it happens a lot more than that as well.

And that still doesn't change the fact that it's still slimy.

>And that still doesn't change the fact that it's still
>slimy.

That's true.

Just saying, though.

THAT'S why they couldn't break it in the Chronicle. They had to have some EXTENSIVE work done to make sure that they could have their asses covered once they broke this news. And the capitalist pig in me can't blame them for feeling that "hell, if we're going this far to put this out, we might as well take one more step in the process and make some real money off it" and turn it into a full blown book project. Besides, I'm pretty sure the Giants have people inside at the Chronicle that might stop that kind of shit from getting to the public (kind of like Dan McGrath makes sure nothing bad about Dusty Baker can be read off of Tribune pages).

they were supposed to have finished the book last fall and released it then; they actually thought by then he would have passed Ruth at the very least since they didnt anticipate him missing the 2005 season.

they are still accountable to libel and slander laws here and most of the book's content comes from court documents and recordings.

Zzzzzzzzzzzzz...

still the sweetest swing in baseball

Actually, you could make the case that John Olerud had a better looking swing.

Now, this is all aesthetics, what I'm saying. Barry's swing and his drugs have definitely been the most effective.

I think it's hystercal that he said he was seeing the ball better on the drugs though.

-------------------
RIP Puck
There'll never be anyone else quite like Kirby Puckett.

but it also has a lot more holes.

I hear sweet swing, I think of the effortless way Griff and Olerud did it.

The pre swing bat-waving and fury make Bonds' not quite as pretty in that sense. Also, choking up always makes the thing look clunkier. I choked up too, adn it was right for me, but it never looks quite right.

(But like I said, my argument is purely aesthetic. Barry's natural ability combined with his cheating made for a wickedly effective swing.)

-------------------
RIP Puck
There'll never be anyone else quite like Kirby Puckett.

but with that smoothness come some pitches that are a lot less easy to drive. bonds' compact swing makes for a lot less holes.

No wasted movement, hands and arms stay close to body, just brutal and efficient. Thing of beauty. Griffey's got that longer, looping swing, which is pretty, but yeah--Bonds' is about as hole-free a swing as I'll ever see.

HOWEVER, Will Clark had sweet swing too, back in his prime. Just effortless--kind of like Olerud, but with more pop.

version of what i was trying to say.

Also, the people that wrote it were SF Chronicle writers, if it was credible, it would have been published in the newspaper that they write for, instead it ended up in a tell all book. gtfohwtbs.

Everyone in SF knows he did that shit, no one is dumb enough to think he didn't, but someone in the fbi and media hates this motherfucker a little too much.

especially big LOL at winstrol being a "powerful" steroid. and at people taking only a week off for their body to start remanufacturing its own testosterone.

nm

post 55

of this thread. Both seemed to make coherent, non-emotional points throughout.

LD seemed a little too fired up about it and the 'told you so' angle rings hollow when 95% of the people with any sense have long since acknowledged that Barry had taken steroids.

BShelly seemed to write quite a bit for someone who 'doesn't care' about the subject.

O_E made it all about himself as usual.

And some of the other arguments I've seen in here (it wasn't illegal, how come Barry is getting singled out, etc) are tiresome.

Barry Bonds is the biggest player in baseball. He is on the verge of breaking the All-Time Home Run Record. Barry Bonds is without question a steroid user, which also without question taints the inflated numbers of the latter part of his career.

Because of that he'll end up discredited to some degree like McGwire, Sosa, Palmeiro, and Giambi have been before him. It's a shame, because we all know Barry was a better player than any of those guys by miles and really wouldn't have needed the roids to earn a plaque in Cooperstown. I can't really be bothered to feel bad for him. I'm not outraged either, this is what you get with this era of baseball......but crying and plea-copping on his behalf is a waste of time as well.

the Racist Media coming out to bash on Bonds what else is new? has He tested negative for a drug test yet? nope. they say 5 years,well He dominated in 04&he has always been watched. dude is a Great Player period. no matter what.this is so tacky because these so called journalist didn't even go to the san francisco journal no they ran to SI to profit off the Man again. so this shit don't mean nothing to me. Barry Bonds is still the Greatest Player Ever. Ask Willie Mays about the Greatness of Barry Bonds&those in the know already know that Bonds is the truth. Willie Mays already said that he told Barry to put numbers up long ago.He knows how great Barry is.

>the Racist Media coming out to bash on Bonds what else is
>new? has He tested negative for a drug test yet? nope. they
>say 5 years,well He dominated in 04&he has always been
>watched. dude is a Great Player period. no matter what.this is
>so tacky because these so called journalist didn't even go to
>the san francisco journal no they ran to SI to profit off the
>Man again. so this shit don't mean nothing to me. Barry Bonds
>is still the Greatest Player Ever. Ask Willie Mays about the
>Greatness of Barry Bonds&those in the know already know that
>Bonds is the truth. Willie Mays already said that he told
>Barry to put numbers up long ago.He knows how great Barry is.

>>the Racist Media coming out to bash on Bonds what else is
>>new? has He tested negative for a drug test yet? nope. they
>>say 5 years,well He dominated in 04&he has always been
>>watched. dude is a Great Player period. no matter what.this
>is
>>so tacky because these so called journalist didn't even go
>to
>>the san francisco journal no they ran to SI to profit off
>the
>>Man again. so this shit don't mean nothing to me. Barry
>Bonds
>>is still the Greatest Player Ever. Ask Willie Mays about the
>>Greatness of Barry Bonds&those in the know already know that
>>Bonds is the truth. Willie Mays already said that he told
>>Barry to put numbers up long ago.He knows how great Barry
>is.
>
meaning does he want barry to pee on him?

Greatest each in there respective fields.

there is overwhelming evidence to suggest bonds used steroids

the sources of this evidence are shaky

bonds had a mistress

he gained a lot of muscle mass in the late 90s

his father played baseball

there's a lot of racism...
in the world
on okayplayer
on okayplayer sports
which is why no one takes 100% of things OE says, even if they concede/agree to some things

racism is bad
really bad
really really bad
especially against OE on okayplayer sports

barry bonds is black and he takes heat for being black

he's an asshole but since he's black he's made to be more of an asshole than he really is

but he's not an asshole he just speaks his own mind as a black man

he's probably going to break hank aaron's record

if he's healthy he will break babe ruth's record

and his entrance into the hall of fame will be tenuous because of the latter half of his career tainted by the steroids controversy


gee, how fucking informative this was. i don't think i even need to read the book now.

>there is overwhelming evidence to suggest bonds used
>steroids
>
>the sources of this evidence are shaky
>
>bonds had a mistress
>
>he gained a lot of muscle mass in the late 90s
>
>his father played baseball
>
>there's a lot of racism...
>in the world
>on okayplayer
>on okayplayer sports
>which is why no one takes 100% of things OE says, even if they
>concede/agree to some things
>
>racism is bad
>really bad
>really really bad
>especially against OE on okayplayer sports
>
>barry bonds is black and he takes heat for being black
>
>he's an asshole but since he's black he's made to be more of
>an asshole than he really is
>
>but he's not an asshole he just speaks his own mind as a black
>man
>
>he's probably going to break hank aaron's record
>
>if he's healthy he will break babe ruth's record
>
>and his entrance into the hall of fame will be tenuous because
>of the latter half of his career tainted by the steroids
>controversy
>
>
>gee, how fucking informative this was. i don't think i even
>need to read the book now.
>

>racism is bad
>really bad
>really really bad

A) his family is made up of baseball LEGENDS. he was a shoe in for the HOF before 98 but he wouldnt have been mentioned with the GREATS like reggie jackson and willie mays (his kinfolk)...

B) however, SAMMY SOSA AND MARK MGWIRE were!!! barry bonds couldn't have that.

C) a few years back when jose conseco critisized him, barry bonds response was "where are YOUR records!?" just like that...cmon man, a 40 year old man talking like that!? if that didn't convince you i don't know what would...

- and people kill me trying to interject RACE in2 this, this has NOTHING to do with race. and the people who are saying that just sorta skim over a few baseball highlights on sportscenter but don't know WTF is going on...also, rickey henderson was playing well in2 his 40's and looked like a beast, and he SUCKED!! that may sound backwards, but i think that hurts him too, you can look like a powerhouse and still play like a simp (kevin willis?) but to put up those numbers!? those muscles are something extra man...

like I heard Colin Cowherd say this morning, these are the crack rock of steroids... this dude was on some sh't!!!

>Bonds was using... trenbolone, a steroid created to improve the muscle >quality of cattle... In addition to the Cream and the Clear, the
>steroids designed to be undetectable, Bonds took such drugs as
>Clomid, a women's infertility drug thought to help a steroid
>user recover his natural testosterone production, and
>Modafinil, a narcolepsy drug used as a powerful stimulant.

thats all standard issue stuff right there.

i hate the media.

anyone can buy trenbolone or clomid online like its nothing. and modafinil is a very weak stimulant that often gets prescribed as a "mood enhancer" or a light antidepressant.

the media should be focusing on HGH.

When it comes to George W Bush, is talking about a book full of speculation like it's a smoking gun when it comes to a basball player

what bullshit

http://insider.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?entryID=2359210&name=gammons_peter

Bonds embodies best, worst of eraposted: Wednesday, March 8, 2006

In Orlando, Phoenix and San Juan, baseball has begun its celebration of the diversity of baseball cultures called the World Baseball Classic. In spring training camps, there are an unprecedented number of teams that have the right to dream of playing in October. In Albert Pujols, Miguel Cabrera, Grady Sizemore, Johan Santana, Roy Oswalt, et al, there is a new generation of superstars, while the faces of the game have turned from Mark McGwire, Barry Bonds and Sammy Sosa to Derek Jeter, David Ortiz and Pujols, faces that represent the best and the brightest.

It is almost as if everyone outside San Francisco is waiting for The Bonds Show to be over. There is no question that the latest revelations in the new book by Mark Fainaru-Wada and Lance Williams could be devastating to any chance that Bonds had to pass Babe Ruth and exit with dignity. This is not a kiss-and-tell book. Fainaru-Wada and Williams earned the reputation of the Woodward and Bernstein of this generation (Mark and his brother, Steve Fainaru, are two of the best journalists of the last 20 years). And while the Jose Canseco book had a great deal that deserved our attention -- despite its mistakes and self-absorption -- Bonds faces a mountain of evidence, not to mention potential grand jury problems.


At the ESPN event at Disney World March 3-5, we did four "Baseball Tonight" shows, three in a studio and one before an outdoor stage audience. Each time, when we got to the Bonds subject, Karl Ravech asked the audience, "As Barry Bonds approaches Babe Ruth, will you be cheering for him?"



Every time, there was an overwhelming crescendo of boos.



It will be years before the Steroid Era will be put in its historical perspective. Bonds, McGwire, Sosa and Rafael Palmeiro will have to endure intense scrutiny about their Hall of Fame legitimacy, as we learn how large a percentage of players used performance-enhancing drugs. Likely, we will learn that the percentage was far greater than so many of us thought. The revelation might lead many to accept these players as Hall of Famers because they were the best players during a period in which steroids were a major part of the baseball culture, just as Canseco and Ken Caminiti told us.



If Fainaru-Wada and Williams are right about the Bonds steroid timeline, this is a sad way for Bonds' career to end. Before 1998, he was already a Hall of Famer, one of the 20 best players of all time. He had three MVPs and should have had a fourth. He was the best modern-day defensive left fielder. His workout habits were legendary back in 1993 after he won his third MVP award.



Admittedly, the enhancers were not illegal in the baseball workplace and were a part of the workplace's culture, but for such an intelligent, talented man to make the alleged decision that he had to have more because McGwire and Sosa had it is the sort of greed that led to the demise of Richard Nixon and former Enron CEO Ken Lay, and Americans have little pity for a fall based on greed.



In many ways, baseball fans have already put Bonds in their rearview mirror. Bud Selig stays awake at night hoping that if Bonds does catch Ruth, he will do it in San Francisco or face the black eye of having one of sports' great achievements greeted with a shower of boos. If he passes Aaron, rest assured, the greatest record in sports will no longer be the career home run champion.



Oh, sure, there are going to be players who get the best in designer drugs to beat the testing system -- which isn't foolproof, by any stretch -- but baseball has endured the steroids scandal and moved on from the era that so many of its administrators allowed to mushroom.



Whether he's ever found guilty by anyone but the court of public opinion, Bonds, the best player of his era, now stands as the monument to the worst of the era. Selig has to pray that if Bonds hits home runs No. 715 and 716, he does it in San Francisco against the Rockies in a 10:05 p.m. ET start with three rain delays.

And as far as 75-90 percent of fans are concerned, knowing he may retire at the end of the season, every time a Bonds story comes on "SportsCenter," it might as well be accompanied by Green Day's "Wake Me Up When September Ends."



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• Alfonso Soriano insists he will not move to the outfield when the WBC is over. The Nationals are counting on his eventually relenting because he has no choice -- he is virtually untradable, and he won't sit on the bench in his free-agent walk year.


"They never even talked to me; they just made the trade and announced I am moving," says Soriano. "Am I embarrassed? Yes. They tried to corner me. Now when I come back, how can I learn to play the position in a week or 10 days? I've played four games in my life in left field. How am I going to do at a position I haven't played?"


• David Ortiz on the difference between the Caribbean Series and the WBC: "There's not any comparison. In the Caribbean Series, the winning team from each country's winter ball picks up some more players, and you play for your country, but this is much bigger, much more important. This is the world, with the U.S., Japan, everyone. For the Dominicans to win this with the U.S. in it would be the biggest thing for Dominican baseball."


Watching Ortiz, Miguel Tejada, Albert Pujols, et al interact led to the observation that the Dominican team is closer than most regular-season teams. "It is," says Ortiz. "We are all close friends. We grew up together, we hang out together in the winter. This is as close a group as you will ever find."


• Excuse me for being repetitious, but Manny Acta should be managing in the major leagues.


• Curiously, Victor Martinez might be the best catcher in the major leagues right now, but he is DH-ing and batting seventh for Venezuela, with Ramon Hernandez catching and hitting in the five-hole. "I don't mind; I'm just happy to play," says Martinez, who has grown into a leader on the Indians. And, by the way, he led all major-league catchers in average, on-base and slugging percentage, and RBI last season.


• What awes so many of the young players on the Dominican team is how seriously Pujols takes every swing in BP. "There is no time to fool around when you practice," says Pujols. "Every swing has a purpose, and I try to never get away from that. It's hard enough hitting a 95-mile-an-hour fastball. So habits are important."


Jim Leyland was in spring training for four years with Pujols. "He has the best work ethic I have ever been around," says Leyland. "I've never seen a player more dedicated or serious."


• The buzz on the Dominican team has been about young Twins lefty Francisco Liriano. "He hit 98 the other day," says Acta. "He may be special right away. Imagine having him and Santana on the same staff."

barry shouldn't have let the attention mac and sosa received influence him? who was it giving mac and sosa the attention, pete, despite having suspcions?

if this stuff turns out to be true

nm

That's what he gets for being a punk ass nigga.

Them white women he so loved, came back and bit his black ass.

mUHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA

using ..or over -using roids like Bonds has.....Raphy's out is that he can say he didn't know what he was taking was steroids...so to the best of his knowledge..when he said he had never used them...he believed that to be true..

if Barry was doing what he was accused of doing....he can't really say he didn't know they were roids..

Perjury to a grand jury is a federal crime...

I have a feeling they won't go after him for that..because despite what people like you are saying...MLB and even the legal system will cut Barry some slack because if he goes down..it brings down baseball....this is not something MLB can disconnect themselves from on the responsibility side....

and America ..the legal system, and it's politicians will cut baseball slack because it's part of promoting a certain type of American Culture to have baseball be big.....in fact that desire is what led to all of this in the first place.

> using ..or over -using roids like Bonds has.....Raphy's out
>is that he can say he didn't know what he was taking was
>steroids...so to the best of his knowledge..when he said he
>had never used them...he believed that to be true..

barry never tested positive...like some people

>if Barry was doing what he was accused of doing....he can't
>really say he didn't know they were roids..

yes, he can. until they have ironclad proof, this is all junk.

>Perjury to a grand jury is a federal crime...

tell me about it

>I have a feeling they won't go after him for that..because
>despite what people like you are saying...MLB and even the
>legal system will cut Barry some slack because if he goes
>down..it brings down baseball....this is not something MLB can
>disconnect themselves from on the responsibility side....
>
>and America ..the legal system, and it's politicians will cut
>baseball slack because it's part of promoting a certain type
>of American Culture to have baseball be big.....in fact that
>desire is what led to all of this in the first place.

if they could catch him, they would. you know why they can't go after barry? domino effect. mcgwire falls, canseco falls...world series are called into question...it would be a big mess.

barry black

> using ..or over -using roids like Bonds has.....Raphy's out
>is that he can say he didn't know what he was taking was
>steroids...so to the best of his knowledge..when he said he
>had never used them...he believed that to be true..

his "out" is the fact that he tested positive *after* he testified...which means he could have been telling the truth at the time and then taken steroids later

theres this little thing called guilty til proven innocent in this country still or so i thought

'thought this was america, ppl' - s. carter

early nominee for Best Post Of The Year imo

kudos all around


you think YOU got hulled f'ing w/ 12dp?: http://64.255.174.200/board/showthread.php?t=89082

Mzungu Aende Ulaya — Mwafrika Apate Uhuru

<---bitch get your mind right

>theres this little thing called guilty til proven innocent in
>this country still or so i thought
>
>'thought this was america, ppl' - s. carter
>
>early nominee for Best Post Of The Year imo
>
>kudos all around
>
>
>you think YOU got hulled f'ing w/ 12dp?:
>http://64.255.174.200/board/showthread.php?t=89082
>
>Mzungu Aende Ulaya — Mwafrika Apate Uhuru
>
><---bitch get your mind right

because of the BALCO case.

As far as I'm concerned Barry is as clean as everybody else was and is.

>As far as I'm concerned Barry is as clean as everybody else
>was and is.


cause the rest of the homerun hitters are dirtier than a NYC subway

>>As far as I'm concerned Barry is as clean as everybody else
>>was and is.
>
>
>cause the rest of the homerun hitters are dirtier than a NYC
>subway

a bipartite insult to history