Ok I see I need to have a little come to Jesus talk with some folks around here.

Let's start off with a little history lesson...

Let's go for a ride OKS. Come with good ol' Uncle Truth as we take a trip down to West Monroe, Louisiana. There in 1934 Charles and Katie Russell had a son and named him William Felton Russell. The younger Russell, who would later be known as Bill, grew up to become a great basketball player winning 11 NBA championships and a was awarded a Presidential Medal of Freedom, the only NBA player to ever receive that award.

A couple of years later in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, William Chamberlain and Olivia Ruth Johnson had a son and named him Wilton Norman Chamberlain. "Wilt", as he was called, grew up to become an outstanding basketball player as well and set statistical records that had never been achieved before and haven't been matched since.

However, as great as Chamberlain was individually, he only won 2 NBA titles in 5 trips to the Finals and Russell was considered to be the better winner and better player by most accounts. #RingsMatter

Then there would be another great player to come along by the name of Julius Winfield Erving II from Long Island, New York. His high-flying, slam-dunking style would take the game to a new level. Additionally Erving was also an oustanding defender, rebounder, passer and ballhandler at the forward position.

Erving went to the NBA Finals 4 times in 7 years but only won title. In 4 of those seasons in the Eastern Conference Finals Erving faced the Boston Celtics led by Larry Joe Bird from French Lick, Indiana and they split those series 2-2. During that same time-frame Bird went on to win 3 championships and is almost universally considered to be the superior player even though for anyone that actually watched them play it was nowhere near that clear cut. #RingsMatter

Once Bird got past Erving in the Eastern conference he had another nemesis usually waiting for him, a fella named Ervin Johnson Jr. from Lansing, Michigan. They called him Magic. Bird and Magic played each other in the Finals 3 times in 4 years and Magic's Lakers won 2 of the 3. Overall Magic won 5 titles in 9 trips to the Finals and despite Larry Bird's greatness winning league MVP for 3 consecutive seasons(the last player to do so) Larry only won 3 titles in 5 Finals appearances so in the NBA hierarchy most people have Magic ranked higher. #RingsMatter
(sidenote: I've never heard anyone discount Magic or Larry's titles when they didn't win Finals MVP)

And then He came. To James Jordan Sr. and his wife Deloris and child was born in Brroklyn, New York. They named him Michael Jeffrey Jordan and wrapped him in swaddling clothes and laid him in a manger. Michael would grow up to be a great basketball player as well. Michael's dominance in the NBA was evident from day one but some said while he was a great individual player he would never win a title. Jordan would eventually silence those critics and win 6 titles in six trips to the Finals and be considered as the Greatest of All-Time. #RingsMatter

And I could go on...

Why is Olajuwon considered head and shoulders over contemporaries like Robinson and Ewing? #RingsMatter

Why is Duncan universally considered the greatest power forward of all time over people like 2nd all-time leading scorer Karl Malone and Charles Barkley? #RingsMatter

Why is Isiah Thomas considered better than all-time assists and steals leader John Stockton? #RingsMatter

Why is 2-time league MVP Steve Nash considered inferior to those two who never won MVP? #RingsMatter

Now we have our current hero. On December 30, 1984 in Akron, Ohio a 16-year-old Gloria Marie James gave birth to a bouncing baby boy and named him Lebron Raymone James.

"King James" as he is know IS the greatest basketball player in the world RIGHT TODAY(c)wc.

But that's not good enough for some people. They want to push him higher. They want to elevate him and push him past certain folks. Some event want to put him on the same level as the GOAT himself, Michael Jeffery Jordan.

They want to totally dismiss that other guy. You know who. Joe and Pam's son Kobe Bean Bryant.

He came in and snatched 3 rings almost right out the gate. But that didn't count. He was a "sidekick". He just rode Shaq's coattails. It's not like he wasn't out there at 21 years-old averaging 21ppg and leading the team in assists and steals en route to the Lakers first title in over a decade. It wasn't like they didn't run it back the next year with Kobe scoring the same about of points as Shaq and still leading the team in assists sweeping the first 3 rounds of the playoffs with Kobe dropping ALL of his nuts in the Spurs mouths culminating with them dominated the Sixers who had the league's best record. I mean that was Shaq chasing MVP Allen Iverson around on the perimeter and forcing him to shoot only 40%. Its not like they didn't 3-peat, the only team to do so since Jordan's Bulls. Something no other "great teams" have been able to accomplish in recent times like San Antonio or Miami.

But then Shaq left, folks said Kobe would never win another title. But he sneaked back in and snatched two more rings out of the cookie jar and all of a sudden motherfuckers got scared. They wanted to change the rules. All of sudden #Rings don't matter as much.

Now they wanna hype "finals appearances", it doesn't matter if you won or not as long as you participated, lol.

Is that where we really are now?

The reality is Lebron SHOULD BE going for at least his sixth title now.

He should have won at least one in Cleveland before. That 08-09 team good enough to win 66 regular season games, sweep the Pistons and the Hawks in the first 2 rounds, but couldn't get past an Orlando team lead by Dwight Howard and Hedo Turkoglu? How silly does that even sound? lol. Was that Cleveland team THAT much worse than the guys Lebron is playing with now?

And then he took his talents to South Beach. What did he say? "Not 2, not 3, not 4, not 5, not 6, not 7". That first year after and few early struggles but then they got on a roll. They finished the season strong and rolled through the first 3 rounds of the playoffs dropping only one game in each series.

Then it happened. I know Lebron fans like to Cuban B(c) the shit but the 2011 NBA Finals actually happened. Yes, it did. Your boy nutted up in a major and almost inexplicable way. I don't know if he was really that intimidated by Shawn Marion and DeShawn Stevenson or if Gloria was in big to the mob for gambling debts and he was forced to throw the series to save her life but he had probably one of the worst and most bizarre performances by a star player in NBA Finals history that no one can really explain to this day.

The next year he finally got over the hump. It took Wade breaking Rondo's arm in the conference finals and they were able to dominate a super young OKC team but Lebron FINALLY got that first ring.

He got another the next year. The Pacers stretched Miami to the max and they were basically a lucky bounce from losing to the Spurs in the finals but in the end it doesn't matter and Lebron is a two-time champion.

The next season they rolled through the first 3 rounds but the Spurs had their number and wiped the floor with them pretty easily.

Then all of a sudden Lebron didn't have enough "help" again and ran back to Cleveland.

Now he's back in the Finals again for the 5th straight year and people are trumpeting that like its a significant accomplishment even though he only has 2 titles to show for including his 2007 finals appearance giving him 6 overall.

But if he can manage to beat Steph and the Warriors in the finals he'll be halfway to basketball immortality. Jordan won 3 of his titles after age 30.

Lebron can do it too but lets not anoint him just yet, let him EARN his place in history like everybody else did. Don't discount it, don't grade him on a curve. He can still do this. The NBA is wide open right now. Durant and OKC was supposed to be "next" team but its not looking like that now. The Warriors are looking strong but its going to take a salary cap genius to keep that team together. Lebron and the Cavs look like they could easily run off a few titles the way they are playing right now.

But for now let's officially dead the #BronCurve and cease the blaspheming of the one true GOAT MJ and let the "King" EARN his crown.

THE DOORS OF THE CHURCH ARE OPEN!!

I got two questions though. I was born in 1988, didn't become an avid basketball fan until 97ish, so maybe an older, wiser gentleman can answer them.

First... why has it taken all this time, up until LeBron James came into the league, for players to have 4 teammates on the court at the same time? I Keep hearing all about how LeBron needed Wade to win his first title, how he needed Ray to win the second, how he needed help to keep getting to Finals after Finals. I'm assuming he's the first person to play with teammates? Why did nobody ever think of this before? Perhaps Jordan could have won 10+ if he had help, perhaps a guy who could shoot the three or someone who could rebound.

And second... why is 2nd place considered worse than 3rd-30th for LeBron but not for anybody else? Perhaps LeBron would be better off if he only went to the Finals the two years he won and then failed to reach them all the other years? Perhaps he'd be better off not making the playoffs at all. Like lets say the best player on his team, lets say a guy who helped him win consecutive titles and won the Finals MVP all those years, lets say he leaves. It must be better for his legacy to miss the playoffs the following year and not make it out of the first round the next two, right? Again, that's a completely hypothetical situation, because that would never happen to someone who is in consideration for Top 5 all time, we know that for sure.

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand SCENE

The Bron fanboys have surpassed the Kobe fanboys.

Jordan fanboys pissed me off but 6 rings have to be respected. Only 7 rings in the modern era will make Jordan take a back seat(w/ Finals MVPs to match).

Bron already easily top 5 and when it's all said & done - he'll be top 2, period.

Don't matter if he has 3 rings or 5 - it's inevitable.

Be upset.

-->

and genuinely fed him the ball to his desire.

There's not a superstar in NBA history that wouldn't win at least two titles playing with the best players from their draft class. Jordan would have 12 rings playing with the best players from his draft class plus Pippen.

and 2 rings.

why?

else did.

In this microwave, internet society nobody wants to wait for shit.

with an inside track on top 5 or 3 if he wins more rings.

1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Russell
4. Bird
5. Magic
6. Wilt
7. Lebron


8. Oscar
9. Duncan
10 Shaq

tho I have the same exact players in my top 10, just a different order: its MJ, Wilt, Cap, Russell, Magic, Bron, Bird, Oscar Ducan & Shaq for me.

Kobe is at #15 behind Dream, Moses, Baylor & Doc

>1. Jordan
>2. Kareem
>3. Russell
>4. Bird
>5. Magic
>6. Wilt
>7. Lebron
>
>
>8. Oscar
>9. Duncan
>10 Shaq
>
>
>

better than him?

wipe everybody slate clean.

Based on sheer talent & upside alone, name one player on my list Kobe gets drafted over in an expansion draft. I'll wait

Bill Walton? Sam Bowie? Greg Oden? Ralph Sampson? Len Bias? Dajaun Wagner?

c'mon?!

nice diversion tho

today?

Russell play center at 6-10, 215 and barely shoot 40% against 6'7" white dudes, lol

And can you imagine Larry Bird defending wing players today? I couldn't

I ask which era

but yeah, same guys in that 11-15.

exactly where I'm at

passed MJ for #1 all-time +30 +5 and +5 games in the offs

passed Karl Malone on all-time off scoring list (6th I think?)

first player EVER not on the 60s BOS teams to reach 5 straight finals

^^^ this year.

Bron doing historic things is the reason folks are trying to place him in a historical context

he's earned the comparison.

you're telling me the great Bill Russell was a fraud and a sidekick and an overhyped Ben Wallace that rode the coattails of his multiple HOF teammates as the to those 11 titles.

If you tell me rings don't matter you have to tell me how Wilt isn't the clear undisputed GOAT.

If you tell me rings don't matter you have to tell me why Oscar Robinson, the only dude to EVER average a triple double for a season doesn't get more love.

If you tell me rings don't matter then you're telling me the only reason people say Bird is better than Doc is because Bird was white.

If you tell me rings don't matter then you have to explain to me how the #2 scorer in NBA history isn't in anybody's top 10.

If you tell me rings don't matter you have to explain to me why Duncan is held in much higher regard than Garnett despite very similar stats and individual awards.

So what are you all telling me?

of course rings matter

and Bron has rings

it's just NOT the end all be all.

this is all viewed through a post MJ perspective

nobody tried to plea cop Magic's greatness

because he lost in the finals

or Bird's

or Dr J's

etc...

and i'm not arguing Bron's position here, just saying you always have to look at things in context. otherwise there's no reason to have anyone behind Russell.

Cats want to beat their chest over Internet W's and comparisons..it is what it is. There's so much selective attention and disingenuous banter on every side that it's all pretty much nonsense regardless.

That being said, it's pretty clear Lebron is approaching rarefied air. Along with TD, he's the best overall player and leader that I've seen in my adult years.

IDK fam

a whole lotta 'experts' were highly critical of this young man

outside of these boards

there's plenty of Ls to go around.

I find it all pretty nonsensical lol

He just disguised it with 9786208297496392 words.

He should've just said "rings matter" and more people would've agreed, myself included. Instead, he included foolishness like "Lebron SHOULD have six rings by now!", a surefire signifier that it's one of those classic posts that decries the insanity of agenda flag-planting while also hammering agenda flags endlessly into the soil.

>He just disguised it with 9786208297496392 words.
>
>He should've just said "rings matter" and more people would've
>agreed, myself included. Instead, he included foolishness like
>"Lebron SHOULD have six rings by now!", a surefire signifier
>that it's one of those classic posts that decries the insanity
>of agenda flag-planting while also hammering agenda flags
>endlessly into the soil.

He should have more than two if he's the new messiah that folks proclaim him to be.

Cats on here say that shit in a totally different context than what I'm used to

if someone went crazy and put up 45 like Harden did and put the team on his back, then he nutted up

Horford nutted up on Didgeridoova for the dirty shit.

etc.

etc.

a dissertation in hopes of rallying the rest of the flummoxed contingent lol

Ya'll better hope he doesn't pull this off

>

If Lebron wins six, or even seven...."yeah, but it took him ten tries in the Finals."

Or, "he only won those last two because he was able to team up with Westbrook/Durant/John Wall" or whoever the next Superstar ends up being that he teams up with.

Hell, he can win 10-12, breaking Russell's record, and some folks will argue..."but he didn't face the same competition as Russell, the NBA is much softer now!" "He won them ALL on the East, so he had less competition, and the West teams were always tired by the time he got there!"

Basically, the great thing about Sports debates is that NOTHING can easily quantify who's the best. There's always someone ready to make an argument against whatever case you submit, regardless how stupid it sounds.

i aint reading that dissertation but i did catch a sentence about most people thinking russell was better than wilt. seems like unsubstantiated conjecture regarding one of the most polarizing, heated and complex debates in sports history. i really don't care about the rest of this shit. your boy(s) lost. deal with it. bron better than kobe and he's coming for shaq in an instant.

>your boy(s)
>lost. deal with it.

And my boy WON. 5 times.

#RingsMatter

If not then #RingsArentEverything

Let's also not ignore that LeBron is 30 and Kobe is dead.

Niggas grading Lebron on that grade inflation

----------------------------



O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

I didn't read any of it, but I'm sure others did and gained valuable insight about your relationship with LeBron James from it.

Clearly these feelings are important to you, and I am thrilled that you expressed them.

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

>I didn't read any of it, but I'm sure others did and gained
>valuable insight about your relationship with LeBron James
>from it.


I mean really, credit to him for summing up his point in the subject line very well. He just didn't realize it.

>>I didn't read any of it, but I'm sure others did and gained
>>valuable insight about your relationship with LeBron James
>>from it.
>
>
>I mean really, credit to him for summing up his point in the
>subject line very well. He just didn't realize it.

...folks who have no room for nuance and sports radio.....

It's one thing to say that player A) is not in the class of Magic, Bird, Russell, Cap and MJ because he never won a championship. I agree with that....

It's quite another to start a ring pissing contest.....

Jordan has less rings than Russell and yet people universally pick him over Mr. Bill....And that's because of context.....

It's all about context. Who were you playing with during your Chip run? What odds did you have to beat? Were you an important part of the team? Were u dominant during your Chip runs?

So even as a Bulls fan who has no use for the Cavs I begrudgingly can say that I view James better than Bird and Magic...

Context...Nuance....

Now as a crazy ass sports fan this back and forth is fun as shit...

But in the real world.....

>So even as a Bulls fan who has no use for the Cavs I
>begrudgingly can say that I view James better than Bird and
>Magic...

Why?

>
>>So even as a Bulls fan who has no use for the Cavs I
>>begrudgingly can say that I view James better than Bird and
>>Magic...
>
>Why?


Better all around game.....Immensely better on D and just a small level below Magic as a passer...

Remember when Magic took a team with Worthy hurt on the bench, Cap retired and Vlade in the middle to the Finals to meet the Bulls?

James did that 3 times in his career....

>>
>>>So even as a Bulls fan who has no use for the Cavs I
>>>begrudgingly can say that I view James better than Bird and
>>>Magic...
>>
>>Why?
>
>
>Better all around game.....Immensely better on D and just a
>small level below Magic as a passer...

"small"? I guess he's also a "small" level below Bird as a shooter too, lol

>
>Remember when Magic took a team with Worthy hurt on the bench,
>Cap retired and Vlade in the middle to the Finals to meet the
>Bulls?
>
>James did that 3 times in his career....

>>>
>>>>So even as a Bulls fan who has no use for the Cavs I
>>>>begrudgingly can say that I view James better than Bird
>and
>>>>Magic...
>>>
>>>Why?
>>
>>
>>Better all around game.....Immensely better on D and just a
>>small level below Magic as a passer...
>
>"small"? I guess he's also a "small" level below Bird as a
>shooter too, lol

Magic is the better passer....But not by as much as u think....I've seen about enough of Mr. Jughead's passing skills against my Bulls alone to come to the realization that dude is a passing savant....

did Lebron average double figures in assists?

there's always a curve, that's not even debatable. what's debatable is how far the curve bends and for whom.

>there's always a curve, that's not even debatable. what's
>debatable is how far the curve bends and for whom.



Basically......

If there was a real Mt. Rushmore are you telling me there's someone other than Magic/Bird (because of what they did for the game in the modern era) who is more deserving to be on it than Mr. Russell?!?!?

>If there was a real Mt. Rushmore are you telling me there's
>someone other than Magic/Bird (because of what they did for
>the game in the modern era) who is more deserving to be on it
>than Mr. Russell?!?!?

Jorn? Wilt? Oscar? West? Elgin?

to Russell when it comes to team accomplishments/individual accolades/overall importance to the history of the game is Magic/Bird only because of what they meant to the game besides what they did on the court...

Russell is the 1st and only coach/player to win a chip
In many ways he's almost (not quite tho) as important to the game as Jackie Robinson was to Baseball

And lastly, let me say it again: HE IS THE MOST ACCOMPLISHED ATHLETE IN TEAM SPORT HISTORY

West/Elgin/Oscar's legacies combined don't come close to Mr. Russell's legacy...

I could agree on Jordan but it's really abt a push


>>If there was a real Mt. Rushmore are you telling me there's
>>someone other than Magic/Bird (because of what they did for
>>the game in the modern era) who is more deserving to be on
>it
>>than Mr. Russell?!?!?
>
>Jorn? Wilt? Oscar? West? Elgin?

Top 10 not including active players:

Wilt
Russ
Cap
Jorn
Bird
Magic
Oscar
Doc
Dream
Shaq

Baylor, Moses and West seem very deserving of spots, I could see moving them in somewhere there.

>Top 10 not including active players:
>
>Wilt
>Russ
>Cap
>Jorn
>Bird
>Magic
>Oscar
>Doc
>Dream
>Shaq

Nice cop out, if Timmy retires tomorrow who are you kicking out?

I would say Hakeem is my No. 10 right now. In terms of one season, he might be one of the five best to ever do it, but over the course of a career he's already borderline. Toss up between him and Moses Malone as it is.

childhood idol...but I can't make a case for Doc being ahead of Timmay...

In NO particular order...

-Russell
-Wilt
-Oscar
-Kareem
-Magic
-Bird
-Jordan
-Duncan
-Bron
-Shaq (Tied w/Hakeem)


>>Top 10 not including active players:
>>
>>Wilt
>>Russ
>>Cap
>>Jorn
>>Bird
>>Magic
>>Oscar
>>Doc
>>Dream
>>Shaq
>
>Nice cop out, if Timmy retires tomorrow who are you kicking
>out?

But I have to say that where I once championed the fuck out of Tim, I am starting to feel like I gotta go the other way and pump the brakes a little. And where before him, Shaq, LeBron and I guess Kobe if you're one of the people that had him the top 10 was easier to have. You had room for like Jerry West and Moses, both of whom I guess could be argued still. Moses did have a better career overall than Hakeem and I could hear an argument for him being better. Jerry West was hoops royalty. Elgin Baylor, too.

It makes me feel good in a way though because the game and its history have grown. I mean talking top ten baseball or football or hockey players has been more contentious for many years.

You can argue we have to wait for Bron to accomplish more before we put him in the top 5 or whatever, but you can't argue there's no curve. Otherwise why do the majority of us have Jordan (among others) above Russell? Oh, because there's more to the argument than just rings? Well that's the point people are making who put Bron in the top 5 already. I'm not there yet, but you can't just say "he's gotta get to 6" and not realize the irony in that.

>You can argue we have to wait for Bron to accomplish more
>before we put him in the top 5 or whatever, but you can't
>argue there's no curve. Otherwise why do the majority of us
>have Jordan (among others) above Russell? Oh, because there's
>more to the argument than just rings? Well that's the point
>people are making who put Bron in the top 5 already. I'm not
>there yet, but you can't just say "he's gotta get to 6" and
>not realize the irony in that.
>

http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/facebook/000/533/710/7ac.jpg
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
<---- 5....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dlgiritpmfo

=======================================

Which also attracts attention away from the Tim>>>>Kobe argument

In a vacuum it's already Jordan/Bron best all time as far as basketball players go.


The last bastion of hope for Kobe fans as they cling to his nuthairs is that the number of rings are absolute. That they matter above all.

They don't. Context does.

Lebron was better coming out of high school, better in his prime, and will be better in his twilight years regardless of how many rings he has or doesn't have.

That's why Horry is not cracking anybody's top 50 even though he has 7 rings.

side because people keep switching.

rings is because of Kobe. It's arguably the biggest L in sports history. Mafuckas were so certain he would never win without Shaq. 2009 was the biggest mad making year ever and cemented one of the biggest Ls in barbershops all over the nation. Then he had the nerve to comeback the next year and repeat. Ngaz ain't been the same sense. They been foaming at the mouf for the past 6 years.. lol. All logic flew out the window.. Now the same mafuckas saying Kobe won't win 6 are talking about Bron being the greatest eva with 2.. lol

I give up... lol... All I know is Kobe will retire with a hand full of sparklers and boy are they mad about it... lol

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
<---- 5....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dlgiritpmfo

=======================================

They want rings to count more because that would put him closer to #1 Jordan.

But it doesn't and it makes them so mad that LeBron is better than Kobe with fewer rings.

So thus, perpetuate the #ringsmattertome

It's a good argument though. Boils it all down to a simple number. That's easier for most of these knuckle dragging Kobe stans to comprehend.

It was a response to a lot of angry people trying to qualify rings and down-play them after they had talked a whole lot of shit about Kobe never being able to win one on his own, let alone two.. Rather than just tip their cap, the bitter loser mentality came out and subsequent rationalization such as "sidekick rings" and "non finals MVP" rings. The natural response from the Kobe side was to focus on the rings.

was Kobe haters.. 6 years of foaming at the mouf - lol
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
<---- 5....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dlgiritpmfo

=======================================

case for Russell as the GOAT, ppl have made a special category for him and said he was the "greatest winner" in team sports because (I think) his dominance wasn't contingent upon his ability to score is which is why I feel like he doesn't get the proper credit he so deserves...he dominated in a very unsexy manner, by defending...and it was because of his ability think to control the game from a defensive standpoint is how he revolutionized the game...something that should also weigh in his favor if we're talking GOAT...

He's got the same amount of MVPs as Jordan and he almost doubles him in rings yet he ain't in some you alls top 5?!?!?!?!?!? And none of you mofos saw him play...at all

And how can anyone use the "ring argument" in regards to Bird when he only won 3 chips - plenty of (great) players got 3





>side because people keep switching.

It ain't that much of a stretch for me to believe that 1 team could be dominant in an 8 team league for a decade.

Throw the 3-peat Lakers in an 8 team league for a decade, Shaq and Kob have 10 rings too.

lebron is great -- top 5 ever -- but you have to earn GoAT.

lemme repeat that: YOU HAVE TO EARN GOAT

if he's as good as his biggest backers claim he is, he'll have
no problem eventually winning the chips to justify the status
that people are so pressed to preordain upon him.

are you that worried that he won't do it, that you feel the need
to set up all these failsafes and contingencies and even-ifs?

cats are already laying out "even if he loses to the warriors"
escape hatches. th'fuck part of the game is that?

i've never seen elgin baylor, jerry west, wilt, karl malone,
elway, peyton manning etc get 'credit' for finals losses, when
ppl discuss their legacies they generally list those in the minus column.

just have some balls and some confidence in your guy. and say
"yeah, he needs to get to 5 or 6 or whatever to be in the GoAT
convo, AND I'M SURE HE WILL"

because all this other shit is just scared pussy talk imo.

bottom line: if dude finishes his career 2-for-6 in the finals,
no one is going to consider him the consensus greatest basketball
player of all time, regardless of what else he accomplishes.

that's not how this works, never has. rings do matter.

A lot of things have to break in Lebron's favor to win 6 (or more) titles...

Mainly like him and teammates staying healthy and quality of competition

Lebron could ball out in the postseason as we've seen him do during his first stint w/the Cavs and still not win the title...

This ring argument is fairly new because there was a time when ppl said that Oscar Robertson or Jerry West was the GOAT despite their lack of titles (Dr.J said he's got them both in his all-time backcourt "bar none")



>lebron is great -- top 5 ever -- but you have to earn GoAT.
>
>lemme repeat that: YOU HAVE TO EARN GOAT
>
>if he's as good as his biggest backers claim he is, he'll have
>
>no problem eventually winning the chips to justify the status
>
>that people are so pressed to preordain upon him.
>
>are you that worried that he won't do it, that you feel the
>need
>to set up all these failsafes and contingencies and even-ifs?
>
>cats are already laying out "even if he loses to the warriors"
>
>escape hatches. th'fuck part of the game is that?
>
>i've never seen elgin baylor, jerry west, wilt, karl malone,
>elway, peyton manning etc get 'credit' for finals losses, when
>
>ppl discuss their legacies they generally list those in the
>minus column.
>
>just have some balls and some confidence in your guy. and say
>
>"yeah, he needs to get to 5 or 6 or whatever to be in the GoAT
>
>convo, AND I'M SURE HE WILL"
>
>because all this other shit is just scared pussy talk imo.
>
>bottom line: if dude finishes his career 2-for-6 in the
>finals,
>no one is going to consider him the consensus greatest
>basketball
>player of all time, regardless of what else he accomplishes.
>
>that's not how this works, never has. rings do matter.

http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/87/878d2a6c2441a7e6da37db1b5ad5eab27beac9579dd6867cb4fb2d2415ff98ce.jpg

contradicted yourself on this topic at damn near every turn lol


>http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/87/878d2a6c2441a7e6da37db1b5ad5eab27beac9579dd6867cb4fb2d2415ff98ce.jpg

http://board.okayplayer.com/okp.php?az=show_topic&forum=8&topic_id=2450011&mesg_id=2450011&page=

Literally NO ONE has him as the GOAT. Most people have him Top 5, which is a fairly consensus opinion... but plenty don't even have him there.

This is a post without a home. Or a post aimed exclusively at Vex or something. If someone can point me to someone sane saying that Bron is presently better than Jordan, cool. Because the only people who float the idea out there are saying he will be in the future and are staking the precise claims you mention in your reply.

Besides, Truth is full of shit here, because he thinks Bill Russell is overrated because of rings. So which POV does Truth actually hold? Whichever POV makes for the timeliest post, I suppose.

too people are suggesting that he's already second to only Jordan, some are bold enough to suggest that he's somehow Jordan's equal or has surpassed because he's been to 5 straight Finals.

Please point them out so we can laugh at them. Doing a quick search all I saw was his teammates saying, which doesn't mean shit

Also bomb says bron is better than Jordan was, and basa has concocted a formula by which if bron gets 3 more MVPs and 2 more rings he will surpass MJ as GOAT.

never said Bron IS the GOAT

we are playing a game of hypotheticals

projecting the rest of his career

based on what he's already accomplished at 30 Y.O.

YES, he has a chance* at GOAT

but needs to continue on an upward trajectory for at least a handful of years

AND add some hardware

you ain't gotta lie (c)

*I think you missed the point of my efficiency statement

weird, because you linked to it another post

maybe you should read it again.

>YES, he has a chance* at GOAT
>
>but needs to continue on an upward trajectory for at least a
>handful of years
>
>AND add some hardware

"Rings may not be his legacy"

Liar.

couple of days without you smearing my name

c'mon fam, you better than that (I hope)

what I said, and follow me here, I'm going to type it out

read slowly, I'm tired of re-explaining it

EFFICIENCY will be his legacy

if you PROJECT his career

he has A CHANCE at being

#1 in points, all-time
top 10 in assists, all-time
and top 20 in rebounds, all-time

add those up, and it equates to the most efficient player of all time.

in the era of analytics and stat geeks

that will be their case for Bron and GOAT (+ all the hardware, you are aware he's won about every award possible at this point in his career, including rings)

in case you aren't, here's what he's done at 30 Y.O.:

2× NBA Champion (2012–2013)
2× NBA Finals MVP (2012–2013)
4× NBA Most Valuable Player (2009–2010, 2012–2013)
11× NBA All-Star (2005–2015)
2× NBA All-Star Game MVP (2006, 2008)
9× All-NBA First Team (2006, 2008–2015)
2× All-NBA Second Team (2005, 2007)
5× NBA All-Defensive First Team (2009–2013)
NBA Rookie of the Year (2004)
NBA scoring champion (2008)

yes, rings may not be his legacy*

rings are Bill Russell's legacy, for NBA history

rings are MJ's legacy, in the modern era, based on his incredible runs

given that Bron will probably not execute 2 3-peats in his career

or win 11 chips

and I'll go out on a limb here and say NO ONE WILL

that will always give MJ the edge based on JUST rings <--- that's HIS legacy

now if we consider a player in his 11th season, playing in his 6th finals

I think it's safe to say he gets some more chips

how many...IDK

*but there is a possibility that he does end up with 6

an outside chance, but still a chance

so if he does retire ranked all-time in those stats I listed

the question is

not how many does he win

but how many does he need + the stats to be GOAT?

BYE!

for now

stay mad!

>couple of days without you smearing my name
>
>c'mon fam, you better than that (I hope)
>
>what I said, and follow me here, I'm going to type it out
>
>read slowly, I'm tired of re-explaining it
>
>EFFICIENCY will be his legacy
>
>if you PROJECT his career
>
>he has A CHANCE at being
>
>#1 in points, all-time
>top 10 in assists, all-time
>and top 20 in rebounds, all-time
>
>add those up, and it equates to the most efficient player of
>all time.
>
>in the era of analytics and stat geeks

No, it equates to the biggest stat stuffer of all time. Jordan's efficiency stats are actually better with a higher PER and WS/48 than lebron. And bron's efficiency #'s will only continue to decline going forward.


>
>that will be their case for Bron and GOAT (+ all the hardware,
>you are aware he's won about every award possible at this
>point in his career, including rings)
>
>in case you aren't, here's what he's done at 30 Y.O.:
>
>2× NBA Champion (2012–2013)
>2× NBA Finals MVP (2012–2013)
>4× NBA Most Valuable Player (2009–2010, 2012–2013)
>11× NBA All-Star (2005–2015)
>2× NBA All-Star Game MVP (2006, 2008)
>9× All-NBA First Team (2006, 2008–2015)
>2× All-NBA Second Team (2005, 2007)
>5× NBA All-Defensive First Team (2009–2013)
>NBA Rookie of the Year (2004)
>NBA scoring champion (2008)
>
>yes, rings may not be his legacy*
>
>rings are Bill Russell's legacy, for NBA history
>
>rings are MJ's legacy, in the modern era, based on his
>incredible runs

Rings AND numbers + hardware are MJ's legacy. Or are you forgetting that he won a record 10 scoring titles, 5 MVPs, DPOY, and has the highest career scoring average in NBA history?

>
>given that Bron will probably not execute 2 3-peats in his
>career
>
>or win 11 chips
>
>and I'll go out on a limb here and say NO ONE WILL
>
>that will always give MJ the edge based on JUST rings <---
>that's HIS legacy

No. His legacy is the totality of all his accomplishments (some briefly mentioned above.) the rings are his trump card.

>
>now if we consider a player in his 11th season, playing in his
>6th finals
>
>I think it's safe to say he gets some more chips
>
>how many...IDK
>
>*but there is a possibility that he does end up with 6
>
>an outside chance, but still a chance
>
>so if he does retire ranked all-time in those stats I listed
>
>the question is
>
>not how many does he win
>
>but how many does he need + the stats to be GOAT?

Yeah, that's not what you said.


>BYE!

Bye, liar.

best PG in the game

equal to Magic and Zeke

but refuse to give Bron his propers

and continue to move the goal posts

cool, he may not win 6

and if that is indeed a valid argument against him being in the GOAT conversation*

how does that reflect on others like CP65 and counting?

*Bron's accomplishments to date, at 30 Y.O., warrants the discussion

of course he's not the GOAT...yet.

they like better

I'll wait for dat link tbo

>best PG in the game
>
>equal to Magic and Zeke
>

http://board.okayplayer.com/okp.php?az=show_topic&forum=8&topic_id=2436578&mesg_id=2436578&listing_type=search

"Paul absolutely deserves to be in that clump of
guards at the top"

and that's just the OP

obviously if nobody was co-signing it

there wouldn't have been 250+ replies

yes, I am familiar with the authors work

still

that post got run on this board.

you can scroll and pick out the Ls at your convenience

and if you watch basketball

the sentiment travels outside the board

I've seen more than a couple of commentators praise CP65 and counting

he's the best this

he's the best that

so yeah

at some point, all of these agenda are going to need calibration

You stank shells?

Why?

----------------------------



O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

maybe a 3, check back in a few weeks.

.

Something Bron has never done.

But, yeah, it's will to win that got Cheesy and No Means No all their rings.

>Something Bron has never done.
>
>But, yeah, it's will to win that got Cheesy and No Means No
>all their rings.

Yeah, I really wish we could see what Lebron could do if he had some help.

You know Bron could win 10 rings and guess what?

Iverson is still ringless.
Bron didn't play in Philly
Kobe still got 5
You still mad...

lol

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the highest i saw him ranked was third and that was just one very dedicated fan, who even conceded he could be fourth.

most people had him in the back half of their top 10. is that unreasonable RIGHT TODAY? your own assertion that he is top 5 all time is actually among the most controversial made here or in any respectable place.

don't join in on this gangbang of a strawman.

as far as contingencies, i didnt do that but i understand (c) chris rock. the way people move the goalposts on lebron and actually count his accomplishments *against him* makes that sort of effort to obviate almost necessary, unfortunately.

i agree that if he goes 2 for 6 he won't be the best ever but i mean water is also moist. getting to the finals *should* be regarded differently overall though. it is so baffling to me that people can laugh their ass off at the 90s bills, and then turn around to reveal they are fans of the jets or bengals or some other dead ass team that spent the 90s in the seventh circle of football hell.

It's tough though, to me, Shaq, Kobe and Duncan all had the opportunity to ascend that high and did not quite make it.

You know who I think is criminally underrated? Elvin Hayes. I haven't seen him on one top 10. I could see a strong case for him against the Duncans, McHales, Barkleys, Malones and Dirks.

top 3 for me are jorn, wilt, cap. they imo are untouchable. he won't
catch them. nothing to do with rings, they were just better players imo.

after that there's a group of 4 or 5 guys that you could split hairs
about ordering. lebron for me is already in that group if he doesn't
play another minute. that's why i say top 5. ie as high as 4th.

like i said in the other post, i'm not big on cross-era comps, i
prefer to judge guys against their peers. but if i was doing an all
time rushmore or whatever, those would prolly be my 4. as
transcendent players of their respective eras.

Mr. 11 Rangs himself. To hell with Shaq and Timmy too. Dream, Moses? fuck them too. I guess Dr. J was a hype...

>top 3 for me are jorn, wilt, cap. they imo are untouchable.
>he won't
>catch them. nothing to do with rings, they were just better
>players imo.
>
>after that there's a group of 4 or 5 guys that you could split
>hairs
>about ordering. lebron for me is already in that group if he
>doesn't
>play another minute. that's why i say top 5. ie as high as
>4th.
>
>like i said in the other post, i'm not big on cross-era comps,
>i
>prefer to judge guys against their peers. but if i was doing
>an all
>time rushmore or whatever, those would prolly be my 4. as
>transcendent players of their respective eras.

which is probably more like a tier of 6, on second thought.

the others you named? yes, lebron is a better player imo.

as i previously said, for me there's a tier after those top 3
untouchables, basically a 5 or 6 way tie for 4th. so i wouldn't fight
anyone putting him as high as 4th or as low as 8th or 9th. so sure,
as a basketball player, you can make the argument for him vs any of those guys.

lebron's really fucking good, dogg.

where do you rank him all time right today, out of curiosity?

but Duncan and Shaq should be placed above him right today

Again, put the ring argument aside and compare their bodies of work. It aint hard to tell

cmon man, that's just hate. pure and simple.

2-time Finals MVP, League MVP, 2-time DPOY, #1 all-time in blocks(and yeah I know it wasn't an official stat until 73-74 but still)

i think we should make sure that we don't lose sight of the most
important lesson here: at the end of the day we're quibbling over
whether a guy is the 5th best or 15th best of the 3000+ players in
nba history. which pretty much makes us all idiots and bad at life.

>2-time Finals MVP, League MVP

I could also list more things that Bron has done that Dream never did. Not gonna bother though. Cause you're stubborn and just hating.

Among other things.

Definitely forgot about Dirkster. But one thing is in common for what we're talking about - 6'10-7 footers able to win titles without a second star. Don't really see it at all when it comes to wings.

Among other things.

.

Leading your team to the finals 6 times is more impressive than leading them there twice and bowing out early the other 4. That's not even a question. Would you consider Tracy McGrady to have a better legacy than similar players who made it to the finals and lost? No, that would be idiotic.

Not to mention the numerous other accomplishments Bron has over Dream. You listed MVP as a plus for Dream as if Bron had never won one, let alone 4.

Yeah, I'd say that stands up fairly well against 6 finals that include being overwhelmed in 1, choking like a dog in another, needing two hall of fame teammates for the 2 he did win, and getting steamrolled in another. Especially since ppl want to give bron bonus points for getting to the finals without the help of other star players. Olajuwon did that AND won a ring.


Among other things.

Jesus christ guys, this isn't even a debate.

So then Moses must be better than Shaq, right?

-->

So, yeah.

>most people had him in the back half of their top 10. is that
>unreasonable RIGHT TODAY?

i understand thatruth's perspective and from a strict ranking standpoint i kind of agree with him. i'd have bron a little lower than you right now. but who is this bron-as-goat contingent? where do they rest at?

.

does it really matter?

wonder what bin's doing?
http://i.imgur.com/phECCMp.jpg

like how do you justify Kobe as top5 when he's missed more shots
than ANYONE in NBA history? thats mind boggling when u think about it.

I fully expect you to come out your neck and scream "5" as thats what
you've always desperately clung on to pertaining to Kobe, but thats a big ass eye sore one cant overlook imo

>like how so you justify Kobe as top5 when he's missed more
>shots
>than ANYONE in NBA history? thats mind boggling when u think
>about it

Well he's attempted more shots than everyone but Cap and Mailman and they're post players that had the top 3 point guards in NBA history getting them the ball so theres that.

record in the Finals?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2011_finals.html

No matter how much y'all try to hide from it, deny it, bury it, it happened.

Your boy crawled into a hole and died.

Also 6 for 24 happened

never dominating a Finals series happened

Oh,and Eagle Colorado happened as well

GTEFOH.. lol


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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=======================================

LeBron has been a master of masking the poo poo shooting this playoffs.

but I cringe when he goes for 3 now.

Funny thing, if he hits a better percentage of those shots, the level of GUILE would surpass cowbell levels

shit would be ANVIL

However, even with that LeBron has struggled shooting but he hit a key game winner vs Chicago. He had a great overall game vs Atlanta regardless of going 14-37.

People talking about Kobe going 6-24 ignore his 15 rebounds. With Bron, they simply highlight the positives..

Either way... I can care less becuz at the end of the day we're sitting in the clubhouse with a hand full of sparklers. Agendamaniacs can talk about Bron all they want. Kobe will still have 5 and they'll still be mad about. lol



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not to mention with 3 entirely different teams. 2 of the 3 are essentially lottery teams without him there. chew on that for a sec

that ended up great in the end... FG% don't matter as long as you bring home a win and contribute

though I'd stop short of pretending that Kobe performance was anywhere near the realm of these recently inefficient Lebron games in terms of impact on his team.

But I can barely think of more than 2 or 3 all-time canonical Kobe playoff games ever and he's played in more of them than anyone.

>like how do you justify Kobe as top5 when he's missed more
>shots
>than ANYONE in NBA history? thats mind boggling when u think
>about it.
>
>I fully expect you to come out your neck and scream "5" as
>thats what
>you've always desperately clung on to pertaining to Kobe, but
>thats a big ass eye sore one cant overlook imo

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/2818239/bronduncan.gif

.

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

1. People who measure the greatness of a player in a team sport strictly on ring count never heard of the word nuanced.....

2. People (even some Bulls fans in this thread) continue to misunderstand the greatness of Jordan. He's not the GOAT because he has 6 championships. He's the GOAT because he went 6 for 6 in the FINALS and completely dominated in those games racking up a gang of Finals MVP's....

3. The homie Truth just tried some brilliant 30 foot Strawman shit in an attempt to covertly CAPE for Bean Bryant....

I only see one person saying James is top 3 RIGHT NOW....And u can't really take that person seriously at this point....

The rest r saying that James is at 4-5-6 or at the very least is low top 10....It's not a shocker to say that James is better than Magic or Bird....There are a lot of media types and historians who feel that way....I don't have James in my top 3 yet. Gonna take a few more years of dominance for that to happen....

But saying that dude is top 5? Hell, if a Bulls fans can come around to this reality, I think everyone should be able to keep it real...

http://i.imgur.com/7Ukb8kq.gif

Im sure he realizes its importance tho. Winning this year with this team would be huge for his legacy.

The way the East is tho, with a healthier team I can see the Cavs in the Finals often, 8 straight finals appearances? It could happen. Winning a couple of those will obviously help the legacy.

I like your post overall tho, will be interesting to see how his career ends up. Them West teams tho, that's where it will be interesting to see if he can conquer. Golden State, healthy OKC, healthy Spurs with possibly Gasol or Aldridge. He's gonna have some competition for sure, just not likely in the East.

I think if LeBron can hold up a few seasons more he will make it even more of a conversation than it already is.

and if he does it when he's old on some Tim Duncan shit?

Well... that's gonna put him in the top 3, if not GOAT category

https://www.facebook.com/NOTSportsCenter/posts/1084727988221594:0

http://i.imgur.com/8L3J3AP.jpg

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a lot more that he has already surpassed ya boy in most ppl's mind

Bron coming for Jorn now

Pull up all the links you want lol

Oh and the Spurs (and I'd say OKC too) were better teams than any team Bean/LA faced in all his 5 finals:-(

>a lot more that he has already surpassed ya boy in most ppl's
>mind
>
>Bron coming for Jorn now
>
>Pull up all the links you want lol
>
>Oh and the Spurs (and I'd say OKC too) were better teams than
>any team Bean/LA faced in all his 5 finals:-(

were in their primes, that OKC was one of the youngest to make the finals ever

Cumulative totals for players whose careers are done/further along v. a guy who is still playing his age 30 season. It under counts the year he won a title in stoppage-shortened year, OKC would have been a 58 win team instead of 47-19. It over counts some of Kobe's early series because he didn't start in any of those games. The 50/49 cut-off helps Bird, who beat 3 50-32 teams in the playoffs. In an effort to take out some of the noise, I'm re-calibrating that list:

Series wins through Age 30 season against opponents with >.585 regular season winning percentage, in series which the player started every game:

Kobe Bryant - 18
Tim Duncan - 16
Magic Johnson - 11
Michael Jordan - 11
Larry Bird - 10
LeBron James - 10* (Pending 2015 Finals)

all these guys started their careers at different ages. so
the 'age 30 season' stipulation is just as much of a stat juke.
it's just a juke in the opposite direction, that makes lebron's
totals look more favorable.

what are the totals through each player's season 12?

edit: never mind, i looked it up.

going through 'season 12' rather than 'age 30 season' adds
6 series wins to jordan's total (CHA 95, ORL/SEA 96, ATL/MIA/UTA 97),
2 to duncan's (PHO/NOH 08) and magic's (HOU/POR 91), 1 to bird's (ATL 88)
and subtracts 4 from kobe's total (UTA/HOU/DEN/ORL 09).

duncan - 18
jordan - 17
bryant - 14
johnson - 13
bird - 11
james - 10 pending 2015 finals






>Series wins through Age 30 season against opponents with >.585
>regular season winning percentage, in series which the player
>started every game:
>
>Kobe Bryant - 18
>Tim Duncan - 16
>Magic Johnson - 11
>Michael Jordan - 11
>Larry Bird - 10
>LeBron James - 10* (Pending 2015 Finals)
>

>all these guys started their careers at different ages. so
>the 'age 30 season' stipulation is just as much of a stat
>juke.
>it's just a juke in the opposite direction, that makes
>lebron's
>totals look more favorable.
>
>what are the totals through each player's season 12?

I'm not particularly interested in that list. I think age is a more significant baseline as opposed to seasons because it matters most in the end. Anyway, everybody had different situations coming into the league too. Jordan didn't beat a 50 wins team until his 5th season at age 25. Magic beat 3 in his first season at age 20. Kobe beat two in his teenage years scoring single digits coming off the bench.

But if you compare the ESPN list with the list that I made, you can see that Jordan was awesome in his 30s, while Bird and Magic were basically done shortly after turning 30. Kobe won a title at 31 and hasn't won a 50+ win series since.

Duncan is really the one who gets screwed by that ESPN list because he had deep runs in 2 work stoppage years. Using my parameters but removing the Age 30 cap, he'd have 25, which would put him #1 on that list ahead of Kobe's 22 and Jordan's 20.

>

is their longevity in much more competitive conference.

and Bron is last, LOL.

if you had just done the original post, kept it to a paragraph or two, you would've had a strong agenda here. nearly bulletproof even. instead you're going too hard, talking circles around yourself, and getting exposed with your own logic.

IMO it takes a lot of the luster out of his finals appearances without wins

I've avoided this post, and that stat, but this really isnt much of a knock on Lebron, to be honest.

of 5 titles certain things need to be clarified.

>of 5 titles certain things need to be clarified.

You can't name a team that had one solo star and no co-star that was not an allstar or all pro potentially all time great.

Bron is not he most polished offensive player but the way he dominates a game is so understated yet clearly understood.

He only loses when his teammates aren't good enough.

#BronCurve

https://youtu.be/Z3eaTBtJur8

>He only loses when his teammates aren't good enough.
>
>#BronCurve
>
>https://youtu.be/Z3eaTBtJur8

Yall stay attacking this dude but I don't know why.

Are they scared of LeBron?

"Let me join the East so my path is clearer...wait...what team can I join since they're all probably too weak to make it to the Finals?" Guess they'd only be choosing 2-3 teams to go to?

I hope his days of sipping rum out of Lord Stanley's hardware dont return, but other than that...

always these excuses or qualifiers for him from his stans. If you believe he's as great as you say, then you should be fine with him being under the biggest microscope instead of crying anytime anyone has a criticism.

Its mind boggling.

I don't remember Jordan or Kobe stans doing this much whining. They just laughed at the haters as their fav player continued to amass jewelry and accolades.

Bron stans be crying about what Bron doesn't have to do(equal Jordan/Kobe in rings) unprovoked lol

nobody said MJ had to win 6

but he set that bar

and Kobe grafted off of MJ

so that translated

win 6, or you ain't it

and folks still hold that over Kobe's head

IRT Bron

if that is the 1 remaining critique

he ain't got 6

which is a silly argument to make against a 30 Y.O. anyway

I think it says alot about what he's already achieved

with a chance at 3, this year

even if he were to win 6

folks would still have a, yeah but...

^^^ speaking for myself, that is the issue

>which is a silly argument to make against a 30 Y.O. anyway

bc that's where that comes from.

And there was a lot of 'yeah, but' when kobe was winning his chips. Each and every one. Kobe fans laughed partly bc kobe haters unwittingly set the bar higher for anyone who they were going to try to push as being all-time better than Kobe.....ie Tmac, Vince, AI and now Bron.

were exceptions, the list of people that won multiple titles past age 30 is short. Magic won all 5 of his titles in his 20's. Duncan won 4 of his 5 in his 20's.

So acting like Lebron can easily roll off 3 or 4 more titles past age 30 is kinda unrealistic.

look up and down this post

and read the names

repeatedly typing Jordan, Kobe, etc...

is that really an argument AGAINST being one of the greats?

when you consider the players that he's being compared to

it shoudl be clear, no?

IDK who said he IS the GOAT

I don't doubt somewhere in the internets you can find somebody to say it

but I'd also suspect that person didn't SEE Jordan play

the reason we're having the conversation

is because of what he's accomplished

put parameters on it

what does he have to do for you to consider him GOAT?

I suspect you have already made up your mind despite Bron having years left to his career

but it's easier to be a naysayer

in your opinion

what would his final resume have to be for the #1 spot?

say something

say something

how many?

put a # on it

any parameter really

running around here championing some ideal that can't be validated for years anyway

so in the end

how many #rings does it take for you to stfu?

got 2

playing for 3

according to you he needs: ___________

nowhere in my post did i say he can't reach being the best or anything like that. so i can quantify that bc it doesn't matter to me.

I just made an observation about the stans.

that summarizes your Bron stance

got it

any other pearls of wisdom you want to share?

I think people are really starting to overhype this "without his 2nd or 3rd option" thing, lol.

It was obvious right around the all-star break that they were a better team without Love on the court.

The loss of Kyrie's scoring and ballhandling is big but at the same time Delly is a better defender than Kyrie and overall the Cavs probably have better ball movement offensively when Kyrie is out.

The Warriors were the highest scoring team in the league this year at 110ppg. The Cavs held them to 93 points yesterday through regulation AND overtime.

Do they do that with Love and Kyrie in the lineup?

I doubt it.

Can you see them as contenders now with Delly and Mozgawd as their next best two players?

Or is it still a "myth"?

That you've resorted to exquisitely copping MIGHTY pleas on some "but they are better w/ Delly anyway!!" and fumbling all over the place w/ your argument is GOLD.

I love it.

TheFallacy gonna fallacy.

-->

Even if they are better with Thompson on the floor than Love (I agree with that), they are not better without Love in general. As part of their rotation of bigs, he is an asset. He rebounds as well as Thompson while scoring and facing the floor more effectively, his defense just sucks. His absence magnifies the need for Kyrie and vice verse. Irving being out is big, natural scorer and playmaker that's been replaced with a guy who is neither. And that guy would be contributing in a more comfortable role while Irving, who is a better defender than give him credit for, would be slotting everyone into more comfortable roles, including LeBron.

I mean your efforts to discredit LeBron are almost as ridiculous as Vex's dickriding.

The fact that y'all Cuban B B. Russell tells us unequivocally, rings don't matter. 11>>>6 6 is one more than 5 so they about equal when you factor in the west Feel coached in fart outshines the East back then. Someone on another forum went in and used analytics to rank the degree of difficulty of title runs and Kobe's far surpassed Jorn's from what I can remember. Since they don't matter let's talk about it:

Jorn couldn't make five consecutive NBA finals in a row.

Don't talk shit about the east being week during Lebron's run and Cuban B that shit Jorn went through. Going into a season we don't know who'll make the finals out of the east whereas Jorn was a conistent (after the bad boys and Celts fell off) basic lock to leave the east.

In the interest of full disclosure Bron would be heading for five right now if his past teams performed up to the bar they set during the regular season but ignore this section cause we on some agenda shit.

Name another player with less than stellar teammates during asked to shoulder this much of the load during their run. If Bron gets one ring here he's better than Jorn off the strength of this accomplishment. It's not the #BronCurve, it's the #properperspective.

own damn team

Ask anyone on those teams or their staffs or the opposing teams or anyone with any damn sense. Russ was their leader and their top player.

not like those teams were defensive juggernauts in those days, lol

and then when it doesn't fit your narrative you make up every reason to discredit that guy. either rings are the be all end all or there's more to the discussion than that. can't have it both ways.

GOAT convo.

there could be a situation in which a player, whether its Bron or someone else, gets 4-5 rings but surpasses MJ because of other accomplishments. Likely? maybe not, but possible.

>there could be a situation in which a player, whether its
>Bron or someone else, gets 4-5 rings but surpasses MJ because
>of other accomplishments. Likely? maybe not, but possible.

that's what I was addressing. notice I didn't predict anything, and I also said Bron or another player. It was a hypothetical situation. A pretty clear one at that.

...

Russell has to fists full of rings and will hit you with the one hitter quitter using his the two rings on his middle finger.

Only someone on some agenda shit downplays 11 rings.

11>>6

5 is closer to 6 than 6 is to 11. Jordan should've dominated more but we saw what happened when he ran up agains the OGs...

time around. This current team is no better than he had then.

The Lebron stans want to have it both ways, now they screaming "he's doing all this without is 2nd, 3rd, 4th, or 5th option" then they switch and try to say how much better they are than the teams Lebron won 66 and 61 games with.

The problem with Lebron is people wanted to crown him before he was ready.

People like Magic, Bird, Kobe and Duncan were lucky enough to land on a team that was ready to win right away.

Jordan wasn't that fortunate, people doubted him and said he'd never win a title because he scored too much. Jordan kept grinding, his team drafted him some help, Jordan waited on that help to develop and helped with their development.

Bron wasn't ready so he took the easy route and bounced to Miami and got a couple of cheap rings.

Now that he's finally becoming the player he should've been all along people are trying to elevate him to GOAT status.

Jordan had his first 3 titles by age 30 and Lebron has a chance do the same. Even though Lebron has a lot more NBA mileage on his he's still on the right trajectory.

But this continuous #BronCurve logic foolish where Lebron's rings somehow could double is ridiculous.

and will be top 3 within a year.

Top 2 within 2-3 years.

Knocking on MJ's door within 5 years.

Well hey, at least Kobe is considered top 15/10.

-->

just as foolish as surrending with games to play

stand your ground fam.

#fg%matters

actually continue. watching you descend into madness is very entertaining.

No player besides Wilt carried that kind of expectation.

Personally I don't agree that this is what he was supposed to do then or now, or that he's the best ever yet. But if those are the expectations then at a minimum he is the most talented player ever, if not the best ever, because carrying this kind of weight is unprecedented.

Also I think people continue to sleep on just how rotten that 07 roster was. They had better teams later that lost in the second round.

>The problem with Lebron is people wanted to crown him before
>he was ready.
>
>People like Magic, Bird, Kobe and Duncan were lucky enough to
>land on a team that was ready to win right away.


and note, this is coming from a Laker fan.

But this is exactly it. They crowned LeBron before he actually ascended to the throne.

I do think all the celebration and agenda concessions are a little premature, as there are at most 4 more games to play left in the series, and the Cavs have to win 2 of them.

But even from an OKS perspective, a Cavs win these Finals isn't just one of the greatest stories of all time, but LeBron might actually hold off Agendageddon with one move.