When people talk about Kevin Love the first thing they do is talk about his stats.

Much like Chris Bosh leaving Toronto going to Miami, Love's stats are most likely going to drop quite a bit going to a team with 2 other All-stars where he'll be the 2nd or possibly the 3rd option.

So then you have to look past the stats and determine what he'll actually bring to a team with Lebron and Kyrie and determine if that's really worth a max contract.

Poll question: Should Cleveland trade Wiggins for Love?

Poll result (62 votes) Yes (25 votes) Vote No (37 votes) Vote

Ideally you want a player who will produce at a high level and be an important part of your team for multiple seasons, like five or more.

They are getting that in Love and they have to spend ZERO time developing him.

That wouldn't necessarily be the ideal thing for every time, but for a team that has LeBron on what is effectively a one-year contract but has the opportunity to have him for the rest of his career? Yes, you want that, you get that.

There is also the scarcity of opportunity. How many times does an all-star hit the market at 25? Very infrequently. I can't think of any examples under the last two CBAs (there were some guys who became all-stars, but not established ones).

The bottom line is this, if they acquire Love they are a more competitive team immediately. They have the opportunity have both him and LeBron for the rest of their prime. If they gamble and this group does not success, LeBron could opt out next summer and bail. So you could either have LeBron and Love for their entire primes or you could have neither and be back at square one within a year.

Not only do I think they should trade Wiggins--who I think will be an excellent pro--I would trade another asset with him to get it done. Bennett, Waiters, Thompson ... these are not irreplaceable talents. They have to get this done, but it's going to be a protracted thing. Minnesota also has to get it done because Wiggins is the best player they are going to get for Love. But neither side can be too eager, or they will lose the battle for peripheral assets.

Yup.
----------------------------
Same as it ever was!

Ideally you want a player who will produce at a high level and be an important part of your team for multiple seasons, like five or more.

They are getting that in Love and they have to spend ZERO time developing him.

That wouldn't necessarily be the ideal thing for every time, but for a team that has LeBron on what is effectively a one-year contract but has the opportunity to have him for the rest of his career? Yes, you want that, you get that.

There is also the scarcity of opportunity. How many times does an all-star hit the market at 25? Very infrequently. I can't think of any examples under the last two CBAs (there were some guys who became all-stars, but not established ones).

The bottom line is this, if they acquire Love they are a more competitive team immediately. They have the opportunity have both him and LeBron for the rest of their prime. If they gamble and this group does not success, LeBron could opt out next summer and bail. So you could either have LeBron and Love for their entire primes or you could have neither and be back at square one within a year.

Not only do I think they should trade Wiggins--who I think will be an excellent pro--I would trade another asset with him to get it done. Bennett, Waiters, Thompson ... these are not irreplaceable talents. They have to get this done, but it's going to be a protracted thing. Minnesota also has to get it done because Wiggins is the best player they are going to get for Love. But neither side can be too eager, or they will lose the battle for peripheral assets.

for the ppl voting no: if there was a player in this past draft that you knew for a fact would eventually be as good as kevin love is right today, you're telling me you wouldn't take him first?

and how good you think Wiggins will be and how long it will take him to get there.

For some people Love is just a guy putting up empty stats on a bad team. In limited samples of him playing with other talented players on Team USA and in All-Star games he hasn't really stood out and sometimes has even looked out of place.

In general a volume scoring power forward is not a part of a traditional recipe for winning.

Then on the other side you have Wiggins, how often has a legit #1 overall talent landed on a team where he doesn't have to be a savior but is actually playing with best player in the world AND one of the top point guard talents in the NBA?

Can you imagine Kyrie running the break with Lebron and Wiggins on the wings and how frightening that would be?

Or Lebron and Wig on the defensive end?

I am a big fan of his and think he will be an excellent player. But you have to give to get. You're trading a wing for a big, a prospect for a player in his prime and it all fits your current situation. Like I said, both teams HAVE to make this deal. Minnesota is going to lose Love but here they get actual fair return, Cleveland needs a star in his prime.

Does Love give them a guy to protect the rim? LOL, no, but neither do any of the players mentioned. They have the best defender in the league in LeBron, who can play almost any role at that end. Sideshow Bob and some other role player can grind and hack. Meanwhile Love gives them a third consistent 20 PPG producer, an inside weapon that's also an outside weapon, a very good rebounder and a guy who can get the break going. Is he tailor made for them? No. Is he by far the best player they can get today and, honestly, into the foreseeable future? There is no question, even taking the lowest opinion of him that exists (yours).

That, to me, is the key. Talent for talent, whatever, Wiggins may turn out to be as good. But it will take a few years for him to reach his peak. Love is there now. So, a better way of putting would be that if there were an automatic, instant 20/9 player in this year's draft, would he have been taken above Wiggins? Of course.

Allow me to rant for what I hope will be the last time on this subject:

You're Cleveland.

You won the NBA lottery 4 times in the last 9 years and you ain't been to the Finals since the Bush Administration.

You won the geographic lottery with Lebron James.

TWICE.

Do NOT fuck this up again trying to play fortune telling scout genie.

Be grateful for the bird in your hand and don't give away opportunities to add a ring to it by reaching for the bush.

This isn't an LBJ, Duncan, Shaq type of #1 pick.

Wiggins has yet to play a minute of NBA Basketball & was a bad draft-week X-Ray away from going 3rd to Philly.

Would I love to have him as a building block on a young developing team?

Sure.

More than I'd like to have Kevin Love play with Lebron James and be the definitive odds-on favorite to win a ring each of the next two seasons?

Fuck No.

And again, I really like Andrew Wiggins more than most others I know.

They can bluff for a bit, maybe grind down the additional player details to their advantage but bottom line is Flip has gotta get Wiggins in that deal or even David Kahn will be publicly clowning him.

You already have seen offers better than any other combo of young talent you got.

It's cute to think you can give them a couple of mid-to-late firsts, cyse Bennet's summer league svelte figure or Dion's empty scoring totals from last year but eventually you wake up and say 'wait, why am I trying to get cute about this shit?!?'

You take the Top 3 PF to give you two Top 20 players to pair with Lebron James.

A man who left your franchise once and watched you lose 47 more games plus set the record for consecutive defeats the following season.

The guy who has been to the last four finals while you have averaged 23 wins in his absence.

Dude who already declared two years ago what a dream it would be to play with Kevin Love while they were winning Gold Medals for a country full of goofy, overthinking, talking just to talk muggfuggas still applauding for a soccer team winning one out of four games this summer.

A generation deep of draft geeks out here making a mockery of basic logic on this issue.

Kevin Love is actually really good, fellas.

Better than Bosh ever was and that turned out okay.

The agenda-deranged can move the 'no playoff' mantra over to accusing them of being Bron byproducts next year if need be.

like Frankie says


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3n8ks-l-r8

1) Outlet passing. Lebron and Kyrie leaking out after rebounds. Game over.
2) Interior passing from the low post/midpost
3) Shooting and ability to spread the floor either via spot up or pick and roll pick and pop situations
4) Ability to finish garbage shots inside
5 great hands


Who else is putting up these 40 and 19 games?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZhxwzfwMpk

42 and 16
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_nr-jkjr9Jk

31 and 31
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOvr3G5mpzI



Defensively hes obviously below average. Even when he moves his feet, hes short and has 0 lift so guys just elevate over him. Lets be honest though, how many NBA teams right today run an ISO for their 4 play after play. The post up Iso is dead. Which 4s in the east are gonna shit on Kevin Love? Chris Bosh?


I keep hearing this wait wait approach. Lebron doesnt want to wait. For all we know he plays 3-5 more years and then just retires. He aint leaving Cle again no matter what.

Cap flexibility is the major thing I see, but Cle has shown by going out to get Mike Miller and james Jones that theyre comfy sorrounding Bron with old guys. Theyre going all in here. Ray Allen next.

Kyrie is gonna be the future when Brons done.

>Who else is putting up these 40 and 19 games?
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZhxwzfwMpk
>
>42 and 16
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_nr-jkjr9Jk
>
>31 and 31
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOvr3G5mpzI

Like I said above, Love's not going to have many 30 and 40 point games playing with Lebron and Kyrie like he did in Minny when he was the #1 option.

>
>Defensively hes obviously below average. Even when he moves
>his feet, hes short and has 0 lift so guys just elevate over
>him. Lets be honest though, how many NBA teams right today run
>an ISO for their 4 play after play. The post up Iso is dead.
>Which 4s in the east are gonna shit on Kevin Love? Chris
>Bosh?

It's not about ISO's, basketball is a team game even on the defensive end at least for good teams. Post players are expect to be able to provide help when they're perimeter guys get beat. All Love is concerned about is getting in position for the rebound. It's tough to hide a defensive liability in the front court. Carlisle managed to do it for one season when he had a DPOY guy at center and it's not like those guys grow on trees.

The point is he's one of the few guys in the league who has the potential to even have that kinda game. Then we havent even talked about his offensive rebounding.

Your theory is he only gets this many rebounds because his defense? Hes just a poor defender.

Youre the one in the other post crying conspiracy if Cle got him and kept wiggins. Why cry if he sucks so bad.


>>Who else is putting up these 40 and 19 games?
>>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZhxwzfwMpk
>>
>>42 and 16
>>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_nr-jkjr9Jk
>>
>>31 and 31
>>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOvr3G5mpzI
>
>Like I said above, Love's not going to have many 30 and 40
>point games playing with Lebron and Kyrie like he did in Minny
>when he was the #1 option.
>
>>
>>Defensively hes obviously below average. Even when he moves
>>his feet, hes short and has 0 lift so guys just elevate over
>>him. Lets be honest though, how many NBA teams right today
>run
>>an ISO for their 4 play after play. The post up Iso is dead.
>>Which 4s in the east are gonna shit on Kevin Love? Chris
>>Bosh?
>
>It's not about ISO's, basketball is a team game even on the
>defensive end at least for good teams. Post players are expect
>to be able to provide help when they're perimeter guys get
>beat. All Love is concerned about is getting in position for
>the rebound. It's tough to hide a defensive liability in the
>front court. Carlisle managed to do it for one season when he
>had a DPOY guy at center and it's not like those guys grow on
>trees.
>

>The point is he's one of the few guys in the league who has
>the potential to even have that kinda game. Then we havent
>even talked about his offensive rebounding.
>
>Your theory is he only gets this many rebounds because his
>defense? Hes just a poor defender.
>
>Youre the one in the other post crying conspiracy if Cle got
>him and kept wiggins. Why cry if he sucks so bad.

I'm not crying about anything but if they get Love for Bennett and some picks it's definitely suspect

>Which 4s in the east are gonna shit on Kevin Love? Chris
>Bosh?

The Eastern Conference lineup helps. Though they will need someone to help when the guards blow by Kyrie and Dion (hopefully Brewer comes over).

Disagree about him finishing inside though-- isn't he statistically down at the bottom of the bigs for finishes at the rim? I thought I read that. It's certainly not where he does the majority of his damage anyhow.

Not that his ability inside is remotely a deal maker or deal breaker. But yknow. Just saying.

The eye test says he can do damage with paint catches. He does take a lot of threes and float a bit, but if they wanted him to play like Boozer did early on for the Jazz, you don't think he could get paint catches and finish? Please, he's got good hands, a big body and a soft touch.

I don't really see how the TWolves are going to get a better offer than Wiggins (and possibly another player) from another team in the near future.

Secondly, I think Wiggins will be a perfect complement to Lebron going forward. Lebron's going to start slowing down at some point, and he'll see someone else to chase around tough perimeter matchups and lock em up, and you know Kyrie won't be the one to do it. Plus, he's cost controlled for the next 4 years or so, which is past the current CBA. Look how big of an advantage San Antonio had by having Leonard blow up while still on his rookie contract, letting them pay star guys like Duncan/Parker/Manu AND get depth.

Miami's run ended prematurely because within 4 years, Bosh and Wade (especially) were not worth max contracts, and they had zero flexibility to get anyone besides old guys on their last legs and late 1st round rookies to fill out the roster. Not that Bron/Kyrie/Love will not be worth the max in 3-4 years, and the CBA will probably be blown up by then, but if they keep some cap flexibility, who's to say they can't get a good player next summer as well?

My big concern for these Cavs would actually be rim protection. Varejao is a great interior defender, but a good bet to miss half a season, and no one else on the roster can protect the paint, plus Bron ain't flying in from behind for chase down blocks anymore. Love/Bron/Kyrie would be a GREAT offensive combo, but any team with Bron and Kyrie is gonna score in bunches anyway. Where are the good defenders on this team outside of Bron, Varejao, and possibly Wiggins? It would really help if they had some insurance for Varejao on defense.

Say you have wiggins playing off the bench and his numbers dont look great or he doesnt look great. Trade value also goes down there or Minn has even more leverage. The chance of that happening is higher with a rookie playing next to Bron and Kyrie.



Secondly, I think Wiggins will be a perfect complement to Lebron going forward. Lebron's going to start slowing down at some point, and he'll see someone else to chase around tough perimeter matchups and lock em up, and you know Kyrie won't be the one to do it. Plus, he's cost controlled for the next 4 years or so, which is past the current CBA. Look how big of an advantage San Antonio had by having Leonard blow up while still on his rookie contract, letting them pay star guys like Duncan/Parker/Manu AND get depth.

Lebron doesnt care about when Lebron is slowing down. Hes pulling the strings here. He cares about his legacy. If I were just the cavs id understand keeping Wiggins. But they signed the King. They gotta listen.



Miami's run ended prematurely because within 4 years, Bosh and Wade (especially) were not worth max contracts, and they had zero flexibility to get anyone besides old guys on their last legs and late 1st round rookies to fill out the roster. Not that Bron/Kyrie/Love will not be worth the max in 3-4 years, and the CBA will probably be blown up by then, but if they keep some cap flexibility, who's to say they can't get a good player next summer as well?



Kyrie and Love are younger (though they have proven to be injury prone)



My big concern for these Cavs would actually be rim protection. Varejao is a great interior defender, but a good bet to miss half a season, and no one else on the roster can protect the paint, plus Bron ain't flying in from behind for chase down blocks anymore. Love/Bron/Kyrie would be a GREAT offensive combo, but any team with Bron and Kyrie is gonna score in bunches anyway. Where are the good defenders on this team outside of Bron, Varejao, and possibly Wiggins? It would really help if they had some insurance for Varejao on defense.

Theyll add some cheap depth there.

If the deal as constructed remains true, they can trade Wiggins for a big. Or they can move Varejao and his expiring contract.

If they dont give up picks in this dal, they still have picks to give.

"yes" made up ground in a hurry

And, as Mike Armentrout says, "Never take a half measure."

You ride the fence and risk losing out on him. That also means potentially losing LeBron (again).

You don't think other teams will be interested? As I told Frank, there are a lot of franchises, they all want an all-star big man entering his prime. Sure, some teams don't have the assets or financial flexibility, but that doesn't describe everyone. This is not a two-horse race between the Warriors and Cavs, do not be naive.

The thing Longo was pointing to was Love's lack of interest in most of the other teams. That may be true, but they are all better than Minnesota so as the list of suitors expands, so too will his list of suitable destinations.

Short of Love demanding a trade to Cleveland specifically, Cleveland doesn't stand to gain any leverage by waiting IMO.

>Secondly, I think Wiggins will be a perfect complement to
>Lebron going forward. Lebron's going to start slowing down at
>some point, and he'll see someone else to chase around tough
>perimeter matchups and lock em up, and you know Kyrie won't be
>the one to do it. Plus, he's cost controlled for the next 4
>years or so, which is past the current CBA. Look how big of an
>advantage San Antonio had by having Leonard blow up while
>still on his rookie contract, letting them pay star guys like
>Duncan/Parker/Manu AND get depth.

If the Cavs want to maintain flexibility, the best thing to do is to keep Wiggins and hope he's a stud. Personally I don't know why people don't recognize that just with his athleticism, Wiggins would be a monster on the fast break with Bron and Kyrie. He doesn't even need to be an amazing half-court player, just getting up and down the floor, Wiggins should have plenty of games where he can get 10+ points just in transition, feeding of Kyrie and Bron. Have we forgotten how aggressively Wade + Bron were getting down the floor in the early Heat years, back when Wade had knees?

Of course, Love is genuinely a great outlet passer and would complement Kyrie and Bron in that regard, too, so it's tough, but then the pain of the decision rests in the salary structure. If Wiggins is a stud, you get him at cost for four years, AND you have another first-rounder coming up next year. If you move for Love, you've already re-upped Kyrie, you know Bron is focused on maxing out earnings, and it would be pretty silly to talk to Kevin about a paycut when you know tons of teams are lining up to rain money down on him the first chance they get. So now you have your three high-priced superstars locked in, and you have to hope that's good enough, even though you have the extremely recent example of Miami where lack of depth can really come with a cost.

But yeah -- I think as far as talent / win-now considerations, you take Love. But if you're thinking about roster building, it's damn hard to give up four years of rookie scale on a guy that could definitely be an All-Star somewhere within that timeframe.

granted, Wiggins might not be an All-Star this year, but there's a very good chance he will warrant that within the next four years, ESPECIALLY if you bring him up in a healthy ecosystem where he can learn from LeBron and not suffer under the weight of superstar pressure from day one.

What the Cavs really need beyond that is depth, and salary flexibility will help them insert themselves in trades for rotation guys or be able to shop for them in free agency. With Love in the picture, they go to the Miami model of roster construction, and we've seen how that plays out. Only way it changes is if the salary cap jumps dramatically, which would be in 2 years when Wiggins will likely be an All-Star anyway.

If they flop this year, it's "The Decision Part III"

Going to Bron's rookie year, I said they needed to take the long view, not be the insecure boyfriend. They should stay flexible and use him as a bargaining chip. But he's not 18 anymore. He's about 30. He's also not under contract for four years. He's under contract, effectively, for one.

Time to win now, today. Not next year, not in four years. THIS YEAR.

Firstly, you ignore the possibility that adding Love could result in the same thing as keeping Wiggins, i.e. no chip, in which case two years from now Cleveland wouldn't just be a struggle situation for Bron, but in the Love scenario a struggle situation with less flexibility and a dimmer future. More or less the same situation he just left in Miami. He also could be in the Finals, possibly even winning, with Wiggins. We don't know how good Wiggins is.

You act as if there are two choices: add Love and become champs, or keep Wiggins and don't become champs. That's just a completely ridiculous way to frame the options.

Secondly, you seem to assume Cleveland's only hope of retaining Bron is winning championships, when there's absolutely nothing to support this. I thought it was pretty transparent that the 2-year deal is in order to maximize his earnings after the new TV deal kicks in, and at that time Cleveland will be able to offer him the most years and the most money. Why shouldn't Cleveland proceed confidently with a strong shot at winning the East this yearr, while still putting themselves in position to compete at the highest level for years to come?

Basically you're framing this as "get Love or lose Bron" when there really are many, many more scenarios than just that.

>Firstly, you ignore the possibility that adding Love could
>result in the same thing as keeping Wiggins, i.e. no chip, in
>which case two years from now Cleveland wouldn't just be a
>struggle situation for Bron, but in the Love scenario a
>struggle situation with less flexibility and a dimmer future.
>More or less the same situation he just left in Miami. He
>also could be in the Finals, possibly even winning, with
>Wiggins. We don't know how good Wiggins is.

We know how good Love is. With Love, the Cavs would be odds-on favorites to win the East. They would be championship contenders immediately. Not on any unspecified timeline. If they don't *win* the title, I don't think LeBron, who stressed his patience in the letter, will bail just because of that. If they spend the year bowling with the bumpers on because they have a bunch of kids, then yes, he will have a wandering eye. Your argument is a relativist one and the comparison to Bear Stearns is, frankly, really fucking stupid. We are not talking about a 31-year-old mercenary with Love, we are talking about a guy in his mid 20s who is already balling. It's a fine move for the future.

>You act as if there are two choices: add Love and become
>champs, or keep Wiggins and don't become champs. That's just
>a completely ridiculous way to frame the options.

No, the choice is between acquiring Love and contending for a title or keeping Wiggins and risking a return to the dark ages. In a way, that is an even more dire proposition. I really like Wiggins, but a college freshman with some raw elements to his game is not the lynchpin of a title team right today. They don't have tomorrow to wait for. They have two years, and maybe just one.

>Secondly, you seem to assume Cleveland's only hope of
>retaining Bron is winning championships, when there's
>absolutely nothing to support this. I thought it was pretty
>transparent that the 2-year deal is in order to maximize his
>earnings after the new TV deal kicks in, and at that time
>Cleveland will be able to offer him the most years and the
>most money. Why shouldn't Cleveland proceed confidently with
>a strong shot at winning the East this yearr, while still
>putting themselves in position to compete at the highest level
>for years to come?

Oh really? That's apparent? Then why can he opt out after one year? This is LeBron we are talking about, not Tony fucking Gwynn.

>Basically you're framing this as "get Love or lose Bron" when
>there really are many, many more scenarios than just that.

There are but almost ALL the favorable ones include them acquiring Love. Love is not a short-term rental, he is a cornerstone for a long time. Wiggins might be that, but we aren't sure, and he is certainly not that immediately. You're trading prospect for proven and small for big. In what fucking universe is that a difficult decision???

>We know how good Love is. With Love, the Cavs would be odds-on
>favorites to win the East. They would be championship
>contenders immediately. Not on any unspecified timeline. If
>they don't *win* the title, I don't think LeBron, who stressed
>his patience in the letter, will bail just because of that. If
>they spend the year bowling with the bumpers on because they
>have a bunch of kids, then yes, he will have a wandering eye.
>Your argument is a relativist one and the comparison to Bear
>Stearns is, frankly, really fucking stupid. We are not talking
>about a 31-year-old mercenary with Love, we are talking about
>a guy in his mid 20s who is already balling. It's a fine move
>for the future.

But it's about the roster construction. With two players on long-term MAX and LBJ angling for top dollar, your left with very little flexibility. If that roster, for whatever reason, fails to win the chip ... well then that's your roster the next year, too. With Wiggins as the long-term piece, you can count on his development and still be a player in acquiring rotation pieces. Also, there will be other trade offers you can package a young guy in if you decide that's the right move. I know Love is young, but his presumed contract structure is what locks the roster in, not his age or decline or anything.

>No, the choice is between acquiring Love and contending for a
>title or keeping Wiggins and risking a return to the dark
>ages. In a way, that is an even more dire proposition. I
>really like Wiggins, but a college freshman with some raw
>elements to his game is not the lynchpin of a title team right
>today. They don't have tomorrow to wait for. They have two
>years, and maybe just one.

But this is also where you get to -- is Bennett in the deal? Thompson? Because while I don't expect either to be Kevin Love, they could still show real progression playing alongside LBJ. Wiggins is the center-piece, sure, but that's where you're left with the question of how serious a contender is left once Love arrives. Wiggins backstops LBJ, offers a bridge to the future, Thompson or Bennett COULD make Love less of a dire need. That's part of the flexibility you sacrifice flexibility, too...

>There are but almost ALL the favorable ones include them
>acquiring Love. Love is not a short-term rental, he is a
>cornerstone for a long time. Wiggins might be that, but we
>aren't sure, and he is certainly not that immediately. You're
>trading prospect for proven and small for big. In what fucking
>universe is that a difficult decision???

Kevin Love only plays one side of the floor. Wiggins might be ANYTHING, in what world is trading away supposedly the best draft prospect in years before he even plays a minute anything less than rash?

Boston, the Lakers (twice) and the Heat (twice) all essentially had three max guys (KG/Ray/PP, Kobe/Pau/Bynum and Bosh/Wade/Bron). They all managed to continue attracting free agents (ring chasers) and making decent draft picks in some cases. Those three teams also account for four more Finals appearances in which they lost. So, um, what exactly are we criticizing here? And what are they going to do with this magnificent "flexibility" between now and the time Wiggins gets his max deal? Maybe sign a player like Kevin Love, if they are insanely lucky.



>But this is also where you get to -- is Bennett in the deal?
>Thompson? Because while I don't expect either to be Kevin
>Love, they could still show real progression playing alongside
>LBJ.

Two guys that play the same position as each other and kinda sorta the same one as LeBron or Love? Who gives a shit? Bennett was a colossal bust in year one and what he does in summer league means shit to me. Guys like Waiters and Thompson will be solid pros but are they deal-breakers in a trade like this? I could see some reservation on Bennett if you seriously value his potential, but not enough to hold up the deal. Obviously the core of this deal is good for both teams, now, as I said, it's a battle to see who comes out ahead in peripheral assets. That said, they are still peripheral.

Wiggins is the center-piece, sure, but that's where
>you're left with the question of how serious a contender is
>left once Love arrives. Wiggins backstops LBJ, offers a
>bridge to the future, Thompson or Bennett COULD make Love less
>of a dire need. That's part of the flexibility you sacrifice
>flexibility, too...

What has either of those guys done to prove they are ready to play for a contender right now? Fucking nothing. This is not about asset management, if it were, you might be right. But it's not, it's about winning and it's about winning immediately. There is no reason to wait when you have the best player in the league. Would someone have taken this attitude if Michael Jordan went to some team like the Timberwolves when he came back the first time? Of course not, they would have immediately tooled up with veterans, especially if a star in his prime were magically available.


>Kevin Love only plays one side of the floor. Wiggins might be
>ANYTHING, in what world is trading away supposedly the best
>draft prospect in years before he even plays a minute anything
>less than rash?

In how many "years" are we talking? Two? He is very promising but I wouldn't say he is like heads above Anthony Davis. Do you think Wiggins is clearly going to be a better player than Love? How could anyone believe that, Love is a top 20 player in the league by even a pretty conservative estimate. Any time you add a great rebounder, your defense is not going to suffer that much, that's something I think is lost in these "one side of the floor" arguments.

'you can't do the superteam thing anymore, we all saw how that ended up in miami'

ummm, extremely fucking successfully?

and I would pick the Cavs roster, as is, to emerge from the East this year.

Making the Finals four times, coming out of the East, isn't that mind-blowing. Two for four in Finals is good, but like I said that's a razor thin margin and I would hope the team with the best player in basketball (now the Cavs...) could capitalize on that at least half the time in the Finals.

So it's not that the Heat were bad, per se, it's makes for a small window. Why take the small window when the Cavs are poised to create a big one if they play it right?

that isn't evidence that the big 3 model doesn't work, it just shows that you need to pick the right 3 guys.

kevin love is 25. kyrie irving's 22. in 4 years, both will still be well within their primes.

that would have been successful, and they didn't, they won twice and weren't embarrassed or anything (think 2007 Cavs) the other times either.

This thread has made people lose their damn minds, I swear.

In our case, there were two. It's not easy to find versatile bigs who play both sides of the floor without paying top dollar, and once Cleveland locks in Love, they won't be able to ...unless Dieng is included which imo would be a colossal steal for Cleveland and fuck up by Minny.

just a cheap rim-protector.

you guys keep acting like it'd be impossible for them to add one once they've locked into bron/love/kyrie @ max.

like gorgui dieng wasn't drafted in the 20s. like ibaka wasn't. like taj and tiago weren't. like d jordan and asik didn't go 2nd rd.

there's always guys out there. they'd find someone.






>In our case, there were two. It's not easy to find versatile
>bigs who play both sides of the floor without paying top
>dollar, and once Cleveland locks in Love, they won't be able
>to ...unless Dieng is included which imo would be a colossal
>steal for Cleveland and fuck up by Minny.

and Hibbert isn't that great of a basketball player. Even Larry Sanders is on like $11M/yr, isn't he? And Splitter isn't even really a rim protector and he's making like $9M/yr? There's no such thing as "cheap" rim protection in the NBA any more. Maybe you could draft a guy ... maybe ... but outside the lotto, you'd probably have to target a project a la Steven Adams (who was lotto, anyway) and now you're outside the "WIN NOW!" mode if it's a draft project you're counting on putting you over.

>Maybe you could draft a guy ... maybe ... but outside the lotto, you'd
>probably have to target a project a la Steven Adams (who was lotto, anyway)

i just named a bunch of guys who went late 1st/2nd.

>and now you're outside the "WIN NOW!" mode if it's a draft project you're counting on
>putting you over.

so you're picking them to win the east right away w/ wiggins in a large role, but a rim-protecting bit player would take years to develop and delay the window?

a bron/love/kyrie/dieng core couldn't 'win now' because dieng isn't ready?

you sure you wanna go w/ that?

Of course we have the luxury of hindsight so although guys may be available and have been in the past, that doesn't change that talent evaluation is often lacking......and the one thing that the Cavs management has shown, other than the 2 no-brainer picks, is that they aren't all that savvy in their draft evaluations.

There's a reason proven rim protectors like Hibbert and Deandre who have barely any other skills are $10 million+ players. If it was that easy to pluck a starting quality rim protector, every team would just pick one at the back end of the 1st round.

actually that's EXACTLY the type of guys i'm referring to when i mention cheap rim protection. you put a guy like that on a team with 3 top 20 players, give him a very specific defined role, which is to stand in front of the rim and goon out for 20 or 25 min a night, and he'd be fine. his impact on that team would be a lot different than on say a utah or charlotte.

they wouldn't need $15M for a roy hibbert, who's indy's #2 scoring option in addition to his defensive duties. they'd just need a younger joel anthony or birdman andersen. if that guy gives them 5 pts a game, that's fine. and being on the court with a guy like lebron is going to elevate everyone's level of play. ppl are making that argument for wiggins, why wouldn't it be the same for a young shot-blocking big?

it's contradictory to act like finding a decent rim-protector is impossible w/ 3 max contracts on the books, and then fawn over how perfect gorgui dieng -- a late 1st rd pick in last yr's draft i.e. a very available type of player -- would be in that role.

what's wrong with bismack biyombo?

http://bkref.com/tiny/9f7j9

2nd in the league in blocks per 36 min, behind serge

http://bkref.com/tiny/RavQd

1st in blocks per 100 possessions, just ahead of AD, serge and hibbs

(btw, gobert would've been 1st in both categories but didn't play enough minutes to qualify)

http://bkref.com/tiny/KSDwQ

3rd in block percentage, behind AD and serge

http://i.imgur.com/22Vr7tc.png

1st in the league in opponent's FG% @ the rim, by a wide margin

...

i need to know why biyombo couldn't be the center on a contender, if it also included a top 5 PF, a top 5 PG, and the best player in the world, and all he had to do was guard the front of the rim.

like, i need a more compelling reason than LOL DOOD IT'S BISMACK BIYOMBO LOLZ

cleveland should actually go after dude whether they land love or not. watch some smart team swoop him up @ a decent price while everybody else is LOL'ing.

If they have a healthy Varejao and another big who can protect the rim--it doesn't have to be Hibbert or Gasol or anyone crazy--they are in business. LeBron is the rangiest defender in the league. Love is one of the best rebounders. Bosh and Garnett were so critical because they had little else up front. If they have Love and then get some depth around him, role guys, then they will be totally fine. No one things Love is going to come in and play like Hakeem. They will need to round out their team in other ways, but again Wiggins doesn't protect the rim either.

I don't think Varejao is all that good of a rim protector, he's a good positional player but he doesn't provide much protection vertically. KG and Bosh were important because they are bigs who provide the majority of backside cover, horizontally and vertically, with their length and versatility. Lebron may be the rangiest defensive player, but how often is he rotating in the paint? I feel with Love you need a very strong rim protector to complement him, Varejao isn't that guy. With Wiggins, you allow yourself another excellent wing defender who can force the defense into their 3rd, 4th, 5th options while also making your rotations that much quicker, and you allow more salary flexibility in order to find that strong rim protection.

You're not filling the need you're looking at with Wiggins, you may or may not be improving your defense as a whole (consider a raw Wiggins defense against a developed Love's rebounding) and you can go out and get a piece that fills that need. Is it available? Maybe, maybe not, but the only argument that it would be more available with Wiggins is that he gives you salary flexibility for next year. IMO no marquee rim protector is going to hit the market. So either way you are looking at secondary options. I just don't see it as a consideration here. If we were talking about trading like Nerlens Noel for Love (which I would do, incidentally), I could see a stronger argument because he is a rim protector. As it is, this sort of secondhand addressing of the need (perimeter defender that might ease the burden on the interior guys) is just not convincing.

you can keep wiggins, Hibbert's a rim protector who doesn't need touches, his contract's up in a couple years.

indy would get dion and thompson or bennett for a guy who supposedly disappeared. it actually makes too much sense. i guess the in-the-division stuff is the problem?

-----------
Y'all stupid...should've tanked for Lebron/Wiggins in 2014 -Rex LongFellow

Its 2014...there are computers in glasses and people stunt after hitting the ball far. Get over it. -Cenario

It's only funny till someone gets mad. Then it's hilariou

You think Indiana is going to take some clearance rack prospects for one of their main players? Do you see them taking say Waiters and Thompson for him? I don't.

Is a team with Hibbert and a rookie Wiggins better than a team with Love? I am not entirely sure, and again you have to give up assets to get Hibbert.

Wow
-----------
Y'all stupid...should've tanked for Lebron/Wiggins in 2014 -Rex LongFellow

Its 2014...there are computers in glasses and people stunt after hitting the ball far. Get over it. -Cenario

It's only funny till someone gets mad. Then it's hilariou

what i meant was that they dont have assets to move for hibbert and they wouldn't move wiggins for him, so like the horford speculation that seems moot to me.

waiters/thompson? i'm honestly surprised that those guys wouldn't at least get the convo started.

The Pacers get younger (but without trading a real veteran like say West) and smaller when they are trying to compete in an open east? I don't see it. I think if anything a deal for a lesser big man and a good point guard would be what they wanted for Hibbert. I also think Bennett's trade value is really limited at the moment. Cavs should hang onto him if possible, have faith in their evaluation of him.

your argument is that lebron/love/irving wouldn't work because you'd still need a rim protector and you wouldn't have the money to go out and get one. that simply isn't true. you'd have to value-shop, sure, but you could find a guy for cheap who would suffice.

you couldn't do it year one -- they'd have to just make do with varejao + a stopgap vet-min type -- but next summer they have the full MLE, the BAE, and possibly 3 first round picks, minus whatever they'd move in the love deal. with those tools at their disposal, they can get decent rim protection. you're not getting hibbs or ibaka but you wouldn't need to. those guys make 8 figs annual b/c they also have significant offensive responsibilities, a bron/love/irving core would have that covered. they'd literally just need a guy to protect the paint, w/ no real scoring duties. guys like that are eminently available and affordable.

http://i.imgur.com/22Vr7tc.png

there's plenty of guys on that list that could be had w/ MLE money or less and who'd give them exactly what they needed. robin lopez, mahinmi, udoh, mosgov, withey, o'quinn, the aforeshitted-on biyombo and gobert. you might laugh at some of those names, but you might have laughed at joel anthony and chris andersen too. and it's not that i'm even endorsing those specific names, just pointing out the types of guys they could realistically target who would be more than sufficient. or if they decided to go the draft route, i named some guys earlier who went late 1st and 2nd rd. they wouldn't need an all star there, or even a guy who they'd depend on at all for scoring. just somebody to stand in front of the rim, alter shots and be a presence.

to paraphrase big boi, you don't worry about the wood grain steering wheel til after you get the rims. kevin love is the fucking rims, man. get him into the fold and worry about the accoutrements later. as i said in the other thread, the challenge of building around 3 top 20 guys is a *good* problem to have.

http://i.imgur.com/22Vr7tc.png

biyombo and gobert were 2 of the better young rim protectors in the league last year. per-minute blocks on a par with hibbert and ibaka.

you add 2 cheapo guys like that to a lebron/love/irving core, with waiters, thompson and a couple veteran wing shooters off the bench. play them 20 minutes apiece and go smallball w/ thompson @ center for the other 8. and you're winning the damn title.

it's not rocket science.

let's slow our roll on how cheap rim protectors are when the only examples of cheap ones are on rookie deals.

-----------
Y'all stupid...should've tanked for Lebron/Wiggins in 2014 -Rex LongFellow

Its 2014...there are computers in glasses and people stunt after hitting the ball far. Get over it. -Cenario

It's only funny till someone gets mad. Then it's hilariou

who's still on rookie scale.

and even after rookie scale, guys that are SOLELY rim protectors with no real offensive duties can be had for MLE or thereabouts. and that's all a bron/love/irving cavs team would need @ center.

>let's slow our roll on how cheap rim protectors are when the
>only examples of cheap ones are on rookie deals.

this isn't true. saying it over and over won't make it true.

look at the list i posted. every guy on there isn't either on rookie scale or making huge money. robin lopez and mahinmi were MLE guys. udoh and mozgov are UFAs that won't break the bank. koufos is cheap. i'm not saying there's a ton of guys, but they're out there and smart front offices find them.

we're not talking about all pros here. you guys are setting the bar too high w/ this hibbert/ibaka stuff. you're not gonna get great all around players @ every single position.

at center and not desperately try to upgrade. biyombo couldnt get 20 minutes a game in charlotte, but he'll be the rim protector Cleveland needs? ok, player.

-----------
Y'all stupid...should've tanked for Lebron/Wiggins in 2014 -Rex LongFellow

Its 2014...there are computers in glasses and people stunt after hitting the ball far. Get over it. -Cenario

It's only funny till someone gets mad. Then it's hilariou

i don't think cleveland is going to be looking to invest 10 or 12 or 14 million a yr on a starting center regardless of whether or not they trade for love. they are going to have to resign thompson and waiters and wiggins at some point.

i think they're going to be looking for the 25 yr old equivalents of haslem and birdman and joel anthony, exactly the type of cheapo role guys that you all are disparaging.

until one did.

i wouldn't call either of them a markedly better rim protector than ian mahinmi.

>biyombo couldnt get 20 minutes a game in charlotte, but he'll be the
>rim protector Cleveland needs? ok, player.

sure. why not?

biyombo didn't play more minutes in charlotte because the team was poorly constructed with no real scoring punch on the wing and desperately needed jefferson's scoring from its center position. a team with 20+ppg scorers at 3 other positions would have different needs there.

when biyombo was on the floor, opponents shot under 39% at the rim. that's elite level rim protection. if you're writing him off at 21 years old and don't think he could make a bigger contribution in the future in a different situation, you're being very shortsighted.

what about robin lopez? he couldn't be an effective starter w/ bron, love and irving? he's currently on a 3yr 15M contract, after being given up on early in his career by multiple teams.





>at center and not desperately try to upgrade. biyombo couldnt
>get 20 minutes a game in charlotte, but he'll be the rim
>protector Cleveland needs? ok, player.
>
>-----------
>Y'all stupid...should've tanked for Lebron/Wiggins in 2014
>-Rex LongFellow
>
>Its 2014...there are computers in glasses and people stunt
>after hitting the ball far. Get over it. -Cenario
>
>It's only funny till someone gets mad. Then it's hilariou

He was a scrub playing against other teams scrubs.

Robin Lopez is the best example you've got and he's making almost seven million on a contract that would be deemed cheap for what he provides. So....not a cheap player.

Miami starting Harlem and Anthony and bird man is a part of why they only won two rings while starting Lebron, bosh, and wade. Alternatively, I'd say Lebron, Irving, and a better constructed set of role players would do better than Lebron, Irving, love, and cheap players.

But please, let's both continue saying the same thing at each other with different examples. Fun!
-----------
Y'all stupid...should've tanked for Lebron/Wiggins in 2014 -Rex LongFellow

Its 2014...there are computers in glasses and people stunt after hitting the ball far. Get over it. -Cenario

It's only funny till someone gets mad. Then it's hilariou

so let's say they don't trade for love, keep wiggins and pursue a rim protector instead, via trade or free agency next yr.

can you give me some specific examples of guys you think they should pursue? i'm just trying to get an idea.

i know you already mentioned hibbert. who else?

a gortat or asik woulda been perfect. this is the point, though. I don't think rim protectors are out there in numbers. that's why i value it highly.

-----------
Y'all stupid...should've tanked for Lebron/Wiggins in 2014 -Rex LongFellow

Its 2014...there are computers in glasses and people stunt after hitting the ball far. Get over it. -Cenario

It's only funny till someone gets mad. Then it's hilariou

see, if i'm cleveland, i'd rather have lebron, love and irving, and then try to find the NEXT gortat or asik. not the 30 yr old versions that already require big money, but the orlando gortat or the chicago asik.

i really do think that you could put those three with a low-cost specialist like biyombo or gobert @ center and be in business. pair one of those younger guys with a cheap vet like udoh or mahinmi and they'd be fine. i'm not targeting guys in the 10-15M/yr range, i think that's overkill and an unnecessary waste.





>a gortat or asik woulda been perfect. this is the point,
>though. I don't think rim protectors are out there in numbers.
>that's why i value it highly.

but it's not likely you'll find the asik or gortat, else, they wouldn't get 10+ mil in fagency.

-----------
Y'all stupid...should've tanked for Lebron/Wiggins in 2014 -Rex LongFellow

Its 2014...there are computers in glasses and people stunt after hitting the ball far. Get over it. -Cenario

It's only funny till someone gets mad. Then it's hilariou

Look at the Spurs, they have had guys like Oberto and Rose playing next to Duncan. I am not saying Love is on Duncan's level, I am just saying that you can have a star and then a bunch of depth specialists. That seems like a fine recipe. They don't need Mutombo, shit they could probably settle for Kendrick Perkins.

duncan was the defensive leader in the paint when they had scrub ass guys playing next to him.

-----------
Y'all stupid...should've tanked for Lebron/Wiggins in 2014 -Rex LongFellow

Its 2014...there are computers in glasses and people stunt after hitting the ball far. Get over it. -Cenario

It's only funny till someone gets mad. Then it's hilariou

healthy varejao is a hustle guy, rebounder, rim protector. thompson can hit the boards. love, obviously, is an asset on the glass. if they got another guy like a mozgov he wouldn't be a huge piece of the puzzle or even a starter.

the whole "NO RIM PROTECTOR" argument snowballed quickly and i can't figure out why. i also can't figure out why this poll didnt swing appropriately when it was about even. a lot of people will live to regret what they said in here.

you talking about the guy who was going 3rd to philly until embiid broke his foot? let's not pretend that cleveland is punting on '85 ewing or '92 shaq here.

For as much people want to poo poo on Bosh about his performance, he was the defensive lynchpin for that Miami team due to his combination of length and agility...a team that was predicated on their defense. He was also big enough to play at the 5 so you could move Bron to the 4 which made for a very quick defensive team. We know that in the playoffs the game turns into a grind and weaknesses in your half-court defense get amplified....and they certainly would get amplified with Love in the game. Wiggins is going to be a stud defensively....not only due to his athleticism and length but he clearly already shows a dedication that side of the ball that you often don't see in players of his age and especially of that level of being hyped. Further, with Wiggins being on a rookie contract vs Love's (what will be a) max, that allows the team some financial flexibility in acquiring a paint protector.

I really like Love but I think if Kyrie increases his defensive effort (which will happen since he's now playing on a winning team and not just for buckets) and ball pressure with Lebron and Wiggins on the wings, that's a really scary defensive unit who can take away a lot of offensive options.

>I really like Love but I think if Kyrie increases his
>defensive effort (which will happen since he's now playing on
>a winning team and not just for buckets) and ball pressure
>with Lebron and Wiggins on the wings, that's a really scary
>defensive unit who can take away a lot of offensive options.

>I really like Love but I think if Kyrie increases his
>defensive effort (which will happen since he's now playing on
>a winning team and not just for buckets) and ball pressure
>with Lebron and Wiggins on the wings, that's a really scary
>defensive unit who can take away a lot of offensive options.

Couldn't the same be said for Love or is he just incapable of being a solid defender? He was carrying the entire wolves offense

As a 4, Love is going to be playing in space defensively and asked to protect the paint and rim. That's going to be an issue with his size, strength, and speed limitations. Kyrie has the lateral ability and quickness to apply ball pressure, it's just a matter of effort.

There's only so many shots to go around and only so many missed shots to grab, and any team with Kyrie/Bron is gonna score a grip of points, and the Cavs as constructed are already a strong rebounding team.

At some point you have to address defense and young athletic defenders who aren't a total offensive liability don't grow on trees. I mean it's easy to say "oh we can just teach these guys to defend" but there's a reason why guys like Kawhi Leonard are so valuable. I'm trusting Wiggins can defend at an above average clip while filling the lane for a dunk and making a few open shots once in a while (he doesn't even have to do things he sucks at like dribble or create next to Bron!).

And I realize that the Cavs need to impress this year and next, but as Bron gets older, his skills are going to gravitate to the playmaking 4, which is the same thing Love does.

Is losing Wiggins going to hurt their INTERIOR defense? It may not even hurt their perimeter defense in the short run (though ultimately he will be good at that end). Is losing Bennett or Waiters going to hurt their interior D?

You add Love--bang, 10+ boards a game, fuels transition--then you have a healthy Andy, who does nothing but hustle and defend, and you get Dieng in the deal. Now your team is bigger and better defensively. I am really surprised that you've had 24 hours to think about this and are still pushing this flimsy argument.

I've had more than 24 hours to think about it and it's still pretty simple to me: With Love at the 4, you are going to have some major issues on the backside of your defensive rotation and I was using Bosh as an example to show the kind of complementary piece and fit that Cleveland should wait to pay rather than locking themselves in with Love. You wanna call my argument flimsy yet fail to recognize that defensive rebounding and outlet passing aren't nearly equal to a backside rim protector especially when A) Love will be pulled away from the paint far more often and B) Varejao isn't much of a rim protector either. I haven't seen the iteration of the deal where Cleveland gets Dieng and Minny would remiss to include him imo.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bsy6BOgIEAAsGA5.jpg

He's worse than Bosh on that end of the floor

His game would be a better fit on a team like GS

While I don't completely subscribe to this idea that "he's putting up numbers on a bad squad," I do wonder why his impressive stats don't seem to translate into team wins - the Timberwolves haven't even been in the hunt for an 8th seed...

Now, maybe he'll become more committed on defense if he were playing w/Lebron but I think he's just a lousy defender and might always be a liability on that end of the floor

Wiggins has the makings to be a special defensive player because of his length, quickness, and the effort to which he puts forth on that end of the floor ALREADY and his offensive game can and will improve, especially practicing and playing w/Lebron everyday - I just think it's befitting that Cleveland drafts him no.1 and then Lebron returns w/an opportunity to be a mentor to Wiggins who ppl were making comparisons to Lebron, ironically, although their gms aren't similar in any way (odd that Parker has been compared to Melo more so than any other player)

Love almost gives the Cavs the same thing Bosh gave the Heat: the ability to stretch the floor..but what he doesn't give the Cavs is also what Bosh couldn't give the Heat and that's an inside presence, somebody that you can throw the ball into the low post and they can get you 2, which is what that Cavs team is going to need just as the Heat could no longer mask that weakness of not having a real post threat (Tristan Thompson/Varajeo/Bennett ain't enough although Bennett has been looking impressive in summer league)

W/Wiggins, I like the idea of the Cavs being an up tempo team, w/Love, they'd probably be more of a half-court team.

Like I said before, as far as I'm concerned, Wiggins' potential is worth the risk of losing a proven double-double machine in KLove

No, although he projects to be a good defender, that isn't his position/role. Are you going to say having a stopper in 2-3 years is worth giving up 20+ and 10+ RIGHT TODAY? Are these other guys that might go in the trade going to do it?

If they have Varejao and Dieng, they have plenty of inside muscle, plus Love doing his thing on the glass.

A starting lineup with Irving, James, Love, and Varejao can put a journeyman at 2 guard and be a legit contender. If they can hold on to Waiters they are a favorite.

An Irving, Wiggins, James, AB?, Varejao lineup will struggle to score and will get pounded on the glass. Love will create offense for everyone in the frontcourt, and his defensive rebounding keeps him from being bad enough defensively to justify NOT making the trade.

Love will immediately be the best teammate lebron has ever had.

And I really, really like Wiggins.

Anti-gentrification, cheap alcohol & trying to look pretty in our twilight posting years (c) Big Reg


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Anti-gentrification, cheap alcohol & trying to look pretty in our twilight posting years (c) Big Reg


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K-Love shot 18 times a game...30% of his shots were 3's. He shot 45% from the field (50% on 2's, 37% on 3's). Very strong defensive rebounder, avg offensive rebounder. 4.4 apg. Less than a steal and a .45 blocks per game.

Kyrie shot 17 times a game...27% of his shots were 3's. He shot 43% from the field, (45% on 2's, 35% on 3's). 1.5 spg.

Bron shot 17 times a game...27% of his shots were 3's. He shot 56% from the field (62% on 2's, 37% on 3's). 1.5 spg.


Now...playing with Bron, Wade and Bosh put up 14 and 12 shots per game. I'm thinking there's gonna be some HUGE sacrifices here. Is love really worth Wiggins' potential at 14 shots? 4 of which will probably be 3's? I will say that he might have better rebounding numbers BUT, he might not. Might be lateral. And he doesn't intimidate anyone on D. Love's shot chart shows that he spent his time either shooting 3's or posting up/getting layups off penetration. When he's shooting 3's he can't rebound.

To top that off...he'll make 15 mil next season and will want a Max extension.

I dunno fam. If he was a much better defender, this would be a no brainer but I don't see them being as effective as Miami. And the reason is that 2010-2012 Wade>>>>>>>>>Kyrie as a defender, Bosh>>>>>>>Love as a defender. A LOT of their defensive prowess rested on the big 3 and guys like Battier and UD. The Cavs don't have those guys and can't get them if they sign Love.

I'd much rather develop Wiggins under Bron, let those two (and Kyrie's quick hands) pressure the perimeter, Andy and Tristan eat glass and let Kyrie/Bron take the bulk of the shots (efficiently) and distribute accordingly.

A Cavs team with Love will have huge issues getting stops and filling out the roster due to the cap sitch.

A Cavs team with Wiggins has to wait on his development and may need to lean on Bron and Kyrie for more O but they'd be a solid defensive team with cap to fill out the roster with a rim protector and depth possibly.

I'd rather have the D and flexibility. People keep referring to Miami's big 3 as what it could look like but it could also look like the Laker's big 3 last year that didn't work. Would Love (and Kyrie to a lesser extent) be less effective with less opportunity?

Because Bron gonna get his.

people in here devaluing love's game will be the first ones to say he cant hold it down as the MAN..which i agree he cant at all..so he has to be the second or 3rd guy...kyrie is going to have to adjust his game anyways with bron on the floor...i think love is the perfect fit ...with the ability to lure a big from the middle and open it up for bron with his 3pt shooting or pound the glass...the outlet passing and fast break aspect shawn spoke on makes him more enticing ..

I will give you personally a pass from that designation because I know your objections to this trade are mostly agenda & good ole fashioned hating based.

The rest of y'all need to smarten up or shut up because it's getting tiring to listen to already and we're a week into The Return.

Cleveland is a team with no post players and Love is a 25-year-old proven elite power forward, one of the leagues best rebounders, outlet passers and jump shooting big men.

To think that you would pass up a peak year or more of Lebron's peak years as he turns 30 and just returned to a franchise with no titles, all out of fear that a 19-year-old swing man yet to play a pro game might hurt you is the sorriest exercise in overthinking a team could do.

Luckily for the City of Cleveland, as long as Bron has opt-outs at the end of each season, Lebron is running the Cavaliers and he left those last two picks' names out that letter for a reason.

He's gonna make sure they get his Team USA teammate.

Try to do the deal without Wiggins but when that fails, as it will, they're gonna bite the bullet as they should.

You don't get players of that caliber without giving up something good and you don't hope that you can wait out a guy for a calendar year in hopes he will head to Cleveland in free agency.

Whatever Wiggins develops into by the time he reaches his prime doesn't matter, because Lebron/Kyrie/Love will have already won a title or two by then or something disastrous happened anyway.

i mean, we've all got our individual opinions, sure. but objectively? statistically? kevin love was one of the top 5 players in the league last year. even allowing for 'padding' and what not, you don't 'stat stuff' your way to those type of historic numbers unless you're really really fucking good. the idea that fans, media, and even actual nba execs have been balking on whether to include guys like klay thompson, brad beal, jimmy butler or an unproven 19 yr old andrew wiggins in an effort to acquire him is profoundly mind boggling to me.

if only one of the GMs with balls and vision, someone like morey or ainge or the dallas guys, had the necessary assets. they'd have gone out and sealed the deal on this guy months ago.

http://board.okayplayer.com/okp.php?az=show_topic&forum=21&topic_id=66263&mesg_id=66263&listing_type=search

^^^^^^^^^^^^^


Like for real. This is some over-thinking/bizarro world shit.....

I really, really like the idea of this backcourt of an all-star becoming a superstar and a rookie destined for good things combined with one of the five dudes who's handled expectations as humbly and professionally as anyone possibly could while also becoming the best since the best..

But you give that story up for the fantastic all-star, the best since the best and the best player in the league who hash't figured out how to lead yet. That player doesn't need to lead anymore, but gets to learn how, while you avoid having to teach NBA basketball to a guy who'll haunt you championships down the road.

The only reason I wouldn't trade Wiggins is I (the Cavs GM/Gilbert) happen to really like him as a person and don't want to put him in that situation, or LeBron openly discusses it in a negative way to myself or worse the media.

~~~~~~~~~
"This is the streets, and I am the trap." © Jay Bilas
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Hip Hop Handbook: http://tinyurl.com/ll4kzz

and what if Wiggins never becomes the player that Love is?


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Fuck tomorrow, LeBron's hourglass is belching sand

this is the same as baseball guys who overvalue prospects over a legitimate opportunity at a WS appearance

they'll be burning jerseys again...

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have Wiggins and Kyrie for possibly the next 10-15 years, with Love's style of play I could see him falling off in few years while you're still paying him max money

I can't be mad at that..

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Let's say Cleveland has two trade packages:

Package A: Wiggins, Thompson, and a 1st round pick

Package B: Waiters, Thompson, Bennett, and two first round picks

Package A is superior. But couldn't they leverage Package B into an inferior power forward who might improve their defense?
For example, couldn't Package B get Kenneth Faried or Al Horford?

Horford + Wiggins >>> Love + Waiters IMO.

That said, if it comes down to Wiggins for Love, then yes, the trade should be made. But unless Golden State comes off Klay, Minnesota will wait and Cleveland should make them wait to see exactly what they have in Wiggins.

Come to think of it, is there a realistic trade package anywhere in the league that does not involve Klay that tops Package B?

That's just what happens when any star (other than LeBron) joins a more talented team... you don't have to do EVERYTHING; you can either focus on what the team needs most or what you do best.

Love's weakest area is defense so as long as THAT isn't what a team needs most from him, he's a great addition because he can do just about anything else.

the two things i don't like about it:

a)we probably never will see the full potential of wiggins if he goes to minny. if wiggins struggles early in a shitty situation the people in here campaigning hard as hell for yes votes (lol @ dula high 5'ing everyone that agrees with him) will use that as some sort of validation but i think most ppl understand the excitement over his potential lies in the assumption he develops on a good team under the tutelage of bron. if wiggins goes to minny i think fans of basketball lose out overall

b)the addition of love will take shots away from kyrie and likely knock him down to 3rd banana. not that big a deal as he'll still probably get off. i was just interested in seeing what he could do on a good team in the spotlight , his contribution will be diminished with the additional all star and i could see there being questions about what he could have done like there were with bosh


the funny thing about all the debate is i think most ppl on both sides would agree with the following.....
EITHER team is a contender to come out the east
NEITHER team would be a clear cut favorite against a strong western team in the short term
props to bron for wanting to deal with the big 3 pressure/hate again and we'll finally see how kyrie and love will react to the daily microscope

> but i think most ppl
>understand the excitement over his potential lies in the
>assumption he develops on a good team under the tutelage of
>bron. if wiggins goes to minny i think fans of basketball lose
>out overall

Nobody thought Wiggins would be playing with Lebron. It was assumed that he would be a very high pick, likely going to a bad team. Prior to a couple weeks ago, nobody thought Wiggins and Lebron would be playing together in 2014-15, and people were still high on Wiggins' prospects.

which i think is at another level than it was pre bron
obviously if wiggins becomes a superstar in minny, then it's a clear win for them (probably is regardless) and even more question marks will be there if the cavs don't become champions multiple times

I can understand taking a backseat to Bron but Love? Nah. I think this is gonna be a problem unless Love is cool being the 3rd option.

the thing, you can deal with a guy that's a defensive liability if he's giving you 25-30 points a night, when they're give you 15-18ppg and giving up 20+ on the other end then you start to wonder what the point is.

not sure it's really comparable to bosh joining wade and bron but maybe yall right
of course limiting love offensively diminishes his value so i'm leaning to him maintaining a healthy output

i mean if we're going with the whole bird in the hand shit
love is a better player than kyrie right now. even his defensive rating is better (lol)
this ain't kyrie team anymore folks, lol. it's brons. kyrie role will be whatever bron tells gilbert it will be. let's relax and see what this becomes before any assumptions get made

anything my eyes

I still say they wouldn't

and if they don't win it this upcoming season (or next) then the trade will prove not to be as ideal as ppl believe it will...and by adding Love, it will limit the Cavs to go out and sign players in the future


The chances of them coming out of the east would definitely increase adding Love...but they were picked as the team to come out of the east even w/o Love or at least one of the top 3 teams in the east

A lineup of...
G/Kyrie
G/Waiters
C/Varajeo
F/Love
F/Bron

Looks like a team that won't be very good defensively

think they would be the favorites to win it all

Which a trade like that should mean - a title right away

share it Waiters, Bron, AND Love? People really think he's going to play the 3rd banana role behind Love? Do people realize how big that kid's ego is?

>A lineup of...
>G/Kyrie
>G/Waiters
>C/Varajeo
>F/Love
>F/Bron
>
>Looks like a team that won't be very good defensively

and lol@ all these people talking about Varajeo as a starter. He's averaged less than 30 starts a season for his entire 10 year NBA career now all of a sudden people think he's going to start all 82? or even half that?

Kyrie gonna handle the ball no matter what and he knows how to get open without it. hte idea of waiters being a 4th option is comedy, because i know enough of that dude now. he gotta go. that's a disaster waiting to happen.

to be the 3rd option so if he's giving you 15-18ppg instead of 25 is he really worth it?

elite rebounder - which prevents second opportunities on one end and creates them on the other.

can hit from outside - opening lanes for lebron and kyrie

one of the best passing bigs.

great in pick and roll - clutchtime execution and lots of scoring options, whether he runs it with lebron and kyrie spots up or vice versa.

he damn sure ain't gettin 25 with bron and kyrie, but his rebounding might even increase. 18 and 15 would be just fine.

might be forced to become even more perimeter-oriented in Cleveland, moving his game away from the basket is going to affect his rebounding numbers. You already see him trending that way in Minnesota.

Look Bosh's rebound numbers in Miami. Its not like he forgot how to rebound all of a sudden. He had to move his game away from the basket to accommodate Wade and Lebron.

and probably a couple other Western teams, but they'd definitely be favorites in the East now that the Pacers lost Lance.

the case, so what's the point of shitcanning your future for 1 or 2 eastern conference titles?

After 2 years of not winning a title with Love and Bron, Love and Kyrie's contracts on the books with little room to add anything else Lebron is going to bounce again. Hell it may happen after year 1 if he sees the writing on the wall.

but he obviously gets them closer to a title in the immediate future. it's a star big man joining Bron, why wouldn't people be getting excited about that?

we also don't know what Love and Kyrie's next contracts will look like, or the salary cap in a couple years for that matter, so I wouldn't jump to any conclusions about money

edit: just to be clear, I don't think this trade is a good idea, but there is logic behind it.

build a win now team......that likely wouldn't win now
yaye?

>build a win now team......that likely wouldn't win now
>yaye?
>

love this puts them over the top then go out and roll the dice

But

IMO that team still wouldn't be the favorites to win it all...and could they even beat a *healthy* Rose-led team?


>build a win now team......that likely wouldn't win now
>yaye?
>

PG can play Lebron to a draw, I think West and Hibbert would feast on Love and Varejao inside.

>IMO that team still wouldn't be the favorites to win it
>all...and could they even beat a *healthy* Rose-led team?


with Love though this shit is title or bust for Bron
and with the jordan stans looking for any leverage in postponing bron legacy eclipsing jorn...bron can't really afford any more finals Ls

Lebron is worried he'll be Larry Hughes. I'd be worried about that too.

blue-chip superstar? I dunno. I think he will be a player similar to Eddie Jones or Shawn Marion in terms of his star quality/impact. That's a very good player, but not a generational talent.

with love, they are heavy favorites in the east. reaching the finals is the first step to winning the title. would they need to shore up defensively? yes. can they attract players with this group? absolutely.

you don't not acquire a star because you don't have the role players in place. that's especially true when the outgoing players don't fill those roles either. this is just about the dumbest fucking argument i have ever heard, and that is saying something.

If Dieng is included...bye wiggy!

Otherwise I'd have reservations. Especially when they could probably get a more affordable option with Marz' package B suggestion. Denver would eat that deal alive.

Either way the team will be good but I don't think love will answer the issues those in favor of the trade are minimizing.

First time they're in a close playoff game, Kyrie gets beat off the Dibble and love doesn't rotate fast enough, shit will get real and you'll see that 'disgust' face from Bron. Now, a team that had locker room issues takes on a guy who's had issues with his front office and has a rep as being a dick to teammates. If things go sour, which would me anything less than conf finals this year, finals next year, then what? Because the expectations will rise with love. At least a year or 2 was expected with Wiggins. If it's gonna be the same span of time to it, I'd take my chances on Wiggins.

I wonder if this was a 19 year old Lebron, would people so feel the same. Because hindsight is a bitch. Players shouldn't GM. GM's should and if you can get a deal that satisfies your needs not including Wiggins, I'd do that first.

And let's not forget, this is the Cavs front office we are talking about not Miami's.

i saw someone mention it in a thread and now cats running with it
i guess broussard sources worth bout as much as a reply in a thread but most what i'm seeing is wiggins and waiter||bennett and some firsts for love and some kibble and bits
if they get dieng then yea you do that shit since it addresses the cavs main deficiency

Even if they don't get him, you don't think a similar player could become available? The bottom line is that you're not getting Love in free agency or the draft or a minor trade. You could get a banger through any of those avenues.

really the wolves have played this whole thing brilliantly by being patient and bluffing like they don't have to move love
cavs done already reneged on the wiggins part of the deal
dieng not being included ain't going block it at this point
would be nice if they got him though

cleveland cannot find another player his caliber.

the idea that cleveland had all the leverage was ridiculous. i do not think minnesota has *all* the leverage, especially as time passes, but they have slightly more.

It's possible he's in play, but are any other outlets reporting this? Is this the Sports equivalent of some weird True Detective fan theory?

> Is this the Sports equivalent of some weird
>True Detective fan theory?

as a bron fan i hope dude is included
just seemed like ppl were pulling a name out of their ass since the rumored pieces would leave the cavs with some holes

and Cavs undesirables is a solid deal. To the point where the Wolves will be pretty stupid to do it and not ask for Bennett too.

>To the point where the
>Wolves will be pretty stupid to do it and not ask for Bennett
>too.

best young player during the 2nd year of his rookie deal just for Wiggins and a bunch of guys the Cavs probably don't want anyway, because they've essentially drafted over them already.

until the trade deadline which they probably will

but it depends on how desperate the team getting him is too. they're not in a good position right now. if they can get wiggins they should jump at the chance.

contract and he WANTS that sign and trade so he can get the max money

I'd be okay with that deal too if Dieng is involved.

He has a very unique skillset and is clearly improving. Love + Dieng would be highway robbery imo.

fuck outta here.. that nigga gone.. and still gotta
prove himself

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If Love wants to play with Bron (and vice versa) as bad as we think he does, why won't the Cavs just be patient and wait til to scoop him up in Free Agency next year? I get it, Wiggins is a "prospect" but for arguments sake lets say he lives up to his hype/potential? Why make that trade right now to "maybe" win something this year? If I'm the Cavs, I chill and take my relative "lumps" this year and go after Love next year.

trading him

4-5 years from now, when Bron is looking at retirement, or at least slowing down a bit

Wiggins will just be hitting his stride and looking to take the reigns

CLE w/Love and Irving and no Bron = MIN

I'm not a big Love fan

comparison to Bosh aside, he did take TOR to the offs and a division title

Love can't even get MIN to a winning record

Isn't that worth it?

Especially given how many #1 picks don't become great.

Bron has maybe 2 or 3 year to remain physically dominant over the rest of the league and that clock has already started ticking..

Plus Cleveland has a 2 year lease. You gotta go for it now.

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one mintue, Danny Green the next then TP and then throw in Diaw and occasionally, Duncan

He looked worn down to me...particularly on the defensive side

Which is why at this point in his career he needs another young stud on D taking some of the pressure of having to always guard the other team's best player or hot hand...

Do what Pip eventually started to do for MJ when MJ hit his 30s...

I see him burdened on D if they trade Wiggins for Love because Kyrie/Love/Waiters and whoever else aren't any good on that end of the floor...and Bron gin be saddled once again w/having to do too much (on defense) to cover up the team's weaknesses.

>Bron has maybe 2 or 3 year to remain physically dominant over
>the rest of the league and that clock has already started
>ticking..
>
>Plus Cleveland has a 2 year lease. You gotta go for it now.
>
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>
>=======================================
>
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but at 30 after 4 str8 NBA finals trips the wear is starting to show. Bron is still in his prime but he's also 30, not 23..


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to beat the better teams out west in the finals so what's the point?

Man make the deal.

of the questions about that team going in were about Rondo and whether he was ready to run a championship team

KG didn't sign off until Ray signed off.

and that's where I'm a no

As someone posted above

this is a unique, and ideal situation for a #1 pick

having Bron in CLE is going to make the game alot easier for Wiggins

he's not coming to CLE and being asked to carry the team

his role is much more defined

and from what I've seen

I think he'll thrive

everything else with Love is an ?

I wouldn't trade Wiggins for a ?

what makes you think they can't win a chip without Love?

Bron carried a hobbled Wade (and Bosh for those that don't remember) to 4 straight finals and back to back chips

I don't see any reason to not expect chips in CLE w/Wiggins, IMO.

We've seen him play 0 pro games....0

And you're telling me a mutiple all star double double machine is a ?

just my opinion is all

as I said, IMO, I think he's the real deal

base, we're talking about trading for a complimentary player to run with Bron

IMO, Wiggins not only has the ability to play that role early in his career

and still have CLE in title contention

but also has the possiblity of becoming the franchise player when Bron slows down

and still have CLE in title contention

I don't see that with Love

all I see is a complimentary player to run with Bron

if he's asked to be more, CLE = MIN.

U got that backwards, homie....

analogy

2 #1 overall picks + a GOAT player

I would rather have that.

#1 picks work sometimes, don't work other times

A #1 pick is always a risk, no matter how great you think someone may be.

Could Wiggins become an all time great and help Cleveland in 5 years? Yes, but he also could be a total bust

Will Love joining Cleveland get them to the NBA finals where anything can happen multiple times at least? That's pretty much the minimum for the Love trade is a few finals appearances.

If you were doing something based on the best risk/success ratio you're going with Love, even if the ultimate ceiling may be lower. It's fine if you don't want to play the safer route, but you're talking like Wiggins is a sure thing and Love is a bust.

unless you mean one of those early 80s team
but i don't think anyone would say they sucked

Point is being a #1 pick doesnt promise anything

If Riley, RC, Phil Jackson, etc was the GM, Love would already be in Cleveland.

meanwhile big al just won 3rd team all nba and is still in his prime
and the celtics throwing up more tanks than no limit in '96
but that chip got ainge that good joe dumars life span
he good

a favor from his boy McHale

whatchu think teams play for? you think ainge giving up his ring and exec of the year award to get that eggplant nose nigga back? nobody in boston care about no damn al jefferson.

a title buys a GM or coach a DECADE. ainge did his job.

>whatchu think teams play for? you think ainge giving up his
>ring and exec of the year award to get that eggplant nose
>nigga back?

And also within a game of the finals the following year.

Yeah, that experiment was really lamentable.

...and there's no fucking way Kevin Love ends up there...

Honestly do you think that if you put 2013 Kevin Love with 2008 Paul Pierce and 2008 Ray Allen that they'd be the favorite to win a title? Or would that team give up 110 points per game?

in Lebron and with a PG who may end up being a top 5 PG.

ultimately bron holds the cards here and what do you think he wants?

Love doesn't have to sign an extension so even if he is traded he can still be a FA after this season.

Minnesota is trying to get what they can, but that doesn't mean Cleveland should jump on that now when they can just move Varejao this off season and some other contracts and trim the roster to just add him as a free agent.



I hope Cleveland is Cleveland and trades him though.

My Bulls can handle a jumpshooting PF easy.

He's probably going to be a disruptive defender right off the bat, and has the potential to develop into a superstar (the kind that leads his team to the 'offs, not the kind who puts up great numbers without winning). His rookie deal gives you the cap flexibility to fill out the roster with quality players.

Also, Love is still going to be around if Wiggins doesn't pan out, either via mid-season trade or free-agency next year.

if you're dan gilbert
you have to do what lebron instructs you to do
just like he did when he got big Z, shaq, mo willz, jamison, fired mike brown and all the other bron GM decisions

>if you're dan gilbert
>you have to do what lebron instructs you to do
>just like he did when he got big Z, shaq, mo willz, jamison,
>fired mike brown and all the other bron GM decisions

right, I've said before I think part of the reason Lebron left Miami was because Pat Riley wouldn't let Lebron and his peeps run shit like they get to do in Cleveland.

He didn't win until he went to a front office that did their job and made him do his.

Though I don't have faith in the Cavs FO, the better play is to hold your hand AND explore other trade options. You get a deal for a good PF and/or rim protector (Faried, Monroe, Josh Smith) on the table, we'll see how fast Minny comes off wiggins.

Love already said he wouldn't sign an extension in gstate so they not adding Klay.

If Love just says "I'm not signing an extension unless I go to Clev, otherwise I'll explore FAgency next summer" all this ends and Minny bows down. THAT'S the power play that needs to happen.

>If Love just says "I'm not signing an extension unless I go to
>Clev, otherwise I'll explore FAgency next summer" all this
>ends and Minny bows down. THAT'S the power play that needs to
>happen.

But he wants that full max extension that he can only get via a sign and trade so he has to play nice

He knows the cap is going up with the next CBA and isn't going to lock himself into a "low" contract. I expect him to sign a 2 year deal like Bron's. Unlike, say Bosh or Melo, he's young enough to be virtually guaranteed to command a mega-max two years from now.

wants to cash in now

yeah, I was wondering how this would work

with 'Rie's max and Bron's max

how do you add Love, and still fill out a chip roster in CLE?

I am a fan of Love and I think he is a top 10 player but his strengths double up the Cavs strengths and there are only so many shots to go around and only so many boards to grab. Adding 25 PPG + 25 PPG + 20 PPG scorers won't make them score 120 points a game, it turns to 25 PPG + 20 PPG + 18 PPG (like in Miami and that was an all time great offensive team). I'm sure a Love/Kyrie/Bron lineup is going to score at ridiculous efficiency since their offensive games complement each other so well, but I also know a Love/Kyrie/Anthony Bennett/Old Guy 2 (seriously are they gonna run out Mike Miller or Ray Allen for 30 minutes a game?) is going to absolutely bleed points on the other end. Didn't we see that with the Dwight/Kobe Lakers? Lebron can't cover up for 4 other guys forever and he was already starting to slow down on defense last season.

If there was a more obvious fit like a Serge Ibaka available, Wiggins would be gone yesterday for me, but this ain't fantasy basketball and there are two ends of the court to play. I mean a Love/Bron team would definitely be a contender but I'm still not sure I'd take them over the top Western Conference team.

I also like the "Wiggins is a #1 draft pick, he could bust!" argument. Sure he could bust, but from 2000 to 2012, the 10 of those 13 #1 picks became All Stars. From 1990 to 1999, 8 of those 10 became All Stars. The 80s, 9 of 10 of those guys became All Stars. So if a guy has a roughly 80% chance of being an All Star, he's a fungible asset now?

Bron can't defend everybody.

trying to reload in Miami... time will tell. Cleveland isn't done making moves..
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Marc Gasol

I say go after one of them in the off season or try and sign KLove as a FA in the off season

http://card.mygamercard.net/lastgame/rjcc.png

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

I will try to condense them here:

I am not opposed to Kevin Love on the Cavs.

they don't need to include Wiggins in any deal, just because Minnesota says so. Minnesota can lose Love in the offseason if he isn't traded for nothing. the Cavs don't need to use Wiggins to make salaries match.

Love would have been GONE if someone was THAT interested. with the money that went out for RFAs this offseason?

Cavs need more (elite) defense to win a title, and that's going to be harder to find with 3 dudes tied up in max salaries.

Showtime = Magic #1, Kareem MVP, Worthy #1. Great role players/deep bench.

They got like what 8 finals trips outta that? Extended Cap's career until he was 40. Won 5 rings

Heat = 3 legit stars, role players all around that fit. 4 yr run, one star aged out, one bailed and two had to dramatically change their game to make it work.

If the Cavs keep Wiggins, they can build a showtime and extend LeBron's career. If the get Love, they have a 2-3 yr window and limited flexibility. And most people don't think they'd win the title, just maybe the East.

than a Love/Kyrie/LeBron combo.

the reason the Heat could get away with the bigs they did was largely because of Bosh. Wade was a great defender. LeBron is LeBron.

so you could get "lesser dudes". Cavs have way more holes around them. that's gonna cost.

unless you're gonna gamble on LeBron being selfless about the salary, which really is about as believable as much as Peter Dinklage posterizing Dwight Howard about now.

that dude's taking Jordan deals for the rest of his career if he can manage it.

ability...

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/miamiheat/post/_/id/14003/dwyane-wades-historic-block-party-rolls-on

uh not if you watch both sides of the floor, lol
maybe '14 bosh and wade u could argue, though wade actually had a good season outside of the finals

both roster plays should make cavs fans happy
one just costs more, applies pressure, and kills flexibility
not rocket science

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He'll put up numbers but muphucka isn't going to swing the pendulum against elite competition b/c he's a one way player & doesn't draw double teams just like post-prime Chuck. Muphuckin' Dream couldn't even hide Chuck on defense....so I'm not so sure Sideshow Bob will make a difference.

If anything the Cavs w/ Love might turn into the 2004-04 Mavs when they had:

Dirk
Shimmy Walker
Jamison
Finley
Nash
.......all in their primes & got bounced in the 1st rd b/c they were a horrific defensive team. Let's not forget that the Spurs proved that Bath-Salts Bron by himself isn't going to win you more than a game against elite competition thus the Cavs w/ Love/Kyrie might not get bounced in the 1st rd ala the Mavs but I doubt they could compete w/ OKC/Clips/Mavs/Spurs/Bulls(w/ a healthy Rose).

I see what you are getting at but this is a weak ass conference by comparison. Even getting an old Barkley (who I'd argue wasn't as good as Love right today) would benefit the Cavs tremendously. He doesn't put them over the top, but at the top. Their next moves will be what could put them over. I don't get the people hyping "Salary Flexibility" either. For what? To sign a UFA? UFAs are generally sorry, teams don't let healthy, productive, winning players walk. So they keep Wiggins and overpay some guy who is older and wacker than Love. Seems pointless.

>I see what you are getting at but this is a weak ass
>conference by comparison. Even getting an old Barkley (who I'd
>argue wasn't as good as Love right today) would benefit the
>Cavs tremendously. He doesn't put them over the top, but at
>the top. Their next moves will be what could put them over. I
>don't get the people hyping "Salary Flexibility" either. For
>what? To sign a UFA? UFAs are generally sorry, teams don't let
>healthy, productive, winning players walk. So they keep
>Wiggins and overpay some guy who is older and wacker than
>Love. Seems pointless.

http://www.peachtreehoops.com/2014/6/10/5798076/nba-trade-rumors-al-horford-atlanta-hawks

Buried inside Zach Lowe's well written piece on potential landing spots for Lance Stephenson today was a little nugget regarding Atlanta's Al Horford and Danny Ferry shopping him at the trade deadline last season. Lowe previously mentioned this rumor on a podcast with Bill Simmons:

"No one can figure these guys out, which means Danny Ferry is doing his thing. They have cap flexibility and a good roster, though they dangled Al Horford at last year's trade deadline in a very targeted fashion, per sources around the league."

Naturally people picked up on this and when combined with Chad Ford's recent rumor about the Cavs looking at Horford it sparked some discussion. However, I think it is important to look at Lowe's quote closely and put it in context because I saw it get twisted up in a couple of places around the internet.

They were also thinking if they could get fair return and get it now for the playoffs probably. Who knows? Guys are getting shopped constantly and usually nothing comes of it. It's not personal unless it becomes very public, and it's usually not that serious. And if they do get Horford, what are they sending out? As with Hibbert, I feel like Wiggins is way too much to ship out, but they don't have any other real solid assets that I would take for my best or second best player if I am Ferry, Bird, et al.

You don't gotta listen to Bron and get who he wants to play with. Or try to make shortsighted moves and panic to win now. That's how you end up throwing money at/trading for/signing:
Larry Hughes
Mo Williams
Antawn Jamison
Wally Sczerbiak
Donyell Marshall
Ben Wallace
Drew Gooden

Bron ain't a GM or exec. Let him fall back and you build a team. Before you're locked into to some dumb shit.

>That's how you end up throwing money at/trading for/signing:
>Larry Hughes
>Mo Williams
>Antawn Jamison
>Wally Sczerbiak
>Donyell Marshall
>Ben Wallace
>Drew Gooden
>
>Bron ain't a GM or exec. Let him fall back and you build a
>team. Before you're locked into to some dumb shit.

granted, the reason they do some of those deals is because of the bullshit Paxson did in that one year they sucked with him there. that 2004 offseason was some absolute shit for the future.

I'm not mad at the Tawn and Mo pick ups, but Larry Hughes is the ultimate symbol of "Bron wants, Bron gets, team sucks" moves.

I'm continually bewildered by this community's attitude
towards Love, as if he has a communicable disease.

He's a proven commodity who helps Cleveland win not just right now,
but for a decade to come (which he'd likely do if Cleveland wins titles, which they should with a Kyrie/Love/Bron star trio).

Sure, it's understandable to not want to give up Wiggins, but if you
have to to get Love? I think you regret it if you don't. Big gamble to assume Wiggins becomes a perpetual all-star caliber player within 3 years.

-->

And you lost all credibility saying that team wouldn't make the Eastern Conference Finals.

We can put anything on that you want once the deal gets done.

wants max money for max years now

Love is back in Minnesota, but just a shittier, smellier, horribler version.

After each season in order to hold Gilbert's feet to the fire and maximize his earning potential, he's also going to try to lead the charge to abolish max deals in the next CBA once they have the TV figures.

He's gonna want to get a couple of those salaries like MJ got late in his career after carrying the league for years and being relatively underpaid.

His intent is going to be staying in Cleveland, Love being there only will add to that.

And Lebron is not going to find a better second/third player tandem then Cleveland if they land Love.

Let's say flip goes after the warriors offer and Love re-signs. Then what? A lotta of eggs in this just get Kevin Love basket. Do they just go back to the bron, kyrie, and that maturation of the young guys?




----------------------------
Same as it ever was!

http://www.sheridanhoops.com/2014/07/18/sheridan-structure-of-lebrons-new-contract-empowers-him-as-king-of-the-cavs/

Sheridan: Structure of LeBron’s New Contract Empowers him as King of the Cavs

July 18, 2014 by Chris Sheridan

LeBron James can play the rest of his career on the equivalent of one-year contracts. It has exposed a loophole of sorts in the CBA while making him the most powerful man in the NBA.

Nobody saw this coming, but when James signed a two-year deal with Cleveland and had an opt-out included after Year One, the entire power structure of the NBA changed. If the Cavs don’t keep him happy, he’ll leave — that is the implication that goes along with having the best player in the game so uniquely empowered under the structure of his new deal.

Two years from now, when James becomes an unrestricted free agent again, he’ll be able to reap the financial rewards of signing after the NBA’s new television deals are cut. If the money paid by ESPN, Turner Sports and Fox Sports (yes, they NBA could have three TV partners instead of the current two, following the trail blazed by the NFL) is double what is being paid under the current deal, the salary cap will rise accordingly.

If, for argument’s sake, if the salary cap rises to $100 million, James would be eligible for a new contract with a maximum salary of 35 percent of the cap. With 7.5 percent annual raises, James would be eligible for a new five-year contract with salaries of $35 million in Year 1, then $37,626,000, $40,250,000, $42,875,000, $47,550,000.

That adds up to $201.5 million.

Or, he could keep doing two-year contracts with one-year opt outs. That would imperil his ability to lock up a nine-figure deal, but it would keep his empowerment structure in place.

You thought the Decision II brought some finality to James’ moving van options? Wrong. We haven’t even begun to scratch the surface of what James can do by being empowered with a player option after Year One of his next deal … and the deal that comes after that … and the one after that. With a player option. If he declines to exercise that option, he immediately would become an unrestricted free agent. It is a heavy hammer to hold, an enormous position of power that would give James the ability to influence each and every roster decision the Cavs make for the next four years. (Under CBA rules, if James signed a five-year deal he could not have a player option or an Early Termination Option until after the fourth year. A series of two-year contracts would keep him empowered the way he is now).

The Cavs’ evolving stance on the availability of Andrew Wiggins in a potential Kevin Love trade is just the beginning.

Clearly, James is trying to influence Cleveland’s decision making.

Imaginary conversation between LeBron and Dan Gilbert:

LBJ: “I want Kevin Love.”
DG: “We can’t get him, because the Timberwolves want Andrew Wiggins.”
LBJ: “Then give them Wiggins.”
DG: “But Wiggins is 19 and could become the best player in the league down the road.”
LBJ: “When exactly?”
DG: “It might only take four or five years.”
LBJ: “You don’t have four or five years. If you don’t make this trade, I’ll walk next summer. The Knicks and Lakers will both have enough cap space for a max contract. You want me to walk?”
DG: “No.”
LBJ: “Then make the damn trade.”

What might a Wiggins-for-Love trade look like?

Love makes $15.72 million in the upcoming season, and Wiggins will eventually sign for $5.5 million. So the salaries do not come close to matching, but the Cavs and Wolves could get a third team to broker the trade so that other players would not have to be included. Philadelphia is the most logical broker because the Sixers have only $28 million in committed salaries for next season, giving them a whopping $35 million in cap room.

The Cavs could conceivably offer Wiggins, Anthony Bennett and three No. 1 draft picks in 2015 (their own, Memphis’ No. 1 and Miami’s No. 1) for Love.

Flip Saunders would be able to turn to his owner and his fan base and say he got five No. 1 picks, including the top overall picks from 2013 and 2014. Dan Gilbert could turn to his fan base and explain that he made a deal that will allow the Cavs to immediately compete for a title with a starting five of James, Love, Kyrie Irving, Anderson Varejao and Dion Waiters.

LeBron would be placated — and a placated King is a happy King.

And one year from now, LeBron could again go to Gilbert and make whatever roster demands he wished.

Gilbert would have no choice but to comply, because Gilbert would not be the most powerful member of the Cleveland Cavaliers organization.

That title would belong to King James, who already is wielding his power.


Read more at http://www.sheridanhoops.com/2014/07/18/sheridan-structure-of-lebrons-new-contract-empowers-him-as-king-of-the-cavs/#rUGvb5S5axPfIRlv.99

contracts narrative lasted all of a week?
bwhahahahaha
like i said in that other thread...uh guys there is a 1 yr player option on that thang
bron want that flexibility
i like that he has gilbert by the balls, essentially running the franchise at this point
but he can't get carried away with his yes men cosigning every lil idea he has

I mean barring Gilbert making Lebron run with a squad of guys from the local Y (minus the Marine, of course), him skipping town again would be a PR mess.

Dude is all about legacy at this point. He knows won't catch Jordan on the 6 for 6, perfect in the Finals thing. He has an outside shot of catching up on total ring count, but he also knows he already has two disastrous Finals under his belt (I don't think most people hold his first Cavs Finals apperance against him). His chance for a legacy is to be that local boy who made good and brought a title to Ohio finally. What, is he gonna skip town at the first sign of adversity again? I mean the one year deal thing does give him a ton of leverage with the franchise but they have to have some foresight here.

we dont know that any changes to the salary structure would benefit him that much more staying than leaving. he wanted the flexibility for a variety of reasons.

All his leverage will go out the door and he won't have the security of a long term deal. And it'll compromise him being able to command top dollar on that TV deal. The deal should have been 4 years with a player option after yr 2. Granted he's rich and doesn't NEED the dough but he's short sighted as a player. An org has to look at now AND the future.

Bron loses ANYTHING skill wise in the next 2-3 seasons and Love ain't picking up the slack accept on scoring and he'll be nearing 30.

Wiggins + Kyrie could carry a 'lesser' Brom in 3-4 seasons on both sides of the ball.

No official offer including either presently exists.

@APkrawczynski: Andrew Wiggins has not been offered for Kevin Love. Klay Thompson has not been offered for Kevin Love. This is where things stand.

@APkrawczynski: Talking to execs out here in Vegas, almost universal that IF wolves get Wiggins for Love that is as good a deal as they could make

@APkrawczynski: Wiggins is still a possibility if LeBron tells the Cavs "Get me Love." What LeBron wants, LeBron gets. That's what Wolves are counting on.

@APkrawczynski: @TyTyBuckets the only thing that matters is there is no offer. If there's no offer, there can be no deal

Either to Cleveland or Golden State. Or wherever. Just end the speculation.

At the end of the day, there's no definitive way to prove a team would be better off one way or the other when it's all said and done-- even if titles happen. So I just want it to be over at this point, lol.

This is just me being an old fart though, probably.

the season is months away and love is under contract. sooner than later, sure, but not immediately.

@Probballdraft: Everyone acting like a deal for Love is imminent should pump the brakes. Wolves waiting, not rushing. Hopeful he reconsiders staying.

flip saunders jedi mind tricking this whole thing

Because Flip wants to win now and thinks Klay is more ready to lead a win now team.

Hard to tell what is and what isn't a smokescreen.

Can shoot and defend, plus we have seen him a little subdued due to being in development and not being the No. 1 option in GS.

i'm back, remember? he mine.

and by all rights, they should have had him. The one time Chris Grant doesn't Chris Grant.

Wiggins isn't going anywhere.

If they start the season together and Wiggins balls out and Bron takes a liking to him, Wolves are done. Lose all leverage (though the only thing they have is the Warriors offer as that). G-State would win as they could get Love minus Klay. But I'm sure other teams will eventually offer up something good too so it could work out for both teams.

Personally, I think the Cavs have to at least see the team in action.

a market for him.

Is saying that the Cavs have made an official offer.....Wiggins, Bennett and a 2015 pick...

That sounds more reasonable than giving up 3 quality players AND a draft pick....

Anyway you look at it, shit is about to get interesting....

Don't matter at this point....With Broussard it could go either way...lol

*Assuming Love is ALL the Wolves are giving up in the deal

I'm tweeting KLove telling him to avoid Cleveland at all costs. He seems like a great fit with Bay Area culture.

Dan Gilbert needs to step in and veto the deal. This team is built to run and that is the exact opposite of what Kevin Love forces us to do. What if the cap only goes up by five million in the future? You can't have three players on max deals and expect to field a competitive team.

>I'm tweeting KLove telling him to avoid Cleveland at all
>costs. He seems like a great fit with Bay Area culture.
>
>Dan Gilbert needs to step in and veto the deal. This team is
>built to run and that is the exact opposite of what Kevin Love
>forces us to do. What if the cap only goes up by five million
>in the future? You can't have three players on max deals and
>expect to field a competitive team.



You know nothing about Kevin Love

Dion will hook on him the first time he mentions his name in a press conference. I can't give up Wiggins in any deal.

KLove should tank this deal by coming out and naming the cities he'll play in. I want KLove to go on a tour of the yay area. SAVE YOURSELF KEVIN LOVE.

What if the cap only goes up by five million
>in the future? You can't have three players on max deals and
>expect to field a competitive team.

If Wiggins is the real deal, it won't be long after that bump that he needs a max deal, too. LeBron has shown some willingness to sacrifice in the past and if not, oh well, make the Harden type trade then when you're forced to. The organization also showed a willingness to have a high payroll in Bron's first stint. I don't see that being a compelling argument, you're talking about essentially inane speculation about a couple years down the line versus going all in right today.

Just because they don't run the floor like the Mailman or a young Amare doesn't mean they don't key the break. Bill Walton, Wes Unseld, Tim Duncan, Kevin Love, these are all relatively slow/stiff players for the fast break but their teams often ran like hell. Why? Rebounding and outlet passing.

Every time he opens his mouth it is an instant L.

... Especially against trolls.

love does tons of it.

face it, you got caught lacking some basic knowledge. i love the "i am always right" response. as if anyone is, but it's particularly comical coming from you. perhaps you calculated the 100 percentage by using Quick Math?

not trading them away. I think it would be good for the league and I think they'll still be extremley successful without Love. I don't see why they don't give it a minute, for fucks sake.

wiggins should not sign his name on that contract. he should release a statement via the press that while everyone is looking out for their interests no one is looking out for him. he should also add that he wants to go somewhere with a strong corp structure and basketball system in order to develop his skills as a basketball player. he should then list teams that he would be willing to sign with, chicago, detroit, philly, boston, charlotte, atlanta, n.o., okc, san an, dallas, golden state, portland, miami, oops almost forgot tdot. he should also add that he is no longer interested in playing with cleveland and that he would not sign with them. he should then add if or until that happens he'd be in europe looking to negotiate a three year deal (with no early outs) and will return when he is off the rookie pay scale, ala mitotic. then he should add a deadline whatever it would be for him to sign and begin working with a eurpean team.

but that is just me. he could play in europe work on his j and playing in a system.

i usually dislike people who overturn the draft, kobe, elway, eli, steve francis.

no

opportunity to renegotiate their deals or drop me (that would be in the letter as well, kinda forcing their hands as well as giving them options), europe is a good market and he would be the first NBA number pick to do it. i am sure their would be enough press. he wouldn't be going to some hole in the wall team. he should go somewhere with former nab players or known for developing players for the nba. another reason for the 3 year contract show a euro club you won't just up and leave when the nba came knocking.

adidas is a european company anyway. he'd be 22.

so what would be smarter? i should add he should wait till the "rumors" firmed up and send somebody in to the cleveland organization and let them know what his position is, before going to the press.

the organization is dysfunctional in a way that no 19 year old is going to fix. why not take control of the situation? it is logical. everybody is looking out for self. wiggins needs to do the same. why should he sit by while lebron james, gilbert, Klove, flip and whoever else decides the next 4-6 years for him? he did that once with the draft. should he really have to go through that again? he is also in a unique position, he has leverage. should he give up what little power he has? lebron did it why shouldn't he?

ion't know but i probably would want someone on my team/in my circle to at least raise my proposal. or else i need to find a new agent cause he/she is already sleeping on the J-O-B.

can his agent get on the horn and call up teams to see if it could go down? he isn't signed to the cavs, so would it be tampering? he should be. shoot other GMs should get on the horn, and "tell him don't sign that, we got you lets try and make it happen."

i know if i was a GM i woulda contacted silver and been like "he ain't signed can i contact him, bout something?" or i would get one of my players to reach out to him.

>can his agent get on the horn and call up teams to see if it
>could go down?

>i know if i was a GM i woulda contacted silver and been like
>"he ain't signed can i contact him, bout something?" or i
>would get one of my players to reach out to him.

there's no way either of these things is allowed.

>wiggins should not sign his name on that contract. he should
>release a statement via the press that while everyone is
>looking out for their interests no one is looking out for him.
> he should also add that he wants to go somewhere with a
>strong corp structure and basketball system in order to
>develop his skills as a basketball player. he should then list
>teams that he would be willing to sign with, chicago, detroit,
>philly, boston, charlotte, atlanta, n.o., okc, san an, dallas,
>golden state, portland, miami, oops almost forgot tdot. he
>should also add that he is no longer interested in playing
>with cleveland and that he would not sign with them. he should
>then add if or until that happens he'd be in europe looking to
>negotiate a three year deal (with no early outs) and will
>return when he is off the rookie pay scale, ala mitotic. then
>he should add a deadline whatever it would be for him to sign
>and begin working with a eurpean team.
>
>but that is just me. he could play in europe work on his j and
>playing in a system.
>
>i usually dislike people who overturn the draft, kobe, elway,
>eli, steve francis.

I agree that he shouldn't sign his name on the contract. Do NBA players get paid in the preseason? I'd play sparingly in preseason games if that's the case. There's no rush for him to sign his contract. Let KLove come into Wolves camp and hope GSW gets anxious to trade. He's in a far better situation staying in Cleveland than going to Minnesota where there is a logjam at his position.

You're talking like Wiggins is Lebron right now. Lebron could pull that move. We'll see but the general consensus is he needs development time. Bron been ready since his first preseason game.

needs development. are the timberwolves the team that is going to get that done?

far as him not having the leverage why doesn't he? he is the number one pick? kobe wasn't nor was he ready straight out the gate. elway and eli were number one, and steve francis was two. i believe it worked out pretty well for those guys on the p.r. level and for their careers well cept stevie.

"p.r. wise" i think this is different than pouting about the draft. i think we can all agree he is getting dicked in this situation, right? i don't think it would come to him leaving anyway. he'd just be forcing a three way to deal to be made. i don't think he could play for cleveland if it came to that though, but why should that be high on his priority.

professional leagues in places like Russia and others had all this major bread and were going to start luring NBA stars over because they could go beyond the NBA salary cap and rules but it ended up only being a couple of mediocre level players like Josh Childress and that theory quickly died but it would be interesting if a dude like Wiggins said "fuck it, I'm going overseas"

There is just enough money in those leagues to be dishing out the big dollars. Even Childress's sweetheart deal ended prematurely.

It's more of a threat in the NHL, and even then there is only one league that can pay the money. They have and will continue to have a lo of difficulty attracting players, though they have gotten some notable ones (Jagr previously, currently Kovalchuk and Radulov).

I don't see foreign leagues seriously threatening the NBA or MLB, and really not even the NHL.

With the gamble being at $5 milly still giving you TONS of wiggin room.

the scoring will drop, & his defense isn't as good as Bosh's (even though Bosh improved tremendously in Miami, I don't think Love has it in him to get beyond decent, which would be a big upgrade) BUT on offense he'd be a better version of Bosh.

he's a much better 3 point shooter & a great rebounded. If Love just focused on getting boards & shooting 10 3s a game, he'd get up to 20/15 easy

http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/07/22/report-bulls-making-push-to-trade-for-kevin-love/

Their offer is better than the Cleveland offer. If they toss in a pick that should get the deal done. It's about time the Bulls swung for the fences.

The word "strong" is thrown around too loosely these days.

he's an anti wiggins-for-love cavs fan.

Jimmy Butler is a solid star/star-in-the-making who, given the minutes, can blossom into an all-star. You see dem 'tangibles?

Taj Gibson brings defense and playoff experience. All Chicago has to toss in is a draft pick and this should seal the deal.

That is a far better than offer than fat fuck Dion, Bennett's allegedly bust ass, and Wiggins. We don't know how good Wiggins is. He could tear his achilles and never reach star status. Those Bulls players can win now versus the development time the Cavs players need. Wolves don't need prep time they need room to operate and win.

Of course, Golden State deads all of this by offering Klay LIKE THEY SHOULD'VE DONE IN THE FIRST FUCKING PLACE.

So they could always fall back on "he has the *potential* though."

Taj doesn't even have that. He is what he is: a fine basketball player.

This is actually more Hinrich cysage than Tyrus. They thought Hinrich was a beast and was on the way up...he was 27 and maxed out.

Tell that to Minny, homie...They are the team that has been calling about Taj/Butler, ect...

You been riding this kid for the longest...lol....But he continues to improve his game and fell short of that sixth man award...Nobody is calling this kid a superstar.

And I'm willing to bet that any package would be more than just Taj and Butler...

Ya dig?

Taj was near maxed out coming into the league.

>Taj was near maxed out coming into the league.


Whether he's a kid or an old man he played well...Very well actually. I've been on record many times, though. If Minny wanted to make that deal I would drive Taj to the airport myself....

But my point stands. Minny was calling the Bulls about Taj before the Splash Brother/Wiggins talk started to pop off...They must have had some kind of interest in the "kid"....

But it's all moot. Love is going to the Cavs..Bron will get his superstar big....

you gonna get all the taj you want this season. and i'll be here smiling.

>you gonna get all the taj you want this season. and i'll be
>here smiling.


Was u smiling when he was a sixth man finalist after shitting on dude like he stole your porn stash?

And really U r mixing your apples with oranges. I may be of the minority amongst Bulls fan who would pull the trigger on a deal involving Taj, Mirotic, and McBuckets. There's no over-valuing of Taj, at least when it comes to me.

He's a strong defensive minded big who can give u some scoring on any given night. Nothing more, nothing less....

dogg, all i said was 8 and 5 wasn't worth no damn 10 a year. he earned that contract after putting up 8 and 5. and 13 and 7 ain't worth 10 a year either.

and he 30. enjoy.

Wilbon on PTI talking like Taj & McBuckets for Love is too rich for his blood.

I can't with these people.

Taj couldn't get picked out a lineup walking down Figueroa even tho he went to college at USC, ask some of these Bull Fans & they'll act like Taj Gibson gets more love in Chicago than Kanye West.

>Wilbon on PTI talking like Taj & McBuckets for Love is too
>rich for his blood.
>
>I can't with these people.
>
>Taj couldn't get picked out a lineup walking down Figueroa
>even tho he went to college at USC, ask some of these Bull
>Fans & they'll act like Taj Gibson gets more love in Chicago
>than Kanye West.

I get the jokey one-liners and all, Bomb...But I think such reservations come from the Bulls having a strong defensive identity. SOME fans are spooked that getting Love AND giving up a Taj/Butler, ect would create a swizz cheese defense and drive Thibs insane...lol...It's less about over-valuing players and more about putting together the right package to ensure that we stay strong on D...

But of course I've been on record as saying that I would give up Taj, McBuckets, and Mirotic (that's the Bulls' trade proposal that's being thrown out there...) without a second thought...I would help all three pack their bags...lol...Of course I'm of the minority on that thinking on this board...


But this of course is all moot. Because we all know Bron is going to get his gift...Love to the Cavs is happening.

>lol...Of
>course I'm of the minority on that thinking on this board...
>

but in actuality, only two Bulls fans on these boards disagreed with you so far, as I recall

others just don't feel like they need to have an opinion one way or the other because of this:
>
>But this of course is all moot. Because we all know Bron is
>going to get his gift...Love to the Cavs is happening.

like multiple folks (including you) already pointed out, these rumors are just that, rumors, leaked by either Bulls' or Wolves' FOs to try and force Cleveland into giving up Wiggins. so there's really no point in wasting time figuring out if you like the trade or not as a Bulls supporter.

but just for shits and giggles...to me that trade would've made a lot more sense before the Bulls got Gasol and amnestied Boozer. at this point, it seems like it would leave us with a somewhat awkward roster (not to mention that the Bulls could offer a more attractive package back then). however, I still think I'd do it if it was a real possibility.

So I won't even bother getting into all the defensive identity stuff for a team that's never been anywhere or won anything.

Taj Gibson is 29 & coming off his first year scoring over like 8 points and 6 boards in a damn season, please FOH with this silliness.

>So I won't even bother getting into all the defensive
>identity stuff for a team that's never been anywhere or won
>anything.
>
>Taj Gibson is 29 & coming off his first year scoring over like
>8 points and 6 boards in a damn season, please FOH with this
>silliness.

Again...your snark is misplaced, homie...lol

It's not like Gibson was deemed the centerpiece of that package...Gibson, Mirotic, D. McBuckets, draft picks..That's what the Bulls was officially offering...

I don't see that package any worse than what Cavs are offering....

That other deal with Jimmy Butler was among the names that Minny were acquiring about...

But Love wants to play with Bron....So that's going to happen...

>

Jacking up the market of a division rivals trade is exactly what you want to do in this situation

CLE can't tell if Chi is bluffing, etc. and GarPax can ride this shit show as much as you want to Cleveland.

Try us fuckers.

Yes, I'm looking at you, Concrete Chuck.

Having good individual rebounds numbers DOES NOT make you a "valuable" defensive player on the glass. It just makes you good at ball hawking. You know has had consistently good rebound numbers, but has always sucked ass? JJ Hickson. JJ Hickson is an extremely minus defensive player, just sucks. It doesn't matter what it says in the boxscore, he's a turnstile, he doesn't protect the rim, and all he really does is take the ball away from his teammates. He offers NEGATIVE value on the defensive end, it doesn't matter what his individual rebound stat is. It's no coincidence that the Trailblazers got immediately better (by quite a bit) when they replaced JJ Hickson with Robin Lopez, despite the fact that Robin Lopez offered less in the way of points and rebounds than JJ Hickson.

The thing is, there's only a certain number of rebounds to go around. This is the whole Shane Battier thing -- even if his rebound numbers suck, team rebounding goes up while he's in the game, so doesn't that make him a good rebounder? It's not just about securing the ball, it's about boxing your guy out. It's also, not coincidentally at all, why LaMarcus Aldridge just posted a career high in rebounds playing alongside Robin Lopez instead of JJ Hickson. LaMarcus didn't suddenly transform over the summer, he just got an unselfish teammate that was willing to box out while LA grabbed the ball.

All that to say -- the idea that Kevin Love somehow shores up the defensive end because his individual rebounding #s are good is asinine (never mind that rebounds only occur when you force a miss, which Kevin Love is below average at). Kevin Love is a strong individual rebounder, sure, but that doesn't give you a distinct advantage on that end. You still need other guys responsible in boxing out alongside him, and you still need a team defense in front of him that forces the miss.

And after all that, the REAL strength of Love's rebounding is that he's good (well, great, really) at ball-hawking, and then he's a great outlet passer, which would be an OFFENSIVE benefit because it would allow Cleveland to break. Of course, Wiggins could be a big benefit in this regard as well, but the if you want to paint Love's boards as a positive I would focus on the offensive impact on it, not the negligible to non-existent "defensive" impact of being able to eat glass.

Because it can't be argued. It wouldn't.

The argument seems to be that the offense would be so overpowering that finding defensive pieces later would get the job satisfactorily done. Love rebounds, outlet to Bron/Ky, quick buckets. Often. That seems to be the central argument-- three incredibly gifted offensive players should be able to trump whatever other teams throw at them.

I can't imagine any arguments that the team D improves with Love. It's got nowhere to go but up from last year, so maybe that's an argument-- but no one would argue that a team with Love on the floor is better defensively than one with Wiggins on the floor. It's an indefensible position, and it seems like an irrelevant position to the argument the pro-Love collective is making.

offensive player that takes a lot of shot on a losing team. On a winning team where he's probably the 3rd option taking a lot less shots, scoring less points and still being a defensive liability, is he really that valuable?

It could be that Love raises them from awful to just average on that end, but the three seasons Love has been a full time starter and not hurt (2011, 2012, 2014), the Timberwolves have ranked 16th all 3 years in Defensive Rebound Rate. Definitely supports the rebound stealer theory over him making them significantly better than the competition at defensive rebounding.

Is the argument here that a great rebounder should make his teammates better rebounders? That is a fresh one.

LaMarcus Aldridge was exactly as good of a rebounder in 2014 as he was in 2013, but his rebounding numbers jumped to a career high, improving upon his career average by something like 4+ rebounds per game. Yeah, sure, you could try to say he somehow transformed in the summer, but the truth is simply Robin Lopez joined the team. I even saw a reporter ask LA (in a post-game interview or something) what changed, why the big jump in rebounding, and without hesitation LA replied, "Robin Lopez." LA wouldn't give himself credit in any way, because he's an unselfish player who recognizes his teammates are just as key to his success as anything else.

So with regards to Love, the fact that he individually has good #s is largely meaningless. Like I said, you can argue offensive impact. It's definitely meaningful there. But as far as defensive impact goes, individual rebound #s tells you basically nothing.

does Love's rebounding--both defensive and offensive--make him an asset to your team? Does it get you more possessions? I guess that was two questions.

You are describing him as some Dirk or Carmelo Anthony like rebounder, a guy who sags and drifts. That is not his game, sorry.

does Love's rebounding--both defensive and offensive--make him an asset to your team? Does it get you more possessions?

You are describing him as some Dirk or Carmelo Anthony like rebounder, a guy who sags and drifts. That is not his game, sorry.

Love's a strong offensive player, that's not being debated. His ability to secure the ball and outlet is good for a transition offense (which should be a strength of this Cleveland roster). His positioning and strength also makes him a nuisance on the offensive glass. He will definitely expose weak defensive rebounding teams, which is a strong part of his offensive game.

But defensively? He's slow and lacks verticality. He is a soft spot in his team's defensive scheme. His personal ability to secure the glass in case of a miss does nothing to make up for that, and his high individual # in no way indicates he would make Cleveland a superior rebounding team with his presence alone. Again, the JJ Hickson example -- JJ has strong rebounding #s, but JJ also sucks and makes any team he's on worse. JJ's rebounding #s represent nothing but his determination to grab loose balls to fill out his box score. It doesn't matter what his average is, he hurts his team on the defensive end.

i.e. individual rebound #s tell us very little (or more accurately "nothing" or "completely mislead) about the value of a player on the defensive end.

I feel like you can get as many guys not named LeBron and Kyrie as you want. The trade would get done overnight. No one would question it.

Now Dirk's a better overall player than Love, but still a stretch 4 who is a knockdown shooter who isn't known for playing much defense (Dirk got better defensively later in his career) and doesn't protect the rim. Love is a better rebounder and passer, while Dirk gets the nod on offense and on-ball defense.

Love is a superstar and makes the Cavs better than they are with Wiggins and the rest of the guys being offered or with anybody the Cavs could get for those guys.

doing things like 1) winning first round series consistently 2) dropping damn near 40/20 on prime tim/fading admiral in an elimination game 3) sweeping prime k.g. 4) making the western conference finals. teams like the kings and spurs bested him, not teams like the suns and nuggets.

let's not get it twisted...the only knock on dirk was people didn't believe he had it in him to carry a team to a title. and we hated on him HARD for just that one question. but he and his team made adjustments and answered that *one* question. even if it did take him going absolutely bonkers and an opponent's collapse to get there.

the questions with love are a lot more numerous.

Do you think Love would have magically missed the playoffs with a prime Finley and entering-his-prime Nash?

made the playoffs

shit put kevin love with them 809 year olds and monta this year and he probably woulda fucked it up.

the MVP that year was Tim Duncan, who was only 26 at the time but say he was 30. Do you trade unproven 18 year-old Lebron for prime Dirk to play with Duncan?

But 18 year old Lebron to 19 year old Wiggins isn't a fair comparison either, Lebron tops out in the MJ/Magic range with a much higher floor while Wiggins tops out at Paul George/Pippen with a bigger bust factor. I do think Dirk is a far better player in his prime than Love though.

As LeBron or Tim Duncan.

Why didn't you ask about Shaq or Wilt Chamberlain for chrissakes?

Wiggins is definitely the next level down. He is not Kenyon Martin either, but he's not close to the same level of untouchable as an every-ten-years kind of guy. MAYBE he will be on a level with an every-five-years type, like Chris Webber.

Lebron would be good but not many people thought he was 4+MVP good although most people will probably say different now.

Outside of maybe Duncan and Shaq, probably the most touted in the last 25 years.

I do think Dirk was better than Love, but relative to the best at their position at the time, they are at least comparable if not equivalent.

Dude put up a 50/40/90 season and came damn close to it two more times when his best teammates were guys like Jason Terry and Josh Howard. Not scrubs but not exactly the Big 3 either. Dirk is one of the most efficient offensive players of all time while being a #1 option his whole career without a ton of offensive help (besides young Nash but Dirk's best years came after anyway).... I know he gets some hate on here but that's just crazy.

I don't think it'd be any more than five points and probably closer to 2-3.

supposedly

Taj,
Mirotic
and McBuckets

for Love

Lose depth for pf. When you just signed a pf.

selling the dream of mcbuckets summer league teh way morey sold Kings on Donte Greene after he dropped 50

>Lose depth for pf. When you just signed a pf.


I'm glad u r not our GM....lol


So u mean to tell me that we would be trading an unproven college player who may or may not be as good as Chandler Parsons, an overseas player who may or may not be the next Toni Kukoc...And a 30 year-old PF who is a damn good defender off the bench and a player who was thisclose to winning a 6th Man of Year, but who you could find a replacement for?

I would make that trade in a heartbeat given that we don't even know if McBuckets and Niko will even see significant playing time in the next two years....

Under the constraints of realism.

I think more of Jimmy's potential than I do of Taj's.

to replace Love

Either the source is incorrect or the Bulls made the offer to get Cleveland to give up more.

They promised Mirotic, who've they've been wanting for 3+ years, that he wouldn't get traded when they signed him and they just signed McBuckets to his rookie contract. Not to mention their largest offseason acquisition was a PF.

If the Bulls were hesitant to give up Taj to get Melo, no way they're offering Taj, Jimmy Butler, and two rookies they've had their eyes on for a long time to land Love.

I'm calling bullshit.

... then someone in the front office has lost their motherfucking mind.

I don't think that was ever the case with the Bulls.
The real question: Would Melo want to play on a team without Taj?
It's just like the Deng for Kobe talk that always seems to rear its head in reference to the Bulls front office.
Kobe wanted to play WITH Deng, not on a depleted Bulls team.
I think the same goes for Melo.

>... then someone in the front office has lost their
>motherfucking mind.


That's not what happened....It was Melo who gave that stipulation...He wanted to play with a defensive minded PF...

Bulls would have happily driven Taj to the airport to get Melo...lol

For the record, I think most knowledgeable Bulls fans were content with the FO's pursuit of Melo. They did everything they could to land him without preemptively gutting their roster. They offered Melo several options, one of which was less money and Taj stays.

Taj for Love is a no brainer. Taj, Mirotic, and McDermott is a great deal for Chicago as well. I just don't think it's legitimate because the Bulls just signed Mirotic and McDermott, and it would hurt their image to future free agents to trade Mirotic after giving their word that they wouldn't.

Hopefully this will get Golden State to include Klay Thompson or force Cleveland to give up more assets. Either way it's a good move by the Bulls.

>Taj for Love is a no brainer. Taj, Mirotic, and McDermott is a
>great deal for Chicago as well. I just don't think it's
>legitimate because the Bulls just signed Mirotic and
>McDermott, and it would hurt their image to future free agents
>to trade Mirotic after giving their word that they wouldn't.


Nah...this is a pros, homie. No one would look badly at the Bulls pulling off such a trade except Niko...

It's just business....

The Bulls have done a good job of adding shooters and depth to a team that could perform well in a weak eastern conference. They'd sacrifice both of those things if they were seriously going for Love.

Remember kids. If you find yourself hesitating on whether or not you trade an unknown commodity to land a known commodity, seek immediate help....

I keep hearing all this talk about my Bulls' depth. And on the real, we will undoubtedly have the ability to throw out bodies on any given night. It was that power of the Bench Mob those years that helped guide Chicago to some pretty fucking gaudy win totals...

But regular season success is not enough...

U also need talent...Depth is meaningless if you don't have players who can make an impact beyond the hustle, gritty teammate plays...

If you say goodbye to McBuckets, Mitoric, and Taj for a chance to get Kevin Love (and add player filler here to make any deal happen), u do it...

Depth is only depth if it has history....

...but now we got them at various positions, you're saying toss 'em.

We criticized Thibs for playing guys 38+ minutes a game when he didn't have a bench to use. They GAVE him a bench again, and now you're saying trade that.

How many minutes do you think Love is gonna get without a back up PF?
What do the Bulls do if/when Noah goes down?
Why are we trying to have our cap tied up in Love, Gasol and Noah?

just because sheridan posts it doesn't mean its going to actually happen

This is old-fashioned market jacking, and I'm actually proud of Foreman for playing it this way

Jack up the market for Love, Cavs are DESPERATE to surround Bron with other stars. Cavs WILL get fleeced. cavs WILL get weaker, Bulls WILL Beat the shit out of cleveland in a 7 game series.


Fuck these rumors, im substantially proud of my FO this offseason, they are finally playing the leverage game right back at the league.

>just because sheridan posts it doesn't mean its going to
>actually happen
>
>This is old-fashioned market jacking, and I'm actually proud
>of Foreman for playing it this way
>
>Jack up the market for Love, Cavs are DESPERATE to surround
>Bron with other stars. Cavs WILL get fleeced. cavs WILL get
>weaker, Bulls WILL Beat the shit out of cleveland in a 7 game
>series.
>
>
>Fuck these rumors, im substantially proud of my FO this
>offseason, they are finally playing the leverage game right
>back at the league.


That def. could be going on...If Cleveland goes HAM and gives up too much, that's good news for the rest of the East and more importantly my Bulls...

But I also think Foreman has been hot for Love (see what I did there?) for a minute...

Still, I don't think this trade is going down....

>...but now we got them at various positions, you're saying
>toss 'em.
>
>We criticized Thibs for playing guys 38+ minutes a game when
>he didn't have a bench to use. They GAVE him a bench again,
>and now you're saying trade that.
>
>How many minutes do you think Love is gonna get without a back
>up PF?
>What do the Bulls do if/when Noah goes down?
>Why are we trying to have our cap tied up in Love, Gasol and
>Noah?


I mean, we all know this trade will never happen....So let's just start with that...lol

Otherwise, we don't know what kind of shooting we are getting from two unproven players who have yet to set foot on an NBA court....

we'll see.

Same source said it was done last week.


If its not signed tomorrow I wont comment on Love/Wiggins again until its over...tradetalkfatigue

>we'll see.
>
>Same source said it was done last week.
>
>
>If its not signed tomorrow I wont comment on Love/Wiggins
>again until its over...tradetalkfatigue


LOL....

Would not surprise me....

*crosses fingers*

It can't be Wiggins because he just signed his contract.

This has to be a rental anyway because of the salary cap. Kevin Love has to make more than Kyrie if he resigns so that hurts our cap even more. This is a dumb trade if Kevin Love doesn't agree to take less than 16 mill. Let's say the cap jumps to 68 mill.

13.67 + 15 + 22 = 50.67

The salary cap is 63.1 mill. This is a shit trade. Fuck Kevin Love's non defense playing ass. Either way Dion is gone. I hope the buffets in Minny or Philly are ready for him. He's going to gun on unprecedented AI levels.

How are you going to take two crappy draft picks and the scraps of a team looking to contend? Kind of collusion shit is that? I doubt it happens though. Again they don't have to trade him.

>*crosses fingers*
>
>It can't be Wiggins because he just signed his contract.



That doesn't mean anything. They could announce the deal and wait 30 days for it to officially go through....Right?

Oh yeah...Minny ain't taking Dion, Tristan and picks for Love...lol

ever officially signed.


All the googling I do shows that it was supposed to have been don but with no final announcement.

... I'm going to be petty as shit about it.

The question is who will be Shelley Winters?

>... I'm going to be petty as shit about it.

Eric Bledsoe’s Long, Hot, Restricted Summer



Eric Bledsoe and Greg Monroe are the last guys in the free-agency green room, discovering together how the weird netherworld of restricted free agency — where you’re neither fully restricted nor fully free (but perhaps verklempt) — can unfold at a snail’s pace.

Monroe’s free agency was earmarked for melodrama when Joe Dumars signed Josh Smith to a big-money contract last summer. That Bledsoe sits unsigned seems peculiar. He blossomed as a two-way beast in his first chance as a starter in Phoenix. The league is deeper than ever in quality point guards, and the Suns entered free agency with two — Bledsoe and Goran Dragic. But Dragic can be a free agent after next season, and the Suns thrived playing turbo-ball with both point guards on the floor. Phoenix also has one of the cleanest cap sheets in the league; splurging on a 24-year-old long-armed menace would be a no-brainer.

But the Suns signed a third starting-caliber point guard, Isaiah Thomas, and negotiations with Bledsoe have been stuck ever since. Could something sinister be going on here?

Probably not. It was only a year ago when Nikola Pekovic, also a restricted free agent, sat untouched until mid-August. The market dried up as potential suitors used their cap space, and the Wolves eventually re-signed Pekovic to a five-year, $60 million deal that was basically fair.

The same outcome is likely in Bledsoe’s case, though the market dynamics are different. Paul Coro of the Arizona Republic reported this week that the Suns had offered Bledsoe a four-year, $48 million contract, and that Bledsoe’s team is holding out for a five-year max offer that could run north of $80 million.

And here’s where you can see the wheels turning. The Suns’ offer would slot Bledsoe in the salary range of just about every “good but not great” point guard that has approached free agency over the last two years, with Ty Lawson ($12 million per year) and Jrue Holiday (a hair south of $11 million) the two closest comparable players. (You could toss in Stephen Curry’s ridiculous four-year, $44 million extension, but Curry’s chronic ankle issues forced him to accept a discount in exchange for locking in long-term security early.)

The Suns’ offer would pay Bledsoe exactly what fellow bulldog Kyle Lowry will make over the next four years, and much more than Mike Conley, Brandon Jennings, and Jeff Teague. That seems fair, considering Bledsoe has never logged 2,000 minutes in any season, and missed major time last season after undergoing a second operation on the meniscus cartilage in his right knee. Lawson and Holiday logged more combined minutes in their first three seasons, before signing contract extensions, than Bledsoe has in four full NBA campaigns. The luck of landing on Chris Paul’s team obviously affected that, but so have injuries and major early issues with shooting and turnovers.

Bledsoe had only a portion of the damaged meniscus removed, not the entire band of cushioning between bones, and he played well upon his return. This is nothing close to a Brandon Roy situation, or even a Dwyane Wade situation. But as great as he is, Bledsoe’s NBA track record is limited in comparison to most free agents who grab eight-figure deals after their fourth seasons, and the Suns would be taking on at least some long-term injury risk. Those injuries might scare Bledsoe off the nuclear option for any restricted free agent — taking the one-year qualifying offer, $3.7 million in Bledsoe’s case, and entering free agency unrestricted next summer.

The Suns also understand they are in a good position to play hardball. Most of the cap room around the league has dried up. There weren’t that many teams with both max-level cap space and an urgent need for a starting point guard, and three of those teams — Milwaukee, Orlando, and the Lakers — punted on chasing Bledsoe.

Some teams just don’t believe in pursuing restricted free agents. It’s easy to deliver Bledsoe’s agent a mammoth offer sheet, but it’d be much harder to sweat the 72 hours Phoenix would have to decide whether to match that offer sheet — three full days in which unencumbered teams could snatch up all the other free agents you might want.

And a team with matching rights can actually add an extra couple of days onto that window if it wants to be mean, which it should probably want to be. A little-known clause of the collective bargaining agreement gives any team that matches an offer sheet — Phoenix in this Bledsoe scenario — two days beyond that 72-hour window to administer the player in question a physical. The amount of the offer sheet stays on the rival team’s books during those two days, meaning a team in Phoenix’s position could lock a rival out of free agency for longer than 72 hours.

That’s why some teams just stay out of the derby entirely. The Lakers couldn’t dive into the Bledsoe sweepstakes right away, since they had to keep space open for LeBron James and Carmelo Anthony, and once those stars spurned them, the Lakers immediately gobbled up unrestricted free agents. The Magic and Bucks decided Bledsoe and restricted free agency weren’t for them, and neither seems likely to change course now. The Sixers have more cap room than anyone, but they appear to feel reflex nausea at the sight of any good veteran player on another team.

The Suns are right to push for a deal that is both fair and below the five-year mega-contract Bledsoe wants. There may come a point at which the Suns wish to trade Bledsoe, and options multiply if they have him on a contract with leaguewide appeal. Tacking on a fifth year would also prevent Phoenix from trading Bledsoe now, since teams cannot sign-and-trade a player inked to a contract that runs longer than four seasons. Ryan McDonough, the Suns’ GM, has had a killer first year on the job, and he’s not in the business of overpaying anyone on long-term deals. Ask Channing Frye.

But then you can hear the rejoinder from Rich Paul, Bledsoe’s agent: Gordon Hayward and Chandler Parsons just signed for $15 million per season apiece! One of those guys barely cracked 40 percent from the floor last season, and the other is two years older than Bledsoe, fresh off three seasons of playing minimal defense as a third option. Paul could argue that those contracts aren’t even that insane, since the cap is set to rise dramatically over the next three seasons — especially after the NBA signs the new national television deal that will kick in after the 2015-16 season.

You can see the line of thought. The cap will rise for Bledsoe too. The Holiday-Lawson-Curry $11 million–plus deals were signed two years ago, and they’re obsolete now — apples to oranges. Bledsoe sits squarely at the intersection of all sorts of competing trends.

The Suns might counter that if Bledsoe is really confident in both his own abilities and the leaping salary cap, perhaps he should sign a shorter deal at the kind of annual salary Phoenix is offering and set himself up to enter free agency again when the cap takes its biggest jump. We’ve already seen LeBron and Lance Stephenson try to time their next free agency this way, and we’re going to see more guys do it.

And that’s where things get interesting: Executives on lots of teams have gotten the sense from the league office that the NBA will try to smooth the increase of the cap level to minimize the impact of any massive one-year jump in revenue. Exactly how it would do that is unclear. The precise team salary cap — $58 million last season, $63 million this season — is tied to overall league revenues; the two rise and fall together. Players are guaranteed about 50 percent of the league’s “basketball-related income,” and the league and union set the cap figure so player salaries add up to a number in that 50 percent ballpark.

The league’s specific plan for smoothing out the cap increase is unclear, and in the end, it may opt against doing so at all. The players will receive their guaranteed 50 percent share of revenues regardless of any engineering.

You can see the sort of unpredictability it’s guarding against. A few teams have internal projections showing the cap level might jump as much as 30 percent over the next two years, and there is some anxiety that there could be a massive one-year jump in there somewhere depending on the exact timing of the announcement and implementation of the new national TV contract.

It’s a Wild West economic environment that makes it harder for teams and players to plan. It’s easier if you’re a no-brainer max guy, like LeBron, since you can sign one- or two-year deals with full confidence in locking up a long-term max whenever the cap rockets up by the largest amount. The challenge for teams is obvious, with Bledsoe’s free agency serving as a nice example. Gauging the proper value of a player changes if the cap jumps wildly year over year; constructing a long-term core is harder if more players start pushing for shorter contracts. On the flip side, shorter contracts today allow teams to plan for cap space tomorrow.

There are fairness issues for players too. Any guy with upside who signed a long-term contract last summer has to sit on the sideline now as the revenue bonanza ramps up. For players entering free agency now or next summer, the choice between long-term security and annual salary maximization is more stark than it has ever been. How much should a player have to sacrifice in hedging against injury or a decline in skill?

There are no easy answers, but the league may try to make them easier by artificially easing in the cap increase.

All of this plays into Phoenix’s negotiations with Bledsoe, which really aren’t so unusual within restricted free agency. Bledsoe is a really good player who is only starting to harness his skills as a creative floor leader. He has always been explosive off the bounce, but he learned under Chris Paul the power of a change-of-pace dribble — the ability to slow down, probe the lane, read the defense, and fire the right pass.

He reads the floor well, and he has emerged as a league-average 3-point shooter — a major win for him this early in his career. He got to the line six times per 36 minutes last year, a strong number for a guard.

He can still be a bit turnover-prone, but the yips of his first two seasons are gone, and more of his turnovers stem from patient prodding rather than the go-go-go recklessness that marked his first year or two. Bledsoe coughed it up on nearly 19 percent of his transition chances, the 22nd-worst mark among 229 players who finished at least 50 possessions in transition, per Synergy Sports. But fewer of those mistakes were head-slapping dashes to nowhere.

Bledsoe would often race ahead of his team, slow down, pull the ball out, and then try to hit a cutter with a risky pass that was just a tad offline. He likes to attack backpedaling defenders, and there were some spin moves in semitransition that ended badly. But these were not bananas-crazy Lance Stephenson–style transition turnovers, and that is encouraging.

And of course, Bledsoe is a beast on defense — what I like to call a Mirror Guy. A Mirror Guy reacts to the moves of his mark, both on and off the ball, with such perfect timing and balance that it almost appears as if the offensive player is working against his own reflection. Kawhi Leonard might be emerging as the league’s best perimeter Mirror Guy. Larry Sanders, when he’s actually playing basketball, has an uncanny knack for mimicking every jab step and feint a point guard throws at him on the pick-and-roll. He’s a big-man Mirror Guy.

Attacking Bledsoe one-on-one on the perimeter or from the block is usually going to lead to a brutally tough shot — even if you can drive into the restricted area. He’s so strong that one chest-to-chest bump stalls the momentum of almost any guard, and his giant wingspan allows him to challenge floaters and layups from all angles.

He’s not a perfect defender; he can get a little flat-footed ahead of a drive or a pick-and-roll, and he likes to press hard and reach for steals. Water bugs with quick crossovers gave him issues last season. But those guys give everyone issues, and Bledsoe’s elite speed and length allow him to recover from an early misstep better than most can manage.

He’s strong enough to guard some wing players, and the Suns would occasionally slot him on those types so that Dragic, Ish Smith, or even (in tiny doses) Gerald Green might take a run at opposing point guards. But Bledsoe mostly defended point guards, even while playing alongside Dragic.

There is also the small matter of Phoenix’s offense stalling out when Bledsoe ran solo. The Suns scored 108.4 points per 100 possessions when Dragic and Bledsoe played together, and just 100.7 when Dragic sat — a mark that would have ranked 25th among 30 teams over the full season. The team’s overall turnover rate spiked, and Bledsoe made more mistakes when he had to work as the lead ball handler.

Bledsoe also shot 55 percent in those non-Dragic minutes, and Phoenix, as fun as it was last season, wasn’t exactly awash in second-unit perimeter threats who could help Bledsoe create offense.

Bottom line: Bledsoe is a really good player, probably the most intriguing long-term guy of all the high-level restricted free agents. But the Suns are smart to push for a deal well below the max.

I think Dumars made some vow to Bill Davidson that he would ruin the next ownership's fucking lives. Signing an expensive bum that could lead to the departure of your best player would fit the bill nicely as a final fuck you.

Bledsoe I would kind of like to see stay. Wherever he lands I would like to see him stay healthy.

I mean, I'm not sure what the guy is asking as far as salary, or if they can afford him, but they're paying Kaman almost 5 mill.

Kaman makes them solid, but Monroe makes them better.

Wiggins to Minnesota, Bennett to Philly, Thad Young to Minnesota, Love to Cleveland. Other parts yet to be reported.

just saying

Bron will regret this trade inside of three years, WATCH.

Lebronon will ask more help after realizing Kevin Love makes too much and Bron won't win another title.

Anti-Philly trumps Pro-Canada

Ask concreteCharlie and MothershipConnection how I responded when the Cavs picked him, lol.

I just think he'll be better than his historic bust season indicated-- a kid with some real offensive potential. And I think dealing him with Wiggins is too much unless they get something-- anything-- else back.

even if they have to tweak it a bit since i'd assume right now philly is angling for a pick or two. see if they can get back lavine (lol) or airbud or brewer or barea.

k.j. mcdaniels and wroten are good rotational players but no reason they can't come off the bench. ne'd have the minutes and green light he wants to be happy there.

i know they're gonna need wings cause they're (stupidly) giving up wiggins, but a team with 30 mins every night of kyrie, dion, and love together is gonna be some drama.

He's about to be the fourth option.

He gots to go.

>He gots to go.

and tristan to stay

... then I'll be happy for him to stay.

and stay healthy.

“I have to make adjustments,” Waiters said. “I like to have the ball and we have Kyrie, and he likes to have the ball. So I have to find ways to impact the game without having the ball. I’m planning to go watch tape to see what D-Wade did when he played with LeBron. I need to learn how to be effective out there with him.”


“(Wade) is a ball-dominant guard too, and when LeBron came over he had to change his game too,” Waiters said. “He was so efficient, though, and that really helped their game. I think I can learn a lot from what he did.”

They got Wiggins and Young for a guy that was gonna leave in a season anyway.

Less Love jacking equals more ball movement... oh, and you get wiggins!


@rob_starrk

But Thad and Wiggins makes me pretty happy.

When has a team that has received a superstar with 5-8 years left in his prime regretted it?

could think giving up bennett and wiggins for kevin love represents a bad trade. it's born out of the fact that y'all spend all winter watching college games, know these players, and overrate their likelihood, and the extent, of their future success in the nba each and every year.

Cavs lose because:
-they now have to pay Kevin Love
-I like Kevin Love, but I don't think what he does well this team needs.
-according to some Cavs fans Dion needed to get moved. This trade didn't serve that.
-they still have Tristan playing the same position as Love. Didn't move him. His contact is due.
-they give up Bennett who has a boatload of potential.
-they give up on Wiggins who has even more potential than Bennett
-the Cavs lose out in roster flexibility with Bron, Kyrie, & Love locked up. And only 1 of them dudes play defense.
-in the long run, I think a team of Bron, Kyrie, Dion, Wiggins, & Bennett is better than this team. Bennett is an ultimate mismatch and Wiggins could essentially do all of the super duper athlete & lock down defender shit that Bron doesn't want to do.

>
>Wiggins, & Bennett is better than this team. Bennett is an
>ultimate mismatch and Wiggins could essentially do all of the
>super duper athlete & lock down defender shit that Bron
>doesn't want to do.

lmao at this wishcasting. Bennett just finished the worst rookie season for a number 1 pick ever and wiggins hasn't played a game yet.

might they turn into what you said? sure, maybe, but it's no sure bet, and history says neither will get to championship level for at least three more years.

so, what, you want to just waste the next two years (at least) of Bron's prime and miss trading for a top ten players who's 26 all so you can hope that these guys reach their potential?

bird in the hand.

We all know Love's positives and negatives, but Bennett and Wiggins (the versions in my mind) have no downside.

"What about Bron's prime?"

That's exactly what I'm talking about.

With Kevin Love they're not winning a title this year anyway.

Oh and Kristen Kish is the bees knees.

but man her face, is stunning. Top 5 in my book, right today.

She is bad.

And a beastly chef too. Them dudes were shook at her talent.

yes, the spurs would probably sweep that team while putting up 130 a game for the entire series. the spurs are a different animal though, if the spurs are going to repeat this season, everyone else is just kind of screwed.

i don't think it's a given that a bron/love/kyrie tandem automatically loses to okc or the clippers.

EDIT: also, love's awfulness as a defender is overstated, kyrie will get a lot better, and with those three guys, you could flip dion for a dalembert-caliber rim protector and be straight.

And OKC is definitely a lot better than the Cavs. Just stop.

And Kevin Love's lack of defense is getting overblown because......?
All of the key stops you seen the Wolves get over the years?
All of the defensive lockdowns he's done?

Advanced stats say he's progressed to "meh" level defense. He's not good, but he's far from the horrible Harden level. Yeah, you want to get a rim protector next to him, but he'll be fine in a sound defensive concept.

As far as OKC being clearly better than them, y'all are seriously sleeping on how good Bron and especially Love really are. It's cool. Sounds like the trade is done, so you'll learn.

Lol...at your "How dare you question Kevin Love?" stance.

He's done absolutely nothing to warrant this level of optimism.

absolutely.

Chicago is probably the biggest threat but has health concerns.

But even without those concerns, Cavs+Bron = Cavs still better *wink*.

So basically, Cavs get two years to develop their youngsters in a conference that has minimal roadblocks to the finals and then they get to learn HOW to play championship ball 2 yrs running.

Cavs STILL maintain cap flexibility and the ability to add more pieces that would extend Bron's prime and set Clev up for a 15-20 year contender run given Wiggins/Bennett/Kyrie post-Bron and whatever they could move Dion for.

>lmao at this wishcasting. Bennett just finished the worst
>rookie season for a number 1 pick ever and wiggins hasn't
>played a game yet.

So if you're going to wishcast, it would be given the opportunity. The Spurs won a title in Tim Duncan's second season. D-Wade got one yr 3 because of Shaq. Bron can get the Young Bol's to the mountaintop. Their talent will get them further as it grows. Kevin Love isn't getting much better on either side of the ball (maybe a smidge on D if he commits), is gonna cost 20 mil a year and doesn't guarantee a ring more than keeping the young guys.

>so, what, you want to just waste the next two years (at least)
>of Bron's prime and miss trading for a top ten players who's
>26 all so you can hope that these guys reach their potential?

How is it a waste when even WITH the youngsters, ECF is their MINIMUM? That means they are contenders and could only get BETTER. I think Bron would be happy if in 5 years he got 3-5 more shots at a ring and towards the end, those guys were coming into their own to help him even more versus a few shots at it then being stuck for the last 3 due to lack of roster flexibility with a guy hitting/past 30 (Love) as his best wing man.

>But even without those concerns, Cavs+Bron = Cavs still better
>*wink*.
>
>So basically, Cavs get two years to develop their youngsters
>in a conference that has minimal roadblocks to the finals and
>then they get to learn HOW to play championship ball 2 yrs
>running.

which only happens if wiggins and bennett reach their potential, which is far far far far far from assured. i get kevin love, i got a chance at a ring next year.

>So if you're going to wishcast, it would be given the
>opportunity. The Spurs won a title in Tim Duncan's second
>season. D-Wade got one yr 3 because of Shaq.

so now Andrew Wiggins is going to be as good as Tim Duncan and D-Wade, guaranteed. there's no chance he could be anything less than a first ballot all star. ok.

n/m

versus the guy who has zero, zero, and zero healthy knees?

i mean, he had a very easy path to the finals, yes? it's hard to debate that.

he backed into those finals (one of which he was lucky to win) with the help of rose's bad knees. the east was arguably at an all-time weakest point the last couple years.

regardless, you are posting mad lately.

.
>-in the long run, I think a team of Bron, Kyrie, Dion,
>Wiggins, & Bennett is better than this team.


bron is putting himself into a title or bust EVERY year scenario again
and that's fine
but people keep talking about brons window like he's 35 or something
i don't mind waiting 2-3 yrs as a fan if it means seeing a more dominant balanced team at the end of that timeframe
bron's prime might even be extended a bit if the expectations aren't title and bust with him playing 48 minutes a night because the cavs shit depth after the love deal

and to where playing with Lebron can get them, that's a bankable 62 to 68 wins each year with Bron not playing crazy mins and chilling through the regular season. That's a proper dynasty.

The key word to what you said is IF
I can't say that Wiggins won't be a star. Personally, I think he will, so let's take that IF out of the deal

But Bennett RIGHT TODAY is a HUGE IF. IF he plays up to his potential, then whoever gets him in the trade wins BIG. If he turns out to be like LJ, then Cleveland will look like idiots. But IF he turns out to be more Joe Smith, then Cleveland would've made the smart move.

Personally, I would rather get the known then the unknown. Especially the known that although might cost more, you know what you're gonna get. Trading Wiggins hurts a bit, but if Bennett has to be in the deal and that's it? Make that deal. If the Cavs are giving up Wiggins and Bennett, that's the right move. They're keeping Dion and Tristan (who I think is doodoo, but that's another story)

There's not a lot of Kevin Love's out there...and he's not an IF

That's supposed to be his competition, the next "alpha male" if you will. In theory its great and a great story, but as you pointed out yesterday, Lebron hasnt even reached out to the kid. That tells you enough about the view of Wiggins narrative as the "crown prince" or the "born usurper".

Bron on His Joffrey

in Cleveland was a lie

You just want him to have aweaker team in the short term so you have some time to cop pleas. Its okay, with Love they'll be fine. After last time around I think they're allowed at least 1 year grace period.

bron already has his chips , which i ain't even pressed about anyway, and he already is getting positioned as a legit threat to jordan's goatness with only 2 chips
i like lebron but i didn't cosign this move to cleveland and i don't cosign him painting a narrative about going back home only to have him immediately trying construct another super team
if he didn't reach out to wiggins at all that's some nut ass shit

Then threw out some, "I guess we're both busy." type of excuse.

dude had time to send wiggins a text
he's basically on vacation right now
that's the thing i don't like. i think this kevin love shit is entirely bron motivated
cavs seemed totally content to keep the young core going forward, the coach said as much
when bron gave the edict that shit was a wrap though

letting Lebron pick the team.

Riley didn't let that happen.

The Cavs let Bron do that the first go around.

And what happens if this shit falls apart and he leaves in 2 yrs? He'll hit them with, "Y'all should've made better moves."

threatened by Wiggins.

He works out with Durant. Durant is more heir to the throne than Wiggins.

Wiggins by all accounts is the nicest of nice kids. If anything Bron could jump in, take him under his wing and earn some points for making him who he is just like MJ did with Scottie.

and wanting him traded for a 25-year-old four-time All-Star that will take touches from him.

I'm sure Bron would be fine with keeping Andrew Wiggins over Anthony Bennett and Dion Waiters, unfortunately for them even Minnesota in the Kahn era wouldn't be that dumb and desperate.

Love's prime on paper should last longer than Lebron's from here and Cleveland's entire purpose as a city who hasn't won anything in 50 years that just had the #1 pick in the draft 3 out of the last 4 years because of how shitty they've been since Lebron left, is taking as many cracks as possible at a title before Lebron's prime concludes.

You said Lebron/Love/Kyrie wouldn't make the Eastern Conference Finals.

I'd imagine you'll start to walk back that laugh-worthy bit of bullshit by now, instead I'll be generous and give you the entire east field next postseason while I get the Cavs.

You let me know what you wanna bet on it.

Nice to know you're a Cavs superfan now though.

So I'd suggest they start trying to win right now while Lebron is at his peak and Love is reaching his rather than wait on a raw 19-year-old you were lucky enough to land and provided you with an 'upside' asset you can sell to a team forced to get rid of their best player.

I'm aware that Shawn was the one to trot that out first, not sure he was being altogether literal but the notion is something I chuckled at much like I did at your claim that Kevin Love, Lebron James, Kyrie Irving wouldn't make the Eastern Conference Finals.

Like I was saying, I'm guessing you can and will back off that statement as we move along here, you can always blame it on Indiana's mismanagement and misfortunes.

This is why I gave you two additional rounds of win as a charitable donation for any wager we would make on the matter.

I'm more excited about the Sixers than I have been since Iverson was cupping his ears in the direction of my corner seats on the home floor during his doube-nickel evisceration of the Hornets in the '03 playoffs.

But in addition to that I'm also a fan of NBA basketball, Lebron James' contributions to it and of winning wagers on either of those two subjects amongst others.

Maybe next reply you can give me a response on this generous offer. peace.

Pacers going down is a blow. But I Don't know why I'll change.

>Pacers going down is a blow. But I Don't know why I'll
>change.

It is noted tho so now that I know u won't be losing money I/we can laugh about it later.

Everybody loves that word...

"IF"


Until they don't....

way better.

You literally don't like the fact that he's expected to seriously contend for a title right away.

on bron ALREADY LOST
he could never win again and i wouldn't lose sleep over it from an agenda pov
espn/bayless and them going do what they do regardless
i don't argue with them niggas though so don't care

Paul Millsap
Brandon Bass
Brook Lopez (player option)
Al Jefferson (player option)
Roy Hibbert
David West
Glen Davis
DeAndre Jordan
Carlos Boozer
Marc Gasol
Omer Asik
Amare Stoudemire
Nick Collins
Kendrick Perkins
Thad Young
Lamarcus Aldridge
Kevin Love (doubt Minny lets this happen, but still)

Bennett and Wiggins just not ready.

>Bennett and Wiggins just not ready.


This^^^is where I'm at....(Although when I really look at it I think the Cavs are kind of skating in terms of what they are giving up...Minny stupid for not trying to hold out for Tristan or Dion...)

But in terms of Love working out for this team, I'm with that thinking....I think Wiggins will show how REALLY good he is in his 3rd, 4th year...The kid def. has the goods...Bennett? I don't know how he will be...He's a huge question mark...And as much as I shit on Love for not leading his team to even a 8th seed I never confuse that with his talent....

Anyone asking what he will bring to the Cavs is either someone who is letting their hate for Love blind them to his actual skills or is just fucking around...

Love will bring rebounding, pure shooting (outside/3 pt), scoring and interior passing (he's shown that he can pass the rock when he has real options)...What he lacks in defense can be masked...

Bottom line...Love ain't good enough to be a no. 1 option on a team...But I believe he will play that Robin role very well with James...His specific skill set creates the perfect combo with James...

officially out of PLEA COPS now. a top 5 PF playing with the best player in the world and a top 5 PG?

No more "bad team" excuses, we'll get to see what he's really all about.

It will be interesting to see what kind of numbers he puts up playing with Lebron and Kyrie...

>officially out of PLEA COPS now. a top 5 PF playing with the
>best player in the world and a top 5 PG?
>
>No more "bad team" excuses, we'll get to see what he's really
>all about.
>
>It will be interesting to see what kind of numbers he puts up
>playing with Lebron and Kyrie...


It's one thing to question Love on not being a true no. 1 option, which I believe to be the case...

It's quite another to call the guy a fraud...lol

James has made MUCH lesser players into playoff caliber talents..He's taken players that shouldn't even be starting to the playoffs...

Love will be fine as a Cav...

a player. I think playing with Lebron and Kyrie he's numbers are going to fall off like Bosh's did when he went to Miami as the 3rd option behind Lebron and Wade.

love is about to get 5-7million per MORE than what bosh got
and he's supposed to be a better scorer rebounder at this point of his career than bosh ever was (according to new love stans)
i'm not trying see 16 points a game from dude
that would be a complete individual failure given the support he'd have on this team
22ppg+ and 10rpg or it's a L

I don't know any of these Love STANS that u speak of except for the STAT obsessed folks and people who need that great white hope...

Mostly everyone else has pointed out that Love has never led his team to the playoffs..They point out that he has not been the best teammate...But they also see that beyond KG's stint at Minny, that franchise has been a wasteland...

Only folks on message boards care about STANNING/L's as it pertains to 2nd/3rd banana status on a pro team....I'm sure at this point in his career Love just wants to win some games and make the playoffs...Something that he has been unable to do in Minny...

In other words...It ain't that serious, my dude...lol

>In other words...It ain't that serious, my dude...lol
>
>

this thread ain't that serious as it pertains to my life
but i'm in here with hella other niggas 400 replies deep
yall picked yall side on this love shit. own it.
cavs need to win a title this year and multiple titles over all....as that's the main incentive for adding love. amiright
and love needs to ball better than bosh did

>>In other words...It ain't that serious, my dude...lol
>>
>>
>
>this thread ain't that serious as it pertains to my life
>but i'm in here with hella other niggas 400 replies deep
>yall picked yall side on this love shit. own it.
>cavs need to win a title this year and multiple titles over
>all....as that's the main incentive for adding love. amiright
>and love needs to ball better than bosh did


I don't think anyone is reaching by saying that u choose the knowable vs. the unkownable (made up a word...but u get it....)...That's what much of the 400 plus post debate has been about...Do you go for the kid with potential or the guy who has shown he can put in work in the NBA....?

It's not jumping to the side of Love by making the reasonable argument that the Cavs r making the right move by going with the player that is a known PRO commodity....

I'm not a Love fan by any stretch...I think he's not a no. 1 guy...But then again, I'm not much for potential...He can def. be your two or he can share the load with a gifted player...

But again...debating over potential vs. the knowable is totally different than going the route of creating Love STANS out the air and making the white boy out to be the reason James won't bring a ring to Cleveland...

>a player. I think playing with Lebron and Kyrie he's numbers
>are going to fall off like Bosh's did when he went to Miami as
>the 3rd option behind Lebron and Wade.


I don't think he cares about that...lol...As I said below Love just wants to get out of that joke of a franchise...He wants to taste some wins...he wants to get in the playoffs...We talking about a player that has never sniffed the 'Offs....He's been on some terrible teams so I'm sure he wants to prove that he can be a winner.

U guys are doing way too much with this other soap opera shit...lol

>U guys are doing way too much with this other soap opera
>shit...lol

the first week of FAgency this year was better than 80% of the playoff series that proceeded it
no one is talking x's and o's on here right now
it's all speculation and arguments over potential plot twist

I'm sure dude wants to experience the playoffs...U actually think if Love was averaging 16 and 10 that he would be raising bloody hell? On a Team with LeBron James?...lol...Come on, dog...

I think u doing too much....To "me" the logical discussions to be having r the debate of the unproven Pro commodity vs. the proven Pro commodity...Or whether or not the Cavs would be missing a rim protection and should they give up Dion to get that dirty work guy...

But jumping off the deep end about a player WHO HAS NEVER BEEN TO THE PLAYOFFS kicking up dust because he's not averaging 24 and 12 while playing next to the best player of his generation?

The only way u will see Love bitching is the same reason u see any star player bitching about their "touches"...

If they are losing...

for rebounds.

When u r losing team, stats are all u got...

I think it's good that Love has the chance to play his true role...Because he's not a 1st option/leader for a team...

Basically, I think Love will be OK playing next to James...And Love won't be barking on Bron the same way he was with his Minny teammates....

The least thing to be worried about....

I have that nagging feeling this Cavs teams will win more games next season than the Heat won in each of the last 4 years.

be on lebron unless he disappears in the finals again
we already know what lebron can do with a good cast
if they lose again or don't even make the finals it's time to evaluate love and kyrie as supporting players

I love the Cavs but I need some help with this one.

Is Kyrie a top 5 point guard? He's clearly top 15 but top 5 is a stretch.

Why do you think Kyrie is a top 5 point guard in the NBA?

You didn't say top 5 young nigga, you said the entire league.

that it's a tossup. Parker is obviously more accomplished but is he really a better player than Kyrie? Personally I don't think so.

Are we putting Rose back up there based of a few practices and a half of a scrimmage? I'm not.

Deron has obviously fell out of the convo.

Rondo isn't otherworldly without 3 HOF'ers with him.

From there it's a tossup between other young guys like Wall and Lillard depending on what you want your pg to do.

most of these PGs we're arguing about we ALL have seen in multiple prime time games. many on the biggest stage (playoff)
unless you live in the cleveland area who the fuck was really watching 20+ cavs games last yr
and even if you were what were the context of his performances?
was it garbage time by the 3rd quarter? was the other team even trying hard that night?
who knows
this year we will really see how good kyrie and love are on prime time under the lights.

knowing good and gotdamn well they ain't watched 10 timberwolves games since KG left.

but they know his game inside and out. okay.

those national tv schedules are being juggled as we speak, lol

this ain't the NFL
you going have every opportunity to shit on Love this year
he bet not brick any game winners when bron deflects and bet not get destroyed in the paint by LA, blake, or ant davis
kyrie going finally be under that same microscope

all i see is a giant pass given to him. he been MORE injury prone than kyrie and he ain't made the playoffs.

same way kyrie got knocked down a peg this year, i expect the same treatment for AD.

he need to carry them bums to the playoffs.

this year.

he lost jrue and anderson and still won more games than kyrie in a tougher conference
pellies a lock to win 40 games next year
he leapfrogged kyrie and got that #1 young player crown already

this being unreasonable thing is gonna be fun this year. i'mma make it work for me instead of always having to present facts. i'm taking hardline stances and i'm acting stupid about ancillary factors...all that matters is the result.

a) missing the offs out west: waaay different than missing them in the east

b) when holiday, smith and anderson all went out, there was no way he was carrying them. he could've put 40/20 and it wouldn't have mattered

that said, i see your point. i do think they make the postseason this year tho. low key, the asik pickup was one of the best of the summer.






>all i see is a giant pass given to him. he been MORE injury
>prone than kyrie and he ain't made the playoffs.
>
>same way kyrie got knocked down a peg this year, i expect the
>same treatment for AD.
>
>he need to carry them bums to the playoffs.

>, the asik pickup was one of
>the best of the summer.

modify my above response to lock for 45 wins

He will never flash that Colgate smile as a player at All-Star Weekend ever again.

Still, the Pelicans should at least be an eight-seed off Brow alone.

No way in hell do they see 55 wins tho.

At the 2013 All Star break:

"This season, Holiday is averaging team-highs of 19.0 points and 9.0 assists along with 4.2 rebounds and 1.45 steals per game. He ranks 13th in the NBA in scoring and fourth in assists and is the only player in the league averaging at least 19.0 points and 9.0 assists."


19, 9 and 4 is an All Star any year, in any league.

Now whether or not he ever gets back there is certainly up for debate, but Jrue absolutely, 100% was a deserving All Star in 2013 regardless of injuries or whatever revisionist bullshit you wanna keep trotting out.

>At the 2013 All Star break:
>
>"This season, Holiday is averaging team-highs of 19.0 points
>and 9.0 assists along with 4.2 rebounds and 1.45 steals per
>game. He ranks 13th in the NBA in scoring and fourth in
>assists and is the only player in the league averaging at
>least 19.0 points and 9.0 assists."
>
>
>19, 9 and 4 is an All Star any year, in any league.
>
19/9 on a 22-30 team as the first option on low 40s FG% is All-Star in any league/conference/year?

Over Russ, CP3 & Parker if he'd been in the West?

Hell No.

Over Rondo & Kyrie in the East if Rondo (the elected starter) wasn't hurt?

No again.

Shoot even Wall was better than that when he came back that season, in every statistical category, with a better team record while in the lineup.

>Now whether or not he ever gets back there is certainly up for
>debate, but Jrue absolutely, 100% was a deserving All Star in
>2013 regardless of injuries or whatever revisionist bullshit
>you wanna keep trotting out.
>
He was a deserving injury-replacement in an Eastern Conference low on All-Star PG's and eventually finished with 17/8/4 which was basically .3 points, 1.7 assists (with no one to pass to) more and 2 less boards per game than MCW in his much-critiqued ROY campaign in a weak year.

Whoopty-Damn-Do.

No one is mistaking either season or player's game for a *must have* All-Star.

Nothing revisionist about the truth, spoken by someone who lived thru both & had reason to study each closely.

There's nothing for Jrue to 'get back' to......him on his best day was/is/shall-be barely a Top 10 PG.

That isn't likely to change moving forward in now his sixth season as a pro.
>
>

reke had a nice second half too. 17, 6 and 5 after the break.

i think they make a solid leap and AD gets some MVP chatter.

he need to make the playoffs.

no doubt. when in rome.

>all i see is a giant pass given to him.

He's played two years for N.O. That giant pass is called "youth".
Based on his progress thus far, this is definitely a show/prove year for him, but saying he's gotten a pass up to this point is absurd. He's got three nice guards around him and a decent player in Ryan, but let's not act like he walked onto CP3's NO squad.

he been MORE injury
>prone than kyrie and he ain't made the playoffs.

In just two years. What were you expecting from him in his first two years?

>same way kyrie got knocked down a peg this year, i expect the
>same treatment for AD.
>
>he need to carry them bums to the playoffs.

Well yeah, now. Going forward. But up to this point? Nah, he's straight. No pass.

but dudes were talking about how he missed the playoffs.

all i'm saying is...playoffs. no excuses.

>but dudes were talking about how he missed the playoffs.

Whoever was saying that was an idiot.

>all i'm saying is...playoffs. no excuses.

No, excuses. Reke/Gordon/Jrue is a nice trio of guards, but unless one of them breaks out in a big way this year, they don't have much to make a lot of headway out west. They could be good enough if AD makes another leap forward, but he needs better players around him.

i'm just not gonna be fair to him on this board...out of pure spite.

his TEAM needs to make the playoffs, no matter how injured or sorry they are.

Then had to eat it.

The Cavs set him up nice last year.

3 top 5 pick teammates, Andy, Bynum...then later Deng.

They was TRYING to win.

Then Dion went all "YALL BUDDY BALLIN'" on 'em and B tapped out.

lol

But let's not act like folx was just throwing Kyrie out there. Ba did it too. Now he gonna play jilted when he egged it on. smh

Don't believe the hype.

I forgot how grueling and tedious some of these OKS convos get. I think I'm gonna rest up on the Agenda Wars until the season starts lol.

http://i.imgur.com/lrlYV13.gif

If they are moderately healthy this year he's on notice, 50+ wins por favor. Not his fault the narrative on him has spun out of control, but it is what it is.

This is new NBA reality, and we're all just talking shit anyway.

if they're assuming Rose is coming back healthy

Rose
CP3
Westbrook
Curry
Parker

and then the rest of the 10

Rondo
Lillard
Kyrie
Wall
Deron

and a half a scrimmage.

Not after he's missed almost 2 seasons.

That's why he said "assuming" that Rose comes back healthy....lol

teams games for 2 consecutive seasons you aren't allow in the convo for top 5 anything

Chris Paul
Damian Lillard
Russ Westbrook
Rondo
Stephen Curry
John Wall
Isaiah Thomas Jr. (yeah, he's better as of right now)
Goran Dragic (um, yeah)
Tony Parker

He ain't even close to being top 5. He may take a jump this season, playing with Lebron, but that's obviously yet to be seen.

>Chris Paul
>Damian Lillard
>Russ Westbrook
>Rondo
>Stephen Curry
>John Wall
>Isaiah Thomas Jr. (yeah, he's better as of right now)
>Goran Dragic (um, yeah)
>Tony Parker
>
>He ain't even close to being top 5. He may take a jump this
>season, playing with Lebron, but that's obviously yet to be
>seen.

I get where you're coming from with Isaiah Thomas. Obviously, I'm bias so of course I'll ride with Kyrie over Isaiah. However, objectively speaking, it's a push at worst.

>
>I get where you're coming from with Isaiah Thomas. Obviously,
>I'm bias so of course I'll ride with Kyrie over Isaiah.
>However, objectively speaking, it's a push at worst.

Yeah, that one is pretty close. I honestly wouldn't argue anyone picking Irving over him, cause it is that close. Curious to see how both play with their new roles.

Oh, and don't forget about Mike Conley. That's close too. I think I'd actually say Conley is better right now by a hair. Kyrie really ain't done shit. Let's be honest. At least Mike helped carry that team to the playoffs in the west and took OKC to 7 games.

so because kyrie had a down year, which was still better than lillard's and wall's, he ain't better than fuckin isaiah thomas?

see, now i'm frying that lil goomba ass nigga all year. i don't care what his role is. he better have stats and team success equal to kyrie.

for the record, no one will be better than kyrie this season. not one point guard.

>Yeah, that one is pretty close. I honestly would argue anyone picking Irving over him, cause it is that close.<

I meant "I honestly wouldn't"...

They're close, so to me it can go either way. I would pick Thomas, myself.

he's good but cmon okp

http://tinyurl.com/nyqhs92

And I like him, and have been FAR from a Kyrie cheerleader. But that's ridiculous.

>Chris Paul
>Damian Lillard - nope
>Russ Westbrook
>Rondo - been hurt for 2 years
>Stephen Curry
>John Wall - nope
>Isaiah Thomas Jr. (yeah, he's better as of right now) - hell naw, lol
>Goran Dragic (um, yeah) - nope
>Tony Parker - debateable

safe to say 60 wins and a finals appearance is an L for you?

Love and Kyrie wouldn't really be a shocker.

>safe to say 60 wins and a finals appearance is an L for you?

If Kevin Love puts up anywhere close to his Minnesota numbers on a good team that's a L for me, if he falls back and becomes a 3rd banana role player he's basically what I said he was back in 2010.

>Love and Kyrie wouldn't really be a shocker.
>
>>safe to say 60 wins and a finals appearance is an L for you?
>
>If Kevin Love puts up anywhere close to his Minnesota numbers
>on a good team that's a L for me, if he falls back and becomes
>a 3rd banana role player he's basically what I said he was
>back in 2010.


I don't get this...at all....lol

Even as someone who has got on Love more than enough I can't for the life me see where u r going with this....

You can't say Love is going to bitch about not getting his numbers and THEN in another post say u will judge him if he doesn't hit his numbers...

Dog...the only thing Love AND ANY PLAYER should be judged on is can that player help their team win...Because what happens if Love doesn't hit his numbers and they make a deep playoff team?

U can't play this game, homie...U will tie yourself up and knots...Just fry the fuck out of Love if he doesn't help the Cavs win...That would be good enough, right?

padder on a bad team. If he's you're best player you don't have a very good team.

Check the archives.

Dude didn't become a full time starter till his 3rd year, his 4th year was a lockout short season, his 5th he was hurt and only played 18 games, and his 6th (last year) he finally played his 2nd full season and hung tough in a fierce west. I think he's being undersold a bit, but is about to have a big impact in Cleveland a la Pau Gasol going to LA in '08. No he's not the defensive player Pau was of course, but his offensive skills I think compliment Lebron and Kyrie well.

>padder on a bad team. If he's you're best player you don't
>have a very good team.
>
>Check the archives.


Nah...I know your MO, homie....It's all good...

In fact, I agree with u (to a point)...if Love is your best player u will not have a good playoff contending team (at least in the West...)

But that's the rub.

Love won't be called upon to be the best player on the Cavs...So that kind of deads that debate, right? I think it's now about judging Love on his ability to be an impact player on a team that will undoubtedly have a winning record...

So whether he score 24 and 12 or 18 and 9 means little if they are winning games...

Now let me stop talking about this Love dude. Fuck him and his team...

Bulls all day....

It's not the numbers, it's how he's getting them that's going to matter for them to win a chip.
-Is he efficient?
-Does he make his teammate better?
-Does he make an impact on the defensive end?
-Does he hustle?
or....Is he CHASING rebounds/cherry picking?

I honestly haven't seen that much of Wiggins (cause who has time for that) but from the 2 or 3 games I've seen the T-Wolves he looks OK, not a surefire star but there's enough promise there.

But he was by far their #1 tradeable chip and they sent him for a guy who wasn't an obvious no brainer fit SMH... yes a guy who is all offense no D is going to thrive in a situation where he's going to get less shots and lean more on his defense. And those shots they do give him take away from the boards, his other strength. He might have been the most available big name option but I guarantee you there would have been a better fit available if they gave that #1 pick a more honest shopping around. When will people learn that there's only one ball and two sides of the court???

Rip Hamilton was one of the worst defensive 2 guards in the league until he came to play for Rick Carlisle. But Rick Carlisle was a strong voice who had won 50 games the year before and made defense a priority. The Cavs have a coach who most players seem to be indifferent to, regardless of whether or not he knows what he's doing.

On its face, Wiggins for Love was a no brainer. He just turned 26 and should have 2 more years of improvement in front of him.

It's one thing for a defensive minded coach to take a guy like Rip Hamilton or Ray Allen and turn them into adequate or better defensive players. Those guys absolutely had the length and athleticism to play D, they just needed the right situation (less offensive burden so they can expend more energy on defense) and right coach directing them to step it up.

It's another thing for guys who aren't super athletic or super long cause they have to expend extra effort and extra attention just to be adequate on that end. Take someone like JJ Redick and he spends extra energy to be in the right spot in that end and you know he's still just gonna get beat in some matchups. And that's a guy who's bought into being a role player. Or better example, for bigs a Zach Randolph... he's still a defensive liability against the wrong matchups but he'll at least take something out of you regardless cause he'll beat you up.

Take someone like Love though who thinks he's a star and has been told he's by everyone that he's a star and then tell him "Alright we want you to score 17 points instead of 25 points and get your kicks beating the shit out of people on the other end but you'll still probably be embarrassed in the wrong matchups anyway..." You think the human layup line wants any of that? Hell no what makes you think that? It probably took a full year and a half for Bosh to buy into that and he was always a more gifted/willing defender.

Not all about offensive stats
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