i think a large part of what people equate 'good' with is economic.

but --- to go further into something HotThyng was saying ----- i think a looooot of it is wrapped up in 'traditional' ideas about gender.

we've been focusing on the 'good' part in this conversation, but i mean, a large part of this conversation could revolve around the 'man' part, too.

if anything, that may be the hardest part of the whole phrase to get a handle on. there seems no way to effectively define 'manhood'.