This is something I've been wanting to do for YEARS on this board. That's why it's so long, and it's why I hope that you take a moment to read it all.

I've been drafting and rewriting this post for about six months. Considering the fact that I have few peers in GD, I feel that I have nothing to lose in initiating such a post. I do not feel that this post is stupid, or that it should be deleted by whoever-doesn't-like-me. I do NOT feel that it's a waste of time. I will NOT field questions about my motives. Heckles will go ignored.

The purpose of this post is not to experiment with anyone's viewpoints in hopes of confirming any selfish ideas I may have about the subject at hand. Rather, it is geared towards sparking something that some of us don't really feel equipped to initiate: genuine and unselfish conversation about this race thing between black OKP's and white OKP's. (I have no desire to exclude OKP's of other racial backgrounds from this, but I feel that it's a must that the two LOUDEST and most opinionated groups of people on this board attempt to engage in discussion, ask the questions that no one wants to ask and at least TRY to get some genuine understanding. Because the LOT of us must inhabit this small, cramped country for as long as possible without killing each other--and I'm sure you'll agree that this shit's getting ridiculous.)

I have watched this board deteriorate over the course of the last five years with an intense deal of sadness. Part of that deterioration stems from a great deal of inflammatory, uninformed and negative commentary in regards to American race relations. Because of that, and because of the fact that I am aware of certain OKP's with very outspoken views on race, I humbly ask that this post serve as an autonomous area in which people can ASK QUESTIONS and GET THINGS STRAIGHT about each other. An AUTONOMOUS area, without reprimand or lingering beef or none of that fuckshit. This post will not move into a direction where the choir is being preached to--people need to really speak the fucking TRUTH here.

If the white OKP's want to ask the black OKP's a question they were afraid of asking before, I grant them this space in which to do so. Same for the black OKP's--ask a question. Frame it CLEARLY and CALMLY.
Ask on ANY level--get as deep as you need to get with it. If it generates an uncomfortable feel for you, so be it. TALK YOUR WAY THROUGH IT. DO NOT RUN FROM IT, because you WILL face the question again one day. If possible, DON'T EDIT...JUST POST IT and let the chips fall.

Don't be distracted by hecklers, as they will come. But be mindful that I am requesting that at least one (1) moderator watch this post closely, and in a neutral position. I ask that any of the ignorant and childish commentary that has plagued discussions such as these be met with strict discipline. I ask that the moderator exercise his or her ability to indefinitely ban the IP addresses of those who refuse to comply. Finally, I ask the community to exercise a degree of emotional control, and police your homies in the process. THIS EVENT MUST OCCUR IN A REASONABLY-CIVIL ATMOSPHERE.

There are a number of individuals who I feel should be a part of this post. I don't care about naming names, and I don't care about being CALLED names for trying to initiate this.

This post is generally about US--OKP's in general. It's about the fact that, on both sides of the equation, black people and white people are NOT effectively communicating with each other--the state of this country is PURE evidence of that. As this message board is a microcosm of real ideas and a place of communication, I ASK YOU FOR JUST THAT. I'm not asking you to listen to my radio show--I'm asking you to give this post ONE WEEK. Just one week--that's all. If, within that week, you've talked over something with someone here and reached a REAL conclusion--not another dead end--then the work is getting done. If it doesn't work in the end, fuck it--I tried.

Some of you are okay with existing in divided communities in EVERY manner of your existence. To that, I say, "Do you." But most of you don't want that--most of you WANT to be able to talk to each other. We wake up every day and wish that this race thing wasn't such a goddamn problem, but here it is. And here we are...ranting and ranting, yet the animosity remains. Be the change you want to see.

I am requesting that this post be anchored for one week in General Discussion. Should this go overlooked, I will push and fight for the initation of this experiment again and again, for as long as necessary (again, I DO NOT CARE about what's comfortable. I care about what WORKS). And I am CHALLENGING the most-( and least-) vocal of you--the ones who've kicked up the most dust--to STEP UP AND TALK THIS SHIT OUT WITH THE PEOPLE AROUND YOU. If you lurk, STOP COWERING IN THE GODDAMN SHADOWS and SPEAK UP.

In hopes that I've made a clear case, I leave my plea in the hands of the moderators and daily residents of this board.

Again, I provide a NEUTRAL ZONE. Nothing more. Use the N-word, do whatever it takes.

Kum-ba-ya.

Somebody go first.

Maybe I'll try later.

So, okay--come back later.

Especially when they used to say that about black folks not even 30 years ago?
__________________________________________________________

http://www.myspace.com/chamilton

http://maulerkoala.blogspot.com/

Bucks Playoffs in the 05-06 season Son


<=======Okay Jawn Month SOOOOOON

"She got that new dick scent..." (c) Me

I think that the perception is almost like slang, in a way--it holds no immediate significance, but you say it because it seems to be understood by certain people around you.

just as I can go walk down the South Side of Milwaukee and ask a random person what they think of black people,and get the same damn answer.

Its completely absurd,but people buy into it for whatever reason.
__________________________________________________________

http://www.myspace.com/chamilton

http://maulerkoala.blogspot.com/

Bucks Playoffs in the 05-06 season Son


<=======Okay Jawn Month SOOOOOON

"She got that new dick scent..." (c) Me

On this board? Let's focus it here, where you deal with this everyday.

You see all these posts. How do you feel about them?

But there are OKP's who take that shit to heart.

I guess I've been here so long,that I take everything everyone says with a grain of salt.And the only person I've ever really seen have a problem with me,would be Haj...and I baited him.And its mostly joking.

I laugh when I read that shit,but I do see that many,many cats on both sides believe that the race shit is the most important shit in the world.And its comical.

At least once a week,a white/black person will say something that will incite the other group,and lead to attacks.Me being mean to just about everyone,and me not being a retard,keeps me away from that.I think its hilarious and sad at the same time.It always turns into cripple fights.
__________________________________________________________

http://www.myspace.com/chamilton

http://maulerkoala.blogspot.com/

Bucks Playoffs in the 05-06 season Son


<=======Okay Jawn Month SOOOOOON

"She got that new dick scent..." (c) Me

>But there are OKP's who take that shit to heart.
>
>I guess I've been here so long,that I take everything everyone
>says with a grain of salt.And the only person I've ever really
>seen have a problem with me,would be Haj...and I baited
>him.And its mostly joking.

Why'd you bait him?

>
>I laugh when I read that shit,but I do see that many,many cats
>on both sides believe that the race shit is the most important
>shit in the world.And its comical.

I need them in this post. Because it's life and death for a lot of people--it's not a lighthearted thing.

>
>At least once a week,a white/black person will say something
>that will incite the other group,and lead to attacks.Me being
>mean to just about everyone,and me not being a retard,keeps me
>away from that.I think its hilarious and sad at the same
>time.It always turns into cripple fights.

What do you think people should know about the way race is discussed here on the boards--being that it gives you a small measurement of the public's attitude about it all?

People need to get over themselves,and realize that 99% of them would smile in each others faces,if they'd meet in real life.They carry the drama out here,cause there's such a small chance of any interaction with these people.Think of the RE's...what do they get...200 people?And there are like 10,000 real OKP's?I mean,they'll probably never meet.And if they do,I highly doubt they'd bring up race shit from the boards.

The live and die people are the ones who need drama of any sort because they get bored,and need some shit stirred up.They have nothing better to do,really,and wait to jump on people for saying something offensive.We've all done it at one time or another,but these people relish that.

The race posts are started and carried on by such a small number of people,that I don't see it as a problem.And the ones that do,I HIGHLY doubt they'd call people white devils in real life.Its always the same names in those posts.

Basically,it comes down to the fact that if you can't take someone saying something stupid and offensive once in awhile,I mean if board shit REALLY works you up,you can go eat a dick.That goes for everybody who perpetuates that shit.
__________________________________________________________

http://www.myspace.com/chamilton

http://maulerkoala.blogspot.com/

Bucks Playoffs in the 05-06 season Son


<=======Okay Jawn Month SOOOOOON

"She got that new dick scent..." (c) Me

I trust that all who read your replies have the capacity to be mindful of your point of view.

This is Okay Player son,not something smart like Something Awful.


__________________________________________________________

http://www.myspace.com/chamilton

http://maulerkoala.blogspot.com/

Bucks Playoffs in the 05-06 season Son


<=======Okay Jawn Month SOOOOOON

"She got that new dick scent..." (c) Me

Which is EXACTLY why I'm going to do this. I expect a LOT from ALL of you.

It's not much now, but it's not morning yet. If I see no anchor, I will march all over the first page.

but I don't know what it will do when there's pics from the BET Awards/titties/ass/titties and ass.

Plus,the people who perpetuate the bullshit will never admit it.
__________________________________________________________

http://www.myspace.com/chamilton

http://maulerkoala.blogspot.com/

Bucks Playoffs in the 05-06 season Son


<=======Okay Jawn Month SOOOOOON

"She got that new dick scent..." (c) Me

And again, I'm asking for an autonomous zone here. One without reprimand. I'm confident that this can be obtained.

I think Hulk Hogan would have meade it serious though
__________________________________________________________

http://www.myspace.com/chamilton

http://maulerkoala.blogspot.com/

Bucks Playoffs in the 05-06 season Son


<=======Okay Jawn Month SOOOOOON

"She got that new dick scent..." (c) Me

by the way...is Barrilitos really Mexican soda,or is it kinda like Chop Suey is to Chinese food?
__________________________________________________________

http://www.myspace.com/chamilton

http://maulerkoala.blogspot.com/

Bucks Playoffs in the 05-06 season Son


<=======Okay Jawn Month SOOOOOON

"She got that new dick scent..." (c) Me

are made by US companies, so they really arent Mexican...i dont know what you're talking about though, you got a picture?

http://www.barrilitos.com/

It tastes like shit though
__________________________________________________________

http://www.myspace.com/chamilton

http://maulerkoala.blogspot.com/

Bucks Playoffs in the 05-06 season Son


<=======Okay Jawn Month SOOOOOON

"She got that new dick scent..." (c) Me

...then the two of you have an understanding? Maybe?...or am I wrong?

Its serious in these streets
__________________________________________________________

http://www.myspace.com/chamilton

http://maulerkoala.blogspot.com/

Bucks Playoffs in the 05-06 season Son


<=======Okay Jawn Month SOOOOOON

"She got that new dick scent..." (c) Me

That's good.

hes REALLY a racist, as long as the white male okps dont post in race posts its all good, they're all cool until you hear their opinions. (and when i say posts about race, i mean the ones that deal with Latinos)

__________________________________________________________

http://www.myspace.com/chamilton

http://maulerkoala.blogspot.com/

Bucks Playoffs in the 05-06 season Son


<=======Okay Jawn Month SOOOOOON

"She got that new dick scent..." (c) Me

*sniffles*
Meanie.
__________________________________________________________

http://www.myspace.com/chamilton

http://maulerkoala.blogspot.com/

Bucks Playoffs in the 05-06 season Son


<=======Okay Jawn Month SOOOOOON

"She got that new dick scent..." (c) Me

but he really can't grasp this whole "graham cracker" thing
__________________________________________________________

http://www.myspace.com/chamilton

http://maulerkoala.blogspot.com/

Bucks Playoffs in the 05-06 season Son


<=======Okay Jawn Month SOOOOOON

"She got that new dick scent..." (c) Me

the fact that race is not an issue to u personally demonstrates the privilege that you have in this particular realm and the reason most people on here take it to heart i think is because they are constantly being forced to think about race whether they choose or not...just because race is an aspect in which is so deeply rooted in our culture...so yeah

**************************

in real life,it has.

I live int he countries most segregated city,where 50% of the population is black,and 90% of them live on one side of town.I also went to Milwaukee Public Schools,which are 75% black,yet graduation rates are about 60% for black kids,and upwards of 85& for white kids.I've also been talked down to because I came from that,heard in my classes,from professors,that "those MPS kids just can't handle college",while I don't say anything about it.

I've seen how race works,and by association with friends and classmates,have felt small effects of it.Now,I'm not saying I know what racism feels like,cause at the end of the day,I get school loans easier than ANY kid I went to high school with,but I've seen firsthand how race is used and abused.And it makes me sick.

Imagine being one of being 6 white kids in a 30 kid class,then imagine a college recruiter spending 95% of her time with you and the other 5 white kids,who 3 of which dropped out of high school,while the black kids in class get passed over,even though one of them is graduating from Stanford this year.Like I said,I've seen it in real life,and I KNOW its shit.

But I was talking about the boards.
__________________________________________________________

http://www.myspace.com/chamilton

http://maulerkoala.blogspot.com/

Bucks Playoffs in the 05-06 season Son


<=======Okay Jawn Month SOOOOOON

"She got that new dick scent..." (c) Me

on the boards is an example of PRIVILEGE...i cant turn off the fact that im a black woman at will esp online because the same sterotypes that hold true in the real world filter through on the internet as well...
**************************

Before you see a picture,or anything.What is your preconceived notion?

Remember when you first started posting,and critiqued some of my awful poems?What race did you think I was,or did you not think about it?
__________________________________________________________

http://www.myspace.com/chamilton

http://maulerkoala.blogspot.com/

Bucks Playoffs in the 05-06 season Son


<=======Okay Jawn Month SOOOOOON

"She got that new dick scent..." (c) Me

__________________________________________________________

http://www.myspace.com/chamilton

http://maulerkoala.blogspot.com/

Bucks Playoffs in the 05-06 season Son


<=======Okay Jawn Month SOOOOOON

"She got that new dick scent..." (c) Me

others race to be...but rather that i am always compelled to stay aware and conscious of my race and the way that i am perceived by others...
i didnt think about ur race when critiquing your poetry that long ago...but like i said im always conscious of the fact that im a black woman...
hope im makin sense
**************************

I guess.

I mean,the fact that you're a black women may never be far from your mind,but does that dictate what and how you post?My feeling is that this is a message board,and because of the faceless nature of it,it becomes a hyper reality of sorts,where it has its own by-laws and such that govern it.When I first posted here,I thought everyone was black.I came to the realization that its probably about 40/40/20 to black/white/others.With sucha far deviation on normal,everyday life,I feel as though this place is its own world so to speak,where nothing should make anyone too angry or sad.

Look at the shit InKast (rightfully) takes.Would he have said that in real life?Would it still be harped on?Or would there have been a fight?It seems to me people just come here to spout whatever.I didn't think people took it too seriously.
__________________________________________________________

http://www.myspace.com/chamilton

http://maulerkoala.blogspot.com/

Bucks Playoffs in the 05-06 season Son


<=======Okay Jawn Month SOOOOOON

"She got that new dick scent..." (c) Me

much of it is shaped around my heritage...it doesnt define me but its a large part of me...and a lot of that has been out of necessity...as for many people of color...a strong cultural identity is a tool of empowerment for me...reclaiming and owning it for myself rather than some1 placing their own labels on me i wear my shit like a badge...
**************************

Is basically what I'm asking.

In real life,I know the preconceived notions white people may have.I've made them before,just as you have about other people.

What I'm asking,in essence,is how does your racial identity mix with your posting?
__________________________________________________________

http://www.myspace.com/chamilton

http://maulerkoala.blogspot.com/

Bucks Playoffs in the 05-06 season Son


<=======Okay Jawn Month SOOOOOON

"She got that new dick scent..." (c) Me

its something thats pretty much inherent to me...race relations are important to me...thats y these posts always strike a nerve with me...
i mean im not gonna say i post like a black woman posts because i am not simply defined by only race...
**************************

but does every post where a white person says something fucking stupid lead you to anger?

What do you think about the abuse the Latinos take?
__________________________________________________________

http://www.myspace.com/chamilton

http://maulerkoala.blogspot.com/

Bucks Playoffs in the 05-06 season Son


<=======Okay Jawn Month SOOOOOON

"She got that new dick scent..." (c) Me

means that hate expressed toward any group strike a nerve with me...i can defend and speak more on issues concerning african americans because ive lived it i know it...its my experience..i consider myself to be an ally n therefore meaning i cannot simply ignore prejudice toward another group....however, a fault of my own, i realize i have much more of a difficulty to defend/sympathize with whites because as much as people dont like to hear it, whites are oppressors in our society...
*************************

Do you think its a conscious thing?
__________________________________________________________

http://www.myspace.com/chamilton

http://maulerkoala.blogspot.com/

Bucks Playoffs in the 05-06 season Son


<=======Okay Jawn Month SOOOOOON

"She got that new dick scent..." (c) Me

whether its a conscious decision or not...because a system has been built so that whites benefit consistently from these rules and such set in place...
**************************

you say whites are all oppressors,yet what about rich non-whites that do nothing to fix the system.

Yes the system is fucked up...but its not geared to help just whites.Its geared to help those who can afford its help.Take a look around.Most whites are in a bad way themselves,yet you think they are the oppressor?
__________________________________________________________

http://www.myspace.com/chamilton

http://maulerkoala.blogspot.com/

Bucks Playoffs in the 05-06 season Son


<=======Okay Jawn Month SOOOOOON

"She got that new dick scent..." (c) Me

i understand that there are poor whites...however poor whites will always have the advantage of their race in america...when removed from their environment or social status...blacks and other people will always have their color as an identifier...regardless of their education, class status and such...look at american history where whites and blacks essentially lived in the same conditions...whites were given a lil power by havin a badge handed to em and what happens? whites will always have the advantage of being able to assimilate into the hierarchical structure of our society whereas folks of color have limited accesss...due to color mostly
**************************

I'm honestly not trying to derail you,but use this example...

When I left high school,I had a 3.2 GPA,and a 28 on my ACT.My friend Presa had a 2.2 GPA,and a 21 on his ACT.He got $12,000 in scholarships,while I STILL can't get anything but a loan.And even that is hard to get because of government crackdowns and my parents making too much money.

I believe that this evens the playing field a bit,so to speak,and I actually have no problem with it.But do you believe that something like this will one day stem the tide of white people having every advantage,in your eyes?
__________________________________________________________

http://www.myspace.com/chamilton

http://maulerkoala.blogspot.com/

Bucks Playoffs in the 05-06 season Son


<=======Okay Jawn Month SOOOOOON

"She got that new dick scent..." (c) Me

your example...u answered ur own question in a way...the whole instance of ur friend receiving aid is acknowledging the legacy and th history of oppression that has renendered people without access to
institutions esp elitist ones like education...money-- is one of those resources which communities of color have been rendered without...
a score on a test and a gpa is a poor poor system to which disregards many other important social factors...it is a poor system to judge a persons potential ability to do well...esp the standardized tests...have u ever thought about the fact standardized tests are biased and how that might affect scores among different race and social classes?
and the whole deal with money... it gains access...

the playing field will never be even unless the system is broken down n rebuilt...but in the meantime it does take acknowlegment from whites to recognize and face their oppressive past and present if they really want to be proactive

**************************

doesn't reek of fighting wrongs in the worst possible way?

Do you believe things in America will ever be equal between the races?Or will we always have one that is "superior" to the others?

Or do you believe,as I do,that when America ends its time running the world,that race here won't matter,and that people will get over themselves.
__________________________________________________________

http://www.myspace.com/chamilton

http://maulerkoala.blogspot.com/

Bucks Playoffs in the 05-06 season Son


<=======Okay Jawn Month SOOOOOON

"She got that new dick scent..." (c) Me

yall may have property or other assets they dont...who knows
so ima stay away from that...
but in america, this system was never intended to be equal for all...so no i do not think that things will ever be level...
i also doubt that race will just become eradicated tho its been tried...erasing the race category off the census doesnt make the problem go away...race will always be a part of our society as long as we remain a capitalistic one...its become too intertwined within the system of capitalism...they go hand in hand
the legacy remains

**************************

And you have to believe race won't always be the deciding factor,otherwise what you want(a level playing field),is useless to try and obtain if you really believe the endgame will never occur.

I know for a fact,that people care MUCH less about race than about money,and that the poorest are also the most racist.If everyone is one day about the same on the wealth chart,race will disappear,and another social construct will take its place.
__________________________________________________________

http://www.myspace.com/chamilton

http://maulerkoala.blogspot.com/

Bucks Playoffs in the 05-06 season Son


<=======Okay Jawn Month SOOOOOON

"She got that new dick scent..." (c) Me

some doctors dont make nearly as much as u think...my father could make a helluva lot of money in his field howevr he doesnt because he squanders money and hes an entrepreneur...so yeah them being doctors doesnt mean a thing...
i do realize race is not always a deciding factor i never said i did...however i think many people down play the issue of race and trivialize it much more than they should...
and again race plays into capitalism ...to keep and maintain the system so it stays in place...so no it will not disappear is what im sayin






**************************

My Dad was a journalist and my Mom works as a telecom supervisor.

And you're right,race is used to keep the system together,but I don't believe white people are the oppressors...I think the rich are.Oprah has a lot more "rights" in this country than you or I ever will.
__________________________________________________________

http://www.myspace.com/chamilton

http://maulerkoala.blogspot.com/

Bucks Playoffs in the 05-06 season Son


<=======Okay Jawn Month SOOOOOON

"She got that new dick scent..." (c) Me

no amount of money can guarantee my safety ...
esp. if i were to have loads of cash at this age id be interrogated as to where i got the money rather than being protected...that whole money protects u from the ills of racism argument doent fly

and this issue is still being over simplified...i think its because its late and im sleepy...this is losing its steam...
**************************

but if you have money,you can do what you want.I don't think that's disputable.
__________________________________________________________

http://www.myspace.com/chamilton

http://maulerkoala.blogspot.com/

Bucks Playoffs in the 05-06 season Son


<=======Okay Jawn Month SOOOOOON

"She got that new dick scent..." (c) Me

really...money does not open all doors for people of color...glass ceiling theory is alive and well...and yeah at this point i dont feel like im being heard so im goin to bed...paz
**************************

But I've also seen that money begets money,and that moneyed people watch their own interests much more than they watch someone's skin color.

That's the sadness of humanity...and the reason Communism never worked.People are fucking greedy,and always will be.Greed supercedes everything.
__________________________________________________________

http://www.myspace.com/chamilton

http://maulerkoala.blogspot.com/

Bucks Playoffs in the 05-06 season Son


<=======Okay Jawn Month SOOOOOON

"She got that new dick scent..." (c) Me

I'm a young black man who came from an upper middle class family, and currently attends law school. Yet I still get pulled over by the cops for bullshit, still get those looks from white passers-by, still get talked down to as if I barely can read, and still dealt w/ overt racism while growing up (getting in fights w/ other whites about being called nigger). I've seen all that first hand, as well as friends of mine in the same boat, and in no way did our bank accounts save us from these experiences. White people still have the white privilege, but now they have to choose to accept it instead of it being thrust upon them.

As Mos Def so eloquently illustrates in his work of art, "Mr. Nigga", a black person with money is still a nigger.

is someone who benefits from oppression automatically an oppressor?
............................

i'm not good at making decisions...or am i?

If you're not helping to solve the problem aren't you as much to blame?

about three years ago, i took a class on whiteness and understanding the history of racial formation in the united states. one of the main things that i drew from that class is that whiteness in the u.s. has become the norm and people of other ethnicities/races are exactly that: other. white is normal and we're (black, brown, red, yellow) the other.

so, i've always been conscious of race. i've always been racialized. i've always been the other. yeah, i went to a school with a lot of mexican kids, but my teachers weren't mexican. we didn't read about any chicanos in history class. all our books were by white and (some) black authors. we barely even covered the fact that the city and state we were in once were part of mexico!

like mizzmyteeafrodytee wrote, everything i do, see and hear everything as a chicana through a chicana lens and through chicana ears. i don't have the privilege to stop thinking about race, or to not have people assume i understand the lingua franca.

i'm ranting. so, i'll stop for now.

main point: my race/ethnicity is something i never stop thinking about, being conscious of, and acting on.
_______________________________________________

i ♥ tequila (since 1981)

http://citlalli31.diaryland.com
http://blogging.la
http://flickr.com/photos/cindylu
http://www.myspace.com/cindylu

On the boards, in particular?

i don't know. there are a lot of allies on here.

i try to ignore the ones who don't sit well with me.
_______________________________________________

i ♥ tequila (since 1981)

http://citlalli31.diaryland.com
http://blogging.la
http://flickr.com/photos/cindylu
http://www.myspace.com/cindylu

being a Chicana wouldn't be seen as a problem out there.Are Hispanics really looked upon that shitty out there?Cause I thought being like 50% of the population would dead that.
__________________________________________________________

http://www.myspace.com/chamilton

http://maulerkoala.blogspot.com/

Bucks Playoffs in the 05-06 season Son


<=======Okay Jawn Month SOOOOOON

"She got that new dick scent..." (c) Me

for example she says "i went to a school with a lot of mexican kids, but my teachers weren't mexican. we didn't read about any chicanos in history class. all our books were by white and (some) black authors."

Haj talked a bit about it once,but I just don't see how there isn't a powerful Hispanic bloc.I would think that with such overwhelming numbers,they could force schools into teaching their own history.
__________________________________________________________

http://www.myspace.com/chamilton

http://maulerkoala.blogspot.com/

Bucks Playoffs in the 05-06 season Son


<=======Okay Jawn Month SOOOOOON

"She got that new dick scent..." (c) Me

things are still shitty. the whole issue of undocumented immigrants is a really volatile subject out here. there are people who think california is becoming a "third world" cesspool because of all the latino and asian immigrants.

also, the recent fights in schools have really strained black and brown relations in some parts of the city.

i kind of "came of age" in a tough time for race relations in california. we had the uprisings (l.a. riots) in 1992. proposition 187 in 1994 sought to eliminate social services & education for undocumented immigrants. then there was the elimination of affirmative action in 1995/1996.

i live in l.a. we're 40 percent of the population, but still grossly underrepresented in the top ranks.
_______________________________________________

i ♥ tequila (since 1981)

http://citlalli31.diaryland.com
http://blogging.la
http://flickr.com/photos/cindylu
http://www.myspace.com/cindylu

Money?
General lack of caring?
Lack of education?
Racsim?

__________________________________________________________

http://www.myspace.com/chamilton

http://maulerkoala.blogspot.com/

Bucks Playoffs in the 05-06 season Son


<=======Okay Jawn Month SOOOOOON

"She got that new dick scent..." (c) Me

i wrote a little about latinos (specifically mexicans) and voting
on my blog: http://citlalli31.diaryland.com/june92005.html

in terms of schooling, it's a whole host of factors for our general low attainment. and we know that with more education comes higher incomes and better political representation.
_______________________________________________

i ♥ tequila (since 1981)

http://citlalli31.diaryland.com
http://blogging.la
http://flickr.com/photos/cindylu
http://www.myspace.com/cindylu

I don't know what Chicano graduation rates are,but is that the main factor in voting,do you think?
__________________________________________________________

http://www.myspace.com/chamilton

http://maulerkoala.blogspot.com/

Bucks Playoffs in the 05-06 season Son


<=======Okay Jawn Month SOOOOOON

"She got that new dick scent..." (c) Me

college and high school grads are more likely to vote

but i think a bigger factor is that there are a lot of mexicans out there who are permanent residents and are eligible to become citizens. for some reason, they won't vote. and the ones who are citizens don't vote for other reasons.

graduation rates differ across the nation. for latinos in california, the figure i've heard most recently:

100 students begin the 9th grade
57 graduate high school
31 of those will go on to higher education (but most will be in a 2-year community college)
14 of those students will earn a college degree after 6 years (both AA and BA)
only 4 of those 100 students will have a Bachelor's degree.
_______________________________________________

i ♥ tequila (since 1981)

http://citlalli31.diaryland.com
http://blogging.la
http://flickr.com/photos/cindylu
http://www.myspace.com/cindylu

In MPS schools,they always say getting a job,or going to a tech. school.While in the suburbs,they stress college and degrees.Could that be a problem for Latinos...that there's a general ignorance about college and what education can bring?
__________________________________________________________

http://www.myspace.com/chamilton

http://maulerkoala.blogspot.com/

Bucks Playoffs in the 05-06 season Son


<=======Okay Jawn Month SOOOOOON

"She got that new dick scent..." (c) Me

what with antonio as the new mayor, alex padilla as president of city council and fabian nunez as speaker of the assembly.

not that that means the power transition is complete, but chicanos are beginning to run things for real in the golden state.

"Also, it's good to see that Common's trying again, even if he does keep slipping into that MTV AIDS commercial flow." ~ Byron Crawford on "The Corner": http://www.byroncrawford.com/2005/04/common_be_album.html

http://www.myspace.com/themanthemyth

I think it's necessary.

If I really had somethin to say, I would.

"Also, it's good to see that Common's trying again, even if he does keep slipping into that MTV AIDS commercial flow." ~ Byron Crawford on "The Corner": http://www.byroncrawford.com/2005/04/common_be_album.html

http://www.myspace.com/themanthemyth

OKP in general (and perhaps GD in particular) sometimes serves as a playground for ppl's personalities and imaginations. And I don't judge, I give certain sides of me a little more room to run here than offline. It's whatever.

Yes, racial issues tend to get a little ridiculous and out of proportion around here. But doesn't everything else? Sometimes I sit here and think that if some of these ppl act toward other races like they post, how could they function in society? And since they apparently continue to do so, I have to assume that they manage okay out in the world.

Okp, then, serves the same purpose for them on racial issues as it does in other things. And is that really unhealthy? Probably not. The only negative I can think of is that it might negatively impact others' opinions, but okp shouldn't be in the business of protecting ppl with poor critical thinking skills from themselves.

Recap: Okp serves as a place for ppl to vent their racial frustrations sometimes, and I don't view that as necessarily a bad thing.

"Also, it's good to see that Common's trying again, even if he does keep slipping into that MTV AIDS commercial flow." ~ Byron Crawford on "The Corner": http://www.byroncrawford.com/2005/04/common_be_album.html

http://www.myspace.com/themanthemyth

...when you get into something like, say, the Janey affair on Tuesday. So many examples in which I've seen REAL venom--a venom I recognize as a black man and a human being.

I don't discount your point of view, but the lines between therapy and genuine vitriol blur too much here. TOO much.

But in practical terms, how would you go about limiting that without some pretty strict board policing? As I said, you can't protect ppl from themselves.

"Also, it's good to see that Common's trying again, even if he does keep slipping into that MTV AIDS commercial flow." ~ Byron Crawford on "The Corner": http://www.byroncrawford.com/2005/04/common_be_album.html

http://www.myspace.com/themanthemyth

It's why I won't leave these boards...it's why I won't let y'all rest with my Dave Chappelle rants and shit.

Cause what you're doing is roughly equivalent to trying to get cows to stop saying "moo".

"Also, it's good to see that Common's trying again, even if he does keep slipping into that MTV AIDS commercial flow." ~ Byron Crawford on "The Corner": http://www.byroncrawford.com/2005/04/common_be_album.html

http://www.myspace.com/themanthemyth

...get as many cows to say "moo" as possible.

I'm a licensed Poetic Terrorist.

"Also, it's good to see that Common's trying again, even if he does keep slipping into that MTV AIDS commercial flow." ~ Byron Crawford on "The Corner": http://www.byroncrawford.com/2005/04/common_be_album.html

http://www.myspace.com/themanthemyth

:-)

tableanddreaming: i kind of want to post in that race post
tableanddreaming: ...
cflartey: what do you want to post in that race post?
tableanddreaming: i wanna ask why white americans seem to have such low self esteem
tableanddreaming: compared to black americans
tableanddreaming: that sounds ignorant though
swinger3421: they dont need to assert pride in who they are
tableanddreaming: yeah but its not that
swinger3421: it would seem in bad taste
tableanddreaming: im not talking about who they are
swinger3421: what then?
tableanddreaming: white americans have low self esteem
EyeHateCrackers: assex
tableanddreaming: the ones i met in the south did anyway
tableanddreaming: i spent like substantial amounts of time around the white kids and the black kids
EyeHateCrackers: lol
tableanddreaming: and the white kids were so fucking mopey
tableanddreaming: eh
swinger3421: iono
tableanddreaming: quixotic will probably tear me a new asshole if i post that
tableanddreaming: so im going to refrain
Beh0ldme has entered the room.
tableanddreaming: actually ill probably post that shit anyway

http://lindenwold.blogspot.com/

throwback avy.

I've asked them to review my post carefully, and to be mindful of the fact that I don't want any of this "asshole-tearing" here.

We will not talk AT each other here. Should it deteriorate in that direction, I will have this post deleted.

Therefore, I encourage whoever-that-is to post.

http://lindenwold.blogspot.com/

throwback avy.

And just...DO IT.

Whatever it is you wanna say.

thats what i wanted to say

http://lindenwold.blogspot.com/

throwback avy.

Just wondering if the others will show.

The thing is, I don't want YOU to worry about reprimand in here. You know what I'm saying?

i dont really care though

so we're good

http://lindenwold.blogspot.com/

throwback avy.

And I want that FOR you.

But, yeah...we're good.

thanks.

http://lindenwold.blogspot.com/

throwback avy.

Julie can call me Chris, for the record. As that is my name.

I don't think it's just that white americans have low self-esteem... really anybody might, it's just expressed in different ways imo.

people across the board deal with their feelings in different ways. some have learned to express their unhappiness/lack of self-esteem outright, some seem to mask it with an over-the-top, "i have all the self esteem in the world" personality, and still others deal with it by lashing out at others to take the attention off themselves.

especially as it pertains to youth, i think the perception that julie shared (and i've heard it before, especially in terms of girls' body images) can actually do a real disservice if it's taken as fact.

As a southerner, showing Self Esteem could be misunderstood as White Supremacy.

So I know alot of white people who have trouble talking about themselves proudly around black people. They get nervous and downplay everything. But alot of the time, I tell them be happy for what you are and who you are.

There is a thin line between pride and arrogance.

Blacks struggle with it too. Some of the "afrocentric" heads take the black thing too far. I'm proud to be black and will say it whenever pertinent. But everything doesnt boil down to race.

Now the true issue, is that race is starting to take a backseat to money. I think nowadays upper-class whites (who were and still are the majority of the class) are seeing minorities as allies. Upper Class blacks can be just as bad as upper class whites when it comes down to the bottom line.

And those who dont have (aka the have-nots) will always get the shaft, just in all honesty, they get all the breaks because of the way society is built.

The middle class (which is where the blacks are predominantly represented {dont care what the statistics say}) inherit all of the problems. Similar to what a poster said earlier, those with parents that work get loans, the rich get scholarships and the poor get subsidized/grant/scholarships.

I remember actually telling my parents to split up so I can be eligible for a scholarship.

So race is a problem but we really need to get a Collective Barganing Agreement going and get some revenue sharing cause thats where the problems lie.

come back here
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I LOVE





BE GREAT

If my request is honored, you will see this post again. For a week. And I hope you won't be reluctant to participate.

I'm going to bed.

and how they feel about race, the posts you have to go into are the ones that deal with Latinos, thats where people show their true colors and you see who they really are.

no one is gonna come out and say "i hate black people" in a post about relations between White and Black people, they're not gonna do that here...but when theres a post about language, immigration, or anything that deals with Latinos, the hate comes out, thats how you learn who people really are here...thats where lots of people that i thought were pretty cool have disappointed me.

'cause they way i see it, if you're not ready to stand up for any type of racism or discrimination, then dont stand up for anything, 'cause you're just worried about yourself and what affects you, and i cant respect that.

Mexicans Look Slow post.

I took it as a joke without reading through it,and made a post about it that I guess people took serious.Shit,in the Slow post,I fucking said y'all suck at basketball the whole time.
__________________________________________________________

http://www.myspace.com/chamilton

http://maulerkoala.blogspot.com/

Bucks Playoffs in the 05-06 season Son


<=======Okay Jawn Month SOOOOOON

"She got that new dick scent..." (c) Me

On THIS occasion.

This post doesn't imply that there aren't more things to discuss on all sides ofthe spectrum. But I'll be DAMNED if I don't get BOMBARDED with slur after fucking slur being tossed between...blk and white OKP's. In plain view, every single day.

I'm refuting the possibility of people "never" doing something. I'm issuing a challenge with this post. I want a few people to really grab their cajones like a man...or woman...and SPEAK.

...to open your own Temporary Autonomous Zone and allow people to speak. Rationally and calmly.

part of the reason i keep coming back to okp is because i feel a responsibility to balance all the misperceptions of latinos and mexicans (especially!) with some sense.
_______________________________________________

i ♥ tequila (since 1981)

http://citlalli31.diaryland.com
http://blogging.la
http://flickr.com/photos/cindylu
http://www.myspace.com/cindylu

...doing the same for my group of interest. Sometimes blatant, sometimes subversive.

Anyhow, the Black Power Fist put me over the top. I felt that it was time to pull this idea back out.

I would venture that we both work towards understanding.

Do you have a link?
__________________________________________________________

http://www.myspace.com/chamilton

http://maulerkoala.blogspot.com/

Bucks Playoffs in the 05-06 season Son


<=======Okay Jawn Month SOOOOOON

"She got that new dick scent..." (c) Me

http://board.okayplayer.com/okp.php?az=show_topic&forum=4&topic_id=845928&mesg_id=845928&listing_type=search

AND YES, READERS, I'M BRINGING IT UP AGAIN.

__________________________________________________________

http://www.myspace.com/chamilton

http://maulerkoala.blogspot.com/

Bucks Playoffs in the 05-06 season Son


<=======Okay Jawn Month SOOOOOON

"She got that new dick scent..." (c) Me

We'll see.

__________________________________________________________

http://www.myspace.com/chamilton

http://maulerkoala.blogspot.com/

Bucks Playoffs in the 05-06 season Son


<=======Okay Jawn Month SOOOOOON

"She got that new dick scent..." (c) Me

lol
__________________________________________________________

http://www.myspace.com/chamilton

http://maulerkoala.blogspot.com/

Bucks Playoffs in the 05-06 season Son


<=======Okay Jawn Month SOOOOOON

"She got that new dick scent..." (c) Me

but I agree with you on that...funny thing is folks like afrikankween and others I thought had issues with latinos actually surprised me in a positive way. Strange how the people you think got your back eventually let the truth show

Granted, I'm not in GD all the time, but is hate for Latinos really that deep? Where does it come from blacks, whites, Asians? Enlighten me (no sarcasm).

Puerto Ricans hate Mexicans
Cubans hate everyone
Everyone hates Mexicans

etc...

I never see "Latinos" as one thing...when someone says "Latinos", I think they're from upper-Canada or something. To think so many diff cultures and diff. types of people are from this universal, distinct group is mad vague to me.

Maybe that's just Florida.

Although I think compared to a lot of communities OKP is pretty enlightened race-wise (although recenty I've seen a few posts that would seem to prove me wrong) but any discourse moving the conversation forward is valuable imo.

I think most white-OKPs understand that usage of the n-word is unacceptable (we see you Flavariety, so do better)... at least here on the boards. I'd hope this gets carried through into real life as well (I can't imagine that it doesn't for most folks, but you never know).

I guess the most violently contested front that I see around these parts is the inter-racial love/dating/relationship thing. Part of this problem is that it is a complex stew of issues, although the two "purist" extremes are quite simple (overly so, imo)

stick to your own kind

or

you can't help who you fall in love with

in between we've got a bunch of issues, from rapist slavemasters to self-hatred to fetishization/objectification to cultural misunderstandings etc.

As someone who has been involved in IRs more often than not, I have to say that for me these issues don't really exist anymore within my personal interactions, although I would deal with them if needed with someone new. Anyone engaging in an IR should be prepared to confront and conquer these issues lest they contribute to them.

The other (not quite so) big issue I see is separatism vs. integration. While I understand the impulse behind separatism, I think it's a losing battle, however noble. I feel that as a species we need to look to what our future holds while respecting and honoring the past (and learning from its mistakes). To me the ultimate goal should be world citizenship and equality (utopian as it may sound) and I feel we can only get there together.

http://board.okayplayer.com/okp.php?az=show_topic&forum=5&topic_id=238341&mesg_id=238341&page=
__________________________________________________________

http://www.myspace.com/chamilton

http://maulerkoala.blogspot.com/

Bucks Playoffs in the 05-06 season Son


<=======Okay Jawn Month SOOOOOON

"She got that new dick scent..." (c) Me

>http://board.okayplayer.com/okp.php?az=show_topic&forum=5&topic_id=238341&mesg_id=238341&page=


I hope to see the elements BEHIND this discussed.

than in the general population, percentage-wise. Of course, that isn't saying much. I'd also say that there's less awareness here than in the circles I keep socially.

And the awareness on here is mostly due to people just trying to fit in.Half the fuckers here have said some DUMB ASS SHIT when they thought no one was looking on the boards.
__________________________________________________________

http://www.myspace.com/chamilton

http://maulerkoala.blogspot.com/

Bucks Playoffs in the 05-06 season Son


<=======Okay Jawn Month SOOOOOON

"She got that new dick scent..." (c) Me

most of the dumb-assed comments I see (or that I remember) around here can be attributed to ignorance, but if it persists after correction/information is presented you have to call it what it is.

Nevertheless, the percentages here still beat the real world imo.

Of the message not being effectively received?

The problem here is the volume of messages (and usernames) is so high that it's often hard to keep straight who has said what in the past unless they are A-list.

>Although I think compared to a lot of communities OKP is
>pretty enlightened race-wise (although recenty I've seen a few
>posts that would seem to prove me wrong) but any discourse
>moving the conversation forward is valuable imo.

Thank you. That's all I want.


>I think most white-OKPs understand that usage of the n-word is
>unacceptable (we see you Flavariety, so do better)... at least
>here on the boards. I'd hope this gets carried through into
>real life as well (I can't imagine that it doesn't for most
>folks, but you never know).

I wanna see if we can do it.

>I guess the most violently contested front that I see around
>these parts is the inter-racial love/dating/relationship
>thing. Part of this problem is that it is a complex stew of
>issues, although the two "purist" extremes are quite simple
>(overly so, imo)
>
>stick to your own kind
>
>or
>
>you can't help who you fall in love with

THIS stuff...I want people to tell the rest of the story. I want people to explain all the "whys" and "why nots" in their head, along the lines of that topic.


>in between we've got a bunch of issues, from rapist
>slavemasters to self-hatred to fetishization/objectification
>to cultural misunderstandings etc.

Let's see how far we can go with it, I say. Bring it all in.

>
>As someone who has been involved in IRs more often than not, I
>have to say that for me these issues don't really exist
>anymore within my personal interactions, although I would deal
>with them if needed with someone new. Anyone engaging in an IR
>should be prepared to confront and conquer these issues lest
>they contribute to them.
>
>The other (not quite so) big issue I see is separatism vs.
>integration. While I understand the impulse behind separatism,
>I think it's a losing battle, however noble. I feel that as a
>species we need to look to what our future holds while
>respecting and honoring the past (and learning from its
>mistakes). To me the ultimate goal should be world citizenship
>and equality (utopian as it may sound) and I feel we can only
>get there together.

All your thoughts are duly noted. Thank you for being honest about these things.

Just in case you were wondering.

of what their people have done over the centuries to other peoples?

I mean do you really feel guilty about it? And if so, do you still take advantage of your priviledge?

If you don't feel guilt why not? and I don't believe the whole "it wasn't me" excuse ANNNNNNNND- why don't you feel guilt?

How do you feel when you look around you and realize that there are a people who are severely downpressed with no real hopes of the tides ever changing unless there is a mass holocaust...because of the actions of your foreparents?

there is a whole sect of people who are extinct and a whole other sect where they are so downpressed that there is literally no hope left.

I am apart of the group with no hope left. I try to come to terms to what has happened to my people, but I can't. i choose not to think about it, I can hardly watch any movies or shows that deal with the issue.

I would rather just ignore it and keep on moving, focus more on myself and my own family than my own people. I am but one person and I cannot help everyone on the level that I would like to...that's not anyone's fault it's my decision...

but I'm just wondering...how do you feel when you look around you and realize that I could actually be where I am because of the blood sweat and tears of a whole entire people?

Is it just survival of the fittest/most manipulative? is it god's will? Is it the luck of the draw? what is it?

What do you think makes people look at you and me and think that you are better?

How does that make you feel?

How does it make you feel when others say you have no soul and that you are a heartless and cold people? A reptilian race?
Do you ever look into yourself and wonder if it's true?

hate monger's have long preached that you have no rythm and no heart no sense of family or of the collective divine and physical powers---
do you believe it?

Do you look at other cultures and wonder where is yours? where is your connection with the divine?

uhm yeah I'm done for now.

My family didn't get here til around 1910 or so,and when they did,they were poor ass Irish immigrants who spoke very little English.

I think we all have enough in our lives to be sorry for and regret,taking on mistakes we had nothing to do with isn't helpful.They should be righed,but they shouldn't be dwelled on other than the fact that the same mistakes need to be stopped from ever happening again.
__________________________________________________________

http://www.myspace.com/chamilton

http://maulerkoala.blogspot.com/

Bucks Playoffs in the 05-06 season Son


<=======Okay Jawn Month SOOOOOON

"She got that new dick scent..." (c) Me

for and even the scotts too...

as far as feeling guilty that's understandable...do you feel guilty for the priviledge you are given in now time though?

Don't you feel a little remorse doe for just the many bodies that were thrown overboard and fed to the sharks during the middle passage?

but maybe because I have no direct connection to it,I feel no remorse over it.And I admit that I've led a priveleged life,but its not like my family made itself off the backs of slavery or holding others down.

My grandfather was a coal mining engineer,and my mother's adoptive parents came from a line of butchers.I may seem callous,but I just don't feel guilty for the middle passage because I didn't perpetrate it.

Its like asking a Japanese kid whose family has been in America for 100 years to feel bad about the Rape of Nanking.

And I will laugh in the face of anyone who says whites aren't human...
__________________________________________________________

http://www.myspace.com/chamilton

http://maulerkoala.blogspot.com/

Bucks Playoffs in the 05-06 season Son


<=======Okay Jawn Month SOOOOOON

"She got that new dick scent..." (c) Me

hardworking or not however your family was...you receive certain priviledges from it, so don't you feel guilty taking advantage of that priviledge knowing how many children, women and men had to be tortured so you could get it?

Honestly if I were you I would. like i would decline a job if I knew i was getting it just because of my colour...

But i'm that type of person in general...I want what I get because of my own worth not the worth someone else gave me or the worth my people gave me through their own transgressions.

That's why I ask.

And I probably never will.Especially since I plan on going into environmental law.That area is the hardest for a white,middle class male to get to,simply because of the old boys network,and affirmative action.

I have no connections into law,and I have no help from having to come from a second tier law school cause I couldn't afford to go to a Princeton,Yale,or Stanford.

I'm not saying that affirmative action is bad,because I believe that its probably the most important government institution in the last 50 years or so,but I believe it puts me at a disadvantage to a minority candidate.I'd have to be that much better than everyone else.And I will be,so I'm not complaining.
__________________________________________________________

http://www.myspace.com/chamilton

http://maulerkoala.blogspot.com/

Bucks Playoffs in the 05-06 season Son


<=======Okay Jawn Month SOOOOOON

"She got that new dick scent..." (c) Me

meaning, if you were the minority then affirmative action also works for you.


But anywho...what about just the priviledge of not being the one who is feared or who is automatically assumed to be the bad apple...etc...


what about that priviledge of walking into a store and not being followed? Or not being ignored at a car lot? etc....

for being a young,college age male.So I'm obviously gonna steal.I get ignored at a car lot because of that same deal.When I bought my car,I had to walk up to the saleman and practically flash a credit report to get a test drive.

I know you're talking about later in life,but for me right now,I don't know what that feels like,so I am in no condition to comment on it.However,I know that if that ever did happen for me,it will be total bullshit,and I want no part of it.I'm no better than the next person...just smarter and better looking.
__________________________________________________________

http://www.myspace.com/chamilton

http://maulerkoala.blogspot.com/

Bucks Playoffs in the 05-06 season Son


<=======Okay Jawn Month SOOOOOON

"She got that new dick scent..." (c) Me

but no...i guess, it's the same thing...but it doesn't feel that way.

HATE
__________________________________________________________

http://www.myspace.com/chamilton

http://maulerkoala.blogspot.com/

Bucks Playoffs in the 05-06 season Son


<=======Okay Jawn Month SOOOOOON

"She got that new dick scent..." (c) Me

>I'm not saying that affirmative action is bad,because I
>believe that its probably the most important government
>institution in the last 50 years or so,but I believe it puts
>me at a disadvantage to a minority candidate.I'd have to be
>that much better than everyone else.And I will be,so I'm not
>complaining.


But realistically, I don't think AA will affect you much if you're already a good candidate for the schools you've applied to.

Despite AA, minorities are still severaly underrepresented in law schools. You're primary competition is going to be other white people and asians

Its just that my main comp already has big advantages over someone like me.

every white person that i've asked pretty much says the same thing. *shrugs*

I guess that's why no one tries harder to right those wrongs.

My family has no connection to it at all.But for others who do,and don't want to believe it,and brush it off,they're fucking morons.There's no way slavery and Jim Crow just happened.They were perpetuated.
__________________________________________________________

http://www.myspace.com/chamilton

http://maulerkoala.blogspot.com/

Bucks Playoffs in the 05-06 season Son


<=======Okay Jawn Month SOOOOOON

"She got that new dick scent..." (c) Me

You sound kinda mad right durr...

i'm just asking...yo I'm cool witchu yo!

we cool ohmie...you my ace ohmie...remember we got like the same fabric of thought and feeling going on...

damn...i'ma get you the peace pipe ohmes....

These head in the sand white people,whose families directly benefitted from that shit,yet refuse to talk about it,should eat a dick.Its that sort of ignorance and unacountability that leads to the preservation of injustice.

Look at the IRA and the English.The IRA got its head of steam from Bloody Sunday.They retaliated hundreds of times over,using that one event for justification.The British kept cracking down,and the IRA responded.Once the English let up,so did the IRA.That's cause and react.By the same token,if we deny that many in this country reached their social status directly from this,it will be perpetuated again and again,in different forms towards different groups.
__________________________________________________________

http://www.myspace.com/chamilton

http://maulerkoala.blogspot.com/

Bucks Playoffs in the 05-06 season Son


<=======Okay Jawn Month SOOOOOON

"She got that new dick scent..." (c) Me

>of what their people have done over the centuries to other
>peoples?

I have felt guilt about that... still do sometimes. I've been ashamed to be white, although I try not to be anymore because no amount of shame or guilt can undo what my people have done.

>I mean do you really feel guilty about it? And if so, do you
>still take advantage of your priviledge?

I was under the impression that white privelege can't be turned off... I guess I could talk to every individual I deal with and instruct them to treat me as if I was not white, but I don't think it would work.

>How do you feel when you look around you and realize that
>there are a people who are severely downpressed with no real
>hopes of the tides ever changing unless there is a mass
>holocaust...because of the actions of your foreparents?

The future isn't written, I don't share your negative view of it to be honest. See below however.

>there is a whole sect of people who are extinct and a whole
>other sect where they are so downpressed that there is
>literally no hope left.

How do I feel? Honestly, it's too huge to even wrap emotions around. Sad and angry I suppose. Regretful, definitely, but hopeless to do anything about it.

>Is it just survival of the fittest/most manipulative? is it
>god's will? Is it the luck of the draw? what is it?

It's luck of the draw I suppose. If contact between West Africa and Europe had been strongly made a mere 50 years or so earlier (or perhaps later), or if the horse had been native to the Americas, the world would be completely different. Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. We've seen it in every society from the beginning of time. The story of Adam and Eve eating the apple isn't the story of the birth of mankind, it's the story of the birth of civilization.

>What do you think makes people look at you and me and think
>that you are better?

ignorance.

>How does that make you feel?

sad for them.

>How does it make you feel when others say you have no soul and
>that you are a heartless and cold people? A reptilian race?
>Do you ever look into yourself and wonder if it's true?

That makes me a bit sad sometimes, other times I laugh it off. I know it to be untrue.

>hate monger's have long preached that you have no rythm and no
>heart no sense of family or of the collective divine and
>physical powers---
>do you believe it?

no.

>Do you look at other cultures and wonder where is yours? where
>is your connection with the divine?

no, I've got that stuff covered.

>
>I have felt guilt about that... still do sometimes. I've been
>ashamed to be white, although I try not to be anymore because
>no amount of shame or guilt can undo what my people have
>done.

true I like that answer. honest.
>>I mean do you really feel guilty about it? And if so, do you
>>still take advantage of your priviledge?
>
>I was under the impression that white privelege can't be
>turned off... I guess I could talk to every individual I deal
>with and instruct them to treat me as if I was not white, but
>I don't think it would work.


Very true.

>>How do you feel when you look around you and realize that
>>there are a people who are severely downpressed with no real
>>hopes of the tides ever changing unless there is a mass
>>holocaust...because of the actions of your foreparents?
>
>The future isn't written, I don't share your negative view of
>it to be honest. See below however.


Yeah it isn't written, but I don't necessarily see it as a negative view, i see it more as a realist view.

>>there is a whole sect of people who are extinct and a whole
>>other sect where they are so downpressed that there is
>>literally no hope left.
>
>How do I feel? Honestly, it's too huge to even wrap emotions
>around. Sad and angry I suppose. Regretful, definitely, but
>hopeless to do anything about it.

Ok. so now you see why my view is as such.

>>Is it just survival of the fittest/most manipulative? is it
>>god's will? Is it the luck of the draw? what is it?
>
>It's luck of the draw I suppose. If contact between West
>Africa and Europe had been strongly made a mere 50 years or so
>earlier (or perhaps later), or if the horse had been native to
>the Americas, the world would be completely different. Power
>corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. We've seen
>it in every society from the beginning of time. The story of
>Adam and Eve eating the apple isn't the story of the birth of
>mankind, it's the story of the birth of civilization.


Actually I do remember reading that it's the story of them finding out about sex. buuuuuuuuut it was the beginning of an era.
>>What do you think makes people look at you and me and think
>>that you are better?
>
>ignorance.

can't argue with that.

>>How does that make you feel?
>
>sad for them.

that either.

>>How does it make you feel when others say you have no soul
>and
>>that you are a heartless and cold people? A reptilian race?
>>Do you ever look into yourself and wonder if it's true?
>
>That makes me a bit sad sometimes, other times I laugh it off.
>I know it to be untrue.

yeah it kinda makes me sad too, i do wonder sometimes if it could really be true when i marvel at the things that happen around me. But i know better. I believe that things happen for a reason although unknown to us at the time, only time can and will tell.

>>The future isn't written, I don't share your negative view
>of
>>it to be honest. See below however.
>
>
>Yeah it isn't written, but I don't necessarily see it as a
>negative view, i see it more as a realist view.
>
>>>there is a whole sect of people who are extinct and a whole
>>>other sect where they are so downpressed that there is
>>>literally no hope left.
>>
>>How do I feel? Honestly, it's too huge to even wrap emotions
>>around. Sad and angry I suppose. Regretful, definitely, but
>>hopeless to do anything about it.
>
>Ok. so now you see why my view is as such.

The reason I pointed out your view as negative is because it cites "no hope for the future". I believe that things can get better (although the current climate does seem bleak).

>> The story of
>>Adam and Eve eating the apple isn't the story of the birth
>of
>>mankind, it's the story of the birth of civilization.
>
>
>Actually I do remember reading that it's the story of them
>finding out about sex. buuuuuuuuut it was the beginning of an
>era.

Definitely don't want to postjack, but it's called the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Sex is an animal impulse... people have had sex since before they were people. The bible dates the earth at about 10,000 years, which is really how old civilization is, roughly. We had been human for probably 40,000 years already at that point.

>>>How does it make you feel when others say you have no soul
>>and
>>>that you are a heartless and cold people? A reptilian race?
>>>Do you ever look into yourself and wonder if it's true?
>>
>>That makes me a bit sad sometimes, other times I laugh it
>off.
>>I know it to be untrue.
>
>yeah it kinda makes me sad too, i do wonder sometimes if it
>could really be true when i marvel at the things that happen
>around me. But i know better. I believe that things happen for
>a reason although unknown to us at the time, only time can and
>will tell.

Well, imo all we can do is live well and extend kindness to others, hopefully share knowledge and increase understanding.

>Definitely don't want to postjack, but it's called the fruit
>of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Sex is an animal
>impulse... people have had sex since before they were people.
>The bible dates the earth at about 10,000 years, which is
>really how old civilization is, roughly. We had been human for
>probably 40,000 years already at that point.
>

the bible dates our civilization to be about 5600 years old...

the pyramids were built abt 11000 years ago

Most artifacts now date homosapien to be about 40,000 years old

but the first civilization on this planet began about 450,000 years ago and it wasn't human or terra astral.

the tree was called as such but however to find your truth you have to learn the old testament.

Throughout the old testament the term "to know" is used to denote sexual intercourse, mostly between a man and a woman for the purpose of having children. the tale of adam and eve is the story of a crucial step in Man's development: the acquisition of the ability to procreate.

As the serpent predicted, by partaking of the tree of knowing they had become - in sexual matters- "as the deity knowing good and evil."

If this meant only that Man had become to recognize that having sex with animals was uncivilized or evil, why were Adam and eve punished ofr giving up sodomy? the old testament is replete with admonitions against sodomy and it is inconceivable that the learning of a virtue would cause divine wrath.

The "knowing" that Man obtained against the wishes of the deity----or one of the deities------must have been a more profound nature. it was something good for man, but something his creators di dnot wish him to have.

we have to read carefully between the lines of the curse against Eve to grasp the meaning of the event:

"And to the woman He said:
i will greatly multiply thy suffering by the pregnancy
In suffering shalt thou bear children, yet to thy mate shall be thy desire
And the adam named his wife eve for she was the mother of all who lived."

This indeed is the momentuous event transmitted to us in the biblical tale; as long as Adam and eve lacked "knowing" they lived in the Garden of eden without any offspirng. having obtained "knowing" Eve gained the ability and (pain) to become pregnant and bear children. Only after teh couple had acquired this "knowing", Adam knew his wife and she conceived cain.

Perhaps another line would be : Genesis 3:22- And the most high said "behold man has become like us, knowing both good and evil"

Meaning now man is able to procreate like us and as such has the knowledge to now give life and take it away.

>of what their people have done over the centuries to other
>peoples?

not at all. i mean it sucks, but i dont feel guilty about it.

>I mean do you really feel guilty about it? And if so, do you
>still take advantage of your priviledge?

i think its impossible NOT to take advantage of white priviledge when youre white.

>If you don't feel guilt why not? and I don't believe the whole
>"it wasn't me" excuse ANNNNNNNND- why don't you feel guilt?

thinking about what white people have done prior to my birth doesnt really strike me as something i need to worry about. my family didn't oppress anyone in america. shit, we basically just got here.

>How do you feel when you look around you and realize that
>there are a people who are severely downpressed with no real
>hopes of the tides ever changing unless there is a mass
>holocaust...because of the actions of your foreparents?

wasnt my foreparents.

>there is a whole sect of people who are extinct and a whole
>other sect where they are so downpressed that there is
>literally no hope left.

>I am apart of the group with no hope left. I try to come to
>terms to what has happened to my people, but I can't. i choose
>not to think about it, I can hardly watch any movies or shows
>that deal with the issue.
>
>I would rather just ignore it and keep on moving, focus more
>on myself and my own family than my own people. I am but one
>person and I cannot help everyone on the level that I would
>like to...that's not anyone's fault it's my decision...
>
>but I'm just wondering...how do you feel when you look around
>you and realize that I could actually be where I am because of
>the blood sweat and tears of a whole entire people?
>
i dont really think about that. ever.

>Is it just survival of the fittest/most manipulative? is it
>god's will? Is it the luck of the draw? what is it?
>
>What do you think makes people look at you and me and think
>that you are better?
>
>How does that make you feel?

i dont like it.
>
>How does it make you feel when others say you have no soul and
>that you are a heartless and cold people? A reptilian race?
>Do you ever look into yourself and wonder if it's true?

no one ever says that to me. i identify with jews more than whites. and i never look at myself and wonder whether thats true. i know its not true.

>hate monger's have long preached that you have no rythm and no
>heart no sense of family or of the collective divine and
>physical powers---
>do you believe it?

no.

>Do you look at other cultures and wonder where is yours? where
>is your connection with the divine?
>

no.

http://lindenwold.blogspot.com/

throwback avy.

in regards to the guilt whites shoudl feel. shouldn't blacks also feel guilt since our ancestors sold us tot eh white slave traders in exchange for guns, supplies and other sundries in order to fight their land wars.

i mean true slave catchers did capture people just roaming the woods or in the feild, but a large majority were sold outright by other africans. either a waring tribe that had conquered another and were seeking a profit, or catchers seeking a profit.

shouldn't those people and their ancestors also fell some sort of guilt over the middle passage and chattle slavery.

yes i am black and no i do't hate all white people, just those that directly effect me

It's my understanding that long before white people ever came to Africa there was slavery in its nations. However, most forms of African slavery were much less brutal than the chattel slavery practiced by Europeans. Slaves in Africa gotten by war or other means were still treated with humanity and recognized as being more than just property. Same as with Native American cultures. Slaves and war captives were eventually assimilated into that particular tribe/clan/group.

the brand of slavery practiced by the Europeans on Africans and Native Americans was like no other system of slavery around. Based on the dehumanization of their "property" and reinforced by systematic emotional and physical abuse. Add to that the way racial attitudes became institutionalized and burned into the fabric of countries and cultures all over the world... that's crazy.

by hundreds of years and is still evidenced by persistant Afro-Indian/Afro-Persian/Afro-Arab communities, though some more persistant than others--like the Siddis in India, but I've read conflicting things about their origins. I do know, whether they descend from merchants, slaves, or enslaved soldiers, that they were apart of an Indian Ocean trade complex that dealt heavily with slaves on a large scale up until the the late 19th century and then less heavily after that, but I don't know much else except that they exist.

the point though, is that there were more than just an "African" brand of slavery and a "European" brand of slavery. it ain't all Almina and Dahomey. the market for African slaves in the Ottoman Empire and on the Swahili coast killed and displaced just as many Africans as the Middle Passage.



spooks like us

there was a time i used to feel kinda guilty about it, being an African from the continent – no, i won’t say “guilty,” but sorta embarrassed.

i don’t really feel any personal guilt for it because obviously i was not there, and neither my family nor my people benefited from it

see… i think the whole thing about “blacks actually sold other blacks to the whiteman” is mostly a party line that has been blown up by (primarily conservative) white people in order to help alleviate their own guilt about the situation. i’ve read some commentators suggest that slavery was the fault of Africans… the white man just happened to run into it

but you can’t approach it like “everybody on the African continent sold everybody who ended up in the New World.” first of all, there were certain “tribes” who were known to kidnap people and sell them into slavery (mine was not one of them). these people were fundamentally criminals, and to blame the entire African continent for the acts of a few criminals is no different from when your white co-worker grabs their purse when you’re around just because they’ve been mugged by a black person before

also, it’s not like the African continent did not suffer as a result of the slave trade as well… some people would even argue that those who ended up in the Americas (and survived, of course) were actually the lucky ones, you know?

the institution of slavery had been in place for centuries prior to any ship ever setting sail into the middle passage. my guess is that anyone who participated in it (whether as a captor or as a seller) gave little thought to what happened after a given transaction.

at the outset of what became the international slave trade, how could african businessmen/warlords have known what was about to happen to their "brothers and sisters"? maybe a century or two later they figured it out. but by then they had little to no power to stop it.

i wouldn't place the entire burden of guilt on the conquering europeans, but the fault clearly lies with those who racialized slavery thereby making it the peculiar institution on which this discussion seems to be built.

bottom line: race did not always define slavery. but when it first did, it was the europeans who rewrote the rules.

>of what their people have done over the centuries to other
>peoples?

Like other posters, my family, in all the directions i traced, was arriving just after the civil war, and were poor laborers. Were they ignorant and racist? do i blame them entirely? no, similar to the way i don't blame the hutus entir'vely for the occurrence of the Rwandan genocide. But nevertheless we've all had murderers, rapists and theives in our families somewhere down the line.

The emotion I've felt when reading books, watching movies, that sort of indirect experience, isn't guilt, because it doesn't stem from my actions, but it's disgust, horror, anger, sympathy and helplessness.

>I mean do you really feel guilty about it? And if so, do you
>still take advantage of your priviledge?

I'm sure i've "taken advantage" and never been the wiser. most whites have a hard time recognizing that and when this might be going on, because it's normal for us. i mean, to see otherwise, is eye opening
>If you don't feel guilt why not? and I don't believe the whole
>"it wasn't me" excuse ANNNNNNNND- why don't you feel guilt?

okay this is the third time for the same question. i guess i don't feel guilty for being who i am because i know my parents raised me well, with compassion for others.
>How do you feel when you look around you and realize that
>there are a people who are severely downpressed with no real
>hopes of the tides ever changing unless there is a mass
>holocaust...because of the actions of your foreparents?

I think that in 100 years the struggle will be more class based, around limited resources than color based.

i do want to work for positive change while i'm here, but guilt is not my motivation.

Education reform as far as moving away from property tax funded schools, and a more socialized health care system, as well as a sane, sustainable, environmental policy are three things i care about
>there is a whole sect of people who are extinct and a whole
>other sect where they are so downpressed that there is
>literally no hope left.

i feel very cynical about the consumptive nature and narrow world outlook of our society, but i never give up hope

>I am apart of the group with no hope left. I try to come to
>terms to what has happened to my people, but I can't. i choose
>not to think about it, I can hardly watch any movies or shows
>that deal with the issue.

Manifest destiny, and the evil that resulted from religious righteousness, huge profit motive, and willingness to enslave in masse needs to be examined in depth. Not on some "Oh we were stupid and insensitive for enslaving 15-20 million Africans, we're better now though". The world is allowing another genocide, on a much smaller scale, to continue in sudan. We are, as an outside global community, contributing to evil, by allowing it to happen.
>
>I would rather just ignore it and keep on moving, focus more
>on myself and my own family than my own people. I am but one
>person and I cannot help everyone on the level that I would
>like to...that's not anyone's fault it's my decision...

Everyone needs to look out for family and individual needs first. that's why, i believe, when we're allowed just enough, as people under a government, we become easier to control and manipulate

>but I'm just wondering...how do you feel when you look around
>you and realize that I could actually be where I am because of
>the blood sweat and tears of a whole entire people?

We're all living in a country that is as powerful as it is, due in great part to labor at the expense of blacks. no argument
>Is it just survival of the fittest/most manipulative? is it
>god's will? Is it the luck of the draw? what is it?

Read Guns, germs and Steel by Jared Diamond. There are several good reasons, none of them race related, why European countries advanced technologically to the point where they were able to conquer whole continents. Food and animal domestication has a lot to do with it. These are important factors that are often overlooked.

>What do you think makes people look at you and me and think
>that you are better?

stupidity?

>How does that make you feel?

sad, angry, exasperated
>How does it make you feel when others say you have no soul and
>that you are a heartless and cold people? A reptilian race?
>Do you ever look into yourself and wonder if it's true?

I've only read this on OKP. i'd have no choice but to laugh at this. are you actually serious about the last question? My family and I are very close and warm hearted...after we've spent two-three hours sunning on the rocks outside the caucus mountains of course

>hate monger's have long preached that you have no rythm and no
>heart no sense of family or of the collective divine and
>physical powers---
>do you believe it?

Black people in general, are more culturally oriented to dancing, openly and freely I believe. how would you explain away all white musicians though?
>Do you look at other cultures and wonder where is yours? where
>is your connection with the divine?

i'm agnostic, i'll pass
>uhm yeah I'm done for now.
>
>

I don't feel an ounce of guilt. I've NEVER done anyting to anyone of color so why should I? I've been in more racist situations with a person of color being the racist then I have with whites. Now days I bet more people of color hate whites then whites hate people of color. I mean it's sad what happened and it never should of happened but.......get over it. How long ago was it? You can't hold onto something like that forever. I don't hold onto shit that happened to my great grandparents so why should you? That's like me holding a grudge against someone cause their great grandparents were rude to my great grandparents. It's not right. I hate even speaking on this whole race issue cause in my mind there isn't a race issue except for the one people of color bring up. peace!

Honesty in an autonomous environment.

This is but one excellent example--whether or not I agree is irrelevant.
I look forward to some well-thought-out replies, minus the Right Hand of Retribution. :-)

you're 22, in Utah, with an affinity for Bob Marley.

im gathering your world is extremely boxed in, and im sure you'll be on the defensive. but step out of that realm and learn what's going on in the world.

it saddens me to say this, but many blacks havent escaped the mental shackles that extended long past abolition. Until you understand an iota of what it is to be black in this country, you should rethink the "get over it" stance.

>I don't feel an ounce of guilt. I've NEVER done anyting to
>anyone of color so why should I? I've been in more racist
>situations with a person of color being the racist then I have
> with whites. Now days I bet more people of color hate whites
>then whites hate people of color. I mean it's sad what
>happened and it never should of happened but.......get over
>it. How long ago was it? You can't hold onto something like
>that forever. I don't hold onto shit that happened to my great
>grandparents so why should you? That's like me holding a
>grudge against someone cause their great grandparents were
>rude to my great grandparents. It's not right. I hate even
>speaking on this whole race issue cause in my mind there isn't
>a race issue except for the one people of color bring up.
>peace!

like Ioness is suggesting, but you should recognize:
1. If you're white, and especially if you're male, you live in a society, that from its beginnings was built and tailored for you (and me). You are privelaged by being white TODAY by racism in the court system, institutions where "character" is judged, such as bank loans, and from the educational system. Slavery may have been 140 yrs ago, but have you asked your parents what they were doing during the civil rights years?

Why would people of color bring up an issue that didn't exist? Ever wonder why they seem to be affected by it, but you, blissfully, are not? Think, perhaps, it wouldn't hurt to listen to a perspective that you'll never experience first hand?

People aren't holding onto shit because they're bored (well for the most part).

Basically, for you and me, it's easy to go through life and think very little about race...that in itself is a privelige. how can you expect people of a generation whose parents didn't have equal rights, FROM THE GOVERNMENT, to be perfectly at ease in today's society?

Show and prove folks, show and prove...


I've got a Bob Marley tune for ya *cues Crazy Baldhead*


My Mantra when dealing with White folks:

When you are playing with a dog, do not ever forget to keep a stick within reach

Akan Proverb

i'm bout to continue on a tangent, deal...

http://bkbrickhouse.blogspot.com
last updated 062905 the "mama i love you" (boyz ii men) entry

<-- tahir the lil' afro man by afrikankween

and it's b/c of the screenname and avatar image that accompany it.

well done, player.

I don't feel an ounce of guilt. I've NEVER done anyting to anyone of color so why should I? I've been in more racist situations with a person of color being the racist then I have with whites. Now days I bet more people of color hate whites then whites hate people of color. I mean it's sad what happened and it never should of happened but.......get over it. How long ago was it? You can't hold onto something like that forever. I don't hold onto shit that happened to my great grandparents so why should you? That's like me holding a grudge against someone cause their great grandparents were rude to my great grandparents. It's not right. I hate even speaking on this whole race issue cause in my mind there isn't a race issue except for the one people of color bring up. peace!

and I'm just as much human sa anyone of color, and that's an ignorant thing to say. That's the most racist thing I've ever heard!

by someone who looked like you, do you feel guilt that you get to live with 2 legs while there are others who have to go through life with one leg because someone sick mofo who didn't like the sound of their vocal chords rendered them crippled?

of course not.

guilt is only appropriate when you did something bad, not when someone else is less fortunate than you. you're not supposed to feel guilty for the cards you were given. that's nonsense.

is jaime fox supposed to feel guilty for having a bigger, nicer choice of women (including white women) than some white guy who gets his face burned off by an angry black man? hell no. jaime fox should thank God for the blessings he's been given.

should i feel guilty because my naturally right-handed cousin has a deformed right arm with no elbow and 1 finger? no, i should praise God for the blessings he's given me, and the extraodinary things that will come of my cousin through his struggles.

you don't feel guilty for situations you didn't create.

EDIT: but i would like to respectuflly ask you why so many people including yourself don't buy the "it wasn't me" reply to the guilt question. is it because people always say it, so it has become cliche to your mind?

i personally dont think they can be compared
AT ALL

http://lindenwold.blogspot.com/

throwback avy.

and i don't think it can be compared at all.

i'm asking because of the different convos I've been apart of.

So it's not like do you really feel that way omg I can't believe you just said that.

It's more like, i've heard that said before but do you all or any other jewish person really think that...

incomprable.

http://lindenwold.blogspot.com/

throwback avy.

I'm not trying to start nothing...I am trying to get a ball rolling doe...

i'm sure throughout this convo you'll get a feel for what I really think if you haven't already from my other posts...

because jews really have been targeted throughout history as well
the worst was the holocaust
but i'm pretty sure things weren't honky dory during the crusades for example...

but yes there's always tension and comparisions between the two most hated groups.

...

still tryna understand why when race comes up
Jews come up
again isn't it a religion not a race? I know i'm replying to Ioness but this is an open question)


-------

"Those are my principles. If you don't like them I have others." ~groucho

why are you getting your pickle in a tickle scrappy? ~ Crucian1 (...from when men don't wipe)

I guess because these people are treated differently even by their own "white" counterparts....

The next question then would be what are the muslim- arabic etc...

as well as you can throw in what the Japanese did in China and Korea.
__________________________________________________________

http://www.myspace.com/chamilton

http://maulerkoala.blogspot.com/

Bucks Playoffs in the 05-06 season Son


<=======Okay Jawn Month SOOOOOON

"She got that new dick scent..." (c) Me

**************************

why, cus the end results are much different.

I would compare what happend to us to what happened to native people's of this country maybe, why well look at where those people are.

China and japan are also doing fairly better than "black" people and the natives of this land as well.

they started off in

there are a plethora of reasons why the holocaust and american slavery are incomparable


http://lindenwold.blogspot.com/

throwback avy.

but detailed reasons why or why not is not my forte...i choose not to research or educate myself on certain things of the past and even present, sometimes it's because I am lazy and other times it's because I don't have the strength...


In this instance I don't have the strength AND i also adhere to a completely different belief system than most people I have met. Like there is only one other person that I know of that feelsthe same way I do.

But...for the most part I agree with you again.

They were completely wiped out.

I think Black Americans compare mostly to Koreans after WWII.

During that time,the Japanese raped and pillaged,and mutilated every Korean they came across.They destroyed the whole culture,and deny it to this day.And the Koreans were never given shit for it.While they have just now attained a level of success,its through Japanese culture and thinking.Their culture is dead for all intents and purposes.
__________________________________________________________

http://www.myspace.com/chamilton

http://maulerkoala.blogspot.com/

Bucks Playoffs in the 05-06 season Son


<=======Okay Jawn Month SOOOOOON

"She got that new dick scent..." (c) Me

see one of my replies to south jeru...

But i do feel the natives of this land got it a blunt force for the most part there are a few tribes and cultures left...however I think that their true origins have yet to be found and that they are from a culture that is still very much alive and flourishing in their original lands...

black americans have no sense of home nor are they welcome where they think their home is...

they have no sense of generational guides, we have no father figures...as a whole sometimes i really wish that my people would be extinct.

It sounds harsh and i probably will get a lashing for it, but that's how i feel...

most of us are lost and most of us...*sighs* i really can't even continue right now...

their native lands aren't reservations,and their culture isn't throwing airbrushed wolves on a shirt.I think a lot of white Americans use the fact that indians have casino rights to mean that we're being just to them,when by the same token,their cultures have been killed in the name of enterprise and marketing.

I believe black Americans should receive something similar,but not in casinos or cash.But in something more important...education.

I would figure out how much of this economy can be directly calculated to slave labor,adjust it for inflation,and because you can't kill the economy,take 10% of the number we get and throw it into inner city schools and scholarship funds.There should not be a black American,or any American,for that matter,that doesn't get a good education because they are poor,and can't go to college because they can't afford it.And if college isn't in the cards for them,an assisted job training should be bought and paid for.Why?Because Whitey McSuburbs house was paid for in what amounts to blood money.
__________________________________________________________

http://www.myspace.com/chamilton

http://maulerkoala.blogspot.com/

Bucks Playoffs in the 05-06 season Son


<=======Okay Jawn Month SOOOOOON

"She got that new dick scent..." (c) Me

http://bkbrickhouse.blogspot.com
last updated 062905 the "mama i love you" (boyz ii men) entry

<-- tahir the lil' afro man by afrikankween

__________________________________________________________

http://www.myspace.com/chamilton

http://maulerkoala.blogspot.com/

Bucks Playoffs in the 05-06 season Son


<=======Okay Jawn Month SOOOOOON

"She got that new dick scent..." (c) Me

i agree wit that.
will it happen under this government? not in a million years.

http://bkbrickhouse.blogspot.com
last updated 062905 the "mama i love you" (boyz ii men) entry

<-- tahir the lil' afro man by afrikankween

it won't happen under this administration,but I believe it will happen,partly because public education is so pathetically bad that it will fall apart,and the governnment will have no choice but to do it.It will never be called reperations,but in essence,that's what it will be.
__________________________________________________________

http://www.myspace.com/chamilton

http://maulerkoala.blogspot.com/

Bucks Playoffs in the 05-06 season Son


<=======Okay Jawn Month SOOOOOON

"She got that new dick scent..." (c) Me

from the "bad"

which won't do much of shit but get the good kids ahead
and the bad ones will just get worse and worse.
the problem is at home too. no supervision. parents don't care. bigger problems like poverty, etc.

education PROPER EDUCATION is what our kids need but as long as
we live in poverty we can fuck it.

http://bkbrickhouse.blogspot.com
last updated 062905 the "mama i love you" (boyz ii men) entry

<-- tahir the lil' afro man by afrikankween

The generation who stays in school,goes onto higher education,and then has families that do the same.In essence,we need a cultural reboot for poor people(its not a black or white problem.Its a black and white problem).We need a generation that is given the chance to slip out of their surroundings,and raise actual 2 parent households,regardless of stupid factors like sexual orientation.

Of course,that plan is contigent uopn schools having things like money,books,teachers,resources,commitment and motivation.And I don't see that happening within out lifetimes,unfortuneately.
__________________________________________________________

http://www.myspace.com/chamilton

http://maulerkoala.blogspot.com/

Bucks Playoffs in the 05-06 season Son


<=======Okay Jawn Month SOOOOOON

"She got that new dick scent..." (c) Me

And it goes nowhere.

But I believe that in order to save Americans from themselves,we need to kill the way our society runs,reboot it,and start again.There's too much ingrained pain and hatred for our system to attempt to keep working.

And if Native Americans can get casinoes,all Americans should get better education.
__________________________________________________________

http://www.myspace.com/chamilton

http://maulerkoala.blogspot.com/

Bucks Playoffs in the 05-06 season Son


<=======Okay Jawn Month SOOOOOON

"She got that new dick scent..." (c) Me

don't want money give me my MFA PH.d
that's my reparations right there.

do for the amount of generations affected through 150/200+ years


-------

"Those are my principles. If you don't like them I have others." ~groucho

Wacky americans. you all need another hundred years or so to work this shit out, not a week in GD ~ Tohunga (in "THE DIFFICULT POST ABOUT RACE")

but thats why i feel like the plight of blacks is incomparable because of its legacy...still persisting n thriving...
**************************

makes me incredibly uncomfortable.
so ill probably stop now


http://lindenwold.blogspot.com/

throwback avy.

we all ot fucked...different ways...fucked over nonetheless
**************************

http://bkbrickhouse.blogspot.com
last updated 062905 the "mama i love you" (boyz ii men) entry

<-- tahir the lil' afro man by afrikankween

speaak
**************************

http://bkbrickhouse.blogspot.com
last updated 062905 the "mama i love you" (boyz ii men) entry

<-- tahir the lil' afro man by afrikankween

i appreciate u tho
**************************

so i can't represent on this one, sorry.

i don' feel like defending people that irk me.... even if some see me as being on the same 'team' as them. fuck that. we got our own problems, and we're working them out better then you guys, thanks. i mean. NZ ain't peachy, but it feels like a fucking 'We Are The World' commercial when i read about race relations over in yr spot

...and this is probly why you specified that this is for the US people

wacky americans. you all need another hundred years or so to work this shit out, not a week in GD

i saw the movie rabbit proof fence...i don't know. it doesn't seem like that sort of shit goes from that to we are the world that easy.

http://bkbrickhouse.blogspot.com
last updated 062905 the "mama i love you" (boyz ii men) entry

<-- tahir the lil' afro man by afrikankween

'rabbit proof fence' ain't got shit to say about new zealand, seeing how it's an Australian film, about Australians

duh

try 'whale rider'


(as an aside, there's more Maori in New Zealand then there are Aborigine in Australia. NZ has a treaty between Maori and the settlers, Aussie doesn't. NZ is a bilingual country, Aussie isn't. NZ has apologised for injustices and paid millions in reperations, Aussie hasn't. NZ teaches Maori history and myths in schools, Aussie doesn't do anything like that... we're quite different in this area.)


try again

i didn't see your aside.

but with all of that said
i would still love to hear what an Original person from your area would say in this post and to that we are the world comment in particular.

http://bkbrickhouse.blogspot.com
last updated 062905 the "mama i love you" (boyz ii men) entry

<-- tahir the lil' afro man by afrikankween

whereas NZ has the biggest polynesian population in the world (Polynesian = Maori, Samoan, Niuean, Tongan, Cook Islander, etc etc)

and yeah, there was a treaty signed in 1840 between the British and the Maori chieftains, which has had some lapses but has been addressed in the last 30 years.. reperations like the Tainui settlement are getting paid, that was about $190 million paid to one tribe for unlawful land seizures in the late 1800s, and there's constant negotiations to make sure that Maori are still entitled to the rights that the Treaty gave them- that is, tribal lands remain in the possession of the tribe, and that, as Tangata Whenua (people of the land) Maori have unalienable rights to natural resources like fishing, hunting, and natural features. also, there's large sections of the country that are off-limits to anyone but people with ties to a certain tribe

and iono how to show what our inner city looks like. depends where you are- most of the Islander pop'n is in South Auckland, most of the Maori are in Rotorua and Gisborne, if that's what you mean, because, well.. most of the population in general is at that end of the islands. we don't really have the South Central type areas like the US does, though, which are primarily one or the other... umm i can show u what our clubs look like though
http://hiphopnz.com/forums/modules/gallery/

any more questions? while i'm here?

http://bkbrickhouse.blogspot.com
last updated 062905 the "mama i love you" (boyz ii men) entry

<-- tahir the lil' afro man by afrikankween

usually grouped under 'melanesian', wehich includes, for example, the Torres Strait Islanders and the tribes of New Guinea (incidentally, the people with the darkest skin in the world live in New Guinea.)

they've been in that area for around 30,000 years, as far as we know. Polynesians are mostly 'younger' populations- for example, Maori only seperated themselves in NZ around 1000 years ago.

u can see the differences in the traditional lives they lead- Aborigines are nomadic, whereas Polynesians cultivate crops and build large, complex communities in a specific place.

this is one of the reasons that the Aborigine populatin was fucked over by settlers- they didn't have land they thought of as their own- it all belonged to them- so when the settlers set up camp n an area, the Aborigines would just walk somewhere else.
until they found there weren't many places left to walk.

on our side of the Tasman Sea, though, Maori were warrior people, and when the British tried to settle on their lands they fought tooth and nail. until the English were like "fuck this, okay, you guys keep your stuff, but is it cool if we share some of these islands?"

it's one of the least tragic stories of any colonised place in the world, i've heard. and i'm so glad for that.
(buit still-- it ain't all peachy.)

here's wikipedia on it::


European colonization of New Zealand occurred relatively recently, causing the late New Zealand historian Michael King to state in his book, The Penguin History Of New Zealand, that Māori were "the last major human community on earth untouched and unaffected by the wider world."

The early European explorers of New Zealand, including Abel Tasman and James Cook, reported encounters with Māori.

These early reports described the Māori as a fierce and proud warrior race. Inter-tribal warfare was a way of life, with the conquered being enslaved or in some cases eaten. From as early as the 1780s Māori had encounters with European sealers and whalers, some even crewed on their ships. There was also a continuous trickle of escaped convicts from Australia and deserters from visiting ships. By 1830 it was estimated that there were as many as 2,000 Pakeha living among the Māori, status varying from slaves through to high ranking advisors, from prisoners to those who abandoned European culture and identified themselves as Māori. Pakeha were valued for their ability to describe European skills and culture and their ability to obtain European items in trade, particularly weaponry. These Europeans were known as Pakeha Māori. When Pomare led a war party against Titore in 1838, among his warriors were 132 Pakeha mercenaries. Frederick Edward Maning, an early settler, wrote two colourful contemporaneous accounts of life at that time which have become classics of New Zealand literature: Old New Zealand and History of the War in the North of New Zealand against the Chief Heke. Governor George Grey learned the language and recorded much of the mythology.


Musket wars

During this period the acquisition of muskets by those tribes in close contact with European visitors destabilised the existing balance of power between Māori tribes, and there was a period of bloody inter-tribal warfare, known as the Musket Wars, during which several tribes were effectively exterminated and others were driven from their traditional territory. European diseases also killed a large but unknown number of Māori during this period. Estimates vary between ten and fifty percent.


Annexation

With increasing European missionary activity and settlement in the 1830s as well as perceived European lawlessness, the British Crown, as a predominant world power, came under pressure to intervene. Ultimately this led to William Hobson being dispatched with instructions to take possesssion of New Zealand. Before he arrived, Queen Victoria annexed new Zealand by royal proclamation in January 1840. On arrival in February, Hobson negotiated the Treaty of Waitangi with the surrounding northern chiefs. This treaty was subsequently signed by many other Māori chiefs, though by no means all. The treaty gave Māori British citizenship in return for a guarantee of property rights and tribal autonomy.


Disputes and decline

In the 1860s, disputes over questionable land purchases and the attempts of Māori in the Waikato to establish a rival British-style system of royalty led to the New Zealand wars. Although these resulted in relatively few deaths, large tracts of tribal land were confiscated by the colonial government. Settlements such as Parihaka in Taranaki are remembered as sites of violent conflict that took place there during that period.

With the loss of much of their land, Māori went into a period of decline, and in the late 19th century it was believed that the Māori population would cease to exist as a separate race and be assimilated into the European population.


Revival

The predicted decline did not occur, and population levels recovered. Despite a high degree of intermingling between the Māori and European populations, Māori were able to retain their cultural identity and in the 1960s and 1970s Māoridom underwent a cultural revival.

Since that time, sympathetic governments and political activism have led to compensation for certain instances of unjust confiscation of land and the violation of other property rights. A special court, the Waitangi Tribunal, was established to investigate and make recommendations on such issues. As a result of the compensation paid, Māori now have significant interests in the fishing and forestry industries.

Māori culture and language is taught in most New Zealand schools, and pre-school kohanga reo or language nests teach tamariki or young children exclusively in Māori. Māori Television, a government-funded TV station committed to broadcasting primarily in te reo, began broadcasting on March 28, 2004. The Māori language has the equivalent status to English in government and law. Māori politicians have seven designated Māori seats in the New Zealand parliament (and may stand in the General seats), and consideration and consultation with Māori are routine requirements for many New Zealand councils and government organisations.

http://bkbrickhouse.blogspot.com
last updated 062905 the "mama i love you" (boyz ii men) entry

<-- tahir the lil' afro man by afrikankween

Aborigines are aborigines, that's about the best way of putting it....they're not african, they're not 'nesian, they're not asian, they're their own people.

As a pakeha who grew up in a mostly Maori area (Gisborne), I can confirm Tohunga's comments that we certainty haven't solved the problems of "race relations", but are certainly doing a heap better than most I guess. Still plenty of red-necks, still plenty of irrational radials on the other side too, but a lot of us do try and make a conscious effort to at least become less ignorant about each otherI guess.

You might lump Maori, Aborigines, Fijians etc... into a "black" box, but in IMO that's unfair, and takes a great deal away of what makes EACH people unique. Maori (and you can run with this thinking for all of people's of the Pacific) are more a people as such, like native americans were and what Europeans are now...to lump them in with anyone else is bordering on insulting. We're not talking about groups who had a lot of contact with anyone else eh, they're quite distinct and separate.

http://bkbrickhouse.blogspot.com
last updated 062905 the "mama i love you" (boyz ii men) entry

<-- tahir the lil' afro man by afrikankween

polynesians: brown, or sometimes 'asian' according to american's views

is this simple enough for yuos?

i know what they ARE from melanasian to polynasian. black.

http://bkbrickhouse.blogspot.com
last updated 062905 the "mama i love you" (boyz ii men) entry

<-- tahir the lil' afro man by afrikankween

...are either red-necks and racists (with fair skin and of European descent), although there is a streak of it in mostly lost (and confused) urban Maori and Polynesians, who feel more affinity with hip-hop than they do anything else.

But opinions are like arseholes eh, so you can think one way, and I'll think another and it'll never really matter.

as an umbrella term for Maori or Islanders or Aborigines (or even Africans for that matter)

that usage, well, it's an american thing
on the flipside, me, i'm pakeha, not 'white'
99 times out of 100 we'd refer to the specific ethnicity, if poss, if we have to discuss race.

those are black people.
original highly melanated people.
people in india call themselves "indian" but guess what? yep you guessed it...

caucasoid, negroid, mongoloid

if you're breaking it down to this then Polynesians are a 'regional variation' and not a racial classification, in that they have equal parts mongoloid and negroid ancestry

cos in the spread from Africa, well, Asia's in between there and the Pacific

hence the light skin and the eye shapes
http://www.netresult.ws/images/h_polynesian.gif

if you're reducing the world down to these 3 classifications, then you're right in that u ask most islanders and they identify with their culture first, thier islands, then Polynesian culture, and then black culture from america/africa, but not their asian ancestry

....i still remember posting a music video on here of some polynesian fellas from back home- Che Fu- and a couple of people on here were like "why am i watching these asian dudes singing?" ...that just blew me away, that the world had to be that defined for some people. no in-between, no brown, just 3 racial groups and that's it.. was the first time i'd heard PI's referred to as anything but Islanders. but i guess, hey, welcome to the world paul, it's a big place and we all gotta understand it somehow

mongoloids aren't separated


well i think..

well that's i remember...

well if i'm wrong, Key, tell me

______________________________


*TWINNING*

caucasoid + mongoloid are both recent (as in, less than 2 million years recent), caucasoid coming after mongoloid in the timescale

any other racially based 'classifications' can be seen as a combination of these three groups, based on adaptation to different environments, etc..for example, you could have someone who is a direct descendant of Genghis Khan but is heavily melinated because their ancestors lived near the equator for many many generations

although multiregional evolution puts aborigines and some melanesians outside of this family tree, there's still strong support for the 'African Eve' theory- that all humans alive today have a common ancestor, a black woman- possibly Khoisan- who lived in Africa between 140,000 and 290,000 years ago. she may not be the most recent shared ancestor, but mitochondrial DNA of everyone alive seems to be linked upwards to one point

we're all family, says anthropology

zarathuckya (wiremu.... where'd ya get to bro???)

and a hawaiian-born, US raised african-american (+ native american, + irish i think, + maybe some more peoples) who lives there now, and posts under the name of Urthanheaven.

i think us three would agree that it's far from peachy- we can do better- + we still got the redneck racist assholes-- BUT, compared to the US, i think we're doing okay

urthanheaven has done some posts in okactivist about his views on race down there, u could always search his name if u want i guess

But I do think as immigration rises so do tensions. Often I feel that people in racial minorities make big noises about the racism that they feel impacts upon them without addressing their own prejudices. Especially in Auckland, I get sick of seeing people who have come from other nations and don't make an effort to mix with people from other cultures. I know it's not easy, but it can be done.

I would also say that while the Maori haven't had a fair shake the whole way through they do the best out of any indigenous people whose country has been colonised to the point where said people have become the minority. I will say though that they seem to get a lot of money without taking enough time to really invest it back into their own. I heard one Maori say "Ask not what your iwi can do for you..." and that turned me off.

I would say though that we're not the sort of melting pot yet that other countries are. Get outside of the 'metropolitan' areas and NZ is still pretty white. I remember being down in Gisbourne and, while my brown blood is far outweighed by my whiter side, I still couldn't get the lady serving me to stop looking my white friend (standing over my shoulder) in the eye and look at me, who was doing all the talking.

there's a reason Christchurch has most of the skinheads in the country... it's cos thats the only place they're not outnumbered by the Mongrel Mob

was talking to scribe the other day (if you'll scuse the namedropping) and he was telling me bout his school, they were never even taught the anthem in Maori there.. that was fucked up. me, from rotorua, p-money from AK ,we were both learning the anthem, the colour charts, the numbers in Maori when we were like 5 and 6, but scribe neeever had any te reo at his school

but shit, my high school had a marae on it, it's pretty strong in rotovegas i guess

That's messed up. Even at the most pakeha of primary schools in Gizzy (like where I went, before I moved to the most Maori of intermediates), we did the anthem and the "ma is white" song etc...(did spend the first year of intermediate with Maori spelt Moari on my folder though)

Back on point, I knew Chch was a little red-neck, but not THAT red-necked...still folks I know there still claim it as an english city, so maybe it ain't that surprising.

hows that for american babble!

choose not to associate with them-

were you simply raised like that or do you avoid white people because of past experiences youve had with them? if you can pinpoint an event that detered you from making white friends, please explain it.

my parents ALWAYS discouraged me from hanging out with non jewish kids when i was growing up. now i have this "white americans are evil" complex that is proving to be increasingly difficult to shake.

so for me, the reason i dislike/avoid this huge group of people is not REALLY (although ive had many incidences where white americans and people of other races/nationalities have said something negative about jews) because of bad experiences with them, but more about what my parents taught me growing up.

http://lindenwold.blogspot.com/

throwback avy.

white people seem to have a certain knack for showing me otherwise.

http://bkbrickhouse.blogspot.com
last updated 062905 the "mama i love you" (boyz ii men) entry

<-- tahir the lil' afro man by afrikankween

i dont like

so its not completely fair, in that respect

are you anticipating them showing you otherwise or do you really give each white person a clean slate?

http://lindenwold.blogspot.com/

throwback avy.

regardless of race so i guess in that respect i do, the same way a cop anticipates crime. in your heart of hearts you don't want crime but you know it's coming.
i just always keep aware of everything going on around me
people say things that give their true feelings about certain things away all the time.

http://bkbrickhouse.blogspot.com
last updated 062905 the "mama i love you" (boyz ii men) entry

<-- tahir the lil' afro man by afrikankween

...it's just wiser not to trust. Why? Have you SEEN what white people do? Their track record is stellar in America. And, folx act like that shit is so far removed that those ideals are no longer widespread. Bullshit.

Now, i know I should be bigger than that. It's small minded, really, but...**shrug** first instinct is self preservation.

niggas kill me tryin to make niggas feel bad for being aware.
that's just the way shit is. don't feel bad,you ain't do it.
small minded? that seems Wise to me.

http://bkbrickhouse.blogspot.com
last updated 062905 the "mama i love you" (boyz ii men) entry

<-- tahir the lil' afro man by afrikankween

...but, judging someone based on the color of their skin. SOLEY. Is kinda stupid to me. It's being wary, true, but that person IS an individual...but, at the same time, they're part of a larger collective.

If I find it disheartening when people prejudge me(black, man, athlete, etc, etc, I caught it all at some time) how can I turn around and do the exact same thing with out some internal conflict? I would like to give folx the same respect I expect for myself.

And, I'm not saying I'm going to even try and change that, it's worked thus far. But, I don't see it as guilt brought on by anyone else, it's something I realized during a period of introspection.

But, then I remember a part of MLK Jr's "I have a dream" speech(that alot of people skip over): "This sweltering summer of the colored people's legitimate discontent will not pass until there is an invigorating autumn of freedom and equality."

LEGITIMATE DISCONTENT, who can tell me it's not legitimate?

n/m

its watching everybody

>white people seem to have a certain knack for showing me
>otherwise.

it's a defense mechanism i learned in my twenties believe it or not.

it's as a result of subtle(and not so subtle) treatment i received

i'm wary...but when stuff happens in the media or on the street it's now a reflex.

I'm trying to unlearn it because i know it's offensive to the few white friends i do have



-------

"Those are my principles. If you don't like them I have others." ~groucho

Wacky americans. you all need another hundred years or so to work this shit out, not a week in GD ~ Tohunga (in "THE DIFFICULT POST ABOUT RACE")

No message

on slavery:

let's say that over billions of years ago, a distant planet crashed into ours and created the moon, mars and the asteroid belt.

that crash caused a growth of life on our planet which was ripe and fertile at that time. In the recent 450,000 years a vogue team of extra terra astral explorers found our planet and decided to do some research.

Upon their findings they found a place that could support their life as well, as a planet rich with minerals and metals that they could use for their own resources including- gold and diamonds.

So they planned an expedition and set up camp, however their workers complained because it was too hot and humid, let's say these beings had some reptilian features. these beings then set out to domesticate a wild animal to do their bidding. they mixed and tampered with the genetics of these animals. Creating beings such as the winged horse (i forget it's name) and other mystical greek beings etc...

However those beings all had short life spans or died horrible deaths.

Eventually their eyes were set upon a peculiarly clever ape...one who would actually free it's friends from their food traps.

They decided to mix this ape with other animals and that did not work, until finally they decided to mix their own blood with the ape and created homo sapien. All for the purposes of working in their mines.

their evolution around our planet takes every 3600 years they left and a year later returned and found a whole generation of people and bodies here to do their bidding.

In this story, the whole creation of a people was for slavery. to do the work that even these beings did not want to do...

what are your thoughts on this form of slavery?

what are your thoughts if you were to find out that this story is true?

what if i could tell you where to look to find this story artifacts and scientific resources and all?

What then would you think about your gods?

what then would you think about your own lives and the reasons for the many different atrocities committed for these gods and in the name of slavery?

what do you think of me for posting such a crazy story?

But Im not too sure what it has to do with the subject at hand. Thats more on creationism, religion, etc.

Furthermore, if such a story were true, it would put a whole new spin on the way we view religion, race and class issues.

Slavery is a topic of this conversation, but its more towards how it relates towards our perception of race in 2005. What you wrote was more of 'How humans came to be'.

If I had to answer those questions

"what are your thoughts on this form of slavery?"

A little farfetched. Although you can say my idea that we all came from muck to be what we are today is probably as farfetched.

"what are your thoughts if you were to find out that this story is true?"

Cool. It proves 1)There are other lifeforms out there. And 2)There is so much technology that we have untapped.

There's the whole 'Fuck, we are slaves, what the fuck we are gonna do' angle, but ill focus on the positives! ;)

"what if i could tell you where to look to find this story artifacts and scientific resources and all?"

Id be interested in finding out.

"What then would you think about your gods?"

Makes no difference. I figure an uber religious person would still be able to fit god in the equation(who created the aliens) and somebody like me who wavers between athiesm and agnosticism(is this even a word), i just give it a *shrug*.

"what then would you think about your own lives and the reasons for the many different atrocities committed for these gods and in the name of slavery?"

All those atrocities weren't really commited for God's. Yeah, we use them as an excuse, but the reality is man's inhumanity towards man is pretty inherant, even on the genetic level. As smart as we are, Darwinism and its effects live in us all.

"what do you think of me for posting such a crazy story?"

The Cali crack was a joke at their percieved hippyness ;) No offense intended. Personally I think no different of you, positive or negative. Although it does make you more fascinating, and Ill be watching your posts more often if they delve in this again. *Taps nightstick* JUST DON'T POST OVER THE LIMIT!

>
>All those atrocities weren't really commited for God's. Yeah,
>we use them as an excuse, but the reality is man's inhumanity
>towards man is pretty inherant, even on the genetic level. As
>smart as we are, Darwinism and its effects live in us all.
>

I would disagree, if these beings are responsible for the image of what we think our deities to be, then the god that we al grew up believing in is a fallacy and very much a physical being capable of mistakes and "inhumanity" for lack of better word just as much as we are.

Then you have to start thinking about the wars fought over territory in those times,especially the babylonian and akkadian times, when these ancient religious wars (the foreboders if you allow) for the most part began and set a tone for the rest of time...

this would also be the same theory I would use for slavery...

In those times the god of abraham told him to wipe out the people out of jordan(the canaanites who worshiped another god allah or enlil)...but I know that god to be enki or yahowah, sumerian beings that existed, captains of the wars of gods and men.


Check out the earth chronicles by Zecharia Sitchin...just the cheapest I can recommend and contains many resources that you can research on your own to find your answers.

Kind of "Lord of The Flies" esque if you will.

Like I could take a planet, throw a thousand random people from earth there.

They would probably get a society going, everything would be peachy keen because they all need to rely on each other to survive.

After that first initial period, I really have no doubts that they would start killing and fighting each other;) Probably first over religion or race, till eventually generations later they all breed into mixed lightbrights.

Then they would probably find other reasons...maybe all the tall people would try to subjegate the short ones..yada yada yada.


Alot of ancient societies fought over religous reasons, but I think the catalyst for all that is much more primordial. I mean as spiritual and intelligent as we are, just like other animals fight and fuck, I think there is a need in us to do too.

Im gonna go check those books out, ive been hitting recreational reading hard again for the past few weeks and I want to keep it going.

more fight and love out of karnal but more like biological desires and codings.

I guess...

but there's a part of me that wants to believe that I have an oversoul that is much more evolved than that. And that had our creation not been hindered or "sped up" as it were...we would be in a completely different place.

Imagine, if we were alowed the time to evolve. Before there was homosapien it took homoerectus 1 million years to evolve completely...our evolution took 35,000 years.

Imagine what our ancestors learned as a result of the time that they were given and what was taken from us by speeding up our evolution.

Yes children grow up fast, but you still need a childhood, or else in your adult years you find yourself acting very much childlike.

We were given the knowledge but not the wisdom to understand it all.

I'm black, I've read about and studied our history and it's awful. But I'm so sick and fucking tired of any time some group says how bad they have it we have to bring up our past so we can prove we had it worse.

Even up in the post there is a discussion about slavery vs. the holocaust. Why does one have to have it worse than the other?

We never want to recognize that other groups have it shitty also without trying to compare them to us. Fuck the gays, it doesn't matter if people treat them like shit, because they were never put in slavery. the Jews have nothing to bitch about because the holocaust can't compare to slavery.

If anything we should try to band together with other groups that have been historically oppressed.


The white man is very clever…We were amused at his foolishness and allowed him to stay. Now he has won our brothers and our clan can no longer act like one. He has put a knife on the things that held us together and we have fallen apart-Obierika

but I don't think I am the biggest victim.

I do think my people are downpressed...however...

But I agree with your statements on that we do need to band together, not just the downpressed but the uppressed too.

I know in the real world. Black victimization has run out of control.

That's why I think more blacks need to be buddhist. Because it's time to let go. not in the sense that we forget. But we need to recognize the pain that was done to us but not become attatched to it.

White people treated us horribly...ok...but we can't let that stop us from becoming a sucessful community. We can't use that as a crutch, and we can't feel sorry about ourselves.


The white man is very clever…We were amused at his foolishness and allowed him to stay. Now he has won our brothers and our clan can no longer act like one. He has put a knife on the things that held us together and we have fallen apart-Obierika

Buddhism will do.

For all of us doe.

When Native Americans pop up, once again blacks had it worse. This shit is fucking ridiculous.

Does it even really matter who had it worse? The point is both people's were raped and their cultures obliterated


The white man is very clever…We were amused at his foolishness and allowed him to stay. Now he has won our brothers and our clan can no longer act like one. He has put a knife on the things that held us together and we have fallen apart-Obierika

they might say that they had it worse.

al thinsg divine knows that I have heard it said time and time before by others, personally, in articles i've read, on tv talk shows, internet sites etc...


I think that a black person will say that because they can only identify with their pain, a jewish person would say that for the same reason as well for any other downpressed peoples.

But what we do need is a banding together of peoples to help each other identify with each other's pain.

And sometimes to road to reaching that point starts with first identifying their own pain. sometimes it takes even more than that.

The next time you hear someone say that you should ask them why.

People who say "blacks had it worse than Natives" do have a very strong argument due to many things in history....

Like the fact that blacks (free or slave) were considered the lowest of the low when compared to Native Americans.

Or the fact that a big number of Native American Nations owned, bought, and sold thousands of black slaves.

Or the fact that there were Natives that did track and hunt down escaping slaves.

When people make the claim that Natives had it worse than anyone, these facts make it hard for me to cosign with that. But fact remains that both sides did have it hard as hell in this country.

It's analogous to people who argue about whose city is more hardcore by comparing murder statistics.

Peace,

*** MARBLES ***

The holocaust has been thrown in our face as this great crime against humanity since I can remember, where the only times slavery is talked about is on that occassion when roots come on. Our history is awful and our present condition stems from that history. Most black folks I come across suffer from historical discontinuity and don't event talk about slavery that much atleast not enough to have a firm idea of the implications it has had. Every people has had their unfavorable moments in history and i think it is just plain dumb to compare them to our history and present circumstances, like how jews often do.

*****
Gina is out of control
I'm out of control
the whole--damn--party
--is--out--of control!
(c) White Bob
*****

Black people do mention slavery, when it's convienent. But you are right not enough people know the historical and social impact of slavery.

But that doesn't mean we should be alowed to play the slavery card at any and every oppurtunity. We should use that history to build ourselves up, not tear others down.


The white man is very clever…We were amused at his foolishness and allowed him to stay. Now he has won our brothers and our clan can no longer act like one. He has put a knife on the things that held us together and we have fallen apart-Obierika

>But that doesn't mean we should be alowed to play the slavery card
> at any and every oppurtunity. We should use that history to build
> ourselves up, not tear others down.

I agree, I also believe there is generally alot of black people who find it quite unacceptable to use race and history sometimes as an excuse

*****
Gina is out of control
I'm out of control
the whole--damn--party
--is--out--of control!
(c) White Bob
*****

i'll be back during lunch

i'd like to see some of the more outspoken Muslim and/or 5% OKP's chime into this post.


_______________________________________
NO RING. NO SHAME.

I AIN'T CHANGED...DETROIT WHAT!!

True anti-intellectualism exists in every race and ethnic group....however in the black culture it is dominent.

Because I want to read that means I'm trying to act white. We glorify being stupid. And what's worse is that in doing so we reinforce stereotypes that we are supposedly trying to dispel.

Hey muthafucka if you want rednecks to stop callin niggers stupid and lazy, then stop being stupid and lazy.


The white man is very clever…We were amused at his foolishness and allowed him to stay. Now he has won our brothers and our clan can no longer act like one. He has put a knife on the things that held us together and we have fallen apart-Obierika

Anywhere else, the kids have professionals and leaders with black faces to set their dreams off of.

Here, you have a higher oppressive race pounding it into our heads (since we came here) that we are worth nothing that exists outside of our physical (BODILY) capabilities.

and blacks that have pulled me down the most.

that now, we just run with the idea that education is not our "place". That's why we keep each other down.

Whites today, especially the young ones, because of all the hate against them have kinda taken on this "We are the World" stance...which just...doesn't...work right now. They say that we should become educated and grow when the way whites run this country and oppress minorities just doesn't allow for it.

>True anti-intellectualism exists in every race and ethnic
>group....however in the black culture it is dominent.
>
>Because I want to read that means I'm trying to act white. We
>glorify being stupid. And what's worse is that in doing so we
>reinforce stereotypes that we are supposedly trying to
>dispel.
>
>Hey muthafucka if you want rednecks to stop callin niggers
>stupid and lazy, then stop being stupid and lazy.

you just reinforced that same stereotype. lol

even in the hood, nobody respects stupid cats.

what folks don't like is people who dismiss or
patronize them just because they aren't as
'credentialled' or 'smart.'

as i have relayed before, when i went to an all
black school, i got love for being smart. it wasn't
until i went to the mixed school that i even heard
an inkling of it. and i've never been accused of
'acting white.'

maybe mugs ain't getting dissed for being smart,
but for actually ACTING WHITE.
----------------------------------
The epitome of man’s sinfulness is trying to be like God, without God (Isaiah 14:14)

i had a conversation w/ ike mitts once about it. i can say one hunnid percent that i got special treatment in my neighborhood for being a smart cat, if anything, and im pretty sure his experience was real similar.



spooks like us

cuz I find I do it alot with latinos when the situation occurs and I wonder if blacks/whites hear some really derogatory shit or even just plain jokes and correct their fellow blacks/whites?

i used to fight with people till i was blue in the face anytime i heard them call Asians "chinks" or make stupid jokes about Latinos.

in the end, though, people just ended up looking at me like i was some kind of over-sensitive tight-ass, and they stopped ahnging around me. which is fine by me.

i pretty much got excommunicated from the African community within my first year in America because i used to get into fights at all their parties when they were talking shit about African-Americans.

but I'ma call it how I see it. sometimes tho like when my haitian, black americans or african friends get to making comments it's usually phrased as a joke so it depends on what mood I'm in. With latinos they're more likely to tell em str8 up since I'm latino too, not no jokes.

one time we went to this kenyan party and my haitian friend said he tried to holla at a girl and she spoke to him with clicks and clacks (like in the movie 'gods must be crazy' I couldn't help but laugh even tho I know I know that was wrong

>one time we went to this kenyan party and my haitian friend
>said he tried to holla at a girl and she spoke to him with
>clicks and clacks (like in the movie 'gods must be crazy' I
>couldn't help but laugh even tho I know I know that was wrong

There's stuff there that needs to be aired out

imagine the collective power of this board if we could find a way to fix these issues within our own microcosm? Maybe I'm idealistic but I think it could spread to the general public in due time

each one teach one as they say

props for at least attempting

_______________________________________
NO RING. NO SHAME.

I AIN'T CHANGED...DETROIT WHAT!!

you can't change the world in one swoop but you can make moves to change those around you

I honestly believe that all white people feel superior to minorities, but the interesting part is that I don't blame them. I don't agree w/it but I understand it to a certain degree.

They walk around w/the knowledge that thier ancestors OWNED my ancestors, so how in the hell should we expect them to feel we are all on the same page. I think it is a fucked up consequence of our history in this country, but that is the knowledge I take with me everyday, and I deal with all white people w/the opinion that they THINK they are better (to a certain extent) than me.

did not descend from slaveowners, though

of blacks and whites in this country. I believe even if they didn't have people in their family who owned slaves, they have associated w/people who didn't think slavery was that bad, and the average white person (according to the people I know) won't even cut off someone for being a blatent racist.

That puts us on two completely different pages, no matter how you look @ it.

and please don't tell me blacks can't be racist.

That all goes back to "definitions".

whom some would describe as racist are at the root feeling disenfranchised and frustrated. Comments that are made regarding white folks stem from those feelings, not superiority. There is a major difference.

I have an associate who is white and she is the "sweetest" person you'd wanna meet, her family goes out of their way to make me feel welcome in thier home. After a couple glasses of wine one night they all admitted (her mom and dad + bros and sisters) that they feel that white folks have been so successful around the world because they are smarter and stronger. Survival of the fittest if you will. I challenge you to find a white person who doesn't honestly believe that.

>whom some would describe as racist are at the root feeling
>disenfranchised and frustrated. Comments that are made
>regarding white folks stem from those feelings, not
>superiority. There is a major difference.

sadly, i will have to agree with you here, though:

After a couple glasses of
>wine one night they all admitted (her mom and dad + bros and
>sisters) that they feel that white folks have been so
>successful around the world because they are smarter and
>stronger. Survival of the fittest if you will. I challenge you
>to find a white person who doesn't honestly believe that.

we just have to deal w/the hand we've been given.

How in the hell can white people tell me they feel disenfranchised and frustrated when the very document that this countries "liberty and justice for all" was founded upon states that white supremecy is justified.

I stay confused by this. I just think a lot of white people just need something to complain about and that is real.

this is a white man's world.

but this is also a man's world.

this is also an attractive person's world.

this is also a rich person's world.

this is also a tall man's world in many respects.

its also a semi-religious person's world (people who subscribe to a maajor religion but don't stay TOO focused on it draw the most favor from the masses).

i could go on and on.

there are countless ways anyone who has been given one of the above blessings can still get shafted in life in many other ways.

But we all agree that white folx think they are betta. Than everyone else. Blacks, Hispanics, Asians etc. Now how in the hell can everything be really cool, do you understand what I'm trying to say?

On another note, I really want to understand how it must feel to be bi-racial when you fully understand the underlying issues w/race in this country (and others for that matter).

been a while since a i read guns, germs and steel, but as i recall, a white prof. from ucla made a pretty convincing point that circumstance and the ability to successfuly manipulate said circumstance are the reasons white people claimed that advantage.

there's your one white person.

methinks there might be a couple others.

i see your point, though.

the scene you painted sounds a lot like the story presented in "a town of two jaspers". that feeling of racial superiority lingers subtly still.

subtle superiority feelings about something?

.

cuz I assume (it may not be correct) that most blacks in America are descendents of slaves, so why can't I assume that most whites are descendents of slave owners? Clarify

less than 10% of the population owned slaves. of that 10%, ~1-2% were black slave owners. not all white people in the US descended from that 10% of the slave owning population. factor in mass waves of immigration and the 90% that didn't own slaves at all - and you can see this clearer, I'd suspect.

♥≠$&$≠¢

"yeah, you're good at playing ball, but...look what it did to your mind, you're one of the biggest idiots on here." - haj20

"Love Is The Law. Love Under Will."

that many southern slave owners & their families were killed during the Civil War, thus further reducing the potential for descendents.

♥≠$&$≠¢

"yeah, you're good at playing ball, but...look what it did to your mind, you're one of the biggest idiots on here." - haj20

"Love Is The Law. Love Under Will."

white folx got a mad superiority complex, especially americans. hello, who else thinks they can run around the world invading countries all willy nilly?

that many whites on this board have an inferiority complex (I hope I'm not misquoting)?

Because that's something I've noticed too, on OKP and in my life. White people who are not conscious of race either feel superior when they consider other races, or (more often I think) try to neglect race as much as possible.

But I think many whites, when they gain an understanding about race, begin to feel inferior to other races because racial dialogue often tells whites that they were given everything, that they are oppressors, even that they have no culture to be proud of (EDIT: and I hadn't even read #256 yet). All of which is true, to an extent, but I'm a firm believer that guilt should not be made into the motivation for any action...it should always stem from something more positive.

So maybe some people would say that we should internalize these feelings, feel shame, etc. but I personally don't think it helps anybody for white understanding of race to equate to this shame or feeling of relative cultural emptiness. But that seems to happen sometimes.

I think those same white people you refer to think (after learning about race relations and other cultures) "that's why these minorities are so behind, they cling too much to culture and moral issues".

As I stated before I think whites feel they are where they are because the are superior. I on the other hand feel they have reached the status they are currenly @ because unlike any other race, they repeatedly toss away any moral standard when it stands in the way of greed and accomplishment. Just my opinion....

>I think those same white people you refer to think (after
>learning about race relations and other cultures) "that's why
>these minorities are so behind, they cling too much to culture
>and moral issues".

How did you come to this conclusion? I've never heard what you put in quotes said or inferred. In fact, the racially conscious whites I know (which is too small a number BTW) would say that statement is very ignorant, just like you're saying.

>As I stated before I think whites feel they are where they are
>because the are superior. I on the other hand feel they have
>reached the status they are currenly @ because unlike any
>other race, they repeatedly toss away any moral standard when
>it stands in the way of greed and accomplishment. Just my
>opinion....

Here's my complaint with this statement: nobody, of any race, wants assumptions made about them, especially negative ones, based on racial generalizations. And yeah I know everyone makes them every day anyway, but I think making a conscious effort to look at the individual first before drawing race-based conclusions is human decency. Not to say I don't understand where you came to this generalization...but I still disagree with making it.

My field of work (HR) requires me to take the PC route at all times, but I still acknowledge reality in all situations.

You can look @ the history of caucasion people all over the world and it's painfully obvious.

The same folx who came over here because they wanted religious freedom slaughtered countless Native Americans in the very next breath. It doesn't sound pretty but that is the reality of White Americas past.

What I disagree with is taking this knowledge and approaching *every* white individual as if they fit the mold of this history.

but I'll keep an eye on it's progress though



My Mantra when dealing with White folks:

When you are playing with a dog, do not ever forget to keep a stick within reach

Akan Proverb

the most vocal and adamant on the black side will stay quiet until their feelings get hurt instead of being proactive.

What we need to do is start raking through the muddy water. The "not so easy" questions that actually DO rub people in the wrong way just for being asked.

If not to offend or start trouble, what was your intention in making the black power tattoo post? The underlying assumption is you have an understanding of what the fist symbol means to african-americans in this country.

(DS, props on this whole idea as it's way easier for people to act/be inactive out of fear, kudos for the usage of the term fuckshit in true South Floridian fashion)

I mean, I love Janey and her posts, but sometimes you have to bear responsibility for how someone reads and interprets a post. Your always going to have a few wackjobs, but considering how OKP LOVES to delve deeper to find drama, and we love to debate race it didn't take too much for that post to take a dark turn.

Like Keyboard has said, I found the reactions in the post to be the most interesting part of it, although not for the same reasons.

I *do* want that tattoo. Why? Because the upraised fist is a symbol of great strength and power and it's an incredibly positive symbol in my experience (remember that I was born in 1960, so my experience of it is marked by its use by the Black Panthers and other strong agents for change). I want it because I want to have an indelible reminder of what that symbol stands for (I did the same thing with a tattoo with sanskrit for Rama about 20 years ago, so that I could have no reason or excuse to forget or overlook spiritual issues).

And I *do* want it on my butt, for aesthetic reasons -- remember that I have a LOT of ink and I'm looking for a relatively clear area where it can stand out. And also, unlike many people, I have no negative connotations surrounding my posterior. None.

Why did I make the post as I did? I'd been rattling the thought of the tattoo around in my head for a while, and searching the internet for the right picture from which to model it, and then SUDDENLY it hit me how it could be misread, and I thought how weird and funny that would be. I made the post to make fun of my own sudden revelation and because that misreading would in fact be funny, should it occur.

I'm genuinely sorry that I hurt some people's feelings.

RATIONALLY?

(I admittedly thought you were up to something at first, and laughed it off. As I read more, I became a little upset--I'll admit that. I can't say that I KNOW-know your heart, but I know ENOUGH to know that I personally hold nothing against you. DO take care in such sensitive matters, though, dearest.)

i missed that...
um..link please?
-------

"Those are my principles. If you don't like them I have others." ~groucho

Wacky americans. you all need another hundred years or so to work this shit out, not a week in GD ~ Tohunga (in "THE DIFFICULT POST ABOUT RACE")

but i have to say i think the idea of having a raised fist tattooed on your ass is hilarious. if i saw that on your ass i'd think you were into fisting...the Black Power bit wouldn't occur to me at all b/c the fist being on your ass would be so far removed from the context of Black Power.

i can't stop laughing.

!

"I want the black power fist tattooed on my ass"

if that isnt fishing for controversy, im not sure what is

every last one of us assumed that was the case

and it went to damn near 200 replies with her only responding to one gay guy.

"SUDDENLY it hit me how it could be misread, and I thought how weird and funny that would be. I made the post to make fun of my own sudden revelation and because that misreading would in fact be funny, should it occur."

>"SUDDENLY it hit me how it could be misread

this statement applied to an interest in fisting being misread, not making the post. supposedly at that point it still didnt dawn on her that making the post would raise eyebrows

and I thought
>how weird and funny that would be. I made the post to make fun
>of my own sudden revelation and because that misreading would
>in fact be funny, should it occur."

again, the misreading she's talking about is an interest in fisting.

none of which really explains a white woman's bizarre interest in having a black power fist on her ass. i dont think much of our historical struggle is or should be material for others to experiment with by way of tattoos or making posts about said tattoos.

in sum, i find it hard to believe she's really that naive that she didnt expect anyone to be taken aback.

you go out of your way to be offended, it seems.

LOL

but this isnt about us and you werent witness to the particulars of the post in question, so let's remain constructive

I'll say this much, in the off chance that your intentions were pure, your presentation was god awful. not only did you not bother to go into the explanation above, but you were very limited with your words. I get the idea you wanted to be taken out of context by just saying "I (a white woman) want the black power fist tattooed on my ass"

at the time you seemed to revel in the fact that people were disturbed by going out of your way not to honor the grievances raised at that time.

I'm sorry your feelings were hurt. Genuinely sorry.

i dont understand why you would have a tatoo thats related to black empowerment anywhere on your body if you know its going to offend the group of ppl that had to endure tremendous suffering as a catalyst for that empowerment...

the idea that you can just disregard that baffles me...

i'm not easily offended...and this is a free country...but everything has its limitations...

"if you know" and "disregard".

I did NOT know that this would be offensive (and it is not in fact offensive to all). So I was not consciously "disregarding" its offensiveness -- I was ignorant of it.

So I am genuinely sorry to have offended you and others. Really. And I hope to learn from this experience.

But can we have further conversation on this topic? Because I'm still not completely understanding why this is offensive, since it is not *inherently* offensive or *all* Black people would have been offended by it, yes?

>"if you know" and "disregard"

weeeelll, not necessarily "know", but have a very strong suspicion...and i dont get why you WOULDN'T have a strong suspicion...

>So I am genuinely sorry to have offended you and others.
>Really. And I hope to learn from this experience.

accepted...no one is perfect and i'm sure most of us have done things to offend other groups not knowing how deeply it could affect them...i'm not innocent of that...and i think it takes a bold person to pick themselves apart and examine things about themselves they may find to be ugly (as it has been in my scenario), in a public forum no less...its so easy to just say fuck it

>But can we have further conversation on this topic? Because
>I'm still not completely understanding why this is offensive,
>since it is not *inherently* offensive or *all* Black people
>would have been offended by it, yes?

i dont think we can deal with *all* or *no one* here, bc everyone's different, but i think its a safe bet that most blk ppl would be offended by it...

i personally am offended by it bc first of all i'm irritated by white ppl who sport black cultural symbols to be seen as cool and/or progressive...not saying you were doing that, but i guess its just an assumption i would have about you if you were a stranger walking down the street...

i find it offensive bc, imho, a white woman's ass does not compliment the black power struggle or vice-versa...

a white woman's ass with a black power fist on it, becomes a symbol of what its not, which is a black woman's ass, a physical trait specific to black women and the one that most black men and usually only black men tend to favor over all others...put that in context with the Black Power Movement itself, and how some black men liked to be with white women for the taste of power and freedom and revenge a la Eldridge Cleaver...and...you kind of get something that appears intrustive and mocking...

but thats just my take on it...other ppl might be offended for different reasons...

and you and the gay guy were just makin jokes
you didn't know it was offensive?

i'm bout to continue on a tangent, deal...

http://bkbrickhouse.blogspot.com
last updated 062905 the "mama i love you" (boyz ii men) entry

<-- tahir the lil' afro man by afrikankween

i'm bout to continue on a tangent, deal...

http://bkbrickhouse.blogspot.com
last updated 062905 the "mama i love you" (boyz ii men) entry

<-- tahir the lil' afro man by afrikankween

about her & her people. great post though.

I'd say fire is racist

???eV???•..

wheres mkim??

"I TELL THESE HOES TO SUK MY DICK FROM THE BACK CUH. IM SITTIN SIDEWAYZ ON EM!.THEY CAN SUK MY DICK FROM THE BACK! I GOT MY HEAD TOWARDS THE CEILIN MY BACK TURNED ON DEEZ HOEZ SITTIN SIDEWAYZ ON EM.(C)drunk nygga

theres no reason to anchor this. your ego is huge dude.

also, someone made this exact same post last week, I'm tempted to lock.

FREE CHAI VANG!


Certified Grade A Coon - Inspector Abrock33

http://rjcc.stumbleupon.com - what I'm looking at

mr mighty mod won't do it

how u like the HEAT now?

I'd lock it too. the audacity.


FREE CHAI VANG!


Certified Grade A Coon - Inspector Abrock33

http://rjcc.stumbleupon.com - what I'm looking at

LV...Lord of the Link

sal de medio que voy pasando
demonstrando como e' el mambo
traigo un swing como clemente
potente
el caballote aunque te absente

the person who posted it wasn't a regular tho, so I may just not have found it when I searched.


FREE CHAI VANG!


Certified Grade A Coon - Inspector Abrock33

http://rjcc.stumbleupon.com - what I'm looking at

LV...Lord of the Link

sal de medio que voy pasando
demonstrando como e' el mambo
traigo un swing como clemente
potente
el caballote aunque te absente

it's in my original post, it's the difference between tempted to lock and this post just having been locked. I already looked for the other post, go cheerlead on some shit you know.


FREE CHAI VANG!


Certified Grade A Coon - Inspector Abrock33

http://rjcc.stumbleupon.com - what I'm looking at

LV...Lord of the Link

sal de medio que voy pasando
demonstrando como e' el mambo
traigo un swing como clemente
potente
el caballote aunque te absente

sounds like you are a moth to the racist flame

i thought the kiddy bop was ruining GD

but whateva

LV...Lord of the Link

sal de medio que voy pasando
demonstrando como e' el mambo
traigo un swing como clemente
potente
el caballote aunque te absente

OK punanyas

read guideline #11

Creating something that even slightly resembles a Temporary Autonomous Zone is DIFFICULT. You have to try and create an atmosphere that allows people to be themselves, but then SHAPE that atmosphere so it doesn't immediately degenerate.

That takes time.

I ain't even gonna mess with y'all mofo's

*turns around and walks out*

In relation to OKP:

Why do certain white OKPs (Stattic, Bluetiger, Hyde, Janey etc) respond in discourse around black issues imperative to our community as if they are an 'authority' on black people???? Nature determined that your will never, ever, ever have the 'experince' of being a black person, Why is it that you fail to understand that by default that your information/knowledge etc of black people will always be just an opinion???? And then when black folks on here call you on it, the arrogance mainfests and you get upset.

I could accumlate all the knowledge in the world of/about women, you think I will ever have a complete understanding of what a woman is...???

General question:

Argue/Defend the claim, that as a group of people, 'Europeans/white people' are spiritually bereft??? Historically any religious/spiritual foundation or organisation that white people have started and continues to this day is stolen/borrowed from people of colour.


I'll think of some more later...


P.S Darryl Licke and Remymartin inspired me to post this. Peace

>In relation to OKP:
>
>Why do certain white OKPs (Stattic, Bluetiger, Hyde, Janey
>etc) respond in discourse around black issues imperative to
>our community as if they are an 'authority' on black
>people???? Nature determined that your will never, ever,
>ever have the 'experince' of being a black person, Why is it
>that you fail to understand that by default that your
>information/knowledge etc of black people will always be just
>an opinion???? And then when black folks on here call you on
>it, the arrogance mainfests and you get upset.
>
>I could accumlate all the knowledge in the world of/about
>women, you think I will ever have a complete understanding of
>what a woman is...???

The 'tone' of their involvement in the conversation I won't get into(because I think amoung the wide variety of white posters I don't think you can't paint them with the same brush). I personally LOVE when they put their two cents in, especially the more controversal ones. It keeps you on your toes, and its interesting to see how the other side thinks.

The arrogance when someone slips up and says soemthing stupid comes from 1)Nobody wants to be wrong 2)Nobody wants to be seen as a racist.

>Argue/Defend the claim, that as a group of people,
>'Europeans/white people' are spiritually bereft???
>Historically any religious/spiritual foundation or
>organisation that white people have started and continues to
>this day is stolen/borrowed from people of colour.

I won't argue this point because at this point i figure 1)You don't want black peoples answers, and 2)Im a little too practical and jaded to answer a question on spirituality.

>(because I think amoung the wide variety of white posters I don't think you can't paint them with the same brush).

Seriously, in my experience on dis here OKP, the only white person that shows a level of understanding is Hochigrimm...


>I personally LOVE when they put their two cents in, especially the more controversal ones. It keeps you on your toes, and its interesting to see how the other side thinks

They never say anything new Reg, got to the point whereas you can predict what they gonna say, before they say it, Same ol shit...


My Mantra when dealing with White folks:

When you are playing with a dog, do not ever forget to keep a stick within reach

Akan Proverb

Yeah, in the 'Racism Kumbaya!' posts its kind of easy to see where its going to go.

But its always interesting to hear someone gives their two cents, especially in an unrelated subject.

I mean I loath to give someone props off their skewered moral views, but I LOVE to see it in print and debated.

There was a poster..hrm...a year ago who I noticed would pop into posts and give wierd but interesting responses to a wide variety of posts so i remembered his name. Eventually he got cornered in a racial one and admitted he was a supremamicst who was lurking for a while, and sat there and debated for a whole post(although that was the last time he was seen). I hate to admit it, but I find that more interesting then lets say a post about how 'racism is wrong' and we get a hundred co-signs. Considering OKP is mainly black and liberal, I think its easier at times to get more fruitful conversation when people are being truthful with their biases(or getting caught with them) then a mostly conservative or white board.

the indian dude. i totally remember that as well.
the back & forth with sociologik was a hell of a post.

brethren

i'm bout to continue on a tangent, deal...

http://bkbrickhouse.blogspot.com
last updated 062905 the "mama i love you" (boyz ii men) entry

<-- tahir the lil' afro man by afrikankween

>In relation to OKP:
>
>Why do certain white OKPs (Stattic, Bluetiger, Hyde, Janey
>etc) respond in discourse around black issues imperative to
>our community as if they are an 'authority' on black
>people???? Nature determined that your will never, ever,
>ever have the 'experince' of being a black person, Why is it
>that you fail to understand that by default that your
>information/knowledge etc of black people will always be just
>an opinion???? And then when black folks on here call you on
>it, the arrogance mainfests and you get upset.

I'd need examples. I've never noticed this from Hyde or Bluetiger at least. Are they black issues that involve white people? Are they being authoritative to other blacks? I think we, as white people need to shoulder responsibility for discussing racism amongst ourselves, not just around, or at the prodding of minorities.

I do agree with what you're saying though. J-Sun said the same thing in a post about a year ago, which you probably remember

>I could accumlate all the knowledge in the world of/about
>women, you think I will ever have a complete understanding of
>what a woman is...???
>
>General question:
>
>Argue/Defend the claim, that as a group of people,
>'Europeans/white people' are spiritually bereft???
>Historically any religious/spiritual foundation or
>organisation that white people have started and continues to
>this day is stolen/borrowed from people of colour.

like what? Are you speaking major religions, what? This isn't clear.
I would agree with music and dance, but you gotta define what you mean
>I'll think of some more later...
>
>
>P.S Darryl Licke and Remymartin inspired me to post this.
>Peace
>
>
>
>
>

but i think the white people you refer to are guided by individual ego.

when a person accumulates a certain amount of info about any topic, s/he is very likely to feel confident when exposed to that topic. on the subject of race, there's a very important difference between "knowing" and "understanding". re: the white people who seem to feel authorized to speak...they clearly know something, but they may not have recognized the limits of their own knowledge. which, i'd say, is a function of ego.

My Mantra when dealing with White folks:

When you are playing with a dog, do not ever forget to keep a stick within reach

Akan Proverb

|Fliteweight|

oh, honey. i stay on your mind, huh?

you're barking up the wrong tree with this one.

What makes his claim false? Go into it, because someone else might be wondering. Not about YOU, but about the issue.






Zorak.

but the issue itself is old news, and it's widely agreed upon by pretty much everyone with any sense. i think there's even an archived post dedicated to it. if angelo is looking for an apology or a qualification every time a white poster hits send, he's not going to get what he wants.

what makes the claim false is the inclusion of my name, and that's as far as i'm going to take this discussion. those who know me know what's up; i'm certainly not going to spend time defending myself against an accusation made by one of the most vehement racists on the board.

As Hyde has declined to discuss this issue further, I ask that no baiting take place.

>most vehement racists on the board...

I believe that this is the first time ever I've been called such, however coming from a white person, it catergorically reassures me that one is on the right path. As Malcolm said 'the moment white folks like me, I'm doing something wrong"

I'll will duly respect your inability to have a discourse.


My Mantra when dealing with White folks:

When you are playing with a dog, do not ever forget to keep a stick within reach

Akan Proverb

My name is always in your mouth. Let it go.

I don't do what you mention in your post. Your accusations are baseless.
If anything, I have only called you out on your racist BS about "whites". And the best you ever reply with is threats and asinine comments. Jerk off with someone else's user name.


♥≠$&$≠¢

"yeah, you're good at playing ball, but...look what it did to your mind, you're one of the biggest idiots on here." - haj20

"Love Is The Law. Love Under Will."

My Mantra when dealing with White folks:

When you are playing with a dog, do not ever forget to keep a stick within reach

Akan Proverb

>Why do certain white OKPs (Stattic, Bluetiger, Hyde, Janey
>etc) respond in discourse around black issues imperative to
>our community as if they are an 'authority' on black
>people????

want for acceptance/to show that they have knowledge/to show that they aren't racist

and sometimes to reach out to fellow whites who have less knowledge.

> Nature determined that your will never, ever,
>ever have the 'experince' of being a black person, Why is it
>that you fail to understand that by default that your
>information/knowledge etc of black people will always be just
>an opinion???? And then when black folks on here call you on
>it, the arrogance mainfests and you get upset.

I can't argue with this.

>General question:
>
>Argue/Defend the claim, that as a group of people,
>'Europeans/white people' are spiritually bereft???
>Historically any religious/spiritual foundation or
>organisation that white people have started and continues to
>this day is stolen/borrowed from people of colour.

I don't really know how to argue the first point other than saying, I know I have a soul, so I can't be "spiritually bereft". As far as the second point goes it is true that most predominant systems of belief nowadays are rooted in either Semitic or Asian people, as far as I know, Wicca is the only European based belief system still surviving, but I'm sure somebody knows another.

However it seems to be true that culturally, white people in America are less inclined to be spiritual/religious... there's such a wealth of sociological reasons for this that it's beyond the scope of this post, I think... perhaps it can be boiled down to people going through hardship tend to turn to religion as a support system, and white folks tend to go through fewer hardships.

>Why do certain white OKPs (Stattic, Bluetiger, Hyde, Janey
>etc) respond in discourse around black issues imperative to
>our community as if they are an 'authority' on black
>people???? Nature determined that your will never, ever,
>ever have the 'experince' of being a black person, Why is it
>that you fail to understand that by default that your
>information/knowledge etc of black people will always be just
>an opinion???? And then when black folks on here call you on
>it, the arrogance mainfests and you get upset.

on whether affirmative action is still needed (yes) and whether certain epithets are ever appropriately used by anyone (no).

like I expected you to be objective, those folks are your friends/allies on here.


My Mantra when dealing with White folks:

When you are playing with a dog, do not ever forget to keep a stick within reach

Akan Proverb

so try not to assume or "expect" anything from me.

>like I expected you to be objective, those folks are your
>friends/allies on here.
>
>
>My Mantra when dealing with White folks:
>
>When you are playing with a dog, do not ever forget to keep a
>stick within reach

^^^ this says a lot more about you and "objectivity" than my post said about me.

Nothing I post speaks from a black persepective because I'm white and furthermore, the issues that I comment on affect us all, just because something may be imperative to the black community, doesn't mean that only affects the black community. Lastly, you are probably one of the least open-minded people on the boards. I am able to conversate productively with almost everyone on this board on these issues. For example, BigReg and I have disagreed many time on a lot of issues, but at the end of the day, I respect his opinion. However, you attack people when they don't agree with you and that's probably not going to serve you well in life. People have different opinions, rather than attack, discuss bitch.

What would you do to change it?


You can fight a war for a long time or you can make your nation strong.
You can't do both. ~ (The Art of War)

it seems a certain sector of Black folk here find it collectively cool to diss White people just for the sake of them being White. i've seen lots of blatantly racist/racially prejudiced things said here and while i would never dream of cracking my face to say them, it rolls off other people's tongues like water off a duck's back.

i wonder is this something that's only done here because you see other people doing it and it's "accepted" or is this how you were raised? does your family share your views on White folks?

also, the use of the word nigger/nigga - is it also used regularly in your household/daily life and do you really say it as much as you type it?

~K

.:Southern Belle::Magnolia Smell:.

?UESTLOVE @ QUO PHOTOS SOON! | www.rareformnyc.com

there is no kristy - only zool.

In my Pop's household it was always about the white man being racist or "keeping a brotha down". He always used to come home and tell us about some crazy thing a white person said or did to him at work and then he would laugh about it, or smoke some weed. My mother never said a thing about white people or racism and she probably encountered more racism (and sexism) on the job as a computer programmer than all of us...but she was obsessed with the origins of evil (philosophy was her major) and she was bi-polar. I often wondered if what she experienced at the workplace precipitated her manic episodes. She would come home from work and be manic...for like six weeks, twice per year.

Also, my Pops said nigga a lot but my mother never said it.

.

periodically, however my intelligence informs me for my own personal development, that it is immature and falls far short of my committment to being congruent... On reflection I think I would be uncomfortable if my children (if I had them) were walking around saying cracker ass cracker etc...

Nigger/nigga, used to be a periodic word in my vocab, however in recent years I have increasingly grown to despise the word and I am more apt to use the word King, blood, brother etc than nigger.

Ultimately the word will be removed from my vocabulary...


I thought this post was about asking questions of the 'the others'??

I noticed your style of posting is pretty 'Kum, ba yah' and you tend to put the onus on black folks in these type of debates....

Just an observation *shrugs*



My Mantra when dealing with White folks:

When you are playing with a dog, do not ever forget to keep a stick within reach

Akan Proverb

it sounds foreign to them to me but i don't know....



www.port-morgan.com
www.madeinmtl.com
www.darfurinfo.org

since the late eighties, that's how it nestled in my vocab, I was the only one saying amongst my peers. Cats didn't like me saying it, it's a cultural thing, a good 70% of black families here, their origins lie in the Carribean, Carribeans folks don't play that nigger back and forth ting, but most muthafuckers either couldn't tell me shit, or politely asked me not to say it.

Forward to late nineties and the advent or commericialisation of Hip-Hop worldwide, this preciptated a universal usage of the word amongst the youth over here, which leaves a vile taste in my mouth. I have to introduce a whole hour and half session around the word in my personal development program for young black men, to combat the madness...


My Mantra when dealing with White folks:

When you are playing with a dog, do not ever forget to keep a stick within reach

Akan Proverb

first, thanks for answering.

>I noticed your style of posting is pretty 'Kum, ba yah' and
>you tend to put the onus on black folks in these type of
>debates....

hm... interesting observation.

as for a lot of my posts being kumbayah - i've heard this before. what exactly do you mean and what's the matter with that?

regarding your second comment - maybe that's because, personally, the people that i'm most worried, concerned about, and want to see do well is my own people. i think that we don't question ourselves enough out of fear of coming of as hating ourselves or being too hard on one another or for "acting white." i see nothing wrong w/ taking my own people to task for things or for at least asking questions of one another's motives or actions.

so i don't feel that the onus (nice word!) should always be on us and i don't intend to come off that way at all. maybe that's something i need to be more mindful of.

~K

.:Southern Belle::Magnolia Smell:.

?UESTLOVE @ QUO PHOTOS SOON | www.rareformnyc.com

there is no kristy - only zool.

...as I have previously stated.

Rational discourse, please.

>as for a lot of my posts being kumbayah - i've heard this before. what exactly do you mean and what's the matter with that?

I guess one can describe it as an 'all inclusive, type of post, 'let's not exclude the white folks', etc style of posting... And honestly... there isn't nary a thing wrong with it, maybe sub-conciously, my barb directed to you, is me expressing an admiration in your faith for a that dream Martin Luther talked about in his speech, 'little white boys and little black boys etc'. However there is an ineffable feeling of discomfort at 'my' perception/belief at yourself and others naivety with your faith in White people... Intellectually, I reconcile this with the fact, that my experiences/worldview are what shape me to some extent and equally yours are what shape you...

As a visual metaphor, can you picture a black person crossing a busy highway??? I'll be watching and rooting for them to get to the other side safely, secretly maybe envying dem for being so brave to venture across, but finding comfort, relief and confirmation in the inevitability of a automobile crashing into dem... Those automobiles will be white folks...


So yeah, in a snipy kinda way, maybe I'm expressing an admiration...


Peace & apoligies, I'll refrain from doing so in the future.

blacks can't be racist

bigotry is the cornerstone of most households unless you eat tofu & plant trees, save whales & shit

even bible thumpers throw in a few no-yt's erry now & then

*****
Gina is out of control
I'm out of control
the whole--damn--party
--is--out--of control!
(c) White Bob
*****

i can't remember my mother ever saying negative stuff about white ppl as a whole. my aunt & uncle made it clear they didn't want me dating white girls (LOL) but that's all they ever said about white ppl as a whole that i can recall.

and i say nigga a lot more than i do here b/c i don't like using the word in mixed company.

We talk about white people where I'm how we've experienced them, and most of it isnt going to be favorable. I don't see it changing until the experiences changes... right!
*****
Gina is out of control
I'm out of control
the whole--damn--party
--is--out--of control!
(c) White Bob
*****

what do those of you who live down South and out West think of us as a whole?

when you see/hear me say i don't cross Roosevelt or Ashland for no bullshit, what do you think i mean by that?

to tell the troof.



wait.
this was a sideways dumb question, yo.

--------------------
kaguya-hime.
http://dnegative.deviantart.com/

>what do those of you who live down South and out West think
>of us as a whole?

nothing. but when i was younger, i as well as everyone around me, would clown anyone who wasn't from the s. side (westsiders like to bust guns for no reason & northsiders were soft, (b)yuppies)...spending time else where lead to the change

>when you see/hear me say i don't cross Roosevelt or Ashland
>for no bullshit, what do you think i mean by that?

comes off as arrogance or playful...it depends on the person's intention & if he/she is ignorant of the areas...at times i say shit about the west & north side in jest

what do those of you who live down South and out West think of us as a whole?

when you see/hear me say i don't cross Roosevelt or Ashland for no bullshit, what do you think i mean by that?

(with very little time to expound)

i think y'all are closer to better resources. that's my first thought. i don't know what's in the heads of black people based simply on where they live. i do know that it is easier when you have better access to the things you want and need. it probably looks better on a resume, too.

as for your statement, how can i fault you? i don't hear you saying you don't like black or poor people. that would be a problem for me. you're not an activist or anything so you don't have any obligations.

i hear you saying that those areas have little to offer you. i may not agree because there's some good shit on the south side & i'm thinking if you had a lot of family there you might visit. but i think i hear you most saying you don't want the stress of ghetto life. & really, who the fuck does?

i'd be out South more often if i had a car. as things are it rarely seems worth the while to spend more than an hour riding 100+ blocks on the CTA to get to anything.

but since you raised this in a post about race & not about transportation it carries some kinds of other meaning. maybe not for you but probably for the people you say it to, white or black.

reversing your other question: do you have any thoughts about black people on the south or west sides?

>but since you raised this in a post about race & not about
>transportation it carries some kinds of other meaning. maybe
>not for you but probably for the people you say it to, white
>or black.

^^ exactly. i think when i say i don't mess w/the South or West Sides that ppl hear that as me saying i have a problem w/Black ppl.

>reversing your other question: do you have any thoughts about
>black people on the south or west sides?

i think they're bigoted like everyone else in Chicago.

This board is hardly a microcosm of anything except maybe some college multi-cultural organization.

Alot of the arguments that go on here are simply stupid and wouldn't happen in real life, because most likely it'll be in a power situation where one person can do nothing (usually black) or a situation where it will be met in violence. If we are really going to dialogue about something then it should be on how we are mutually getting fucked.

I come from a homogenous black community and we from as far as i can tell dont necessarily care to intermingle with white people outside of what is necessary. That squashes alot of shit that goes on in here from the get, that's my world, a world in which dealing with white ignorance/racism etc is at a minimum.

I've been in many situations where i was a minority, college, work, volunteer shit. Race relation will not change until structures and systems change by people who will work towards those things without trying to impose some imaginary this is how blacks and white should get along... because most of the black folks I know are more concerned about how the bills are going to get paid.

*****
Gina is out of control
I'm out of control
the whole--damn--party
--is--out--of control!
(c) White Bob
*****

do you even want to live alongside whites?

Do you see anything constructive occuring without discourse?

Ideally, would blacks/and or people of color have their own country with automatic citizenship rights or something? (just as a concept)

Growing up it has always been all Black communities, and even when visiting fam out of state it has always been in all black or mostly black communities. It's normal to me and a whole lot of black folks. So much that we dont even deal with race relations on the regular. I don't think it has been an issue for Blacks to live in predominantly white communities in like many suburbs, but it's a sociological phenomena where whites don't live in communities where they are not a majority.

Discourse is necessary, but I don't think discourse about people's attitudes are the most productive because those attitudes are shaped mostly by the conditions in which we live. If groups/communities have similar political interest and goals then I see no problem working together. But trying to force something that has been nurtured over centuries based off of some color blind vision just seems like a bad sequel to crash.

If ignorance is the main problem, black folks don't necessarily need white folks telling us how we are ignorant and vice versa. honestly I believe many people like living in a state of ignorance. Plus if we are to combat ignorance i'd rather it be about the machinations of this country rather than what white people smell like when they get wet.

*****
Gina is out of control
I'm out of control
the whole--damn--party
--is--out--of control!
(c) White Bob
*****

>Growing up it has always been all Black communities, and even
>when visiting fam out of state it has always been in all black
>or mostly black communities. It's normal to me and a whole lot
>of black folks. So much that we dont even deal with race
>relations on the regular. I don't think it has been an issue
>for Blacks to live in predominantly white communities in like
>many suburbs, but it's a sociological phenomena where whites
>don't live in communities where they are not a majority.


>Discourse is necessary, but I don't think discourse about
>people's attitudes are the most productive because those
>attitudes are shaped mostly by the conditions in which we
>live. If groups/communities have similar political interest
>and goals then I see no problem working together. But trying
>to force something that has been nurtured over centuries based
>off of some color blind vision just seems like a bad sequel to
>crash.

I agree that discourse alone isn't going change the state of affairs, but it needs to happen for there to be any break in the apathy towards the disparities in health, prison, and educational systems, that there needs to be discussion.

But I'm not suggesting a color blind vision, that's what this is about avoiding.
>If ignorance is the main problem, black folks don't
>necessarily need white folks telling us how we are ignorant
>and vice versa. honestly I believe many people like living in
>a state of ignorance. Plus if we are to combat ignorance i'd
>rather it be about the machinations of this country rather
>than what white people smell like when they get wet.

This I wholeheartedly agree with. If someone confronts me with ignorance in person, I take them on then. I recognize okp as a venting grounds.
>Gina is out of control
>I'm out of control
>the whole--damn--party
>--is--out--of control!
>(c) White Bob
>*****

Didn't get my anchor, which is really okay by me. At least the post is still here.

I'm going to put some random thoughts out there:

My biggest problem with the manner in which race is portrayed on OKP stems from what I perceive as a lack of balance. And I think that said imbalance manifests itself best when those of us most plagued by the issues of race are willing to play until the fourth quarter, but never too willing to take it into overtime...you know what I mean?

I can say, without regard for reprimand from ANYONE, that I have gained a greater sense of balance by placing myself on the "other side of the fence" while retaining the same sense of self that my family instilled in me back home in Memphis. I do not feel that I live in two separate worlds or two different realities--I live in the same one that everybody else does. What fosters my understanding is my ability to understand race as God's Big Riddle (and you can blame that on Burning Man or LSD or whatever) Once you see EVERYTHING--once the punchline finally hits you--you can't turn around and pretend you didn't experience it. You have to come back and try to explain it to people.

I recall being directly challenged and insulted on the basis that Shimmy and I dated, in OKP's public view, for close to three years. That didn't sit too well with certain people here, and it sadly cost me a few valued allegiances. I've long understood their rationale for taking a position against what I was doing, but I cannot say that I take that rationale to heart. Meaning: I understand MY history enough to know why people would feel that way, but I cannot share in the mindset. I feel that it's against my principles as an evolving human being.

IN SAYING THAT, I MUST REITERATE THAT I REFUSE TO PLACE MYSELF IN ANY SORT OF POSITION "ABOVE " ANYONE ELSE.

As I stated in the intial post, I have no intention in explaining any motives I have for initiating this discussion. This post is not about "me"--it's about the racial state of affairs on this message board, a place that TOTALLY didn't look like this when I first logged on years ago.

Yes, I know--we go over these things over and over again, ad nauseum..."oh, Lord, it's another race post." But I do not feel that the acquisition of understanding is something you yawn and scoff at, or threaten to remove from the public discourse because it's been discussed over and over again. We keep doing this, and this same creature continues to rear its ugly head, because we're NOT GETTING TO THE HEART OF THE MATTER IN OUR MINDS. We're not really saying what we need to say, in the most effective way possible. That's why I did this post. It's not about ego, has nothing to do with me. (In fact--I ask that RJCC inbox me, so that we can engage in civil and private discussion about the fact that we don't seem to enjoy each other very much. It's a very boring state of affairs that I'm interested in clearing up with him. But I digress.)

I have no plans or proposals for any of you. I only encourage a more honest degree of conversation in this matter--the kind that you DON'T NORMALLY ENGAGE IN.

Please continue to ask questions and find the truth that concerns all of us, as I will continue to do so.

...to "take it into overtime" if you catch my drift.

Race is an illusion that we perpetuate out of habit, based on our conditioning or because it maintains the status quo.

>Meaning: I understand MY history enough to know why
>people would feel that way, but I cannot share in the mindset.
>I feel that it's against my principles as an evolving human
>being.
>
>IN SAYING THAT, I MUST REITERATE THAT I REFUSE TO PLACE MYSELF
>IN ANY SORT OF POSITION "ABOVE " ANYONE ELSE.

But this does not mean other people will not try to assert their assumed superiority over others. Your (or my) personal experience should not negate the experiences of others, even if it's hurtful. The playing field must be equal before there can really be any lasting change.

I DO see what else is on the plate.

From THIS level, though, I promote truthful conversation.

The only reason I don't like you is because you make the same stupid post over and over again and pretend its new, different, and/or not based on your own ego. I think if you stopped doing that, you'd be a better person, and since improving DeeEss is one of my life goals, I'm going to keep reminding you how much you currently suck.


The entire reason there are the race posts on here that are on here is the same reason nikamandela keeps asking questions that don't make sense. Those people are comfortable saying that shit here.

This post as "safe zone" is laughable, because it ignores the fact that the entire board is as safe as you percieve it to be, the worst you can do is be e-yelled at by someone with a differing opinion.

you just don't get it, and likely never will. or well, you might, but you probably will ignore it because it doesn't make you feel smart.



FREE CHAI VANG!


Certified Grade A Coon - Inspector Abrock33

http://rjcc.stumbleupon.com - what I'm looking at

Not in this post, please.

the part where you admit you haven't read nearly enough of the posts you're commenting on to be able to do so accurately?

inbox if necessary.



FREE CHAI VANG!


Certified Grade A Coon - Inspector Abrock33

http://rjcc.stumbleupon.com - what I'm looking at

I'd just rather that we don't go round-and-round in this post and litter it up, is all.

she consciously made a post for whatever reason, she knew the repercussions; she's shown in the past she atleast moderate reasoning skills. An apology don't change anything, she now "Janey that made that dumb ass post"

*****
Gina is out of control
I'm out of control
the whole--damn--party
--is--out--of control!
(c) White Bob
*****

that I should be judged on one mistake rather than years of kindness and generosity. Okay, I can see that. That's fair.

This is a message board, people are judged based off of what they post. I don't know you, but I know what you posted the other day. You haven't been kind or generous to me. If you mean Black people in general then the general Black people can feel however they wanna feel. lol they've forgiven Eminem right? I'm just saying apologies hold very little weight, and it is not likely that people are going to forget. As far as based behavior it just gives the people who "like" you more reason to be shocked and upset, I was neither.

*****
Gina is out of control
I'm out of control
the whole--damn--party
--is--out--of control!
(c) White Bob
*****

words mean little if anything. This is just a message board. Gifts are irrelevant and thoughtfulness makes no difference. That's absolutely fair. I agree with you.

or at least you're pretending not to have done so

I'm genuinely sorry that feelings were hurt.

Please help me understand better.

...please grant Jane the same autonomy that the moderator-on-watch and I am attempting to maintain for all of you.

Let's not sneer our experiment into oblivion, folks.

reminds me of reading The Heart of Darkness.

but i think its that you took a strong symbol of blk pride and power and perverted it. may or maynot have been your intention but it happened and folks felt offended.

"perverted it"

How did I pervert it again?

The symbol of the fist was manifested by a collective energy. It's a talisman (we're very much like our ancestors, after all). The reason for its existence is one that you know, so I won't go into all that.

On a more tangible level, sure!...some guy sat down, drew it on a piece of paper, showed it to his homies and BAM! It's the symbol of Blk Power. On a more intangible level, it houses certain sentiments. It symbolizes determination, self-reliance, force and STRENGTH (most of all).

The rationale behind this symbol being off-limits to whites goes, "We have something that reminds us of how strong we were then, and how strong we are now." The "we," of course, being blk Americans.

To take such a sacred instrument and tattoo it on a white ass implies a type of cultural appropriation that is not easily excused, as well a continuing mistrust of white female sexuality (any anti-interracial dating post expounds on that). The fact that you want it on your ass sends a message that you may hold little regard for WHAT the symbol represents.

The symbol becomes cheapened. The collective power we place into it is weakened. It's no longer a talisman--it's Madonna's Religion of the Month.

If you're familiar with the filmmaker Alejandro Jodorowsky, he enjoys playing with sacred symbols in his films. He just throws them around in different scenes and settings, attempting to remove their cultural meanings for the sake of art. The thing is, blkfolx have a HUGE investment in symbols--especially symbols that exert a needed strength in a seemingly-impossible landscape. So we hold them close to our hearts, and generally refuse to trust them in the hands of those who might not share the DIRECT and INTIMATE connection we have with them.

That's just how we can be, Jane.

Thanks.

but part of me feels what should really be address is the classism that obviously an issue to most of the blk folks who post here. to me that is much more bothersom than the blk/white issue on the boards. part of me expects that.

if you are poor, you got it bad and out of the loop for the "american dream."
however, if you are poor and person of color i.e. black, hispanic, native american, mexican, you got it REAL bad.

i'm referring to some of the attitudes displayed on the boards by "privilaged blks" who seem to turn their noses down on the economically challenged blks. also, the "you embarrass us" attitude as if all blk are suppose to be one dimensional creatures and behave in a uniform manner.

I look forward to conversation here, along those lines. It's really not out of the context, after all.

I'll just co-sign to what GirlChild said here. I will say that I think this post has the best of intentions. It truly is unfortunate that some have chosen to attack the author of the post.

We can have discourse without delving into the name calling and personal attacks.

As to the Janey post, I took it for what it was a joke and that she did know it may be taken the wrong way (this is okp after all) but I don't think her intent was to insult anyone.

I will say that some okps are very selective about what they choose to ride for with regards to racial topics and sometimes will find the racism in anything and directed at anyone. People gun for Janey (whether deserved or not) and think that she talks on issues she should have no business doing.....Janey is grown and has been here a lot longer than I have and I don't think she needs defending.

She did apologize and I guess to those that were offended they can choose to accept it or not. I am aware no matter what she says she has been "demonized" already.

That "demonization" if you will is another ugly side that we need to get into. Remy Martin has made some interesting points....

I might be back....
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Im selling 'Don't forget your Lunch at home' T-shirts" $8 each, 3 for $25 (c) BigReg

I need a bit more, cuz he could be all cut up and look like some shut up (c)Gravity508

I'll be a shallow ass muthafucka ... li

then you defend her lol

i don't know how people can believe the "i didn't know" bit.
but whatever...


i'm bout to continue on a tangent, deal...

http://bkbrickhouse.blogspot.com
last updated 062905 the "mama i love you" (boyz ii men) entry

<-- tahir the lil' afro man by afrikankween

i am all for discussions on race relations in an effort to move towards greater mutual understanding. i've devoted much of my life to the subject. i also think that okp is a great place to have such a discussion.

i don't have any questions to ask here myself, but i would like to offer that while it's important to have an open forum to ask questions, i think a slightly more structured forum might be more effective. perhaps some things for folks to read, some specific discussion questions, etc. (yeah, the teacher is coming out of me here) might be helpful.

regardless, thanks for posting this. i hope some progress is made.

...............................................................................................................................................
"ignorance is the night of the mind, but a night without moon and star." confucius

Being from Seattle I tolerate white people. I have no dislikes to them. But the Stereotype with some still have on us as black folks is stoneage to me. But we live in a world where not everyone is gonna like me because I am black and vice versa.

I just lost a great friend who was with we been friends for over 14 years. She's white and because she dates a white man with no relations with black folx whatsoever. She tells me that she feels as if she could never be herself because she had to do the "black thing to be accepted." When I met her she was gruge girl, who listened to rock. I accepted her for her. So I do like some white ppl. and it's just because we get along. Thats it. But black folx get hated on by the world thats why were are defensive and most rather have friendshi within our own communities. Because when shit goes wrong and even if we have yt folks who like us... some of them turn.

Me or my color there is nothing I can do about that. I only accept people who accept me. Sometimes I get angry with white folx for their stereotypes against us. Thats all.

Me or my color there is nothing I can do about that. I only accept people who accept me. Sometimes I get angry with white folx for their stereotypes against us. Thats all.

There isn't anything I can say to justify it or rationalize it, I can't even apologize for her. But, it's better that you know she was never really "with" you, I think... anyone that can cut off a friend of 14 years because they started dating a racist (that's how I read what you posted, correct me if I'm wrong) was in it for the wrong reasons from jump.

My apologies to you.

And this isn't about me.

let's talk openly about the black-white thing. what's the big deal about that? don't we do that ALL THE TIME here?

I am simply encouraging a more rational, more specific and more levelheaded environment of discussion. In my six years here, such attempts at this often degenerate--that's why I'm watching this post closely. That's why there's a mod monitoring it.

Again, my apologies if this reads as the same-old-same-old.

http://board.okayplayer.com/okp.php?az=show_topic&forum=4&topic_id=868137&mesg_id=868137&page=#870760

on the beholdme/chrisdefendorf level.





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I mean we all gather here for chucks and giggles and it gets real half the time...but dang is it really that real that an alias from the scotts gotta come up in here joking or not and call that man out on some racial slur...

and act or not...that's even more offending...that you would use that as just some ply...like I can't talk about how fucked up his teeth look or his mama, I really want to degrade this man and call him a nigga....

I guess that crosses a line for me...

Someone needs to stop that man before he jumps off a bridge, he's obviously hurting andvery angry!

to have lines on their behavior.




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HA!

people won't follow the lines on their own


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On the other hand, his state of mind and rationale for addressing a black person in that way should NOT be ignored.

the fuck outta here.

I'm just interested in putting a different spin on it.

Did you notice how long Cantball and Mizzafrodytee went back-and-forth? LOOK at some of these conversations, man. Surely you, a learned man, can appreciate honest and rational discourse on a topic that wears everybody out, but STILL drives us all nuts for some reason.

I hear white folks complain about how it effects their lives but I don't see it.

In college, there were pockets of black students here and there but overall, the student population was OVERWHELMINGLY white. I was also an engineer, so it was even rarer to see a black person in the engineering building, let alone my electrical engineering classes. There'd be maybe 4 black people in a class of nearly 100.

At work, there are still days when I'll only occasionally see another black person. My workplace is actually pretty diverse but my first couple years after graduation (after 2001), I was the only black non-administrative person on my floor in my building. Again, there are pockets of black folks, but like I mentioned, they're often in some administrative capacity.

I sat in a law school class with a white friend once. He once told me, despite my undergrad GPA, with a great SAT score and AA, I could probably get into George Washington with him. I've know there are many better black students than myself, yet when I went to his Constitutional Law class, there were 5 other black folks in this lecture hall that held well over 100. I think they all approached me as if I was a new student at some point in the class (lol).



Anyway, it really confuses how much of an uproar white folks make about AA. There are generally so few black people to go around to all the colleges and companies that it's HIGHLY unlikely you'll ever be judged solely against a black person. Black people are barely 13% of the US population yet we're nowhere near that in terms of representation in college or in the workforce (outside of menial and administrative postions).

And considering that white women have benefitted even MORE from AA and are closer to parity with white men than any other group, why aren't white folks pointing their fingers at each other over AA?

In both the workforce and in school, you'll often see more white women than black and hispanic men and women combined. Why aren't white men complaining about white women unfairly taking their jobs? Women still don't perform as well as men in the hard sciences and math, yet the white women in my EE classes didn't have that stigma of AA like the brown folks did.

If black folks were over-represented in academia and the workforce, I could understand the outrage. But we're not though some studies have shown white women are over-represented in college. So is the real issue "fairness"? Or is a white person inherently more deserving of certain postions than black people?

think american history x.

if one white person - who is moderately racist - is deprived of something because of aa, then his/her own beliefs about race are reinforced and amplified. courtesy of his her own sense of entitlement. when s/he shares his or her experiences with his or her family and friends, then perception builds that aa is destroying the lives of all white people.

it may not always end in an avalanche, but that snowball rarely melts.

And I'm lucky that I'm generally not around white people who think that they were harmed, or know someone who was harmed, or know OF someone who was harmed, by affirmative action.

But the first thing that needs to be addressed when white people talk about affirmative action is white privilege. White privilege has been an incredibly pervasive unfair racial preference program for centuries. But honestly, most white people don't see that. Most white people really believe that this country, the workplace, and education, all operate as race-blind meritocracies. So there's a big education step that is left out of the program, and until that's addressed, there is going to be misunderstanding.

You can't claim to be running a meritocracy unless the rules for progression are obvious and people are judged transparently and consitently.

I think the military and professional sports are the closest American instutions to a meritocracy because most participants are clearly told what is needed to be successful at every rung (at least in the beginning... later on, subjective matters start to take precedence).

Corporate and academic settings can be all over the board. Some places tell you upfront what you need to do, other places let you figure out on your own. PArticularly in the corporate world, the best person for the job isn't always the highest performer.

Either way, objectivism is an ideal for most Americans, but it's definitely not a practice for many.

And IMO the ones who get angry about it do not see the bigger picture.

I'm still not 100 percent either way on the debate of affirmative action, but I usually find myself arguing in favor of it because the primary argument I hear against it is "my friend Jim didn't get into Michigan even though he had a higher GPA and SATs than this black kid I know who DID get in. And the black kid is just as wealthy as Jim is."

I get tired of that argument. It's self-centered to me. I mean, the argument is CORRECT in my opinion: it is unfair to Jim, and the other student is usually being courted by a handful of OTHER good schools looking to raise their black populations, schools that are using the upper one percent of the black population to excuse the fact that they NEVER recruit and lower and middle class black schools. THAT is the biggest problem right now, and affirmative action will not solve it, and probably will stop any national dialogue about this problem.

And maybe Jim will suffer for it, although usually Jim will be alright anyway. But arguing whether or not it's unfair to Jim that HE didn't get in misses what I think is the most important part of affirmative action: diversity. Diversity in this fucked up country is absolutely necessary IMO, and is an antithesis to racial ignorance. It's not about the individuals...it's about a healthy community. Lily white communities are not healthy.

I don't mean to suggest that black college students are only there to help white people become less ignorant. But if a school is only about self-promotion and not about mutual gain, than I'm disappointed in said school. So I am suggesting that from a larger perspective, this IS the most wide reaching effect I see of affirmative action.

The fact is that we don't personally know the resumes of all those who were rejected and all those who were accepted by colleges. It's far, far more likely that the person who was rejected by a school will simply ASSUME that they were pushed aside in favor of a "less qualified" Black/Latino/whatever candidate. And that's a very very dangerous and wrong assumption. Plenty of qualified candidates are rejected by schools every year and affirmative action has nothing to do with it. I defy your "Jim" to convince me that, absent affirmative action, he WOULD have been accepted. It just doesn't work that way.

There are many other arguments to be made but I just wanted to point this out. The fallacy of thinking we know who got "our" place at the school or "our" job is a trap. One, we don't know *who* it was and, two, who said that was "ours" to have in the first place?

>The fact is that we don't personally know the resumes of all
>those who were rejected and all those who were accepted by
>colleges. It's far, far more likely that the person who was
>rejected by a school will simply ASSUME that they were pushed
>aside in favor of a "less qualified" Black/Latino/whatever
>candidate. And that's a very very dangerous and wrong
>assumption. Plenty of qualified candidates are rejected by
>schools every year and affirmative action has nothing to do
>with it. I defy your "Jim" to convince me that, absent
>affirmative action, he WOULD have been accepted. It just
>doesn't work that way.

I do agree with all of this, and Jim probably couldn't convince you of shit, because you're right...we can never know. But it is true that colleges--particularly elite colleges--make efforts to diversify their student body, and inherent in these efforts is a diversion from academic qualifications, if only to a small degree. My point is that this is okay, that school isn't all about academics and personal academic acheivements regardless. BUT that these efforts at diversity should not just target minorities at elite high schools. Which they tend to do way way too much. In short, complaints are not ENTIRELY unfounded, but they're selfish.

>There are many other arguments to be made but I just wanted to
>point this out. The fallacy of thinking we know who got "our"
>place at the school or "our" job is a trap. One, we don't
>know *who* it was and, two, who said that was "ours" to have
>in the first place?

Yeah, my bad if it seemed like I was disagreeing with what you say here.

is to ask the "Jims" of the world to give up their own racial preference programs before affirmative action is abandoned, you know?

Have you seen the numbers on "legacy" admissions vs. "affirmative action" admissions? Fuckin scary.

And Sister Mary Angela always said she appreciated a hardworking "B" student over a lazy "A" student, you know?

Gets me heated as hell sometimes. Because people WILL argue against legacies. They'll say "well, yes, legacies are wrong too." BUT ONLY IN THE CONTEXT OF AFFIRMATIVE ACTION. And NEVER with as much zeal as when they debate affirmative action.

So giving minorities advantages (debatable in and of itself if "advantage" is the right word) induces anger, but giving completely unwarranted advantages to the most privileged people in America induces nothing more than acknowledgement. Gets on my last nerve.

Seriously, we should ban the fuck out of legacies.

>And considering that white women have benefitted even MORE
>from AA and are closer to parity with white men than any other
>group, why aren't white folks pointing their fingers at each
>other over AA?


This is an EXCELLENT question. I'd never thought of that before.

In that my daughter could potentially benefit from it.

i'm not trying to further the model minority myth
i'll look for the article published by two princeton sociologists

basically, it said that asian students were the ones not getting in when so-called "less qualified" blacks, latinos and native americans with lower test scores were admitted.
_______________________________________________

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i over heard the store manager talking to one of the assistant managers about hiring.

she said that the company sent an email to all store managers about how they are going to be encouraged to hire african americans over ANY OTHER RACE.

and they did.....

but the thing about it was at the time the company sent out that memo our store and the store across town were 90% black.

im not adding in hispanics with the black people either....

in a store with say 550 people working in it, i was one of 15 whites, there was say 20 latinos, one indian cat, and an asian dude.

and there wasnt a DAY that went by that i didnt see 3-4 whites come in and apply and every orientation there wasnt a single white soul in the office....

is that really the affirmative action you guys want tho? ya'll got first dibs at walmart?

the whole idea is bullshit. its almost like its used against you because now schools and corporations can put a percentage on how many black they "have" to hire.

a percentage would be like a quota
and quotas were outlawed by the bakke v. uc regents in the 1970s
_______________________________________________

i ♥ tequila (since 1981)

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http://www.myspace.com/cindylu

I wish the rest of your race was more like you guys.

When I log off, theones Icome across make my blood boil.

thank you guys for reminding me that all whites aren't ignorant or racist.

~!~

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Why do so many of us feel the need to wear our "blackness" on our sleeve?

Black women? Do you wear your "mad black woman" badge on your sleeve? Or do you keep it in your purse for those "necessary" times? Is there ever truly a "necessary" time?

is something that has been placed upon black women unjustly...naturally people are gonna have their guards up when people constanlty come at them defensively...n like i mentioned before my blackness is an integral part of me but it doesnt define me completely...but its a huge part of my existence, therefore there is a need to defend it when necessary
**************************

is something that has been placed upon black women unjustly...naturally people are gonna have their guards up when people constanlty come at them defensively...n like i mentioned before my blackness is an integral part of me but it doesnt define me completely...but its a huge part of my existence, therefore there is a need to defend it when necessary
**************************

perhaps it is placed on us in disproportionate amounts, but can you really say that for all the "level-headed, cool and collected" black women, there aren't just as many who act a fool at the drop of a dime? or who refuse to be "disrespected" by anyone, and in turn have that permanent chip on their shoulder, ready to pounce?

No doubt, me and my life experiences have been shaped by my journey having taken place in the shoes of a black woman, but I am far from the sum total of my blackness. Nor do I see the need to use my blackness as a crutch or reason for most things.

that really is a stigma designated much more for black women...
how often do u hear angry asian woman or angry latino woman u dont...and there are women of every race who are defensive...i feel like when i defend a position ,that is the way i am automatically perceived especially in an academic setting...i am not ready to pounce to call some1 a racist or something at the drop of a hat...but i am very careful in the way i have to frame things for fear of being written off as simply being angry...
i dont use my blackness as a crutch but my reality has been shaped so much by it its a lot more difficult for me to operate in society trying to ignore it



**************************

>that really is a stigma designated much more for black
>women...
>how often do u hear angry asian woman or angry latino woman u
>dont...and there are women of every race who are defensive...

we as black women (very generally speaking) embraced and validated that term for ourselves. It was made commonplace (at least where I grew up) until black women embraced it, whether the reasons for it are valid or absurd. That's been my experience. I will agree with you that media perception of the "mad black woman" far outweigh the other races, but let's not forget that crazy pissed off asian woman we see on TV every now and then.

>i feel like when i defend a position ,that is the way i am
>automatically perceived especially in an academic setting...i
>am not ready to pounce to call some1 a racist or something at
>the drop of a hat...but i am very careful in the way i have to
>frame things for fear of being written off as simply being
>angry...

shouldn't we always be careful to phrase things when having a group discussion? not for fear of offending someone, but because people are far too quick to pop off at the mouth out of impulse and passion on a topic, then can't seem to understand why they have been perceived a certain way. Thinking before you speak (not you personally) may act as a validation of someone's preconceived notion without you even knowing it.

>i dont use my blackness as a crutch but my reality has been
>shaped so much by it its a lot more difficult for me to
>operate in society trying to ignore it
>
I would never advise ANYONE to ignore it. That's a surefire way to halt any potential progress in the area of leveling the playing field. No way my white friends, colleagues, shit, not even my man will ever know what my life "as a black woman" has been/will be like. That comment was more for those that choose to use it as a crutch, on that victimization kick.

that's an interesting subject you bring up. The man(the man being my bf) is always questioning why blk folks think they need to refer to african traditions to define their culture rather than accepting that they (african americans*) have their own culture seperate of africans.

*i consider myself west indian.

The man(the man
>being my bf) is always questioning why blk folks think they
>need to refer to african traditions to define their culture
>rather than accepting that they (african americans*) have
>their own culture seperate of africans.
>

our history (as blacks on this continent) doesnt go back nearly far enough to give us as much in the way of traditions and culture...i know that i often wish i had deeper and more extensive cultural data to draw from and be proud of and i think a lot of other black americans do the same and feel the same need. not saying that we shouldnt or arent, but its certainly harder to be proud of one's legacy in a country as a slave rather than a deeper and stronger historical legacy that takes one back to his roots as someone self-governed and self-determined with his own culture and traditions to refer to, almost completely devoid of western influence. something of our own, dig?

and i don't understand why you would deny it. the bf takes up the point with kwanzaa (btw the originator of kwanzaa was a informant and had bunchy carter killed). while it has good aspects, why does one need to go to africa to create a cultural tradition when there are ones that already exist here. is hip hop not something created here? soul food? etc..you have your uniquely beautiful culture here.

no one is saying researching you ancestry is bad, but blk americans built this country and dominates a huge part of this country's culture. why run away from that? i personally feel for the small % of blks in this country thats an amazing thing.

>Why do so many of us feel the need to wear our "blackness" on
>our sleeve?

I don't. Ya'll do.

my union being, my intimate relationship w/ my lady, a black woman.

Do you differentiate amongst IE (inter-ethnic) relationships or are you generally skeptical of them from the jump?

Specifically tailored to my situation, a white man being with a black woman.

Let's talk about it...your problems/issues/confirmations/acceptance/or elements you think i'm unaware of that I should be aware of due to the fact that my life is at this point in adjoinment with a woman of another race whom a child could very plausibly be born out of....

Let's build...please, no P.C. nonsense...just real talk.

6/5 - 8/7 <spr!ng-forth>

kids in platoons?
they should be watching cartoons
mentality's wielded,
instead of full bloom (c) 3rdWorldWide

Vexedly Blissful: my shades are nice
MahagonyMocha1: lol
MahagonyMocha1: you thought u were freaking don johnson

and usually, it's the Black person in the relationship. Whether it's white men w/Black women or Black men w/white women, I generally assume the Black person in the relationship is in it for the wrong reasons. If we are with someone non-black, I think it's usually an response to, or an effort to avoid, the emotional baggage that we carry around on a daily basis. It ain't just "Cuz we love each other!"

My general experience is that the white person has an idealistic idea of what the relationship will be like, and how people will treat them. This is because white people {generalizing} have spent their lives as the default, the norm. They have little experience with being outside the norm. How they adjust to that idea is just one challenge in the relationship.

You seem bright and experienced enough to have some sense of what you're in for, but I would probably question her motives more than yours.

>and usually, it's the Black person in the relationship.
>Whether it's white men w/Black women or Black men w/white
>women, I generally assume the Black person in the relationship
>is in it for the wrong reasons. If we are with someone
>non-black, I think it's usually an response to, or an effort
>to avoid, the emotional baggage that we carry around on a
>daily basis. It ain't just "Cuz we love each other!"

But can love *never* overpower the racial constructs and barriers? I mean, i know it's hopeless romantic-like to pronounce that love conquers all...but love's power can render one to reconsider/reconstruct previous notions of certainty regarding inter-racial relationships...I know my lady never once thought she'd ever be with a white man..and had problems at first because she felt she was turning her back on black men..but then we realized that in our case, our energies were so conducive to each other that when we weighted that worth up against everything else...it was too strong to deny.




6/5 - 8/7 <spr!ng-forth>

kids in platoons?
they should be watching cartoons
mentality's wielded,
instead of full bloom (c) 3rdWorldWide

Vexedly Blissful: my shades are nice
MahagonyMocha1: lol
MahagonyMocha1: you thought u were freaking don johnson

and I can't say definitively what brought you guys together, or what will keep you together in the future.

But just think about that extra step that you two had to go through when you were considering getting together. How did her baggage, or your lack thereof (again, generalizing) factor into the decision you made to go forward.

And this is probably where you and I would differ: It sounds like you're saying that you two didn't have a choice about being together; that your hearts made the decision for you. I believe there was an affirmative choice made to be with each other DESPITE what society has to say about it. It's the inidividual's (particularly the Black individual's) motivations in making that choice that I'm suspicious of. That's a choice that's avoided in same-race couples...one less decision that people have an oportunity to fuck up.

>and I can't say definitively what brought you guys together,
>or what will keep you together in the future.
>
>But just think about that extra step that you two had to go
>through when you were considering getting together. How did
>her baggage, or your lack thereof (again, generalizing) factor
>into the decision you made to go forward.

when you say baggage...what exactly are you referring to in this instance?

>And this is probably where you and I would differ: It sounds
>like you're saying that you two didn't have a choice about
>being together; that your hearts made the decision for you. I
>believe there was an affirmative choice made to be with each
>other DESPITE what society has to say about it.

Actually i don't disagree w/ you on this at all. We certainly made a conscious effort to take that extra step and be together. Truth is, we've known each other for years, and for years we weren't willing to do that (well i was, but she wasn't) because of the race barrier. It took years, extensive learning of each other, and true friendship to catapault us into this love thing....our hearts didn't just throw us together, we made conscious decisions to bring it here..and they were certainly difficult decisions.

It's the
>inidividual's (particularly the Black individual's)
>motivations in making that choice that I'm suspicious of.
>That's a choice that's avoided in same-race couples...one less
>decision that people have an oportunity to fuck up.

true, it is just one more potential obstacle to deal with...and it does make things more difficult, no doubt. But how difficult is up to the two people engaged in the relationship.


6/5 - 8/7 <spr!ng-forth>

kids in platoons?
they should be watching cartoons
mentality's wielded,
instead of full bloom (c) 3rdWorldWide

Vexedly Blissful: my shades are nice
MahagonyMocha1: lol
MahagonyMocha1: you thought u were freaking don johnson

> how difficult is up to the two people engaged in the relationship.

And regarding the baggage thing, I just believe that Black folks are bringing more emotional scars to their relationships than their white counterparts, based on their uniqe experience in this country. Again, this is a gross generalization - some white folks I know are working through some serious shit. It's just my general perspective.

did you have preconceived notions entering into it? which ones, if any were confirmed, or suprisingly different?

>did you have preconceived notions entering into it? which
>ones, if any were confirmed, or suprisingly different?

many of the preconceived notions and introductory issues were out of the way, since I had been...de-sensitized in many ways to it...but each relationship takes on its unique, distinctive challenges, especially one in which a white man dates a black woman...

suprisingly...i've found the race barrier to be the least of our issues...moreso, is the continental distance that seperates us (she's in africa, i'm here in the US)...we are on a whole 'nother level of trust and committment, and we talk about race from a much more seasoned standpoint...

w/ her experiences in Africa and evolutionary mindset/perspective being an African American woman discovering herself in Africa...that's been exploratory to say the least...and I did have questions about whether or not she would go to Africa (for peace corps) and find that she really needed an African man in her world to share her deepest intimacies with...and you know what, I could never fault her for that and I've even told her that if that were the case, i wouldn't despise her and hold grudges...it would just mean that my theory of love being the most powerful element to human connection/intimacy would have to be redefined and renamed...throughout her time there thus far (50 days)..we have only gotten closer and our bond continues to grow and mature...i think the tell-all will be when I visit her there, completely out of my element...how will our relationship feel/look at that point, feel me?

the learning process never ends.


6/5 - 8/7 <spr!ng-forth>

kids in platoons?
they should be watching cartoons
mentality's wielded,
instead of full bloom (c) 3rdWorldWide

Vexedly Blissful: my shades are nice
MahagonyMocha1: lol
MahagonyMocha1: you thought u were freaking don johnson

did her family accept you?

What about your family?

Has this relationship put a strain on some of her black friendships, or some of your white ones?

Not trying get a rise out of you, just been here before. I'm curious to see what others go through.

>did her family accept you?

her dad loved me from the jump...her brother and sister like me...it took some warming to get her mom to appreciate me..but she does now. Her mother thought I would be out after she left for Africa, but through time she's understood i'm here to say and now invites me over for dinner and whatnot. I was suprised at how welcoming they were, all things considered.

>What about your family?

my family has always been supportive of my decisions, including this one. However, I know deep down in my other's heart she wants me to be with an Italian, but she's very old-fashioned in that regard. However, that has never reflected in her attitude towards Devin (my lady) or how she treats her...my mother really thinks the world of Devin, and that's important to me.

>Has this relationship put a strain on some of her black
>friendships, or some of your white ones?

I knew Devin in college, and thus knew her best friends (3 other black women)..they all told her from day one she should be with me..so lucked out there as well.

I can't say that my experiences are the norm, cause they're not...we've been blessed in many regards.


6/5 - 8/7 <spr!ng-forth>

kids in platoons?
they should be watching cartoons
mentality's wielded,
instead of full bloom (c) 3rdWorldWide

Vexedly Blissful: my shades are nice
MahagonyMocha1: lol
MahagonyMocha1: you thought u were freaking don johnson

.

I also understand that, aside from all the psychological and historical factors it also has community/political ramifications.

When it all comes down to it, I don't beliebve I am rigid. I have met people who I have respected in interracial relationships and I don't believe it was out of idolizing a different race or malcontent towards their own. But going to a predominantly white university where there are more sistas than brothas and all the brothas are with white chicks then the problem can't be ignored. or with cats talking about going to certain places where they can intentionally live off white women... I think I am justified in my feelings.


*****
Gina is out of control
I'm out of control
the whole--damn--party
--is--out--of control!
(c) White Bob
*****

>I also understand that, aside from all the psychological and
>historical factors it also has community/political
>ramifications.

please share some of these understandings.

>When it all comes down to it, I don't beliebve I am rigid. I
>have met people who I have respected in interracial
>relationships and I don't believe it was out of idolizing a
>different race or malcontent towards their own. But going to a
>predominantly white university where there are more sistas
>than brothas and all the brothas are with white chicks then
>the problem can't be ignored. or with cats talking about going
>to certain places where they can intentionally live off white
>women... I think I am justified in my feelings.

what are your thoughts on a white man being with a black woman? Ever known such a couple? Would be somewhat uncomfortable seeing me walk in a room with my lady on my arm? What would your first-instincts tell you about us?


6/5 - 8/7 <spr!ng-forth>

kids in platoons?
they should be watching cartoons
mentality's wielded,
instead of full bloom (c) 3rdWorldWide

Vexedly Blissful: my shades are nice
MahagonyMocha1: lol
MahagonyMocha1: you thought u were freaking don johnson

>I also understand that, aside from all the psychological and
>historical factors it also has community/political
>ramifications.

>please share some of these understandings.

This has been done to death but I'll touch on the politics.
politics = the way people/groups go about meeting their interest.

I see everything as having political implications. When I think about marriage, family, community etc I think of all those institutions being necessary in combating denigration and affirming Blackness. Teaching kids to be proud of being black, to being able to deal with the injustices of being black, me having a white women on my arm complicates things a whole lot more, and I know alot of times things would be alot more uncomfortable for her. Even if it was desirable I don't know if it be worth it. Mind you I don't believe in all the romantic nonsense about love conquering all. I believe to love is natural and marriage is just a choice of extending that love. I don't believe in color blind choices. I am not saying anything about someone else politically based on who they choose to date/marry but that is where i stand.

>When it all comes down to it, I don't beliebve I am rigid. I
>have met people who I have respected in interracial
>relationships and I don't believe it was out of idolizing a
>different race or malcontent towards their own. But going to a
>predominantly white university where there are more sistas
>than brothas and all the brothas are with white chicks then
>the problem can't be ignored. or with cats talking about going
>to certain places where they can intentionally live off white
>women... I think I am justified in my feelings.

>what are your thoughts on a white man being with a black woman?
> Ever known such a couple? Would be somewhat uncomfortable seeing
>me walk in a room with my lady on my arm? What would your first-
>instincts tell you about us?

I've known a few. I was bothered by my college roomate because all he went after were black women, but then again he also tried to pledge a black frat, even tried to use his black roomate to help him get acceptance many times. I've had lady friends who dated white guys and I sympathized sometimes because they had been treated like shit by brothas and all of a sudden they had this cool white cat treating them nice. I'd still prefer if they had met a good brotha though. if you walked in a room with a sista I wouldn't be uncomfortable nor hostile, assumptions I might make would come from observing you in your whiteness and her in her blackness. I understand it's not always as simple as I'd like to see it, but I dont ever see myself telling my kids "date whoever, we are all people" it would be more like "yes we are human, but look at all the women in your family" Then I'd wink at him, nothing else said. But he will be raised to be proud no matter what he chooses.

*****
Gina is out of control
I'm out of control
the whole--damn--party
--is--out--of control!
(c) White Bob
*****

I'm not against a person's choice for being in a inter-racial relationship per se, I just can't stand the idiotic, pathetic reasons they 90% of them give for being in said relationships...

Interestlingly enough, you viewpoint/aprroach to relationships closely resembles mine own in many ways. IMO your approach is healthy.

I have a question for you though, If your child is a 'boychild', how will you go about rasing a 'black man', Have you giving any thought to this at all???




My Mantra when dealing with White folks:

When you are playing with a dog, do not ever forget to keep a stick within reach

Akan Proverb

>I'm not against a person's choice for being in a inter-racial
>relationship per se, I just can't stand the idiotic, pathetic
>reasons they 90% of them give for being in said
>relationships...

understandable...equally repulsed, I can understand why one would have trouble accepting inter-racial relationships when there are so many poor examples of them out in the flesh.

>Interestlingly enough, you viewpoint/aprroach to relationships
>closely resembles mine own in many ways. IMO your approach is
>healthy.

respect. I've also noticed many-a-cosign w/ you on issues dealing w/ relationships and man/woman relations.

>I have a question for you though, If your child is a
>'boychild',

you mean a half-god/half-caveman? lol (sorry, couldn't resist)

how will you go about rasing a 'black man', Have
>you giving any thought to this at all???

very important question. I have given thought to it. I am of course, not a black man, so I could/would never try to assume the position of one when dealing with my child. However, I will say that I first think of it as important to raise my child on how to be a man, first. As for being a black man, fortunately in my situation, there are many strong black male figures on my lady's side of the family who could provide assistance in that area...uncles, grandfathers, her brother, etc... Also, i've further contemplated on the issue and would indeed select one of my best friends, ras sealy, to be my son's godfather, to further provide fortification and a strong black male model in his life...

Having said all of this, I think the most important issue when raising my prospective son would be helping him understand how to be a man and teach him the ways of the world in relation to who he is, as energy and creation birthed from his mother and I, and the most High. Spirituality and God will be a fundamental element to his upbringing. He will be of me and his mother, so he would need to understand me, as his father, as well as his mother, as the primary means of self-exploration and definition followed by who he is, seperate of his mother and father, as his own human being, distinct and unique. After that is established, he would then to need understand his history as a descendant of Africa, some of which I can't teach him directly when it comes down to the core-science, but nonetheless I can be a supportive figure who has understanding that he will need strong black male models in his life.




6/5 - 8/7 <spr!ng-forth>

kids in platoons?
they should be watching cartoons
mentality's wielded,
instead of full bloom (c) 3rdWorldWide

Vexedly Blissful: my shades are nice
MahagonyMocha1: lol
MahagonyMocha1: you thought u were freaking don johnson

that's my JA roots...

I like your response.

It's obvious you have given thought to this... you have a warm soul, your child will be proud to have you as father...

Peace


My Mantra when dealing with White folks:

When you are playing with a dog, do not ever forget to keep a stick within reach

Akan Proverb

and i've stated my reasons time and time and time enough again not to have to say them here... but it'd be cool to dialogue about this very subject with you.

just not here.

i resent white dudes in interracial relationships a little.

why? because white dudes get to be individuals. the actions of
one crazy white guy do not get spread across all whtie dudes
by white women. i have never in my life heard a white woman
say 'WHITE GUYS AIN'T SHIT' or 'WHITE GUYS ARE DOGS.' i've
heard them say 'GUYS suck' or 'GUYS ARE DOGS', but i've never
heard them specifically point to their own men and indict them,
to the exclusion of everybody else.

on the flip, that happens to black dudes all the time. not only
by black women, but by larger america. a black chick can't get a
date - BLACK MEN AIN'T SHIT and THERE'S A SHORTAGE OF THE GOOD ONES.
a black dude robs somebody - BLACK DUDES IS VIOLENT CRIMINALS.
suge knight wilds out at the source awards - BLACK DUDES DON'T
KNOW HOW TO ACT.

that type of stuff - white cats don't have to live with. they get
the benefit of the doubt in every encounter, generally. so eeven
though they can be just as foul, misogonystic and lewd as
black dudes supposedly get, nobody watches KID ROCK and projects
that onto random white dudes on the street. whereas, 50 cent
will have black women and cops grinding on me and mine for days.

back in the day, my experience - when i was dating or paid attention to that stuff - was that there was a sense that black women were WAITING for a black dudes to fuck up. and when he does, there's the inevitable 'see, i KNEW he wasn't shit.' i can't quantify how much, but i know it was there, and i doubt highly that white cats were faced
with the same WARY DREAD.

and i haven't even talked about the MONSTER'S BALL dynamic. that's even worse.

This is the basis of my theory that white men have it easier.

They are damn near invisble.

For example, white dude gives a presentation. Not wearing a tie and basically the same clothes as me. He has long hair so he doesnt fit the overly professional category. We both do ok, but on his evaluation sheets it doesnt say anything about his hair.

Me on the other hand, large black man with an afro and will wear the pic with the fist proudly gets "he needs to take the pic out of his hair".

Now, I know some will say, you shouldnt even have a pic in your hair during a presentation. But what the hell does that have to do with the presentation. On top of that, I sat there for a sec and thought about who would right that. I bet it was that old black lady in the back.

Black men are the one thing that is always accounted for. What we do individually spans the group. Everything we do is reported and becomes a topic on some news show as a crisis. But frat dudes rumble on the side of the street on a regular basis and its damn near expected and celebrated (see Real World any of them).

or marchmadness?

shit, college parkk be on FIRE!!!

it never reflects on 'WHITE DUDES AT LARGE.'

yet, terry mcmillians down low husband will
have ramifications all over the black community.

and many of the mugs who will be leading
the negative charge will be black women.

on the flip - dude, take that pick out'cho
hair. you know that ain't riiiigghhhhttt! © big

hah
----------------------------------
The epitome of man’s sinfulness is trying to be like God, without God (Isaiah 14:14)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Im selling 'Don't forget your Lunch at home' T-shirts" $8 each, 3 for $25 (c) BigReg

I need a bit more, cuz he could be all cut up and look like some shut up (c)Gravity508

I'll be a shallow ass muthafucka ... li

world.
or thinking now that they're wit a black person they have free reign to say and do whatever wit regards to black people.
but that's not even limited to white people in relationships wit black people. its white people with black friends too.

i'm bout to continue on a tangent, deal...

http://bkbrickhouse.blogspot.com
last updated 062905 the "mama i love you" (boyz ii men) entry

<-- tahir the lil' afro man by afrikankween

some of them dance lightly around race, at least around me.

But the first time I met my brother in law, after a lovely dinner he yelled something at a passing car about blaring 'nigger music' in the street.

Since then he's blamed everything from the bad economy to the welfare state on 'the niggers' in front of me.

I had some words with my lady on the way home, after that first time. She wouldn't defend him, but tried to explain to me where he was coming from. She challenged me - a white suburbanite who grew up in an almost all white school district and went to an almost all white college - to judge him. Which I did, but she made me think more about it... anyway.
Constant push and pull in S. Philadelphia - neighborhoods going all one way or the other, or worse (in their perspective), Asian, drug problems, racial tension, random violence.
According to them, S. Phila. blacks call them greezballs or crackas, so they view using 'nigger' as their equivalent. Or 'mooleys' or 'shines' (which I'd never heard before). For the record, I've never heard anyone refer to them as such - but we've never gone into a mixed or black area of S. Phila. with them, so I can't really say.

Anyway. One thing that's set indelibly in my wife's brain is how her oldest brother, when he was about 10 in 1965, was riding his bike down the street when a black kid jumped out from behind a mailbox and whacked him over the head with a bat. "Because he was white." Who knows at this point - but the dude has been seriously fucked up ever since - now he's 50 and can barely live on his own.

Not that this merits a lifelong attitude toward your neighbors. But it's not a positive experience.

Fast forward to 2003. One of the first posts on here I ever read was some kind of 'what kind of crazy shit have you seen?'
The post that got the most LOLs was one in which the poster detailed a black gentleman swinging a bat as he walked down the street, approaching a seemingly random white guy, and nailing him on the head before walking away nonchalantly. For whatever reason posters here thought this was hilarious.

As much as my brother in law bothers the shit out of me, that post bothered me as much if not more.

This sounds a lot like the standard 'one black person fucked with me at some point in my past so they're all evil' argument which, IMO is stupid.

If we were to go by that argument, just about every black person has had significantly more reason to hate all white people than the other way around. The difference is that noone really minds lumping all black people together and making all responsible for one's actions. Attemt to do the same to white people and they start protesting their individuality.

which was, admittedly, convoluted.

Yes, I agree that it is stupid. No contest there. I've got no tolerance for it whatever the root.

My point in general though was that violence is tragic. Here's a dude getting whacked in the head, in a coma for a few weeks, fucked for life.
Family's culturally inherent racism deepens as a result, which is also tragic.

Doesn't matter, what color the attacker or the victim is, it's a tragedy. It's not in any respect whatsoever funny.

Yet a poster recounting an almost identical, equally real, incident incites general merriness in GD.

Why?

I'll leave that to you, but I think you can understand why 4 years later that still bothers me.

see, i had this question i wanted to ask (see below), but i get the sense that most of this discussion is gonna be muted because of the overwhelming volume of replies. how many of us are really gonna read the whole thread? and how many are gonna take the time to respond in a meaningful way? i suspect that this will yield a lot of reinforcement, but not too much in the way of progress. i could be wrong. actually, i hope i am.

anyway, here's the question i originally wanted to ask.

SUBJECT: Blackfolks: is "Nationtime" over?

i know racism hasn't really gone anywhere, but in the last 40 years, institutionalized racism seems to have reconfigured and concealed itself. in an almost intentional way so as to divide and conquer (i.e. open the doors to just enough people so that the group's strength will be diminished.)

so...how many of y'all really feel like there's a tangible enemy still binding people of color in a collaborative struggle? is "the Nation" a relic of the past? if not, have its goals changed? most importantly, what victories can the Nation claim?

>SUBJECT: Blackfolks: is "Nationtime" over?
>
>i know racism hasn't really gone anywhere, but in the last 40
>years, institutionalized racism seems to have reconfigured and
>concealed itself. in an almost intentional way so as to divide
>and conquer (i.e. open the doors to just enough people so that
>the group's strength will be diminished.)
>
>so...how many of y'all really feel like there's a tangible
>enemy still binding people of color in a collaborative
>struggle? is "the Nation" a relic of the past? if not, have
>its goals changed? most importantly, what victories can the
>Nation claim?

As its original incarnation, it's over. Just as the "enemy" has changes approaches and tactics, so has the "nation". The shift of racism from overt to covert has made the "tangible enemy" argument irrelevant. The work is far from done, but until the approach is changed, black people as a "nation" will continue to be outsmarted and out-legislated by stronger decision making powers who have made that systematic disenfranchisement of a people look so harmless, with such finesse.

keep it goin'

I'm a 16th West Indian, but the rest is irish and scottish ancestry right...I'm genuinely as pakeha as you can get though, with my family tree 5 generations on all sides.

Here's my question, just in case anyone wants to give me a though-out answer...can I (or should I) claim any "blackness"?

See I certainly don't look black, I tan well and that's about it, but I've always an affinity with african-americans (and I mean americans in a broader sense than just the US), and the broader culture, even if I can't explain it to myself, and certainly would never try to explain it to any I've met.

Sorry if I've put this in slightly messy terms, but if anyone wants to answer, that'd be cool...if I've just plain embarrassed myself, it's easy enough to vanish from the internet eh.

The question is predominantly hypothetical, so if I can't, then why not?

I'm pakeha, and happy being one eh.

shit, i'm 1/16 (or 1/8th?) Irish and you won't see me applying for a permit to march in the St. Patrick's Day Parade next yr. cuz i'm not Irish.

...if you beleived the folk around here that get amped up every St Patricks, Ireland would've had to have exported about 7 billion people over the last century or so eh.

Point taken though, just a question I always wanted to ask.

(Yeah, I'm Black, but I want other folks opinions)


Do any of you accept the idea that for the case of Middle Class Blacks (Upper-middle class, professional Blacks in particular) - there is going to be significantly more Whites & Asians in their dating pool than Black Women, so at the of the day, tossing out all negative reasons that people interracially date, there will be a high prevalence of interracial dating within that group of Blacks?

Do any of you agree with the idea that Upper-middle class Blacks aren't exactly in demand as dating partners (in practice, not by what people say they want) by the rest of the Black Community, as opposed to say Whites who have less problems dating accross class lines (IMO)?

Additionally, do any of you "buy" the idea that the reason for some of the kum-ba-ya arguments that people use to defend their IR relationships, aren't due to the relationships being farcial necessarily, but are due to being forced to defend dating someone not their race as if the relationship is automatically invalid.

E.g. Attack anyone's relationship for surface reasons, rather than the substantive nature of their interactions:

-Wrong side of the tracks
-Different religion
-Body Type
-Educational Level
-General looks

As opposed to the substantive nature of their interactions and you can potentially get some hokey responses.

Now people use these responses as the proof, the "A-ha" of a farcial relationship, but isn't that (perhaps) not the case, but rather the result of a farcial attack in the first place?

Making it quickly personal, I'm newly single and after my last experience I know that just dating a fellow Middle Class person isn't enough, I need someone from a similar upbringing and whose life is on a similar trajectory socioeconomically and professionally.

So on a statistical basis, based on who I encounter professionally and personally (the latter driven by the former) Whites, Asians and East Indians are potentially ethnic groups I could end up with, Black women are virtually non-existent.

So for people who will have Beef with me (or someone like me) not ending up with a Black Woman, is it because you

-Aren't aware of the things I laid out?
-Don't believe them?
-Don't care and feel the person should only date Black women and should wait?





Peace,













M2

gimme a P.O. box or address.

i'm talking about a "no-conversation-after-this" type of response too.

First off, I'm not asking anyone to agree with my decisions/validate them/whatever, I'm merely seeking a more articulate response than is usually given when this topic is discussed.

Nor is this an "Existence" debate, it's merely the posing of a question.

Dig?

Back to the question............

There are more upper-middle class white and asian women, than Black ones, no disputing that.

Relationships tend to work best between people of similar socioeconomic classes, can't really dispute that fact either.

So with the above in mind, the question offered is, isn't it logical that a upper-middle class Black Man will find more compatible non-Black women, than Black women as potential mates?

If you don't think that's logical, just explain why.

Now if you do think it's logical, but feel the Black man should hold out for a Black Woman, than explain the value judgment as far as compataible mate when they come along vs. Black women only.

Again, this isn't about "proving things to me" or altering my life, as I already know what works to me, anything you could attempt to prove isn't relevant vs. my previous experiences - I just want to hear an articulate opinion on the issue.












Peace,














M2

and if that's what's happening, then "if" what you're saying is true for you about not having more than the occasional run in with black women in your class...then by all means, GO FOR IT! couple with whoever you like...because the odds are that you'll find compatibility among those you're around simply being non-black women"

but you added something else in there...a personal preference. seeing yourself aligned with someone of common attributes. and THAT is where i see a problem. not that you have that in mind... but that since you DO, you don't see one aspect of the situation: that you have a CHOICE and that this choice is based on something OTHER than statistics.

like the saying goes: "love may be where you find it, but CULTURE depends on where you look."

to NOT see where socialization plays a part in WHO you choose and the VALUES that guide that choice is just ignorant. (not that this is what you're doing) but to me, it sounds like you're taking statistics and your limited experience (as we all have limited experience), into account when making a choice that should be built upon more intrinsic values, like "what you want" and "how you're gonna get it". like when you posted about blacks getting home loans... one COULD look at the probability of racist influences and just decide "oh well, it's a fucked up system and the likelihood of me as a black man getting this loan is low and i SEE the double standard happening to black people, so lemme not try..."

...or you could navigate THROUGH the reality in front of you and obtain what you WANT.

that same class coupling works easier or is more stable does NOTHING to contest the fact that mismatched-class relationships and marroages CAN and DO work. opting to stick within certain parameters simply for EASE or LACK of EFFORT is just pathetic. what kinda person DEFINES what they want and then gets tired of it's pursuit when the road to reaching the goal seems hard? how bout limiting yourself to those women WITH those "common personal attributes" and jsut look within THAT set?

Preferences deal with what I'm attracted to, traits I like and what I know works.

I like ambitious, driven, educated, successful women - that woman is more likely to be a professional than a Janitor.

But going outside of your preference can yield surprising results and I've done it before.


In general, I'll date anyone, I just know which relationships are more likely to succeed and in the end, if I were to bet, I know the type of woman I would bet on ending up with.


In the end though - the question is do you think prevalences, success factors, etc - will inevitably determine (more often than not) who the person wins up with?




Peace,









M2

it's not the attributes you referenced to CLASS that matters most with the upper middle (as that's the class i've been around most) in choosing a mate... but personal values oriented attributes that do.

it's generally only people that FOCUS on class distictions that even do so. (make choices based on these parameters i mean)

which do YOU value more?

Or better yet, let's build a life together, but be on the same page as far as perceptions and goals.

Simple as that.

I think people are getting too wrapped up in the class thing, perhaps I should've framed it differently in order to make it easier to digest.

Based on past experiences, I can tell you what type of woman works out best for me.

The only real issue I have in relationships is not wanting kids (why the last three ended).

BUT - when I can come home and she understands the career life (important for someone as driven as I) that's cool.

What's not cool is when I realize that we get along well, share many things in common, but there is a huge chunk of my life she completely doesn't relate too.

Than I go to work and chat with another woman who has the same traits + understands the rest of my life too and I wonder.

What am I doing with..........?

I don't even like this other woman, we're just speaking the same language, all the time.

So then I think back to the ex-ex-girlfriend, same stuff, always the same language.

Relationships are hard enough - and I'm picky, so anyone I like, I'll date, the girl I want to ask out at the moment, works behind the counter in a Gym, I'm not excluding anyone.

I just know what typically fits best, what is what the post is about, does anyone else think socioeconomic commonalities can trump racial ones.




Peace,









M2

i don't have a whole bunch of Black men in my potential dating pool either but if dating Black men were important to me (for whatever reasons) i'd go out of my way to make it happen.

There are limits to what you can make happen and few people will even accept that there can be a stronger prevalance for another group - I was really interested in seeing how many people could even accept the stronger prevalence.





Peace,








M2

the prevalence argument. Uta and i actually agree...even if a Black man were in a situation where there were precious few Black women available to him but mating w/a Black woman were of utmost importance to him he'd find a way to make it happen. it really does come down to what a person is willing to do to have what is most important to them.

as much as it gets people's draws in a knot, interracial dating has no macro-level effect on anything.

The point is to ask the question and get a heartfelt answer - as opposed to the usual "sell-out" responses.



*shrugs*




Peace,






M2

why should we bother answering your question
isnt that the point of this post?

By "not caring" I mean that I'm not asking Okayplayer to rubber-stamp or approve my actions, I don't need and I'm perfectly happy with the choices I make, the responses of other posters won't change that.


I'm merely asking your opinions, or better yet, asking you to articulate why you feel the way you do, so I can better understand those with a contrary opinion or view of my choices. As those with contrary views typically engage more in argumentum ad hominem than in articulating communicating their views.

That's all.




Peace,









M2

um you can date whomever the hell you want
but if you want to say that middle class folks will most likely have to date white and asians because more of them are in the middle class than blks, then i call that superficial and idiotic.

thats like saying middle class people will only want to date other middle class people. and if thats the case, then the snobs can stay to themselves. saying that a middle class asian woman is more of a catch than a lower class blk person is an insult to the both races.

a. you are saying a lower class blk woman doesnt have the qualities to date you a middle class blk man due to her socioeconomic status (which is no fault of her own)

b. you are only interested in dating an asian/white woman because of her economic status

thats really insulting. poor people aren't poor because they want to be poor, and in no way are they any less worthy of dating a middle/high class person.

i mean are you really looking for someone to love, or a way to climb the economic ladder?

Although, I understand how you can view it that way.

So let me frame this better:

Economically, I don't think either person in a relationship should derive an economic benefit from the other aside from sharing expenses when co-habitating.

E.g. I believe both parties should work, I don't believe in community property and I think both people should contribute $ towards household expense based on their porportionate share of the couple's total income.

If she comes into a million dollars, than she's a millionaire, not me and I anticipate no chage in my financial status, nor would I feel comfortable with her giving me any of the money or spending a lot of it on me. It's her loot, not mine.

I will say (however) that I am leery of dating someone who makes significantly less than I do, as I don't want to end up supporting them, particularly since I was just in that situation. I wasn't giving her money, but I still carried 80% of our bills, if something happened to me financially - we were out on the street. It made me feel uncomfortable to be honest, as in my relationship prior to that one, she made enough (More than me actually) where as long as one of was working, the household was safe and secure financially.

This isn't a snob argument...... I don't think that poor people are of less value than middle class people, the argument is about compatibility due to similar backgrounds and lifestyles, not valuing people based on income.

Typically, relationships work out the best between people of similar socioeconomic backgrounds and relationships between people of significantly different social classes often don't work and/or require extra work as the differences can cause friction.

It's a well documented phenomenon actually and it's one I can attest to in my own life.

I'm asking what people think of my thesis - isn't it logical that Middle Class Blacks will date a significant # of Non-Blacks, due to the pool of Non-Blacks with similar backgrounds being larger?

OR do you believe that race trumps social class, so there will be more difficulties with the non-Blacks relationship wise, than there would be if the Black person dated a Black person of a different socioeconomic background.

It's not about valuing people or looking for an economic leg up, it's about recognizing the likelihood for compatability.

I'm merely saying that when looking at Compatibility along socieconomic lines, there are just fewer Black women in the dating pool, that's all.



Peace,










M2

i dont think its a race over class. i think its class dividing blk folks all together. so if someone middle class feels that they can only date someone else middle class, that's them limiting their prospects.

You're basically saying that amongst Black people there is no such thing as Class, E.g. one doesn't have to worry about any issues dating people of different socioeconomic classes.

Am I correct?

Personally, I think Americans (Blacks especially) try to ignore that Class exists.

Look - I'm not opposed to dating someone poor - I just don't think the chances for success are as high. Just to start off, there is potential resentment on my side if we ever cohabitate as I'll feel as if I'm supporting someone.

Regardless, my thesis is indeed "whacky" as you put it, if class distinctions don't exist for Blacks and/or there is zero to very little class friction within the Black community.

At heart, I think that's the essence of our disagreement, whether class distinctions exist for Blacks and if they make a difference with respect to interpersonal relationships.



Peace,










M2

>
>You're basically saying that amongst Black people there is no
>such thing as Class, E.g. one doesn't have to worry about any
>issues dating people of different socioeconomic classes.

did you read anything i just wrote?
>
>Am I correct?
>
>Personally, I think Americans (Blacks especially) try to
>ignore that Class exists.
>
>Look - I'm not opposed to dating someone poor - I just don't
>think the chances for success are as high. Just to start off,
>there is potential resentment on my side if we ever cohabitate
>as I'll feel as if I'm supporting someone.

they wont be high because you are going in with the attitude. i'm inclined to say to get off you might high horse. who said you have to support them? its that type of arrogance that divides blk folks. youre attitude is part of the problem.
>
>Regardless, my thesis is indeed "whacky" as you put it, if
>class distinctions don't exist for Blacks and/or there is zero
>to very little class friction within the Black community.
>
>At heart, I think that's the essence of our disagreement,
>whether class distinctions exist for Blacks and if they make a
>difference with respect to interpersonal relationships.
>
you didnt read anything i wrote at all. i hate to call names, but i think you are a snob. i truly believe you think you are better than the lower class, and you a shining example of why there is a class divide between blk folks. that fact that you believe you will have to financially support someone that is not middle class is an insult to anyone that has not has the same privilages as you.

and as a person that grew up in the "middle class" and is engaged to someone who grew up most of their life on welfare, i'd like to say youre wrong. i don't carry him. we support each other. relationships aren't about money. if you focus on that none of your relationships will ever work.

You're taking personal offense to things, particularly because of your own relationship and are not even thinking about the issue.

Recognizing differences does not make one a snob or mean that the person is looking down on others.

When I say support, I mean that I would earn the majority of the money and our lifestyle would primarily be defined by my income, not hers - that's just a mathematical fact.

Recognizing it isn't an insult.

When my ex and I looked at houses to buy, she said from jump "your income is making this decision" as I made over 80% of our total income. She wasn't offending herself.

With the girl before that, HER income made the decision as she made more than twice as much as me. I wasn't insulted, it's just simple math.

Relationships have some pragmatic aspects to them, wanting things to be more "fair" or looking for someone who is more likely to look at the world the same way doesn't doom one to failure, it's just common sense.

I'm not the problem, the problem comes from people who refuse to recognize that being of a different class has an impact on one's worldview and expectations.



Peace,











M2

im secure in my relationship and i dont care who you date
but you still are coming off as a snob
there is nothing else i can say that will make you understand that
but hey i'm not dating you so i dont really care

The question relates to more commonalities between people of a similar socioeconomic level and a larger professional female dating pool comprised of non-blacks than Blacks.

People are fixating on various aspects of my post rather than the core question, it's actually rather interesting.







Peace,








M2

IF anything, it's an explanation for why *black women* should date interracially. Professional black women *outnumber* professional black men on a macro level - although I understand that in your day-to-day experience, you are quite right in saying that you're more likely to encounter/deal with non-black professional women. That said -- if you live in an urban center, and you *tried* (ie, joined black professional orgs), you would find, statistically, that black professional men are outnumbered by their black female counterparts.

The idea that 'white/asian women out number black women in the professional scene' is invalid, because whites outnumber blacks PERIOD -- if you choose to roll in white and asian circles, that's on you -- but you chose to go out of your way to engage black networks (church, community, professional orgs), you'd have no problem whatsoever, numbers wise.

>
>Although, I understand how you can view it that way.
>
>So let me frame this better:
>
>Economically, I don't think either person in a relationship
>should derive an economic benefit from the other aside from
>sharing expenses when co-habitating.
>
>E.g. I believe both parties should work, I don't believe in
>community property and I think both people should contribute $
>towards household expense based on their porportionate share
>of the couple's total income.
>
>If she comes into a million dollars, than she's a millionaire,
>not me and I anticipate no chage in my financial status, nor
>would I feel comfortable with her giving me any of the money
>or spending a lot of it on me. It's her loot, not mine.
>
>I will say (however) that I am leery of dating someone who
>makes significantly less than I do, as I don't want to end up
>supporting them, particularly since I was just in that
>situation. I wasn't giving her money, but I still carried 80%
>of our bills, if something happened to me financially - we
>were out on the street. It made me feel uncomfortable to be
>honest, as in my relationship prior to that one, she made
>enough (More than me actually) where as long as one of was
>working, the household was safe and secure financially.
>
>This isn't a snob argument...... I don't think that poor
>people are of less value than middle class people, the
>argument is about compatibility due to similar backgrounds and
>lifestyles, not valuing people based on income.
>
>Typically, relationships work out the best between people of
>similar socioeconomic backgrounds and relationships between
>people of significantly different social classes often don't
>work and/or require extra work as the differences can cause
>friction.
>
>It's a well documented phenomenon actually and it's one I can
>attest to in my own life.
>
>I'm asking what people think of my thesis - isn't it logical
>that Middle Class Blacks will date a significant # of
>Non-Blacks, due to the pool of Non-Blacks with similar
>backgrounds being larger?
>
>OR do you believe that race trumps social class, so there will
>be more difficulties with the non-Blacks relationship wise,
>than there would be if the Black person dated a Black person
>of a different socioeconomic background.
>
>It's not about valuing people or looking for an economic leg
>up, it's about recognizing the likelihood for compatability.
>
>I'm merely saying that when looking at Compatibility along
>socieconomic lines, there are just fewer Black women in the
>dating pool, that's all.
>
>
>
>Peace,
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>M2
>

My argument is that there are more White & Asian Professional women than Black Ones, which has nothing to do with your claim that Black Women professionals outnumber Black Male professionals, because even if Black Women do outnumber Blacks males in the Corporate Workplace, I'll still encounter significantly more White & Asian ones.

As for my own experience, I've encountered very few Black Women in Corporate America (Mgt. Consultant for 7 years) that weren't clerical level staff, whilst I've encountered dozens of Black Men.

Any list of the top 50, 100 Blacks in Corporate America, Wall St, Laywers, etc - is going to be predominantly Male.

National Society of Black Engineers is predominantly male, I typically work for Tech Companies and even though I work on the Business side of the ball, the folks I work with are often ex-engineers.

I have participated with professional orgs, mostly Black men in my experience.

I don't attend church, but that's irrelevant as it won't disabuse the fact that I'll still encounter more non-Black professional women.

If Black Professional Women do outnumber Black Professional Men and I'm wrong on that count (I mean business professionals, lawyers and doctors by the way, not teachers and social workers) - show me the data and I'll admitt I'm wrong.

But that still doesn't change the fact that in my experience, Black Women don't outnumber the Asians, let alone the White Women.

I was working until recently at a Dow component corporation, within the business unit that generates 50% of its profits. I can think of nearly two dozen Brothas and those are just the ones I encountered, it's a big department so I'm sure I didn't meet everyone.

I met two Black Women that weren't secretaries.


Peace,








M2

My understanding is that you are on the west coast. My experience is that there are fewer concentrations of Black professional women here (i'm visiting home) not fewer black professional women period, just that they are more spread out.

Edit: if you are in Seattle, i have heard nothing good about the number of black professionals there period, so i can see how your numbers can be so skewed.

That is not a phenomenon that i've experienced in the bay area, and the farther west I go the less true that's become.

Also I would say for you, your typed words make it appears as if it is more important that your relationship runs as a business partnership first and then have everything else come after it.

I don't believe that it's true that two people have to come from similar socioeconomic backgrounds for things to work. It's more important that two people come together with open minds, mutual understanding, and a willingness to work with their partner. There should be some things that they can relate to, but it need not have anything to do with background.

I'm going to try and stay on topic here. The thing about race and relationships as you're saying, i kept getting the impression that you were on the side of finding a black woman. You said "when I realize that we get along well, share many things in common, but there is a huge chunk of my life she completely doesn't relate too,"
I was reminded that when i dated outside of my race there was a portion of my life that they didn't relate to...the black part.

That's important because in this country i am reminded of my blackness daily. I can try to ignore it, but the reminders never go away...be it an odd look when i go certain places or being followed by the police and pulled over or noticing that i'm bein treated differently at a retail establishment. Rarely have I had someone that i was dating who was not black notice the subtle racisms that play out on a day to day.

I could go through it and actually answer things further, but i know that we differ greatly on some basic ideals. In the interest of not complicating things further, especially since i'm doubtful that this will even be read, i'm going to quit now.



You can fight a war for a long time or you can make your nation strong.
You can't do both. ~ (The Art of War)


You can fight a war for a long time or you can make your nation strong.
You can't do both. ~ (The Art of War)

I the majority of my experience is in the Northeast and the pattern wasn't that much different.

But - it's worth nothing that I work in a male dominated field (Tech, Mgt. Consulting) aren't many women around in general. I worked at a really large tech company that is one of the more diverse gender wise and that meant a workforce that was 25% women.

Anyway, I don't think that you and I differ that much when it comes to relationships, as I'm not looking for a business partnership either (although I understand how you could think that - but I'm not looking for any sort of financial synergies) - I'm looking for a partner in general, mutual understanding, compatibility, a relationship where we both understand each other, etc.

I just find that more with people of similar backgrounds, whilst with people of significantly different ones, in our day to day lives, those differing perspectives on life seem to cause friction. Additionally, I've noticed whilst observing the relationships of my friends that those that come from similar backgrounds seem to have it a lot easier.

Obviously, I'm not limiting my dating pool to those of a different background as I'm discussing experiences dating those with similar background and those with differnet ones. However, I just know it's a relationship I may have to work harder at and when it comes to dating, some relationships require more work than others, it's just life I suppose.


I hear you on the racial thing, but when we're at home no one is giving me dirty looks and my main concern is the the two of us being on the same page and being able to build a life together. Plus, same race + different background has been harder for me than same background different race.

I also think that in my case, dating a woman who is non-Black still means that she's still someone who has to deal with discrimination and has some perspective on not being a first class citizen. Particularly if she's in the Business world as you can make an argument that there is more discrimination against White Women than Black Men.

After all, Black men earn more and have more CEO (and C-level execs - although Sr. execs may be equal) representation as well and I've seen more female discrimination in my time than discrimination against myself.

Not to mention the fact that I've been able to Squash things on my own whilst women seem less able to successfully fight without being treated negatively by others.

Just an observation.

At the moment, my preference is a woman of a color and if she's Black, great. But in general, as long as the woman "gets me" (and vice versa) race isn't a major factor in the decisions I make.

I think if I were planning on having children, than marrying a Black woman would be a lot more important to me, so I could avoid the interriacial children issue.

Finally, my point in making this post (and I think I should've been more concise in asking this) is if anyone though similar backgrounds could potentially trump race due to a potential greater number of commonalities.

The responses have been interesting to say the least.


Peace,

















M2

2 sides to every coin.

I agree that if you grow up in a predominately white/rich area that is what you will grow to like. You cant like clams if you only eat burgers (bad saying but it makes sense to me).

If I grew up around west indians, no matter what I am, thats probably what i'll look for.

See Tiger Woods. He cant be a sell out cause he wasnt in places where black women were abundant, so like all people adapt and go with whats around you.

Now if Tiger was from Flatbush, it would be a different story. Cause the other side to the coin are the marriage for reasons other than love.

See OJ Simpson (who hasnt been black since the 70's). He grew up in black with blacks. Married a black woman. With her until he got paid and dropped her and went for the stereotypical white girl. Now situations like this should be frowned upon. To all of a sudden move up in the world and just shed all things black is an affront to us as a people.

IR is not a problem when done properly.

lawd!

With respect to people seeking things that are familiar to their background (current or past) and upbringing.

My Background is West Indian via the Carribbean and the UK, the Blacks that were around me growing up tended to have similar backgrounds.

In college, I hung out with White Kids and West Indian kids.

The Blacks girls I've dated have all been West Indian.

Most of my Black friends now are West Indian.


None of that occurred to me until I read your post, it's rather interesting. It has to go back to my childhood, as my father's friends are either West Indian or White.

I swear he has some sort of Radar, doesn't matter where on earth that man is, he can always find a West Indian cat to chill with.








Peace,










M2

I think I heard the ratio of black men to black women in your area is like 2:1 (Bizarro world to where most black folks are).

........but they're all Male.

There is a Black MBA Club that meets every once in a while (People are usually too busy to do much with it) - predominantly men (probably 5:1 ratio) and the Women are all married or engaged, most of them came out here that way.

I know some Brothas that are trying to get transferred to Atlanta (go into the sales force from marketing) due to the lack of Black Women.

Lotta Beautiful East Indian girls - thing my Mom will buy: "It's almost like West Indian - just a different Compass direction, she's as brown as us anyway"


?


LOL



Peace,









M2

Is their a professional black dating service? I'm sure professional type folks would be a little more comfortable with a long distance relationship if dating black was very important to them.

...putting yourself in a socio-economic and racial box. Interracial dating crosses the poverty line nowadays. There are a lot more poor people engaging in interracial relationships than ever before. Also, I find that most Black men who are in politics will get with Black women. This is not the same for entertainers and folks who are more in the "public eye".

What's funny to me is that I am often invisible to Black men until I am with a white guy, esp. in the "hood. The level of hostility shocked me at first. Looking at me you can't tell my age or my economic status. I don't look like I belong in a college classroom, nor do I look like many professional Black women. Only recently, have I noticed a change, as more average (blue-collar) Black men will pay attention to me when I am going about my daily business. However, I have never felt a need to defend or justify any of the choices I've made as far as who I date and that is why I care less about who Black guys date.

No message

>don't get that shit twisted.

Again, I warn you, Utamoroho.

I'm open to dating anybody, I just know that in certain instances there are higher chances for success.

As I know in my last relationship, those socioeconomic differences is what killed things in the end, as far as my professional life, career and how that impacts my day to day life, she didn't understand me at all.

"I can't just move to Costa Rica for three years, my career is in the US, no, that part of the US won't work due to the level of industry and the lack of good B-School or Law School nearby"

She heard: "I'm closeminded and am dismissing your ideas out of turn"

Career impact wasn't really in her vocabulary, to her it was just me being closeminded or perhaps a little greedy, as she just sees a minimal impact on my earning power and isn't looking at it within the context of the goals I've set for myself.

It made things hard for me, as I would go to work and discuss career or my relationship issues with female co-workers or with other female friends and they completely saw where I was coming from. "Is she crazy, why would you leave this job to move there, or Costa Rica isn't going to be good for your career, in fact, it would set you back big time"


I've had this occur in the past too.

Again, I'll date anybody and I'm not here looking for a rubber stamp, just to share opinions - I just know that in certain situations there is less chance for success and I'm wondering if anyone else can see that viewpoint.





Peace,









M2

My co-worker is white and close to 50 years of age. She told me about meeting an older white guy online and dreading seeing him at a user group because they had nothing in common. He sold computer parts (blue-collar) and she's a college professor. I experienced something similar with a "average" Black guy from Miami who I liked a lot but he told me he did not think he was "my type". He said he was average, working-class and felt I could do better. To me is was silly and a shame.

I believe class commonalitis can trump racial ones in certain circumstances and wanted to see if others would agree.


Peace,






M2

>I believe class commonalitis can trump racial ones in certain
>circumstances and wanted to see if others would agree.

My mother married my Pops (both Black) when she was 24 and a college grad and he was 18 and a high school dropout. The stayed married nearly 8 years. The only reason they got divorced was because my father was using drugs. I understand your point but despite what would seem to be "logical" you can't predict love like that.

maybe she just wasn't as career oriented as you. she does not define the thoughts/behaviors of everyone in her class.

thats like saying all niggers are lazy.