I think a lot of hispanics will probably end up getting undeserved amnesty since its functionally impossible to kick them all out at this point without doing some serious human rights violations...but a larger issue is that after amnesty, whats the next goal?

Do we make it as hard as possible to come over here and let hispanics continue to undercut any sort of economy that present citizens can't compete for?

Do we continue to let unchecked immigration violate the sovereignty of those who came over legally and did things the right way?

For all this talk about illegal immigration, i'd hate for them to co-opt the black community as support for their citizenship when we know they'd probably not have our backs when we have to increasingly compete for spanish speaking jobs or not find low-wage work for ourselves.

Donald Trump might be a little myopic in his phrasing and biased in his reporting of crime statistics, but isn't he right that illegal immigration is a huge issue?

And hispanics aren't even all of them. We are talking europeans, asians, islanders, etc.

= 0 fucks given!

Income inequality
Crimial justice reform
Renewable energy

See, this is the sort of irresponsibility I fear is taking root in which people aren't even invested in their own communities to see when their own autonomy is being stolen out from under their own feet.

and almost impossible to offer a solution


there are places in this world where people are immigrating illegally and the places they are desperate to get to, at best will treat them as slaves and at most will literally kill them. yet they still come...



these people are making trips where just the very act of making the trip could kill them, and the place they are going to they will be treated as less than human yet they are still pouring in by the thousands.


So to me stemming the tide of human movement is probably impossible as its how our species has survived. without addressing the reason these people are fleeing their home country, the country they are fleeing too cant realistically deal with it

Its supposed to be hard and dangerous. I don't know why we should reward people who happened to "make it"

i see it as you dont have many options short of whole sale rounding up and deportation

It should be as hard as possible to cross that border. Its the single most active border in the entire world.

Why should people win some prize just for surviving?

Nah fam...you broke the rules. You jumped the line. Get out of here.

there are places in this world where it has literally been made as hard as posible to immigrate to and from certain places and people still come by the thousands and millions


so considering there are countries that give ZERO fucks about human rights and they still have a flood of immigrants, exactly how can the united states make it "as hard as possible" for immigrants to come here illegally?

There are nations that don't respect humans as much as we do when it comes to immigration for a place of our size and population...its way too easy to get here.

The border is non-existent for much of its length.

that push back forcefully as you put, to the extreme
and they are still flooding into these places.


its not a deterrent

I'm not saying no illegal shall ever touch our shores again. I get that.

But to say that we can't make it more difficult is just silly and people keep getting caught up in these emotional stories without thinking about the legality of the affair.

please

There are parts which literally don't even have so much as a fence or barbed wire

how would you go about "Securing" it?


personally the only way i could see us ever securing it is via the increasing capablities of remote monitoring technology.


i still dont think its going to be efficient or effective (by efficient im talking about the money spent to implement and maintain vs the benefits obtained)

and tomorrow it's at your front door.

Look at the current infringements on American rights, it all started experimentally on non-citizens.

All you're talking about is how good or bad the plan is...not about fixing anything.

Its like you don't even care.

The border is NOT secured.

And when theres a political will, theres a way. Its really simple at what it'd take to secure.

We have no problem monitoring the canadian border either.

its the of the most un-gaurded, pourous borders in the world.

you understand why there's not a massive immigration problem from canada right?

we have built a massive wall that is not working, we have electronic survellance.


all of these kinds of things are happening right now which are turning into huge wastes of money


which is where my ideas about whether or not something like this would be efficient


ok thats my last post on this, have a good day

We need more secure borders. Its really not that hard to understand.

Saying how "hard it is" doesn't change the fact of what it should be.

while you stomp your feet up and down saying "make it harder"


and im the one bitching?


seriously dude, fuck off

I told you some simple things that need to be done and you're talking about "well people still sneak through therefore lets not do any of it"


The hell is your damn problem?

Are you the United States drug czar? hahahahahahahahaha

besides learn spanish if plan on stayin in socal. and gaining new skills so i don't have to settle for low wage work which will be goin to the mexicans.

as my barber said, "better get your education up: only two types of people going to be working in 20 years. mexicans and computers!"

They'll do any and everything...and that hurts black workers looking for the same jobs, but who have more of a legal right to those positions.

what am i supposed to do outside of get my skills up (which i should do even if there were no immigrants) or get out of the paint entirely and move to somewhere in the US with not as many messicans?

honestly, in a globalized multi-polar world, black americans should be thinking glboal. esp with the events of the last few years, if you don't have a family or too much tying you here, by all means start looking outside of America.

obvs most can't afford to move or have no interest, but if you're young and don't have a family, it's something to keep in mind...

Why should we move?

Theres more black people in the USA second to brazil outside of africa.

Theres more black people in the USA than everyone who lives in canada.

Theres more black people in the USA than any black people in Europe and Asia combined.

This is our home. All this talk of "leaving" is incredibly stupid and naive...and frankly cowardly.

Illegals ain't leaving...why should we? And we're all citizens too!

it's about quality of life. i will go anywhere in the world where i feel i can get the best quality of life.

i mean...Pasadena, CA is my home. should i stay here til i'm dead? am i coward if i move to Chicago?

Again, blacks in the USA have the highest standard of living anywhere across the black diaspora...and now you're talking about learning spanish cause you're too afraid to stand up for yourself?

You sound like you forgot you were someone with actual interests.

Always running instead of standing up to something.

Its very simple.

You're not legally allowed to be here.

>Its very simple.

it is not.

>You're not legally allowed to be here.

who is?

what does "legally allowed to be here" entail?

i can't tell.

Our society has entrusted a set of legal metrics to declare who is or who is not authorized to live here.

>Our society has entrusted a set of legal metrics to declare
>who is or who is not authorized to live here.

that doesn't sound simple is all.

Dont play semantics.

but i understand why.

otherwise we'd never have left the african continent


people move thats what they do


no artificial border has ever succeeded in stopping that

i'm still not clear on what exactly we're talking abt.

and why.

>otherwise we'd never have left the african continent

we didn't "leave"

we were kidnapped, in every sense of the term.

>people move thats what they do

>no artificial border has ever succeeded in stopping that

no, in the case of most non yts, they are forced to move, by direct and/or indirect force.

correct me if i'm wrong.

im saying this guy says we just need to try harder to stop illegal immigration



im saying its impossible to stop migration/immigration of people

that have not a single white person in them

just look at a place like Burma or Qatar

its a product of nationalism, imperialism, and xenophobia


but thats an entirely different debate

indeed.

What are you arguing? Since we can't do it absolutely, then we shouldn't try to curb it?

How do these defeatist arguments make it out of your brain?

i suppose the same way illogical, false ones escape yours.

First you don't know what an illegal immigrant is.

Then you don't know what citizenship is

Then you don't know how low-skilled/wage workers impact the black community.

What the hell is your point???????????/

>First you don't know what an illegal immigrant is.

yes, i'm asking you to tell me your definition of an illegal immigrant, beyond "someone who the government says can't be here"

>Then you don't know what citizenship is

yes, i'm asking you to explain to me what that citizenship is supposed to mean to a "legal", let alone a blk "legal".

>Then you don't know how low-skilled/wage workers impact the
>black community.

i don't know how this is a product of "illegal immigration", and not racism/yt supremacy.


>What the hell is your point???????????/

my point is that you are misinformed, and the arguments made allthroughout your post are false.

The DHS says it right here...DUMBASS:

http://www.dhs.gov/xlibrary/assets/statistics/publications/ois_ill_pe_2010.pdf

Legal Residents
The legally resident immigrant population as defined for these estimates includes all persons who were granted lawful permanent residence; granted asylee sta- tus; admitted as refugees; or admitted as nonimmigrants for a temporary stay in the United States and not required to leave by January 1, 2010. Nonimmigrant residents refer to certain aliens who were legally admit- ted temporarily to the United States for specified time periods such as students and temporary workers.

you can't beat me.

You're over here arguing semantics over the simplest definition in a high school civics course

>You're over here arguing semantics over the simplest
>definition in a high school civics course

no, i'm arguing interpretation.

You're pathetic.

who said that?

>You're pathetic.

you're talking abt yourself.

discussion about this

i havent insulted you or said anything derogatory


you are treating this as a very yes no black and white subject


im saying dealing with a problem that has been the way humankind has operated for our entire history is going to take alot more than just "making it harder" as it has been proven that this does not work.

im saying its more nuanced, is some kind of legitmate way to bring people into your society the answer? i dont know


my whole point is that NO ONE has a valid solution and ive been trying to draw out of you some kind of specific idea as to what your solution would be but hey you can keep acting like an ass and I'll go find something else to do

Making it harder DOES work. It discourages that many more people not to do something and those who attempt it risk their own livelihood. For those that do make it, then its even fewer than the ones who thought not to do it.

The point is that its too easy to get over here and not enough is being done to stop them.

You arguing about what makes someone "illegal" is flat out stupidity.

i'm not stupid, either.

you don't make any fucking sense.

Whats so hard to understand here.

while ascending from the first level of hierarchy of disagreement

>Whats so hard to understand here.

i don't understand what/who defines a person as legal/illegal, and what that legal status entails.

i was clear, you were notso.

Lets be honest...cause as simple as this crap is and knowing you have google right there, for you not to understand what makes someone a legal citizen vs an illegal one just shows how unqualified you are to even be challenging anything we're talking about in here.

Its literally that simple.

^^^ showing your ass

plenty of shit in this country bothers me

but as I clearly stated in my reply

there's more important things to focus on

that have a bigger affect on my life in america

than what bothers me

in your opinion it would be more repsonsible to invest in a wall?

"this is the sort of irresponsibility I fear is taking root in which people aren't even invested in their own communities to see when their own autonomy is being stolen out from under their own feet"

I don't doubt that you're scared though

I'll play along

congrats on pointing out A problem

what's the solution?

Illegal immigration is AS important to the black community as any other issues ...the fact that you're using that "oh well i can't relate" argument shows how disingenuous you are.

>as any other issues

how so?

what other issues are you referring to?

Its very simple.

Legal immigrants are not illegal ones.

>Its very simple.
>
>Legal immigrants are not illegal ones.

that doesn't make sense.

If you can't acknowledge what it means to be a legal resident or an illegal one, then we have nothing to discuss.

that was not my intention.

>If you can't acknowledge what it means to be a legal resident
>or an illegal one, then we have nothing to discuss.

it has nothing to do w/ my acknowledgement.

i'm asking you to explain the difference between the two.

who determines?

are those doing the determining not "illegal" at one point?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9L36gryNTbY

to their flawed fuck views.

Unless you become LEGAL...you're ILLEGAL

Stop playing games in here.

You think you're witty and trying to play your best Jon Stewart impression and its not going to work on me.

Leave that crap in I'm a leftist freshman 101.

These parlor tricks should be left amongst the plebs like yourself.

>Unless you become LEGAL...you're ILLEGAL
>
>Stop playing games in here.
>
>You think you're witty and trying to play your best Jon
>Stewart impression and its not going to work on me.
>
>Leave that crap in I'm a leftist freshman 101.
>
>These parlor tricks should be left amongst the plebs like
>yourself.

so, that's your answer?

"unless you become legal, you're illegal"

analysis

seeing as you haven't yet offered any solution to the problem you are so happy to point out

= 0 fucks given!

not worrying about messicans taking said low wage work. they can have em.

Yes, everyone should be making 6 figures, but thats not really the hand of cards we're working with, are we?

one of the things that frustrates me--even though I understand there are a lot of valid reasons for it--is the ongoing pessimism and lack of recognition for the gains black Americans have made. You have way way way more highly educated and professionally accomplished black Americans than you did at any point in the past. I get that things have a long way to go but sometimes I feel like the negativity from some black folks is selling their own people short.

which is why i don't buy into the doom and gloom talk in regards to immigration

not that it's really my place to be enthused or discouraged but i do feel like there is a real defeatist menality sometimes, on these boards and elsewhere.

Blacks need these jobs that are being done by people who don't even have the legal right to breathe air in the country. Do you realize the problem with that?

Yes, it'd be great if all black people lived in gilded mansions...but the fact remains that low wage, unskilled labor needs to be filled by people already living in the USA.

Who are going to college in record numbers, becoming doctors and lawyers at unprecedented rates, etc. But definitely give them day labor jobs picking strawberries or doing hard-ass construction job for non-union wages. Honestly man this shit is getting more self-loathing and xenophobic by the second.

Its already hard enough making a way for yourself...so having to compete with people who will do the job for way less than you will makes it even more ridiculous to compete.

Not to mention the increase in jobs asking for spanish speakers as well near major cities.

Blacks are already underemployed...now they can't even compete with some of these jobs.

Like, as in, outside our borders entirely.

All the time. Wake up, it's 20 fucking 15. You're talking some shit 1925.

American problems > everywhere else.

I am talking about jobs being outsourced, dummy, and that has nothing to do with illegal immigrants or immigrants at all. And that means I am talking about the PLIGHT OF AMERICAN WORKERS.

You are misdirecting your anger, especially at illegals who WORK FOR A LIVING. They are people trying to make it and making a big sacrifice in the process. Meanwhile the businesses employing them and the businesses sending the job overseas seem beyond reproach to you.

it's around 60% nationally and something like 25% in some cities (like NYC & Detroit). Should these people not work? Or should they be looking for higher wage work?

You don't even realize it, but you're not even trying to help stem the tide of illegal immigration with even small acts like that.

niggas dont cut yards no more, we too good for that...plus that shit is pretty much monopolized in my city...i can pay these guys who do a magnificent job..or cut it myself

...for pay. My next door neighbors, for example, just had a brother doing their yard on Friday.




Since 1976

Ok thats what i thought...nigga this aint georgia...messicans have landscaping monopolized unless u do it yaself

who cuts grass as an occupation/hustle here, and I haven't seen one cutting grass for pay since the 90's.

There is nothing I can do to stop illegal immigration and even if I was able to do it, I don't know if I want to invest energy into stopping it.

At the end of the day, illegal immigrants come here and do jobs that many legal residents don't want to do. In addition, they don't bother me nor affect my livelihood.

Lastly, I have no issue with illegals staying g here as long as they a idea by the laws of the land and attempt to gain citizenship.

And they only reason they do those "shitty jobs" is because they price americans out of those jobs in the first place.

i'm talking about min wage jobs. not under the table sharecropper/busboy type shit

and yeah if i were a business owner i'd hire the people who would gladly take my shitty job and work 40+ hours without complaint.

Its almost treasonous...then you wonder why things are as bad as they are for people who are trying to get those jobs as americans.

unless the american government is paying me to hire americans.

See, i'm glad you're exposing how carefree you think this is.

You just want others to resolve these problems while you sit on your hands and just roll with wherever the wind takes you without taking time to assert why this affects you and how you can do something to stop it.

Yet i bet you're going to sit up here and talk about all the problems that exist in your own community, right?

>And they only reason they do those "shitty jobs" is because
>they price americans out of those jobs in the first place.

I don't care if they are here or not. I guess that means I don't want to stop it because it isn't a top priority in my personal life.

The reality is that they are here. There is nothing I can do to physically keep people from crossing the border.

Lastly, people like to piss and moan about them being here and pricing Americans out of certain jobs, but those people don't want to talk about t Americans who hire illegals immigrant labor.

People, business and corporations love to exploit and reap benefits from cheap labor. It is what it is. Once people who care about illegals being here stop employing illegals as well as the state and feds top giving illegals benefits and resources reserved for legal citizens, then maybe these illegals may decide to go back to their respective homelands.

I am not sure about your current living situation, but there are plenty of Americans doing alright or better, despite illegal immigration. Those who hustle, eats. Those who don't, starve or struggle.

I already had it out with Coolidge over this a few years ago. I ain't getting into that again. My advice? If you're black, white or whatever, learn Spanish. It can only help. Probably in a few generations, it will cease to matter. Latinos will have assimilated heavily. This shit is so cyclical, whether it's Italians or Irish or Chinese or Mexicans or whatever, the demon deacons are always out making the same arguments that have proven wrong in the past and insisting that this time it's different.

Why the entire hell should anyone here learn spanish?

Thats literally one of the most offensive things you could suggest to any American.

How deeply American of you to take pride in your own ignorance. Shit in a lot of countries you learn two or three languages damn near from birth. My mom grew up speaking five languages (and ultimately learned four more). When I lived in the Netherlands, everyone with even a basic grade school education spoke three languages. And places such as Morocco and Holland are nowhere near as multi-cultural as the United States. So why, as a beacon of acceptance and diversity for the entire planet, should we be so resistant to the notion of understanding each other better?

Moving beyond the idealistic side, let's go to the practical side. You open up more opportunities professionally, economically, socially, romantically and artistically by learning to speak another language conversationally. Due to internal demographics as well as the languages spoken in neighboring countries, Spanish is the most logical choice. But please, continue celebrating your own stupidity, this thread is doing a marvelous job of it.

What do you stand up for?

Nothing? Do you have any values? And preferences?

Or are you just going to let a bunch of illegal people..

... ILLEGAL PEOPLE ...

Come to your country, change the language you speak, and force you to adopt their way of life just because they want you to?

There should be benefits and advantages to being a citizen. No other nation does this sort of crap. Why should the USA?

I take considerable offense both the idea that I wouldn't "stand up for it" and also that "standing up for it" means a rejection of other languages. Learning one language will deepen and enhance your understanding of all other languages. It will also open up possibilities for you in literally every significant realm both locally and globally. You are pushing a really ignorant viewpoint here.

Furthermore, immigrants coming here and exchanging ideas with us is HOW THIS COUNTRY WAS SHAPED. It was further shaped by one of the things that makes me most proud to be an American, an exploratory spirit that sends out into the world to find the most alluring, most effective and best things and make them ours, whether by importing them or copying them. Whether or not that dynamic is sanctioned by law is frankly of very limited consequence to me. The idea is that we are constantly evolving and shaking things up, regardless of stodgy notions about tradition. Leave that shit to the developing world.

When 5% of the country is illegal, you have a serious problem here.

This isn't about becoming more open minded, its about having respect for the rule of law and respecting those who did the right things and played by the rules.

illegals do not have the right to jump the line and take opportunities out of the hands of those who are citizens. Its literally that simple!

WHAT IS SO HARD ABOUT UNDERSTANDING THIS?

COME. HERE. LEGALLY!

positive contributions and if they didnt the generations that followed them did, and they would never have done it if the first group didn't that chance.

you sound like some brick-headed fool that's never left the brick city. when you see the world you see just what a ballsy risk it is to chuck it all and start over, regardless of the circumstances.

the main thing we need is a stronger emphasis on violent crime prevention and enforcement, for non-citizens and citizens alike. fewer tedious regulations on the books and more focus on substantive ones.

Lets be honest.

Some slipped through...and?

They weren't supposed to.

And here we have powerful interests that encourage it, yes.

So far it has yet to ruin the world or the country, so go fuck yourself.

I hope your not black on that "the white mans language over errything!" fuckery.

It's not just about economics.

1) Spanish is a beautiful language
2) Bilingual people seem to get Alzheimers 5 years later than uni-lingual folks. Being bilingual also helps with creativity.
3) Makes you more worldly
4) Spanish music and literature is amazing and learning spanish will give you a deeper appreciation
5) YOU CAN GET AT SPANISH BITCHES
6) If you're in a hispanic owned business and they talking greasy about you behind your back, you wanna know and call em out in they own language

if white dudes are out here learning spanish and the cards are already stacked in their favor, i'm sure your black ass can only benefit.

1. Spanish is cool...in spanish speaking countries.
2. I don't care about staving off alzheimers in poorly controlled meta-studies you wanna reference from HuffPo headlines
3. Worldly? Get a passport.
4. I don't need a deeper appreciation of spanish. They need a deeper appreciation of the USA and the English language.
5. I don't care bout spanish chicks. They can speak english.
6. Too stupid to even take seriously.

Stop all this denigration of what you are and what you have.

This fetishization of "the other" is disgusting and frankly counterintuitive.

You're so open minded your damn brain will fall out when you remember how xenophobic a lot of these immigrants already are towards blacks.

and i live near LA nigga so i know about some xenophobia.

i'll get with the times and you can get your blood pressure up over some mexicans

Again, this just exposes your disrespect for standards and rules meant to protect all americans.

These hispanics are exploiting the black underclass and won't be there to help you when shit hits the fan.

I have NO problem with legal immigrants...especially people with viable skills and experiences to help their communities and raise the standards here.

Illegal immigrants often offer nothing but unskilled labor and make it harder for people who are already struggling to provide for themselves.

if they immigrate legally and go to college and all that they might still take a job from a college educated black person because the white dude hiring might be on some "well, mexicans work harder" bullshit


so i'm not seeing your point if all you care about is black folks getting ahead

Not to mention that legal immigrants tend to have more to offer than outpricing an american citizen on labor and low skilled work

whether they make min wage or not

all my niggas got jobs. my nigga got a messican girlfriend and he blacker than obsidian. how come he aint got killed by them mexicans that don't like him? how come he's not jobless and destitute in a place that is damn near ground zero for illegal immigrants.

it's not all black and white. we live in an abundant world. believe it or not, mexicans can be JOB CREATORS too.

I'm only talking about illegal immigrants here.

And congrats on getting you and your friends jobs. Is this supposed to challenge anything i'm discussing?

And that illegal immigrants are taking these grand jobs and suppressing opportunity.

You are also falling into this weak-minded trap of doing things "the right way." How about the brain drain of other countries and what it does to suppress opportunity here? That is a two-way street of peril. You're trying to bust old Ignacio's balls over his landscaping job when you're looking past a Kaiser Permanente filled with Indian and Chinese doctors. Now, personally I don't consider either one problematic or undesirable, they are a result of labor, education and market conditions, but you seem to want to affix a lot more to it than that.

H1Bs are a different matter all together and I believe that needs to be reformed since the job classification is way too vague.

However, again, there is an employment crisis when BLACK MINORITIES CAN NO LONGER COMPETE!

These are supposed to be the last refuge of employment and blacks who have more legal autonomy and right than any other immigrant group in the USA can't even find work in these foundational jobs.

There is an employment crisis. Thats the issue. And why should we wait until a problem arises? Thats not good governance.

Look man, speaking another language doesn't mean you stop speaking your own. You can lead by example and do your civil duty toward the collective AND at the same time give yourself a competitive advantage over two large groups, Americans who only speak English and immigrants who only speak Spanish. It's no-risk proposition by which you're able to uphold your own ideals, gain access to a new/vast world and compete in all areas with the overwhelming majority of people around you.

If anything people should embrace the opportunity. In so many other places, where people are not so proud of their own ignorance, it would just be normal for every waiter and prostitute in the country to speak multiple languages. Here something that is obviously not that fucking hard can create an advantage for you, all while not undermining your own heritage and principles in any way, shape or form.

What is all this BS you're spewing?

Talking about becoming more worldly? The hell?

No.

Take that spanish shit south of the border and keep it there.

Theres nothing ignorant about asking visitors to respect where they visit

I can see why you want to protect low-paying jobs, as you appear to have zero ambition, foresight or adaptability and probably think the rest of your community is just like you.

same folks "complaining" are the ones who benefit the most.

further confusion.

We all know they aren't going to rush to our aid when things get real and already being bilingual hurts blacks in the long run by and large too.

>We all know they aren't going to rush to our aid when things
>get real and already being bilingual hurts blacks in the long
>run by and large too.

there's a reason why we classify ourselves by these colors in the first place.

Democrats = a group to exploit for votes

yt supremacy = racism.

But we are not talking about the powerful few setting agendas, we are talking about public attitudes and adaptations there toward.

>we are talking about public attitudes and adaptations there toward.

is it not all relative?

i'm asking if it is not all the same thing.

I actually think that policy and politics have considerable dissonance, and certainly in the contemporary American system. One is theory, the other is practice. There is a relationship, certainly, but they are not one in the same.

This is whats so scary...

White supremacy exists and all that...but do you think these mexicans are going to help you either?

Cause they damn sure ain't looking out for black people like that.

but way to put words in my mouth and make a bunch of (false) assumptions in a very small space. that was impressive.

i was talking about anti-black racism among latinos in a shit load of threads before and i dont want to bring it up in here. i also think that like a lot of other things, it's something that comes out in the wash after a generation or three. i think you're really pushing a bunch of ideas in this thread that lack context and ignore the broader dynamic of mass immigration to the united states, which is no different just because the immigrants are mexican or otherwise latin american

non-existent

Was that unfunny sarcasm, a totally delusional opinion or did I misunderstand altogether? Or is some absurd Black Studies 101 semantics trolling where you'll say "Well maybe anti-black bigotry but not racism because (insert diatribe about power structure and privilege here)"

>Was that unfunny sarcasm, a totally delusional opinion or did
>I misunderstand altogether?

none of the above.

>Or is some absurd Black Studies
>101 semantics trolling where you'll say "Well maybe anti-black
>bigotry but not racism because (insert diatribe about power
>structure and privilege here)"

no, not that either.

so let's change the word racism to bigotry to avoid any broader discussion/disagreement.

actually, let's not. let's look at LATIN AMERICA itself. let's look at the D.R. right now. let's look at caste and colorist systems throughout. please reconsider your position. you're a cool person with enlightened views, let's not throw mush-headed things in there that rig some olympics of hatred in white people's favor.

the whole one-way street that is deferential to the pervasiveness of white supremacy is an inaccurate argument in my view and, regardless of that, it's proven to be an unproductive one. it's basically a trump card that will frustrate the people you are trying to reach and educate to no end, rather than move toward common ground. i saw this over and over in ethnic and gender studies disciplines and the real world, too. i get the wisdom to this sort of thinking, there is plenty of it, but i think ultimately it's inadequate in terms of individual understanding and certainly in terms of persuasiveness.

only yts have the power to influence where you live
only yts have the power to influence where you work
only yts have the power to influence if you live or die

later, man.

and, although they are indeed published, they are not my words.

& i'll explain exactly what i mean.

They should not even be here in the first place...so all this talk about internal racism is something that shouldnt even be discussed as a primary issue since they shouldn't be on this side of that border.

treatment in Latin America.

nothing.

racism is yt supremacy, and there is only one form.

the rest is only disagreements among ppl.

no one but yts have the power to be racists.

>treatment in Latin America.

all ppl of color worldwide are subject to racism/yt supremacy.

>all ppl of color worldwide are subject to racism/yt
>supremacy.
>

And they happen to be POC themselves.

and how are they not still subject to the same discrimination, whenever a racist/yt supremacist sees fit?

in what way?
monetarily? how?

i don't know what you mean.

Morocco? Taiwan?

and/or are subject to it.

....you don't think so?

You thought blacks in america were struggling?

Univision looks like the Today Show in the 90s.

The media would have you think no black people live in central or south america.

while you literally have not responded once w/o insult.

so it makes it hard to take it seriously. It's always the LEAST diverse areas that raise the biggest ruckus because they don't want to adjust to new, different people.

Why is this so hard to understand?

I got love for them as "humans"...but that doesn't mean you get to stick around just because you might be a cool person.

having immigration laws is xenophobia now?

>Why is this so hard to understand?
>
>I got love for them as "humans"...but that doesn't mean you
>get to stick around just because you might be a cool person.
>
>having immigration laws is xenophobia now?
>
>


In my experience, the people that tend to harp on THIS particular law tend to be xenophobic. This debate flares up when times are tough and some people need a scapegoat.

People have been coming across the Mexican border for work for as long as there's been a border and it's never been a credible threat to the sovereignty of the country.

Immigration isn't the same as property tax nor traffic signals

Its equally as important.

>Immigration isn't the same as property tax nor traffic
>signals
>
>Its equally as important.


Particularly of the "overstayed their student or travel visa" variety.

From my experience, I think our enforcement of immigration laws are about right. It's a risk to become an illegal because some jobs do care about your status and you may not have as much opportunity to pursue a career. Also, if you get in serious trouble here, you can and should get sent home. On the flip side, you also CAN'T go home for significant family events like the funeral of a parent or sibling lest you not be able to return.

Those are all very strong motivations to eventually get legal status. It's actually not comfortable being illegal, but many do it because the risks at "Home" are even greater and the potential reward for their children is enormous. And if they and their childern are successful, the more successful American society is.

politically Latinos remain diverse, nuanced, and, to put it bluntly, undefined. They are driving strategists crazy and have been for about 20 years.

We need to start asserting our demands and interests more...

very low paying jobs are a symptom of a bigger problem. The jobs illegal immigrants are taking on are the worst jobs to have really. There is something wrong with the current picture where it is ok to exploit labor the way illegals are used.

So if you are against illegal aliens working for us then are you prepared to start paying a living wage for people working in the lowest ranks?

So then are you also ready to pay more for goods and services?


Further, you keep touching upon the concept that "Mexicans will never have our backs" that's just crazy talk, how can you even begin to say that when its proven that groups of people aren't even down for their own groups? Just look at how fucked up and stingy we got when it came to having a dialogue about increasing minimum wage to a livable standard.

Your Us versus them mentality is actually hurting the possibility that people could get along.

We can't even talk about who should get paid what wage for what job in what industry because these people should not even be breathing US air.

Step back from everything you're saying right now.

We can discuss all these other things once we establish who a citizen is...then we can talk about the BENEFITS OF CITIZENSHIP

The jobs you keep mentioning for black people are positions that are not ideal and they tend to be on the exploit-y side of things.

It's a mutually beneficial system. Cheap labor for capitalists living the dream and a way to make money for undocumented people.

Now if you want to eliminate the possibility for illegal immigrant tonworknthose jobs then you will have one gigantic hole to fill and I do not think comfortable Americans would be willing to work those positions until employers would be willing to make those work environments safe and comfortable while also paying a decent wage

If you want to cut the head off this situation then you have to admit that a lot of people are responsible for this.


Really if you want to talk about an America for Americans then education and training should be the focus.

Actually I wonder if you might be able to point me to some stats that will explicitly call out industries where blacks people can't get in because illegals are taking are darn jobs

Crap jobs will always be crap jobs. We can talk about wages and benefits, but they're still crap jobs

When people come here that will do ANYTHING for work, then they take those jobs that could be filled by people who are actually citizens. There have to be benefits to be a legal citizen

and I won't waste your time posting any of my links and having you debase them...just google it. Blacks are the largest minorities displaced when illegal immigrants take jobs from them since blacks are by and large the poorest minorities.

Ol dumbass, xenophobic, not understanding root causes, siding with oppressors punk ass bitch.

Cause as the poorest demographic looking for any way to support themselves, giving away any and all opportunities to people who are undercutting minority citizens on price and benefits hurts blacks the most.

And this has nothing to do with xenophobia. I'm all for legal immigrants with something to offer. As long as they speak english and integrate.

My parents are immigrants too. They did things the right way.

Lol.

Or black illegal immigrants who are also hispanic? lol

Where do they fit in your whole Hispanics vs black people thing?

I've tried to make sense of what your saying but it really seems to just boil down to xenophobia and racism.

You also make a lot of assumptions about the immigration process that seems to indicate you are not all that well-versed on how it works or the barriers/biases applicants face when attempting to go by the rules.

Why do you assume that all immigrants are unskilled/have endured no training or meaningful work experiences in their country of origin?

Why do you assume that all undocumented immigrants who have come to the US came with the intent of unlawful presence?

And if the US economy was so self-sufficient without the contribution of immigrants, why would the job openings/business opportunities that immigrants are able to come and fill even exist? Wouldn't it be harder to penetrate if that was the case?

Have you ever lost a job? What if when that happened, it didn't just mean you were unemployed. It meant that you had to pack up the whole life that you have since you were here and move out of the country. Irregardless of the tens or possibly hundreds of thousands in US dollars you pumped into the economy by way of tuitions, income tax, insurance, etc. Irregardless of a pregnant spouse or a newborn or the side-business you just started? You talk as if every illegal immigrant arrived in the US with an evil grin, rubbing their hands together after hopping a fence. You would be surprised at the number legal immigrants/permanent residents that were probably out-of-status or undocumented at one point, and did what they had to do to survive so they could be your doctor/nurse/contractor/landscaper etc.

I just find positions like yours fascinating when it is considered that, apart from Native Americans, the entire US population descends from immigrants.

and frankly black illegals gotta bounce too.

Citizenship should be honored and revered. Even those with legal green-cards or visas etc.

But black illegals are so insignificant numerically that its not worth touching. Theres probably more european and asian illegals than black illegals to be honest.

Its not racist to ask that your country stop letting ILLEGALs come in. Its really that simple. These people have no right to be here. We can admit this without being called racist. And it applies to any ILLEGAL from any origin...but largely hispanic since they make up over half of all illegals.

Mind you , the immigrants you're discussing are LEGAL ones. I'm cool with that. My parents are legal immigrants.

But miss me with all this woe is me, I gotta pack up and move with my pregnant wife BS...all of those emotional pleas don't change the fact that you're ILLEGAL. Life is rough, and you aren't owed anything, so if you don't want to go through the policies in place, DONT BE ILLEGAL.

To emigrate. Until then, shut the fuck up.

My parents also became citizens in the late 90s too.

So no, I'm not interesting in reading emotional pleas: Illegal is Illegal

Theres a way to do things in the US....and just because you think your tragic backstory means you should come here and jump the line from people who have more education/experience/assets to offer is BS and you deserve to be shipped to whereever you came from.

Ain't shit about emotional pleas. It's about history, foreign policy, immigration policy, and empire.
But you're content being ignorant as shit.

Theres a lack of skilled labor coming to this country and hispanics make up over half of ILLEGAL immigrants.

Keep dodging. You don't care about blacks in this country.

I don't care about everyones inability to get formula for their babies or find bread.

We have problems to deal with HERE...and you don't wanna focus on it.

Your parents should be ashamed.

Why should I care about that father who ILLEGALLY brings unskilled labor to the USA to try and feed his family?

broad, xenophobic, brush and this hard demarcation you are trying to draw between legal and illegal immigrants is not as evident as you seem to think.

Many immigrants who enter lawfully become illegal. Many immigrants who were once unlawfully present can become legal.

In some cases the only difference between an unlawfully present immigrant and a legal one - of similar age, qualifications and intent - is an unfortunate timing of events or an opportunity that came too late.

Once you begin to incorporate these nuances into your position, it might have a shot at being pragmatic. Until then, yes.. it is quite racist and xenophobic.

Fam, thats part of the risk.

If you want to immigrate you have to be on top of that mess at ALL times.

its not racist. Not even slightly.

America should protect its interests for citizens and stop trying to ignore this scourge of ILLEGAL immigrants.

Theres a process that focuses on legals...and theres a reason its there.

get this:

>irresponsibility and carelessness to talk about legality?

The problem is truly staying on top of your status and working towards getting a legal status.

Illegality is the main issue here.

"Many immigrants who enter lawfully become illegal. Many immigrants who were once unlawfully present can become legal.

In some cases the only difference between an unlawfully present immigrant and a legal one - of similar age, qualifications and intent - is an unfortunate timing of events or an opportunity that came too late."

^If you honestly believe a missed court date or lost paperwork are the only barriers to maintaining legal status, then you truly have an extraordinarily narrow and superficial idea of how immigration works in the US.

You can start by acknowledging the systemic barriers/discrimination against immigrants that prevent/delay them from participating in employment opportunities that they are supposed to be able to compete for, by law. Then start thinking about how such discrimination must sabotage an immigration process which is, for the most part, extremely time-dependent. And for immigrants of colour, we are now talking about a compounded discrimination that also includes the discrimination that comes with their race or gender.

Your negative perception of immigrants is so deep-rooted that you don't even seem to see the bias in your position. This is particularly disappointing considering that your own parents are immigrants. Your understanding of the drivers of legal and illegal status is warped and inaccurate.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQ6YFr_VExc

I'm telling ya'll.

you're an herb, log off fam.

Since i'm the only one in here dropping any sort of statistics.

I hope your love affair with illegal low skilled wages doesn't displace your 9-5.

the only thing they didn't debate was whom is impacted by undocumented workers = hs dropouts

other than that

they couldn't even agree if illegal immigration was a net positive or negative

so yeah, other than a debate

what exactly did that present?

also, to add onto my initial reply of this issue being far down on the list of importance

ironic that this topic was episode 5

so I'll assume there's at least 4 more important BUSINESS topics.

a few years back Alabama passed one of strictest immigration laws ever, under the premise that they were stealing jobs, and bringing crime, and fucking up the economy. so they got their wish. most of the immigrants bounced, then their agriicultural industry took a shit, GDP shrunk by over a billion, and their crime rate didn't even drop.

and it wasn't only about cheap labor. farmers tried hiring americans, but none of them could hang. none of them could, or would work even half as hard. (americans ain't trying to throw watermelons, and chase chickens all day). they tried hiring prisoners (cheaper labor), but they weren't trying to do anything but smoke and shoot the shit.

Now they're trying quietly walk back that law, but immigrants are hesitant to go back.

most take jobs that others don't want to take
that says a lot about this country

and white folks came here illegally so this evens the score a little

and don't stop there, let us all get a piece of land in Israel

Let folks up in N Korea, I been to the DMV and heard the propaganda but I didn't cross The Bridge of No Return.

Let us traverse that bitch

Area 51? Cuba?

^^^^ Awl of that

and Angola?

You already know

Everybody's illegal except the native americans.

They don't even blacks here how you going to fight to keep others out. You trying to kick niggas out of house they don't even want you in.

>I think a lot of hispanics will probably end up getting
>undeserved amnesty since its functionally impossible to kick
>them all out at this point without doing some serious human
>rights violations...but a larger issue is that after amnesty,
>whats the next goal?

It is not my intention to take this post to Goku level POASTING but.... THEY WORKED HARD AS SHIT FOR IT. What next goal?

>
>Do we make it as hard as possible to come over here and let
>hispanics continue to undercut any sort of economy that
>present citizens can't compete for?

How much would it take you to pick fruit in 80+ degree heat for eight to ten hours? I need at least $22 an hour personally. In other words, we're talking about jobs none of us want to do.

>
>Do we continue to let unchecked immigration violate the
>sovereignty of those who came over legally and did things the
>right way?

I fail to see what's wrong with trying to feed someone's family so miss me with talk of the right way.

>Donald Trump might be a little myopic in his phrasing and
>biased in his reporting of crime statistics, but isn't he
>right that illegal immigration is a huge issue?
>
Donald Trump is wrong about everything. Businesses don't want to pay workers full wages and save money going under the table so immigration is not a problem. Once immigrants receive amnesty then they receive full rights and employers have to acknowledge those rights. Business owners don't want to do this so ultimately this argument goes nowhere.

Post 185 sums up my point. Greg Palast touched on this as well. Basically let people feed their family.

Honestly, I think that unless you put up boarders around the U.S., illegal immigration will continue. And it is what it is. I don't think we should kick out the people who have a life here. I think that's just wrong. And I don't believe in breaking up the families. That's just evil. So I say give the dreamers their legal papers and make it mandatory for illegal immigrants to file for citizenship by a certain date. And anyone who hasn't filed after that date is at risk to be sent back to their home country.

But they should have to prove that they have a job and that they have been living in this country for years. If you aren't a detriment to society, then you should be able to stay here.

...with a response. Euro-American's collective pompousness was on x10,000 when they coined that term 'cus if ninjaz wanna really get real, Euro-colonialists were thee original 'illegals'.

annoyance to posts is just incredible

& dont feed me any news story, i wanna know how its affecting *YOU*

that way, we can pay $8 for a lb of tomatoes, let lettuce and other produce rot in the fields since no one will pick them, do our own home renovations and yardwork since no one will be at the home depot parking lot, won't have to bother learning Spanish and compete in the global marketplace, wash our own dishes in restaurants, clean our own offices, it's gonna be bad ass! 'Murica!!

Illegal immigration does all the dirty work Americans won't ever do. The vast majority of illegal immigrants are here to work their asses off, despite what Trump and those other clowns keep yelling.

The problem is them working for low wages and providing a surplus of low skilled labor

slaves.

how'd that work out?

Not much more to it than that for me.

Because there are still considerable advantages to doing things the right way that make it worth doing.

I have a colleague in NYC who is like that, came from Eastern Europe to Canada and later the U.S. and he always harps on how unfair it is to his family and blah blah blah blah. I have never even told him my mom came here and brought six family members over straight and legal but literally none of us give a fuck about people who hop the border. No point in having the discussion because the guy is a fucking racist anyway. Every black athlete is some entitled punk and three Dominican kids walking to 7-11 for a Slurpee on a hot day are "thugs" to him. Gives you an idea of the type of person who thinks this way.

i went through the process with my family even became citizens and we have no problems with it.

and san fran, i doubt they help the housing situation...

no snark, just asking.

what impact do you imagine they have?

that illegal immigration falls in the top 5 of things struggling blacks need to be worried about. we got bigger fish to fry...

***
I'm tryna be better off, not better than...

Coffee giant teaming with more than dozen companies to reach jobs goal in next three years


A family foundation started by Starbucks CEO Howard Schultz and his wife is contributing $30 million toward local job training and mentorship programs.

JASON REDMOND/REUTERS

By
JULIE JARGON
July 13, 2015 3:00 a.m. ET
172 COMMENTS

Starbucks Corp. is teaming up with more than a dozen companies in a commitment to increase hiring of young, minority workers over the next three years.

The companies—which also include Alaska Air Group Inc., CVS Health Corp., Lyft Inc.,Microsoft Corp., and Wal-Mart Stores Inc.—have pledged to hire 100,000 mostly low-income, 16-to-24-year-olds as apprentices, interns and part- and full-time employees by 2018.

The coalition was initiated by Starbucks Chief Executive Howard Schultz, who in March vowed to hire at least 10,000 young, low-income people in the U.S. over the next three years. He said that while some of the new hires will replace employees who leave the company, the majority will be new, entry-level jobs in Starbucks cafes. Starbucks currently employs more than 150,000 workers in the U.S., where it operates more than 12,000 retail stores.

The other companies also are largely creating new hourly-wage jobs focused mostly on young African-Americans and Latinos. “We’re not displacing jobs, but creating incremental opportunities in most of these companies,” Mr. Schultz said in an interview.

The hiring effort, dubbed the “100,000 opportunities initiative,” will kick off with a job fair in Chicago on Aug. 13, which the companies expect to result in at least 1,000 hires in the Chicago area over the next 18 months. Mr. Schultz said the coalition plans to hold more job fairs in other cities and that it hopes more companies will join the effort.

Mr. Schultz has frequently involved Starbucks in social issues—sometimes triggering controversy, as with “Race Together” initiative early this year to prompt people to discuss race relations while buying their morning coffee.

Job creation has been a central cause. Mr. Schultz in 2011 teamed Starbucks up with community financial institutions for a program called “Create Jobs for USA,” in which donations from Starbucks customers, employees and others were pooled to fund community business lending. In 2013, Starbucks committed to hiring at least 10,000 military veterans and their spouses by 2018.

As part of the latest hiring effort, a family foundation started by Mr. Schultz and his wife is contributing $30 million toward local job training and mentorship programs.

“It’s very personal for me, having grown up in public housing and understanding what it was like to be that poor kid,” Mr. Schultz said.

Other companies involved with the new hiring initiative include Hilton Worldwide Holdings Inc., Cintas Corp., HMSHost Corp., J.P. Morgan Chase & Co., J.C. Penney Corp.,Macy’s Inc., Porch.com, Potbelly Corp., Yum Brands Inc.’s Taco Bell, Target Corp., andWalgreens Boots Alliance Inc.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/starbuc...00-young-minority-workers-1436770801?mod=e2fb

I'm trying to tell yall about the sheer ridiculousness of black supporting all this illegal immigration, but ya'll don't even care about self interest for ALL people, especially at the bottom.

anyway, back to this article about Starbucks...if SB isn't hiring undocumented minorities then an influx of undocumented ppl - even racial minorities - will have no impact on black ppl's ability to score jobs w/SB under this new program.