to racism or sexism.And that's how I operate my life." (c) Oprah

Saw this quote on IG today and had me wondering if people still believe in the old mantra "A black person has to work twice as hard to get ahead in this world".


It's something that I use to hear a lot growing up but it seems a lot more controversial thing to say today (as seen in the IG comments section).

Is this sentiment too respectability politics for folks today?




**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

Traffic stop just like Oprah could excellence herself to shop in stores where they didn't want to show her expensive goods.
Oprah how brand is built off of change yourself and not the world around you... So it's not surprising she would come to that conclusion.
If your job is overworking you change jobs... Don't rally to change the policy that allows companies to take advantage of you.

___________________________________________________________


DJTB YOMM

raised by a single mama born in Mississippi born in the 50s Oprah?




**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

make them at least good ones.

___________________________________________________________


DJTB YOMM

Do you think you have struggled more in your life against institutional racism than Oprah?


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

If the answer is no... then O must be right and I, nor anyone else would have any right to question or disagree with her for any reason... invalidating any and all debate.
If the answer is yes, then you will argue that nothing I could have done in my 35 years of existence could match up to the "struggle" that O went through. Matter of fact no one could except for maybe MLK and the people on the balcony when he was shot... once again invalidating any and all possible debate.
A logical fallacy in the truest sense and it has nothing to do with the original question posited.

___________________________________________________________


DJTB YOMM

**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

that lacks substance, logic and reasoning. Its a poor attempt to discredit me as a poster because you don't want to address what I said.
You essentially did this... http://creativedisease.com/credimedia/credimediavideos/diversion/diversion.gif

___________________________________________________________


DJTB YOMM

You started by speaking of a realization about the 'struggle' that you think you know that Oprah somehow doesn't know.

My question is why do you think you know something about the struggle that a black woman born in the deep south in the 50s don't know?

That's a very relevant question that you are evading.


You could answer that she is out of touch because she has been O. for so long. Or these are new issues that she never had to deal with.

Those would be substantive answers.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

it doesn't have to be.

w/o regard for whether Sarah knows more about the 'struggle' than O, her point stands - excellence doesn't seem to matter when it comes to police brutality (ask Martese Johnson - http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2015/03/19/bloody-arrest-of-college-student-from-chicago-prompts-investigation-in-virginia/). and even a famous academic can suffer the effect of unfair racial profiling (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/harvard-professor-henry-louis-gates-jr-arrested-home-calls-cambridge-police-racist-article-1.394425) or a Black billionairess (http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2013/08/09/a-38000-handbag-not-unheard-of-in-luxury-market/2635871/).

it seemed like an ad hominem attack.

She choose to speak as an authority. I asked what is the basis for her authority.

She seems to think that Oprah believes that being excellent will make you rise above Racism and Sexism. I ask why does she believe that Oprah doesn't know that is not the case.




**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhetorical_device

We can keep doing this and you can dig your hole deeper but let's not. Bc it's tired since it's clear what Sarah did and how you went ad hominem in response.

You are saying what she said was a rheotorical device. She is saying she is speaking from authority.

The two positions don't go together.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

or discuss th

naw. i'll go back to where i was b4 i edited that previous reply. lol

Normally the only people that are mad at that are racist white folks. Now I'll add you to that list. If you need me to be subordinate to you or anyone else in order to have a logical substantive conversation about race, or any other topic for that matter, I can see why you'd be uncomfortable....
Either way, it doesn't add any logic to your assumptions.

___________________________________________________________


DJTB YOMM

I've done it before too...
Tossed out what I thought was an obvious ringer only to find everyone one all http://www.stephaniefeagan.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Airplane-gif.gif

__________________________________________________________


DJTB YOMM

It's not like we don't have this same personal responsibility argument every other week.



**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

You: Out of these colors two which shade of orange is the prettiest...
http://www.lavenderandlimestudio.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/Color-2.jpg
Me: Neither of those are orange.
You: What are you the authority on orange?!?!
Me: Yes.
You: I knew what you were going to say. You just don't wanna admit I'm right. This orange is the best... http://www.lavenderandlimestudio.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/Color-2.jpg
Me: <sigh>

In Star Trek terms....
http://youtu.be/o_eSwq1ewsU
___________________________________________________________


DJTB YOMM

Analogies are good for making complex things understandable.

This is really simple.

You disagree with Oprah statement and suggested you knew more on the topic then Oprah.

I ask you what is your basis for saying you know more on the topic than Oprah at least 3 times. And you skate the issues and discuss everything but the substance of the question.

So I will ask one last time and move on.

What is your basis for you thinking you understand this issue better than Oprah?

Or I will even put another way to take the issue of authority off the table, what do you think you know about the 'struggle' that you think Oprah is missing in this quote?






**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

>You disagree with Oprah statement and suggested you knew more
>on the topic then Oprah.

even if sarah_bellum claimed that, (which, btw she didnt at all)
what dismisses her from knowing more about this issue than oprah does?

she born a poor black woman in Mississippi in the 50s and she is now a successful black woman in her 60s.

Maybe Sarah knows more about the subject than her. It's possible.

That's why I keep asking Sarah a) what makes her think she knows more and b.) what is it that you know that she doesn't know.

A couple of ways Sarah could know more like I said early if a.) Oprah has become so out of touch or b.) if the times are soo changed that Oprah doesn't have advice on how to make it now. Again, it's possible.

Sarah though, hasn't offered any explanation or substantive counter.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

You think only white people would take issue with your position that you know more about the struggle than a poor black woman raised in Mississippi in the 50s?


I am going to go out on a limb and say that you are no more of an authority on the 'struggle' or racism than Oprah Winfrey.

You can challenge that if you want, but you look simple.

Or to put another way, why should anyone take what you have to say on the matter over Oprah?

But setting aside who is the better authority, you or Oprah, you've yet to say anything of any real substance in this point except being excellent won't stop you from getting shot but who is disagreeing with that?

You made an appeal based on authority and then you and Sowhat got offended that anyone would question such authority. SMH.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

incredible.

take your L, please.

id... nvm

...the police. "Excellence" also requires long-term planning, often at the expense of immediate gratification. Oprah's "excellence" has opened doors for her that, in-turn, have and still allows her to open doors for others. Putting that work in isn't fun or glamorous.

Everyone wants to reap the fruit in October, but how many want to till the land in March?

It means if you're perfect... beyond reproach at all times, super human, inhuman even then you rise above racism and maybe, just maybe you'll be treated with the basic human dignity afforded to everyone else gets for being alive.
It's called dehumanization.

___________________________________________________________


DJTB YOMM

If I've missed this specific case, do you have a link?

is a very old old philosphy, Oprah didn't invent it nor did she innovate it. She's said it in many iterations.
___________________________________________________________


DJTB YOMM

Community building? Physical fitness? etc.

Everything I just listed is a prerequisite for coming up in the world.

Can't have a revolution with dumb folks. Or without a way to bankroll the movement and feed ourselves. Or if we can't organize. Or if we're too weak to fight.

Like I said above, some things require long-term planning and may yield results that we wont get to enjoy. A lot of people that were fighting slavery died as slaves. I appreciate their efforts because we reap the benefits.



People that don't even try to excel (in one way or another) will remain exactly where they started, if not even further back.

Why conflate the two. They have nothing to do with one another...racist aren't logical.
They hate you because you're black...
If they hated us because we don't have education they wouldn't have fled public schools when they integrated. If they hated us because we didn't own homes, they wouldn't have up and sold as soon as a black person moved next door. If the hated us because we didn't follow the law they wouldn't be shooting law abiding black people in traffic stops... but they are. So yes, strive for those things but just don't think it stops racism.
___________________________________________________________


DJTB YOMM

>Can't have a revolution with dumb folks.

they probably shouldn't lead it but they have to be included. it won't succeed otherwise.

this idea that all black people must be T'challa of Wakanda in order to be worthy of a decent life is asinine.

Most people are thoroughly average...hence the word, lol. And ain't nothing wrong with that at all

It is so freakin exhausting. I really do hope one day we can all truly be free.

The difference is these other groups are clandestine and aren't tugging on the coattails of white society pleading for acceptance. That is what's unique to us.

show me how those groups have been systematically targeted and dehumanized by american society --- i'll wait.

Excellence is not a deterrent to racism. Somehow I overlooked that part. It's more of a compass that lets you navigate through a racist society but it in no way is a deterrent as Sarah illustrated.

I'm hoping that's a misquote or something.

and i can go to the market - i don't have to till any land.

Re: http://articles.latimes.com/2000/sep/14/news/mn-20917

“He had means. He had a family. He was living like a human being. And one racist act took him back. And the same is true of me. I spent years developing a career, acquiring assets, engaging responsibilities. And one racist act. It’s all it takes.” And then she talked again of all that she had, through great industry, through unceasing labor, acquired in the long journey from grinding poverty. She spoke of how her children had been raised in the lap of luxury—annual ski trips, jaunts off to Europe. She said that when her daughter was studying Shakespeare in high school, she took her to England. And when her daughter got her license at sixteen, a Mazda 626 was waiting in front. I sensed some connection to this desire to give and the raw poverty of her youth. I sensed that it was all as much for her as it was for her children. She said that Prince had never taken to material things. He loved to read. He loved to travel. But when he turned twenty-three, she bought him a jeep. She had a huge purple bow put on it. She told me that she could still see him there, looking at the jeep and simply saying, Thank you, Mom. Without interruption she added, “And that was the jeep he was killed in.”

If *we* don't believe in ourselves to be and work to become "the shit" then who the fuck else is gonna respect our hustle? We have to build our own communities. People that believe otherwise are probably looking for *other* people to do the work necessary for us to grow.

Growing up, violence from the police was a distant second to violence from other young black men in terms of what I was concerned with. All of the deflecting in the world wont change this fact. Only putting in that work will.

Because at the end of the day you are twice as good.

n/m

excellence & high achievement don't make you immune to the nonsense. you can still catch it.

IT being a bullet, a smear campaign, etc.

of course, you gotta be excellent early.

no room for childhood mistakes that can ruin your prospects.

and if you make it,
the pressure of being excellent as a kid can help you develop psychosis and other mental health issues that can make you
generally paranoid and impede performance.


and let's keep it real, being excellent is still not a guarantee you won't get fucked.



so, no.

I dunno that this advice is the best way to win.

Her words are chosen wisely. She said it's the best deterrence. Which is a key part of the statement that folks seem to miss.


So yeah you can be excellent and it doesn't mean you won't get harassed by cops. It doesn't guarantee success.



>of course, you gotta be excellent early.
>
>no room for childhood mistakes that can ruin your prospects.
>
>and if you make it,
>the pressure of being excellent as a kid can help you develop
>psychosis and other mental health issues that can make you
>generally paranoid and impede performance.
>
>
>and let's keep it real, being excellent is still not a
>guarantee you won't get fucked.
>
>
>
>so, no.
>
>I dunno that this advice is the best way to win.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

what is deterred?

being excellent may be its own reward,
but beyond that, it doesn't help you much.

but b/c they aren't i can't agree that excellence is the way to beat them.

good for O though. i can understand why she clings to that and it's easily done from where she sits. it's very easy to lose perspective as she has - at least as related to this topic. she's not the only one, of course. lots of folks get brand new after they succeed.

oh...and no i never bought into the idea that we had to work 2x as hard largely b/c way back in elementary school i was always either ahead of my class or right there near the top w/them...and i didn't hardly have to do anything. it came easily. i was earning better grades and test scores than white kids w/o working very hard at all. so that mantra didn't make sense to me. i 'get it' now but don't agree w/it.

i believe the contract is still valid. LOL

Saying it's the best deterrence is a very different statement.

She never says Excellence guarantees you anything.




**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

what's the deterrent effect?

Relative to all other "deterrents". And a deterrent in itself is not a cure all or solution.

So being the best deterrent doesn't mean it will guarantee success. Doesn't mean you won't be affected by racism or sexism.

Obama said something similar like education is the best tool to elevate poverty. Doesn't mean getting a good education will guarantee lifting you out of poverty. But education is the best tool for doing so.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

based on that it sounds like she made an empty statement devoid of meaning.

And how do you not see any meaning in the statement? because it doesn't "guarantee to end racism or sexism"?


>based on that it sounds like she made an empty statement
>devoid of meaning.
>


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

what does that ^ mean?

And that there are all sorts of structural and institutional bars to you getting ahead and the best way to minimize the impact that all this racism and sexism can have on you is to strive for excellence.

Because whenever they can blame you for not getting that good grade, that promotion or blame you for being the cause of your death in that police interaction they will.

So the best way to minimize that impact is to not give them an excuse when you can and work twice as hard.

Folks can disagree with that but my question what is a better alternative? Cause most of the alternatives I hear are when you start to hear people talk in naïve and idealistic terms.

The funny thing to me is that people dismiss the twice as hard ethos as out of touch but in my mind there is no worldview more cynical and the naïve idealistic take is the notion that there will be some day of social justice reckoning right around the corner.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

oh okay.

so it's a pretty empty sentiment as i'd suspected. not worthy of much thought.

I think that's interesting and telling in itself.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

What's it say?

In general. Meaning if you're talented and excel at that talent someone will want it (or in the case of racists want to exploit it) as it's always in demand?

I think it meant more when we had fewer examples of Blacks who've been able to move among 'them' and see how 'they' respond to Black excellence. But now it just doesn't say very much. Bc we know plenty excellent talented motherfuckin rich Blacks still deal with enough racism that their excellence doesn't seem to be much of a deterrent. And even if excellence protects us on a micro level we still see it on the macro level and if we have heart and a sense of community that hurts us. So what good is the deterrent? It has some value but not much, imo. So ultimately I think the sentment is cute and if an older relative said it to me I'd smile and nod. But I wouldn't walk away thinking I'd just received wisdom from the Oracle at Delphi or som'n.

I agree with you though and broken down like that it makes plenty of sense. My mom was a repeater of that mantra-- and I think it's applicable to work related situations i.e. getting paid, but not much beyond that. Certainly not a deterrent.

And your whole clinging to this "deterrent"="guarantee" thing is not cute.

There are a lot of people in here shit-talking someone who was closer to the bottom than they ever were and now is way up at the top, geez.

catch up.

this shit shouldnt be in the realm of respectability

this is just in the area of do better because generations before us could not take on the opportunities present today

once this discussion opens up then I get a bit paranoid that end result is people thinking that its ok to do nothing because no matter what you still a nigga.


man. fuck that shit. strive.

however, the notion that if we do better they won't act badly against us is off-base.

>however, the notion that if we do better they won't act badly
>against us is off-base.

We can put ourselves in a position where "they" wont matter as much to us.

The problem I see is that requires self-accountability, something that a lot of people nowadays run from as fast as they can.

it's fantastical, but not off-base.

>however, the notion that if we do better they won't act badly
>against us is off-base.

because you still always have to check a motherfucka
as oprah did, so im surprised she's still on this bullshit
instead they tend to make excuses for why you succeeded. its never because you are a human being as equal to any other successful human being
no, you must be different. exceptional
why is it status quo for everyone except us?
why hold us to a higher standard, if not because you think the default status of being (black) for us, is failure?
and if that is the case, then what do we call that?
we can start with prejudice, and draw the end conclusion of racist

i dont even know why in this day and age
we think excellence will change their minds
no... excellence is not for others, its for us.

.

What I do has nothing to do with someone else's racial/gender biases. That's something that person holds to varying degrees. They may be receptive enough for my excellence to open their eyes or they may not. Either way, it has little to do with me.

Excellence, in general, can allow a person to overcome their circumstances, but it's far from a guarantee. Further, excellence is something that's rare and shouldn't be the bar for basic ass rights. To accept that as a premise is defeatist as hell.

>What I do has nothing to do with someone else's racial/gender
>biases. That's something that person holds to varying degrees.
>They may be receptive enough for my excellence to open their
>eyes or they may not. Either way, it has little to do with me.
>

Agreed
>
>Excellence, in general, can allow a person to overcome their
>circumstances, but it's far from a guarantee.


That's true but if you don't try we already know the results


Further,
>excellence is something that's rare and shouldn't be the bar
>for basic ass rights. To accept that as a premise is defeatist
>as hell.

Depends on how you define it. I just define it as being the best you can be. Doesn't mean. We can't still fight for basic rights, but it's the side I have the most control over.

>Depends on how you define it. I just define it as being the
>best you can be. Doesn't mean. We can't still fight for basic
>rights, but it's the side I have the most control over.
>

I'm pretty sure in this context (gotta be 10x's better than the white folks), excellence is being defined as standing out in relation to others, specifically white folks. I mean, let's be honest, that's the subtext here.

My problem with that premise is that accepting it means accepting that white people are superior. It means proving that I'm 10 x's better just to be treated equally, which may or may not even work.

Ultimately, whether or not someone in a position of influence chooses to recognize my excellence and help me advance is completely out of my control. Obviously, that doesn't prevent me from doing and being my best, because my greatness is within my realm of control to a degree. It still, however, doesn't prevent me from being subjected to racial bias and it's the same for gender bias. Further that mindset is conceding my entire race to a level of inferiority and there's no way in hell I'm giving white supremacists that.

White supremacy and the white power structure and structural racism.

It's the mindset of our parents, and grandparents. They knew that the only way you can get what you deserve in a system so stacked against us is to work twice as hard.

Are you saying our forebearers who believed this believed they were inferior to white people?


>
Further that mindset is
>conceding my entire race to a level of inferiority and there's
>no way in hell I'm giving white supremacists that.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

To continue to spread the myth that we can excel our way out of white supremacy is wrong, as there are centuries of evidence to the contrary. We know better.

>It's the mindset of our parents, and grandparents. They knew
>that the only way you can get what you deserve in a system so
>stacked against us is to work twice as hard.

That was a comforting theory, because it still bought into the myth of upward mobility. The truth, however, is that it is the luck of the draw. You improve your chances by working harder, but it's still a toss up.

>Are you saying our forebearers who believed this believed they
>were inferior to white people?

No, I'm saying they believed what they needed to get through life. We know more now. We have a litany of information that tells us that hard work doesn't guarantee equality. The crazy thing is that this is true not only for race and gender, but also socioeconomic class. The vast majority of white people die in the same class their born too. It's all part of the myth of upward mobility that is a crucial element for driving the system of white supremacy. It's what leads them to say, Look at Obama or Oprah or *insert any magical negro here*.

We know better. It's time we stop all the bullshit and demand better.

It's interesting that you describe the old school view in terms of being a fairytale and wishful thinking because I consider it to be a deeply cynical view.

I think the notion that there is a better way (to the extent anyone articulates one which they usually don't) is the more naive POV which has not been born out by 400 years of history.

I also think its a bit wishful thinking to dismiss the old school POV because it doesn't gaurantee anything (which a lot of people have in this post). As if there is anything in this world you can do to guarantee any outcome.


But there is a lot of food for thought in what you are saying and I have to concede that you may be right.



>To continue to spread the myth that we can excel our way out
>of white supremacy is wrong, as there are centuries of
>evidence to the contrary. We know better.
>
>>It's the mindset of our parents, and grandparents. They
>knew
>>that the only way you can get what you deserve in a system
>so
>>stacked against us is to work twice as hard.
>
>That was a comforting theory, because it still bought into the
>myth of upward mobility. The truth, however, is that it is the
>luck of the draw. You improve your chances by working harder,
>but it's still a toss up.
>
>>Are you saying our forebearers who believed this believed
>they
>>were inferior to white people?
>
>No, I'm saying they believed what they needed to get through
>life. We know more now. We have a litany of information that
>tells us that hard work doesn't guarantee equality. The crazy
>thing is that this is true not only for race and gender, but
>also socioeconomic class. The vast majority of white people
>die in the same class their born too. It's all part of the
>myth of upward mobility that is a crucial element for driving
>the system of white supremacy. It's what leads them to say,
>Look at Obama or Oprah or *insert any magical negro here*.
>
>We know better. It's time we stop all the bullshit and demand
>better.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

>
>>Depends on how you define it. I just define it as being the
>>best you can be. Doesn't mean. We can't still fight for
>basic
>>rights, but it's the side I have the most control over.
>>
>
>I'm pretty sure in this context (gotta be 10x's better than
>the white folks), excellence is being defined as standing out
>in relation to others, specifically white folks. I mean, let's
>be honest, that's the subtext here.
>
>

Yeah probably so knowing Oprah and that would be unrealistic and unreasonable, defined that way


My problem with that premise is that accepting it means
>accepting that white people are superior. It means proving
>that I'm 10 x's better just to be treated equally, which may
>or may not even work.
>
>Ultimately, whether or not someone in a position of influence
>chooses to recognize my excellence and help me advance is
>completely out of my control. Obviously, that doesn't prevent
>me from doing and being my best, because my greatness is
>within my realm of control to a degree. It still, however,
>doesn't prevent me from being subjected to racial bias and
>it's the same for gender bias. Further that mindset is
>conceding my entire race to a level of inferiority and there's
>no way in hell I'm giving white supremacists that.


I never looked at as accepting white superiority just the reality that its a dog eat dog world and nobody iGives a damn about us, so there is no choice but to strive for excellence if you want to move forward. Obviously that isn't an issue for us on this boards but that's what we should be preaching to our kids.

>I never looked at as accepting white superiority just the
>reality that its a dog eat dog world and nobody iGives a damn
>about us, so there is no choice but to strive for excellence
>if you want to move forward. Obviously that isn't an issue
>for us on this boards but that's what we should be preaching
>to our kids.

I think you have to give kids what they need to motivate them. So, if that's what you need to tell your kids to push them to strive for excellence, I'm with it. However, at some point, you're going to have to reconcile them with the reality that even if they are the best, even if they work hard, it still won't be enough for some people, b/c all they'll see is your skin. It's a hard lesson, but we're strong people. I just think we have to start calling it like it is in order to actually change things. The fact is working harder and being better absolutely improves your chances at having a better life, but if you're black, all it takes is for one trigger happy policeman to cross your path and that's done. All it takes is for a racist in a position of power to lock you out of the game. I just think we have to be honest with ourselves.

from a lofty position
so i can laugh in their faces when i see them try and make excuses for my (academic, and other) success
(oh, affirmative action.. or the other day someone was like, 'oh you must come from a very wealthy family...how else did you get into...
or such other shit.)
i excell so i can tell such people that no, i just happen to be hella smart
there's a reason i did the second hardest degree in undergrad- so folks can shut the hell up with their prejudice (and that, for a black person that they add at the end of the above sentence)

so no, i dont think it stops racism or sexism
most racists and misogynists/chauvinists dont really give a shit about someone's 'success' except only their preconceived 'colour' lens
excellence just makes it easier for those of us who are successful to piss all over them every chance that we can
it never minimizes the fear that they will try to fuck you up when they can
it does makes it easier to be unconcerned when they try, to harden yourself from the hits when they come
and it makes it harder for them to defend their stupidity and ignorance
i dont believe it deters it.
its a reason i dont trust or stay friends with them who try and make one a 'token' black person,
behind your back, you are the 'i have a black friend' they use to justify asinine points of view

so, deterrence? no

To be clear, Oprah doesn't say Excellence will stop racism and sexism.

In fact, what she is saying, IMHOP, perfectly dovetails with what you are saying.

When your shit is correct, you can tell them to fuck off.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

i dont... most of us dont agree with that part
we arent arguing that excellence is a bad thing- its what we all strive for
but not becuase we think its going to make racists less racists
its with full recognition that it might actually entrench their racists views

in fact most racists, become even more racist when they see black folk succeeding
this is historically true- its why they were quick to lynch uppity negroes
its true today - its why they think black folk are taking over
that 'white fear' is the fear of black success

so.. i succeed to spite them, not deter them

That's not how it works. Excellence doesn't make racist less racist.
I don't think anyone would argue that's the case.

It helps to minimize the impact or the power they have over your life.

Doesn't stop it. Isn't a guarantee. But it helps.



**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

to having to pay attention to racism or sexism.

Excellence wont change the perception of you to a determined bigot or misogynist.

But living comfortably will make them less relevant to your existence.

aka get money f*ck everything else

>to having to pay attention to racism or sexism.
>
>Excellence wont change the perception of you to a determined
>bigot or misogynist.
>
>But living comfortably will make them less relevant to your
>existence.
>
>aka get money f*ck everything else

**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

..

Remember the original quote was advice given to a child. What does this look like as advice to children.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

what?

i would advise a kid to excell in order to please themselves and not to deter racism or sexism. i wasn't raised w/a chip on my shoulder as related to white ppl and i wouldn't advise a kid that they need such a chip in order to succeed or excell. some ppl disagree and that's fine - i don't think kids necessarily need that.

A distinction without a difference.

"i would advise a kid to excel in order to please themselves and not to deter racism or sexism."

Probably one of the best ways to please yourself is to minimize the impact that racism and sexism has on your life.



**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

and while i would advise a kid to 'excel' (??) i wouldn't advise them that their excellence will deter racism or sexism. in fact i'd tell them the opposite - that they should expect to encounter both racism and sexism as they excell.

basically i disagree that the way Oprah conducted herself based on that old school advise is valid today. and i wouldn't repeat it to a kid.

>that they should expect to encounter both racism and sexism as they excel.

Again, I don't think the quote suggests that you won't encounter racism and sexism. I think it puts you in the best position to handle it.

Just to move away from the theoretical and put into practice the advice.


Someone could review your resume and see that you went to a good college. The racist could go "Hpmmh, you must have got in because of affirmative action".

There is nothing sweeter than hitting them with the #Actually, "I was top of my class in high school and continued to do so in college".

You've just dismantled one racist argument that they can use against you. They still might not hire you, but they can't use the affirmative action excuse to argue against hiring you.




**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

real estate, starting a business, investing, inventions, etc

People do it every year.

My point is that "be Rich" really isn't advice you give a kid.

I think the practical advice would be something like pursue excellence in "real estate, starting a business, investing, inventions, etc"

That or marry rich. Or make rich friends.



**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

i thought it was an IG post that anyone of any age can read.

that being said the point remains the same.

>My point is that "be Rich" really isn't advice you give a
>kid.
>
>I think the practical advice would be something like pursue
>excellence in "real estate, starting a business, investing,
>inventions, etc"
i thought that was implied. Noone gets into those disciplines to be mediocre or eke by

>That or marry rich. Or make rich friends.

Thats not practical advice imo. Thats gold digging advice and teaching girls to be at another man's mercy for their everyday needs. i would never teach my daughter that. Teaching them financial independence and bringing something to the table is better advice. Because relationships eventually end and you still need to take care of yourself.


becoming a self made wealthy person takes commitment, discipline determination, and being fortunate in the fields that have proven to make people financially independent since forever.

money doesn't solve societal ills but it makes them less relevant to your existence.

The quote literally begins with ""I was RAISED to believe..."

Of course the quote is about what you tell kids.




**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

20 years ago the fact that this is Oprah talking would lead most people to at least stop for a moment and consider it. Now the first step with any quote you don't immediately agree with is to list the possible sensibilities it offends.

This has been a sentiment spread through our community for generations and we know it to be untrue. We've seen it disproven time and time again.

"They say their grandfathers and grandmothers worked hard for nothing, 'cause we still in this ghetto."

These kids see it and that's why they no longer buy it. I'm glad about that, because recognizing it's a myth is the only way to enact a real change.

>This has been a sentiment spread through our community for
>generations and we know it to be untrue. We've seen it
>disproven time and time again.
>
>"They say their grandfathers and grandmothers worked hard for
>nothing, 'cause we still in this ghetto."
>
>These kids see it and that's why they no longer buy it. I'm
>glad about that, because recognizing it's a myth is the only
>way to enact a real change.


Nothing is absolute but it's more true than not, we wouldn't have a lot of the opportunities we have today if it were not for the excellence of our forefathers and mothers.

And if you don't think we have it easier or more opportunity go talk to someone over 70

My grandfather was born in 1914 and my grandmother in 1918. They're the ones who put me up on game, since I was old enough to listen.

I'm well aware that there have been some improvements. Upward mobility, however, across the board has been stagnant for at least the last 50 years. That's the trick of it all. We've all been running in place. We get little appeasements here and there, but it's largely the same. If you're born poor, most likely you die poor, regardless of race.

Please don't mistake me for having no hope, though. I'm very optimistic. I just think that by recognizing that upward mobility is a myth and hopefully convincing everyone else they've been sold a dream, we can finally ban together to get some real change done.

So, I'm not saying don't strive for excellence or don't fight for change. I'm saying don't fool yourself or your children into thinking that the current system of oppression respects that. It never has. That's why we need to dismantle it.

>My grandfather was born in 1914 and my grandmother in 1918.
>They're the ones who put me up on game, since I was old enough
>to listen.
>
>I'm well aware that there have been some improvements. Upward
>mobility, however, across the board has been stagnant for at
>least the last 50 years. That's the trick of it all. We've all
>been running in place. We get little appeasements here and
>there, but it's largely the same. If you're born poor, most
>likely you die poor, regardless of race.
>
>Please don't mistake me for having no hope, though. I'm very
>optimistic. I just think that by recognizing that upward
>mobility is a myth and hopefully convincing everyone else
>they've been sold a dream, we can finally ban together to get
>some real change done.
>
>So, I'm not saying don't strive for excellence or don't fight
>for change. I'm saying don't fool yourself or your children
>into thinking that the current system of oppression respects
>that. It never has. That's why we need to dismantle it.


True

You need to be excellent because the system is racist and we need to dismantle it and build something better.

I think that is solid advice you can impart to any child.

I think if you only impart the excellence part then you are setting up your kids to have big surprises in life (Like when Lawrence Otis Graham was shocked that the police would harass his son).

I also think my beef is that people are all about the second part and not about the first half. I don't think that works either.

I also think there is this sense of entitlement that folks are like "wait, excellence doesn't guarantee success? Then what's the point".




>My grandfather was born in 1914 and my grandmother in 1918.
>They're the ones who put me up on game, since I was old enough
>to listen.
>
>I'm well aware that there have been some improvements. Upward
>mobility, however, across the board has been stagnant for at
>least the last 50 years. That's the trick of it all. We've all
>been running in place. We get little appeasements here and
>there, but it's largely the same. If you're born poor, most
>likely you die poor, regardless of race.
>
>Please don't mistake me for having no hope, though. I'm very
>optimistic. I just think that by recognizing that upward
>mobility is a myth and hopefully convincing everyone else
>they've been sold a dream, we can finally ban together to get
>some real change done.
>
>So, I'm not saying don't strive for excellence or don't fight
>for change. I'm saying don't fool yourself or your children
>into thinking that the current system of oppression respects
>that. It never has. That's why we need to dismantle it.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

but as you stated, both ideas are symbiotic. I often hear people push the idea of excellence without expressing the reality that it may not be enough. If you focus too much on the first half of that, it leads one to be complacent about the system. It pushes the idea that exceptions are actually the rule.

Absolutely, we should teach children to strive for excellence, because that's good parenting and decent humanity. Everyone should be striving to achieve their best selves. However, I think that when you stop there, as the Oprah quote did, you give life to the notion that our dire straits are all our fault.

Yes, it's all semantics and I understand the unstated intent, but semantics matter. In an era with all manner of white noise, I think our message needs to be crystal clear. We will strive for and achieve excellence, as we always have. However, this system is fucked and works for no one, but the rich.


>I also think there is this sense of entitlement that folks are
>like "wait, excellence doesn't guarantee success? Then what's
>the point".

I can understand that and that's certainly not what I'm advocating. However, I understand why someone would ask this question. My answer is that much like yours. We should strive for greatness with the goal of not simply thriving in this system, but tearing it apart.

that this little quote doesn't capture Oprah's whole point and she goes on to say the things you mention. I take an L if she goes on to say Bootstrap stuff.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

>Is this sentiment too respectability politics for folks
>today?


so what was the point of asking?

I wasn't fishing for people to agree with me. I'd actually prefer to hear from people who disagree and then ask them questions to fine tune the issue and get to the crux of the disagreement.

Sowhat disagreed but when we discussed it further it seems there wasn't much of a disagreement and he thought the point uncontroversial.

Starbaby Jones made an excellent point that made me reconsider my position.

I got what I was looking for out the convo.




>
>>Is this sentiment too respectability politics for folks
>>today?
>
>
>so what was the point of asking?


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

http://th04.deviantart.net/fs70/PRE/i/2014/027/3/e/oprah_cleavage_shot__by_amac145-d7407ss.jpg

http://img.ezinemark.com/imagemanager2/files/30004254/2011/04/2011-04-01-11-12-10-6-oprah-may-own-one-among-the-worst-bazookas-in-holl.jpeg

I hate all forms of the following:

"If I did it, you can do it too"
"All you have to do is believe/work hard/remain focus/etc. and you will succeed"

and of course any "pull yourself up by your own bootstrap" talk.

Anything that doesn't acknowledge luck and the work others put into getting us here I think is bullshit.


But she isn't saying any of that here. This is more like the "you have to work twice as hard" talk that I think was told to alot of us growing up.




**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

i heard that as a kid and ignored it b/c my experience disproved it - i excelled over white kids w/o working particularly hard.

i wasn't particularly motivated by thinking of white ppl as 'the other' or as some force out to get me and so i needed to work hard and succeed in order to triumph over that evil. i don't think all kids need that kind of motivation either. maybe some do though.

Probably not college either (I don't think I dealt with racist assumptions holding me back in college).

By the time I started working though I saw that it was true. White kids were receiving the benefit of the doubt with regards to their work product whereas people would question my ability to do the work.

>i heard that as a kid and ignored it b/c my experience
>disproved it - i excelled over white kids w/o working
>particularly hard.
>
>i wasn't particularly motivated by thinking of white ppl as
>'the other' or as some force out to get me and so i needed to
>work hard and succeed in order to triumph over that evil. i
>don't think all kids need that kind of motivation either.
>maybe some do though.
>


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

that's true across race for the most part

the reality is...yes...it can help you hurdle a couple race-related obstacles here and there...but unfortunately the workplace isn't the only place we face those obstacles

it's literally bootstraps squared...

how can you not see that correlation?

that's exactly what it is

u can do this...u have to work twice as hard...but that will give you a better chance than luck, money, or any number of uncontrollable to escape the trappings of institutional racism and sexism

it's bull and it definitely can instill an inferiority complex or a built-in resentment chip

work twice as hard bc you can and you want to not bc you gonna have a trump race card lol

I don't think "u have to work twice as hard" means that "u can do this, you just have to work twice as hard".

I think that you can fully acknowledge that luck, money, social network or any number of uncontrollable items are better deterrence than "work twice as hard..."

The difference is "work twice as hard" is the only one you can control.

I think folks in here take issue with it because it doesn't guarantee anything but I think I would also pair that advice with "it's a cold harsh world out there, it's your job to make it a better place".


>work twice as hard bc you can and you want to not bc you gonna
have a trump race card lol

I just don't see that being advice that would motivate me necessarily. It works in a sports context and probably works for some people.

But I am the type who is better motivated by hearing I HAVE to do something to survive as oppose I should do it just because, for it's own sake.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

it can imply that bad things happen to us as a people because we didn't or don't work hard enough at being good and excellent. It can appear to put the accountability mainly on us to be worthy of not being discriminated against or persecuted.

What's funny is that Oprah's statement was largely endorsed by us back in the day, but that stance is increasingly falling out of favor and being denounced now.

replaced with?

I can live with it being replaced with be excellent for excellences sake.

I think we are doing young people a disservice if we let them think they can be as trifling as white people and not expect different consequences.



**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

if luck is a better deterrent...the proposed deterrent isn't likely that good

excellence should be instilled for excellence's sake not as some shield against the various -isms of the world

money != excellence and shielding yourself and not others from it isn't exellence...that's self-preservation

it's not good advice even if it is as effective as people try to make it seem...

it's a very individualistic bootstraps mentality and it's been proven ineffective at nearly every turn

.

not saying they didn't work hard or weren't talented or persistent, but something went their way at some point that easily could have not. Especially in entertainment, but in business as well.

I dont believe in excellence tho, but the idea that others do and strive to reach it make me smile (on the low).
🙋
Music is almost everything.