http://m.nydailynews.com/news/national/trans-woman-upset-tsa-scanners-flagging-body-anomaly-article-1.2369457

Do you think this situation could have been handled differently or were they legitimately just doing their jobs?

i think TSA needs to improve awareness among its employees and offer sensitivity training.

well, fuck 'training' and 'awareness'...the employees need to be held accountable and disciplined when they behave as they did here. b/c fuck that. also those machines that scan bodies a certain way depending on gender need to be recalibrated so trans ppl don't have to deal w/such unnecessary drama.

Worse than the DMV

after seeing what was obviously her penis, why did they need to make it a big deal? They could've just said, there was an issue we just need to run you through the scanner once more. They didn't have to get into drawn out explanations or go out their way to keep reasserting her biological sex. Like, on the whole, this whole scenario just strikes me as rude and unnecessary. It didn't have to escalate to that point.

it shouldn't be that tough to figure out

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

From what I gathered, she went through a scanner that was calibrated for folks born with XX chromosomes. They were not expecting a penis to show up on the scan.

Despite how she chooses to live her life, she was still born with XY chromosomes and she should have gone through the scanner for folks with XY chromosomes.


Could they have been more delicate? Yes.
Should she have said something prior to going through the scanner? IMO, Absolutely.

that going through a full body scanner should be standard operating procedure. Why is it important to know what the gender of a person traveling by airplane is?

SHITS STELLAR!!!

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

in any case, fuck full body scans and the fuckin TSA

*Mega Man Menu Sound* as sTSA, holla at nutsack fam

also, you seem to not be well versed on chromosomes if you think that a. male and female correspond 100% to XX/XY

that there no other variations of that pair beyond XX/XY

and that XX/XY always present with the external features the scanner detects.

this is why the TSA agents were poorly trained.

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

Two Transportation Security Administration screeners have been fired after conspiring to grope attractive men at Denver International Airport, Denver police said.

Here's how police say the scheme worked: When the male TSA officer noticed a man he found attractive, he would alert a female TSA officer.

The female officer would then tell the screening machine that a female passenger -- not a male -- was walking through. And that information would trigger a machine to register an anomaly in the groin area, prompting the male TSA officer to pat down the passenger, police said, citing a TSA investigation.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/04/15/travel/tsa-patdown-firings/

her ID still says woman so when it scanned her, it detected something in her pants that shouldn't be. She explained the issue and they asked her to go back through for male detection and she said no, then refused to answer questions about her gender (fine), but I don't see the issue here.

It's not like TSA was discriminating or trying to embarrass her by going through other scanner.
That is just what was required in order to do their job.

What did she want? For her to just skate through without being checked because she fits into a grey area?

who don't fit the description of simply man/woman then they're not only dumb, but poorly and inadequately trained.


www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

by having her go through the machine with a male calibration (I don't quite understand the logistics of all this. I too assumed there was only one machine. But maybe there are two?)

She refused. Why would she refuse such a simple and reasonable request?

if simply going through the "male" calibration fixes it, why have a female calibration at all?

there's what you want her to undergo, and there's the facts of the situation.

they're different.

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

I don't know if it really exists, how it works, or why it exist?

I'm just going off what the article said. From the article it seems like she went through the female calibration and they spotted an "anomaly" (aka a penis) that had to be investigated.

She then told them she was born a man. They say okay, run through the thing under the male calibration. She refuses and cries and tweets.

Does that seem like a reasonable response from her?

o...k....

I've seen people post stories here about being in tears or almost in tears about things far less traumatic than being held up 40 minutes by security.

if a penis on someone who they don't expect to have a penis gums up the works, then the system is broken and the employees are morons.

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

I'm not sure how she refused to answer questions about her gender

>“That’s my penis,” she bluntly told a male TSA agent, explaining that she was transgender.

that's the answer.

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

she's trans?

in a false penis?

if they cannot tell a penis from a bag of drugs then they're fucked.

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

if the system can't handle this, what the fuck can it handle?

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

we are in a post 9/11 world

& misgendering someone is REALLY important now

the TSA does

you know, the one you've seen every time you go to the airport.

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

things coulda went down differently.

maybe I am not aware on how they work but it could not have been more than what 5 or 6 inches (more than likely smaller)and would/should appear as pretty much a tumor no?
thee is no metal in it or anything like that i'm missing something here

If you have the wherewithal, during distress, to take a selfie of your own crying face, I have a hard time trusting your portrayed emotional state.

>If you have the wherewithal, during distress, to take a
>selfie of your own crying face, I have a hard time trusting
>your portrayed emotional state.

but the TSA ain't got no bodycams bruh!

>If you have the wherewithal, during distress, to take a
>selfie of your own crying face, I have a hard time trusting
>your portrayed emotional state.

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

>If you have the wherewithal, during distress, to take a
>selfie of your own crying face, I have a hard time trusting
>your portrayed emotional state.

Other than chuckles from the class clown brigade, what do you gain by misgendering here? And what would you lose if you recognize the woman's gender as she wishes?

To argue. Great passion tho!

Especially since you don't care? Just for the giggles, I guess. Okay.

Is that ok with you?

This is me posting.

I'm asking you what you gain when you disrespect this woman by misgendering her. You seem to be in it just for the lulz. I ask bc I'm curious. Your avoidance of the question can mean several things - I'll just take it to mean what I want.

>This is me posting.
>
>I'm asking you what you gain when you disrespect this woman by
>misgendering her. You seem to be in it just for the lulz. I
>ask bc I'm curious. Your avoidance of the question can mean
>several things - I'll just take it to mean what I want.

because s/he has a penis, they (the airport folks) seem to want to recognize s/he as a man and havent bought into the fact that because she wants to be called a she, they should treat her as such...one of the many challenges that this issue creates

>Other than chuckles from the class clown brigade, what do you
>gain by misgendering here? And what would you lose if you
>recognize the woman's gender as she wishes?

and get down to genetics/anatomy.

This is one of those potential situations. If different screening methods are required for men and women*, then self-identification is irrelevant.
You got a penis, you are a man for these purposes of the screening (the very limited intersex cases may be dealt with accordingly)

*Notice I said "If". I know nothing of TSA's protocol and technology and I doubt anyone here does either*

all TSA has to do is change the settings on the machines and train the staff who work the machines and perform the screenings.

easy peasy.

You mean change them to the settings for screening men?

>all TSA has to do is change the settings on the machines and
>train the staff who work the machines and perform the
>screenings.
>
>easy peasy.
>
>

and/or change the settings removing the gender classifications altogether. i guess the point is when women go through the machine will flag the result if there's extra stuff in the crotch area. and when men are scanned the result is flagged if there's extra stuff around the chest. that seems pretty silly. but whatever. the point is - if the machines have been programmed as they are now they can be programmed to correct the problem seen in this case.

all it takes is the willingness to recognize the problem and correct it.

How often is this an issue?

Folks came up with solutions to those issues as well even though they were manufactured problems.

You are proposing implementing a different screening program (which will come at some cost) for a group of people that make up an estimated 0.3% of the population (many of which probably do not have any qualms with the existing procedures).

And it's not like by not implementing this proposed new system, transgenders will be excluded from air travel or be inconvenienced in any way.
All they would have to do is stand in a machine calibrated for their birth sex (i.e. use the existing system)

I get what you mean, it's rare to see an adult, man or woman, sob in public like that because of feelings are hurt.

They is a Thesbian

something is seriously wrong with y'all btw
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

.
.
.
Speaking inspiration to your situations on Instagram @jeromejcase.

every day?

I feel like he'd get over it.

but I don't fantasize about suddenly seeing dicks come up on my nudie scanner

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

Only pat down that touched my johnson was clubs and police obviously.

'Cause that's the only way I'd see them being suspicious/oblivious to
what is obviously a penis (they see them all the time on these scans
presumably).

so when the machine detected extra stuff in the crotch region she was flagged. TSA expected that since she's a woman there wouldn't be anything extra in that region. but the machine detected...something. and then she had to explain what's going on in her crotch.

if i were a trans woman w/a penis i guess i'd opt out of the machine screening and ask for a pat-down. if i were untucked (bc maybe i don't tuck, i dunno) i might explain to the screening TSA staff member that i'm 'pre-op trans' (maybe i'm not actually 'pre' anything if i plan to keep my penis but to make the transaction easier i'd use that word).

but ugh...why should they have to go through all of this in the first place? geez.

...if the images these TSA's saw are anything remotely similar to this:

https://www.google.com/search?q=airport+scan+of+men&biw=1366&bih=667&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAWoVChMI147nnJuOyAIVyTo-Ch2rYQp5#imgrc=_

A.) an untucked penis is readily identifiable and B.) she confirmed what they were seeing bluntly.

They did a whole a bunch of extra.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Full_body_scanner#.22No_nudity.22_full-body_scanner

"In the United States, pursuant to the FAA Modernization and Reform Act of 2012, all full-body scanners operated in airports by the Transportation Security Administration must use "Automated Target Recognition" software, which replaces the picture of a nude body with the cartoon-like representation. As a result of this rule, all backscatter X-ray machines formerly in use by the Transportation Security Administration were removed from airports, since the agency said the vendor (Rapiscan) did not meet their contractual deadline to implement the software."

so i assume the machine supplied a cartoon-like image of a woman but there was something going on in the crotch. like some extra padding or meat or something otherwise unexpected. so this woman was flagged for additional screening.

Maybe the visibility of this story + her white privilege will cause protocol changes so that trans folks can fly w/out being harassed & degraded like this *crosses fingers*.

damn son, i cant keep up


does it really matter?

wonder what bin's doing?
http://i.imgur.com/phECCMp.jpg

there's always something new to learn.

Oh, What you gonnna say SoWhat? What? Huh? What?


ROTFL



.
.
.
Speaking inspiration to your situations on Instagram @jeromejcase.

because wha it hurts your feelings
go ahead
but aint nobody making shit up


cept for you and the crap you make up you want to follow wilynily
because otherwise your limited world view gets endangered

~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

pointing out that you've gone out of your way to label someone incorrectly isnt "making dumb stuff up" if you're any sort of intelligent

This kinda shit happens all the time. All you need is one fucked up TSA agent to be extra and detain you for hours as a "security" precaution.
How is it a TSA agent, who screens hundreds of people a day, hasn't come across someone tucking or packing before? With that volume of people it can't be that unusual.

___________________________________________________________


DJTB YOMM

I had no idea that the body scans were calibrated differently based on if the subject has male or female genitals. My guess is most people didn't know that because no TSA agent ever tells you that before you're scanned. They just send you on through.
So after they determined that they needed to use the calibration for male for this person, why did the agent need to specially tell her to go through the male calibration or else? Why not just send her through the machine again and not tell her shit, like they do everyone else who needs to be scanned twice, which happens frequently. I think they did that specifically to humiliate her.


____________________________________________


DJTB YOMM

>I had no idea that the body scans were calibrated differently
>based on if the subject has male or female genitals. My guess
>is most people didn't know that because no TSA agent ever
>tells you that before you're scanned. They just send you on
>through.
> So after they determined that they needed to use the
>calibration for male for this person, why did the agent need
>to specially tell her to go through the male calibration or
>else? Why not just send her through the machine again and not
>tell her shit, like they do everyone else who needs to be
>scanned twice, which happens frequently. I think they did that
>specifically to humiliate her.




~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

but they were surprised by the admission of the penis

so it's not like they were silently going to say...


"hmmm, crotch anomaly...let's assume it's a penis and KIM"

once that discussion was had...it's kinda assumed that any request to go back through is going to be offensive

i think this is another lose-lose that really isn't that big a deal in the end

>i think this is another lose-lose that really isn't that big a
>deal in the end

especially b/c these incidents don't occur in a vacuum. many trans ppl fight this same fight daily - to be recognized as the person they are. this may seem like it's not a big deal but the aggregate of all of the 'little' incidents like this that a trans person may experience can be really rough. like death by a thousand cuts.

i mean...

no shit

my point is it shouldn't be...

it sucks being different...no amount of social acceptance is going to make gender dysphoria humiliation free

humiliating them. LOL.

we are the assholes here. not them. it's our fault that they deal w/this humiliation. we choose to humiliate them for our own reasons. and none of those reasons are valid.

unacceptable, even unconscionable. When has the fact that things will never be perfect and 100% discrimination free stopped anyone from demand better treatment?
No one should be told to expect and accept discrimination.

___________________________________________________________


DJTB YOMM

That is unless you consider different screening procedures for males and females to be discriminatory.

They weren't preventing her from traveling. They weren't even really making it more difficult.

They simply wanted her to go through the machine again calibrated to deal with mass in the pelvic region.
Is that such a big deal? It sounds like a very logical request to me.

Then again I could be adding my own twist to the story and there may have been more going on.
But from the article, it seems like the situation was almost as simple as that

It was a response to MR, not the OP.

___________________________________________________________


DJTB YOMM

did she keep it in a jar or something?

She didn't have gender re-assignment surgery, so she still has her penis.

was simplified b/c our educators and caretakers either weren't equipped to teach us the more complex truth or weren't prepared to accept the complexities themselves.

the full truth is some women have a penis and some men have a vagina. and some ppl have both a penis and a vagina. and some ppl don't have either. and some women who were born w/a penis now have a vagina. and some men who were born w/a vagina now have a penis. and this is still a bit of a simplification of the truth.

so yes, this woman has a penis. there are relatively few women in the world who have a penis but they exist.

And I'm asking that as someone in agreement with 95% of what you're typing, but I still hold to the notion that one is ultimately what their chromosomes say they are. So if one is XY with a vagina ok I get it and likewise if one is XX with a penis, but outside of that... I'm not sure what's going on there.

So for me it's easier to understand this person plight if she's genetically a woman who was born with a penis and is being harassed or vice versa.

https://quizlet.com/35491178/ib140-sexual-differentiation-sex-gender-flash-cards/

solely from the intersex card

intersex - the cause in most cases of true gonadal intersex is unknown
- 46:XX karyotype in 70%
- 46:XY karyotype in 10%
- 46: XX/46:XY karyotype mosaicism in 20%
- 46:XX: aberrant recombinations result in X chromosomes carrying SRY, resulting in XX "males"
- 46:XY: aberrant recombinations result in Y chromosomes that have lost SRY, resulting in XY "females"
- typically the ovarian tissue is normal and the testicular tissue is dysgenetic. less often the opposite is true
- pregnancies with viable offspring have been reported in some 46:XX true intersex individuals
- a few cases have been documented of true intersex males who fathered children
- no documented cases of self-fertilization, as both viable eggs and sperm are not typically present in interest individuals

please look at the rest
nothing is always 100%

~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

If you have a man's chromosome's, a man's skeleton, and a man's anatomy (without diversion) -- I mean where is there room for debate?

I don't think everyone that claims transgendered necesarilly is. not saying that's the case here.

a person is transgender if they say so. period. no debate.

Just because she says she is (which isn't the best example). Some of us are men and some of us are women and sone of us are somewhere in between. What's wrong with an object being that object? I mean male and female identification is pjust as important as any other type of identity, personally I don't believe it's an arbitrary thing.

a person is transgender if they say so. Accepting it only helps trans and doesn't hurt anyone. Meanwhile rejecting the idea causes trans ppl enormous pain that need not exist.

What do you gain by refusing to identify her as she asks? What would you lose if you accept her womanhood without regard for her chromosomes?

nor what it means to be a woman, but I believe that whatever it truly is at it's core is something far greater than saying "I feel like a woman" and then taking a bunch of hormones or putting on a dress, getting surgery, to try and mimic what you see actual women possessing physically, emotionally, etc.

There is a difference between us (men and women) and sure there is a gray area and maybe this person falls into that, but to me if that's the case I don't know if calling that person a woman or man just because "they feel like one" as the case may be is the right thing.

Maybe these folks need their own classification that is neither man nor woman and if that is "transgender" at it's root then ok I can understand that. Basically why can't it be men, women, and then the folks in between (or is that it)?

>I don't know if calling that
>person a woman or man just because "they feel like one" as the
>case may be is the right thing.

what difference does it make? what happens if calling her a woman is the 'wrong thing'? who or what is hurt? who suffers if she's 'improperly' called a woman by her own choice?

oh...and plenty trans ppl DO identify as 'trans woman' or 'trans man'. some identify other ways. and there are also intersexed ppl who identify as such.

But I think it's important for folks to have an identity that lends itself to them feeling understood and I don't think the current approach really lends itself to that (it still appears to be a very binary approach which doesn't seem adequate) -- so I guess in light of that statement I think it hurts the transgendered by not giving them and those who are not transgendered a sort of common point of reference.

>But I think it's important for folks to have an identity that
>lends itself to them feeling understood

word. and they have those.

and I don't think the
>current approach really lends itself to that (it still
>appears to be a very binary approach which doesn't seem
>adequate)

i dunno what this means.

some trans ppl identify as 'man' or 'woman'. some as 'trans man' or 'trans woman'. and some use even others. generally it's best for us to follow THEIR lead. and to identify them using whatever term or terms THEY prefer. it doesn't help them for us to force them to use some identifier that makes US feel more comfortable.

-- so I guess in light of that statement I think it
>hurts the transgendered by not giving them and those who are
>not transgendered a sort of common point of reference.

i dunno that we need a common point of reference given what i said above - we should follow THEIR lead.

the point I was trying to make is that if one is transgender then to just say "I'm a man" or "I'm a woman" maybe isn't quite accurate enough given whatever the circumstances may be? We likely don't agree on that, but that hopefully better clarifies what I was getting at.

the scanner doesn't really calibrate for men/women

it calibrates for male/female

at this point we really have little to no need for the men/women distinction when it comes these types of things...especially when the anatomical differences are what's important

smh...sensitivity training will be great but people still won't get it...and even when they do...people will still be easily offended and hypersensitive

it's like we keep adding complexities to shit we already have a clusterfuck of cogntive dissonance around

hypersensitive or easily offended. i think they're properly offended by these incidents. and the onus should be on TSA and others to be sensitive to these ppl's concerns.

this was a cut...

when you start treating death like the paper cut...

yes, it's an empathy-inducing hypersensitivity

but still hypersensitive

but feel free to continue to debate things we essentially agree on despite having different expectations for reasonable social interactions

b/c you think these ppl are hypersensitive and i disagree w/you.

i think they're properly offended and that all of us who humiliate these ppl are in the wrong.

it's why i keep asking ppl who insist on misgendering what they're gaining when they misgender. what is the point of it? i don't see it.

already complex issues.

that's life. that's ppl. we're complex. it can be frustrating especially for ppl like us who like to think we're on the right side of everything and have it all mostly figured out and we've already rolled credits are all up in the happily-ever-after when it comes to taking stances on key social issues. we're progressive and of that. so i think when we have to learn new info that challenges some of our previously-held right and reasonable stances it's like...UGH. we want to reject that stuff. b/c we already figured it all out. and now we learn that maybe we didn't know as much as we thought. and we get frustrated and want the complexities to just END b/c we've already done the hard work and we're already more right than our parents and other elders so who are these new ppl to come along and tell us we're wrong or we don't know what we know we know? it's too much!

i'm speaking for me b/c i've experienced this pretty often - especially when it comes to queer issues. i was a queer political warrior in the 90s. i did the work and helped shape minds and get ppl right about queer theoretical shit but in recent years these young whipper-snappers are re-examining some of the theories we created in the 90s and they're forging their own paths and won't just walk the roads we paved for them. and it's like - HOW DARE THEY? b/c don't they know *i'm* one of the good ones?? i'm an ally! i'm on their side! they can't challenge ME!! LOL.

anyway, i have to tell myself that life is about learning (if i'm lucky) and this is part of the process. new complexities. new ideas that challenge the old ones. even old ones w/which *i'm* comfortable. i can resist all of this change if i want but then the world will pass me by. which might be okay too. when i'm ready i see myself sitting on a porch in a rocking chair and watching it all.

i think sometimes some layers need to be stripped

i think some things come standard with misunderstandings

i think the distinction should be emphasized between gender and sex but i think sometimes we in our attempts to correct or take offense to reasonable mistakes doesn't help

male/female should be used in this case...that might still have caused humiliation...anyone who suffers gender dysmorphia and hasn't opted for the operations is likely due some misunderstandings...some of which will be humiliating no matter how socially sensitive one is

i feel like those who have suffered 1000 cuts have a challenge to not be offended by those moments and those that do make misguided assumptions to be more understanding of why these situations could be offensive

i understand these things don't happen in a vaccuum but that's just social interactions...anything that makes you different can present awkward scenarios

if she was a cis-woman and just happened to have a real flapjacky FUPA...she'd still likely be offended lol

>i think the distinction should be emphasized between gender
>and sex but i think sometimes we in our attempts to correct or
>take offense to reasonable mistakes doesn't help

i think it's fine to correct and offense may even be appropriate depending on the context. sometimes ppl offend even when they don't mean to do so - that's when correction is needed. i understand it's frustrating to be corrected when one is actually trying to be sensitive and not offensive. but that's where empathy comes in. i'm fine w/being corrected by trans ppl when i say the wrong thing. i prefer it when i'm corrected w/patience and some understanding - and that's usually what i get possibly b/c i don't present as someone who's bent on disrespect.

>male/female should be used in this case...that might still
>have caused humiliation...anyone who suffers gender dysmorphia

i think gender dysmorphia should be removed from the DSM as a disorder b/c it unnecessarily stigmatizes trans. i hope we see that day soon - like w/the DSM6.

>and hasn't opted for the operations is likely due some
>misunderstandings...some of which will be humiliating no
>matter how socially sensitive one is

again...none of that is necessary. we can fix that. that's on us, not them. but yes, trans generally understand and expect some level of hurt from ppl who misunderstand them and their issues.

>i feel like those who have suffered 1000 cuts have a challenge
>to not be offended by those moments and those that do make
>misguided assumptions to be more understanding of why these
>situations could be offensive

nah. i think those of us who do the cutting have the duty to not cut.

>i understand these things don't happen in a vaccuum but that's
>just social interactions...anything that makes you different
>can present awkward scenarios

yes. and when those scenarios arise that's when correction is needed. i'm quite sure trans decide when and where to correct and when to let go. i do that as a gay man - just the other day a lawyer made an offensive, homophobic, off-the-cuff statement to me probably b/c he doesn't know i'm gay. i didn't correct him in that moment b/c it wasn't worth it - he's not important enough to me that i felt the need to tell him i was offended and to address the offensiveness of his statement. i moved on. however, that lawyer i just mentioned made that offensive joke in the presence of yet another lawyer who'd previously told me an offensive gay joke. i handled that guy in THAT moment b/c i like him (and he's handsome and i wanted to feel him out to see if maybe i have a shot w/him) so i corrected him. he took it in stride and we're cool. and i suspect he may have told that first lawyer what's up after the 3 of us parted - b/c i heard him wince when that first lawyer made the offensive statement. LOL. anyway, i'm sure trans do the same - pick their battles.

>if she was a cis-woman and just happened to have a real
>flapjacky FUPA...she'd still likely be offended lol

she might be and rightfully so.

>it's like we keep adding complexities to shit we already have
>a clusterfuck of cogntive dissonance around

comes up with a new way to 'self-identify'? every time someone comes up with a new word or concept should TSA (and the public at large) be expected to adjust accordingly to satisfy each individual and case? where do we draw the line? or do we draw the line?

accommodations for their wheel chairs. It's really too much to ask.

___________________________________________________________


DJTB YOMM

even though i mostly agree with the need for society to be more accommodating i do think it's reasonable for misunderstandings like the one above to be within the range of expected

civil rights?

I know I wouldnt.

And as for his concern - it's not valid. There is no such thing as a slippery slope. And if there is that's no reason to mistreat a group of ppl - bc others who are also mistreated might have to be accommodated in the future. It's an argument made by conservatives and other reactionary folks who are resistant to change.

a question...how far do we go with the accommodations? if a system is put into place that seems to cover all the bases, and then a new description comes up the next day, do we go back to the drawing board?

>civil rights?
>
>I know I wouldnt.
>
>And as for his concern - it's not valid. There is no such
>thing as a slippery slope. And if there is that's no reason to
>mistreat a group of ppl - bc others who are also mistreated
>might have to be accommodated in the future. It's an argument
>made by conservatives and other reactionary folks who are
>resistant to change.

Worry about those has no bearing on the current discussion.

to assume that it all simply boils down to... "self identification"
If people could simply stop being trans, like they could change their trans-ness by simply taking off a bra or timbs, they wouldn't be killing themselves and suffering like they do when they are forced to conform to an assigned gender.
We used to think that gay folks could just stop being gay if they wanted to. Most reasonable people don't believe that anymore.
Most trans-people I know don't feel like it is a choice. They are trans no matter if they dress outwardly with society requirements or against it.

I'd liken it to being black and putting on a dashiki. Without the dashiki you're still black. You express your blackness through your outward appearance. If someone said you couldn't wear a dahsiki in the airport becaus it was too black, obviously that's discriminatory and a problem.

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DJTB YOMM

why not go along with s/he if they choose to identify themselves as X or Y? who will it hurt? thats why i brought up that issue

Having to suppress who you are, your agency, the ability to own yourself for fear of violence and discrimination is damaging to the psyche, anyone's psyche. Example: A Jew who passes for a German during ww2 to survive doesn't come out exactly peaches on the other side, even though the only thing separated many Eastern European Jews from Germans was not blood, but an invisible religious belief. Most shared family trees shared.
No agency, no ability to self determine the most basic aspects of yourself is damaging. If anyone should understand this its black folks.

The violence against trans people is so high that most people can't fathom that such a small population could sustain so much death and still keep on fighting. That should tell you right there, it ain't as simple as sucking it up and putting on some timbs.

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DJTB YOMM

however a trans person chooses to identify' and the answer is it wont hurt anyone, which i get...and im not for any mistreatment of anyone...im just learning and find the dialog and perspectives interesting

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DJTB YOMM

Specifically the comparison was about the claimed impossibility of accommodating trans which sounds like arguments made against accommodating the disabled. We see how that went - the disabled are increasingly accommodated and the world is still turning. The same can happen with trans. We can survive their accomodation.

What sense does it make to create extra accommodations?

It would be nonsensical to engineer a new setting or have a separate screening tool when there is an easy, straightforward solution.

But I'm open to changing my opinion on things. And actually have changed my thoughts based off okp.

I don't think what I said was out of line. But you dismiss it like it is crazy talk.

I'll try, I guess.

But that issue was discussed above - they can calibrate the machines so they don't screen by gender or sex, they can train TSA screening staff to be more sensitive to the concerns of trans who will be screened by the machines or otherwise. None of it is difficult - TSA just needs the will to address the problem.

I can't tell if TSA acted inappropriately here from the article. But if the trans distinction is an issue that they may run into, they need procedures to deal with it respectfully.

But I believe accommodations should be made if they are reasonable.
We're over here talking about calibration like we know what the hell we're talking about.

If it's as easy as you say it is, then sure, do it. Fix the machines to deal with these cases.

But if it is not so simple, why invest so much effort (and money) in something that be resolved with existing technology?

In this situation maybe they could be more discreet. Or hell, don't tell her anything. Just tell her go through the machine again (no explanation necessary).
Everyone here had no idea the screen differently for men and women. Why tell her?

impossible to accommodate them because...

there are a million varieties of disability... there are just too many types for everyone to expect to be accommodated.

what if we have to accommodate something crazy and extra... like dogs where they don't belong, like in a restaurant!

It would cost too much... billions of dollars even!

It was silly to accommodate them because aren't enough of them to warrant such a change.

If we change shit for the disabled who's next...
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DJTB YOMM

mind you, I haven't read the story in question

but the replies are wild

I understand her taking offense. She is a woman why must she go through procedures setup for a man.

But as someone said above. This is a male/female issue, not man/woman.

A fat person can self identify as a slim person. But they are still going to have to buy two tickets on the airplane.
Not for discriminatory reasons or in order to humiliate them.
It is simply mechanical. That is how the machines/seats work.