I don't get it.

Blacks are THE most economically disenfranchised people in the USA...so why pretend to care about those who DO steal opportunities from people who are already legal citizens of the country.

It seems like a clear and obvious impact that illegals competing for low wages and unskilled labor takes the ability for the already marginalized to continue to be overlooked for opportunities to be filled.

I'm not trying to relegate blacks to low-skilled and low wage work, but any money in the community's pockets is better than nothing.

lets also be honest, black immigrants can't just walk across the border. They have to take planes to get here. Boats dont even work. 70% of the illegal immigrants exploited the fact that they could just walk across the border because they lived next door.

>I don't get it.

end of post.


*skatin' the rings of saturn*


..and miles to go before i sleep...

>>I don't get it.
>
>end of post.
>
>
>*skatin' the rings of saturn*
>
>
>..and miles to go before i sleep...

*exits*
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

of course you don't get it.

some of us, though, think injustice anywhere is a treat to justice everywhere.

some of us think that anything that chips away from YT's power is good.

so don't worry about it.

convseratives never understand these things anyway.

Illegal immigration is NOT an issue that matters to black people by and large.

all poor ppl have more in common than they do not.

any effort to pit minorities against one another is a pretty transparent conservative tactic.

of course, YOU don't want Black ppl to support other poor ppl.

Put things in priorities.

Illegal immigrants already are not supposed to be here.

I'm in favor of reforming the citizenship pathway and making it more transparent and streamlined...but illegal immigrants deserve to get in the back of every line in terms of economic empowerment.

clearly, rich ppl are kicking poor ppl's ass on every front.

anything that pits poor ppl against one another is Fox News bullshit.

i don't care if poor ppl came down from Mars.

if they are poor, we need to support their interest. Because all poor ppl
should be united, unless they want to remain powerless.

take the last word if you want it.

your post is dumb.

Remember...illegals aren't even supposed to be here.

So I'm trying to advocate getting my house in order before anyone else tries to get over on people who look like me.

now, okp is pretty hard left so they support them but the majority of blacks aren't supporting illegals and their rights...

IMO its more so a stance most rich white liberals take. The average black person isn't a fan of that shit.

>now, okp is pretty hard left so they support them


OKP in no way represents the "far left."
if it did, ppl on would be openly advocating for socialism,
complete legalization of all drugs, a severe drop in our military budget, a severe drop in the number of armed cops in our neighborhoods, a more aggressive strategy for slowing global warming,
and a drastic increase in the minimum wage.

please try again.

when we discuss politics?

It's like 2 or 3 liberal posters that post regularly vs. you, ThaTruth, seasoned vet, vex id, southphilly man, kwesi, Game Theory, and a host of others.


Nah.

you come off as an extremist for everything you champion. Nobody likes an extremist.

It's like dealing with a vegetarian that happens to enjoy red snapper with lemon on occasion versus a vegan that's a member of PETA.


---------------------------

"Where was the peace when we were getting shot? Where's the peace when we were getting laid out?
Where is the peace when we are in the back of ambulances? Where is the peace then?
They don't want to call for peace then.

He actually just asks ya'll questions from his pov tirelessly, relentlessly... whereas other liberal posters choose not to engage for whatever reason.

>you come off as an extremist for everything you champion.
>Nobody likes an extremist.
>

absolutely nothing i champion is "extreme."
i'm a pretty level headed dude.

just because this country (and OKP)
is more conservative than it once was,
that doesn't mean that i am now an extremist.


k, in advance, to whatever you are about to say.

>>you come off as an extremist for everything you champion.
>>Nobody likes an extremist.
>>
>
>absolutely nothing i champion is "extreme."
>i'm a pretty level headed dude.
>
>just because this country (and OKP)
>is more conservative than it once was,
>that doesn't mean that i am now an extremist.
>
>
>k, in advance, to whatever you are about to say.
>
>

I said YOU come off as an extremist, not what you champion. Whole different thing that what you're talking about.

---------------------------

"Where was the peace when we were getting shot? Where's the peace when we were getting laid out?
Where is the peace when we are in the back of ambulances? Where is the peace then?
They don't want to call for peace then.

I thought he was that new-agey, fitness guru, kinda fine white guy? Am I getting him mixed up with someone else?

i may be mixed up.

Nobody agree's with him cause he is an extremist.

and are quick to say fuck you or fuck off...

>and are quick to say fuck you or fuck off...
>


and i didn't do the SoWhat heel turn until recently.
i used to reason with everybody, all the time.

remember when i posted as Joe Corn Mo?
and i used to patiently ask question after question
to draw ppl to my side?

how did that work out?


oh yeah. with most of the board agreeing with you ppl.

i've been posting like an asshole for like a month, tops.

you have turned into sowhat's mini me... congrats


the country hasn't turned more conservative, this place hasn't turned more conservative..

you just focus more attention on those who don't agree with you. You listed 5 or 6 people and fucked up on 1 or 2 of them... so nah, maybe it's time to try a new angle instead of crying about 4 or 5 guys on here who don't share your views on some things.

wtf is this? 1994? seen any fucking poll numbers lately? if not for regional sects and the electoral college, the right would be drowning. they still know how to play the game but they aren't winning much.

I have a feeling they can find that type or level of work -- if they want it.

Lets not pretend like blacks weren't doing these jobs decades ago....

...toilet job that black people you know can't get?




>I don't get it.
>
>Blacks are THE most economically disenfranchised people in the
>USA...so why pretend to care about those who DO steal
>opportunities from people who are already legal citizens of
>the country.
>
>It seems like a clear and obvious impact that illegals
>competing for low wages and unskilled labor takes the ability
>for the already marginalized to continue to be overlooked for
>opportunities to be filled.
>
>I'm not trying to relegate blacks to low-skilled and low wage
>work, but any money in the community's pockets is better than
>nothing.
>
>lets also be honest, black immigrants can't just walk across
>the border. They have to take planes to get here. Boats dont
>even work. 70% of the illegal immigrants exploited the fact
>that they could just walk across the border because they lived
>next door.
>
>


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

Movies I need y'all bastids to see so we can discuss:

Five Star - https://goo.gl/jBHbVv
Appropriate Behavior - http://goo.gl/isCzTM
Ma

If illegals drag down wage floors then there are that many more people who aren't able to find the same unskilled labor.

that's not smart for minorities to do.
since, you know, we are all in the minority.

but this is a wonderful Fox News talking point.

good luck with it.

These hispanic immigrants are aspirational white supremacists themselves when it comes to integration in society by and large.

But i'm not even trying to go that deep.

I'm saying that helping illegals does not help the black community at all.

**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

Movies I need y'all bastids to see so we can discuss:

Five Star - https://goo.gl/jBHbVv
Appropriate Behavior - http://goo.gl/isCzTM
Ma

Blacks need to start looking out for their economic interests by taking stances against demographics who are consistently getting more support than they are.

**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

Movies I need y'all bastids to see so we can discuss:

Five Star - https://goo.gl/jBHbVv
Appropriate Behavior - http://goo.gl/isCzTM
Ma

Get your singular opposition of white power out of your head.

Other groups of people actively don't want to see black americans do well either.

Black needs should matter more than people who shouldn't even be in the US

My opposition is to those who have the power. They are mostly white. Illegal Aliens don't have power in this country.


>Get your singular opposition of white power out of your
>head.
>
>Other groups of people actively don't want to see black
>americans do well either.
>
>Black needs should matter more than people who shouldn't even
>be in the US


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

Movies I need y'all bastids to see so we can discuss:

Five Star - https://goo.gl/jBHbVv
Appropriate Behavior - http://goo.gl/isCzTM
Ma

so while we are happy to see whites lose power I still think we have to recognize illegals are outing in WORK and reproducing at an amazing rate.

Our we allies or will they move ahead of us and keep us out of the loop?

I know what I see in Charlotte and it's a huge influx of illegals on construction sites. They are low balling construction jobs and since we don't know spanish we aren't getting picked to work with a Mexican crew.

Construction work is huge for blacks too due to a lack of background checks.

I still see blacks working for the city and see us on construction sites but the numbers are much lower.

***
I'm tryna be better off, not better than...

because it's guys like Trump (and his peers) who actually employ these same undocumented workers. They will pay them as little as they can.

https://www.law.umaryland.edu/marshall/usccr/documents/cr12im2010.pdf

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=123811962

All that altruism will bite you in the ass.

Most of those congressmen are connected to people that hire illegals i.e. the Koch bros or those like them.

That ties into the NPR piece which mentions holding employers more accountable. The problem with that is it's low level business owners who will bear the brunt.

You rant and rave about representation until theres a body of research that contradicts your views?

Come on now...at least try to hide your trolling

That's a document telling them what they already know and have known and they are not concerned because undocumented workers are one of the places where their money is coming from.

All these emotional appeals come at the expense of someone else who followed the rules

It's always split when it comes to the opinions. I dont think it is wrong you think otherwise. You have a right to an opinion

That was grown-folk posting right dere.

It sounds like you're just trying to support skirting the law because you dont care about anyone else who follows the rules.

Don't try to dodge culpability here.

It took a lot of us time to become legal. For example, my homie who was illegal came here in 98. All through high school he tried to become legal. Went to the military and the military promised to make him legal. Took him 10 years but finally got legal. We all start somewhere so I can't knock someone who did the same thing my family went through. We all come to the states for the idea and a shot at the American dream. Especially when it becomes unsafe in our home country whether by said countries politics or American involvement.

were the one who made it then, too?

This is a cheap appeal if you ask me, and it also ignores a long history of people who came to this country illegally or semi-legally and produced generations of productive Americans.

This whole "pull yourself up" trope doesn't address real and present issues of economic disparities in the black community.

Why are you so afraid to discuss black economics.

Stop widening the pie.

i don't see poor black people sitting in front of Home Depot waiting to do manual labor at a discount.

and minimum wage paying retail/restaurant/hospital jobs are there for people that want to do them. sure, there is competition for low skill/low education/low wage jobs but those jobs are out there. at least in Baltimore they are.

i've run into far too many young people that don't wanna do that type of work even though they don't have the credential to do much else.

and i run into too many people that would rather get by doing all kinds of hustles than take what they see as a menial job.




***
I'm tryna be better off, not better than...

https://www.law.umaryland.edu/marshall/usccr/documents/cr12im2010.pdf

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=123811962

All that altruism will bite you in the ass.

Black Americans have plenty of avenues to aim higher and many do.

But you've still got 60% of black Americans with a high school diploma or less. And you still have a significant portion (though not all) of these unskilled jobs that no one would do in the black community. For every small factory and hotel, there's a bunch of day labor gigs and shit like that.

I think you're trying to attack the problem in a way that's ultimately unproductive and, even if you don't agree with that, much more out of the black community's control than improving their own standards and standing.

to us so **shrugs**

Black citizens keep getting marginalized and you seem content with it because they do the work with a smile on their face

I don't encounter niggas who can't find jobs
I encounter niggas who don't want to do certain jobs

If i showed proof, you all would ignore it anyways saying that "blacks just dont want to do it"

People fill opportunities. The problem is that when you're an illegal, theres no legal incentive to pay you above board with acceptable wages.

you have no proof...

Theres like 15 million illegal immigrants and they're mostly all working. Those jobs are coming from SOMEWHERE

I mean I spent 3 minutes and found this.
http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2015/06/01/does-immigration-suppress-wages-its-not-so-simple/


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

Movies I need y'all bastids to see so we can discuss:

Five Star - https://goo.gl/jBHbVv
Appropriate Behavior - http://goo.gl/isCzTM
Ma

i see black people working retail jobs, in restaurants, as security guards, in hospitals (peace to the CNA/GNA chicks), and in warehouses.

ride the bus or train in the city and you see black people wearing uniforms on their way to or from work.

i can't quote a stat but i can tell you who i see in this town doing entry level work.




***
I'm tryna be better off, not better than...

I tend to think the whole "THEY'RE TAKING OUR JAHBS!!" thing is a red herring.

when illegals were arrested from McDonalds restaurants, the workers that replaced them were Black and White.

Those were our jerbs.

http://www.whyimcray.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/humans_jerbs.jpg


---------------------------

"Where was the peace when we were getting shot? Where's the peace when we were getting laid out?
Where is the peace when we are in the back of ambulances? Where is the peace then?
They don't want to call for peace then.

https://www.law.umaryland.edu/marshall/usccr/documents/cr12im2010.pdf

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=123811962

All that altruism will bite you in the ass.

because how does someone who is an undocumented resident have any power to take any job from any person? Meaning the poor can't take anything. They are not "taking" job i.e. "stealing" them or whatever, but rather these companies are just trying to marginalize everyone else.

Low wages that they take is money that will go towards people who are already citizens:

1. People who would get legal wages
2. people who would get legal protections in employment
3. people who wouldn't be turned onto illegal forms of income

You're feeling some kind of way about them being given jobs when it's the people offering the jobs that are more accountable.

Those who provide the jobs to undocumented workers are the problem.

The SUPPLY of illegal immigrants is a problem. You can't keep shifting blame. Focus on this specific point.

Because at least if there werent so many, the US could then just point to racist hiring practices.

But now we have people who aren't even legal residents stealing from the descendants of people who built the country while getting them to fight on their own behalf.

Citizenship has to mean something to all Americans.

Undocumented immigrants are not the problem when it comes to jobs the employers are IMO. I do however think that our borders should be more secure but they aren't because big business WANTS cheap labor. If they can fly a drone up a suspected terrorists ass then they can patrol the border 24/7 if they wanted to. Relatively cheaply at that.

There's big money in destabilizing economies e.g. Mexico and big money in smuggling people across the borders of countries that have been destabilized so to focus on the product and not the business is myopic it seems.

>The SUPPLY of illegal immigrants is a problem. You can't keep
>shifting blame. Focus on this specific point.

My point is the same people that have you focused on the supply ARE THOSE PROFITING FROM THE SUPPLY in some way and that is who the focus should be on.

>Because at least if there werent so many, the US could then
>just point to racist hiring practices.

If there weren't so many the US would keep on exploiting poor people some other way.

>But now we have people who aren't even legal residents
>stealing from the descendants of people who built the country
>while getting them to fight on their own behalf.

They do not have the power to steal jobs. Employers have the power to give them jobs and those before us played a role in building America, but so did the ancestors of many folks trying to cross into the country.

>
>Citizenship has to mean something to all Americans.
but it doesn't -- never has never will. Many of us are paper citizens.

Are you not seeing the argument here?

SOMEONE is paying them for work citizens could be doing.

The people choosing undocumented workers over American workers are the problem. That's as simple as I can say it.

since AZ, NM, and TX are ground zero for illegal immigrants you see more of them in low paying jobs, hanging out in the parking lots of Lowes or Home Depot, or by any nursery.

Hit pretty much any fast food joint in Scottsdale from middle class south Scotts all the way up to snooty nose in the air pinky drinking paid in full north Scottsdale. Walk in the joint and you'll see nothing but Mexicans. The handful that can speak English a bit work the registers and drive thru, the rest work in the back on the grill.

Sheriff Joe Arpaio did some raids a while back in Scottsdale. They arrested illegals working there under stolen identities.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/03/26/people-arrested-immigration-raids-arizona-mcdonalds/

One of the restaurants raided was directly across the street from my job. We used to walk there for lunch all the time. Before the raid, everyone working there was Mexican and older. After the raid it was Black and White teenagers and twenty-somethings working there.

Those were jobs that the citizens had a right to work, not the illegals.


---------------------------

"Where was the peace when we were getting shot? Where's the peace when we were getting laid out?
Where is the peace when we are in the back of ambulances? Where is the peace then?
They don't want to call for peace then.

Like McDonald's doesn't have the cash to do background check?

I'm talking about illegal immigrants themselves. You don't get to talk about the price of tea in argentina just to try and make a point

>Like McDonald's doesn't have the cash to background check?

"Deputies also searched a mansion in the tony Phoenix suburb of Paradise Valley owned by Richard Coulston, who owns the restaurants, Arpaio said. Coulston was not arrested."

Those weren't corporate McDonalds locations, they were franchises. They raided the owner's home as well. AZ has laws in place that will shut down businesses for knowingly hiring illegals.


---------------------------

"Where was the peace when we were getting shot? Where's the peace when we were getting laid out?
Where is the peace when we are in the back of ambulances? Where is the peace then?
They don't want to call for peace then.

If that was something done across the board then I believe you'd see much of the issue diminish. Then we could focus on central and south american gangs growing in strength due to there not being any jobs for undocumented workers.

We GET IT!
*****************************************
. . . If I have something to say when there is a reason involved, I am perfectly willing to talk. Katherine Hepburn

You wanna claim we're not a monolith but will quote stats on black unemployment and economic participation

Now I'm mad. You just made me ease my monthly "nigga" allotment on your trifling horseshit

is that you are suggesting we play the same game the dominant paradigm uses against us

lately ive been thinking about intersectionality and how it can be a tool of power

anyway.

http://board.okayplayer.com/okp.php?az=show_topic&forum=4&topic_id=12924429&mesg_id=12924429&page=

Again, blacks should care about illegal immigrants, why?

Illegal immigration has nothing to do with that

http://www.theroot.com/articles/culture/2014/11/does_immigration_impact_black_unemployment.html

and he isn't black or latino

get it straight.

---------------------------

"Where was the peace when we were getting shot? Where's the peace when we were getting laid out?
Where is the peace when we are in the back of ambulances? Where is the peace then?
They don't want to call for peace then.

https://www.law.umaryland.edu/marshall/usccr/documents/cr12im2010.pdf

you guys asked for an example and he gave you one he witnessed with his own 2 eyes...

what next? who owns the land the McD's is on?

go to any kitchen in a,large city like NYC, LA, Chicago and you will see a shit load of illegals in the back.

2003 Old Country Buffet in Ann Arbor = Mexicans in the kitchen

We used to go to OCB on Sunday all the time from around late 2000 until we left Mi in 2003. We stopped going for a while leading up to and after my wife gave birth, but after maybe 7-8 months the staff changed so dramatically we wondered about it out loud, and the rest of the patrons did as well.


---------------------------

"Where was the peace when we were getting shot? Where's the peace when we were getting laid out?
Where is the peace when we are in the back of ambulances? Where is the peace then?
They don't want to call for peace then.

Listen to the interview:

http://www.npr.org/player/v2/mediaPlayer.html?action=1&t=1&islist=false&id=123811962&m=123811951

http://www.npr.org/2011/05/26/136678019/high-court-upholds-arizona-employer-sanctions-law

"Under state law, if an employer knowingly hires an illegal worker, the business can be fined for the first offense, and a second offense can mean you lose the right to do business in the state."


---------------------------

"Where was the peace when we were getting shot? Where's the peace when we were getting laid out?
Where is the peace when we are in the back of ambulances? Where is the peace then?
They don't want to call for peace then.

Blacks need legal acknowledgement and pretending that doing the bidding of others will help you is disingenuous.

>so why pretend to care about those who DO steal
>opportunities from people who are already legal citizens of
>the country.

The economy is not just workers. We are all workers and consumers. Immigrants do take jobs, but their presence also makes the economy larger and therefore tends to lead to the existence of more jobs.

Immigrants buy things just like anyone else. In fact, the poor tend to run through most of their income, so one would expect their presence to be particularly valuable in the economy (not to say that immigration means poverty, just that there's a correlation).

I'm not an economist, but my understanding is that historically the presence of immigrants (legal and otherwise), has been a major element in the growth of our overall economy.

We're not talking about those with papers and documentation permitting their residence.

they use like emergency services, OK, but outside of that they tend to use many fewer government services and they pay sales tax on everything. they tend not to pay much income tax because of the low wages they make but that wouldn't change much with citizens in those same jobs; they way off from the federal income tax threshold. so basically they work and pay taxes while using minimal services. some drain.

whether illegals have any real impact ....iono, i'm sure there is some kind of study on this stuff
but just from the pure eye test
growing up i saw WAY more blacks working fast food/kitchen/busboy type jobs
those types of jobs seem to be getting filled by illegals now
i imagine convicted felons and those types are really feeling the pinch

The test works a little differently from my perspective. To me when I go to an area and see white people working those shitty fast food jobs and domestic work (like hotel housekeeping) I know the local economy isn't doing well because white folks and black folks need those jobs.

When the economy is doing well all those jobs are being done by latin immigrants.



>whether illegals have any real impact ....iono, i'm sure
>there is some kind of study on this stuff
>but just from the pure eye test
>growing up i saw WAY more blacks working fast
>food/kitchen/busboy type jobs
>those types of jobs seem to be getting filled by illegals now
>i imagine convicted felons and those types are really feeling
>the pinch


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

Movies I need y'all bastids to see so we can discuss:

Five Star - https://goo.gl/jBHbVv
Appropriate Behavior - http://goo.gl/isCzTM
Ma

http://www.bls.gov/web/empsit/cpsee_e16.htm

not sure why i would have to know the people personally
just basing it off the fact that a lot of us can't get jobs apparently
maybe it's because of illegals, maybe it's something else.
just speaking on a general shift i've noticed with those specific service type of jobs

none
poor, convicted felon, uneducated etc


not one who can't

hell i can one up you
i don't personally know a black person living under the poverty line
doesn't mean they don't exist
supposedly they make up a 3rd of our pop
and 10% of us can't find work at all

wow


***
I'm tryna be better off, not better than...

i know a decent number of black people struggling to find employment but to be fair they are all felons.

https://www.law.umaryland.edu/marshall/usccr/documents/cr12im2010.pdf

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=123811962

All that altruism will bite you in the ass.

***
I'm tryna be better off, not better than...

I think a lot of people fail to realize how this is playing out. We are so focused on turning states Blue for presidential elections we ignore unemployment numbers and wage gaps widening in Black communities.

Shit is real...

thanks for these links.

When Jo Arpaio rounded up the illegals working at those McDonalds joints, the restaurants hired Blacks and Whites that wanted those jobs. When an ENTIRE spot goes from Mexican to Black/White because of a raid, you know there's a problem.

---------------------------

"Where was the peace when we were getting shot? Where's the peace when we were getting laid out?
Where is the peace when we are in the back of ambulances? Where is the peace then?
They don't want to call for peace then.

the authors and commentators agree that the problem is exploitation of the disenfrachised w/o regard for their citizenship status, ethnicity or race. b/c as any student of American history understands, the USA has _always_ functioned w/some class of disenfranchised ppl working for outstandingly low-wages. first there were the indentured servants, then slaves, then sharecroppers, then children and now various immigrants (first they were European and East Asian and now they tend to be Central/South American or South-East Asian).

and the concern that undocumented immigrants are taking all the low-wage jobs reminds me of concerns about emancipated Blacks taking those jobs during the Reconstruction Era. same old problem is rehashed 150 yrs later but now it's been recast w/different ethnicities and races involved. but it's the same old story w/the same root - exploitation of an underclass.

anyway, to answer the question - i think it's great that for the most part Blacks ain't falling for the okey-doke and casting this new problem as a Latino vs. black thing or even a citizens vs. undocumented immigrant thing b/c none of that recasting actually gets to the root of the problem as i see it.

from the links you posted:

"To be sure, factors other than illegal immigration contribute to black unemployment. The problem cannot be solved without solving the problems of the high school dropout rate, high rates of family instability, and low job-retention rates. Moreover, >>halting illegal immigration is not a panacea even for the problem of depressed wage rates for low-skilled jobs<<."

---

"Prof. SWAIN: Its not about African-Americans, its about Americans because Latinos are hurt too. Legal Latinos, their wages are depressed. Some of them are in the same boat as African-Americans. They are being discriminated against. Its also whites with low levels of education.

Its an American problem. Its not a black problem. Black people get hurt more because of discrimination. And thats, again, thats another American problem thats not being addressed adequately."

"Mr. JEFFERSON: May I say one last thing? I just want to say that a lot of people sort of - and I get a lot of hate mail for this piece and sort of conflate, as Professor Swain said, sort of conflate being sort of have questions about immigration as being anti-Latino. And I think that thats sort of - thats a cheap argument. I dont fault illegal immigrants for wanting a better life. >>I fault employers who look at qualified African-American job applicants and say I dont want your labor<<. I want to hire somebody whos easily exploitable and to whom I can pay very, very obscenely low wages."

Because i'm not even saying citizens live great lives across the board.

I'm simply talking about the black community and employment

and i too am talking about black ppl and employment - b/c if the undocumented immigrants are removed from the job market then we will have more blacks employed and being paid unfair wages and likely being exploited by their employers in other ways.

i would not be satisfied if blacks simply take those low-wage jobs and are otherwise mistreated by their employers. that's not a victory for anyone except the employers.

anyway, the articles you linked - the writers agree that the main problem is the employers and the low wages and the exploitation. the main problem is NOT undocumented workers taking those jobs.

If there are black illegals, its only a couple hundred...and most of them probably had legal status and overstayed a visa

but my point is that black CITIZENS have legal safety and wage protections under the law...illegals do not.

>If there are black illegals, its only a couple hundred...and
>most of them probably had legal status and overstayed a visa

my homie who works in immigration law sees several blacks here w/o documents. and not all of them are here on expired visas. plenty of them came in the old fashioned way - they snuck in across a border.

>but my point is that black CITIZENS have legal safety and wage
>protections under the law...illegals do not.

right. and that's why employers exploit those undocumented immigrants - they know the undocumented are less likely to complain to various authorities about mistreatment in the workplace b/c the undocumented fear that they will face prosecution for having violated federal laws related to immigration and whatnot. employers have been playing that game for several decades now. hell, they've played that game since the country was founded! the indentured servants didn't work out b/c they either escaped or returned home and so the slaves were used. the slaves were emancipated after a blood-bath/war and so the sharecroppers and children were used. but then laws were enacted that protected the sharecroppers and children so immigrants were used. until the immigrants demanded protection too and so instead employers started hiring the undocumented immigrants. the story is always the same - exploit a disenfranchised until they overcome and then find another population to exploit. wash, rinse, repeat.

again - i'm glad that blacks have not fallen for this b/s for the most part and aren't blaming undocumented immigrants for being exploited. i would like to see us put more pressure on employers to change their ways and stop exploiting disenfranchised ppl w/low wages and other mistreatment.

The topic is the immigrants themselves.

With no supply of illegal people, its damn near impossible to exploit them.

some other population.

you want to see employers exploit blacks instead of undocumented immigrants.

i'd rather the employers don't exploit anyone.

Thats the point.

Illegals = abuse

And at least with citizens, they'll have rights.

>And at least with citizens, they'll have rights.

These other "groups" aren't rushing to our aid when SHTF so lets not be so quick to invoke populism for black economic development.

you're off your rocker.

i am talking about class warfare.
the wealthy are winning.

why do you support them?

but the employers will find a way.

which is why i'd rather see pressure put on them to end exploitation of undocumented immigrants via low wages and other mistreatment.

if the exploitation problem is fixed and employers are no longer able to pay unfair wages and mistreat employees then i expect the employers will hire more blacks which would mean the undocumented have fewer job opportunities which will mean more of 'them' will either 'go home' or 'stay home' which will mean fewer of 'them' here which will give you what you want - fewer undocumented immigrants here and more blacks employed.

Employers are already breaking the law...but so is the illegal immigrant fully knowledgeable of their status in this country.

Not to mention, black immigrants face way harder circumstances.

in the u.s. and goddamn sure in europe.

illegal immigrants don't just come from mexico, dude. god you are fucking ignorant, and the worst part you come at everyone with this comprehensive arrogance. the second to worst part is that you just this did this fucking song and dance a few months ago.

If there are black illegals, its only a couple hundred...and most of them probably had legal status and overstayed a visa

but my point is that black CITIZENS have legal safety and wage protections under the law...illegals do not.

note his attempt to just post
dumb shit again, to make it look like he had more support than he does.


spamjust wanted to point out that this reply is spam.

it was clear.

And dude is making zero mention of the outsourcing and global slave labor, which is undercutting both groups.

the economy does better when you can get the same worker at a lower wage...

and how many of us who made it to middle class or higher spend our free time with poor uneducated blacks?

I think the problem is since we don't know them... we don't empathize with them.

..and then we end up sounding like rich white libs and defend illegal immigration when it hurts our people and helps rich white people keep money in their hands and out of our people who need jobs.

like this

it hurts to hear that Blacks are under educated and underskilled but that is the sad reality...

and when they say illegals have more bargaining power shit hits home.

12 million illegals.. 13 million Black citizens... black unemployment sky high

Lets put 2 and 2 together here.

These jobs are CLEARLY there.

Why aren't black people getting these jobs?

They're the largest low wage, unskilled population...so whats going on?

https://www.law.umaryland.edu/marshall/usccr/documents/cr12im2010.pdf

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=123811962

All that altruism will bite you in the ass.

You can't have it both ways

Every other demographic stands up for themselves. Why do we have to be pawns for the people literally replacing us?

What are ya'll getting?

All this kumbayah is gonna get ya'll kumbay-canned.

If you are not a billionare,
and you are fighting against other non-billionaires...

you are on the wrong side of the current class war against the poor.

This same class war is why people who don't speak the language and aren't supposed to be here are taking these undesirable jobs from black people?

Word?

why are you supporting the wealthy
in their war against the poor?

are you a billionare?

All this "were the same" shit is helping anyone but black people

http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/411/964/9b5.jpg

or because they get to keep hiring illegals for a low wage?

they're laughing b/c if blacks and undocumented immigrants battle it out to see which population will line up to be exploited then that's a win-win for THEM at the expense of the blacks and the undocumented. they're laughing b/c the in-fighting among the disenfranchised only works out in THEIR favor to the detriment of blacks and the undocumented.

What aren't you getting?

Being a citizen matters and it should mean something.

or sharing memes about drug testing for welfare

they'll keep laughing

as if i'm the one who doesn't understand the issues raised in this post.

LOL

>Being a citizen matters and it should mean something.

to the point where you dont have to compete for the jobs they are getting
thats not what you are getting

i'd understand if you were talking about migrants like me
who are taking away skilled jobs from citizens

but we are literally talking about picking fruit
shit.... didnt we do the farm labour thing before?

it's hotel workers
kitchen workers
construction
manufacturing jobs
warehouse jobs

it's easy to say blacks should all have the education and skills so we don't have to compete with illegals but that isn't the case...

All these hardworking tales of doing the bottom feeding work just to help their families?

Well blacks are locked out of all of it.

see: above

the end.

Indigenous folks are actually more economically disenfranchised. But I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess that you don't really give a shit about facts

Secondly: Fuck you for reinforcing the same white supremacy that has negatively effected all people of color. Keep fighting other brown people and not the system that keep us ALL in subordinate positions.

Sit your ass down.

Native Americans get outright checks from the US Government...and blacks have just been told to pull their pants up and "good luck"

domestic violence rates,

and on and on and on.
you're an idiot.

See whenever we talk SPECIFICALLY about black issues, then it becomes the oppression olympics in here

>See whenever we talk SPECIFICALLY about black issues, then it
>becomes the oppression olympics in here


i side with the poor.
why do you side with the wealthy?

Black issues can't continue to be on the back burner to make you all more comfortable

..economically

then when that claim is challenged, you wanna fall back on "THIS ISN'T THE OPPRESSION OLYMPICS"

The amount of folks who benefit from casinos is very, very small.
Go do some research.
And also, STFU.

LOL

CHECKS STR8 FROM THE GUBMINT!!

pseudo Hotepians who don't read or research

enwurdz is proud fucn morons in GD

>RE: Native Americans? With casinos? And land? And holidays?
>Sit your ass down.
>
>Native Americans get outright checks from the US
>Government...

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2007/03/cherokee_perks.html

http://www.npr.org/2012/11/30/166185774/native-americans-to-soon-receive-settlement-checks

and black ppl don't have a month where our history is celebrated.

damn...them injuns is takin all the perks of us and we ain't gettin shit! they prolly got our acres and mules too!!

>http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2007/03/cherokee_perks.html

because, you know, all Natives are Cherokee... right?

>http://www.npr.org/2012/11/30/166185774/native-americans-to-soon-receive-settlement-checks

Everybody ain't gettin them checks. Everyone in my family signed up for for that settlement, only one person qualified for it: My grandmother.

Her brother didn't even qualify for it 'cause the land is in her name, not both of theirs.

fuck you for even trying to play us Natives like this.

---------------------------

"Where was the peace when we were getting shot? Where's the peace when we were getting laid out?
Where is the peace when we are in the back of ambulances? Where is the peace then?
They don't want to call for peace then.

I'm still waiting for you to try and dance even more

Remember, those Natives that got paid from the government got that money from leasing land they owned on reservations to the government for various reasons.

In parallel, Black land owners in oil rich areas also lease their land out to oil companies as well as the federal government and receive profit sharing and other monies for doing the same thing.

How do I know this???

My mother, her sister, and brother co-own their mother's piece of land in Texas (my other grandmother). Last January they entered into a lease agreement with some oil company (I'm too lazy to check right now) for drilling rights in exchange for a slice of the profit as well as money for just being on the land.

and that shit happens all over the country for oil, coal, and shit like copper and iron.

Try again.

---------------------------

"Where was the peace when we were getting shot? Where's the peace when we were getting laid out?
Where is the peace when we are in the back of ambulances? Where is the peace then?
They don't want to call for peace then.

Again, these jobs shouldn't even be filled by illegal immigrants, so lets get that clear.

>Sit your ass down.
>
>Native Americans get outright checks from the US
>Government...and blacks have just been told to pull their
>pants up and "good luck"

All of us do NOT get checks from the government like y'all think. People that have land leased to the government get paid for those leases, but no one else and those checks ain't even that much. My grandmother gets a couple hundred dollars a few times a year from that, but no one else in the family does.

Natives are consistently among the poorest people in the country with unemployment rates that stay in double digits.

I get paid from our casino twice a year. This year I collected $2200 total from it, hardly baller status.

I know some tribes gettin looted up from casinos, but many are not. For some it's more of an opportunity to have a job than it is to cash in on profit sharing, but those jobs are finite so everyone in the tribe won't get put to work.

---------------------------

"Where was the peace when we were getting shot? Where's the peace when we were getting laid out?
Where is the peace when we are in the back of ambulances? Where is the peace then?
They don't want to call for peace then.

Every black family could easily have used that money...but again, when it comes to black issues...*SILENCE*

that shit barely buys school clothes.

that shit barely pays more than a month or 2 of rent/mortgage for most Black families.

that shit barely buys a functioning car for most Black families.

that shit don't even cover a month of child care expenses for most Black families.

it ain't shit.

but it's an example of the 'casino' revenue you tossed up earlier.

>Every black family could easily have used that money...but
>again, when it comes to black issues...*SILENCE*

You're trying too hard to make it seem as if Natives are awash in money and jobs.

We aren't.

I double checked, the number was $1983.43 for the two checks we got this year. $2200 is closer to what I got last year. I got that money from profit sharing from our casino, something I stated in #151. It didn't come from the government at all and I posted it to illustrate that every tribe with a casino ain't breaking off their members 6 figures or even 5 figures a year.

Of course you're going to try to spin it some other way to fit your agenda.



---------------------------

"Where was the peace when we were getting shot? Where's the peace when we were getting laid out?
Where is the peace when we are in the back of ambulances? Where is the peace then?
They don't want to call for peace then.

Lets try over 2000 over 20-30 years and see where that leads us.

Fact is, blacks are still being disenfranchised and you want to skirt that issue whenever specifically black issues get brought up.

The only shit happening here is you constantly moving the goalposts. You can't effectively argue your points, so instead of acknowledging your arguments are shit, you change arguments.

You try to sat that Natives got it good with "... casinos? And land? And holidays?"

And when it's pointed out that, no, not every tribe has casinos, and even those that do are not awash in cash, you change gears.

In case you further doubt this: http://indiancountrytodaymedianetwork.com/2012/06/23/myth-indian-casino-riches

"

Here are the facts:

Not every tribe has a casino. In 2011, NIGC reported out of 566 federally recognized tribes, only 246 tribes operate 460 gaming facilities in 28 states. Thus, 324 tribes (57 percent) have no gaming operations. Indeed, the rural and unpopulated geographic locations of many Native nations discourage gaming.

Not every Indian has a job. As of 2009, Natives experienced unemployment at 13.1 percent—greater than the nation average of 9.2 percent. Many tribes operate gaming facilities primarily to generate employment. The total number of jobs by Indian gambling created nationwide is impressive: 628,000. But up to 75 percent of those jobs go to non-Indian employees. Areas of extremely high unemployment with a high density of Native folk are the exception—80% of gaming employees in North and South Dakota are Indian. But jobs at Indian Casinos are low-paying and lag behind national wages for the same group of workers."

Then you try to claim we were all getting checks from the government when, again, this is not nearly the case. Only tribal members that have leased land to the government get checks and those numbers are fairly few.

In truth, any land owner can lease land to the government or whomever, as was the case in Citronelle, Alabama decades ago when oil was found on many Black landowners properties. The land was leased for a cut of the profits. If you happen to own land where shit like copper, iron, uranium or whatever was found you could lease it to the government or private industry for a cut of the mineral/oil extracted from the ground.

And holidays??? Nigga, there's no such a thing as "Native History Month" and there isn't a single holiday for Natives at all.

Oh, what... you were gonna pull Christopher Columbus day or Thanksgiving out your ass??? Maybe look at the true history of both days and you'll change your tune.



---------------------------

"Where was the peace when we were getting shot? Where's the peace when we were getting laid out?
Where is the peace when we are in the back of ambulances? Where is the peace then?
They don't want to call for peace then.

>Indigenous folks are actually more economically
>disenfranchised.



But I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess that
>you don't really give a shit about facts
>



>Secondly: Fuck you for reinforcing the same white supremacy
>that has negatively effected all people of color. Keep
>fighting other brown people and not the system that keep us
>ALL in subordinate positions.

Secondly, please stop being so dramatic. While I don't believe everything ol boy is sayin, he hasn't done or a said anything that can hold a candle to what natives have done in ththe past in regards to black folks. They've kept us in "subordinate conditions & have reinforced white supremacy too".

>Indigenous folks are actually more economically
>disenfranchised. But I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess that
>you don't really give a shit about facts
>
>Secondly: Fuck you for reinforcing the same white supremacy
>that has negatively effected all people of color. Keep
>fighting other brown people and not the system that keep us
>ALL in subordinate positions.

The one who escaped slavery and came to help us get free?
Those who rebelled with us?
Those who lived in the palenques/quilombos with us?
Those who we marched along side during the trail of tears?
Or you just talking about some Cherokee?

Get your history game up before you come talking out your ass.

Well, since you mentioned Cherokees we can definitely talk about them since they've been disowning blacks left & right.

Or we can talk about the 5 tribes, all who have owned slaves.

We can also focus on the Chickasaw tribe who consciously and deliberately chose to embrace racial ideology that degraded blackness and associated it exclusively with enslavement.

We can also look into revolts like those of Prince & Richard Harkins

Oh, let's not forget about the wealthy members of the Choctaw Tribes who had slaves so that they could hold onto political and cultural autonomy just to keep face for the white man while pursuing self-interested economic and diplomatic goals.

Damn! I almost forgot how tribes kept slaves even after slavery was over or even worst, sent them out to be arrested on grounds of bein a vagrant & auctioned them off to the highest bidder on purpose...which we all know is slavery by another name.

But, you're right, my "history game" isn't as nearly superior as yours & im talking out of my ass.

>Well, since you mentioned Cherokees we can definitely talk
>about them since they've been disowning blacks left & right.
>
>Or we can talk about the 5 tribes, all who have owned slaves.

There are 567 federally recognized Tribes. There are many, many tribes that have disappeared all together since slavery, and still others in this country that still don't have federal recognition.

You're harping on 5 tribes, one of which (the Seminoles) didn't really "enslave" Africans, and gave them pretty much a free life.

>
>We can also focus on the Chickasaw tribe who consciously and
>deliberately chose to embrace racial ideology that degraded
>blackness and associated it exclusively with enslavement.
>
>We can also look into revolts like those of Prince & Richard
>Harkins
>
>Oh, let's not forget about the wealthy members of the Choctaw
>Tribes who had slaves so that they could hold onto political
>and cultural autonomy just to keep face for the white man
>while pursuing self-interested economic and diplomatic goals.
>
>And then how tribes kept slaves even after slavery was over or
>even worse send them out to be arrested on grounds of bein a
>vagrant & auctioned off to the highest bidder...which we all
>know is slavery by another name.
>
>But, you're right, my "history game" isn't as nearly superior
>as yours & im talking out of my ass.

Let's see...

The Choctaw and Chickasaw, which you mentioned above by name and by proxy (Prince, enslaved by the Choctaw Richard Harkins) are only two of hundreds, if not thousands of Native Tribes the majority of which never owned slaves. What you're talking about amounts to trying to make an issue out of Black slave owners.


---------------------------

"Where was the peace when we were getting shot? Where's the peace when we were getting laid out?
Where is the peace when we are in the back of ambulances? Where is the peace then?
They don't want to call for peace then.

Same.

The narrative is still there they owned slaves either way you wanna slice it, end of story.
There is no sugar coating it.






>>Well, since you mentioned Cherokees we can definitely talk
>>about them since they've been disowning blacks left & right.
>>
>>Or we can talk about the 5 tribes, all who have owned
>slaves.
>
>There are 567 federally recognized Tribes. There are many,
>many tribes that have disappeared all together since slavery,
>and still others in this country that still don't have federal
>recognition.
>
>You're harping on 5 tribes, one of which (the Seminoles)
>didn't really "enslave" Africans, and gave them pretty much a
>free life.
>
>>
>>We can also focus on the Chickasaw tribe who consciously and
>>deliberately chose to embrace racial ideology that degraded
>>blackness and associated it exclusively with enslavement.
>>
>>We can also look into revolts like those of Prince & Richard
>>Harkins
>>
>>Oh, let's not forget about the wealthy members of the
>Choctaw
>>Tribes who had slaves so that they could hold onto political
>>and cultural autonomy just to keep face for the white man
>>while pursuing self-interested economic and diplomatic
>goals.
>>
>>And then how tribes kept slaves even after slavery was over
>or
>>even worse send them out to be arrested on grounds of bein a
>>vagrant & auctioned off to the highest bidder...which we all
>>know is slavery by another name.
>>
>>But, you're right, my "history game" isn't as nearly
>superior
>>as yours & im talking out of my ass.
>
>Let's see...
>
>The Choctaw and Chickasaw, which you mentioned above by name
>and by proxy (Prince, enslaved by the Choctaw Richard Harkins)
>are only two of hundreds, if not thousands of Native Tribes
>the majority of which never owned slaves. What you're talking
>about amounts to trying to make an issue out of Black slave
>owners.
>
>
>---------------------------
>
>"Where was the peace when we were getting shot? Where's the
>peace when we were getting laid out?
>Where is the peace when we are in the back of ambulances?
>Where is the peace then?
>They don't want to call for peace then.

>The narrative is still there they owned slaves either way you
>wanna slice it, end of story.
>There is no sugar coating it.

If you wanna call out everyone that owned slaves as being terrible then go ahead and do that, but don't sit here and act like every tribe was holdin slaves, 'cause shit wasn't like that even in the slightest.


---------------------------

"Where was the peace when we were getting shot? Where's the peace when we were getting laid out?
Where is the peace when we are in the back of ambulances? Where is the peace then?
They don't want to call for peace then.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/08/25/cherokee-nations-expels-d_n_936930.html

You sitting down when you read this?

Because, you know, all Natives are Cherokee.

You sound like a White republican right about now.
---------------------------

"Where was the peace when we were getting shot? Where's the peace when we were getting laid out?
Where is the peace when we are in the back of ambulances? Where is the peace then?
They don't want to call for peace then.

but as i understand a large # of Native American slave owners were kinda like the majority of Black slave owners - they only owned Black slaves on paper. and those who actually made their slaves work tended to treat them better than the average white slave owner. still - they kept Blacks as slaves (mostly in an effort to assimilate w/whitey) and i assume that's what homie referenced.

Slavery , Emancipation & Citizenship in the Native American South.

I was under that impression too that it was, "easy slavery" but I was blown away
at how it was no different than what the white folks were doin

I dont get this.


i also dont understand how competing for jobs that are lowly skilled, do not require any level of education or even spoken english
is supposed to be a panacea for Black unemployment

i'd be more concerned that there is a large enough segment of the Black population that lacks skills for *better* jobs
to the point that they are effectively competing for jobs that people without papers,
and who are desperate, compete for
(i dont believe this to be the case, btw)
this is the question we should be asking
because this is the elephant in the room
how do we have a segment of american citizens without the requisite skills set?

the rest of all this is just your typical lets hate on the less fortunate drivel

ITs very simple.

I want all blacks to succeed...but just like whites, not all of us do. And theres a problem when the people replacing you aren't even supposed to BE here.

which is why we should unite.
rich ppl have armies, the ear of congress, legal immunity, and money.

non-rich ppl only have one advantage- we outnumber the rich.


we need more poor ppl united against the wealthy to turn the tide of the class war against the poor.


>ITs very simple.
>
>I want all blacks to succeed...but just like whites, not all
>of us do. And theres a problem when the people replacing you
>aren't even supposed to BE here.

sheesh.

this idea that if we just get rid of the undocumented we'll be winning is ridiculous. we don't win if we are overworked for criminally low-wages...like what currently happens w/too many undocumented workers.

which is why the fight needs to be about fixing the exploitation in the workplace and not about the face or citizenship status of the exploited.

At no point did I say your prophet will return and you'll wife a 10/10.

I'm simply saying that instituting harsher penalties on illegals and their employers will help black employment.

black unemployment as much as addressing the main issues that keep blacks unemployed and underemployed - most of which have nothing to do w/undocumented immigration.

and i read that in one of the articles you posted earlier:

"To be sure, factors other than illegal immigration contribute to black unemployment. The problem cannot be solved without solving the problems of the high school dropout rate, high rates of family instability, and low job-retention rates. Moreover, >>halting illegal immigration is not a panacea even for the problem of depressed wage rates for low-skilled jobs<<."

So that argument of who should and should not be is garbage.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90U2IqXEvSM

now get the fuck outta my country.

---------------------------

"Where was the peace when we were getting shot? Where's the peace when we were getting laid out?
Where is the peace when we are in the back of ambulances? Where is the peace then?
They don't want to call for peace then.

not even the 40 acres...

or unskilled jobs that require no education, no literacy, no language, no skills whatsoever
and for which one earns a pittance
*this* is considered competition

i fail to comprehend

hire illegals and you can pay them based on arbitrary conditions

i.e. "you get $x.xx for N pounds of whatever you're picking" instead of "you get minimum wage"


---------------------------

"Where was the peace when we were getting shot? Where's the peace when we were getting laid out?
Where is the peace when we are in the back of ambulances? Where is the peace then?
They don't want to call for peace then.

Citizens can unite to get better wages and regulations that honor their safety and wellbeing.

Illegals get abused because they lack the same protections.

Maybe black people just don't identify with the system, having been exploited for most of our history here, still not being very high up the ladder and not having as much to lose as some other groups in America.

I mean, we've got our own "illegals" with limited rights that make even less than undocumented migrants and have even less liberty (those in prison). I am not absolving serious criminals of their actions but there is at least an implicit agreement between government and business that a certain group of people is open for exploitation and both are partially complicit in the sheer size of the group as their policies leave little means of escape from that exploited class.

I think black people could be more squarely, politically in support of illegals but, in general, I think there's at least an abstract sense of a shared struggle against exploitation.

>I mean, we've got our own "illegals" with limited rights that
>make even less than undocumented migrants and have even less
>liberty (those in prison). I am not absolving serious
>criminals of their actions but there is at least an implicit
>agreement between government and business that a certain group
>of people is open for exploitation and both are partially
>complicit in the sheer size of the group as their policies
>leave little means of escape from that exploited class.

cant even vote or shit

>
>>I mean, we've got our own "illegals" with limited rights
>that
>>make even less than undocumented migrants and have even less
>>liberty (those in prison). I am not absolving serious
>>criminals of their actions but there is at least an implicit
>>agreement between government and business that a certain
>group
>>of people is open for exploitation and both are partially
>>complicit in the sheer size of the group as their policies
>>leave little means of escape from that exploited class.
>
>cant even vote or shit
>


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felony_disenfranchisement

"Unrestricted

Maine and Vermont are the only states with unrestricted voting rights for people who are felons. Both states allow the person to vote during incarceration, via absentee ballot and after terms of conviction end.


Ends after release

In thirteen states and the District of Columbia, disenfranchisement ends after incarceration is complete: District of Columbia, Hawaii, Illinois, Indiana, Massachusetts Michigan, Montana, New Hampshire, North Dakota, Ohio Oregon, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, Utah.


Ends after parole

In four states, disenfranchisement ends after incarceration and parole (if any) is complete: California, Colorado, Connecticut, New York.


Ends after probation

Twenty states require not only that incarceration/parole if any are complete but also that any probation sentence (which is often an alternative to incarceration) is complete: Alaska, Arkansas, Georgia, Idaho, Kansas, Louisiana, Maryland, Minnesota, Missouri, Nebraska (Completion of probation + 2 years; treason convicts permanently lose the right to vote), New Jersey, New Mexico, North Carolina, Oklahoma, South Carolina, South Dakota, Texas, Washington, West Virginia (The prosecutor can request the court to revoke voting rights if financial obligations are unmet), Wisconsin."


I don't have a problem with felons not being able to vote while in prison, and at the same time I don't care if they can (Maine and Vermont both allow this), but it seems that, out of 50 states, only 11 will permanently take away your right to vote, and even then there are stipulations on that (i.e. in AZ if it's your first felony offense you automatically get your rights restored after you're out of prison/off probation. If it's your second or more you can petition the county to get your rights restored).

http://felonvoting.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=000286

---------------------------

"Where was the peace when we were getting shot? Where's the peace when we were getting laid out?
Where is the peace when we are in the back of ambulances? Where is the peace then?
They don't want to call for peace then.

In too many states felons can't vote unless/until they complete incarceration, parole and/or probation. That can be a period of several years - if ever. Bc parole terms can be lengthy - and alleged violations can extend that term. Proved or admitted violations result in new jail or prison sentences. When we talk about felons being disenfranchised we're not necessarily talking about permanent loss of the voting right - losing it for several years is enough and it's also disturbing.


>>>I mean, we've got our own "illegals" with limited rights
>>that
>>>make even less than undocumented migrants and have even
>less
>>>liberty (those in prison). I am not absolving serious
>>>criminals of their act
>Maine and Vermont are the only states with
>unrestricted voting rights for people who are felons. Both
>states allow the person to vote during incarceration, via
>absentee ballot and after terms of conviction end.
>
>
>Ends after release
>
>In thirteen states and the District of Columbia,
>disenfranchisement ends after incarceration is complete:
>District of Columbia, Hawaii, Illinois,
>Indiana, Massachusetts Michigan, Montana, New
>Hampshire, North Dakota, Ohio Oregon,
>Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, Utah.
>
>
>Ends after parole
>
>In four states, disenfranchisement ends after incarceration
>and parole (if any) is complete: California, Colorado,
>Connecticut, New York.
>
>
>Ends after probation
>
>Twenty states require not only that incarceration/parole if
>any are complete but also that any probation sentence (which
>is often an alternative to incarceration) is complete:
>Alaska, Arkansas, Georgia, Idaho, Kansas,
>Louisiana, Maryland, Minnesota, Missouri,
>Nebraska (Completion of probation + 2 years; treason convicts
>permanently lose the right to vote), New Jersey, New
>Mexico, North Carolina, Oklahoma, South
>Carolina, South Dakota, Texas, Washington,
>West Virginia (The prosecutor can request the court to revoke
>voting rights if financial obligations are unmet),
>Wisconsin."
>
>
>I don't have a problem with felons not being able to vote
>while in prison, and at the same time I don't care if they can
>(Maine and Vermont both allow this), but it seems that, out of
>50 states, only 11 will permanently take away your right to
>vote, and even then there are stipulations on that (i.e. in AZ
>if it's your first felony offense you automatically get your
>rights restored after you're out of prison/off probation. If
>it's your second or more you can petition the county to get
>your rights restored).
>
>http://felonvoting.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=000286
>
>---------------------------
>
>"Where was the peace when we were getting shot? Where's the
>peace when we were getting laid out?
>Where is the peace when we are in the back of ambulances?
>Where is the peace then?
>They don't want to call for peace then.

What I'm saying is that, yes, you can't vote while you're in prison (unless you're in Maine or Vermont), but in most states your rights are restored upon release from prison or from state supervision and even in cases where it's "permanent" you can still petition to have it restored.

The rhetoric we so often hear doesn't align with reality.

I get what you're saying about lengthy sentences effectively barring a person from ever voting, but that ain't every convicted felon's reality.

Shit, one of my old college roommates caught a federal felony charge for counterfeiting and did 14 months of fed time. Once he was released he had no problem voting.

---------------------------

"Where was the peace when we were getting shot? Where's the peace when we were getting laid out?
Where is the peace when we are in the back of ambulances? Where is the peace then?
They don't want to call for peace then.

This post ain't about that shit.

because its not as easy as walk off jail
and six months later, voila... you can vote.
its clearly more complicated than that

those laws essentially disenfranchise a disproportionately large number of felons
and for very lengthy periods of time
at the same time as making it incredibly difficult to get a job

ban the box is a start

i dont know why we want to base our ideologies on people we know

i can also bring up a cuz or two who's reality is different what is discussed e.g
does this make my anecdote more credible?

shit, i can bring up friends of mine who aint legal and who are working some really good as jobs
definitely not farm labour
would that mean majority of illegal workers are making paper?
and sorry, this is not aimed at you, per se..
its just a trend i see in posts these days
'let me bring up someone i know.....
ugh

its such a lazy way of making a point

>because its not as easy as walk off jail
>and six months later, voila... you can vote.
>its clearly more complicated than that

In two states, you NEVER lose the right to vote. In Maine and Vermont you're eligible to vote even while in prison.

13 more states (~25% of the country) give you back your rights the moment you step foot outside of the prison walls. I even listed those 13 states and the District of Columbia does this ass well.

4 more states give you back your rights after you walk out of prison or after parole is over. This includes California and New York.

20 more states give you back your rights after you leave prison OR after probation is completed.

We're now at 39 out of 50 states. The remaining 11 states even have conditions in place where a felon can regain his or her ability to vote. For example:

Alabama will allow you to petition for reinstatement immediately after serving your time, but will not allow it for certain crimes (murder, rape, incest, sexual crime against children, and treason)

Arizona will give you your rights if it's your first felony, but a second+ felony will require you to petition the county for your rights back.

Tennessee allows felons to petition to have their rights reinstated unless you were convicted of murder, rape, treason and voter fraud.

and so on and so forth.

I used my boy as an example because Michigan is one of the states that reinstates your rights as soon as you walk out of prison.

>
>those laws essentially disenfranchise a disproportionately
>large number of felons
>and for very lengthy periods of time

Read on the subject. If you're out of prison without parole or probation on you, you're good to go in 75% of the states. If you have probation or parole you have to wait until it's done in any state that has it as a stipulation, but you WILL regain those rights.

>at the same time as making it incredibly difficult to get a
>job
>
>ban the box is a start

This is where we agree. In much of the developed world having a felony in your past does not hinder you from employment. There was a thread about this on Slashdot a while back and it seems many of those replying to the thread echo this sentiment:

http://yro.slashdot.org/story/14/12/07/1332245/ask-slashdot-can-a-felon-work-in-it

"I think there's a circular logic somewhere there. If you don't have a job, I guess you have a lower threshold for crime. If you have a job, and everything to loose, I guess crime is not so tepmting.

In most of Europe, criminal convictions is simply irrelevant to jobs. Some jobs require your record, but mostly not the full - only a limited record. For instance, if you work with kids, you need a record clean of child abuse and sexual assaults. But for a general job in IT? Noone would even ask about your record. I have not been asked ever - except for a visa application to the USA.

I believe the European system is better at integrating convicts back into soceity, stopping them from committing more crime."

>
>i dont know why we want to base our ideologies on people we
>know
>
>i can also bring up a cuz or two who's reality is different
>what is discussed e.g
>does this make my anecdote more credible?

No, it means yours falls in line with exactly what I have already posted. Depending on the state and the crime you may have your right to vote stripped from you.


>shit, i can bring up friends of mine who aint legal and who
>are working some really good as jobs
>definitely not farm labour
>would that mean majority of illegal workers are making paper?
>and sorry, this is not aimed at you, per se..
>its just a trend i see in posts these days
>'let me bring up someone i know.....
>ugh
>
>its such a lazy way of making a point

If you really think about what I posted nothing you've said is contrary to what I posted. Hell, just look at the links I threw up, they support BOTH sides of this.

In some states (11 to be exact) the nature of the felony can get your rights stripped. This means not all felonies will get your rights stripped so while your cousin may not be able to vote someone that has a *different* felony conviction would be able to.

The lasw are clear in this regard: there's space for both sides of this coin to exist, it's just not as severe as a lot of folks make it out to be.

voting is a right, not a priviledge

a passport? yes, priviledge, one may argue

a vote? fuck no

We gotta talk about the impacts of employment here.

If millions of OUR OWN can't get work, why should an illegal?

I can honestly say that I was briefly an illegal in the US for about a year and eventually regularized my status.In the way you present your point I can bet that you don't know shit about the immigration process. The idea that an immigrant is "stealing" jobs is quite retarded. Someone gotta be doing the hiring.The case against the ability for immigrant to work is a valid one but your grievance is with the hiring party...But cowards can't fight the big boys so they latch out at the voiceless.

I arrived from Europe to Texas on a Wednesday and on Saturday I started my first job. I was working in a industrial bakery using a cousin's ID and social, none of my coworkwers were American-born and most of them just like me were not legal.When there was an American hired , they didn't last for more than a month. For my 14 years in the US. I've never used welfare.I was independent right away.A lot of illegals have kids that are here legally and have to provide for them. No on else would take care of them if they didn't. It's very myopic to think it's all black and white. The prisoners that Obama freed have absolutely nothing to do with illegal immigration. Try harder.



>We gotta talk about the impacts of employment here.
>
>If millions of OUR OWN can't get work, why should an illegal?

you're doing life wrong.

That's on you.

same act as last time.

and i ain't madd at chico, juan and Santa Fe. this country ain't done right by us period.

is this what most of yall are saying?

Its hard enough to deal with white supremacy...try juggling competing with illegal people who want to slide by on emotional pleas as if we all don't have the same problems.

on black people...

this place is really special.

its amazing watching people tell poor blacks to work harder...

i mean, I know family gets to talk to family some type of way but this is interesting as hell.

telling poor blacks they failed at life... smh

nvrmnd