The Porn Myth
http://nymag.com/nymetro/news/trends/n_9437/index.html?imw=Y

In the end, porn doesn’t whet men’s appetites—it turns them off the real thing.

* By Naomi Wolf

At a benefit the other night, I saw Andrea Dworkin, the anti-porn activist most famous in the eighties for her conviction that opening the floodgates of pornography would lead men to see real women in sexually debased ways. If we did not limit pornography, she argued—before Internet technology made that prospect a technical impossibility—most men would come to objectify women as they objectified porn stars, and treat them accordingly. In a kind of domino theory, she predicted, rape and other kinds of sexual mayhem would surely follow.

The feminist warrior looked gentle and almost frail. The world she had, Cassandra-like, warned us about so passionately was truly here: Porn is, as David Amsden says, the “wallpaper” of our lives now. So was she right or wrong?

She was right about the warning, wrong about the outcome. As she foretold, pornography did breach the dike that separated a marginal, adult, private pursuit from the mainstream public arena. The whole world, post-Internet, did become pornographized. Young men and women are indeed being taught what sex is, how it looks, what its etiquette and expectations are, by pornographic training—and this is having a huge effect on how they interact.

But the effect is not making men into raving beasts. On the contrary: The onslaught of porn is responsible for deadening male libido in relation to real women, and leading men to see fewer and fewer women as “porn-worthy.” Far from having to fend off porn-crazed young men, young women are worrying that as mere flesh and blood, they can scarcely get, let alone hold, their attention.

Here is what young women tell me on college campuses when the subject comes up: They can’t compete, and they know it. For how can a real woman—with pores and her own breasts and even sexual needs of her own (let alone with speech that goes beyond “More, more, you big stud!”)—possibly compete with a cybervision of perfection, downloadable and extinguishable at will, who comes, so to speak, utterly submissive and tailored to the consumer’s least specification?

For most of human history, erotic images have been reflections of, or celebrations of, or substitutes for, real naked women. For the first time in human history, the images’ power and allure have supplanted that of real naked women. Today, real naked women are just bad porn.

For two decades, I have watched young women experience the continual “mission creep” of how pornography—and now Internet pornography—has lowered their sense of their own sexual value and their actual sexual value. When I came of age in the seventies, it was still pretty cool to be able to offer a young man the actual presence of a naked, willing young woman. There were more young men who wanted to be with naked women than there were naked women on the market. If there was nothing actively alarming about you, you could get a pretty enthusiastic response by just showing up. Your boyfriend may have seen Playboy, but hey, you could move, you were warm, you were real. Thirty years ago, simple lovemaking was considered erotic in the pornography that entered mainstream consciousness: When Behind the Green Door first opened, clumsy, earnest, missionary-position intercourse was still considered to be a huge turn-on.

Well, I am 40, and mine is the last female generation to experience that sense of sexual confidence and security in what we had to offer. Our younger sisters had to compete with video porn in the eighties and nineties, when intercourse was not hot enough. Now you have to offer—or flirtatiously suggest—the lesbian scene, the ejaculate-in-the-face scene. Being naked is not enough; you have to be buff, be tan with no tan lines, have the surgically hoisted breasts and the Brazilian bikini wax—just like porn stars. (In my gym, the 40-year-old women have adult pubic hair; the twentysomethings have all been trimmed and styled.) Pornography is addictive; the baseline gets ratcheted up. By the new millennium, a vagina—which, by the way, used to have a pretty high “exchange value,” as Marxist economists would say—wasn’t enough; it barely registered on the thrill scale. All mainstream porn—and certainly the Internet—made routine use of all available female orifices.

The porn loop is de rigueur, no longer outside the pale; starlets in tabloids boast of learning to strip from professionals; the “cool girls” go with guys to the strip clubs, and even ask for lap dances; college girls are expected to tease guys at keg parties with lesbian kisses à la Britney and Madonna.

But does all this sexual imagery in the air mean that sex has been liberated—or is it the case that the relationship between the multi-billion-dollar porn industry, compulsiveness, and sexual appetite has become like the relationship between agribusiness, processed foods, supersize portions, and obesity? If your appetite is stimulated and fed by poor-quality material, it takes more junk to fill you up. People are not closer because of porn but further apart; people are not more turned on in their daily lives but less so.

The young women who talk to me on campuses about the effect of pornography on their intimate lives speak of feeling that they can never measure up, that they can never ask for what they want; and that if they do not offer what porn offers, they cannot expect to hold a guy. The young men talk about what it is like to grow up learning about sex from porn, and how it is not helpful to them in trying to figure out how to be with a real woman. Mostly, when I ask about loneliness, a deep, sad silence descends on audiences of young men and young women alike. They know they are lonely together, even when conjoined, and that this imagery is a big part of that loneliness. What they don’t know is how to get out, how to find each other again erotically, face-to-face.

So Dworkin was right that pornography is compulsive, but she was wrong in thinking it would make men more rapacious. A whole generation of men are less able to connect erotically to women—and ultimately less libidinous.

The reason to turn off the porn might become, to thoughtful people, not a moral one but, in a way, a physical- and emotional-health one; you might want to rethink your constant access to porn in the same way that, if you want to be an athlete, you rethink your smoking. The evidence is in: Greater supply of the stimulant equals diminished capacity.

After all, pornography works in the most basic of ways on the brain: It is Pavlovian. An orgasm is one of the biggest reinforcers imaginable. If you associate orgasm with your wife, a kiss, a scent, a body, that is what, over time, will turn you on; if you open your focus to an endless stream of ever-more-transgressive images of cybersex slaves, that is what it will take to turn you on. The ubiquity of sexual images does not free eros but dilutes it.

Other cultures know this. I am not advocating a return to the days of hiding female sexuality, but I am noting that the power and charge of sex are maintained when there is some sacredness to it, when it is not on tap all the time. In many more traditional cultures, it is not prudery that leads them to discourage men from looking at pornography. It is, rather, because these cultures understand male sexuality and what it takes to keep men and women turned on to one another over time—to help men, in particular, to, as the Old Testament puts it, “rejoice with the wife of thy youth; let her breasts satisfy thee at all times.” These cultures urge men not to look at porn because they know that a powerful erotic bond between parents is a key element of a strong family.

And feminists have misunderstood many of these prohibitions.

I will never forget a visit I made to Ilana, an old friend who had become an Orthodox Jew in Jerusalem. When I saw her again, she had abandoned her jeans and T-shirts for long skirts and a head scarf. I could not get over it. Ilana has waist-length, wild and curly golden-blonde hair. “Can’t I even see your hair?” I asked, trying to find my old friend in there. “No,” she demurred quietly. “Only my husband,” she said with a calm sexual confidence, “ever gets to see my hair.”

When she showed me her little house in a settlement on a hill, and I saw the bedroom, draped in Middle Eastern embroideries, that she shares only with her husband—the kids are not allowed—the sexual intensity in the air was archaic, overwhelming. It was private. It was a feeling of erotic intensity deeper than any I have ever picked up between secular couples in the liberated West. And I thought: Our husbands see naked women all day—in Times Square if not on the Net. Her husband never even sees another woman’s hair.

She must feel, I thought, so hot.

Compare that steaminess with a conversation I had at Northwestern, after I had talked about the effect of porn on relationships. “Why have sex right away?” a boy with tousled hair and Bambi eyes was explaining. “Things are always a little tense and uncomfortable when you just start seeing someone,” he said. “I prefer to have sex right away just to get it over with. You know it’s going to happen anyway, and it gets rid of the tension.”

“Isn’t the tension kind of fun?” I asked. “Doesn’t that also get rid of the mystery?”

“Mystery?” He looked at me blankly. And then, without hesitating, he replied: “I don’t know what you’re talking about. Sex has no mystery.”

__________________

The Sig Below:
"I was told, 'You can be anything you want, kid,' " he once told an interviewer. "When you hear that often enough, you believe it."

www.myspace.com/ryendavidmusic
or
http://tinyurl.com/9u9nm

***************
www.myspace.com/angoleiro
www.myspace.com/manjingaparty

or that porn can be attacked for various perceived societal ills (eg. the "it makes men rapists" angle or this one, "it makes men not desire real women" angle)?

*these are bait questions only, btw.



The Sig Below:
"I was told, 'You can be anything you want, kid,' " he once told an interviewer. "When you hear that often enough, you believe it."

www.myspace.com/ryendavidmusic
or
http://tinyurl.com/9u9nm

>The young women who talk to me on campuses about the effect of
>pornography on their intimate lives speak of feeling that they
>can never measure up, that they can never ask for what they
>want; and that if they do not offer what porn offers, they
>cannot expect to hold a guy.

This couldn't be further from the truth. Very few men are walking around with women who have porn star looks. And despite what women believe, men want more from an SO than just good sex.

>The young men talk about what it
>is like to grow up learning about sex from porn, and how it is
>not helpful to them in trying to figure out how to be with a
>real woman.

The fact that porn doesn't help men deal with real women should not be a revelation to anyone. Julia Roberts movies don't help females deal with men. In fact, most forms of media don't portray real life accurately.

Peace,

*** MARBLES ***

Just because kats are walking around with these girls doesn't mean that they're really comfortable and getting a lot out of sex.

The 19 year old kid who only knows of sex through porn is EXPECTING porn shit from his girl. When regular Keisha ain't fitting to suck his dick, balls and and ass, she ain't worth shit, but he ain't going no where. He just gone go watch porn, leaving Keisha to be very sexually frustrated. How you think all these women walking around not ever experiencing an orgasm?

consumption?

how do you explain the millions of women who weren't having orgasms before the advent of internet porn?

(i'm not disagreeing with you or the article's sentiment; just the logic)

I'm just saying that recently it has become a new scapegoat for the reasons why women aren't getting off.

Lack of communication

Lack of sexual trust

Lack of sexual Appetite due to all the damn diseases we got out here

Lack of sexual knowledge from both parties

Lack of Confidence

I mean there's tons of reasons, I'm not saying this is the end all be all, i think it's just 1 of many.

'back when i was a day we didn't...' is eyeroll-inducing.

I'm not sure I buy that either.

The Sig Below:
"I was told, 'You can be anything you want, kid,' " he once told an interviewer. "When you hear that often enough, you believe it."

www.myspace.com/ryendavidmusic
or
http://tinyurl.com/9u9nm

sex came out of the closet in the 70s resulting in a new level of openness which led to her generation being all liberated and shit. that liberation coincided w/the rise of the porn industry. then came the invention of and proliferation of VCR technology which brought porn into our homes for the 1st time. after that we got the internet.

she can't put this on us. LOL

(in gauging her view on this of course)?

The Sig Below:
"I was told, 'You can be anything you want, kid,' " he once told an interviewer. "When you hear that often enough, you believe it."

www.myspace.com/ryendavidmusic
or
http://tinyurl.com/9u9nm

sex came out of the closet in the 70s resulting in a new level of openness which led to her generation being all liberated and shit. that liberation coincided w/the rise of the porn industry. then came the invention of and proliferation of VCR technology which brought porn into our homes for the 1st time. after that we got the internet.

she can't put this on us. LOL

>Just because kats are walking around with these girls doesn't
>mean that they're really comfortable and getting a lot out of
>sex.
>
>The 19 year old kid who only knows of sex through porn is
>EXPECTING porn shit from his girl. When regular Keisha ain't
>fitting to suck his dick, balls and and ass, she ain't worth
>shit, but he ain't going no where. He just gone go watch porn,
>leaving Keisha to be very sexually frustrated. How you think
>all these women walking around not ever experiencing an
>orgasm?

You can more squarely blame this on a lack of communication than porn though.


The Sig Below:
"I was told, 'You can be anything you want, kid,' " he once told an interviewer. "When you hear that often enough, you believe it."

www.myspace.com/ryendavidmusic
or
http://tinyurl.com/9u9nm

there are other forms of entertainment that have much more sway over the way men and women in America court each other.

> The fact that porn doesn't help men deal with real women
>should not be a revelation to anyone. Julia Roberts movies
>don't help females deal with men. In fact, most forms of
>media don't portray real life accurately.

Porn is just one form in a massive stream of media that provides disinformation and leads to false expectations. Just like true love shouldn't equal a dude going all out and buying a girl everything she asks for and bending over backwards for her all the time, good sex isn't necessarily a girl worshipping your dick and completely neglecting her own needs.

It makes a lot of sense though. If you're associating porn girls with sex, opposed to real women then you aren't really getting that good physical come 2gether.

sorry, i'm not buying it. especially the bit about facials and girl-on-girl action becoming a necessary part of sex in order for porn-consuming guys to get off. i watch all sorts of activity in porn that i don't incorporate into my sex life w/other ppl. much of the porn i watch is bareback (meaning they don't use condoms for intercourse) and it has not resulted in an increase in the amount of bareback sex i have. i've seen watersports...i've not pissed on anyone or been pissed on. i could go on and on getting more graphic. point is...i don't believe b/c i haven't experienced what she's talking about and i consume porn regularly.

might the gender difference account for your personal discrepancy?

*another lousy bait question, btw

The Sig Below:
"I was told, 'You can be anything you want, kid,' " he once told an interviewer. "When you hear that often enough, you believe it."

www.myspace.com/ryendavidmusic
or
http://tinyurl.com/9u9nm

it's women who have the problem w/porn, not men. porn may have decreased women's confidence in the sexual arena but it's not necessarily a result of some change in men's sexual desire. that's the part i take issue with.

>sorry, i'm not buying it. especially the bit about facials
>and girl-on-girl action becoming a necessary part of sex in
>order for porn-consuming guys to get off.

I've never been turned on by girl-on-girl 'britney madonna' action..as the author purports.




-------------------
<--- Vintage Era

Incredible
Hulk
drinkin'
Hennessey
w/ Hypnotiq
mixed with
Chronic
you could
*never*
take a
pull

(c) P

>I've never been turned on by girl-on-girl 'britney madonna'
>action..as the author purports.

me neither


____________________________

http://www.myspace.com/82district
http://www.dc101.com/main.html
http://www.washingtonian.com/index.html

10.9.77 - 11.10.96

modern porn doesn't *have* to be equated with a disconnect w/ so called "real women"..(as if the women in porn aren't 'real women' in the first place)

...to me it has to do with the varying levels of sexual interest/exhibition/and enthusiasm amongst people...

if sex is something you enjoy, but don't think it's necessary to do some of the things porn stars do (shave their pubic region..sculpt/train their bodies to be better lovers/fuckers) then of course you are going to think that the modern porn industry is overboard and 'unrealistic'...that's fine.

However, people who watch modern porn, and even use it to supplement their sex life w/ their partners (i.e., watching scenes and trying to 'out-gun' the porn stars) shouldn't chastised and seen as 'emotionally unstable/unhealthy'.

It's entirely plausible that two young people in love (or not in love) are mentally healthy *and* stable, yet engage in modern-porn like activities when they want to get their animalistic lust on...and there's nothing wrong w/ that.

Whereas I think the author makes good points about reality vs. fantasy...I think she's disconnected w/ the modern generation and is completely discounting the possibility that two people can be in real love, appreciating their real bodies, yet still be avid porn enthusiasts.

-------------------
<--- Vintage Era

Incredible
Hulk
drinkin'
Hennessey
w/ Hypnotiq
mixed with
Chronic
you could
*never*
take a
pull

(c) P

>modern porn doesn't *have* to be equated with a disconnect w/
>so called "real women"..(as if the women in porn aren't 'real
>women' in the first place)


this also parallels with general body image issues wrt to how some women view the model industry and their "skinny" or "thin" counterparts.



The Sig Below:
"I was told, 'You can be anything you want, kid,' " he once told an interviewer. "When you hear that often enough, you believe it."

www.myspace.com/ryendavidmusic
or
http://tinyurl.com/9u9nm

>>modern porn doesn't *have* to be equated with a disconnect
>w/
>>so called "real women"..(as if the women in porn aren't
>'real
>>women' in the first place)
>
>
>this also parallels with general body image issues wrt to how
>some women view the model industry and their "skinny" or
>"thin" counterparts.

right. It's commonplace to refer to 'thin' models as somehow unrealistic and fake...yet they are real women, and there are many women who naturally have a thin/slinder/skinny/athletic figure...yet they are not real images of a woman? right.

and btw.... wrt=with regard to ... nice trick, ox.

-------------------
<--- Vintage Era

Incredible
Hulk
drinkin'
Hennessey
w/ Hypnotiq
mixed with
Chronic
you could
*never*
take a
pull

(c) P

>modern porn doesn't *have* to be equated with a disconnect w/
>so called "real women"..(as if the women in porn aren't 'real
>women' in the first place)

<------Watch the news niccas!

You know what does? Random erections.

The Kinsey report was way before porn kicked in the doors.

i made the same points to my ex, who was somewhat obsessed with porn.

when u become desensitized to "regular" sex, it can alter your expectations. and the fact that women are submissive in most porn (yes, i know not all) can alter your expectations as well...like there are seriously dudes who think (b/c of learning from porn) that all women like to be roughly banged and jizzed on the face, and that's all they have to offer to a woman sexually.

i mean, most (or many) women like that sometimes, but not as the default.

can u watch porn and have a healthy sex life? of course.

but i feel like the points the author of this article brought up are ones that dudes who are so into porn that they gotta watch it daily (or nearly) will not even consider.

(i.e., a large portion of okp men).

*another bait reply....

is porn just the bogeyman for a lack of communication between two partners?




The Sig Below:
"I was told, 'You can be anything you want, kid,' " he once told an interviewer. "When you hear that often enough, you believe it."

www.myspace.com/ryendavidmusic
or
http://tinyurl.com/9u9nm

The Sig Below:
"I was told, 'You can be anything you want, kid,' " he once told an interviewer. "When you hear that often enough, you believe it."

www.myspace.com/ryendavidmusic
or
http://tinyurl.com/9u9nm

topic of the post.

when u said "maybe he wasn't that into you?" i assumed we were still on the original topic of the post and my reply, porn (i.e., i thought u were asking "maybe he wasn't that into you and turned to porn instead?").

we were headed in different directions. that's why we broke up.

for your other question, i don't know...maybe some couples don't communicate their sexual needs or wants to one another, so one person uses porn to live out their fantasies instead of discussing it with their partner. that probably happens a lot.

The Sig Below:
"I was told, 'You can be anything you want, kid,' " he once told an interviewer. "When you hear that often enough, you believe it."

www.myspace.com/ryendavidmusic
or
http://tinyurl.com/9u9nm

if the question is - do i think some people watch porn b/c they don't have open communication with their partners about sexual wants and needs?

then my answer would be yes.

but i'm just speculating, b/c i've never had this problem.

The Sig Below:
"I was told, 'You can be anything you want, kid,' " he once told an interviewer. "When you hear that often enough, you believe it."

www.myspace.com/ryendavidmusic
or
http://tinyurl.com/9u9nm

ask a question if you have a question.

you really didn't answer the questions to begin with.
it's ok. really.

The Sig Below:
"I was told, 'You can be anything you want, kid,' " he once told an interviewer. "When you hear that often enough, you believe it."

www.myspace.com/ryendavidmusic
or
http://tinyurl.com/9u9nm

i disagree.

i cannot say that watching porn has made me want more 'outlandish'/'atypical'/'graphic' sex acts or made me devalue sex. i'm not sure it's made my expectations from sex or my partners unrealistic either.

let's talk about "regular sex"...why is some of the sex that is performed in porn not "regular sex"?

Or is it just inspired sex?

Sexual performance/activity is something that varies from couple to couple...to me sex is a subjective/preference-driven activity...

I don't see why a lot of the sex that happens in porn is somehow, unrealistic, unachievable, or not 'real'...for the two people having that sex, it's very real.

>when u become desensitized to "regular" sex, it can alter your
>expectations. and the fact that women are submissive in most
>porn (yes, i know not all) can alter your expectations as
>well...like there are seriously dudes who think (b/c of
>learning from porn) that all women like to be roughly banged
>and jizzed on the face, and that's all they have to offer to a
>woman sexually.

this is a good point...that's just one facet of sexual activity to me..(i.e., animalistic fucking)...which nonetheless is a *real* and *regular* act of sex for a lot of people....

just as sensuous, responsive, and slow love making is a *regular* act of sex for a lot of people.




-------------------
<--- Vintage Era

Incredible
Hulk
drinkin'
Hennessey
w/ Hypnotiq
mixed with
Chronic
you could
*never*
take a
pull

(c) P

who has actual needs and wants and is not following a script.


>I don't see why a lot of the sex that happens in porn is
>somehow, unrealistic, unachievable, or not 'real'...for the
>two people having that sex, it's very real.

u mean it's real for the two people having sex in the porn film? no, it's usually acting/pretending.

>this is a good point...that's just one facet of sexual
>activity to me..(i.e., animalistic fucking)...which
>nonetheless is a *real* and *regular* act of sex for a lot of
>people....
>
>just as sensuous, responsive, and slow love making is a
>*regular* act of sex for a lot of people.


yeah, that's why i said most women (self included) like it sometimes. but some dudes think that is the *default*, the way that it should be all the time b/c they don't know any better.

I don't buy the premise that somehow porns stars are having fake sex that isn't *real* simply because it's on videotape and sold for mass consumption.

Usually people who attack porn as being 'unrealistic' and brand it as 'not regular sex' have pretty boring ass sex themselves, no offense.

>>I don't see why a lot of the sex that happens in porn is
>>somehow, unrealistic, unachievable, or not 'real'...for the
>>two people having that sex, it's very real.
>
>u mean it's real for the two people having sex in the porn
>film? no, it's usually acting/pretending.

perhaps you've seen some really bad porn. Good porn is *real* sex.

>>this is a good point...that's just one facet of sexual
>>activity to me..(i.e., animalistic fucking)...which
>>nonetheless is a *real* and *regular* act of sex for a lot
>of
>>people....
>>
>>just as sensuous, responsive, and slow love making is a
>>*regular* act of sex for a lot of people.
>
>
>yeah, that's why i said most women (self included) like it
>sometimes. but some dudes think that is the *default*, the
>way that it should be all the time b/c they don't know any
>better.

that's just a lack of education/communication....not necessarily an ultimate reflection on the ill effects of porn.



-------------------
<--- Vintage Era

Incredible
Hulk
drinkin'
Hennessey
w/ Hypnotiq
mixed with
Chronic
you could
*never*
take a
pull

(c) P

>Usually people who attack porn as being 'unrealistic' and
>brand it as 'not regular sex' have pretty boring ass sex
>themselves, no offense.

and porn isn't acting? you don't think it's artificial?

>and porn isn't acting? you don't think it's artificial?

depends on the porn.


-------------------
<--- Vintage Era

Incredible
Hulk
drinkin'
Hennessey
w/ Hypnotiq
mixed with
Chronic
you could
*never*
take a
pull

(c) P

(but do you.)

(that's a generalization too. lol.)

but you're just doing you, i understand.







-------------------
<--- Vintage Era

Incredible
Hulk
drinkin'
Hennessey
w/ Hypnotiq
mixed with
Chronic
you could
*never*
take a
pull

(c) P

it just seemed kinda beside the points either of you were making.

i meant no offense.

>it just seemed kinda beside the points either of you were
>making.

perhaps, but it was related to people's perspectives on porn-sex versus 'real' sex.

>i meant no offense.

nor did I.

Actually, you seemed to take more offense to my statement than she did.


-------------------
<--- Vintage Era

Incredible
Hulk
drinkin'
Hennessey
w/ Hypnotiq
mixed with
Chronic
you could
*never*
take a
pull

(c) P

>I don't buy the premise that somehow porns stars are having
>fake sex that isn't *real* simply because it's on videotape
>and sold for mass consumption.

i'm sure some of them do enjoy it. it is sex, after all. but they get paid to act like it's enjoyable whether it is or not. so even if they're repulsed by the person they're with or just not into it, they gotta act like they are b/c that's what they're getting paid for.

>
>Usually people who attack porn as being 'unrealistic' and
>brand it as 'not regular sex' have pretty boring ass sex
>themselves, no offense.

this is true. but some folks who watch porn all the time have no sex life outside of jacking off to a dvd. so it goes both ways.

i love sex and have done/will do all types of things when BOTH my partner and i are into it.


>perhaps you've seen some really bad porn. Good porn is *real*
>sex.

smh.


>that's just a lack of education/communication....not
>necessarily an ultimate reflection on the ill effects of
>porn.
>

and the point of the article was that for many people, porn *is* their sexual education.

>i'm sure some of them do enjoy it. it is sex, after all. but
>they get paid to act like it's enjoyable whether it is or not.
>so even if they're repulsed by the person they're with or just
>not into it, they gotta act like they are b/c that's what
>they're getting paid for.

this is true..and I'm certainly not purporting that *all* sex that occurs in porn is a mutually enjoyable experience had by both parties...there certainly is porn that is artificial and purely manufactured to market to a particular audience...but there is also porn that is real, inspired, *good* sex (as subjectively perceived) that is quite real. That was my only point on that.

>>Usually people who attack porn as being 'unrealistic' and
>>brand it as 'not regular sex' have pretty boring ass sex
>>themselves, no offense.
>
>this is true. but some folks who watch porn all the time have
>no sex life outside of jacking off to a dvd. so it goes both
>ways.

lol, also true.

>i love sex and have done/will do all types of things when BOTH
>my partner and i are into it.

mutual enthusiasm/inclusion is imperative.

>>perhaps you've seen some really bad porn. Good porn is
>*real*
>>sex.

might i recommend Justin Slayer's series?

>>that's just a lack of education/communication....not
>>necessarily an ultimate reflection on the ill effects of
>>porn.
>>
>
>and the point of the article was that for many people, porn
>*is* their sexual education.

But my thing is this...before porn existed (and let's pretend porn still doesn't exist for a moment) these people *still* would have a lack of sexual education. Even if they don't watch porn, they still are not going to be sexually educated. The culprit is a lack of willingness to learn about sex and women, not porn, imo.

So then, what i'm saying is, it's not *necessarily* porn that is creating this lack of education and awareness...though it may contribute to the cause.


-------------------
<--- Vintage Era

Incredible
Hulk
drinkin'
Hennessey
w/ Hypnotiq
mixed with
Chronic
you could
*never*
take a
pull

(c) P

few problems have *one* cause.


>But my thing is this...before porn existed (and let's pretend
>porn still doesn't exist for a moment) these people *still*
>would have a lack of sexual education. Even if they don't
>watch porn, they still are not going to be sexually educated.
>

b.p. (before porn) i would imagine that people learned about sex by having sex or getting second-hand advice.


The culprit is a lack of willingness to learn about sex and
>women, not porn, imo.

that is also one of many culprits...again, several causes contribute to the problems that the author mentioned.

>but i feel like the points the author of this article brought
>up are ones that dudes who are so into porn that they gotta
>watch it daily (or nearly) will not even consider.


those points def need to be explored further
i mean, daily though? u must see a chic being pounded daily?
i dunno
seems like a bit much.

and why do we have to hear about all the boohoo from women when men face the same issues?

meh

>and why do we have to hear about all the boohoo from women
>when men face the same issues?
>
>meh
>
>
>
>

-------------------
<--- Vintage Era

Incredible
Hulk
drinkin'
Hennessey
w/ Hypnotiq
mixed with
Chronic
you could
*never*
take a
pull

(c) P

CHUGGA CHUGGA CHUGGA CHUGGA CHUGGA

DONATE THIS SEASON:
http://www.hawaiifoodbank.org
***
THE RUN-OFF GROOVE: a column, not a blog
http://www.musicforamerica.org/node/113153

~~~~~

DONATE THIS SEASON:
http://www.hawaiifoodbank.org
***
THE RUN-OFF GROOVE: a column, not a blog
http://www.musicforamerica.org/node/113153

...one two three fo' FIF'.
...eff. eye. eff. FIF'.
~~~~~

i dont have a 15 inch cock and i dont last 45 mins everytime

this is the same reason oprah and them lose credibility with me

they take HUMAN issues and turn them into WOMENS issues or RACIAL issues

and then you got crackpots posting stuff like 'rape is a black issue'

that annoys me

it really shows the author to be what he/she is suppossedly arguing against

a sexist

or a racist

or a...

whatever

if you cant see that this is a human issue then youve lost sight of what you really are arguing for

and most likely become what you are arguing against

>i dont have a 15 inch cock and i dont last 45 mins everytime
just some of the time. that's good to know. i've seen like a total of less than 10 minutes of porn in my entire life, so my expecations have nothing to do with porn. i don't know if i'm highly unusual for women. but i suspect women are watching mch less porn. edit: cause it's off topic.


>this is the same reason oprah and them lose credibility with
>me
>
>they take HUMAN issues and turn them into WOMENS issues or
>RACIAL issues
so is breast cancer a men's issue? i mean men can get it. some issues simply ARE women's issues or black issues. i mean yeah, white people experience 'racism' as in some people don't dislike them because of their race but it's not the same.

that these ppl miss the big picture

and imo it is extremely beneficial to THEM to do so and not necessarily beneficial to their initial issue at all

i dont like that

as far as womens and racial issues.. i guess there are

i just dont think rape and trying to live up to magazine covers are two of them

to me this means not liking yourself. this isn't so much true for men.

but, as for the other stuff. i get what you're saying.

but like i said in line one, i don't think this is so much a men's issue.

women (a lot of women) relaly have issues with body image.

you don't hear men talk about it b/c you're not privy to those conversations and b/c we have a difficult time expressing these sorts of thoughts even among ourselves. doesn't mean they're not issues for us.

>to me this means not liking yourself. this isn't so much true
>for men.

we got body issues too, player. and they come from many of the same places y'all's do.

the next time you watch TV check out how many buff guys you see selling products that have nothing to do w/fitness. see how many shirtless toned guys you see selling toothpaste, shaving cream, and other innocuous products. we see that shit everyday. when i see 'regular' looking guys selling things on TV they're often playing the foil for some buff/good-looking guy or they're playing a fool of some sort.

>but, as for the other stuff. i get what you're saying.
>
>but like i said in line one, i don't think this is so much a
>men's issue.
>
>women (a lot of women) relaly have issues with body image.

why do you think we use steroids?

i've read several articles about increases in the occurence of eating disorders among boys and young men.

we got body issues too.

not so much for straight men... they're pretty self satisfied. but will call out women for being fat and disgusting. why because women dont' really care. the pressure isn't there as much for you to fit a physical ideal.

is this thing on?

hello?

>not so much for straight men... they're pretty self
>satisfied.

1 more time...you don't hear them talk about the issue b/c you're not privy to the conversations, it doesn't mean the convos don't happen or that issue isn't real. it's there.

and yeah i know some gay men do. i have that kevyn aucoin book.

really though there are 50 magazines for women that tell how how to groom what to wear, etc etc. and like 5 for men.

there's a reason for that.

>and yeah i know some gay men do. i have that kevyn aucoin
>book.

wtf?

>really though there are 50 magazines for women that tell how
>how to groom what to wear, etc etc. and like 5 for men.

>there's a reason for that.

there are more magazines catering to women period b/c advertisers are trying to reach women. the point of magazines is to sell products not to tell women or men how to do anything.

to women in beauty magazines is there is more interest on women's end in beauty.

when i see this patting head shit i know you're lost.

and have nothing more to add.

>to women in beauty magazines is there is more interest on
>women's end in beauty.

no doubt, women are interested in beauty...moreso than men.

no doubt women have more body issues than men.

but you said men have 0 body issues. you said women's issues w/their bodies relates to a general lack of self-love and that those are women's issues and not men's issues. you were wrong. men do have body issues which may be connected to a lack of self-love. you don't think men have those issues b/c you don't hear us talking about them b/c you're not privy to those conversations among men.

>when i see this patting head shit i know you're lost.

naw it usually means the person being patted has said something so stupid i give up trying to dialogue.

she is only driving my initial point home without realizing it

>and yeah i know some gay men do. i have that kevyn aucoin
>book.

wtf?

>really though there are 50 magazines for women that tell how
>how to groom what to wear, etc etc. and like 5 for men.

>there's a reason for that.

there are more magazines catering to women period b/c advertisers are trying to reach women. the point of magazines is to sell products not to tell women or men how to do anything.

The Sig Below:
"I was told, 'You can be anything you want, kid,' " he once told an interviewer. "When you hear that often enough, you believe it."

www.myspace.com/ryendavidmusic
or
http://tinyurl.com/9u9nm

is much higher than it is for men.

The Sig Below:
"I was told, 'You can be anything you want, kid,' " he once told an interviewer. "When you hear that often enough, you believe it."

www.myspace.com/ryendavidmusic
or
http://tinyurl.com/9u9nm

...like this. i'm thinking a combination of the two. like 'hiladious' or 'silariad' or 'silarious'... or maybe just plain 'silly' for short.

...yes, men have body issues. but the way we're biologically predisposed and brought up in society for the most part keeps us from talking about this. yeah, men will say they're fine with their bodies... but that's 'cause they're taught that men are supposed to be confident. but don't think for a second that the pudgy or bone-thin geek you knew in high school doesn't feel like shit when he sees taye diggs, brad pitt, or whichever beefcake on the tele screen.

...and, you forget a major factor: men learn just not to talk about it. why? 'cause it's boring as shit to hear somebody go on about their body issues. why? BECAUSE EVERYBODY HAS BODY ISSUES! you ever watch an interview with a sex symbol? you know how they always talk about how they don't think of themselves as sex symbols or how they always felt weird growing up? it's 'cause everybody's uncomfortable with their bodies to some extent. lol. men, too.

~~~~~

>not so much for straight men... they're pretty self
>satisfied. but will call out women for being fat and
>disgusting. why because women dont' really care. the
>pressure isn't there as much for you to fit a physical ideal.

Straight men still wanna look good, be in good shape, et cetera.

The only type they STOP wanting to do that? When they are happy in a relationship. LOL

this idea that some arbitrary focus that engages women (say, for instance, TV watching) detracts from their ability to want and fulfill the real world desires (emotional and otherwise) of men because it leaves women with unrealistic valuations of relationship interaction.

The Sig Below:
"I was told, 'You can be anything you want, kid,' " he once told an interviewer. "When you hear that often enough, you believe it."

www.myspace.com/ryendavidmusic
or
http://tinyurl.com/9u9nm

>this idea that some arbitrary focus that engages women (say,
>for instance, TV watching) detracts from their ability to want
>and fulfill the real world desires (emotional and otherwise)
>of men because it leaves women with unrealistic valuations of
>relationship interaction.


but do you think it does? for example do you think tv does?

The basic point is that any focused distraction will take away from places in one's life where intimate focus is required.

It isn't just one focused distraction that causes problems (like porn watching) nor does it happen to just one gender.

For instance, we could go on & on about the Prince Charming idealization that a lot of women are taught to believe. It is clearly in the realm of fantasy and unrealistic expectations as to what men can & will offer in a relationship. Yet and still, to blame that as a defining reason for failure in a real world relationship is patently false (much like the way porn is being blamed in the article above and in some other OKP's replies). It really boils down to communication and genuine human interaction as to what will make for a fulfilling (read: emotional & sexual) relationship.

The Sig Below:
"I was told, 'You can be anything you want, kid,' " he once told an interviewer. "When you hear that often enough, you believe it."

www.myspace.com/ryendavidmusic
or
http://tinyurl.com/9u9nm

then they did 50 years ago. i don't really know what prince charming fantasy yoyu're talking abot. unlike 50 years ago women are often told they need to be able to take care of themselves and kids without any man...

you sure dodged answering that.

The Sig Below:
"I was told, 'You can be anything you want, kid,' " he once told an interviewer. "When you hear that often enough, you believe it."

www.myspace.com/ryendavidmusic
or
http://tinyurl.com/9u9nm

...

The first time I found my dad's porn stash either underneath towels in the bathroom, or within a box behind his weights. Within those bodybuilding magazines and car & motorcycle magazines wasn't just Playboy or Penthouse, but Hustler, and the cherished Velvet. Playboy and Penthouse was relatively tame back then, Hustler showed welts, and Velvet... oh damn.

For a lot of guys, that's our first peak into what it could be like as an adult. Not that I didn't want to have sex at 11 or 12, but I was 11 or 12, truly in no hurry to "chance" or "make baby". I think of all the stupid antics I did in the hopes of getting the attention of a girl at school. As one gets older, they get bolder. When being bold didn't work, you went downtown to Elmo's Adult Books, found the lady with no teeth, and bought a 3-pack of Lesbos Are Fun. Or that one magazine where it's a lady who looks like she could be a classmate, and she happens to be with that old guy who happens to have a boathouse. Nice.

Yet, magazines and videos are substitutes. The difference now is that they are readily available substitutes. One doesn't have to hide in a restroom, porn is more mobile than ever.

I'd like to think that if anything, it would make a guy more curious about "the real thing", but I grew up in a unique time, where it wasn't just "free love" but the freedom of love (cue the audience: "awwwwwwwwwwww"). When I became a teenager and started to get those urges, here comes something called AIDS. This wasn't the special episode of "Good Times" where J.J. goes to the VD clinic, this was far worse. I wasn't going on dates anyway, but there were some nice girls in my Radio/TV production, and in the very small chance I was to get lucky with one of them, I didn't want to die. Lots of mixed messages, but in time it would make me more cautious in my actions with women. That too, would come in time.

There's a new generation of people who were raised during a time when television were becoming more upfront and blunt with sexual reference. It's funny to think that "I Want Your Sex" was censored on the radio, and "condom" was still a bad word. Now, you have Akon singing "I Wanna Fuck You", Ciara gyrating her folds, it's not in the bathroom anymore. Granted, it's sexy, but to get it on an hourly basis opposed to forcing yourself to stay up on Friday to watch Cinemax After Hours, I don't know what that is doing to a younger generation, if anything. If porn (and I do realize that porn is different from a Ciara video, but we all love those dances of women moving their hips is if their gyrating on a cock like a sexual Dairy Queen machine) is making guys resist the urge to be with live, breathing women, maybe they need to stay away for a month or two.

Trust me, seeing a woman on paper or on a digital file is nice eye candy, we can put the magazine away or turn off the file afterwards. But a real woman is so much more satisfying, and I do mean in much more than a sexual manner. Sex is one thing, tapping into the emotions and finding out about a person is another level too. It doesn't have to be sex at all, commit to being a friend. If there's good stuff to be had, let it happen if it's meant to be. If not, be a man by being a friend. Then go hang out with Tiffany Mynx.




DONATE THIS SEASON:
http://www.hawaiifoodbank.org
***
THE RUN-OFF GROOVE: a column, not a blog
http://www.musicforamerica.org/node/113153

>Trust me, seeing a woman on paper or on a digital file is nice
>eye candy, we can put the magazine away or turn off the file
>afterwards. But a real woman is so much more satisfying, and
>I do mean in much more than a sexual manner. Sex is one
>thing, tapping into the emotions and finding out about a
>person is another level too. It doesn't have to be sex at
>all, commit to being a friend. If there's good stuff to be
>had, let it happen if it's meant to be. If not, be a man by
>being a friend. Then go hang out with Tiffany Mynx.

I think that any normal male would rather have bland, vanilla sex with a real woman than spend all of their time & money watching their favorite porn stars (Caramel & Taylor St. Clair, for instance) get bounced around.

Peace,

*** MARBLES ***

> I think that any normal male would rather have bland,
>vanilla sex with a real woman than spend all of their time &
>money watching their favorite porn stars (Caramel & Taylor St.
>Clair, for instance) get bounced around.
>
> Peace,
>
>*** MARBLES ***


The Sig Below:
"I was told, 'You can be anything you want, kid,' " he once told an interviewer. "When you hear that often enough, you believe it."

www.myspace.com/ryendavidmusic
or
http://tinyurl.com/9u9nm

u're asking me about my past relationships, and couples' communication.

The Sig Below:
"I was told, 'You can be anything you want, kid,' " he once told an interviewer. "When you hear that often enough, you believe it."

www.myspace.com/ryendavidmusic
or
http://tinyurl.com/9u9nm

> I think that any normal male would rather have bland,
>vanilla sex with a real woman than spend all of their time &
>money watching their favorite porn stars (Caramel & Taylor St.
>Clair, for instance) get bounced around.

True. Hopefully, if it is bland and vanilla sex, they would be willing to spice it up, either on his own, or through her encouragement. Yet we as guys are thinking "nah, I'm not going to let her tell ME how to please HER". Yet... without getting too explicit, I was doing something, she told me to make an adjustment. I did, she went crazy, and that was a huge turn on. The interaction, that surpasses any porn.








DONATE THIS SEASON:
http://www.hawaiifoodbank.org
***
THE RUN-OFF GROOVE: a column, not a blog
http://www.musicforamerica.org/node/113153

young men who have been sexualized (the sexual equivalent of socialization -yes i made this word up) through porn.

'normal' hasn't changed in the way she's saying.

'normal' guys still prefer real live sex w/real live ppl over porn even if that real live sex doesn't live up to the standard seen in porn. we don't expect sex to be just like it is in the movies.

for the life of me i can't figure out why a gay male would want to give his two cents...

and most of you knew before you read the article - porn is great and it improves people's sex lives and no kind of scientific or antectedoal evidence could ever change your mind.

>for the life of me i can't figure out why a gay male would
>want to give his two cents...

the post is also about porn's effect on the male libido, something i'm very interested in considering i'm a male w/a libido who consumes porn.

is that okay w/you?

>and most of you knew before you read the article - porn is
>great and it improves people's sex lives and no kind of
>scientific or antectedoal evidence could ever change your
>mind.

LOL

i don't know if it's improved my sex life. i think the affects it's had on my sex life have been neutral.

if anything strengthens naomi's argument, that porn has men less sexually interestd in women.

but really, the article is not about men's sexual interest in men..

the article is not about women's sexual nterest in men...

it's about MEN'S SEXUAL INTEREST IN WOMEN, how men relate sexually to women and how it's changed due to porn.

I'd bet a dollar to a donut that gay men's interest in sex with other men can be compared to hetero men's interest in women.

You make it sound like gay folks and their sex lives are incapable of being compared to straight folks.

Peace,

*** MARBLES ***

>if anything strengthens naomi's argument, that porn has men
>less sexually interestd in women.

>

>for the life of me i can't figure out why a gay male would
>want to give his two cents...

the post is also about porn's effect on the male libido, something i'm very interested in considering i'm a male w/a libido who consumes porn.

is that okay w/you?

>and most of you knew before you read the article - porn is
>great and it improves people's sex lives and no kind of
>scientific or antectedoal evidence could ever change your
>mind.

LOL

i don't know if it's improved my sex life. i think the affects it's had on my sex life have been neutral.

i would say homosexual men might even have a higher standard
btu that's just me walking through chelsea and seeing all the buff gay men
(yum btw anyways)

i'll ask you specifically
what are you body standards
sex standards
do you turn away dump a man if he does have the gym body?
can't last 1/2/3 hours
comes too fast

and you of all people (compared to women)would be the best judge only in comparision to yourself as to what would be a realistic expectation from your sexual partner and what you tolerate in comparision to yourself and what you won't

fill me in please
~~~~~~~~
I would rather maim than kill
Hurt than maim
Intimidate than hurt
Avoid than intimidate.
~~~~~~~~~

sure, there are people out there who are so badly socialized that porn becomes heir only view of reality, but that is more a result of modern society than it is a result of pornography.

Plus, since the media stretches back a few decades before porn blew up, I assume she's trying to imply that in those days men had absolutely no unreal expectations of women? And all women portrayed in print/images/video were absolutely honest portrayals? Then what was the women's lib movement and the sexual revolution about?

>sure, there are people out there who are so badly socialized
>that porn becomes heir only view of reality, but that is more
>a result of modern society than it is a result of
>pornography.
you can be well socialized and poorly sexualized.

>Plus, since the media stretches back a few decades before porn
>blew up, I assume she's trying to imply that in those days men
>had absolutely no unreal expectations of women? And all women
>portrayed in print/images/video were absolutely honest
>portrayals? Then what was the women's lib movement and the
>sexual revolution about?

i think men 40+ 50+ esp (but even 30+) have more realistic expectations of the female body. less desire for weird porn like sexual situations. yes, there are some women who love making porn scenes happen in the bedroom and don't consider wanything weird about it. there are probably just as many like me who have no idea what all these porn techniques are abut... bc i've seen less than 10 minutes total my entire life.

>you can be well socialized and poorly sexualized.

I have no idea what you mean by this


>i think men 40+ 50+ esp (but even 30+) have more realistic
>expectations of the female body.

I call bullshit yet again. Older men have a loong history of dating and or marrying women a lot younger than them. Even teenagers. Especially in those more 'sexually enlightened' societies she is gushing about

>yes, there are some women who love
>making porn scenes happen in the bedroom and don't consider
>wanything weird about it. there are probably just as many
>like me who have no idea what all these porn techniques are
>abut... bc i've seen less than 10 minutes total my entire
>life.

If you don't like those things, find someone who doesn't want them. Open and closed.

Plus I find it interesting that you are critiquing something you admit to having no real experience with

not something thats learned. that's another topic. i have no idea what that has to do with the discussion. i know you're not trying to suggest that has something to do with porn.

sexualization = sexual socialization

>not something thats learned. that's another topic. i have no
>idea what that has to do with the discussion. i know you're
>not trying to suggest that has something to do with porn.

Thats my point exactly. Unrealistic expectations have nothing to do with porn. Society's obsession with looking youthful has more to do with youthful= attractive and that being excessively pushed by marketers than it does with porn.People are trying to hang issues of the larger society on a convenient target.

>sexualization = sexual socialization

That seems like a different definition from the one I know.

let's try that word. diidn't use to come from porn though.

or utterly misleading movies, or badly writen books. And before that lots of cultures had rites of passage where they TALKED TO THEIR KIDS ABOUT SEX!

Again, the issue isn't porn, its modern society's tacit approval of a system that overexposes kids to sexual images but will not have an honest discussion with them about sexuality. Hence, we end up with kids learning about sex through an entertainment medium and people blaming that medium for not being accurate enough. Like I said. These issues are bigger than porn. it just makes a nice target

...

I used to watch R-rated action movies with my father before I was a teen.

The rules were simple. This wasn't real. It was fun to watch but not anything I was allowed to say or do in real life. And it worked. I've always had a very clear line between fantasy and reality.

People seriously underestimate the strength of talking honestly to their kids

has said that it has allowed women to release the inner freak i mean when the boundaries are widened what is considered conservative also opens up. i mean if back in the day if fellatio and cunillingulus (damn i don't know if spelled that right) were freaky now they are ordinary. as far as personally i think it should be used as a tool to open dialogue in a relationship. i mean everyone is different. i mean i think i am a bit of a freak but that isn't becuase of porn. guys i suggest you find a film where the woman actually enjoys whatever it is you are trying to open your girl up to or else she is going to say "look she don't even like it". personally i don't like films where the girl isn't really enjoying whatever it is she is doing and you can generally tell they ain't good actors, thius they are in porn and not in hollywood.

...

how bout an explaination something. far as i know this is true with anything.

picture me listening to what
old, played out feminists have
to say about 'men.'

yall know i have no time
for them or their de-bunked
worldview.

all i'll say is that - sure -
in specific cases i'm sure
jacking off makes dudes wanna
have less sex.

but the 'sex industry' has been
around for a while now, you've
even got PAUL railing against it
in the new testament 2000 years
ago, and it has been causing
tension between men and women
almost from break.

the idea that the SUDDEN RISE
OF INTERNET PORN is the reason
women are sexually unfulfilled
it shortsighted and typical of
folks like the author, and the
main reason i really can't fade
them.

no matter what the issue, they
keep looking for 'what males are
doing wrong now' as the reason
why 'things ain't right.'

eh...

she's lame, and there is a reason
why an entire generations of young
girls has pretty much dismissed her
whole movement in favor of oversexed,
sex-pottery. <--- not right either, just sayin'

WWW.TYPEILLYPRESS.COM

* SELFMANDATE = anyone making catty,
nitpicky comments about somebody else's
appearance is hereby required to post
their OWN picture, or forevermore be
considered SUSPECT by this poster...

Son t.v. is NOT real....movies are NOT real. I mean it was simple...but it stayed with me and I applied it accordingly...mufuckahz need to learn to discern between reality and fantasy and apparently our stupid asses can't do that....lol
I swear we got the dumbest fuckers on the planet in this place....


Plus while I do like my porn...i prefer a real chic. a norma good girl
YAOMEANG??!

the hormones it releases are the same as other drugs.. and just like other drugs, we should be extremely careful in
how much we choose to experiment..

porn is raising the bar of expectation.. once you experience more and more stimulating sex, everything will always be
compared to that.. the bar continues to get raised until two people making love isn't enough to get you off anymore..
i have a feeling that it contributes to cheating.. when "normal" and due to what its compared to, boring, sex isn't satisfying
enough and there is a plethora of girls gone wild milling around the sidelines askin "dontcha wish your girlfriend was
a freak like me?"

porn has the power to desensitize us.. the more we watch the more it takes to get "high". our tolerance gets higher
and higher..

thats the silent danger. at some point no one will be able to satisfy us anymore. then what is left?

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
To change, we must face the dragon of our appetites with another dragon... the life-energy of our Soul...

>the hormones it releases are the same as other drugs.. and
>just like other drugs, we should be extremely careful in
>how much we choose to experiment..
>
>porn is raising the bar of expectation.. once you experience
>more and more stimulating sex, everything will always be
>compared to that.. the bar continues to get raised until two
>people making love isn't enough to get you off anymore..
>i have a feeling that it contributes to cheating.. when
>"normal" and due to what its compared to, boring, sex isn't
>satisfying
>enough and there is a plethora of girls gone wild milling
>around the sidelines askin "dontcha wish your girlfriend was
>a freak like me?"
>
>porn has the power to desensitize us.. the more we watch the
>more it takes to get "high". our tolerance gets higher
>and higher..
>
>thats the silent danger. at some point no one will be able to
>satisfy us anymore. then what is left?

well-done, but I must disagree on the implication that porn renders one to cheat....

I don't think it's the drug, persay. Rather, it's the person using the drug.

If the person is going to cheat, I feel anything can be a 'trigger' to that act of cheating (be it porn, alcohol...shit...going to the grocery store even).





-------------------
<--- Vintage Era

Incredible
Hulk
drinkin'
Hennessey
w/ Hypnotiq
mixed with
Chronic
you could
*never*
take a
pull

(c) P

>well-done, but I must disagree on the implication that porn
>renders one to cheat....
>
>I don't think it's the drug, persay. Rather, it's the person
>using the drug.
>
>---------->^^unfortunately, more people have the addict tendancy than not.. i think that porn hyper-sexualizes us to an extent..
that being said, we are literally rewiring ourselves, lowering inhibitions.. the drugs *effect* leads people to more risky
behaivor..

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
To change, we must face the dragon of our appetites with another dragon... the life-energy of our Soul...

since if sexuality is a drug and like other drugs we build a tolerance we shouldn't be interested in or satisfied by masturbation after a certain point since most of us begin our use of sexuality by masturbating. masturbation should be our gateway drug and its effectiveness should wear off altogether at some point.

but it doesn't work like that...if i want i can get myself off today the same way i did when i was 11 yrs old.

>porn is raising the bar of expectation.. once you experience
>more and more stimulating sex

^^ those statements don't relate. porn != experiencing stimulating sex. porn != stimulating sex. i've had enough stimulating sex and watched enough porn to know the difference.

, everything will always be
>compared to that..

i compare the movies i've seen to other movies i've seen. i compare real live sexual experience to other real live sexual experiences. i bet most guys do the same thing.

the bar continues to get raised until two
>people making love isn't enough to get you off anymore..

naw.

>i have a feeling that it contributes to cheating.. when
>"normal" and due to what its compared to, boring, sex isn't
>satisfying
>enough and there is a plethora of girls gone wild milling
>around the sidelines askin "dontcha wish your girlfriend was
>a freak like me?"

1. Girls Gone Wild is relatively boring porn.
2. guys cheat b/c they can.
3. i've heard from women who have been w/men who were cheating that the guys didn't want to do anything outside the realm of 'normal'. the women actually expected the opposite...that the guys would want to swing from chandeliers and do all the other things their wife won't do (© Joe) but that wasn't the case.

>porn has the power to desensitize us.. the more we watch the
>more it takes to get "high". our tolerance gets higher
>and higher..

yes...in the context of porn this can be true. i noticed myself veering off into pretty specialized fetish material for a few months and wondered if it meant vanilla porn wouldn't do it for me anymore. thankfully i was able to get back to vanilla stuff. now i find i go through phases where i want vanilla and others where i want it more hard-core or fetished. sometimes i'll go through multiple phases in a day or a week.

>thats the silent danger. at some point no one will be able to
>satisfy us anymore. then what is left?

that's so bleak. i'm glad i don't have that outlook.

>since if sexuality is a drug and like other drugs we build a
>tolerance we shouldn't be interested in or satisfied by
>masturbation after a certain point since most of us begin our
>use of sexuality by masturbating. masturbation should be our
>gateway drug and its effectiveness should wear off altogether
>at some point.
>
------------->^^not necessarily.. just because a tobacco smoker starts experimenting with marijuana doesn't mean they will quit smoking cigarettes. masterbation is the base form of sexuality and will always play a part, imo.

>but it doesn't work like that...if i want i can get myself off
>today the same way i did when i was 11 yrs old.
>
>>porn is raising the bar of expectation.. once you experience
>>more and more stimulating sex
>
>^^ those statements don't relate. porn != experiencing
>stimulating sex. porn != stimulating sex. i've had enough
>stimulating sex and watched enough porn to know the
>difference.
>
-------------->^^i understand that watching it doesn't necessarily mean you will physically experience it.. but it does mean that the thoughts of possibly experiencing it will be much more in the forefront of your brain than if you never saw it at all.. that is the very nature of "fantasy". these aren't blanket statements im making, btw.. obviously not everyone walks the line between fantasy and reality.. but the "drug effect" that sex has, can allow one to participate and/or consider more risky behaivor..

>, everything will always be
>>compared to that..
>
>i compare the movies i've seen to other movies i've seen. i
>compare real live sexual experience to other real live sexual
>experiences. i bet most guys do the same thing.
>
> the bar continues to get raised until two
>>people making love isn't enough to get you off anymore..
>
>naw.
>
>>i have a feeling that it contributes to cheating.. when
>>"normal" and due to what its compared to, boring, sex isn't
>>satisfying
>>enough and there is a plethora of girls gone wild milling
>>around the sidelines askin "dontcha wish your girlfriend was
>>a freak like me?"
>
>1. Girls Gone Wild is relatively boring porn.
>2. guys cheat b/c they can.
>3. i've heard from women who have been w/men who were cheating
>that the guys didn't want to do anything outside the realm of
>'normal'. the women actually expected the opposite...that the
>guys would want to swing from chandeliers and do all the other
>things their wife won't do (© Joe) but that wasn't the case.
>
---------->^^i was certainly not mentioning girls gone wild to throw it into the realm of porn.. my point being the behaivor of these girls (which is more and more prevelant in every place) contributes to the OPTIONS.. porn went from being a highly taboo and underground thing to normal mainstay of american culture. the brilliant (and honest) chris rock said, "men are only as faithful as their options".

>>porn has the power to desensitize us.. the more we watch the
>>more it takes to get "high". our tolerance gets higher
>>and higher..
>
>yes...in the context of porn this can be true. i noticed
>myself veering off into pretty specialized fetish material for
>a few months and wondered if it meant vanilla porn wouldn't do
>it for me anymore. thankfully i was able to get back to
>vanilla stuff. now i find i go through phases where i want
>vanilla and others where i want it more hard-core or fetished.
> sometimes i'll go through multiple phases in a day or a week.
>
------------>^^and thats all im saying.

>>thats the silent danger. at some point no one will be able
>to
>>satisfy us anymore. then what is left?
>
>that's so bleak. i'm glad i don't have that outlook.
>
------------>^^i dont have that "outlook" persey, although i do know from personal experience that it takes a lot more to get me off than it use to.. i almost HAVE to fantasize during sex sometimes to get myself to the point of real arousal. i know that if i entertained all my fantasies in reality, or if i watched porn more regularly than i do, it would all contribute to the growing of that issue. and like i mentioned above, i watch porn, i enjoy it, it turns me on.. but im fully aware of the risk. thats all. just acknowledging that there is some risk. thats a smart way to look at it, imo.

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
To change, we must face the dragon of our appetites with another dragon... the life-energy of our Soul...

>-------------->^^i understand that watching it doesn't
>necessarily mean you will physically experience it.. but it
>does mean that the thoughts of possibly experiencing it will
>be much more in the forefront of your brain than if you never
>saw it at all.. that is the very nature of "fantasy". these
>aren't blanket statements im making, btw.. obviously not
>everyone walks the line between fantasy and reality.. but the
>"drug effect" that sex has, can allow one to participate
>and/or consider more risky behaivor..

is that necessarily a bad thing?

a man sees an act in movies and wants to try it w/a woman. he liked it. what's the problem? that now the woman feels like she has to do that thing everytime she has sex w/the man? that problem can be solved by talking, can't it?

it seems the author would prefer it if the man never saw the act in that movie and never introduced it to the woman so she wouldn't have had to feel any pressure to perform the act. i dunno how i feel about that. i don't think there has to be anything wrong w/ppl learning new things about themselves and sharing those things w/their significant other, even if they learned that thing about their self by watching porn. and i don't agree w/the premise that once a person discovers they like to do __ they will have to do __ every time they have sex in order to get off. i know ppl who are into anal-fisting and they don't have to engage in fisting every time they have sex in order to be satisfied. fisting is but 1 part of their sexual expression that they find fulfilling.

>---------->^^i was certainly not mentioning girls gone wild to
>throw it into the realm of porn..

LOL

my point being the behaivor
>of these girls (which is more and more prevelant in every
>place) contributes to the OPTIONS..

i don't get it.

porn went from being a
>highly taboo and underground thing to normal mainstay of
>american culture. the brilliant (and honest) chris rock said,
>"men are only as faithful as their options".

i don't understand the link between porn and cheating.

are you saying porn introduces ppl to acts their partners won't perform and that leads to cheating?

>>yes...in the context of porn this can be true. i noticed
>>myself veering off into pretty specialized fetish material
>for
>>a few months and wondered if it meant vanilla porn wouldn't
>do
>>it for me anymore. thankfully i was able to get back to
>>vanilla stuff. now i find i go through phases where i want
>>vanilla and others where i want it more hard-core or
>fetished.
>> sometimes i'll go through multiple phases in a day or a
>week.
>>
>------------>^^and thats all im saying.

i don't think so. you implied the continuum works 1 way...that a person goes from enjoying vanilla porn to more hardcore porn and that in time the vanilla won't do anymore. i said something else...that i went from vanilla to hardcore/fetish and then back to vanilla and now back and forth between them. i can still be content watching vanilla though i've been exposed to hardcore/fetish.

>>that's so bleak. i'm glad i don't have that outlook.
>>
>------------>^^i dont have that "outlook" persey, although i
>do know from personal experience that it takes a lot more to
>get me off than it use to..

my sexual horizons have broadened. i do things now that i wouldn't have done 10 yrs ago b/c i know more about myself now than i did 10 yrs ago. i don't see it as a bad thing...and i can still be satisfied doing what i was doing 10 yrs ago too.

i almost HAVE to fantasize during
>sex sometimes to get myself to the point of real arousal.

oh. sometimes i do and sometimes i don't. it depends on how i feel about my partner, how i feel about myself, and how i feel about what we're doing.

i
>know that if i entertained all my fantasies in reality, or if
>i watched porn more regularly than i do, it would all
>contribute to the growing of that issue. and like i mentioned
>above, i watch porn, i enjoy it, it turns me on.. but im fully
>aware of the risk. thats all. just acknowledging that there
>is some risk. thats a smart way to look at it, imo.

hmm. i guess. i don't see it as risk...meaning i'm not necessarily scared of what i learn about myself and my desires by watching porn.

>a man sees an act in movies and wants to try it w/a woman. he
>liked it. what's the problem? that now the woman feels like
>she has to do that thing everytime she has sex w/the man?
>that problem can be solved by talking, can't it?
>
>it seems the author would prefer it if the man never saw the
>act in that movie and never introduced it to the woman so she
>wouldn't have had to feel any pressure to perform the act. i
>dunno how i feel about that. i don't think there has to be
>anything wrong w/ppl learning new things about themselves and
>sharing those things w/their significant other, even if they
>learned that thing about their self by watching porn. and i
>don't agree w/the premise that once a person discovers they
>like to do __ they will have to do __ every time they have sex
>in order to get off. i know ppl who are into anal-fisting and
>they don't have to engage in fisting every time they have sex
>in order to be satisfied. fisting is but 1 part of their
>sexual expression that they find fulfilling.

----------->^^as i said, none of my comments were all-encompassing or blanket statemements.. its great to learn more about yourself and experiment and all that.. its just about making sure you have ~balance~. and balance tends to be very elusive in life. i wouldn't tell people never to try marijuana, as it can be a very enlightening and fun (natural) experience.. UNLESS they overdo it.. blah blah blah addiction blah blah blah trapped blah blah blah cause issues.. just BE AWARE of the risks. thats all.

> my point being the behaivor
>>of these girls (which is more and more prevelant in every
>>place) contributes to the OPTIONS..
>
>i don't understand the link between porn and cheating.
>
>are you saying porn introduces ppl to acts their partners
>won't perform and that leads to cheating?
>

---------->^^nah.. and its not a blanket statement. porn=cheating. no.. but it CAN be a side effect of the 'culture' of pornography. i dont agree with a lot of what the author in the original post said, and the notion that women dont get off b/c of it.. whatever. its more that the hypersexualization of people leads to a generally more promiscuous society (generally generally generally speaking).. meaning that the whole girls gone wild culture, which is now the norm on college campusus across the country (and leaking into highschool, you've seen the home videos on the news of the highschool parties with girls grinding eachother and making out in front of the boys).. the whole porn culture is a major (if not THE major) contributer to the desensitizement (lol) of younger people.. the fact that you can get porn on your freakin cellphone now.. every damn commercial after 9pm is *sexy voice* "you want hot sexy fun with young singles in your area? text SEXY to 66512 on your cellphone right now and..... " its a hypersexualized society we are in.. broads (and guys) are down for "whatever".. hence more OPTIONS for cheating than ever before.

ya dig?

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
To change, we must face the dragon of our appetites with another dragon... the life-energy of our Soul...

that's why men have more options when it comes to cheating?

i dunno about that. that's a pretty big reach i think.

that's why men have more options when it comes to cheating?

i dunno about that. that's a pretty big reach i think.

that's a bad analogy. crystal meth, for example (like most real drugs) , actually overload our bodies with an overproduction of dopamine and endorphins. sex doesn't even come close to this as it operates within our bodies' normal range of dopamine and endorphin production.

it's also a bad analogy to imply that sexual experimentation qualitatively abuses our experiential relations to others or that it desensitizes us in the manner that a drug like crystal meth does. the physiology isn't really equatable.

and equating it with a proclivity to cheat ignores much of what is being said in this post: that a lack of honest communication goes a lot further in a damaging a relationship than porn ever could.

porn is only the scapegoat when one refuses to look at real causes of relationship issues wrt to sexual intimacy.

The Sig Below:
"I was told, 'You can be anything you want, kid,' " he once told an interviewer. "When you hear that often enough, you believe it."

www.myspace.com/ryendavidmusic
or
http://tinyurl.com/9u9nm

eat sweets or carbs. still people keep shoveling them in and are as fat as fuck and yes i'd say addicted. some to the point where they'll kill themsevles with food.

The Sig Below:
"I was told, 'You can be anything you want, kid,' " he once told an interviewer. "When you hear that often enough, you believe it."

www.myspace.com/ryendavidmusic
or
http://tinyurl.com/9u9nm

>that's a bad analogy. crystal meth, for example (like most
>real drugs) , actually overload our bodies with an
>overproduction of dopamine and endorphins. sex doesn't even
>come close to this as it operates within our bodies' normal
>range of dopamine and endorphin production.
>
>---------->obviously im not making a literal parallel. just google "sex is a drug" and see that i didn't invent this theory. yes the endorphins, etc may not be at the level that heroine produces, but any activity that produces dopamine and the like can become compulsive.. overeating is another widespread addiction, second only to sexual addiction.

>it's also a bad analogy to imply that sexual experimentation
>qualitatively abuses our experiential relations to others or
>that it desensitizes us in the manner that a drug like crystal
>meth does. the physiology isn't really equatable.
>
>---------->im talking more about extremes.. and im talking about actual physical experimentation rather than just watching it. so you tell me if you start having 3somes for a while and that it wont effect the way you view sex? that you wont, conciously or subconciously, compare other "normal" sexual experiences to whatever your pinnacle experiences are?

>and equating it with a proclivity to cheat ignores much of
>what is being said in this post: that a lack of honest
>communication goes a lot further in a damaging a relationship
>than porn ever could.
>
>------------>and people have had trouble with honest open communication long before porn existed.. so all it does is ADD to the issues. there are a lot of women who would (and do) flip out if they find out or catch their husband with porn.. and many men hide it as well. thats another example of addictive tendancies.

>porn is only the scapegoat when one refuses to look at real
>causes of relationship issues wrt to sexual intimacy.
>
>------------>fyi.. i watch (and enjoy) porn. ;)

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
To change, we must face the dragon of our appetites with another dragon... the life-energy of our Soul...

HOLY SHIT! It's not this fucking complicated

Scenario 1:
Guy (with GF) is watching the game. His dick gets hard (for whatever reason). Looks at his girl, she's not in the mood, asleep, sick, on period. Guy goes to comp/dvd stash, pulls out a flick, jacks off, continues watching the game

Scenario 2:
Guy (with GF) is watching the game. His dick gets hard (for whatever reason). Looks at his girl, she's wearing nothing but his wife-beater. She kisses him. Dick gets even harder. They have sex. Depending on what happens, he either falls asleep with her, or kisses her goodnight after the smash and goes back to finish watch the game

Scenario 3:
Guy (with no GF) is on his computer, looking at porn. A girl calls, says she might want some lovin. Guy leaves, computer is on standby

Bottom line: 99% of guys aren't gonna turn down women for an avi/wav/mpeg file or a dvd.

this maybe t.m.i. but fuck it. i've wondered if my exposure to porn has caused me to place expectations on the women i've slept with. most wants and expectations, fair or unfair, come from experiences with past partners. i enjoy the pornstar treatment as well as the next man, but ol' girl i was breaking off in college taught me that i liked to get head a certain way. another taught me that i appreciated a chic who swallowed. another taught me that i did mind seeing a lil jism drool. with another i learned how much i liked giving good oral. with another, i learned that i enjoy giving a good massage.

i've wondered what expectations i've gotten from porn. i think none. i'm sure many others do. but i see it as simply a spectacle. abusive sex doesn't appeal. neither does cum swapping chics. jacking off on someone's face doesn't appeal. also gotta add that because of the violent shit i'm seeing now, it's no longer a good spectacle. i can't watch the "throat fuckin', slapping and spitting.

I mean did she ever say her way was working for her? No.
Cuz it ain't. Ladies, step your game up. Scratch that, plenty of women know what they are doing and don't feel threatened by celluloid.
I'll be the first to admit I watch too much porn but I also know my sex life got better after all of that watching. That lady needs to get her ass ate something fierce.
Sex is supposed to be innovative, it's a canvas.
Porn didn't densisitive me, I'm hornier now than ever and have some damn standards. If she wack, she wack. Same goes for men. I think more pressure is on men in the sack then women anyway.

And has this woman seen a porn lately? Lots of them broads is ok to borderline gruesome. So why do I watch? Cuz they know how to take the dick and I can appreciate a woman who can take a dick and throw it back. I'm peaking and still aspire to throw better dick. So what's wrong with wanting a partner that can keep up? Nothing.

And her part about her veiled friend is pure BS. I live in a country where women veil, and they are not getting down like that. I think it's cool in theory that a woman does that for a man but in a place where there is cultural pressure to veil, the sex is not better and more than likely worse.
Prostitution is big here, the only place men can get a blowjob and hit it from the back is at the brothel. And all of my female counterparts, who are American, have had major problems with harrassment, not just catcalls, but groping and assault. So no, I can't co-sign this article. I think it's very limited in scope and reality.

Eat the digdawg!

that's the same thing i am saying. you watch a porn you can learn from it. shit i know when i watch some porn like watching girl on girl, you can tell when the women like it. anyway i look at their technique it helps you step yo game up. i ain't saying you leran from every porn, but hell for every ten you might learn from one.
for me any way i didn't even keep porn. then a young woman brought one to my crib we was watching it and she was talking bout what she liked etc.

that was the first porn i ever had at my house, funny a woman gave it to me.i think porn should really liberate women as far as what can be talked about. iam far more likely to watch porn alone but if i am watching it with someone it's a woman.

It's a woman talking about men and porn, two things that women rarely understand or even seem to want to at times.

However I see the truth in some of this. From my personal life I see how looking at porn everyday makes you not want to have the sex you've been having with your SO. And yes if you go to porn to feed your sexual appetite you could be full and pass on the real thing. I have personal evidence of this, but here's the flip side...

On average Men have higher libidos than women and I shudder to think what some married men did before porn when their prudish wives had a headache that lasted for weeks or months. I think you could make the argument that porn may have kept marriages together as men didn't make the very visible mistake of cheating on their wives with a co-worker, friend, or hooker which would really complicate things. Instead we log on and get off and that's it.

As we progress our society is evolving men are embracing different roles in the home like taking care of the kids and helping out more with the housework. Women are able to be more open about their needs emotionally and sexually, however very few are allowing that kind of openness from men. Through porn we may discover something we would enjoy only to find out that it is branded "un-natural" or "unrealistic" by this authors standards? Where's the equality there?

And this idea that her friend who covers her hair ownly for her husband has this erotic. highly sexualized environment in her bedroom is VERY unlikely. I don't think that community has anyone teaching these women how to do the tricks in bed that men love because that kind of teaching goes against their prudish nature.

A partnership is a partnership and each partner has the right to request something from their partner no matter how out-of-the-box the partner thinks it is.

more open, all this shit wouldn't be as much of an issue. in england they can see titties in the newspaper.

*because* we spend so much time suppressing primal urges, the shit manifests all sideways. so the same society that stigmatizes women breastfeeding in public is DIRECTLY responsible for all the triple anal farm teen shit.

peace & blessings,

x.

sigless for the summer, y'all.

>more open, all this shit wouldn't be as much of an issue. in
>england they can see titties in the newspaper.
>
>*because* we spend so much time suppressing primal urges, the
>shit manifests all sideways. so the same society that
>stigmatizes women breastfeeding in public is DIRECTLY
>responsible for all the triple anal farm teen shit.

LOL @ "all the triple anal farm teen shit"

*blames "two words"*


The Sig Below:
"I was told, 'You can be anything you want, kid,' " he once told an interviewer. "When you hear that often enough, you believe it."

www.myspace.com/ryendavidmusic
or
http://tinyurl.com/9u9nm

peace & blessings,

x.

sigless for the summer, y'all.

The Sig Below:
"I was told, 'You can be anything you want, kid,' " he once told an interviewer. "When you hear that often enough, you believe it."

www.myspace.com/ryendavidmusic
or
http://tinyurl.com/9u9nm

peace & blessings,

x.

sigless for the summer, y'all.

n/m

is frightening.

Good grief.

Totally negates the expression of female sexuality and instead diminishes that element as merely a reflection of man's desire.

Totally ignores the influence of massive gender role transformation that has occured in the last 40 years.

The inclusion of the example of her friend having to cover herself up--as some sort of object of ownership to her husband--in order to preserve the sanctity of sex??? I want to punch her for that.

>The inclusion of the example of her friend having to cover
>herself up--as some sort of object of ownership to her
>husband--in order to preserve the sanctity of sex??? I want to
>punch her for that.

you are my hero.

The Sig Below:
"I was told, 'You can be anything you want, kid,' " he once told an interviewer. "When you hear that often enough, you believe it."

www.myspace.com/ryendavidmusic
or
http://tinyurl.com/9u9nm

>The inclusion of the example of her friend having to cover
>herself up--as some sort of object of ownership to her
>husband--in order to preserve the sanctity of sex??? I want to
>punch her for that.

A ridiculous crock of shit.

on all points.

I got sad when I read that article, and even sadder when I saw mad people co-signing.

with any factual analysis.

I'm not seeing any empirical evidence in here that men were more attracted to "normal" women pre-porn. Or that porn is tied to any change in men's attitudes toward "normal" women.

All she's got is what she thinks, and a couple discussions with some college kids. Which is fine, but it's not much of an argumnent.

.

Because it's a dumb argument made by someone who's not a man, but yet can tell them how they think

brought up some really interesting points.

i have a few barely related, barely coherent reactions to the article and the discussion.

i don't feel pressured by porn. i feel relieved by porn. the normalization of formerly taboo sexual behaviors means that i get to be who i am and do what i want in the bedroom without being afraid of being judged as any number of terribly unflattering titles that would have been bestowed upon a woman who engaged in such behavior in years past. not to say that there aren't still men out there (hiya doc claw) who would recoil at my tastes, but if i have a general idea of how open you are, i can at least bring it up in discussion to get your take on it.

i didn't really start watching porn until after i'd been having sex for a while, so i can't say that it was my sex educator. but i was smart enough to seek out the information that i wanted. as more experienced adults, we scoff at the notion of porn teaching the how-tos of sex. but how do the youngins know that it's *not* the best source? i'll agree that there is porn that's not so bad in this regard, because that's what i watch, but there is also a dizzying amount of woman-as-aesthetically-pleasing-cum-receptacle footage out there, and these kids aren't all gonna know the difference. olu and poetx elaborated on this idea. but i think in any discussion with people who are just figuring the whole thing out, the message has to get across- know yourself, pay attention to your partner, talk. there is no magic video game combination.

low self-esteem is poison. "we can't compete and we know it"..!? but you know what.. that doesn't come from porn. it's reinforced, sure, but that's not where it comes from.

on that note.. i realized recently what my viewing habits were probably doing to my subconscious expectations of men in a potentially negative way. not in terms of the kind or duration of sex- but in terms of the people that were having it. the bodies. my own taste in men varies widely. there's not one particular build i'm always after. i'm also not a size queen. the dick sizes in porn would be completely undesirable to me in real life- BUT. there's a message being sent to my brain, over and over again. because i don't see a lot of normal men naked, just like many of us don't see many normal women naked (i'm talking about in life and in representation in media), these are the proportions that are being written into the mental definition of naked man. i think this could be a setup for some uncomfortable cognitive dissonance. and i *do* think that that kind of thing is something that affects all of us, men and women, on a subconscious level, and i think we need to be aware of it instead of denying it. that doesn't mean we should stop getting our cinematically inspired self-love on.. just that we should think about what else is going on.

i'm still (and always) looking for more mya lovely links if anyone has them.

*settles in*
~~~~~~~~
I would rather maim than kill
Hurt than maim
Intimidate than hurt
Avoid than intimidate.
~~~~~~~~~

The Sig Below:
"I was told, 'You can be anything you want, kid,' " he once told an interviewer. "When you hear that often enough, you believe it."

www.myspace.com/ryendavidmusic
or
http://tinyurl.com/9u9nm

~~~~~~~~
I would rather maim than kill
Hurt than maim
Intimidate than hurt
Avoid than intimidate.
~~~~~~~~~

after skimming mind you

and while she is generalizing and going on impressions
based off of what goes on on these boards and who i see in here commenting in comparision with who comments in the porn/tits/ass posts

i don't know
what the expectations for men are specifically
i do know in general they are unrealistic
i do know statistics for marriages and couples are lower

i do think that us society has a unrealistic expectations for relationships, body types and sex

i wonder if she has a point regarding the effect of porn images
on men and their expectations. I can't dismiss what she brings up out of hand, i do question her specific points but i can't deny out of hand that images in general have an effect on a person's realistic expectations and there has been some impact

a large part of society is based on sex and sex appeal and i guess the question is how much does porn influence mens interpretation of what is sexy? i think it has a heavier influence than many are giving it credit for in here.

i think a kinsey type study is needed
~~~~~~~~
I would rather maim than kill
Hurt than maim
Intimidate than hurt
Avoid than intimidate.
~~~~~~~~~

either a woman or a man who's never had raw intercourse wrote this

FOH

real as in non-porn-industry women
regular, no disrespect to porn-stars

but i agree that overstimulation can lead to lack of interest in general
but watching porno isn't stimulating every sense that actual sex is stimulating so that makes a difference too

but i mean if u think about it, being away from another sexual body/image/feeling in weeks and suddenly getting some, that shit's intense.

...like others have said she doesn't even support her opinions well...i've never known any dudes who would prefer to watch porn rather than fuck thier SO unless the sex is really wack...

using a bunch of women who wanna scapegoat porn as the problem in their lacking sex lives is silly...

...and the poster tryin to discredit SW's opinion cause he's gay is laughable..

Andrea Dworkin is DEAD. I hope she wasn't spotted a few nights ago. Damn.

Dworkin and Elvis.

The Sig Below:
"I was told, 'You can be anything you want, kid,' " he once told an interviewer. "When you hear that often enough, you believe it."

www.myspace.com/ryendavidmusic
or
http://tinyurl.com/9u9nm

Add my brand new myspace page:
http://www.myspace.com/insightclopediabrown
http://www.myspace.com/dumhi
http://www.youtube.com/group/okayplayer
R.I.P. 3rd i

.

point is, yatch, it was typed a year ago

and i happened to type it

nekked male coming out of the shower?
no?
well then
there's your answer
~~~~~~~~
I would rather maim than kill
Hurt than maim
Intimidate than hurt
Avoid than intimidate.
~~~~~~~~~

no explanations

just give the lady her cookie and we'll be on with it.

of her foresight
my eyelashes curl in admiration
my nostrils flare in appreciation
~~~~~~~~
I would rather maim than kill
Hurt than maim
Intimidate than hurt
Avoid than intimidate.
~~~~~~~~~

in your thinking.

what do you want a cookie for again?


FREE CHAI VANG!

YOU'VE READ MY FILE NIGGA (c) Jack 'Mufuckin' Bauer

http://rjcc.stumbleupon.com - what I'm looking at

www.hdbeat.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

"Thirty years ago, simple lovemaking was considered erotic in the pornography that entered mainstream consciousness: When Behind the Green Door first opened, clumsy, earnest, missionary-position intercourse was still considered to be a huge turn-on."

I mean last time I checked, sexual exploration was a good thing for women too.

This article has a couple of points floating around in it, but a lot of it is crap.

www.soul2020.com
www.myspace.com/chopsteak
http://chopsteak.blogspot.com

you went home thinking about it
that even for a second you might could have mushed your face in between two middle age boobs
and like it a whole lot - bubs

when it just makes sense that every man and woman will have different wants, different ways to be satisfied

...i can see her point

i think porn is part of a larger social beast...
distancing people from sex itself, setting standards for it

there are so many posts here that are like "if a girl doesn't...drop her"

ain't nothing about, if she cares for you
why don't you try and see why she doesn't want to do that
respect that she's not comfortable with everything
it's all about your pleasure, and your comfort. and noone, male or female, should be that self centered---it's what masturbation is for.

i guess it comes from the fact that in general, men don't really respect women. and all these guys aren't your assumed bad guy with slicked back hair and a painted moustache...a lot of them are pretty good people. but they don't have to respect women. i'm not sure they've been taught. and i don't think it's innate.it's crazy how many ways men assume power without even noticing it.

but don't call them on it--then you hate men and you don't get any and you were ugly anyway.

because of the power structure, men's porn consumption doesn't reinforce women as people, just women as sex.

and we are sex...and so are you...i mean, it's how we all got here

at the same time, male female relationships are extremely unhealthy and chaotic

i dont think they've been healthy, for the most part, but since the feminist movement, i feel like women have changed dramatically, while men try to hold on to what's not coming back.

i know this rambles, but it is what it is.

>i dont think they've been healthy, for the most part, but
>since the feminist movement, i feel like women have changed
>dramatically, while men try to hold on to what's not coming
>back.

though i'd like to add that society still tries to mold men into in their gender stereotype of the chest thumping testosterone spraying he-man

god forbid a man cries or show any of the softer emotions
with that don't dare be a sumbissive sexually
~~~~~~~~
I would rather maim than kill
Hurt than maim
Intimidate than hurt
Avoid than intimidate.
~~~~~~~~~

>when it just makes sense that every man and woman will have
>different wants, different ways to be satisfied
>
>...i can see her point
>
>i think porn is part of a larger social beast...
>distancing people from sex itself, setting standards for it
>
>there are so many posts here that are like "if a girl
>doesn't...drop her"
That goes both ways. There was a post that says if a man dresses a certain way it's a bad sign and he needs to be dropped...or if a man doesn't __________ then drop him...that shit goes both ways

>ain't nothing about, if she cares for you
>why don't you try and see why she doesn't want to do that
>respect that she's not comfortable with everything
>it's all about your pleasure, and your comfort. and noone,
>male or female, should be that self centered---it's what
>masturbation is for.

>i guess it comes from the fact that in general, men don't
>really respect women. and all these guys aren't your assumed
>bad guy with slicked back hair and a painted moustache...a lot
>of them are pretty good people. but they don't have to respect
>women. i'm not sure they've been taught. and i don't think
>it's innate.it's crazy how many ways men assume power without
>even noticing it.
Wow...just wow.
You can't be a good person and not respect women...that wouldn't make the man a good person

>but don't call them on it--then you hate men and you don't get
>any and you were ugly anyway.
I don't understand

>because of the power structure, men's porn consumption doesn't
>reinforce women as people, just women as sex.
Men's porn consumption represents fantasy and a high libido. There's little to no correlation at all that a man that watches porn thinks of women as just sex
As a matter of fact, a lot of the "players" that think of women as sex don't watch porn at all (or very little)

>and we are sex...and so are you...i mean, it's how we all got
>here
>
>at the same time, male female relationships are extremely
>unhealthy and chaotic
I agree with this...but to put it on porn is a stretch to say the least

>i dont think they've been healthy, for the most part, but
>since the feminist movement, i feel like women have changed
>dramatically, while men try to hold on to what's not coming
>back.
I can partially agree with some of this. The problem is that women don't know what they want, and men don't know what women want...and nobody is willing to talk about it. And when some women do tell some men what they want, certain men are too selfish to give it to them.
The biggest downfall between men and women is communication. There are too many misunderstandings between the 2, if they ever get around to talking.

>>when it just makes sense that every man and woman will have
>>different wants, different ways to be satisfied
>>
>>...i can see her point
>>
>>i think porn is part of a larger social beast...
>>distancing people from sex itself, setting standards for it
>>
>>there are so many posts here that are like "if a girl
>>doesn't...drop her"
>That goes both ways. There was a post that says if a man
>dresses a certain way it's a bad sign and he needs to be
>dropped...or if a man doesn't __________ then drop him...that
>shit goes both ways

and that's stupid.

>>ain't nothing about, if she cares for you
>>why don't you try and see why she doesn't want to do that
>>respect that she's not comfortable with everything
>>it's all about your pleasure, and your comfort. and noone,
>>male or female, should be that self centered---it's what
>>masturbation is for.
>
>>i guess it comes from the fact that in general, men don't
>>really respect women. and all these guys aren't your assumed
>>bad guy with slicked back hair and a painted moustache...a
>lot
>>of them are pretty good people. but they don't have to
>respect
>>women. i'm not sure they've been taught. and i don't think
>>it's innate.it's crazy how many ways men assume power
>without
>>even noticing it.
>Wow...just wow.
>You can't be a good person and not respect women...that
>wouldn't make the man a good person

It depends on what your measure of respect is. most men think they do respect women. does dr. king cheating make him a bad man? does the black power movement's overwhelmingly sexist attitude make it a bad thing to have happened?

>>but don't call them on it--then you hate men and you don't
>get
>>any and you were ugly anyway.
>I don't understand

>>because of the power structure, men's porn consumption
>doesn't
>>reinforce women as people, just women as sex.
>Men's porn consumption represents fantasy and a high libido.
>There's little to no correlation at all that a man that
>watches porn thinks of women as just sex
>As a matter of fact, a lot of the "players" that think of
>women as sex don't watch porn at all (or very little)

i never said it was the only factor. and i simplified the argument. it' a bit more complicated. but i feel like women feel the need to perform for a man...to make him feel needed.

>>and we are sex...and so are you...i mean, it's how we all
>got
>>here
>>
>>at the same time, male female relationships are extremely
>>unhealthy and chaotic
>I agree with this...but to put it on porn is a stretch to say
>the least
>
>>i dont think they've been healthy, for the most part, but
>>since the feminist movement, i feel like women have changed
>>dramatically, while men try to hold on to what's not coming
>>back.
>I can partially agree with some of this. The problem is that
>women don't know what they want, and men don't know what women
>want...and nobody is willing to talk about it. And when some
>women do tell some men what they want, certain men are too
>selfish to give it to them.
>The biggest downfall between men and women is communication.
>There are too many misunderstandings between the 2, if they
>ever get around to talking.

uh, i think a lot of women do know what they want. i don't really understand what you're saying? it's not about talking about it always, either. it's about listening and responding, changing behavior, changing the way the world works. more than just "communication"

How do you make a claim about what porn does to men's perception of women without talking to any men?

Honestly, she sounds like a bitter, single, older women. Her comments
on how the girls in there 20's shave their pubic hair,

>"In my gym, the 40-year-old women have adult pubic hair; the twentysomethings have all been trimmed and styled."

Her story about her "friend" who became Orthodox read like it was out of some corny romance novel

>"I will never forget a visit I made to Ilana, an old friend who had become an Orthodox Jew in Jerusalem. When I saw her again, she had abandoned her jeans and T-shirts for long skirts and a head scarf. I could not get over it. Ilana has waist-length, wild and curly golden-blonde hair. “Can’t I even see your hair?” I asked, trying to find my old friend in there. “No,” she demurred quietly. “Only my husband,” she said with a calm sexual confidence, “ever gets to see my hair.”

When she showed me her little house in a settlement on a hill, and I saw the bedroom, draped in Middle Eastern embroideries, that she shares only with her husband—the kids are not allowed—the sexual intensity in the air was archaic, overwhelming. It was private. It was a feeling of erotic intensity deeper than any I have ever picked up between secular couples in the liberated West. And I thought: Our husbands see naked women all day—in Times Square if not on the Net. Her husband never even sees another woman’s hair.

She must feel, I thought, so hot"

She doesn't even sound like she has ever even watched porn,

>"They can’t compete, and they know it. For how can a real woman—with pores and her own breasts and even sexual needs of her own (let alone with speech that goes beyond “More, more, you big stud!”)—possibly compete with a cybervision of perfection"

She sounds like she's upset that her age is over. Porn doesn't kill the libido. It's a get-by. I watch porn and I have a girl friend. I don't even have the desire to watch porn when she's around, it only holds me over when she's not around. This whole article was slanted. Most women don't like or understand men watching porn. I've never heard of a man turning down a woman for porn. NEVER! I can barely even imgine it.

Random Fem: You in the mood? I wanna fuck.

Bamma Guy: Fuck that, I got that new Pinky flick downloaded!

What kind of nonsense is that?

The portrayal of women in the media has long over exposed men to attractive women. Nowadays you can't go anywhere without seeing a 10 at least 10 times during the day.

It might be a billboard

It might be print.

It might be porn too.

But the fact of the matter is that where we used to see truly average women daily and could tell who was above average....average has shifted to being more attractive. And that has nothing to do with the recent study about how there will be more attractive people in teh future.

To get back to the subject of porn, yeah...if you are going out onto the net or the video store to find the perfectly primed girl with fake boobs, collagen, and makeup on her ass not only does your perception of what is attractive get morphed but your expectations of what sex will be can get morphed as well.

Key word: can.

There is porn in existence of skinny ass dudes rolling around in flour, butter, eggs, and milk with behomth super sized big beatufiful women.

How often are you rolling around in food products whilst having sex? and i don't mean chocolate, strawberries or honey.

Let's dial it back a notch. There has been a recent trend of smacking women and gagging women during oral sex. As a kid if that's all you see...that can form performance expectation of what sex is. And pray it's not some young virgin with an overhormoned kid who thinks he's jake steed. She'll end up laying there and taking it not knowing she can voice her disproval.

In short...yeah that shit factors in. And with each generation the norm of what is acceptal will grow fainter and fainter.

I agree with the general sentiment of how sex is viewed in our culture, but to blame it on porn is just stupid.

In fact, I think it's actually mainstream, All-American media representations that have de-mystified the beauty and intensity of true erotica. We live in a World that sticks double-entendres in Disney flicks and sells sex in camera commercials.

Sex has, for all intents and purposes, become just another store brand, to be wrapped in Gap, rapped about in drop-tops, and sold to whoever is naive or rich enough to buy.

If anything, porn is the last and final wall holding up the illusion that sex is a private function when, in fact, it ceased to be so quite some time ago.