spin-off from the gd post.

But what's your take on the rising "hip hop intellectual".

I think it's generally bullshit.
It's a hustle that people without any skills (or brains) are using to get over. Dare I use the dub P?s Poverty Pimps, just updated with Cups and 28"s!

one
k. orr

community college... i woulda been all over those easy credits


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heheheh i wish they had it there too when i was there.

...which is why it pretty much is

yup...cause instead of being relevent...it'll be just history

>yup...cause instead of being relevent...it'll be just
>history


You can swim in the Sea of Knowledge and still come out dry. -Norton Juster

“This is why we don’t have nice stuff!” -My band teacher, to the drummers throwing chimes

If what ya'll say is true, then no relevant literature can be created nowadays, that's a popular class. It's as if everything has already been said, I guess.


You can swim in the Sea of Knowledge and still come out dry. -Norton Juster

“This is why we don’t have nice stuff!” -My band teacher, to the drummers throwing chimes

you can't teach hip hop you must live it ... and like the others say on this post ... if its in a class it's over unless it's done in the fashion that 9th is doing it ... teaching the younger generation where it came from yhea but hip hop as a whole ... no sir ... can't see that happening and being a success ...

I definitely see your point. I think it would best serve as a way to introduce relatively unknown acts to today's kid. But it seems (when I was at UCLA anyway) as a vehicle for alot of not very dynamic professors to blabber on about VERY boring and old PC garbage. Id rather a kid learn why Rakim is a great WRITER as opposed to why Sista Souljah is a great example of a particular social phenomenon.

Have y'all heard of this? They're giving scholarships to a smallish group of incoming freshman who have demonstrated skills in the "urban arts," focusing on spoken-word but including dance, visual art, singing, etc..

This fall, there'll be 15 of these students here-- they can major in whatever they want, but being in the program allows them to minor in "the urban arts." To get that minor, they'll be taking classes from various disciplines: dance, theatre, sociology, etc.. They'll also form a travelling troupe of performers, playing gigs, getting paid, and spreading the word about the program.

Now i DEFINITELY have reservations about how hip hop is discussed in academia (and about the umbrella term "urban arts"), but it's hard to be mad at 15 kids (and many more in the future, as this is only the pilot semester) getting scholarships to go to a major university and study what they love. I think it's far from a perfect program, but it's hard for me to find concrete things to hate on here (and i've tried).

I think hip hop in academia can take many forms. I know when i hear those words together i immediately think of some white grad student writing a paper on Mos Def or a classroom full of kids learning about Public Enemy out of context.

But i think things like this can be positive, if they're handled correctly.

i know that's a big "if."

But i'm reserving judgment until this semester is over. As of now, things look great. I know some of these students, staff and professors, and they're very cool.

in any context.

ha.

Outside of saying "you had to be there" .. how would you set up the discussion on PE .. what would you have them read-up on / study before presenting PE's music?

>I think hip hop in academia can take many forms. I know when
>i hear those words together i immediately think of some white
>grad student writing a paper on Mos Def or a classroom full of
>kids learning about Public Enemy out of context.
>
>But i think things like this can be positive, if they're
>handled correctly.


http://djprimetime.tripod.com
http://www.myspace.com/theformularadioshow

of the Hip Hop Generation Conference. At that time a couple hip hop seminar classes were taught inspired by our conference. i never got a chance to take the class, but i did do an independent study with the professor to get credit for being one of the main directors of the conference. at the time i was excited that a seminar class would be focused on hip hop history/music/culture...but i can see what folks are saying above about having it taught in college. my friends who took the class seemed to have pretty positive experiences, but were not convinced they wanted more than a seminar class offered each semester.

Rotating:
Sean Price - Master P
Masta Ace - Disposable Arts
Skyzoo - Corner Shop Classic
Jay Electronica
Buff1 - Pure
The National - Boxer

seems like a crock
I can't stand some of these cats like Michael Eric Dyson
comparing Pac to Malcolm. c'mon

the actual art is hella open for study.

nobody respects hiphop as art tho. niggas always tryna make it out to be some sociopolitical abstract, but hiphop produces concrete things that merit study as much as any other music.

if they have classes on tai chi, rock & roll 101, history of jazz, film analysis......a class on hip-hop ain't a stretch. Once something becomes as prevalent in the pop culture mainstream as hip-hop has, this is just a byproduct.

And if I was a college student just looking to get a few credits and was up to date on my core courses, I'd take whatever class on hip-hop they were offering......and then cause trouble the entire semester and generally start arguments to antagonize the professor who I'd probably swear I knew more on the subject than.

I think my film studies courses were some of my most worthwhile courses I ever took.

I took a 'History of Jazz' course because it was easy credits. What a waste...

While I think that studying hip hop in a classroom setting is a bit far-fetched, that's probably because I know and understand hip hop. I will say that studying and criticizing and breaking down popular culture and art and music and film and literature helps to build critical thinking, which can be applied beneficially to everything.


-------------------------
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do we write off "hip hop intellectuals" because:

a. whenever hip hop is examined in that context, by that "type" of person, they're bound to get it wrong because they're outsiders, or because of other cultural reasons, or because of whatever.

b. the specific individuals we define as hip hop intellectuals, by and large, don't know what they're talking about. and are opportunistic. and are annoying.

these are two pretty different questions.

>do we write off "hip hop intellectuals" because:
>
>a. whenever hip hop is examined in that context, by that
>"type" of person, they're bound to get it wrong because
>they're outsiders, or because of other cultural reasons, or
>because of whatever.

That happens and that's expected. Some old dude trying to get his scientific method on still imports his values into the data collection and hypothesis building.

What is supposed to be the antidote to that, is the 2nd wave of hip hop scholars who grew up on hip hop, and now want a place @ the academy.

If OKP is any indication...
If SOHH is any indication...

Hip Hop scholarship will be dominated by people who are pretty much on that underground and/or boho tip, with occassional nods to the very top of the mainstream. I.E. cats who would rather listen to Common wreck shit, but have a few words for Lil Wayne. It's like the Lil Chris listeners don't go to college to become professors in hip hop studies. (make all the jokes you want, go to a black college,or any college for that matter, and see them folks dance to the most "ignorant" shit out there. Prolly protest it if the price was right though.)

In essence their scholarship reflects their record collection. (And best believe it's vinyl)

Take the 2 primers, Mark Anthony Neal's Book and Jeff Chang's book.
And just compare that to the hip hop you experience on a regular basis.

A lot of folks (especially the ones who take a hip hop class) take the view that hip hop is this shiny happy music made by brown peoples (and cool whites) that was then corrupted by evil corporate interests. It was all Afrikan pride (with a K) until corporations figured out how to make a buck off of it. And of course then we started seeing all the gangstas, pimps, and hustlaz (emphasis on the az).

^^^I seriously hate people like this. I feel sorry for their children. They should be subjected to one of them Australian kidnap the babies type shit.

But then again most folks don't ride with my platform's cornerpiece either, "Hip Hop is horrible and been so, deal with it".

>b. the specific individuals we define as hip hop
>intellectuals, by and large, don't know what they're talking
>about. and are opportunistic. and are annoying.

Take Dyson. Now I personally don't believe he knows what he's talking about when it comes down to specifics. But most of folks on Dyson's level are really using hip hop as a metaphor or in some cases window dressing. (I won't go into the activist/researcher angle, that's old and dead)

I never get the sense that he wrote about Tupac, because he admired the records, or because he was interested in the Icon and what it meant to black America.

He's really working at a high level of abstraction, and hip hop is just a tool for him to make the points he wants to make. So he's not really ever wrong...which in itself is troubling.

But that kinda scholarship is not hip hop studies.

It's not really about hip hop, the people, or the culture.
It's really about a certain demographic of the rap listening audience.

>these are two pretty different questions.

yeah
k. orr

at least as I see it.

>Hip Hop scholarship will be dominated by people who are pretty
>much on that underground and/or boho tip, with occassional
>nods to the very top of the mainstream.

>In essence their scholarship reflects their record collection.
>(And best believe it's vinyl)


>A lot of folks (especially the ones who take a hip hop class)
>take the view that hip hop is this shiny happy music made by
>brown peoples (and cool whites) that was then corrupted by
>evil corporate interests. It was all Afrikan pride (with a K)
>until corporations figured out how to make a buck off of it.
>And of course then we started seeing all the gangstas, pimps,
>and hustlaz (emphasis on the az).

In particular I'm thinking of the prevailing (on OKP and in some academic circles at least) view that blues was in and of itself a socially conscious, uplifting music.

People confuse the fact that it took balls to make the music with the fact that the music, like most folk musics before and since (and I'd include hip hop, at least in its earliest forms, in this) deal/dealt with, and frequently celebrated, similar 'horrible' (to use your word) subject matter. I want to sit people down and play 'She Stabbed Me With An Ice-Pick' for them.

>But then again most folks don't ride with my platform's
>cornerpiece either, "Hip Hop is horrible and been so, deal
>with it".

wtf? you mean, a dingo?

>^^^I seriously hate people like this. I feel sorry for their
>children. They should be subjected to one of them Australian
>kidnap the babies type shit.

I forget the name of the act, but the government, as I understand it, removed aboriginal children from their parents/families to "civilize" them.

gotcha

i 100% agree that it should not be taught in classes. incorporated into strudies of arts, music, history or social relations word, but as an isolated area of study NO. this whole hip hop intellectual movement is reactionary, typical and lack a defined methodology and dynamic discourse. it's without fail some of the most boring writing i've come across and i agree with many of the ideas headz have already posted, especially that this obsession with making list like the mtv thing, or validating like classes on college campuses signals the arts demise or decline.

i want to write an essay about this but ill leave it at that

i am indifferent about this subject. Although he seems crazy and un-useful to have a Hip-Hop themed class, it makes sense today because the music is everywhere, it's a major influence on the youth, and there are A LOT of misrepresentation of the music and culture itself. Hip-Hop is PE # 1 for White America. I say why not.

At UT, the classes that dealt with it had waiting lists.

"excited about learning"...

I sat in on one linguistic class, and another English class.

I remember listening to my high school Idol talking about what he wanted to do with his hip hop class. And it sounded good when I was in college.

I think about it now and it doesn't make sense.

one
k. orr

and your telling me rap cant be a class??

even if your saying theres no artistic merit... the history and lineage of the culture itself can make up more than a 13 week class.

__________
I don't like the beat anymore because its just a loop. ALC didn't FLIP IT ENOUGH!

Flip it enough? Flip these. Flip off. Go flip some f*cking burgers. (c) Kno

Hip-hop needs to be in the streets son. You wanna learn about hip-hop? Take your ass to the record store, simple as that. Hip-Hop 101 should be you front and center at a b-boy jam.

what do people write essays/presentations about?

my problem with most hiphop writing is there's an unrealistic appraisal of what significance/effort is involved in creating the music

it's 2007 and there is no 'guitar tab' for hiphop, there's no agreed on definition of 'cadence.' no one seems to want to evaluate hiphop as music, they want to jump straight in with the socioconsciouspolitical mumbo jumbo

Sometimes
- turntablism

Usually it's a liberal arts class
- history sometimes
- lyrical analysis for social things
- socio/urban studies - ie what are these people doing.

The fact that you dislike that thing is actually making me think it could be a good idea!

But seriously, to keep up on the "sociological" changes as evidenced by the music, you'd have to be up on everything all the time.

one
k. orr

i'm all for this.

Check out NEW Soul music at: www.myspace.com/starbeing

i love music!-THE MIGHTY O'JAYS

is hip-hop not music to you?
___

myspace.com/spiritequality

"the aim of an argument, or of discussion, should not be victory, but progress" - Joseph Joubert, essayist, 1754-1824

See "why hip hop is not music" post somewhere here in the lesson.

thanks,
k. orr

if hip-hop is not music, what is it exactly? stop being ridiculous. better yet, duck the obvious jab and distinguish hip-hop from other forms of music. which you probably can't do, so rather than ducking the jab, you fall on the floor and play dead till the ten-count is over. what a discussion board...
___

myspace.com/spiritequality

"the aim of an argument, or of discussion, should not be victory, but progress" - Joseph Joubert, essayist, 1754-1824

But hip hop doesn't have to be music at all.

*ends your argument with 1 word*

graffiti.

*closes off your antagonistic participation*

*does victory back spin, beats Spirit at his one game, as usual*

one
k. orr

>if hip-hop is not music, what is it exactly? stop being
>ridiculous. better yet, duck the obvious jab and distinguish
>hip-hop from other forms of music. which you probably can't
>do, so rather than ducking the jab, you fall on the floor and
>play dead till the ten-count is over. what a discussion
>board...
>___
>
>myspace.com/spiritequality
>
>"the aim of an argument, or of discussion, should not be
>victory, but progress" - Joseph Joubert, essayist, 1754-1824


leaning back like The Matrix (c) them boys from Hustle Skwad

wow.

i'm actually stunned. that was bad. you're either sleep-deprived or inebriated.

we initially limited the discussion to music study above. if you wanted to discuss the study of non-music elements of hip-hop, your initial reply should have said so, but you have a horrible tendency towards intellectual dishonesty and an aversion to answering follow-up questions that borders on pathological.

you've basically avoided the main question, which is why can some musical genres be legitimately studied in a college environment but hip-hop music cannot. you can't answer the question, so you try to get snarky and pretend as if you didn't understand the context of the original question. obviously (or arguably, depending on your school of thought) hip-hop has non-musical elements, but anyone with a basic understanding of english would know that my initial question was implicitly referencing the musical elements of hip-hop.

the funny thing is, i seem to remember you arguing once that graf shouldn't even be recognized as an element in hip-hop, which makes your answer all the more ridiculous. since you like to shift your argument and seem to hold no actual core principles, i suppose it is pointless to argue with you. continue on.

___

myspace.com/spiritequality

"the aim of an argument, or of discussion, should not be victory, but progress" - Joseph Joubert, essayist, 1754-1824

>wow.
>
>i'm actually stunned. that was bad. you're either
>sleep-deprived or inebriated.

You know i've gotten to Mr. Apex when he goes for the ad hominems.

>we initially limited the discussion to music study above.

I took your strawman and said hip hop isn't music.
You came back trying to push it into the music box.

Now you're trying to save face.

I love it.

if
>you wanted to discuss the study of non-music elements of
>hip-hop, your initial reply should have said so, but you have
>a horrible tendency towards intellectual dishonesty and an
>aversion to answering follow-up questions that borders on
>pathological.

I'm a pathological liar.

>you've basically avoided the main question, which is why can
>some musical genres be legitimately studied in a college
>environment but hip-hop music cannot.

I don't think hip hop is music anymore.

>you can't answer the
>question, so you try to get snarky and pretend as if you
>didn't understand the context of the original question.
>obviously (or arguably, depending on your school of thought)
>hip-hop has non-musical elements, but anyone with a basic
>understanding of english would know that my initial question
>was implicitly referencing the musical elements of hip-hop.

Right, it's my mistake because you're not explicit.

Blame the reader for your poor draftsmanship.

*quotes some stupid legal canon at this point for extra yuks*

>the funny thing is, i seem to remember you arguing once that
>graf shouldn't even be recognized as an element in hip-hop,

And?

>which makes your answer all the more ridiculous.

That you're trying to compare my arguments in some other thread to this one?

Are you trying to push me into some kind of consistency box?

C'mon playboy, do better than that.

It's small minded, and I know you're sharper than that.

since you
>like to shift your argument and seem to hold no actual core
>principles, i suppose it is pointless to argue with you.
>continue on.

Well don't let the door knob hit ya,
k. orr

I'm very surprised at the tone of this post; so often posters here (not you, k) cry about how the Establishment refuses to recognize the artistic merit in hip hop and how unfair that is; and now that you see a movement that could asist greatly in that recognition, you decry it? Odd.

Anyway, to summarize some vibes I pick up from this post and elsewhere as reasons people might object are:

-the quantification and strict defining of hip hop, which can be seen as a limiting factor;
-the fact that most hip hop intellectuals are dweebs;
-the underlying fear that hip hop will not stand up to the scrutiny usually reserved for forms like jazz or classical;
-the fact that 'hip hop academia' might sacrifice research/argument standards in favor of PC conclusions;
-the study of hip hop as an ethnomusicology subject (where it's been studied for at least 15 - 20 years) further enforces the idea that hip hop is not a part of mainstream or pop culture, but rather some sort of wild tribal music to be fetishized by academics;
-the idea that if you're studying it in an academic setting, you can't be living it.

So k, if you were arguing against teaching hip hop classes in college, what would your argument be?

Alternatively, if you were forced to teach a class, what would its focus be and how would you go about it?

But this is like a 2 part post

HH intellectuals means
- Jeff Chang

and it means
- Mike Dyson.

I've got objections to both.

I think I might have signalled somewhere in this post that I was referring to Turntablism 101 or something. That may be my error.

But there are objections to it.

one
k. orr

>I'm very surprised at the tone of this post; so often posters
>here (not you, k) cry about how the Establishment refuses to
>recognize the artistic merit in hip hop and how unfair that
>is; and now that you see a movement that could asist greatly
>in that recognition, you decry it? Odd.

From their perspective, the mainstream recognition

That recognition is often not for "what we are", but for "what they like about us".

I don't know if that's a subtle distinction, but the idea is that if Will Smith and Freeway are up for "the best rapper out of philly" Grammy (Black Thought was snubbed again)

- you wouldn't want Freeway to win because he's "street"
- you wouldn't want Will Smith to win because he's cheesy

You would want some real recognition of both of their styles.

And that never really seems to happen.

And i'll throw this in, After Ms. Jackson Dropped, Dre was on one of them celebrity shows super-geeked cause all the Hollywood types knew his record and would sing him the chorus everytime they saw him -

That's not the kind of mainstream recognition that the people want.

>Anyway, to summarize some vibes I pick up from this post and
>elsewhere as reasons people might object are:
>
>-the quantification and strict defining of hip hop, which can
>be seen as a limiting factor;

The Damajafication of hip hop?

I go back and forth on that one.

>-the fact that most hip hop intellectuals are dweebs;

Possibly. It could be that they weren't "in the streets" or "in the crowd", they were in the library.

>-the underlying fear that hip hop will not stand up to the
>scrutiny usually reserved for forms like jazz or classical;

I ain't said that, and most of the riders for it, will say that it does match up.

Me, i'm against the whole comparison to begin with.

>-the fact that 'hip hop academia' might sacrifice
>research/argument standards in favor of PC conclusions;

That's a concern.

>-the study of hip hop as an ethnomusicology subject (where
>it's been studied for at least 15 - 20 years) further enforces
>the idea that hip hop is not a part of mainstream or pop
>culture, but rather some sort of wild tribal music to be
>fetishized by academics

Yup, that's a concern as well.

>-the idea that if you're studying it in an academic setting,
>you can't be living it.

Not so much for me, but many folks are on that "hip hop is something you live"

>So k, if you were arguing against teaching hip hop classes in
>college, what would your argument be?

1) the academy does not deserve it
2) they don't have the ability to research it
3) what research they will do, will be wrong headed and lead to bad scholarship
4) that bad scholarship continues to enforce harmful ideas about the music (PE good, NWA bad and Selling Out Bad, Staying True - good)

The apex-esque question is

"Isn't a bad attempt to study hip hop better than no attempt at all?"

No it's not.

I may even go as far as to say, hip hop will be better off if it dies with us. I may say that, just not sure yet.

one
k. orr

>Alternatively, if you were forced to teach a class, what would
>its focus be and how would you go about it?


leaning back like The Matrix (c) them boys from Hustle Skwad

do you think it's *impossible* to study hip hop in an academic manner that would be suitable to you?

Or do you just think it hasn't been done yet?

Obviously nothing is going to be perfect right off the bat, but if it never gets started...

(Side note... I've argued that hip hop requires a different approach for appreciation/musicological standards, and usually get either shouted down or ignored... what about a class that attempted to approach hip hop on its own terms?)


>That recognition is often not for "what we are", but for "what
>they like about us".

Well. That would be poor study, wouldn't it?

>I don't know if that's a subtle distinction, but the idea is
>that if Will Smith and Freeway are up for "the best rapper out
>of philly" Grammy (Black Thought was snubbed again)
>
>- you wouldn't want Freeway to win because he's "street"
>- you wouldn't want Will Smith to win because he's cheesy

So they give it to G. Love, right?

>You would want some real recognition of both of their styles.
>
>And that never really seems to happen.

I'm not sure what you mean here... 'recognition of their styles' itself implies an academic-style scrutiny.


>That's not the kind of mainstream recognition that the people
>want.

What people are we talking about here?


>The Damajafication of hip hop?
>
>I go back and forth on that one.

I usually have nothing to contribute to his posts of that ilk, but they're always interesting to read.

>>-the underlying fear that hip hop will not stand up to the
>>scrutiny usually reserved for forms like jazz or classical;
>
>I ain't said that, and most of the riders for it, will say
>that it does match up.
>
>Me, i'm against the whole comparison to begin with.

You haven't said that. I don't know about the 'comparison'; as far as I'm concerned hip hop comes with a completely different set of aesthetics, skills, techniques, values, etc., and so to study it from the same perspective as you study classical is kind of doomed.... you need to retool.

>>-the fact that 'hip hop academia' might sacrifice
>>research/argument standards in favor of PC conclusions;
>
>That's a concern.

Cuiriously: did you see the 'Hip Hop World' or something like that article in Nat'l. Geographic a few months back? I appreciated the sentiment but disagreed pretty strongly with much of the article.


>>So k, if you were arguing against teaching hip hop classes
>in
>>college, what would your argument be?
>
>1) the academy does not deserve it

huh?

>2) they don't have the ability to research it

why not?

>3) what research they will do, will be wrong headed and lead
>to bad scholarship
>4) that bad scholarship continues to enforce harmful ideas
>about the music (PE good, NWA bad and Selling Out Bad, Staying
>True - good)

I tend to agree in theory with the last two, though I'm not really educated on the subject. However, you seem to be putting forth the idea that it CAN'T be done well, and I don't know that I agree with that.

That said, as is probably obvious, of course I'm coming from an outsider's perspective anyway, and a tendency to approach music that is new/different to me in an academic/ethnomusicological way. But thanks for discoursing with me on it.

>do you think it's *impossible* to study hip hop in an
>academic manner that would be suitable to you?

In an "academic" manner...I don't know.

Can it be studied? I think it can.

>Or do you just think it hasn't been done yet?

I don't think they're capable.
I honestly don't think they have the critical faculties in order to do it.

>Obviously nothing is going to be perfect right off the bat,
>but if it never gets started...

And it never should (c) some simpson ending.

>(Side note... I've argued that hip hop requires a different
>approach for appreciation/musicological standards, and usually
>get either shouted down or ignored... what about a class that
>attempted to approach hip hop on its own terms?)

I think the class format rejects hip hop on its own terms.

And I think Dove said it best when she said/paraphrased, that the idea that you could even record something and that something be hip hop was alien. Some writer said something about hip hop back in the day being like a subway ride or a basketball game.

I guess you could get post modern and ask, "can anything really be studied if it's done out of context. Hell, even in context"

All those ponderings aside, I don't know if you could build a class that would really do it. Aside from "independent study"...haha

>>That recognition is often not for "what we are", but for
>"what
>>they like about us".
>
>Well. That would be poor study, wouldn't it?

Of course, but would it ever be recognized as such?

The books and papers that are heralded now are co-signed by people like Krs or Kool Herc. The ideas that hip hop is x,y,and z. (like the 4 elements) - is already poor scholarship - and it is pretty much the basis, and will always be the basis, because essential questions are not asked. And essential questions aren't asked, because they are not thought of in the first place.

>>I don't know if that's a subtle distinction, but the idea is
>>that if Will Smith and Freeway are up for "the best rapper
>out
>>of philly" Grammy (Black Thought was snubbed again)
>>
>>- you wouldn't want Freeway to win because he's "street"
>>- you wouldn't want Will Smith to win because he's cheesy
>
>So they give it to G. Love, right?

Well yeah.

>>You would want some real recognition of both of their
>styles.
>>
>>And that never really seems to happen.
>
>I'm not sure what you mean here... 'recognition of their
>styles' itself implies an academic-style scrutiny.

The long time hip hop fan may not have the vocabularly to describe what Freeway is doing different than Will - but they can say without question that they really are doing different things. Things that go deeper than subject matter and image, almost to intent and motivation.

Part of the real argument against snap/crunk music (stuff out of the south than only a few of us ride for) is that "party like a rock star" is not in the same universe as Crazy by Trick Daddy or any of those ac/dc breaks that Krs used. Hip Hop heads have a hard time trying to really unpack that.

>>That's not the kind of mainstream recognition that the
>people
>>want.
>
>What people are we talking about here?

They want the mainstream to come to us.

But a lot of understanding what hip hop *is*, what it means to people, comes from a whole way of life separate and apart from the records.

In a visceral sense, the folks want you to go line for line with them, and then know what those lines mean aside from the literal definitions. And that depth of understanding comes not from memorization of lines or comparison of themes between records, or watching videos.

Ultimately they want something from the mainstream that they mainstream can't possibly give them.

It's a big set up for dissappointment in my view.

>>>-the underlying fear that hip hop will not stand up to the
>>>scrutiny usually reserved for forms like jazz or classical;
>>
>>I ain't said that, and most of the riders for it, will say
>>that it does match up.
>>
>>Me, i'm against the whole comparison to begin with.
>
>You haven't said that. I don't know about the 'comparison'; as
>far as I'm concerned hip hop comes with a completely different
>set of aesthetics, skills, techniques, values, etc., and so to
>study it from the same perspective as you study classical is
>kind of doomed.... you need to retool.

And I think to some folks, that bothers them.

>>>-the fact that 'hip hop academia' might sacrifice
>>>research/argument standards in favor of PC conclusions;
>>
>>That's a concern.
>
>Cuiriously: did you see the 'Hip Hop World' or something like
>that article in Nat'l. Geographic a few months back? I
>appreciated the sentiment but disagreed pretty strongly with
>much of the article.

No, I'll hit my local library.

>>>So k, if you were arguing against teaching hip hop classes
>>in
>>>college, what would your argument be?
>>
>>1) the academy does not deserve it
>
>huh?

I.E. there should be a price to pay. And I don't mean monetary.

>>2) they don't have the ability to research it
>
>why not?

Perspective, Institutions, Conventions, a whole bunch of things.

>>3) what research they will do, will be wrong headed and lead
>>to bad scholarship
>>4) that bad scholarship continues to enforce harmful ideas
>>about the music (PE good, NWA bad and Selling Out Bad,
>Staying
>>True - good)
>
>I tend to agree in theory with the last two, though I'm not
>really educated on the subject. However, you seem to be
>putting forth the idea that it CAN'T be done well, and I don't
>know that I agree with that.

It's your choice.

And I don't think it can be done well. But more so, can't be done non-evil-ly. <- not a word.

one
k. orr

>That said, as is probably obvious, of course I'm coming from
>an outsider's perspective anyway, and a tendency to approach
>music that is new/different to me in an
>academic/ethnomusicological way. But thanks for discoursing
>with me on it.
>


leaning back like The Matrix (c) them boys from Hustle Skwad

and there was very little study of hip hop history and such which is the misconception of these classes. It was more focused on cultural movements and fighting oppression, and how the cultural movement aspect of hip hop is in play today around the world. It was a very powerful class. but as far as just saying "kool herc did this. flash did that. then this happened. and then nwa said fuck the police..." it isnt like that at all

I dont think people can really have a valid opinion on this unless they have actually taken the classes. I know where you are comming from tho, but the hip hop class I took had very little to do with the music itself, it was about the cultural movement of it, and more about equality and racial issues in this country and around the world.

we were reading Paulo Freire in that mufugga

I'd prefer the history class personally.

one
k. orr

as part of health class to the younger generation in public AND private schools.
call it, music "turn your fucking radio off" appreciation.
bastards killing music programs nationwide.

it's a subculture that has become global, has significantly impacted
American society, and it relates to a number of social/political issues

from today's media labeling Mike Vick a hip hop thug, or blaming
hip hop for dogfighting, to the issues of copyrights and sampling, to
the issue of profanity on records, to the illegality of graffiti... the
birth of hip hop out of de-industrialization and urban decay, to (of
course) social critiques within hip hop music, from 'The Message' to
'Black Maybe' etc.

or even for ENGL courses, the lyrics themselves


< * j * a * l * b * a * i * s * s * o * d * a * m * n * p * r * e * t * t * y *

FB group against the racist anti-Vick backlash:
http://gsu.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2915363123

http://www.myspace.com/des93

It really isn't.

People rapping in Brazil, Japan, and Cuba doesn't mean they're doing the same shit as cats in Pomona, Omaha, Lefrak, or Corpus Christi.

That's just bad scholarship from the jump.

And that's pretty typical of how folks approach it.

one
k. orr

But if that's the case, how then is the culture that arose in L.A. even hip hop. It's different from the culture in New York. Does that mean that NWA wasn't really Hip Hop?

_______________________________________
Now That's What's Up

For Peter Norman. He may not have raised a fist, but he damn sure lent a hand.

S.Y.L.S.B.

It's a goal post.

Didn't hip hop really end in 79?

Didn't it really end when they transitioned from the dj and the dancing audience, to mc's and spectators?

Exactly.

There's absolutely no question in people's minds about hip hop being global, when we really should be asking is it even national?

one
k. orr

But if we ask that question aren't we involved in the academic pursuit of defining, quantifying, or at the very least studying hip hop, and if so, why not in schools as well?

I don't know. I don't see any difference between studying "The Passionate Shepherd" and the "Nymph's Reply," to studying the Takeover and the Ether. Each pair is incendiary poetry, it just so happens that the second pair is set to music.
_______________________________________
Now That's What's Up

For Peter Norman. He may not have raised a fist, but he damn sure lent a hand.

S.Y.L.S.B.

>But if we ask that question aren't we involved in the
>academic pursuit of defining, quantifying, or at the very
>least studying hip hop, and if so, why not in schools as
>well?

In a practical sense
- who do you get to ask that question?
- how do you facillitate that discussion
- what do you have the students read
- what could the students possibly write
- how do you design research to ask essential questions like that, when your subjects are always trying to "game" you.

As for the question the way you asked it
- it's not the rigor that I am concerned with.

I'm not saying the logic/scientific method/do things stand up to scrutiny - in and of itself - is harmful. It may be, but I'm not taking that path.

What I am saying is that no one has or will think to ask those questions. If they were already doing it, you'd see it show up in the scholarship, in the blogs, in the newspaper reviews, in the media. (to some extent, not like Mtv news is announcing everytime someone has a hip hop thesis)

>I don't know. I don't see any difference between studying "The
>Passionate Shepherd" and the "Nymph's Reply," to studying the
>Takeover and the Ether. Each pair is incendiary poetry, it
>just so happens that the second pair is set to music.

Poetry? You think Takeover is poetry?

You're not even going to accept hip hop on its own terms, for what it is. It's not poetry. Just cause it rhymes and may on occassion use poetical elements does not make it poetry.

And using poetical style analysis to understand... "incendiary?" c'mon man - you're not even understanding what i'm saying.

one
k. orr

I see your point. I'm not wiling to go so far as to agree with it, but I understand (I think).

As far as Rap being poetry, if it's not, I've no clue as to what it's lyrical component is. In fact, I don't know how you can look at the lyrics to any song and not see poetry. It's language that's not set in prose form. If it's not poetry can the lyrics themselves be discussed.



_______________________________________
Now That's What's Up

For Peter Norman. He may not have raised a fist, but he damn sure lent a hand.

S.Y.L.S.B.

You're in shambles (c) Del.

That only goes 2 ways
- poetical devices
- themes/commentary

From a realistic standpoint, what rappers actually say may be the least important thing they do for hip hop.

And I haven't even started talking 4 elements, or sample/musical production.

Professor breaks out Ay Bay Bay vs Dance with the Devil.

What's going to make it to the test?

Suicidal Thoughts vs Machine Gun Funk vs Juicy?

There's a major predisposition so-called smart rappers and political/protest type songs. And that will only get worse, the more folks deal with rap music.

one
k. orr

...you are woefully misguided.

will only get 'worse'? lol. as if the past few years of hip-hop scholarship has somehow affected the direction of hip-hop. sigh. straw men, indeed.
___

myspace.com/spiritequality

"the aim of an argument, or of discussion, should not be victory, but progress" - Joseph Joubert, essayist, 1754-1824

>You're in shambles (c) Del.
>
>That only goes 2 ways
>- poetical devices
>- themes/commentary
>
>From a realistic standpoint, what rappers actually say may be
>the least important thing they do for hip hop.
>

Rappers Rap, I'm now completely missing your point again. Rappers BECAME the focal point. Why? What did they do that no one else involved was doing what they were doing.

>And I haven't even started talking 4 elements, or
>sample/musical production.
>

I've got little to no experience with production. I like what I like, I leave it at that.

>Professor breaks out Ay Bay Bay vs Dance with the Devil.
>
>What's going to make it to the test?
>
>Suicidal Thoughts vs Machine Gun Funk vs Juicy?

>There's a major predisposition so-called smart rappers and
>political/protest type songs. And that will only get worse,
>the more folks deal with rap music.
>

Let's say the professor breaks out Radio, or Christmas in Hollis, or The Breaks, or Rappers Delight. What's to say that any one of those songs is overly intelligent. That doesn't mean that at the time they weren't lyrically impressive.

Lyrically impressive music that has no political message does exist.

>one
>k. orr


_______________________________________
Now That's What's Up

For Peter Norman. He may not have raised a fist, but he damn sure lent a hand.

S.Y.L.S.B.

hip hop is used to criticize racism, discrimination, it's used to talk
about everyday problems, larger political issues like imperialism and
revolution

across the world you see graffiti influenced by styles based out of NYC

you have people break dancing in China. I mean, it's there.

(most of this can be found on youtube btw)

< * j * a * l * b * a * i * s * s * o * d * a * m * n * p * r * e * t * t * y *

FB group against the racist anti-Vick backlash:
http://gsu.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2915363123

http://www.myspace.com/des93

Is hip hop simply
- the act of rapping
- the act of b-boying
- the act of writing your name in aerosol

Is that all it is?

one
k. orr

_____________________________
patiently waiting for the Pumpkins to come back...

http://breakbeatproductions.blogspot.com

...be taught as a course either.

....writing, I challenge the "Hip Hop Intellectual" and I find none of them know shit. I do not have many friends or peers in what I do.

Do they engage your ideas?
Or do they continue to use their skill set to parse what you say?

one
k. orr

Back when I was doing the Politically Black thing in 2000, I was one of the few so-called "Hip Hop Writers/Thinkers" -- then folks (which I can't name out of respect to my colleagues) started seeing money from the lectures and began pimping it.

>Do they engage your ideas?

Only one did, and I THINK in the near future a debate between he and I (he's quite well known) is sure to happen.

>Or do they continue to use their skill set to parse what you
>say?
>

Some have, and I realize I'm being vague. Off line, I'd be able to share more.

Just as a question would Bakari Kitwana's Hip Hop generation fail as a text?
_______________________________________
Now That's What's Up

For Peter Norman. He may not have raised a fist, but he damn sure lent a hand.

S.Y.L.S.B.

But from what I read, yes. Fails miserably.

From what I gather, that's a textbook/syllabus reading in many classes.

one
k. orr

When I was in college I thought the concept of it was pretty ridiculous, as was the idea of writing a book about how to be an MC (which KRS-One was talking about at the time). However, senior year the course popped up, and some people I respected as MCs and hip-hoppers in gneral ended up taking it and saying it was well enough done.

So I guess it really depends on the teacher. It's just too often, he/she is a cornball, and that's where we get the negative association.

that's like learning how to ride a bike by listening to a tape.

I don't know, I don't think any teacher could really do it.
I'm not even sure a whole school of teachers could.

one
k. orr

all theory, and everything's tested in pretentious lab settings (message boards). i learned the word "pretentious" from the lesson, btw.

hip-hop classes are supposed to educate brothas about themselves and other poor minorities around the country anyways.

>hip-hop classes are supposed to educate brothas about
>themselves and other poor minorities around the country
>anyways.


it educates brothas about themselves?

You standing by that, or quoting someone else?

one
k. orr

like a couple of folks are saying in this thread

alot of black and brown folks born into hip-hop culture don't really make it to college.

i've never taken a hip-hop course in college but from what i hear they're structured like sociology or anthropology class

kinda like "Sociology 213: Black & Latino Youth Culture in 1970s New York"

@}-,-`-

War is hell, when will it end,
When will people start gettin' together again ~ Marvin Gaye

as a stand-alone class or within say a sociology class?

Just to make it interesting, i'll say

Course of study
standalone course
as part of an english, history, or sociology class.
As even a day on the topic in creative writing

Bad idea.

one
k. orr

if youre taking a history of...20th century music, for instance, i cant come up with any good reason why you wouldnt cover hip hop. even if you dont consider it music, inevitably the question of "what is music?" will come up and youll end up talking about it anyway.

Even though alot of people will object to the idea of the hiphop culture being taught in colleges and universities, the hiphoppers of today's generation really don't have a true concept or knowledge of the culture itself.

We keep stressing on people to study up on the history and the culture and the essence and so on and so on, and everybody wants to claim they know the culture but either fail in reaching others to pass on the culture or really don't know the culture in full scale just their variation of that culture.

I mean, lets be real. Alot of people today look at hiphop and get it confused with just the rap music, regardless of how popular or mainstream of how novelty or underground that music is from. And most of the time overlook all the other key elements of the hiphop culture as well as the additional elements that were tagged on as the culture evolved.

So, I am down for SOME TYPE of authentic education (keyword: "authentic"). This cry about it's not something to be learned, but live is utter bullshit, because truthfully, are you REALLY living the hiphop culture? Or happen to like rap music and wear baggy clothes? Are you being urban rebels of a society, bombing the alleys or subways with your expressionist art, or b-boying as a lively-hood or experiementing and perfecting your DJ techniques? Or are you just sitting here in this message board arguing over which rapper is wack and which rapper is wacker than that rapper? I'm not saying it have to be that fine tune, however, the culture is so satuated and watered down that there's no such true existence of a "culture" per'se. Most of the time, people speak on the music and how degenerate it become and proclaim "hiphop is dead" just off of that. Or they look soley from a corporate aspect and seeing how much money is being made off the charts (which is still mostly music related) and gauge hiphop- not as a culture, but a corporation.

So I do believe that people of today's and even yesterday's generation needs to be educated and for hiphop to keep having a future, education IS needed so kids of tomorrow would understand as well as respect the culture that we so-call "live" in. Apparently, "word of mouth" have failed us, or this ignorance that is going on in hiphop today wouldn't of existed. So having educated "professionals", someone like Davey D or Chuck D that have an unbiased understanding of not only the past, but the present as well educate those interested in understand the hiphop experience as a whole. Then I'm all for it, personally. The only worry I got is 9 times out of ten you'll get an educator that's not tuned to the entire culture or have a regional biased or so many other negative issues.

>Even though alot of people will object to the idea of the
>hiphop culture being taught in colleges and universities, the
>hiphoppers of today's generation really don't have a true
>concept or knowledge of the culture itself.

Yup.

>We keep stressing on people to study up on the history and the
>culture and the essence and so on and so on, and everybody
>wants to claim they know the culture but either fail in
>reaching others to pass on the culture or really don't know
>the culture in full scale just their variation of that
>culture.

So in order to learn about the art form, it's better to go to your university as opposed to talking to the dj's, b-boys, mc's, and graffiti writers in the place that you live?

It's better to pay hard earned money to deal with outsiders in your own "culture/sub-culture", than to take the time and threat to your ego that comes from finding and talking to insiders?

A teaching assistant understands the nuances of the "unwritten" codes of hip hop. (like if you're dj'ing a Gangstarr event, it's bad form to play Moog Indigo.) The tension between say dick riders and haters. The lack of middle ground as an aspect of much of what hip hop is about.

>I mean, lets be real. Alot of people today look at hiphop and
>get it confused with just the rap music, regardless of how
>popular or mainstream of how novelty or underground that music
>is from.

*smh*

>And most of the time overlook all the other key
>elements of the hiphop culture as well as the additional
>elements that were tagged on as the culture evolved.

Por ejemplo?

>So, I am down for SOME TYPE of authentic education (keyword:
>"authentic"). This cry about it's not something to be learned,
>but live is utter bullshit, because truthfully, are you REALLY
>living the hiphop culture? Or happen to like rap music and
>wear baggy clothes? Are you being urban rebels of a society,
>bombing the alleys or subways with your expressionist art, or
>b-boying as a lively-hood or experiementing and perfecting
>your DJ techniques? Or are you just sitting here in this
>message board arguing over which rapper is wack and which
>rapper is wacker than that rapper? I'm not saying it have to
>be that fine tune, however, the culture is so satuated and
>watered down that there's no such true existence of a
>"culture" per'se. Most of the time, people speak on the music
>and how degenerate it become and proclaim "hiphop is dead"
>just off of that. Or they look soley from a corporate aspect
>and seeing how much money is being made off the charts (which
>is still mostly music related) and gauge hiphop- not as a
>culture, but a corporation.

Yeah, we're going in different directions.

Not that I don't hear you, but it's not really what i'm addressing.

>So I do believe that people of today's and even yesterday's
>generation needs to be educated and for hiphop to keep having
>a future, education IS needed so kids of tomorrow would
>understand as well as respect the culture that we so-call
>"live" in.

So college is the place to do it?

Apparently, "word of mouth" have failed us, or this
>ignorance that is going on in hiphop today wouldn't of
>existed. So having educated "professionals", someone like
>Davey D or Chuck D that have an unbiased understanding of not
>only the past, but the present as well educate those
>interested in understand the hiphop experience as a whole.

Chuck D? Have you read his terrordomes? Unbiased?

>Then I'm all for it, personally. The only worry I got is 9
>times out of ten you'll get an educator that's not tuned to
>the entire culture or have a regional biased or so many other
>negative issues.

one
k. orr

>So in order to learn about the art form, it's better to go to
>your university as opposed to talking to the dj's, b-boys,
>mc's, and graffiti writers in the place that you live?

___

myspace.com/spiritequality

"the aim of an argument, or of discussion, should not be victory, but progress" - Joseph Joubert, essayist, 1754-1824

You'll cover a bit of it before ya finalz, anyway mozt niggaz need ta know da bazikz before learnin' somethang dat should be entertainin' to fynd out not for a clazz.

the more books on something, the deader it is

And maybe that may be the time to study hip hop, when it actually is dead.

*waits for the typical, hip hop is dead replies*

one
k. orr

..in order to determine what is worth preserving.

Not so much in musical analysis or some shallow history that states this or that happened on such and such a date. Rather, I think we can gain a great understanding of cultural production by trying to link changes in hip-hop from its inception until now to historical changes in both global and local social and economic conditions. I think a book like Can't Stop, Won't Stop does this well. Instead of just rambling on about different groups that came to be in various years, Chang tries to understand how development projects in NY and changes in politics in Jamaica helped produce a musical form that in his words "brought peace in neighborhoods where the police couldn't". I'm not saying Chang is correct (although i tend to agree with this interpretation) but what he did with this historical materialist approach was open a door for a potential discussion that could bring us closer to understanding the relationship between economic trends, government policy and the production of culture. This sort of discourse is just as important as understanding any historical or sociological topic. If we have courses that teach about reasons for the rise of Nazism in Germany or Labour movements in the United States, then we not study why oppressed and abandoned people in US ghettos developed hip-hop culture? And why not understand the social reasons that contributed to it?

> And why not understand the social reasons that contributed to it?

Nice response.

Why not?

I don't know who much of the material you've read that is about "hip hop", but this is what it's all about.

Hip Hop's only value to the academy is the social reason for its existence.

In a lot of ways, they view hip hop in that sociological way of movement development.

Macro-forces act on people and they create movements.

From there, it's just id'ing the forces and id'ing the movements, and matching up methodology.

- poor people in jamaica
- vinyl
- jamaican moves to NYC
- takes sound system idea

= Public Enemy.

What you're talking about is precisely the area of hip hop "scholarship" that needs to be shut down.

That kinda thinking isn't about hip hop, it's about atomization of the family, redistribution of work, post-civil-rights era society...

Hip Hop only comes in when they can find a line to quote.

I firmly believe you could take out those 30-40 "protest" records out of hip hop, and still have something enjoyable and interesting.

I may be the only one that believes that.

one
k. orr

>What you're talking about is precisely the area of hip hop
>"scholarship" that needs to be shut down.
>
>That kinda thinking isn't about hip hop, it's about
>atomization of the family, redistribution of work,
>post-civil-rights era society...
>
>Hip Hop only comes in when they can find a line to quote.
>
>I firmly believe you could take out those 30-40 "protest"
>records out of hip hop, and still have something enjoyable and
>interesting.
>
>I may be the only one that believes that.

i agree. there's tons of good rap records besides public enemy or other ''protest'' albums. but i don't think the point of such analysis is to find out what ''good'' rap is. or at least it shouldn't be.
sure everybody has morals and values that the music gets upheld to but that should not be play a big role if you look at the aspect of hip hop's place in society.
and i believe you could take out those 30-40 ''protest albums'' and still research if there are parallels and influence on society.

I think that the hip-hop NEEDS TO BE TAUGHT in school...

I'd rather it be high-school but I will take college...

most of these kids dont know the influence of say...Slick Rick and how he influenced rappers today in terms of story-telling...or a Melle Mel with the message...or Rakim and how he influenced the entire rap world...or Public Enemy and how they helped push the bill to make MLK day a national holiday and then put arizona on blast for frontin...( by the time i get to arizona )

there is soooo much history and data that explains how hip-hop has started and evolved...

imagine if kids know who flash was....

It depends what the class is and if the professor knows what he is talking about. In other words how much he was really involved with it. If he is a just a fan, most likely i'd give him the same credibility i'd give myself, which is not that good.

I'm a bboy so why the hell would i ever take a class learning about the roots of bboying from someone who is not a bboy...when i could just go to say the originators of the dance in my country (or my local scene) and do the same. Infinitely cheaper and more interesting.

Also in my experience a lot of hip hop "intellectuals" are toys that have no real connection to the culture of hip hop other than listening to the music. I was at Rock The Bells and kinda felt like 1/2 the crowd was like that buying those "I am Hip Hop Shirts" yet having some other dude airbrush your shit onto a shirt (Though the more likely reason was because a lot of the people came to see Rage). If dudes weren't writers, DJ's, emcees, bboy/girl, back when the movement was going on (and not wack ones, i'll take average cuz then that means they put in some work in the scene), then i feel that they have 0 credibility in teaching a course.

Just my opinion tho, no hate

Sure hip hop should be an available class to study in college.

College is for higher learning. It is for growth and development. It tries to provide an opportunity for students to become more balanced and well rounded. Offering a class on Hip Hop would be an opportunity for those who are interested in knowing about the who's, whats, wheres, and whys about hip hop to learn and become more knowledgeable about it. Hip Hop has made such an impact on the world that the institutions of higher learning should offer their students the opportunity to learn about it.

It's a class. It's not going to change or save the world. It's not going to destroy the world either. If you're interested, then take the class. If not, then don't. If the school doesn't have the interest from students to make it a full blown class, then it should at least be covered in the History of, and Music Appreciation courses.

Some are making this post way more complex than it needs be. Being offended because a class is 'offered' is bias. It's like being "upset" or in "disagreement" with a school because they offer a class on Sub Saharan Africa. If it doesn't fit your particular field of study, then don't take it. There are many electives available in college. The more that are offered, then the more value the school you are attending is offering. But, you don't HAVE to take it. If you "disagree" with whom they have teaching the class, then YOU teach it, or accept the person they have teaching it.

I'm trying to get in on it, and I'm really struggling.

I am actually battling to contribute an argument here, because some of the issues thrown up in this thread have made me feel quite ambivalent about my own position.

1. I got into Hip-Hop long before I entered the academy. I was into breakin' in 84, but my real engagement with "big-picture" Hip Hop was in '89, when I was introduced to Public Enemy, Big Daddy Kane, NWA and BDP, AFTER I was introduced to hip-house music (*chuckle*).

2. At university, I studied journalism and media studies in undergrad, completed a Masters, and I now lecture radio production at university (ASIDE: Believe me, there are countless debates about whether journalism even has a place in the academy).

3. For a long time I have wanted to write something about Hip Hop in an academic space, but it's just never been realised. I'm still trying, but largely what I have written about Hip Hop has been published in popular media.

4. Anyway, I've never felt that engaging with academic texts has really enhanced my appreciation for Hip Hop, or how I consume it. It's like two different worlds for me - academia and Hip Hop. They don't easily co-exist for me. And really, I don't feel like I know Hip Hop any better (with the exception of some good historical texts which have provided me with interesting perspectives on HH's devt), as a result of Hip Hop-related academic work.

I guess what I'm saying is totally anecdotal and related from the personal, but it does refer to a struggle within - a struggle to say something about Hip Hop in a space that I think is important, but may not necessarily be important to other people who are into / who do this thing called Hip Hop.

G'

My main issue with teaching hip hop and why the teacher is so important is because popular media does not neccesarily give the true story (they raped breakdancing). I'd rather have the truth as ugly as it may be, then some made up fairy tale. I've been to Ken Swift's classes twice and listened to his story...it is completely different than what the media paints break dancing as. I've been to lectures by Kurtis Blow, etc. I have yet to meet other originators yet, but i feel like they have given me a better historical perspective. Also the fact of the matter is the class would still be bullshit because Hip hop has such a convoluted history. The stories conflict all over the place....as Ken Swift told me something to the effect like this (don't quote this...it isn't exact)

"Believe the similarities in the stories of the originators, but after that, it's all personal opinion due to exagerration, lies, bad memory. No one is really the absolute truth, you can call me crazy if you want"

I think there is a tension.

It may be as simple as you approach your academic life differently than your hip hop life, and the 2 are so different that it is hard to bridge the gap even if you wanted to.

Most of the proponents of hip hop in college are just dismissing that/your reluctance wholesale, and are pretty much making the argument that with the right teacher and curriculum..it's all good.

I think you're gut is telling you something that your mind already knows to be true, it's just you don't have the words yet.

one
k. orr

the real knowledge about classical music (for instance) came from the great composers themselves, the great teachers, and the numerous musicians and teachers operating on a smaller scale. by the time universities wanted to offer courses in Composition, there wasn't much territory left for them to take

quest was talking about setting up some sort of hiphop 'scene' at a venue if he had 500 000 to blow (or was it 5 mill, can't remember). there is already much knowledge within the hiphop community but it is in no way centralized. i'm talking about the decade, even centuries long process whereby knowledge is consolidated and passed on or dissappears altogether

jazz/blues/orchestra, you have to be able to perform that shit to teach it, and to a certain extent, learn it and appreciate it.

the people who teach it now have never rocked a crowd, never sold units, never done MOST of the stuff (good or bad) that is celebrated in hip hop as a part of the culture.

even from a mechanical standpoint, most of the 'intellectuals' don't mix, don't rap, don't do graf, don't break and probably never did.

no university would let a teacher lecture on jazz that couldn't play the hell out of a jazz saxophone.

but because there is this yawning chasm between the PERFORMERS of professional hip hop and the PUNDITRY of hip hop, what gets taught in college is often - as you say - the KING BACKPACKER version.

until TI, BUN B and KRS are teaching courses, shit ain't legit.

(at least NCCU had PLAY and 9th teaching THEIR courses)

obviously, this is not to say that DYSON and co are not saying true, powerful things. its moreso saying that they are not TEACHING hip hop, but moreso their COMMENTARY and OPINIONS of hip hop.

i don't see the point of studying anything if your goal isn't to improve the object of your studies.

Spirit, my ace boon coon, said above that the academy can't harm hip hop.

You suggest that it shouldn't be done, unless it can help hip hop.

Do you think that it can affect hip hop?

one
k. orr

that can be dangerous. over or under emphasizing things based on one text over another.

i took a class where we read hip-hop america and vibe's history of hiphop.

they were cool but hi-hop america told you straight up it was biased. vibe's history left out epmd, the roots and regional music.

also the culture is always shifting and in flux. how could you ever really teach a difinitive course on hip-hop.

the study of hip-hop outside of a musial context will always be touchy.

i took an ets (english and textual studies) class and was one of the only black people in it. we knew more about current hip-hop than our teacher and had more insight on the culture than he did. it was okay, but basically an excuse to finally read vibe history and hip-hop america...

"studied hip hop" for much longer than your prof could.

And as a class, you prolly have more collective knowledge than he could put together.

one
k. orr

these aren't going to be (or they shouldn't be) classes where the prof
says THIS is hip hop. THIS is the definition of hip hop.

instead, they should be classes that examine elements of hip hop within
a certain context. eg. hip hop and... globalization, sexism, racism

both musically and socially/politically.


< * j * a * l * b * a * i * s * s * o * d * a * m * n * p * r * e * t * t * y *

FB group against the racist anti-Vick backlash:
http://gsu.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2915363123

http://www.myspace.com/des93

>instead, they should be classes that examine elements of hip
>hop within
>a certain context. eg. hip hop and... globalization, sexism,
>racism

I'm against this kind of analysis.

I'd much rather have a hip hop history class, where it's just recitation of dates and knowing what the hits were, than for folks to try and dissect Gangsta of Love or Blow Job Betty.

And I bet Ms. Fat Booty would get a pass!

one
k. orr

How would one approach this without making it dry? Do you start from the late 70's and just start going through releases every class? What do you include / exclude? Hip Hop has so many albums that gave the music "character" but never hit on a larger scale.

Do you assign them albums to listen to? You couldn't post links to have them listen to albums because colleges are vigilant on copyright infringement, so you would have have them buy the CD's (Itunes is a wonder right now if labels have their back catalogues in check).

Would a student be able to respond with more that "oh, we just listen to music" when asked what they do in the class?

Do you try to teach them about how to go about analyzing the music, or what to look for (as if there is a "correct" way to do this)? Do you discuss the standards that MC's are judged upon (complexity, wordplay, imagery, connectivity, story-telling, flow, vocal tone, humor, etc etc.)?

Hip hop heads in general are dismissive of any opposing idea when it comes to discussing the music. How would one get past that during a class discussion? Would the "professor" be able to set appropriate ground rules for discussions?

So many questions ... I've actually thought about "teaching" a class like this on a few occasions, or even running an after school program where I teach, but I feel it would open up too much of a liability due to content issues.




>I'd much rather have a hip hop history class, where it's just
>recitation of dates and knowing what the hits were, than for
>folks to try and dissect Gangsta of Love or Blow Job Betty.
>
>And I bet Ms. Fat Booty would get a pass!
>
>one
>k. orr


http://djprimetime.tripod.com
http://www.myspace.com/theformularadioshow

a. Hip Hop Music
b. graffitti in hip hop
c. lyrical content
d. business

etc etc

If Damaja can write treatises and essays on the mechanics of flow, or the technical aspect of drum patterns/programing or enunciation in rhyming, why can't academia approach hip hop from a scholastic pov?

Most of what he's saying is largely rejected, not just on form and substance, but even trying to attempt it in the first place.

one
k. orr

Yep.

>Most of what he's saying is largely rejected, not just on
>form and substance, but even trying to attempt it in the first
>place.
>

Cause I this was more about Dyson n'nem.

But good nonetheless.

consider this thread closed on my end, unless there are some lingering questions.

k. orr

from way back?

>But what's your take on the rising "hip hop intellectual".

of all the things to be intellectual over... then again we have wine connoisseurs...

>spin-off from the gd post.
>
>But what's your take on the rising "hip hop intellectual".
>
>I think it's generally bullshit.
>It's a hustle that people without any skills (or brains) are
>using to get over. Dare I use the dub P?s Poverty Pimps,
>just updated with Cups and 28"s!
>
>one
>k. orr

What exactly are you saying man?

(maybe I need to go to GD for the answer... *shivers*)

who upped this post anyway?

There was GD convo about Dyson, and the general displeasure that the rank and file rap listeners felt about him and his talking about rap in the public discourse.

I then made this post, that was to explore Dyson.

The title was a mistake though, cause that's all folks focused on.
I should have known that from the jump, but I'm convinced that sometimes the message gets read in addition to the title.

one
k. orr