(long... but skimmable)

many people break down hiphop into 'beats and lyrics.' this is careless though, it should be 'beats and rapping'

right now i'm concerned with the SOUND of rapping, as opposed to what the actual message of the words is

a few loose terms are usually thrown about
- flow
- delivery
- cadence

most (not all) people take flow to mean the rhythm, cadence to mean pitch, and delivery to mean the quality of the voice or else an umbrella term for all the other sound aspects

these are aight for some purposes. the main problem is they are not singular elements, but folk fall into the trap of thinking they are. really they're comprised of many sub-facets, or subsets of something else.

if you think about video games that simulate car driving/racing, you might think 'it's all just 1. steering 2. sense of speed 3. prettyness' but that doesn't even begin to capture the complexity. apparantly the most recent racer calculates everything from suspension ratios down to individual tyre temperature, and it all affects handling etc, yet earlier games achieved similar gameplay making completely different calculations.

at this point some will no doubt say i'm thinking about this rap shit too deeply, or i'm putting emceeing in a box (shout-out to Lil Roof), but in my experience if people knew better how other musicians or other writers engaged with detailed analysis/criticism they wouldn't dream of saying that. complexity is just a challenge, not a dead end.

i mean think about piano playing. ever taken lessons? the techniques are numerous
- posture, arm/wrist/hand position, dynamics, fingering, pedalling, counting, phrasing, rubato, accent, syncopation
- more advanced stuff like right-hand rubato, colouring
and it doesn't all happen at the same time necesserily. some famous pianists disregard certain aspects of technique, like Gould playing all stacatto or Horowitz playing with flat fingers

piano method is largely 'exterior' or visible whereas rapping is all interior
enough rambling though
i see it like this

- RHYTHM:
---> pattern. this is why we listen to rap, this is rap's melody. putting the words down in a definite way that the listener will recognize, esp. if you repeat it. it's like drum patterns.
---> timing. you could have the illest patten planned out for your lines but timing is the millisecond's difference that separates a great rapper from an amateur
---> flow control. (©Imcvspl) stringing patterns together for a whole verse basically. on a basic level to avoid having to stop abruptly or cram in words, but ultimately to craft brilliant verses. this one is a common reason why seemingly dexterous rappers often don't strike you as being particularly dope.
---> pacing. rapping ahead of the beat or behind it. what does that mean? the results are complex but the principle is simple - someone like Canibus tends to rhyme exactly on the beat, so his lines start exactly on the first beat of the bar each time and the rhythm fairly steady; Slim Shady era Eminem would start all his lines midway into the bar, creating a feeling of aloofness from the beat which he would then compensate for accelerating to catch back up or/then decelerating to do the same next line. good if you want to sound pensive or laid back (like you just don't give a fuck) rather than assertive/straight-talking

- TONE
---> cadence. the trend of the notes your voice actually hits. 'stick the needle to the groove and i'm forced to fuck it up, my style carries like a pick up truck' - Deck's voice clearly started high and got progressively lower. not actually much change in pitch, more just to create the impression than anything. Rakim would keep all his cadences low and controlled to create a monotone impression (wasn't true monotone though, still lots of expression in his voice). El-P, Illogic, Ras Kass use a sort of arced cadence constantly which i'm not a fan of. I think it's best used to compliment the patterns, or provide an occassional unique-sounding line
---> volume. fairly self explanatory. fluctuates all the time of course but can also be built into a cadence
---> regularity. all the stuff i described in the 'rhythm' section could be replicated just by hitting a wooden block or something. if you think of an actual drumkit though, there's usually at least half-a-dozen different drums which produce different sounds, which is much more appealing. rappers can achieve this effect by being disciplined with the pitch/tone of their words, like they've got a vocal drumkit. B.I.G. was particularly good at this I think.... 'pass that before you get your grave dug / From the main thug, .357 slug' starts with a symbol crash then has main rhymes hit with a vocal kick-drum, if you know what i mean...
---> melody. sometimes rappers start singing melodies in the middle of a rap. Myka Nine, Pharcyde... or maybe they'll 'quote' a melody from a popular song. not required practice by any means... but i thought i should list it

VOICING
---> energy. Enter the Wu Tang featured pretty high energy rapping; although Rakim is called monotone there's plenty of energy in his expression; MF Doom has a fairly low level of energy; Killah Priest is justabout true monotone. high/low energy is neither good nor bad though... and the preference of the listener comes into play too... but you've got to be master of your own energy, know what sounds good with your voice. when this fails you sound uncool, basically.
---> enunciation. can your words be clearly heard?
---> intonation. putting that little human touch into the voice to sound 'incredulous' or 'sad' or 'flippant' or 'serious' or whatever
---> accent. those southern drawls and stuff

RHYMING
---> rhyme scheme. which word positions in the lines rhyme with eachother. leaving out the 'content' side of rhyming cause we're concerned with sound here, rhyming will draw out the patterns in the line a lot
---> accuracy. how well the two words rhyme. in hiphop the rhymes are allowed to be pretty loose (compared to Broadway musicals). hard to make any rules about... but seeming lazy is not good.
---> assonance, alliteration etc. creates a feeling of intricacy or craftmanship which is easy on the ears. can also create mental impressions through sound... like 'season of mist and mellow fruitfulness'... doesn't that just SOUND like autumn? there's probably other uses but they're hard to detail.

so..... anything i missed out or messed up?

*attaches life-jacket to post*

>*attaches life-jacket to post*

you know i'll be back to this soon 'nuff.

i hope cats take this serious. i especially like how you compared with the techniques in other instrumentation, as it gives credibility that there is a musical craft in MCing, and it ain't just niggas et al talking.

Who ever said there was no technique to MCing? Thats insane.

their favorite rapper lacks technique.

>their favorite rapper lacks technique.


say word

I've always been a proponent of the idea that emcee'n at its
essence, is verbal percussion, ...much like a skat vocalist.

It all starts with the rhythm.

>(long... but skimmable)
>
>many people break down hiphop into 'beats and lyrics.' this is
>careless though, it should be 'beats and rapping'
>
>right now i'm concerned with the SOUND of rapping, as opposed
>to what the actual message of the words is
>
>a few loose terms are usually thrown about
>- flow
>- delivery
>- cadence
>
>most (not all) people take flow to mean the rhythm, cadence to
>mean pitch, and delivery to mean the quality of the voice or
>else an umbrella term for all the other sound aspects
>
>these are aight for some purposes. the main problem is they
>are not singular elements, but folk fall into the trap of
>thinking they are. really they're comprised of many
>sub-facets, or subsets of something else.
>
>if you think about video games that simulate car
>driving/racing, you might think 'it's all just 1. steering 2.
>sense of speed 3. prettyness' but that doesn't even begin to
>capture the complexity. apparantly the most recent racer
>calculates everything from suspension ratios down to
>individual tyre temperature, and it all affects handling etc,
>yet earlier games achieved similar gameplay making completely
>different calculations.
>
>at this point some will no doubt say i'm thinking about this
>rap shit too deeply, or i'm putting emceeing in a box
>(shout-out to Lil Roof), but in my experience if people knew
>better how other musicians or other writers engaged with
>detailed analysis/criticism they wouldn't dream of saying
>that. complexity is just a challenge, not a dead end.
>
>i mean think about piano playing. ever taken lessons? the
>techniques are numerous
>- posture, arm/wrist/hand position, dynamics, fingering,
>pedalling, counting, phrasing, rubato, accent, syncopation
>- more advanced stuff like right-hand rubato, colouring
>and it doesn't all happen at the same time necesserily. some
>famous pianists disregard certain aspects of technique, like
>Gould playing all stacatto or Horowitz playing with flat
>fingers
>
>piano method is largely 'exterior' or visible whereas rapping
>is all interior
>enough rambling though
>i see it like this
>
>- RHYTHM:
>---> pattern. this is why we listen to rap, this is rap's
>melody. putting the words down in a definite way that the
>listener will recognize, esp. if you repeat it. it's like drum
>patterns.
>---> timing. you could have the illest patten planned out for
>your lines but timing is the millisecond's difference that
>separates a great rapper from an amateur
>---> flow control. (©Imcvspl) stringing patterns together for
>a whole verse basically. on a basic level to avoid having to
>stop abruptly or cram in words, but ultimately to craft
>brilliant verses. this one is a common reason why seemingly
>dexterous rappers often don't strike you as being particularly
>dope.
>---> pacing. rapping ahead of the beat or behind it. what does
>that mean? the results are complex but the principle is simple
>- someone like Canibus tends to rhyme exactly on the beat, so
>his lines start exactly on the first beat of the bar each time
>and the rhythm fairly steady; Slim Shady era Eminem would
>start all his lines midway into the bar, creating a feeling of
>aloofness from the beat which he would then compensate for
>accelerating to catch back up or/then decelerating to do the
>same next line. good if you want to sound pensive or laid back
>(like you just don't give a fuck) rather than
>assertive/straight-talking
>
>- TONE
>---> cadence. the trend of the notes your voice actually hits.
>'stick the needle to the groove and i'm forced to fuck it up,
>my style carries like a pick up truck' - Deck's voice clearly
>started high and got progressively lower. not actually much
>change in pitch, more just to create the impression than
>anything. Rakim would keep all his cadences low and controlled
>to create a monotone impression (wasn't true monotone though,
>still lots of expression in his voice). El-P, Illogic, Ras
>Kass use a sort of arced cadence constantly which i'm not a
>fan of. I think it's best used to compliment the patterns, or
>provide an occassional unique-sounding line
>---> volume. fairly self explanatory. fluctuates all the time
>of course but can also be built into a cadence
>---> regularity. all the stuff i described in the 'rhythm'
>section could be replicated just by hitting a wooden block or
>something. if you think of an actual drumkit though, there's
>usually at least half-a-dozen different drums which produce
>different sounds, which is much more appealing. rappers can
>achieve this effect by being disciplined with the pitch/tone
>of their words, like they've got a vocal drumkit. B.I.G. was
>particularly good at this I think.... 'pass that before you
>get your grave dug / From the main thug, .357 slug' starts
>with a symbol crash then has main rhymes hit with a vocal
>kick-drum, if you know what i mean...
>---> melody. sometimes rappers start singing melodies in the
>middle of a rap. Myka Nine, Pharcyde... or maybe they'll
>'quote' a melody from a popular song. not required practice by
>any means... but i thought i should list it
>
>VOICING
>---> energy. Enter the Wu Tang featured pretty high energy
>rapping; although Rakim is called monotone there's plenty of
>energy in his expression; MF Doom has a fairly low level of
>energy; Killah Priest is justabout true monotone. high/low
>energy is neither good nor bad though... and the preference of
>the listener comes into play too... but you've got to be
>master of your own energy, know what sounds good with your
>voice. when this fails you sound uncool, basically.
>---> enunciation. can your words be clearly heard?
>---> intonation. putting that little human touch into the
>voice to sound 'incredulous' or 'sad' or 'flippant' or
>'serious' or whatever
>---> accent. those southern drawls and stuff
>
>RHYMING
>---> rhyme scheme. which word positions in the lines rhyme
>with eachother. leaving out the 'content' side of rhyming
>cause we're concerned with sound here, rhyming will draw out
>the patterns in the line a lot
>---> accuracy. how well the two words rhyme. in hiphop the
>rhymes are allowed to be pretty loose (compared to Broadway
>musicals). hard to make any rules about... but seeming lazy is
>not good.
>---> assonance, alliteration etc. creates a feeling of
>intricacy or craftmanship which is easy on the ears. can also
>create mental impressions through sound... like 'season of
>mist and mellow fruitfulness'... doesn't that just SOUND like
>autumn? there's probably other uses but they're hard to
>detail.
>
>so..... anything i missed out or messed up?
>
>*attaches life-jacket to post*

combining elements of the rhythm/flow with rhyme scheme and how the two interact in certain patterns recognizable by the ear, making it musical. it's really more of a tool for analysis than notation, technically, though one could theoretically figure out how the rap sounds just by looking at the analysis.

other than the fact that there would be a lot of slurs, i think traditional notation would work.

first of all, i've always had a problem with the way western notation dealt with rhythm. i think the system of note shapes is a terrible way of demonstating rhythm. it gives a very poor sense of not just note length, but measure placement, which is terribly important with rap. at the very least, it gives you some sense of patterns, but it's not very good at all for complex, syncopated rhythms, and rap has some of the most complex rhythms.

another reason is more practical: there are lots of words in a rap and it's hard to fit those all underneath a staff like that. since the words ARE the most important part of any rap, i feel one should be able to read the words fairly easily, and the most desirable system would simply illustrate what rhythmic and rhyming values the different words have as they are written fairly normally.

a third reason is because a rap typically is written around a consistent 16th note rhythm with different variations. it would be terribly redundant to write so many 16th notes over and over.

EDIT: I also want to demonstrate rhyming visually, which I do with color. it gives you an idea of how the end (and sometimes middle) of lines connect and sometimes give very interesting structures.

in the book "Coltrane" by Bill Cole, Cole breaks down some of Trane's solos into western notation to point out just how complex what he was trying to do was within that paradigm. Because you said you're doing this for more academic than practical purposes I'd highly suggest starting out on that route. In fact I think its necessary for comparison. Yes it may get visually crowded but that's the point. Within the western musical context, MC's are doing more in a bar than perhaps any other before them.

while reading about polyrhythm i found some interesting notation ideas. they use 'TUCS' notation or something, basically a grid where each box represents a unit of time. for rap you could use the boxes just to represent a semiquaver or a demisemiquaver (32nd note) each, and you could write the words and phrases inside them. the slower the phrase is spit, the fewer boxes it's written in

i agree with you that the words should be part of the notation. but i think it's also important to come to an understanding with normal notation too, even if it's cumbersome. like for instance i was thinking we need to invent a name for those little mini speed raps West Coast and Southern rappers frequently use. like when Dr Dre says 'i remember back-in-the-day...' on Let Me Ride. the other day i realized it's basically what in sheet music you'd call a 'trill'. and also there's maybe something to be learnt from the 'scansion' system developed in poetry (they call beats 'feet' and the 'time signature' if you will is like 'iambic pentameter', ie what type of feet and how many per line. and they've got a whole lot of names for poetic effects... i need to make a list of them sometime... you don't get this stuff on the internet)

>i agree with you that the words should be part of the
>notation. but i think it's also important to come to an
>understanding with normal notation too, even if it's
>cumbersome. like for instance i was thinking we need to invent
>a name for those little mini speed raps West Coast and
>Southern rappers frequently use. like when Dr Dre says 'i
>remember back-in-the-day...' on Let Me Ride. the other day i
>realized it's basically what in sheet music you'd call a
>'trill'. and also there's maybe something to be learnt from
>the 'scansion' system developed in poetry (they call beats
>'feet' and the 'time signature' if you will is like 'iambic
>pentameter', ie what type of feet and how many per line. and
>they've got a whole lot of names for poetic effects... i need
>to make a list of them sometime... you don't get this stuff on
>the internet)

...that is, the 'mini-speed raps', but if im not mistaken, they call that 'double-time'...i just never understoond why 100%.

as far as the poetical effects...

• simile: a comparison using "as" or "like" e.g., "as a great elm wallows before the storm."
• metaphor: a comparison not using as or like when one thing is said to be another.
• hyperbole: exaggeration for dramatic effect e.g., "all the perfumes of Arabia will not sweeten this (murderer's) hand".
• oxymoron: a seeming contradiction in two words put together: "parting is such sweet sorrow."
• paradox: seeming contradiction that surprises by its pithiness.
• onomatopoeia: "sound echoing sense"; use of words resembling the sounds they mean, e.g., biz buzz, humming, pant and puff.
• personification: attribution of human motives or behaviours to impersonal agencies.
• alliteration: the deliberate repetition of consonant sounds, e.g., "Build, build your Babels!"
• assonance: deliberate repetition of identical or similar vowel sounds: "the tread of the feet of the dead".
• transferred epithet: surprising association of adjective and noun e.g., "with half closed cynic eyes."
• apostrophe: an address to a person absent or dead or to an abstract entity: e.g., "Death where is thy sting?"
• antithesis: balanced contrast for special effect: e.g., "Lord of all things, yet prey to all."
• echo: repetition of key word or idea for effect.
• cadence: a sequence of sounds achieving a falling effect.
• rhyming couplet: a pair of lines which end-rhyme expressing one clear thought.
• epigram, aphorism: pithy or witty saying.
• ellipsis: a circumlocution, a round-about way of expressing something.
• euphemism: more favourable alternative name for an unpleasant or ugly thing or event.
• litotes: saying something positive by using two negatives, e.g., he's no mug.
• diction: poet's distinctive choices in vocabulary.
• rhyme: repetition of same sounds.
• rhythm: internal 'feel' of beat and meter perceived when poetry is read aloud.
• tone, mood, atmosphere: feelings or meanings conveyed in the poem; dominant feeling.
• pathetic fallacy: a transfer of human feelings onto impersonal agencies; taking advantage of coincidence to suggest causal link between feeling and event, e.g., stormy Nature mourns the death of a king."As the moon is lonely in the sky, lonely is the bush and lonely I" (Esson).

...shit is almost another post among itself.

>>i agree with you that the words should be part of the
>>notation. but i think it's also important to come to an
>>understanding with normal notation too, even if it's
>>cumbersome. like for instance i was thinking we need to
>invent
>>a name for those little mini speed raps West Coast and
>>Southern rappers frequently use. like when Dr Dre says 'i
>>remember back-in-the-day...' on Let Me Ride. the other day i
>>realized it's basically what in sheet music you'd call a
>>'trill'. and also there's maybe something to be learnt from
>>the 'scansion' system developed in poetry (they call beats
>>'feet' and the 'time signature' if you will is like 'iambic
>>pentameter', ie what type of feet and how many per line. and
>>they've got a whole lot of names for poetic effects... i
>need
>>to make a list of them sometime... you don't get this stuff
>on
>>the internet)
>
>...that is, the 'mini-speed raps', but if im not mistaken,
>they call that 'double-time'...i just never understoond why
>100%.
>

do they?
i dunno though... it would make sense to call Twista's rap style 'double-time' (he basically puts in two notes where there'd be one. doubles his speed)
but to me it doesn't make sense to apply the term to just a brief moment of music, only an entire section

>as far as the poetical effects...
>
>• simile: a comparison using "as" or "like" e.g., "as a great
> elm wallows before the storm."
>• metaphor: a comparison not using as or like when one thing
>is said to be another.
>• hyperbole: exaggeration for dramatic effect e.g., "all the
>perfumes of Arabia will not sweeten this (murderer's) hand".
>• oxymoron: a seeming contradiction in two words put together:
>"parting is such sweet sorrow."
>• paradox: seeming contradiction that surprises by its
>pithiness.
>• onomatopoeia: "sound echoing sense"; use of words resembling
>the sounds they mean, e.g., biz buzz, humming, pant and puff.
>• personification: attribution of human motives or behaviours
>to impersonal agencies.
>• alliteration: the deliberate repetition of consonant sounds,
>e.g., "Build, build your Babels!"
>• assonance: deliberate repetition of identical or similar
>vowel sounds: "the tread of the feet of the dead".
>• transferred epithet: surprising association of adjective and
>noun e.g., "with half closed cynic eyes."
>• apostrophe: an address to a person absent or dead or to an
>abstract entity: e.g., "Death where is thy sting?"
>• antithesis: balanced contrast for special effect: e.g.,
>"Lord of all things, yet prey to all."
>• echo: repetition of key word or idea for effect.
>• cadence: a sequence of sounds achieving a falling effect.
>• rhyming couplet: a pair of lines which end-rhyme expressing
>one clear thought.
>• epigram, aphorism: pithy or witty saying.
>• ellipsis: a circumlocution, a round-about way of expressing
>something.
>• euphemism: more favourable alternative name for an
>unpleasant or ugly thing or event.
>• litotes: saying something positive by using two negatives,
>e.g., he's no mug.
>• diction: poet's distinctive choices in vocabulary.
>• rhyme: repetition of same sounds.
>• rhythm: internal 'feel' of beat and meter perceived when
>poetry is read aloud.
>• tone, mood, atmosphere: feelings or meanings conveyed in the
>poem; dominant feeling.
>• pathetic fallacy: a transfer of human feelings onto
>impersonal agencies; taking advantage of coincidence to
>suggest causal link between feeling and event, e.g., stormy
>Nature mourns the death of a king."As the moon is lonely in
>the sky, lonely is the bush and lonely I" (Esson).
>
>...shit is almost another post among itself.


yeah, but there's even more terms, ones that are really useful. like i think there's one for 'rhythmic onamatapea' if you know what i mean. i've forgotten them though... cause these ones aren't readily found on websites, it's always the ones listed above

I say musicians because they don't really have the poetic license to do the stuff that they do in most of them raps. also poetry is really a written form (despite the spoken word movement) and rapping is a performance form. so it falls more in line with music. unless you want to go the shakespeare route and call albums plays in which MC's play numerous characters using rhyme schemes to turn a phrase or more. nah i say stick to music.

you gotta remember poetry is aaaaaaancient, and it's always been intended for reading aloud
a lot of poetry is written to a rhythm that you can only understand if you read aloud

and my concern is that rapping is too complex, too 'human', to be adequately described in mechanical notation
maybe we need looser terms

linguists developed a system for notating sentences. predicates, verb phrases, headwords, subclauses blablabla
problem is no one TALKS like that even though they understand those rules and write with them (in formal writing)
so creating a system for notation of conversation is a whole new challenge
conversation exist in that realm of human complexity

>I say musicians because they don't really have the poetic
>license to do the stuff that they do in most of them raps.
>also poetry is really a written form (despite the spoken word
>movement) and rapping is a performance form. so it falls more
>in line with music. unless you want to go the shakespeare
>route and call albums plays in which MC's play numerous
>characters using rhyme schemes to turn a phrase or more. nah
>i say stick to music.

and again i'll refer to the coltrane book because trane could fit 10 notes in a quarter. not the easiest to notate but possible and in doing so you only illustrate how thought out those 10 notes were not just therandom maddness everyone may think.

>do they?
>i dunno though... it would make sense to call Twista's rap
>style 'double-time' (he basically puts in two notes where
>there'd be one. doubles his speed)
>but to me it doesn't make sense to apply the term to just a
>brief moment of music, only an entire section

i don't see why not...for example, and i think this is the first time it appeared on a rap record (im probably mistaken), but d.o.c. raps double-time for a couple lines on 'no one can do it better'. see how easy that is? hehe.

>yeah, but there's even more terms, ones that are really
>useful. like i think there's one for 'rhythmic onamatapea' if
>you know what i mean. i've forgotten them though... cause
>these ones aren't readily found on websites, it's always the
>ones listed above

argh! i had a lil poetry book back in the days, it was useful for times like these...

which is what i mean by 'mini speed raps'... they don't even last a whole bar so double-time seems wrong

(just upping this thread lol)

i think...
*paging TommyWhy and Daryl_Reeves*

http://www.poeticbyway.com/glossary2.html

too long to paste in here. useful though

Tonedeff - Archetype LP © 2005






>combining elements of the rhythm/flow with rhyme scheme and
>how the two interact in certain patterns recognizable by the
>ear, making it musical. it's really more of a tool for
>analysis than notation, technically, though one could
>theoretically figure out how the rap sounds just by looking at
>the analysis.

The Sig Below:
Rule No. 1: Never Lose Money. Rule No. 2: Never Forget Rule No. 1.




http://tinyurl.com/9u9nm

http://www.zshare.net/audio/2276563bf02d52/

Casual - Styles

soundtrack for the rhyme scheme bit anyway

why can't it be writing AND delivery. i think that there's too much emphasis amongst hip hop fans that hip hop should be judged on some kind of different criteria. hip hop isn't all that different. yea, singing is different from rapping, but there are various styles of singing, just as there are various cadences and deliveries. i don't know... i just don't see that hip hop is all that different from other genres.

when people say 'hiphop is beats and lyrics' or review something in those two categories, it's stupid....

like i got a hiphop album recently that had the lyrics printed in the booklet, the album on disc 1, and the instrumentals on disc 2... according to these people i could just throw away the first disc, cause i still got the beats and lyrics haha

I think something should be mentioned about the timbral qualities of the voice. If one guy has a gravelly voice and another one a "clean" one, how do you explain that with the terms you gave? Pronounciation is the closest but it doesn't really fit. Maybe it's not that important but I have always personally felt the actual SOUND of the voice to be quite relevant in my appreciation of an mc...

yeah i sort of rushed through the voice section. most of the thought was put into the rhythm section. i remember 'timbre' was actually on my mental to-do list i just musta forgot

yeah i think 'timbre' should be in there. the general sound of the voice you're rapping in, somewhat predetermined by your natural vocal qualities. Chali 2na obviously has a deep, bassy timbre, probably his natural voice; B Real puts on that nasally voice when he's rapping, but doesn't speak like that. most rappers i think put on a voice to some extent

His talking voice is not as deep as his rapping voice.
> Chali 2na obviously has a deep, bassy
>timbre, probably his natural voice; B Real puts on that
>nasally voice when he's rapping, but doesn't speak like that.
>most rappers i think put on a voice to some extent
Yup. And I think they can make it entertaining but it cannot
sound too forced or else it just comes off as corny. I don't
think rappers put too much thought into their rapping voice
or technique. Meaning, they just do what they do. And when
they try to change it, it can came out stilted. For example,
Common has learned to rap on beat for the most part, but
sometimes he has to insert awkward pauses to maintain the meter.

said something liek 'if you listen to it carefully, the rapping is behind the beat' as if it was a mistake
but i mean, no one listens to that material and thinks the rapping is bad. in fact it was a large part of the appeal
maybe he didn't know exactly what he was doing, and now that he does he scorns his earlier naivety

i agree a lot of this happens naturally. but some of the very best rappers, technically, i've noticed they get more aware of this stuff as time goes on. and also they might know exactly what they're doing, there's just no name for it

>maybe he didn't know exactly what he was doing, and now that
>he does he scorns his earlier naivety

pretty much that. i think it was a Rolling Stone interview actually, though i'm not 100% sure. he said that on SSLP he hadn't developed his flow to the point where he could perfectly ride a beat. i think he'd focused much more on the content part of emceeing up until then, & so if he could shock & amaze, he was writing a dope verse. he didn't worry too much abt riding the instrumental. but w/ each new album, he studied the craft more & was more exposed to "riding beats" as an art...esp. being around Dr Dre a lot. & so he stepped it up on MMLP & stepped it up more on Eminem show. Eminem show was when he was finally *proud of himself* as far as his beat riding...& Encore was when he took it to a whole other level, completely abandoning content for the sake of riding beats like they had handlebars.

so yeah, he's said all that. he says he definitely cringes hearing his old material 'cuz he can't even hear the ill lyrics he's spitting: his listening experience is so bogged down by the 'amateurish' flow he's hearing. it grates.

now for ME...

i think that's stupid.

"riding a beat" has its place, but content is still where it's @ for me.

http://board.okayplayer.com/okp.php?az=show_topic&forum=11&topic_id=107687&mesg_id=107687&page=3

posted in HiTech... hilarity

these days Em sounds like he's trying to rap like people beat-box, no gaps between the words, mouth constantly in motion
i always thought his illest moments were those extended lines where he sounds like he's just about to lose the beat, but doesn't. it's like the rapping equivalent of skateboarder balancing as they grind down a long iron railing

...but it's really too bad Eminem's rapping on Encore is horrible content wise, because he really did some amazing things flowetically on that record. i remember reading an interview he did in XXL near the height of his popularity (so it was a couple years ago) where he touched on the style of flow he had developed, where he was rapping along to a specific rhythm for whole verses, i.e. 'toy soliders', where he's rappin w/ the drums pattern (i think its that track). then if you go back, there's the joint on TES, 'Superman', where he did the double-time style w/ no problem (well he did that already on 'Forgot About Dre'), and then there's the style he did on 'The Way I Am', which i finally can explain, in musical terms = rappin on the eighth notes between each quarter note...which you NEVER hear.

those organ/keyboard notes going constantly in the background, he raps in the exact same rhythm as them
they're like a couple 16th notes grouped with an 8th note. or a triplet with some syncopation.
so like you say he lands on the 8th note, which in the grand picture will be between the basic beats of the bar (quarter notes)

maybe that's why he started to do his own beats, so control the rhythm in the music like that instead of just lookin for the snare all the time.

>maybe that's why he started to do his own beats, so control
>the rhythm in the music like that instead of just lookin for
>the snare all the time.

he makes his own beats in a distinctive way, b/c it allows him a freedom to play w/ the flow. he's been known to consider most other producers terribly cluttered w/ their soundscapes, & so for his productions, he makes something very barebones & empty, almost every time. they generally never have any hi-hats & there's so much room, the emcee is given the chance to do almost anything & still sound good. he's showcased. so, yeah, i think it has a LOT to do w/ it.

he can speed up/slow down, play w/ patterns, whatever...& it sounds crazy, 'cuz the beat is a vacuum.

oh & since i haven't heard it mentioned in the post:

the craziest thing for me remains this:

(*LOL @ this post becoming a praise-Marshall circlejerk*)

i think in that same Rolling Stone interview i mentioned, he actually says sorta what homie above just mentioned, that he learned a new trick each album. i think SSLP was rapping to the snare, MMLP was rapping to the kick & the snare & Eminem Show/Encore...this was what blew my mind: he learned to rap to the hi-hats.

he based his flow on the frickin' hi hat patterns of the beat.

i listened & i found 'em, but i can't remember the tracks off tops.

but that's the kinda stuff that gives him top 25 status. & we're talking all-time.

i mean...the frickin' hi-hats.

but there is one thing i noticed the other day while listening to My Name Is (i think)
ok, he always LANDS on the snare, pretty much everyone has to do that or face wackness
but actually it's the 1st and 3rd beats that get all the emphasis. both in the beats itself and his patterns. even if he doesn't hit it exactly you hear him waiting for it

and i was thinking about somethign ?uestlove said recently, about how 'non-hip' audiences always clap on the 1st and 3rd beats rather than the backbeat (2nd and 4th). i mean that's why it's called the backbeat because traditionally it's the 1st and 3rd that are emphasized.

so i'm wondering if Eminem's mainstream success (that was probably his blow-up single, right?) has anything to do with that. SOOO many people felt Em who had never really 'got' good rapping before. and i don't think it's because he talked about stuff they could 'relate' to or spoke in an accent/slang they understood. i mean i've always been skeptical about those reasons cause they pre-suppose the mainstream actually pays attention. of course though there is still the OTHER reason ppl bring up...

>the craziest thing for me remains this:
>
>(*LOL @ this post becoming a praise-Marshall circlejerk*)

i know, right? lol...but the thing is not many rappers can do what he did, as much as he did it, what you describe below. he may suck heavily now, but he was that dude, when he was doin it.

>i think in that same Rolling Stone interview i mentioned, he
>actually says sorta what homie above just mentioned, that he
>learned a new trick each album. i think SSLP was rapping to
>the snare, MMLP was rapping to the kick & the snare & Eminem
>Show/Encore...this was what blew my mind: he learned to rap to
>the hi-hats.
>
>he based his flow on the frickin' hi hat patterns of the
>beat.
>
>i listened & i found 'em, but i can't remember the tracks off
>tops.
>
>but that's the kinda stuff that gives him top 25 status. &
>we're talking all-time.
>
>i mean...the frickin' hi-hats.

this makes me want to d/l encore...i remember bumpin it to analyze the technical-ness on it all the time and being like 'wow...this is probably the best horrible album of all time.'

...

Why you continue to underplay the weird dynamic with what they rapper is saying with how much accolade he receives, is beyond me. I warrant it's your foreign upbringing.

But far more importantly is YOU cannot describe more than 1 rapper under this regime. It's not even serviceable until you finish it.

this ground is holy,
k. orr

>Why you continue to underplay the weird dynamic with what
>they rapper is saying with how much accolade he receives, is
>beyond me. I warrant it's your foreign upbringing.

you're saying i overlook 1.content and 2.popularity (like 2Pac's) ?
is that it?
i was trying to focus on the musical/performance aspects though

>
>But far more importantly is YOU cannot describe more than 1
>rapper under this regime. It's not even serviceable until you
>finish it.
>

you mean take an MC and evaluate their rapping for every one of these qualities?
i mean i've already done this, for a bunch of MCs
i just didn't put it in the post cause it's not about any 1 rapper in particular
i was going to reply with them afterwards though, but i'm not sure people are that interested

i can't make it out
it sounds like 'a modern genius, climbing trees with the lions' or something

i haven't forgot about that post

a minor genius climbing trees with the lions we just lounge to the sound....

i'm not sure Incarnate really DOES use that many literary devices in that particular song. also i got bogged down looking up the names for the actual techniques he was using. let's see though, i have the transcription somewhere...

This break down
This breaks down
This break down was broken down
or at least, attempts were made
repackaging and selling the breakdown of a culture
cultural materialism
Let me buy my culture
Disposable identity
be what you want to be
be what they want you to be
broken down culture
flawless engineering on a social level
But even a spliced culture has a natural root
And in the end nature always wins
because through the breakdown nature manages to provide seeds for The Catalyst

A minor genius, climbing trees with the lions
We just lounge to the sounds of the breeze
through the leaves, cause that's how cool cat's be, bruh
catch the fever, like a lever, ridin a zebra, but I'm a cheetah
you aint gettin away from me, what
style is that you ask
I laugh, naturally typecast, acessing the past
to metaphorically whip that ass
you aint even get that shit but if felt like getting
kicked in the dick by a pair of timbs with steel-tipped toes
ill i whip flows, just goes to show your fucking with pros
i birthed your style when i was ten, and i didn't like it then
so i picked the pieces, and used the scraps to write my thesis
the potential underlying the fundamental principles of the art of emceeing
are the key in the lock being the true essence of the human being
but that was too deep, went back to sleep
with the hibernation in the capital minded nation
watching eagles raping my innovation
can't reveal true identification wading through commercialization
patient, knowing age's creation was deaf to the elevation which is now!

is that right

>i'm not sure Incarnate really DOES use that many literary
>devices in that particular song. also i got bogged down
>looking up the names for the actual techniques he was using.

personification

>let's see though, i have the transcription somewhere...

couple small things

>
>This break down
>This breaks down
>This break down was broken down
>or at least, attempts were made
>repackaging and selling the breakdown of a culture
>cultural materialism
>Let me buy my culture
>Disposable identity
>be what you want to be
>be what they want you to be
>broken down culture
>flawless engineering on a social level
>But even a spliced culture has a natural root
>And in the end nature always wins
>because through the breakdown nature manages to provide seeds
>for The Catalyst
>
>A minor genius, climbing trees with the lions
>We just lounge to the sounds of the breeze
>through the leaves, cause that's how cool cat's be, bruh
>catch the fever, like a LIBRA, ridin a zebra, but I'm a
>cheetah
>you aint gettin away from me, what
>style is that you ask
>I laugh, naturally typecast, acessing the past
>to metaphorically whip that ass
>you aint even get that shit but if felt like getting
>kicked in the dick by a pair of timbs with steel-tipped toes
>ill HOW IT FLOWS, just goes to show your fucking with pros
>i birthed your style when i was ten, and i didn't like it
>then
>so i STRIPPED IT TO pieces, and used the scraps to write my FIRST
>thesis
>the potential underlying the fundamental principles of the art
>of emceeing
>are the key in the lock FREEING the true essence of the human
>being
>but that was too deep, SO I went back to sleep
> hibernation in this capital minded nation
>watching EGOS raping my innovation
>can't reveal true identification WAITING through
>commercialization
>patient, knowing NATURE'S creation was DESTINED FOR elevation
>which is now!
>

It's the patterns in this joint more than the number of devices. There's almost a different run every bar but they flow into eachother like nothing.

which i didn't think was the forte of this track
but there's definitely some wild patterns in there on the other hand
i'll find the mp3 and see how it goes

ok i think this highlights how we need to get better at transcribing the rhythms of rap. it's hard cause the words distract you from the actual rhythm value of the notes. although i'm still waiting for this Tonedeff CD to arrive, maybe the system he developed will be useful

anyway, things i see in this verse:

- the first 3 lines, he sort of parses the words so that 'lions,' 'lounge,' 'sounds,' 'breeze,' 'leaves' have got a sort of floating quality, like they just hold up the flow/rhythm for a few milliseconds before it resumes. i like that

- the next like, 'that's howw cool cats be bruh, catch the fever, like a libra, riding a zebra, but i'm a cheetah' starts of the pattern that's kinda the heart of the rest of the verse. he regulates the pitch though so the last syllable of each pattern (catch the feVER, like a libRA) is lowered and stands out. the rest of the lines in the verse don't do this the same, so although they draw from the same basic rhythm/pattern, they don't sound repetitive

- switches it up here
'>you aint even get that shit but if felt like getting
>kicked in the dick by a pair of timbs with steel-tipped toes'
switches to a faster flow/pattern before returning to the previous. the effect is the next lines sound extra slow in contrast.

does it again here
>the potential underlying the fundamental principles of the art
>of emceeing

and then again in the last couple lines.
so although the beat/tempo is steady, it feels like the song is oscillating between slo-mo and fast motion.
this is the power of flow control. when you plan how each pattern compliments the next, you can orchestrate like that. assuming you've got the timing to pull it off

incarnate's timing is solid. although, i think ppl might have some trouble adjusting to him cause he uses unorthodox patterns. copping the Catalyst on the 31st regardless

lol

lol

It fills his entire 16 page booklet in his 2005 album "Archetype" and is expanded on in his DVD.

how long was he working on it? DOES it work?

seeing as you're so into technical emceeing.

Tone is a legend...

plus a triple threat:

rapping
production
singing

PLUS he does it on the side.

"i'm nice with a day job/these niggas write all day and STILL suck"
(c) Tone

As I developed my technique over the years i started to notice what works/doesn't work for me vocally. I noticed that i am a much better MC when i controll my voice and do a more laid back, minimal delivery. I also was always intrigued by Q-Tip as an MC, where his whole style was all about timed, minimal delivery. If you listen to his verses, every two bars he spits can be a chorus because of how catchy his "flow" is. I took that observation in mind while trying to develop my own sound

Q-Tip may not be spitting Monch-like ferocity or Big Pun style pattern juggling for ten bars
but his raps are always interesting to listen to
he does something unique all the time, with his minimalist approach which you don't get often in rap

the chase pt 2

keep it on the corner 'cause here comes the heat

that verse, while rhythmically minimalistic, made spectacular use of the beat

vocabulary
articulation
creativity
originality
versatility
voice
records
stage presence
sticking to themes
innovating rhythms

(taken from a praverbs post in the archives)

so all the stuff i put down only covers a tenth of his system

i think it's silly though how 'articulation' is supposed to cover all the skill invovled in actual rapping, which is hte main point, of, you know, rapping...

great strength is the rhyming i think - complex rhyme schemes that always sound good, compliment the rhythm perfectly. and were also groundbreaking for the time, and still hold up today.

rhythm wise, very solid. changes the patterns very naturally, never rushes, and can kick those double time flows/trills so well. BUT he does tend to reuse the same patterns from track to track so you know what to expect, which is cool, i guess the mentality of the day was your patterns were your footprint/signature (although... those old guys did use eachothers patterns an awful lot...), however i think there's a higher plain where that doesn't happen (see: Monch, Acey, Em...)

ppl talk about the lisp, but it's easy to make out what he's saying, plus he sounds cool IMO, along with the accent. it's always a great feature when you KNOW who it is soon as the voice comes on.

maybe where he stumbles somewhat is intonation and cadence. it all kinda sounded the same... though maybe i'm just not remembering properly.

even when he does a run where his lisp is evident each bar, he hits the lisp with such conviction he wants you to make it out. you want to make it out so that you don't even question if he said it right. did you hear it right. and you better catch it fast goes he's still going off.

with it.

I wrote a long ass response, but i'll prolly post it later.

long story short
- I think more elements could be added
- things could be clarified...

But the worst part about this, is the conclusions you draw after you define something.

"creating a feeling of aloofness from the beat " - what kinda cockamamie boffinery is that?

I think you're importing more than just the scholarly stuff you read on poetry and music, but the scholarly attitude that manifests itself as academic mind reading.

one
k. orr

>with it.
>
>I wrote a long ass response, but i'll prolly post it later.
>

please do...

>long story short
>- I think more elements could be added

possibly but i'm not sure if you caught the premise of this: i wasn't trying to describe EVERYTHING about hiphop music, but just the 'sound' element of rapping... loosely speaking, what you could tell about the rapping if it was foreign language

>- things could be clarified...
>

well fire away. i was hoping for more discussion. some of the things on the list were thought through much more than others

>But the worst part about this, is the conclusions you draw
>after you define something.
>
>"creating a feeling of aloofness from the beat " - what kinda
>cockamamie boffinery is that?
>

well if someone is 'aloof' then they SEEM detached from their surroundings, but of course aren't (ie. they're not autistic of something)

in music you can never ACTUALLY lose the rhythm/beat, cause it will sound awful, but you can give the impression of one part (eg. the rapping) disconnecting

>I think you're importing more than just the scholarly stuff
>you read on poetry and music, but the scholarly attitude that
>manifests itself as academic mind reading.
>

when writing it i slipped into the mode of addressing would-be rappers ('the way you catch the snare' etc) but that was just accidental/lazyness. really i'm putting down the different qualities which i detect, which any listener is entitled to do. of course input from emcees or other listeners, or discussion about the bigger picture is useful

>one

>>with it.
>>
>>I wrote a long ass response, but i'll prolly post it later.
>>
>
>please do...

Work got hectic before I could finish it. It's about 1/4 of the way done.

But maybe we can put together something nice from this skeleton.


+++++++++++++++++++
You’re using an outsider/academic perspective, and I think you, and anyone else who wants to study rap, should study the music in context. And that means you can’t come from an anti-septic/objective/non-hip hop pov to break down what makes the music work. It means talking to rappers, hearing what they think is important, and then looking at the music, the audience reaction, the sales, et cetera to determine if what they’re saying about the craft is true.

And that ultimately means you can’t just study the artifacts/the recordings, but study the people who produce and the people who consume. You can’t pull a Jeff Chang, if you want the truth. It means you have to be constantly testing and uncovering the premises upon which people stand. It’s recognizing that no one person, no one record, nothing alone is authoritative. All you can do is present a coherent and consistent idea of what you think is happening, and hope that the next man can come along and prove or disprove what you think.

This is how you set up your argument. You’ve got four headings, and then several related sub-headings

1. pattern
2. timing.
3. flow control.
4. pacing
5. cadence
6. volume.
7. regularity
8. melody
9. energy.
10. enunciation
11. intonation.
12. accent
13. rhyme scheme.
14. accuracy.
15. assonance/alliteration

One can argue that some of these things should be combined, things are missing, et cetera, but that’s why the list itself is moot. (moot means arguable, not that argument should cease) But the real problem is not really the list.

The list can be expanded, contracted, and reorganized. Ultimately if you’re coming up with criteria on how to explain and analyze rap, you’re going to have to run it through a bunch of songs to figure out what is workable and what isn’t workable. Almost like having a Planet Infinite/M2 excel spreadsheet to rate the rappers, and then add more columns of consideration.

The (well my) real problem is not the list, not the definitions, nor ignoring the interaction between the various elements. My problem is the conclusion that follows your definition

This is how you do it.

Element – definition of element – damaja’s rule on interpretation of the element

2 Examples

accuracy. how well the two words rhyme. in hiphop the rhymes are allowed to be pretty loose (compared to Broadway musicals). hard to make any rules about... but seeming lazy is not good.

Element - Accuracy – ok,
Definition - how well the two words rhyme
Damaja’s interpretation – “seeming lazy is not good”

That’s my problem.

First, It’s really untrue and counter to everything we know about hip hop. The vast majority of our best songs from now back into the essence incorporate all sorts of “lazy rhymes”. (based on your previous definition of laziness)

Second, and more importantly, you’re either not thinking hard about it, or you trying to push your “lazy rhyming” agenda with in post that should be neutral. (dictionaries try to be neutral)

Given, judging rappers will always be subjective and relative, but even with that murky setting, we want a language/framework to discuss rap that tries to be less subjective rather than more subjective.

Why less subjective than more subjective?

If we can agree on language, we can talk. If we can’t agree on language, we can’t talk. The whole delivery/flow discussion or lack thereof comes down to an inability for everyone involved to discuss it, because we don’t even agree with what “flow” actually is.

Getting into it further, “seeming”, “lazy”, and “good” are the real operative words.
There is something to be said about the idea that people don’t like rhymes as simple as simon, but you notice that it’s not something people pay very close attention to, given what makes the top of the charts for both Billboard and the Critics. We’ll discuss the inherent nature of writing 16 bars that leads to simple/lazy rhymes, filler lines, and the war among content, flow, and direction. To preview it, it’s very difficult to write a hot 16, where every line is necessary to be in the rap to 1) have it make sense 2) have it rhyme.

The 2nd example of Damaja’s not so good/biased conclusions after his neutral definitions.

---> pacing. rapping ahead of the beat or behind it. what does that mean? the results are complex but the principle is simple - someone like Canibus tends to rhyme exactly on the beat, so his lines start exactly on the first beat of the bar each time and the rhythm fairly steady; Slim Shady era Eminem would start all his lines midway into the bar, creating a feeling of aloofness from the beat which he would then compensate for accelerating to catch back up or/then decelerating to do the same next line

This is slightly different than the last, but the following
“creating a feeling of aloofness from the beat which he would then compensate for accelerating to catch back up”

That’s the kind of crap I expect from people who’re in undergrad and trying to impress their creative writing prof that hip hop is worthy of academic study. (FYI, the academy is not hip hop worthy…but moving on). Or type of thing you say as a 5th year senior to a freshman chick you meet in the library. (she of course sees through it)

It goes without saying that I disagree with your conclusion that changes in ‘pacing’ create a feeling of aloofness.

More importantly, is that you’re positing that a certain technique is able to cause a feeling in the listener.

That idea, “if I the rapper do X, the listener will feel Y” is beyond problematic. That may be a common sort of analysis in poetry, but it has no place in rap music. Honestly I’m not sure how English/Literature/Poetry people can discuss anything substantively when they go back and forth with that kind squishy reasoning, but as a matter of policy, we shouldn’t be importing bankrupt concepts like that into rap analysis.

But going back to looking @ rap from a functional perspective, that would be an interesting discussion. It may go beyond the fruitless, Magic Words idea.
“If I say these magic words in my rap, people will like me/do what I say”


So let’s re-cap at this moment
- I like the idea
- But I don’t like your execution of the idea
o I don’t like your general non-contextual approach
 Your focus on the sound of rapping exclusively will ultimately undermine your analysis of the vast majority of rappers.
o I don’t like the importation of foreign/alien/hostile schools of thought in interpreting the divine art.
o With regard to the elements you lay out –
 WRT to the definitions, some could be added, others clarified, some subtracted, and all reorganized with a nod to the interplay
 I don’t agree with your conclusions,
 and I don’t agree with your move to make conclusions from your definitions.

Let me propose an alternate model.

“many people break down hiphop into 'beats and lyrics.' this is careless though, it should be 'beats and rapping'

right now i'm concerned with the SOUND of rapping, as opposed to what the actual message of the words is”

The idea that Hip Hop music is essentially about dope beats and phat rhymes is correct, but you’re correct it is sloppy.

We should just immediately jump from that sloppy definition to a focus on the sound of rapping.

In my view, there are 5 major forces on “the sound of rapping”
- the rapper
- the producer/the beat
- the media outlet/the dj
- the industry
- the audience

We will concern ourselves with the first 2, as the latter 3 can wait for another post for full explanation. (I really think the latter 3 are as important as the first 2, but call me an elitist, time and time again I see folks read stuff that presents a new idea but they just spout off some cliché they heard someone else say. But y’all know my frustration already, so I’ll stop the lamentation.) <- watch your boy use them 10 dollar words.

Let’s first describe what we mean by the sound of rapping.

In the midst of a rap track, the vocal element interacts with the music.

Interaction is the key, because as we will explore below, raps are meant to be set to a drum beat if not fully fleshed out beats. A lot of shining moments in rap history don’t translate well on paper. To quote the great Ike Moses, a lot of hip hop is “how you say it”, not what you say.

That interaction happens on several levels
- the voice as a melodic instrument
- the voice as a percussive instrument
o lyrical content is a constraint on the percussive essence of the rapping

When you hear a great track, it’s often that the beat and the rapping come together in a way that you find pleasurable, but hard to describe.

So that’s the base line.

And to do some more housekeeping, some other premises that guide what I will say next.

The continuum between talking and singing, where as you move from left to right, you’re increasing musicality. © Chuck D’s idea

Talk – giving a speech – orating/preaching - spoken word/slam poetry – rapping – singing – scatting.

How I think most people process hip hop music – this is their hierarchy
1) They listen to the beat first
a. the beat is what hooks them into listening to the rest of the song.
b. I’d say for the bulk of a rapper’s career (in terms of making money and gaining fame), his ability to pick a dope beat - one that the audience will like, is more important than his ability to write a hot 16.
2) the way a rapper swings through the beats
3) the chorus/rap-a-long ability
4) what the rapper is saying in terms of punch lines and repeatables/quotables
5) what the rapper is saying in a literal sense
6) what the rapper is saying in a broader context

I’m not going to argue these premises. They are all reasonable, and in order to understand the rest of my argument, you have to accept them.

Let’s start with the Rapper
- Voice – What does the person’s voice sound like? Nasal like Eminem? Deep like Tone Loc? Young like Chi Ali? High? Lisp?
o Change in voice
 Doing impressions – Big Daddy Kane
 Studio Magic – Nas and Scarlett, Biggie and Short, Del and Unicron
- Volume- whisper to a shout
o Studio magic
- Breath Control
o Punch in’s
o Long flows without a breath being taken - kane
- Speed – how fast are they rapping
o Directly tied to 1) what they are saying content wise, 2) what the beat is like
- Energy, Mood, Tone, Emotion
o Angry – young buck – yelling, voice cracks/distorts,
o Crying – Song Cry
o Smug – Jay Z
o Preaching
o Boasting
- Written interaction
o Rhyme pattern - multis
o Rhyme scheme – abab, aa,bb, aabcc,
o Exactness of the rhyme – A lot of things said on beat, don’t always rhyme.
- Accent
- On beat, between the beat,
- Melody
- Harmony – if with other rappers
- Poetical devices
o Impressions/Impersonations
o References
o Similies, metaphors
o Onomatopoeia
o Multi syllables


Re__mber,
k. orr

you sound like you're trying to write The Handbook on How To Have a Successful Rap Career on Independent or Major Labels and Gain Long Term Recognition. that's a herculean task, probably not even possible (every career is unique), maybe not even worthwhile (what would be the aim/outcome? to scientifically explain why 2Pac or Eminem is the most successful of all time?)

you listed 5 forces
rapper; beat; media outlet; industry; audience
and said they're all just as important to 'the sound of rapping'

but
- one guy beatboxing, one guy rapping, is that not hiphop?
- solo track recorded in home studio - is that not rapping?
- freestylers who don't get to choose their beats - are they not rappers?
- park jams before any media coverage or industry existed - was that not hiphop?

i mean i can see how these outside factors would have to be considered if we were analyzing the careers of say, (hollywood) movie directors. a movie is such a massive project, it requires millions of dollars funding, and numerous other pressures that need to be managed. but the fact is hiphop can be made in a bedroom. the 'context' is not necesarily operative on that grand level. when you read an article on hiphop drum programming techniques you don't expect it to be blown up to macrocosmic proportions, you expect it to focus on a narrow musical jurisdiction; at least part of the rapping is similar to this

talking to rappers would probably be instructive. but
1. not easy to do (i mean, hard to contact)
2. just because someone does something doesn't mean they fully understand it or even realize it. we're all english speakers but how many people really understand the inner workings of the language, or the pronunciations they're using, or the rhythm of their speech (eg. ppl think they leave pauses between words when speaking - they don't). a rapper might say 'patterns? fukchu talking about?' but the fact they're writing in lines means they're already using patterns (assuming they fit one line to one bar)

as for the excell spreadsheet of rappers, it would be ideal, but maybe not feasible
it's like can you grab a book and say 'how well did the author make use of adjectives, one to ten?' you can't give a hard and fast answer, yet you can instantly recognize whenever they use an adjective. or rappers might do one thing very well, but the flaw is their overall repetitiveness, using the same pattern every song (Cube). still, above we were talking about Eminem's The Way I Am for instance.

now, before going on, these two things:
this bit
"Second, and more importantly, you’re either not thinking hard about it, or you trying to push your “lazy rhyming” agenda with in post that should be neutral. (dictionaries try to be neutral) "
i think you're overreacting.
'seeming lazy' is NEVER good, by definition
this 'lazy rhyming' thing wasn't my agenda about MCs who use tired rhymes
it's about the accuracy of the rhyme. the concept gives a lot of scope for being lazy, like if it gets to the stage where you're ending lines with 'seen/lane/dating' and acting like it rhymes, and the listener notices. course they might not notice, you might have such a dope line they're distracted. that's why i wrote SEEMS.

and this:
"It goes without saying that I disagree with your conclusion that changes in ‘pacing’ create a feeling of aloofness."
ok i didn't mean aloof in an emotive way, i was just using an elaborate word to describe something technical. like saying 'Schumacher seems aloof from the standard breaking points as he speeds round the race circuit.' the listener SENSES an detachment in the rapper's rhythm; like how they SENSE speed if the rapper switches to doubletime, or if they use accelerando. that much is hard to argue with. i then went on to say how this COULD be used in an emotive way, which is just my judgement -- although there is frequently general consensus about this sort of thing, i was reading a jazz forum and they ALL seemed to say playing behind the beat creates a 'laid-back' groove, which is emotive.

sidenote:
"That idea, “if I the rapper do X, the listener will feel Y” is beyond problematic. That may be a common sort of analysis in poetry, but it has no place in rap music. Honestly I’m not sure how English/Literature/Poetry people can discuss anything substantively when they go back and forth with that kind squishy reasoning, but as a matter of policy, we shouldn’t be importing bankrupt concepts like that into rap analysis. "

(well i think it's because they've reached a nexus of understanding, with their peers, that allows them to grapple with concepts at the edge of mutability. i mean these people are incredibly well read, most folk don't even touch poetry or even literature. also, in music you have things like a change to a minor key creates a sad feeling - universally recognised, within western culture at least. what's to say poetry can't have the same sort of mechanisms)

moving on

rapper interacts with the beat
yes
i didn't mention the beat much
BUT, you could basically tack 'in relation to the beat' onto everything i listed
like patterns, you might want to leave a gap at the end of your line to make way for some sound element in the track (like the 'ONE' in that supreme clientele song at the end of every loop)
or pause so that each line starts at the same time as some riff in the beat, like the emphatic bass in Gangstarr's 'Take It Personal'.
or make your pattern the same as the drum pattern
and all the different cadences you could do to match something in the beat, or the energy to suit the music (like Nas's low key delivery) on Still Dreaming). etc etc. i'm wary of talking about 'the beat' like hiphoppers do so often cause it's still a musical entity, or rather a collection of musical entities which the rapping must coexist with.

('course a capella is still rapping, also didn't 2Pac start to just rap over drum machines or metronomes and leave it for his producers to fit a beat onto)

the things you listed
- change in voice, impressions, impersonations
* those are fine but i think they're more specialized things, they're advanced, rare. i was going for the basics.

- voice: deep, nasally etc
*post 28, agreed this should have been on the list

- punch ins, studio magic
*relevant to rappers when recording, but relevant to the audience when they hear the final product?

- breath control, long flows without pausing
* the former i feel is outside the final product, it's like talking about how able a screen actor is to complete a scene in one take. long flows i'd put under patterns. of course in a LIVE setting, it all merges (as it would for stage actors)

- mood, tone, emotion, energy, smug, preaching, boasting, crying, angry (why stop there though? could go on, 'loving, comedic, calculating...')
* i think there's distinct things going on here. 1. lyrical ability to construct a mood or tone or emotion (even energy arguably... rhyming about propane or something). 2. ability to express this in your voice. some rappers write emotive stories then deliver them like any other rap, some try to make their voice itself sound pained or whatever and just end up sounding whiny. --- but also, a little emotional colouring could be required just for a few words in an otherwise straight forward rap. that's why i put this under 'intonation' or something. Monch's Trilogy track i think is a supreme example of applying these little touches)

- speed
* again under patterns IMO. cause they are bound to stick to the tempo of the track, so then the 'speed' is a matter of how many words per bar/line they use, which is a matter of patterns. ABILITY to fit loads of words in i think was covered under 'enunciation'

- rhyme scheme, rhyme pattern
* i suppose you could have them separate

- harmony
* in what sense? literally when they sing a chorus together?

- references, poetical devices, mimesis
* see i think these things are separate from the sound. they can all occur on paper. they would add nothing to the listening of someone who doesn't know the language or can't make out the words (in a club with a bad system for instance). in what way do they interact with the sound, even, except that they are said?

i tried to list the the 'prime numbers' the things that couldn't be broken down much more without getting extra complicated, so perhaps that;'s why you don't think they interact. also i agree it's best to stay neutral... but this is okp, you've got to give something to bite. also, in the words of Casual, this is just SOME of the stuff you need if you want to be raw. the reason i opened with the 'beats and rhymes' statement was to point out how the sound aspect of rapping is overlooked. rapping - lyrics = sound

p.s. i think a useful question to ask is, if you took a classic rap, got the instrumental and gave the lyrics to someone who had never encountered it before, told them to record it, why is their version not going to be very good?

>you sound like you're trying to write The Handbook on How To
>Have a Successful Rap Career on Independent or Major Labels
>and Gain Long Term Recognition. that's a herculean task,
>probably not even possible (every career is unique), maybe not
>even worthwhile (what would be the aim/outcome? to
>scientifically explain why 2Pac or Eminem is the most
>successful of all time?)

this is great reading.

correct me if i'm wrong, but it seems that your aim is to provide a methodology to both describe the 'feeling' or interaction that a listener has with a hip-hop song based commonly accepted understanding of what a satisfactory hip-hop listening experience is and the relationship or approach and tools a rapper uses to communicate using the medium of 'rapping.', no?

anyway, it's REALLY good stuff.

i hope you get back to it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hagakure

i learned quite a bit about rapping there, i appriciate this

so i found out about how in poetry they denote the rhythm, or the 'scansion,' using the concept of 'feet'

feet are like 'beats' in that you have a certain number per line. each one is a group of syllables, predominantly the same type of group for the whole poem/verse. so like 'iambic pentameter' means 5 feet per line, and each one is 'iambic', which is the term for two syllables grouped with the second one stressed. like
x=unstressed, / = stressed

to BE or NOT to BE that IS the QUEST(ion)
x.../...x.../.....x.../...x...../....x..../

(little extra syllable at the end... it doesn't have to be really strict, you can slur syllables together or have trailing ones at line beginnings or endings. that's why they say 'feet' instead of just counting syllables. counting syllables would be too strict, plus it doesn't indicate the stress)

as well as iambic there's other feet, like 'trochaic' which would be /x, and other combos like x/x, /xx, /x/, etc. single words on their own can be one of these by default, like the word KILLer is trochaic, you can't pronounce it any other way

so anyway i tried applying this to rap lyrics...
it doesn't work
why?

this might be stating the obvious, but

poetry has to carry the pulse of its own rhythm as it goes
in rap, the pulse is supplied by the music

ya dig?

basically in rap you can use SPACE, you can pause while the music continues then rejoin at a later beat, in poetry you cannot, each word follows directly after the last. in rap you can spread the words out like 'your niiiiine spray..... my miiiiiind spray...'

rap is like water waves, they flow through a medium
poetry is like light waves, they carry their own medium with them (light can go anywhere)

another reason why rap lyrics don't look so good on paper compared to poetry, perhaps?

still trying to get hold of this Tone Deff LP to see his notation system. i'm interested to see what it will be like. i'm thinking some sort of grid to write the words in, the grid boxes representing the timing

there's also the realm of 'free verse' which doesn't use this 'iambic pentameter' spiel. investigating that might yield something interesting

but what i'm finding is with rapping, there's just TOO MUCH INFORMATION to assess to be able to say something decisive like 'he's rapping in trochaic quatrameter' or whatever. sometimes the best you can do is pick out a particular characteristic that's unique to one rapper's style, like Method Man's distinctive 'pause flow' could probably be explained in musical terms satisfactorily. it's like if there's a character in a film who speaks a certain way, most people recognize something specific that defines their style, but to actually notate/explain EVERYTHING about conversational speech is a humongous task

and thus breaking down what the MC is doing musically could be more effective.

take a verse. all of the rhyme schemes are scales. different words in each scheme correspond to the notes of that scale. each octave can be broken up into different groupings of words. So that a lyrical arpeggio is when an MC runs a rhyme scheme syllable for syllable.

i was thinking how rhyming is so integral to rap music, whereas poetry can happily live without it. the rhyming carries some essential function but i'm not sure exactly what it is

however i have been toying with the idea of rhymes as the verbal equivalent of harmony, so essentially they work on a musical level. guys/prize/lies would be three 'notes' of the same rhyme-chord, which could itself be described neutrally using the phonetic alphabet. of course, in some way 'scales' or 'modes' make more sense than saying 'chords,' since there are numerous different rhymes that could fit in, though chords make more sense in terms of structure. maybe we should use a different word altogether

i'll need to sleep on it though. on one hand i sense the rhymes are REALLY important, though not fully understood, but on the other hand i don't want to use some quick&easy equivalence argument that smacks of the desperation to intellectualize rap

i'll come back later since i ain't got the time now to read and think through all of this thoroughly.