I first heard that term out of the mouth of legendary boxing trainer/commentator Teddy Atlas while discussing the 8th-round TKO beating that Mike Tyson took at the hands of Lennox Lewis.

That shit hurt my heart when he said it & my first instinct was to cuss at my TV screen like Teddy's hating ass could actually hear me.

I grew up on Tyson knocking motherfuckas out.

My coolest unc even took me to see Iron Mike live in his heyday down at Trump Plaza in Atlantic City a couple times (vs Tyrell Biggs first then later Michael Spinks).

As I grew into adolescence, I realized it'd never be quite the same post-prison but there was enough evidence to allow my love as a fan to outweigh logic.

Atlas claimed that Tyson didn't really have the belief in himself at that stage.

Never really convinced himself before or during the battle that he could defeat a bigger, younger and by then more skilled/better-conditioned foe in Lennox.

The frenetic head movement, ferocity & unpredictability had all but evaporated.

Instead you had a more ordinary & always-undersized Tyson who now allowed himself to eat stiff jabs and absorb punishment for enough rounds to make it a 'respectable' defeat.

It was so blatant that The Baddest Man On The Planet wouldn't even take the risk of trying to catch the notoriously suspect-chinned adonis with a hook or upper cut that might get him out of there quick like far lesser heavyweights such as Hasim Rachman or Oliver McCall had.

Eventually after the initial sting wore off, Teddy's words were fairly undeniable.

Hip-hop is a gladiator sport, like boxing or stand-up comedy.

You need to be fully committed to it, retain rhythm/reflexes thru repetition, stay in fighting shape even during the lapses between training, maintain the edge that got you this far despite the fact that you're now enjoying the spoils of success and the physical toll mounts.

And even if you do somehow persevere past those obstacles, it's still a profession so unforgiving that each next visit to the ring, the stage, the studio could be the end of your career.

Tyson didn't go in there that night back in '02 planning or truly believing he could beat Lennox, he was there for the big check to pay debts and as an ex-con with an 8th grade education he didn't yet know what else he could do to get it.

So Kid Dynamite became just another game loser trying to hang in the fight.

As The Roots have amazingly become the world's greatest house band sharing stages with the president & Paul McCartney on national TV, it's pretty clear they're not even really trying that hard anymore on these LPs.

What's left of the band that was grinding thru the 90's/early 00's doing 250 dates a year knows that they're not gonna eat off records or tour money.

They've grown up & gotten a steady well-paying gig with benes and endless networking opportunities.

Good. They've more than earned it and I'm proud of how far the boys have come since the Middle East club days.

Yet Questo, the hardest-working-man-in-show-business, is a student of the game and knows what affectations/associations will serve to maintain his Metacritic score each time out.

But like an old friend who has to keep it true, it's time to admit that we've now been hearing some variation of this same blueprint for ten years.

And I won't even get into the records growing increasingly darker in content & aggressively more 'difficult' as some sort of subconscious antithesis to the crowd-pleasing band you see on TV.

What you end up with is skillfully played but somewhat ponderous music cloaked in all the accoutrements and murky meaningfulness that the critics/certain fans will proudly proclaim they like but long-term very few truly love.

A month or two after this album when they do a show in New York/Philly/LA, the band will be back to playing Next Movement, Proceed, backing other artists and closing with You Got Me/Seed 2.0.

Short story now 'get a damn blog, Bomb!' long......none of this new shit sticks to the ribs.

We're in that 2000s Sonic Youth, post-70's Lou Reed, last 20 years or so Woody Allen, Neither Fish Nor Flesh TTD, post-WB Prince, Jack White after Elephant, George Carlin's caustic/barely-comedic last HBO special after 9/11, Red Hook Brooklyn Spike, Public Enemy with a 10-piece-band to play their R&RHOF Induction......you get the idea.

And oddly enough the group once considered 'conscious' by proxy in the late 90's now lyrically seems to try to make big sweeping societal statements but neglect to do the individual soul-bearing work required.

This new album is hopefully the nadir of albums made in this style, the sonic/thematic mood is like some sort of dystopian Gorillaz record where the rap verses are ancillary, minor keys are unrelenting, a few string breaks are interjected, the tempos rarely change and the hooks feel like elongated funeral dirges that you instantly forget when they mercifully end.

After their umpteenth 'challenging' indie-rock/art-hop album in a row, the challenge The Legendary seem least up for taking on is attempting to make entertaining music with any degree of rap energy or rock danger.

Hate to be the 'you grandiose motherfuckas don't play the shit that they like' type but fuck it, after 20 years of countless shows, embarrassing numbers of posts & double-digit automatic album purchases I guess I feel like I've earned the right to gripe.

Love, Peace & Gourmet Food-Truck Chicken Grease,

Bomb

>
>After their umpteenth 'challenging' indie-rock/art-hop album
>in a row, the challenge The Legendary seem least up for taking
>on is attempting to make entertaining music with any degree of
>rap energy or rock danger.
>

----------------------------



O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

i think this question is relevant,
because at this point, the band does not have to release albums.
they have the tonight show gig.
quest is a tastemaker.
he can DJ. he'll always be able to do guest speeches. seminars.
produce for other artists.

hell, if times got really rough, he could sell his vinyl (although i am sure
it would never come to that).


so before we can answe the question of whether the roots
are "losing," we have to at least come up with an educated guess of what they are trying to accomplish by continuing to release material.

you mentioned Tyson and going in for another payday.
i don't think quest would release albums at this point
if it was only about money.

i can see him DJ'ing just for money, but not releasing albums.


so maybe it's about continuing to release critically acclaimed albums that
go gold. maybe that's his goal. i could see that, but i don't think that means
he's down for the count.

look at the artists you mentioned...
dylan/ prince/ etc. when they were past their prime.

it gets to a point when a major artist (or maybe any self actualized person)
has nothing left to prove.
they have many things they can do, but nothing left to prove.

will dylan/ prince/ etc... ever reach the peaks of their commercial heyday again?
of course not. but for diehard fans of these artists,
those post-prime albums hold a special place in our hearts.
not just because we are stans (although that's a part of it)
but because there is something profound about an artist
that has accomplished damn near everything still find ways to
experiment within their own sound.

in a way, i can get lost inside of Stevie's "conversation peace"
just as much as i can get lost in "innervisions," because as a fan,
it's a trip to hear stevie experiment within his own limitations.
he subtly shows off the type of harmonic and rhythmic depth that
a new kid on the block couldn't pull off no matter how brilliant they are.

will the kids care about a new stevie album?
no.
could i recommend "conversation peace" to somebody just getting up on stevie?
of course not.


but i am love that stevie is in the place where he can drop an album
if wants to, when he wants to, and it sounds exactly the way he wants it to.
are stevie's releases since "hotter than july" a failure
just because he's no longer a former kid artist with a chip on his shoulder
and something to prove?

not hardly.



which brings us back to the roots.
although i am not a roots stan, i respect them a great deal.
but more than all of that, i am a huge fan of what the represent.
they are one of the few hip hop artist i can think of
that has the artistic freedom that was granted to dylan/ prince/ stones etc while
past their prime.


i guess jay COULD do that,
but he'll never open up and do a album that isn't concerned
about having at least one song in the top 10.

they have the luxury to do the albums they want while past their prime,
and NOT be disrespected for not having a top 10 single.


most artists never get to that point.
most of the artists that DO get to that point are not black.
now ask yourself how many of the black artists that got to that point are hip hop.

what the roots are doing right now with their albums
isn't a loss. it's a miracle.

so i don't think of them as losing the fight by releasing albums.
as long as they want to do it and fans want to hear it,
they should keep doing it.

and maybe i feel they almost have an obligation to do it,
if for no other reason that to show that a black hip hop group
can occupy the "past your commercial prime, but still artistically relevant"
sweet spot that is usually reserved for white legacy acts.

hell, even michael jackson wasn't able to get to that point.
maybe that's what killed him.
maybe that's what kills a lot of our legends, when you think about it.

in other words,
i say the roots won.

>i think this question is relevant,
>because at this point, the band does not have to release
>albums.
>they have the tonight show gig.
>quest is a tastemaker.
>he can DJ. he'll always be able to do guest speeches.
>seminars.
>produce for other artists.
>
>hell, if times got really rough, he could sell his vinyl
>(although i am sure
>it would never come to that).
>
>
>so before we can answe the question of whether the roots
>are "losing," we have to at least come up with an educated
>guess of what they are trying to accomplish by continuing to
>release material.
>
>you mentioned Tyson and going in for another payday.
>i don't think quest would release albums at this point
>if it was only about money.
>
oh it's not for the money, as I mentioned they're not making money off these albums.

It's more a critical legacy type of thing.


>i can see him DJ'ing just for money, but not releasing albums.
>
>
>
>so maybe it's about continuing to release critically acclaimed
>albums that
>go gold. maybe that's his goal. i could see that, but i don't
>think that means
>he's down for the count.
>
>look at the artists you mentioned...
>dylan/ prince/ etc. when they were past their prime.
>
stands to reason as a studio act The Roots are past that point too, which isn't unusual, how many bands even make 20 years?

>it gets to a point when a major artist (or maybe any self
>actualized person)
>has nothing left to prove.
>they have many things they can do, but nothing left to prove.
>
>
>will dylan/ prince/ etc... ever reach the peaks of their
>commercial heyday again?
>of course not. but for diehard fans of these artists,
>those post-prime albums hold a special place in our hearts.

Dylan was in a bad way for a good chunk of the 80's & first half of the 90's, those later albums from Time Out of Mind on are prolly his best run since Street Legal tho.

I'd love to hear a good new Prince album but I've somewhat given up on that.

>not just because we are stans (although that's a part of it)
>but because there is something profound about an artist
>that has accomplished damn near everything still find ways to
>
>experiment within their own sound.
>
these albums tonally & thematically aren't really 'experiments' any more, it's pseudo-experimental but they've sorta been using this road map since Game Theory with this one & How I Get Over being the least enjoyable.

Rising Down started ferociously but sorta falls back into this Dice-hook mid-tempo malaise after 75 Bars.

>in a way, i can get lost inside of Stevie's "conversation
>peace"
>just as much as i can get lost in "innervisions," because as a
>fan,
>it's a trip to hear stevie experiment within his own
>limitations.
>he subtly shows off the type of harmonic and rhythmic depth
>that
>a new kid on the block couldn't pull off no matter how
>brilliant they are.
>
>will the kids care about a new stevie album?
>no.
>could i recommend "conversation peace" to somebody just
>getting up on stevie?
>of course not.
>
>
>but i am love that stevie is in the place where he can drop an
>album
>if wants to, when he wants to, and it sounds exactly the way
>he wants it to.
>are stevie's releases since "hotter than july" a failure
>just because he's no longer a former kid artist with a chip on
>his shoulder
>and something to prove?
>
>not hardly.
>
we're talking Stevie Wonder, dawg, the level of songwriting is a different tier.
>
>
>which brings us back to the roots.
>although i am not a roots stan, i respect them a great deal.
>but more than all of that, i am a huge fan of what the
>represent.
>they are one of the few hip hop artist i can think of
>that has the artistic freedom that was granted to dylan/
>prince/ stones etc while
>past their prime.
>
>
>i guess jay COULD do that,
>but he'll never open up and do a album that isn't concerned
>about having at least one song in the top 10.
>
>they have the luxury to do the albums they want while past
>their prime,
>and NOT be disrespected for not having a top 10 single.
>
they never had a Top 10 single, my point is they're spinning their wheels in this same mold & haven't even added a song to their own canon in a fan favorite sense.
>
>most artists never get to that point.
>most of the artists that DO get to that point are not black.
>now ask yourself how many of the black artists that got to
>that point are hip hop.
>
>what the roots are doing right now with their albums
>isn't a loss. it's a miracle.
>
I disagree, they're capable of better work but they're churning out half-baked concept records for critical applause but little else in the long run.

>so i don't think of them as losing the fight by releasing
>albums.
>as long as they want to do it and fans want to hear it,
>they should keep doing it.
>
>and maybe i feel they almost have an obligation to do it,
>if for no other reason that to show that a black hip hop group
>
making a good hip-hop record would be a nice statement there, this indie-rock arty mishmash is yielding diminishing returns.

>can occupy the "past your commercial prime, but still
>artistically relevant"
>sweet spot that is usually reserved for white legacy acts.
>
>hell, even michael jackson wasn't able to get to that point.
>maybe that's what killed him.
>maybe that's what kills a lot of our legends, when you think
>about it.
>
>in other words,
>i say the roots won.
>
obviously they 'won', the concept of 'game loser' is that now it's just a case of showing up for appearances sake but not really digging in.

There's obviously a myriad of reasons for that, not the least of which is they used to live off working their early records for 2/3 years straight.

The stakes were higher, now the records are a side hustle.

In the lesson, ever. I havent heard the album yet.

Last roots albums i bought (phrenology, tipping point, game theory).... Heard undun about 8 times and there are some great traxx on there... But this review has me skeptical.


Extremely well written piece tho

for the record I liked undun to a degree, much more than HIGO & this record, however now that I think about it I haven't played it in awhile.

you want old shit, buy the old albums.

if you don't like it, to each is own, but why do they have to held to any sort of standard? why can't it be experimental & different, if nothing else? isn't labeling them as being in some sort of a "stage" putting them into a box?

them niggas is gettin old yo. if you been a diehard for a while, you old too.

aren't you supposed to grow w/ age?

if you don't like anymore, perhaps you've grown apart?

i just don't get why mofos keep waiting a certain sound, when the roots do nothing but push envelopes & do new shit.

(no snark-i think your comparison is introspective as fck. i simply beg to differ w/ the expectations (maybe the wrong word, but bleh))

>you want old shit, buy the old albums.
>
own them all.

>if you don't like it, to each is own, but why do they have to
>held to any sort of standard?
uh.......artists are often held to the standards their art created.

why can't it be experimental &
>different, if nothing else?
it is neither experimental, nor different, this is a worse version of the record they've now been making for 8-10 years.

>isn't labeling them as being in
>some sort of a "stage" putting them into a box?
>
it's an analogy

>them niggas is gettin old yo. if you been a diehard for a
>while, you old too.
>
>aren't you supposed to grow w/ age?
>
I'm 37, my tastes transform over time but I didn't become a soccer mom, I'm still an active participant in this music shit.

Might be part of the reason I still have all my hair and in its original color.

>if you don't like anymore, perhaps you've grown apart?
>
>i just don't get why mofos keep waiting a certain sound, when
>the roots do nothing but push envelopes & do new shit.
>
they really don't tho, that's my main issue, it's mostly aural window dressing.

>(no snark-i think your comparison is introspective as fck. i
>simply beg to differ w/ the expectations (maybe the wrong
>word, but bleh))

>>you want old shit, buy the old albums.

>own them all.

-rock them shits, reminisce & be fulfilled!

>>if you don't like it, to each is own, but why do they have
>to
>>held to any sort of standard?

>uh.......artists are often held to the standards their art
>created.

-never to be allowed to expand? ppbbtt. you know that's silly.

>why can't it be experimental &
>>different, if nothing else?
>it is neither experimental, nor different, this is a worse
>version of the record they've now been making for 8-10 years.

-says you. where's your lead single homie? i'll cop if it's dope! no d/l!

>>isn't labeling them as being in
>>some sort of a "stage" putting them into a box?

>it's an analogy

-indeed. an anology that lends labels most artists don't care for.

>>them niggas is gettin old yo. if you been a diehard for a
>>while, you old too.

>>aren't you supposed to grow w/ age?

>I'm 37, my tastes transform over time but I didn't become a
>soccer mom, I'm still an active participant in this music
>shit.

>Might be part of the reason I still have all my hair and in
>its original color.

>>if you don't like anymore, perhaps you've grown apart?

>>i just don't get why mofos keep waiting a certain sound,
>when
>>the roots do nothing but push envelopes & do new shit.

>they really don't tho, that's my main issue, it's mostly aural
>window dressing.

-that sir, is your opinion. & you don't have the answers!

if they remade illadeph over & over, niggas would have some shade to throw abt that too.

so, those of us who think the recent albums are dope are.....

because.....

Did you actually read the post?

They aren't expanding. They arent doing anything different. They sound uninspired. Etc etc.

That's the point.

Adding strings doesn't make an album different.

And the "where's your single/album" response comes acress as mad-defensive and right out of the stan playbook.

dumb fuck


>They aren't expanding. They arent doing anything different.
>They sound uninspired. Etc etc.

quest and the rest would obviously disagree with this
as was said..to each their own. you either didn't evolve with the band
or more likely....this is a classic case of ppl hating when their favorite artist gets bigger than life
move the fuck on loser

what Herman Cain is up to or what's the latest on the Lebron app.

Of course Quest would disgree with me saying they aren't expanding. When that thought entered your head, how excited did you get to type it??


I'm not saying they are actively trying to make bad music.


But to me (and obviously others), they sound uninspired and stuck in a rut. At the very least, sonically in a rut.

In my (and others) opinion. Which, you know, is the driving force of this forum. Discussing opinions on music.

"Questo would disagree"hahahahahahah

At least your streat of being literally the dumbest poster in all of Okayplayer is in tact. And I'm the loser.

Honestly, Bomb said it much better than I have and hats off to him.

But anyone coming through saying "where's your album" really needs to check their stannery.

But at the very least at least that is a better rebute than "Questo wouldn't think so" hahahahaha

And people need to back off the "you didn't evolve with the band" excuse because its painfully played out.

That's the problem. The Roots have released the same album 5 times in a row with minor changes (usually for the worse).

And its not like them. At least it didn't used to be. How different was TFA from Illadelph and Phren from TFA and Game Theory from anything prior?

Hahaha so in this thread we have people freaking out saying-

"where's your album/single?"

"If you want their old stuff spin their old sh!t" <<which completely misses the point

"you didn't evolve with the band"

"Questo wouldn't think so"

"loser"

"bullsh!t"


hahahaha. Nice level of discourse.

i replied w/ quote.

>They aren't expanding. They arent doing anything different. They sound uninspired. Etc etc.

>That's the point.

-that's not a point, that's your fucking opinion.

(art and opinions are made to clash, btw)

>Adding strings doesn't make an album different.

-if that's your take, you're remedial.

>And the "where's your single/album" response comes acress as
mad-defensive and right out of the stan playbook.

-yet, you have still failed to produce a better sounding product. so why do you matter if all you got is shade?

you don't like it, it's not for you. go cop other shit. why does it have to be someone's failure because whoever ain't feeling it?

no one is defending anything.

niggas just discussing, yo-

try to remark w/o being snide.

They can be as dark and experimental as they'd like, but I'd really like a Roots album to have more than five or six Black Thought verses total.

That said, I do like this album, though not nearly as much as their previous efforts. I'm not at all in the camp of "The Roots have been getting worse for years." I thought "HIGO" was one of the best hip-hop of 2010. I think "Undun" was one of the top 10 hip-hop albums of 2011. And this album definitely works on a good number of spots. Whenever he does rap, Thought rips it, and even through the much bally-hooed "dark" atmosphere, there's a lot of humor in the verses that hasn't been in many of their recent albums. But I'm definitely don't feel the compulsion to listen to this album obsessively like I have the ones that came before it.


>As The Roots have amazingly become the world's greatest house band
>sharing stages with the president & Paul McCartney on national TV,
>it's pretty clear they're not even really trying that hard anymore on
>these LPs.

This part I disagree with. I think they're definitely trying hard. This album may not always work for me, but it's not boring. At all. And a boring Roots album would be a bigger sin.


>After their umpteenth 'challenging' indie-rock/art-hop album in a
>row, the challenge The Legendary seem least up for taking on is
>attempting to make entertaining music with any degree of rap energy
>or rock danger.

Eh, I'm not so sure I feel you here either. It's treading to close to the "Making 'challenging' music is easy, but making music that has pop value is what's really difficult" argument that I really, really, REALLY hate. And really, they already sorta went down that road with "The Tipping Point," which many hated because they thought it was too accessable and straight ahead and only really featured Black Thought (side note: I loved that album too).

I don't think the situation is quite as bleak as you're painting it here. This isn't mid-'00s KRS, churning out album with weaks ('cause they're the only ones he has a budget for) and so far up his own asshole that it's difficult for him to breathe. This isn't 2009 Rakim, again saddled with poor beats and a complete lack of interest in rhyming. There's a lot of the Roots that I grew up loving on this album. I just think they need to refocus they're musical energy, for lack of a better term.

on these past three records and then of course in terms of the show.

He seems happy tho.

>They can be as dark and experimental as they'd like, but I'd
>really like a Roots album to have more than five or six Black
>Thought verses total.
>
He killed 'The Dark (Trinity)', as did Quest on drums, that's prolly my only true standout cut.

>That said, I do like this album, though not nearly as much as
>their previous efforts. I'm not at all in the camp of "The
>Roots have been getting worse for years." I thought "HIGO" was
>one of the best hip-hop of 2010.
don't remember what else was out that year but to me that was their weakest record until this one.

I think "Undun" was one of
>the top 10 hip-hop albums of 2011.

perhaps.

the story/concept/narrative was underwhelming tho, particularly after the Kendrick album that came out afterwards.

'Kool On' was dope, 'Other Side' goes live.

And this album definitely
>works on a good number of spots. Whenever he does rap, Thought
>rips it, and even through the much bally-hooed "dark"
>atmosphere, there's a lot of humor in the verses that hasn't
>been in many of their recent albums. But I'm definitely don't
>feel the compulsion to listen to this album obsessively like I
>have the ones that came before it.
>
I listened to this thing about five or six times in a row and couldn't tell you much about it.

>
>>As The Roots have amazingly become the world's greatest house
>band
>>sharing stages with the president & Paul McCartney on
>national TV,
>>it's pretty clear they're not even really trying that hard
>anymore on
>>these LPs.
>
>This part I disagree with. I think they're definitely trying
>hard. This album may not always work for me, but it's not
>boring. At all. And a boring Roots album would be a bigger
>sin.
>
We'll agree to disagree, this is an incredibly well-crafted but irredeemably boring album.

>
>>After their umpteenth 'challenging' indie-rock/art-hop album
>in a
>>row, the challenge The Legendary seem least up for taking on
>is
>>attempting to make entertaining music with any degree of rap
>energy
>>or rock danger.
>
>Eh, I'm not so sure I feel you here either. It's treading to
>close to the "Making 'challenging' music is easy, but making
>music that has pop value is what's really difficult" argument
>that I really, really, REALLY hate.
I skipped listing 'pop' because that's exactly what I'm *not* saying.

But this is like some new MOR/indie-rock/arty middleground record that obviously barely resembles a rap record but they're not 'rocking' either, Kirk's a great guitarist but on record they've never really found a way to let him loose.

They've got a horn section now too but you couldn't really tell.

They're a shit-hot big-ass multifaceted band that on recent records sounds like Quest & Poyser doing these Beatles/Radiohead-style pastiches.


And really, they already
>sorta went down that road with "The Tipping Point," which many
>hated because they thought it was too accessable and straight
>ahead and only really featured Black Thought (side note: I
>loved that album too).
>
I went to the Tipping Point release party when I still lived in Philly, that's been ten years now.

I'm just looking for something with a different mood, I don't need them going to call DJ Mustard.

Just perhaps a strong rap record or if you're gonna 'rock' actually do so.

Make a Meters album with Steve Albini producing.

I don't really care, I'm just saying we've seen this movie before a few times now.

>I don't think the situation is quite as bleak as you're
>painting it here. This isn't mid-'00s KRS, churning out album
>with weaks ('cause they're the only ones he has a budget for)
>and so far up his own asshole that it's difficult for him to
>breathe. This isn't 2009 Rakim, again saddled with poor beats
>and a complete lack of interest in rhyming. There's a lot of
>the Roots that I grew up loving on this album. I just think
>they need to refocus they're musical energy, for lack of a
>better term.

I'm not saying they're done, I wouldn't have bothered typing all that if I believed they were.

I'm just admitting I've reached The Tipping Point for these moody, metacritic-chasing, droning hook 'think piece' records.

It's become a default approach with diminishing rewards.

>Kirk's a great guitarist but on
>record they've never really found a way to let him loose.
>
>They've got a horn section now too but you couldn't really
>tell.

and probably why 'Phrenology' remains my favorite Roots record... the band sounds like a fucking BAND on it. It goes in every direction, and imho successfully.

Haven't listened to the new one, or most of the past several, but then again I HAVE become a soccer mom, so I have an excuse...

that was Ben Kenny era on guitar tho & he was a converted bassist playing guitar so it was more chord-crunch driven.

Sometimes the technical limitations can be a blessing rather than burden.

The best Roots arrangement of 'Concerto Of The Desperado' was the version they played in the late 90's before they even had a guitarist in the group at all.

They'd take Kamal out from behind his keyboard (with him being the only touring key player) and hand him a guitar for just that song.

He would play a line of two or maybe three notes in a loop repeatedly for the whole joint while holding the guitar out front with a big grin on his face like the Long Island bro down the hall from my Northeastern U dorm room when he borrowed his roommates guitar & learned how to play the opening lick from Candlebox's 'Far Behind'.

Song kinda bubbled quietly until Quest's drums cracked in & then Thought was off with the verse, tagging the Stetsasonic 'It Ain't Nothin Like Hip-Hop Music' mantra on the end of the hook.

Then the Stetsasonic 'It ain't nothin like hip-hop music' call-and-response-with-the-crowd tag at the end of each hook.

Plus that was during that (for lack of a better term) 'garage' semi-revival of the early 2000s so the template was different.

Now half of this Pitchfork stuff classified as rock doesn't actually 'rock' in any sense of the word but we've discussed that many times here before.

Phrenology was actually a jarring leap & one they felt they needed with the fender-rhodes/neo-soul sound that Things Fall Apart helped create fading & some of its biggest artists going MIA.

But yeah, I love that album, with those first four MCA/Geffen albums they're all great for completely different reasons which is a rare feat.

each album has songs that I could put on a Roots compilation but the albums as a whole don't last with me as long as they once did. I think I might've listened to The Tipping Point more than the last three or four albums. I know I've heard Phrenology and Game Theory a lot at this point.

Of course, this new album has to settle in with me a little bit more before. And as many people have already said, it could use more Black Thought.

Ultimately, I think what a lot of fans are looking for is an entire Roots album that carries that raw live energy they bring on stage over to songs that stay with you. I hate to use the term but it seems like what a lot of fans really want is for The Roots to be more poppy. Instead of albums that seemed to be more or less made for the critics, I want something that I know can only be made by The Roots: an album filled with awesome, raw, energetic rapping and live instrumentation.

That's what drew me to them originally. I'm 29. In middle school I always messed with The Roots simply because Black Thought rapped for what seemed like an eternity at a time and the band played the shit outta those instruments. It wasn't just some half-baked playing and rapping: it was full-on musicianship.

The Roots might actually be guilty of overthinking these albums at this point.
---------------------------------------


---------------------------------------

>each album has songs that I could put on a Roots compilation
>but the albums as a whole don't last with me as long as they
>once did. I think I might've listened to The Tipping Point
>more than the last three or four albums. I know I've heard
>Phrenology and Game Theory a lot at this point.
>
>Of course, this new album has to settle in with me a little
>bit more before. And as many people have already said, it
>could use more Black Thought.
>
>Ultimately, I think what a lot of fans are looking for is an
>entire Roots album that carries that raw live energy they
>bring on stage over to songs that stay with you. I hate to
>use the term but it seems like what a lot of fans really want
>is for The Roots to be more poppy. Instead of albums that
>seemed to be more or less made for the critics, I want
>something that I know can only be made by The Roots: an album
>filled with awesome, raw, energetic rapping and live
>instrumentation.
>
>That's what drew me to them originally. I'm 29. In middle
>school I always messed with The Roots simply because Black
>Thought rapped for what seemed like an eternity at a time and
>the band played the shit outta those instruments. It wasn't
>just some half-baked playing and rapping: it was full-on
>musicianship.
>
>The Roots might actually be guilty of overthinking these
>albums at this point.
>---------------------------------------
>
>
>---------------------------------------

was wack

and not for substance abuse, or whatever the fok

I could hear him sayin'

Redford? FOH, OCK, Ima SPIT!

HAHA.

I had Game Theory on the other day

dreams of M16s with loaded magazines...yeah, I need that.

I agree, I think they are over thinking these albums

like these reality contest shows like top chef or ink master

when they are up for critique

and the judges are like, you overthought this one, less is more.

Things Fall Apart, Illadelph, Do You Want more, Game Theory.

I disagree with a lot of it - will come back to comment later - but really nice, thoughtful read.

-thebigfunk

~ i could still snort you under the table ~

>I disagree with a lot of it - will come back to comment later
>- but really nice, thoughtful read.
>
>-thebigfunk
>
>~ i could still snort you under the table ~

I just want them to be that neo soul all star group we were promised with the soulquarian hype of 99/00

Them playing neo soul shit vented by a who's who of neo soul singers

That record would be a hit

sparked that subconsciously, peeped that earlier and it reminded me that we used to stretch out & let it fly sometimes just for sport.

Even had a lil flip of that archived Maxwell thread title but between being a decade-plus old reference & not wanting to be extra I kept it.

so it's easier for me to not only give them a pass for this 1 (since I don't like it either) but also to still expect to enjoy future albums


@rob_starrk

They can be as dark as they want just don't make Thought a guest artist on his own album. That's a crime IMO. Game Theory was the last album I loved and they continue to make albums with fewer songs that stick with each release since then.

I actually tried to give Undun a spin yesterday because their defenders had me second guessing myself.

Yeah there's a joint here and there but the album is PAINFULLY boring and I'm not compelled to listen to it.

What does Undun provide that Game Theory didn't provide 4x better?

As you said, they seem to be sticking to the same blueprint for the last 8 or so years and none of it sticks.

This new album has me really sratching my head.


And as you said, I'm all for experimenting and trying different things...but that is the exact opposite of what they've been doing.

They have been making the same album for 5 straight releases now and it gets worse each time.

I'm salty that self-professed Roots fans don't value Black Thought more too truthfully...

i agree with much of what you said, but not all. i definitely think they are still trying. but i have a had enough of these moody, depressing albums. i actually loved undun and listened to the new album a few times, and it just isn't grabbing me. obviously it needs more time to sink in but i feel like i just don't like it that much. i just want to hear some shit that knocks and thought rapping his ass off. artsy is cool but i want to hear something fun or at least something in a different mood from them.

I think the production is on-point. Thematically this is their strongest since Game Theory.

... but specifically for this release (dope written piece by the way fam). Game Theory is one of my fave albums of theirs, RD didn't get near as much burn as GT, but HIGO and Undun had dope spots and enough BT verses to tide me over. This one kind of lacks that although when Thought is on there the verses are NEVER phoned in, but it still leaves me with a hankering for more. I think I will pass on this releases (and I typically get multiples of each release since my kids are Roots fans as well ((edited of course)) ). I hope the next one does have more of Thought on it and hopefully we can get some Sandwiches too!

It's been all downhill after Rising Down for me, I hardly listened to How I got Over or Undun, and I haven't felt excited about listening to this new album yet. I used to run like a little kid to listen to a roots album when one came out but lately it feels like the new albums have been well executed compilation albums more than an actual The Roots record.

I'm not saying the albums are bad because they definitely are not but it's too much of the same by now, progression is cool but I'd like to see more of what used to be a combination of fun and serious.

Some of Organix, Do You Want More, Illadelphand Things mixed with Game Theory and Rising Down. Guess it's easy for me to say as a listener but putting a Roots cd on spin a couple of years ago wasn't dictated by whehter or not I was feeling serious, I could just put an album on blast at any time.

.

glad to see somebody still trying with their posting on this site, even if the roots aint tryin with their albums.

really tho, i think they are trying - trying to tread water and critic-bate with pseudo-deep shit that is as you said PONDEROUS

thats the word that comes to my mind most when listenening to this record, ponderous.

that said, black rock is sonically interesting and kinda madlibish in a way i dig. understand and the dark(trinity) are both kinda cool with the breakbeat aesthetic.. if it was more tracks like that id probably see it differently.

>glad to see somebody still trying with their posting on this
>site, even if the roots aint tryin with their albums.
>
every once in awhile....

>really tho, i think they are trying - trying to tread water
>and critic-bate with pseudo-deep shit that is as you said
>PONDEROUS
>
>thats the word that comes to my mind most when listenening to
>this record, ponderous.
>
yup, in Casey Kasem voice.

>that said, black rock is sonically interesting and kinda
>madlibish in a way i dig. understand and the dark(trinity) are
>both kinda cool with the breakbeat aesthetic.. if it was more
>tracks like that id probably see it differently.

I dig Dark (Trinity) a lot, definitely the standout on the album.

The others I would have to listen again to even recognize which cuts those are.

And that's after listening to that straight thru at least five times since yesterday.

album rap band don't, or didn't in the case of Carlin, bring it like they used to seems rather asinine and trifling. That's a hell of a lot of words to point out the obvious and expected course of a career.

If you used your own free time just to tell me I'm wasting mine, you're harrumphing backwards.

For the record Carlin was still killing into his mid-60's, it was just the last two specials as he approached 70 that really sucked.

Nothing physical tho even if he died shortly thereafter.

This ain't the NBA, this wasn't 'he got old & fell off' like Kevin Garnett in a Nets uniform looking like a staggering preying mantis missing his antenna.

If you're an artist that has your own lane, establshed & never transcended to the kind of megastardom that builds you up for an inevitably big fall, you can certainly still maintain in the arts.

Q-Tip made the best album of '08 two decades after Tribe dropped.

He's just still invested, possibly to an obsessive-compulsive level, in making a great album.

The Roots got bigger fish to fry but the albums still come, almost quicker than they did in the heyday.

Not to mention according to the critical chirping, they're 'bringing it' to stronger reviews than when they actually made strong rap albums.

Might be time to stop picking those joints up on the strength, took me both Volumes of the War & Peace albums to give up on Ice Cube even though instinctually I knew it had ended with 'you mean there snakes out there THIS BIG' in the trailer for "Anaconda".

Iron Mike wasn't old or cumulative punishment, he won the title back out of prison.

But when tested it became clear he'd lost his desire, belief and his skills had atrophied.

Since they aren't making the music that you want them to, their career resembles that of an aging, troubled fighter and a sick and sober Carlin towards the end of his rope. The comparison doesn't seem appropriate, and you seem to be placing a lot of responsibility on the Roots and not looking at other factors at play like your age when they were dropping your favorite records and how your tastes have or haven't changed. I agree about Q-Tip though, that was a great album.

but gonna pass on this one. Listened to the stream a few times and nothing stuck. And like you said, things have been trending to this outcome. I'm all for that growing with the artist shit. I guess The Roots finally outgrew me. This one didn't connect.

i don't agree w/ bomb's sentiment, but the analogy was well enough w/o specific correlation.

still kinda surprised ppl are falling over themselves to congratulate this guy on such a narrow viewed & masturbatory "piece"

Because I'm going to demand you make this exact same post
about Jay-Z now, whose last 3 albums have been orders of
magnitude shittier than the Roots' and you know that

Talk about it breh

----------------------------



O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

listen to enough to recall much about it, BP3 woulda been a solid record if they cut literally every Timbaland record on it.

Mostly though while this post was something I've been avoiding stating here for awhile, Jigga discussion has been done to death.

Enjoyed the live band in the studio feel even if that was prolly partly necessity due to scheduling.

And love Black Thought's work on there.

Like 'Little Ghetto Boy' for instance, that's some of the most personal stuff Thought ever laid to wax.

Just half of the stuff that dude soldiered thru in his formative years many other rappers woulda milked on record for twenty albums.

Thought's always just been about showing & proving rather than showing & telling.

Full disclosure: I'm not really a big Legend fan, wouldn't buy one of his records independently.

I will say he had a lot more grit & soulfulness to his voice seeing them do this record live (obviously with stronger material than 'Save Room') at The Troubadour with The Roots the week this dropped.

That impressed me.

The fact that I caught The Roots at a small iconic LA venue but the show lasted 65 minutes and Black Thought (or Kamal) weren't there?

That depressed me.

It's A New Day, People!(c)That trailer catchphrase from that new Cruise flick I'll never watch.

You basically made a generic bitchy argument that you
could make for just about any established artist at
this stage

You chose to go in on the Roots because you have some
residual Lesson-y bad habits...same ones that had you
talking about how awesome Kreayshawn was as recently
as a year ago (not letting up, sorry)

Picking on the Roots is lamest shit in the world, B,
you're better than this.

You're smart, people like your posts, and you're my
message broad sibling so I'm gonna have gone ahead and
be hard on you, use you as an example, and point out when you
don't shit on other established artist's shitty music

I mean, that "Dipshits" song, for example, is cute and
all but is honestly pretty shitty, and you know that

You still found something good to say about it

You could have done the same with this Roots album

Not really with that
----------------------------



O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

.

----------------------------



O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

>I mean, that "Dipshits" song, for example, is cute and
>all but is honestly pretty shitty, and you know that

TAKE IT BACK! lol

Like Brooklyn Whatt said, they just became boring

I loved Game Theory and Rising Down tho.

Haven't cared much for the last two and have no desire to listen to this.

Phrenology will always be weak fuck yall :)

since it's just a series of single sentences with paragraph breaks between each but still I'm not gonna say you & BK don't have the gist of it in a sentence or two.

I was just having some fun with the Tyson cross-stream while listening to the new album in my headphones as I typed, mostly forgetting it was even on save the 'Black (Tempest)' cut which goes kinda hard and then the Raheem closer with the Regina Spektor-sounding piano bounce since it's so much 'lighter' in tone than the entire album leading up to it.

It's a masterpiece.

I have some issues with the new joint. I thought the last album was the operatic concept piece. There's not enough rappity-rap.I'm tired of all these other rappers sharing billing with thought. The albums have gotten increasingly shorter and this one is like 20 minutes long.

But at this point isn't buying a Roots album a little like going to a restaurant that doesn't have menus? Where you know the chef is gonna do his thing and not your thing? Reminds me of that movie 'Jiru dreams of sushi'. If you want it your way there's always burger king. These grandiose muhfuckas, however; play the shit that THEY like. This ain't a flabby Tyson staying in his corner to avoid a knockout. I don't think that they see themselves as going back to the same well twice.


That's why you see the leap between illadelph and TFA and Rising Down and HIGO. The High brow layering can wear thin tho, but what do you expect from a group whose target audience has always been college kids?

I think the Roots take the same approach to their albums that Quest takes to his deejay gigs.

>It's a masterpiece.
>
>I have some issues with the new joint. I thought the last
>album was the operatic concept piece. There's not enough
>rappity-rap.I'm tired of all these other rappers sharing
>billing with thought. The albums have gotten increasingly
>shorter and this one is like 20 minutes long.
>
>But at this point isn't buying a Roots album a little like
>going to a restaurant that doesn't have menus? Where you know
>the chef is gonna do his thing and not your thing? Reminds me
>of that movie 'Jiru dreams of sushi'. If you want it your way
>there's always burger king. These grandiose muhfuckas,
>however; play the shit that THEY like. This ain't a flabby
>Tyson staying in his corner to avoid a knockout. I don't think
>that they see themselves as going back to the same well twice.
>
if they don't see it, they ain't looking hard enough.
>
>
>That's why you see the leap between illadelph and TFA and
>Rising Down and HIGO.

the former feels like a Carl Lewis broad jump while the latter a bunny-hop.

The High brow layering can wear thin
>tho, but what do you expect from a group whose target audience
>has always been college kids?
>
>I think the Roots take the same approach to their albums that
>Quest takes to his deejay gigs.
>
Quest as a DJ is all about 'effective records', even if this was the most Okayplayery crowd possible in the Filo's or Fluid Tasty Treats days, DJ Quest wouldn't have dropped any Roots joint from the past three albums into the middle of set.
>
>
>
>

**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

http://www.tumblr.com/blog/blackpeopleonlocalnews

I think you speak for many of us here...

Personally, I haven't purchased a Roots album since Rising Down

First and foremost, every Roots fan who became a fan within the first wave of albums should have already accepted that The Roots went from 'band' to 'brand' after Hub left. No shade to the new niggas but an O.G. drummer and MC plus a gang of other folk cannot be equated with the band that you first fell in love with.

If Hub leaving wasn't enough the Late Nite spot should have sealed the deal for you. Oh sure The Roots have always been able to cover any and everything with excellence, but they were never a cover band. But what is a late night television band except for that. However many years since they first took to TV there's still more discussion about who they are going to cover for walk on music than the little bits of original shit they get to throw in there. Shit we ain't got no new sammiches in a minute and I don't even watch so for all I know those are gone too.

But after that the biggest tell tale was the fact that the brand was being utilized on other people's albums. Not the band, the brand. These were Roots brand albums with other folk in the spotlight. No matter how good the music, it had to feel at least a little awkward. Even the one A&R'd here in The Lesson (wake up) didn't feel quite right as a "The Roots" album. And yet all of those projects are definitively under the brand, not just featuring the band.

The real kicker though is in an archived post in here where 15 in so many words said he didn't give a fuck about hip-hop no more. Now he was talking specifically about outside of The Roots work, but that lack of interest has to flow back in as well, even if your ace boon coon is one of the best MC's still in the game. When you spend five days a week trying to playing majority non-hip-hop and spend your off hours trying to produce projects that will attract Bill Withers back in to the studio while staying in the good graces of the new media regime who can still use your name as a cred points, getting back to that sound that you're talking about... what does that even mean? How does it even make sense?

Now mind you I'm the weirdo lover and so I'm going to go ahead and say I don't mind the new direction. I think it's relevant as shit. Maybe not to you, but to 15 it kinda makes complete sense. It's a novelty killer. It's a direct attack on the notion that they are a cover band. It's deep as shit really. Uncomfortably so, and I applaud anyone in a position like 15's going for making folk uncomfortable. Or at least attempting to. Because at the end of the day I don't think its quite accessible enough to make the people who it should make uncomfortable uncomfortable. It's barely making the only people who can probably get it (aka the folk on this site) register what it is thematically.

This album is black nihilism presented as satire because no one really cares about the nihlism of blackness in 2014 and yet it's so prevalent. It's not even hopelessness, because hoplessness comes with that since of there could be hope. Things are just presented her as is, this is what we do today. Oh and then you shoot your cousin. Just what happens. All folk can do is just stare at it like 'uh huh'. Nobody can do anything about it. But The Roots are at least trying to address it and that to me is more important than stroking your desire for nostalgia.

But it isn't perfect and that's probably what makes it the most difficult. I'm probably not the only one but I'm so tired of hearing plodding drums on Roots projects. Even if they are crisp and strong sounding when they just plod along all sparse I just keep thinking c'mon.... give the drummer some. Then the singers are all so (sorry) tone deaf it just kills me. Like I know that the quirky not quite on key shit is hip right now, but for me its just a huge disconnect. Get some strong vocalists and some fucking harmonies on those hooks and you could sell the message better. Lastly it's hard to believe Black Thought and even Dice on this mainly because they are spitting the same as when they aren't doing the lyrical theme for the album. Like the spit is raw but the content of it doesn't emote proper. Porn is the saving grace in this respect because he is able to embody the emotion of the characterization.

All of that to say I just want 15 to keep making music. I've accepted the fact that I'm not going to like it all at this point, but I feel like he does have a hand on the undercurrent of the state of blackness and a bit of the cynicism to reflect that even if it goes beyond the audience. Sometimes its more important to say these things than to have them be enjoyed.

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." © Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

>First and foremost, every Roots fan who became a fan within
>the first wave of albums should have already accepted that The
>Roots went from 'band' to 'brand' after Hub left. No shade to
>the new niggas but an O.G. drummer and MC plus a gang of other
>folk cannot be equated with the band that you first fell in
>love with.
>
true but the 'decisionmakers' when it comes to making studio records are still kinda the same, correct?

I mean, other than the tug-of-war winner being much clearer these days.

>If Hub leaving wasn't enough the Late Nite spot should have
>sealed the deal for you. Oh sure The Roots have always been
>able to cover any and everything with excellence, but they
>were never a cover band. But what is a late night television
>band except for that.
that goes back further than that, Jay-Z Unplugged mighta been the real watershed moment in that regard.

However many years since they first took
>to TV there's still more discussion about who they are going
>to cover for walk on music than the little bits of original
>shit they get to throw in there. Shit we ain't got no new
>sammiches in a minute and I don't even watch so for all I know
>those are gone too.
>
I have DVR-d from the jump & check the menu for possible music collabos I'd wanna see but I haven't really noticed those recently, they were never really my thing to look out for anyway.

Take the good stuff & write/make fully realized songs.

>But after that the biggest tell tale was the fact that the
>brand was being utilized on other people's albums. Not the
>band, the brand. These were Roots brand albums with other folk
>in the spotlight. No matter how good the music, it had to
>feel at least a little awkward. Even the one A&R'd here in The
>Lesson (wake up) didn't feel quite right as a "The Roots"
>album. And yet all of those projects are definitively under
>the brand, not just featuring the band.
>
>The real kicker though is in an archived post in here where 15
>in so many words said he didn't give a fuck about hip-hop no
>more.
I don't believe that tho.

There may be an element of 'I work 18-20 hours a day & can't be bothered to follow the movement of the moment these days'.

Touch of 'they never really let us in back when it meant more to us'.

Shades of 'we couldn't satisfy that audience today if we tried so why bother trying'.

But I'll never believe that Questo has ceased to care about hip-hop even if he said it to my face while demonstratively stepping on the 'Criminal Minded' LP cover like Cool C did EST's in the 'Glamorous Life' video.

Now he was talking specifically about outside of The
>Roots work, but that lack of interest has to flow back in as
>well, even if your ace boon coon is one of the best MC's still
>in the game. When you spend five days a week trying to
>playing majority non-hip-hop and spend your off hours trying
>to produce projects that will attract Bill Withers back in to
>the studio while staying in the good graces of the new media
>regime who can still use your name as a cred points, getting
>back to that sound that you're talking about... what does that
>even mean? How does it even make sense?
>
Well then go on and try to make a soul album with Thought sing.

He can actually sing.

At least let him actually sing those hooks that Dice Raw 'crafts' so they might sound passable.

>Now mind you I'm the weirdo lover and so I'm going to go ahead
>and say I don't mind the new direction. I think it's relevant
>as shit. Maybe not to you, but to 15 it kinda makes complete
>sense. It's a novelty killer. It's a direct attack on the
>notion that they are a cover band. It's deep as shit really.
>Uncomfortably so, and I applaud anyone in a position like 15's
>going for making folk uncomfortable. Or at least attempting
>to. Because at the end of the day I don't think its quite
>accessible enough to make the people who it should make
>uncomfortable uncomfortable. It's barely making the only
>people who can probably get it (aka the folk on this site)
>register what it is thematically.
>
because it's not really being articulated in any kind of openly challenging way that gets your attention even if you're looking for it going in, a lot allusions to things & symbolism left open to the listener's interpretation but not presented in a memorable enough way to make you wanna crack the code.

Instrumental walk-on snark minus the connect-the-dots twitter update that might have actually gotten the subject of the scorn to pay attention.

But I don't think that's the objective.

I don't think '75 Bars' would come out post-Fallon.

I don't feel the level of personal investment in the material necessary to make the message feel less muted.

>This album is black nihilism presented as satire because no
>one really cares about the nihlism of blackness in 2014 and
>yet it's so prevalent. It's not even hopelessness, because
>hoplessness comes with that since of there could be hope.
>Things are just presented her as is, this is what we do today.
> Oh and then you shoot your cousin. Just what happens. All
>folk can do is just stare at it like 'uh huh'. Nobody can do
>anything about it. But The Roots are at least trying to
>address it and that to me is more important than stroking your
>desire for nostalgia.
>
I mean on some level there's gotta be a bit of personal nostalgia for a band that helped create so many memories for me onstage over the years particularly during my college & early-to-mid-20s years in Philly, DC/Bmore.

But I don't really miss my 20's in my 30's, a lot of the shit I put myself thru during that era just looks stupid & unnecessarily stressful to me having gained a lick of sense in the subsequent decade.

I don't want them to remake Do You Want More or Things Fall Apart, I just would like to seem them make more interesting music or at least fail in a different way.

I would like to hear some stuff that made me feel the band itself actually believed in strongly.

>But it isn't perfect and that's probably what makes it the
>most difficult. I'm probably not the only one but I'm so
>tired of hearing plodding drums on Roots projects.

Agreed.

Even if
>they are crisp and strong sounding when they just plod along
>all sparse I just keep thinking c'mon.... give the drummer
>some.
The drummer's busy giving the rest of the group the marching orders for the metacritical maffamatical plan.

Then the singers are all so (sorry) tone deaf it just
>kills me.
demo-like, the chick on Pharoahe Monch's 'The Mayor' off Soundbombing II could show up to the set one day and end up doing three 'hooks' long as full duets with Dice Raw.


Like I know that the quirky not quite on key shit
>is hip right now, but for me its just a huge disconnect. Get
>some strong vocalists and some fucking harmonies on those
>hooks and you could sell the message better. Lastly it's hard
>to believe Black Thought and even Dice on this mainly because
>they are spitting the same as when they aren't doing the
>lyrical theme for the album. Like the spit is raw but the
>content of it doesn't emote proper. Porn is the saving grace
>in this respect because he is able to embody the emotion of
>the characterization.
>
Yeah he does his thing.

But really, while I know what you mean, I ain't here for him anymore than I was for Consequence in '96.

If he's the only one 'embodying' it then maybe make it a record for him rather than having the sorta-new-guy-with-the-terrible-name in there as a vessel for someone else rather than displaying chemistry with the group's frontman.

>All of that to say I just want 15 to keep making music. I've
>accepted the fact that I'm not going to like it all at this
>point, but I feel like he does have a hand on the undercurrent
>of the state of blackness and a bit of the cynicism to reflect
>that even if it goes beyond the audience. Sometimes its more
>important to say these things than to have them be enjoyed.
>
Well then let him go all Neal Pert & write the lyrics.

Or make Questo & His All-Starr Band records with the kinds of people who might be interested & suited to carrying out that vision.

It's a little awkward as is with Thought not having as much to do as a bumper/backing late-night band anyway, don't add to the limitations by having him color in the lines of what the bandleader conceptualized but isn't able to articulate lyrically or express vocally.

'Topical'/headline/message-driven material has never been Tariq's wheelhouse.

He's great at straight emceeing/bragadocio, honing in on topic's that hit close to home (Water, the joint on Wake Up, What They Do), is great at the female song or a story song (even better a combination of the two) or sometimes just utilizing his voice/verses as an additional instrument.

The Game Theory 'we-didn't-start-the-fire' grocery list of societal ills with no solutions offered or issue examined past surface level was really where it started down that path.
Instead it's getting lost in the translation when

>█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
>Big PEMFin H & z's
>"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1
>thing, a musician." © Miles
>
>"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

>Well then go on and try to make a soul album with Thought
>sing.
>
>He can actually sing.
>

>This album is black nihilism presented as satire because no
>one really cares about the nihlism of blackness in 2014 and
>yet it's so prevalent. It's not even hopelessness, because
>hoplessness comes with that since of there could be hope.
>Things are just presented her as is, this is what we do today.
> Oh and then you shoot your cousin. Just what happens. All
>folk can do is just stare at it like 'uh huh'. Nobody can do
>anything about it. But The Roots are at least trying to
>address it and that to me is more important than stroking your
>desire for nostalgia.
>

>All of that to say I just want 15 to keep making music. I've
>accepted the fact that I'm not going to like it all at this
>point, but I feel like he does have a hand on the undercurrent
>of the state of blackness and a bit of the cynicism to reflect
>that even if it goes beyond the audience. Sometimes its more
>important to say these things than to have them be enjoyed.





Those two paragraphs are my favorite things I've read about this album.
Especially that last sentence.

IRT, the nihilism, concept, etc...

was that your impression when KRS spit that line 15-20 years ago

'then they wind up shooting they cousin, and they buggin'

you obviously put alot of thought into your reply

but this is where you lost...


"But it isn't perfect and that's probably what makes it the most difficult. I'm probably not the only one but I'm so tired of hearing plodding drums on Roots projects. Even if they are crisp and strong sounding when they just plod along all sparse I just keep thinking c'mon.... give the drummer some. Then the singers are all so (sorry) tone deaf it just kills me. Like I know that the quirky not quite on key shit is hip right now, but for me its just a huge disconnect. Get some strong vocalists and some fucking harmonies on those hooks and you could sell the message better. Lastly it's hard to believe Black Thought and even Dice on this mainly because they are spitting the same as when they aren't doing the lyrical theme for the album. Like the spit is raw but the content of it doesn't emote proper. Porn is the saving grace in this respect because he is able to embody the emotion of the characterization."

^^^why would anything else even matter

if it's not good, why can't we just say it's not good

SON! It's not a good album.

You can get all insightful, reach for logic about the deeper meaning of the lyrics, concept, etc...

but when we're talking about music

if the music isn't good, why would any of this other BS plea cops that folks are quick to hide behind even factor in

MFers tryin' to convince themselves to like it

>was that your impression when KRS spit that line 15-20 years
>ago
>
>'then they wind up shooting they cousin, and they buggin'

word because the album title is obviously a *direct* quote of that line which is in *direct* reference to the context of the quote as played out for the *entire* project. (<<sarcasm, congrats on passing hip-hop 104 though).

>you obviously put alot of thought into your reply

And you obviously didn't pay close enough attention and jumped to conclusions for yours.

>but this is where you lost...

implying that i lost. lost what? was there something up for debate. was i trying to win something, or maybe just have an intelligent conversation with my boy Bomb?

>
>"But it isn't perfect and that's probably what makes it the
>most difficult. I'm probably not the only one but I'm so tired
>of hearing plodding drums on Roots projects. Even if they are
>crisp and strong sounding when they just plod along all sparse
>I just keep thinking c'mon.... give the drummer some. Then the
>singers are all so (sorry) tone deaf it just kills me. Like I
>know that the quirky not quite on key shit is hip right now,
>but for me its just a huge disconnect. Get some strong
>vocalists and some fucking harmonies on those hooks and you
>could sell the message better. Lastly it's hard to believe
>Black Thought and even Dice on this mainly because they are
>spitting the same as when they aren't doing the lyrical theme
>for the album. Like the spit is raw but the content of it
>doesn't emote proper. Porn is the saving grace in this respect
>because he is able to embody the emotion of the
>characterization."

Love the way you selectively chose to leave out the part where I explicitly say it's not perfect and in fact a difficult listen.

>^^^why would anything else even matter

Because the topic of discussion isn't whether or not the album is good but rather the state of the group and how the album fits in with their legacy.

>if it's not good, why can't we just say it's not good

You can say whatever you want to.

>SON! It's not a good album.

Thanks for sharing. Just note that nowhere in my post did I say it was good. Nor did I even say I liked the album. Closest I came is saying I like the direction that The Roots are going. But even that was contextualized for me as an individual who enjoys off kilter shit. But despite that I clearly imply the execution was lacking which was the point of the paragraph you selectively swiped.

>You can get all insightful, reach for logic about the deeper
>meaning of the lyrics, concept, etc...
>
>but when we're talking about music

Actually we're talking about something more than music. We're talking about art intended to carry a message not just entertain. You want to be entertained, it's quite obvious The Roots albums are no longer targeted toward you. If you want to be engaged in something which may have a meaning more profound then what you hear on the surface then maybe you should continue to listen. Doesn't bother me either way, I'm just saying don't dismiss what they are doing as being sub standard. They've changed their standards. Evaluate it on its own merits or find something else.

>if the music isn't good, why would any of this other BS plea
>cops that folks are quick to hide behind even factor in
>
>MFers tryin' to convince themselves to like it

No one's trying to convince anyone of anything, let alone myself. I'm just trying to provide context which you either got or missed completely. If you missed it completely maybe it wasn't meant for you at all.

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." © Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

You put together this well thought out dissertation on the message, importance, etc...of this album

my point was, none of that matters when you end up getting to the critique of the music

and come to the same conclusion

it isn't good

I don't give a FOK about a message if you deliver it on a turd

kinda hard to digest

to add on

look at examples like Bob and Fela

both passed away before I became familiar with their music

now just to listen to it musically, feels upbeat almost happy and full of life

now when you listen to the actual lyrics, you get the social commentary, political messages, etc...

that's what I'm saying

they have a message, Congrats

I don't give a FOK, because it's not listenable.

and that should be the end of it

furthermore

let's not pretend like this is some new, ground breaking, message

all this is is What They Do, as told in first person, for 2 albums.

hip-hop has long been aware of the pitfalls of hip-hop going mainstream, and MCs have been speaking on it for well over 20 years

after De La trolled the internet with their catalog, a song like Patti Dooke was just incredible to listen to in 2014

being Roots fans, are we even the target audience for this message?

I don't subscribe to the mainstream, I am the sub-culture

and I think that is what brought most of us here

now, instead of getting the music, good music, soul music

which by the way, did have a message

we're getting doom and gloom for 4 albums now

I can't clap to that, even if it is some grand undertaking, blah blah blah

it's not good.

or move on." © me

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." © Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fPRqvBIqYU

he tried to low-key spark that flame from multiple directions & Thought handled that like a pro while straightening him out on the subject.

they talk abt what we're talking abt.

this one is good too (w/ sway)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mqhwaylvuws

But it was an interesting read like always Bombay. I get the feeling that I'm still always interested in their records cause I'm looking for something different. I've never really seen them as a good singles group....or anthems or that type of thing. They're like the opposite of Naughty by Nature. They can never make that one track that makes people crazy. But for me, there is always something interesting in every song. Even if I don't like the melody/hook/chords.....there's just always some of thoughtful production technique.

The most obvious thing....is the drum engineering. The Roots have what? maybe 100 officially released tracks? That means they got 100 distinctive drum set sounds right there. Moreso than any other band in any other genre....the drum sounds on Roots records are so incredibly varied and experimental. I might have voiced this opinion here before...but yah. Every song has a different drum kit it seems. And I'd say a HUGE part of Quest's artistry is exercised through his drum engineering...experimenting with gear, mic placement, treatment.

The other thing...I'd say the Roots have become alot more artsier. As I was saying before....I've never really seen them as great at anthemic stuff. I'm just about to check out the new album...but I think you're right when you say they haven't added to the cannon of Roots-type half-hits (that was kinda mean) like 'you got me' and 'the seed'. But as I said before...my liking of them isn't much about that. I think they've just become an interesting kinda reflective listen. It's intellectual. Lyrics too....but mostly in the production. There's alot of conceptual approach in all the arranging and recording. I see it as intellectual and artsy. Even with all the production techniques...I'd say these things:

-Quest has gotten more subtle with production techniques that play off of the lyrics/theme of the song. But while being a little less heavy-handed...he's also become more adventurous.

-They've become more conceptual and almost....theatrical in the content. I don't mean theatrical in the sense of hype hip hop jumpoffs....there's less of that. I mean that some of their stuff is almost starting to sound like a radio play. Less focus in finding that wicked riff/groove....more focus on trying to service a story. So from a writing perspective...they've become much more focused. No more banging beats that just happen to have a narrative. The narrative is coming before the music.

So I can see how someone might suggest they're getting boring. I think it depends on what you're looking for.

>But it was an interesting read like always Bombay. I get the
>feeling that I'm still always interested in their records
>cause I'm looking for something different. I've never really
>seen them as a good singles group....or anthems or that type
>of thing. They're like the opposite of Naughty by Nature.
>They can never make that one track that makes people crazy.
>But for me, there is always something interesting in every
>song. Even if I don't like the melody/hook/chords.....there's
>just always some of thoughtful production technique.
>
>The most obvious thing....is the drum engineering. The Roots
>have what? maybe 100 officially released tracks? That means
>they got 100 distinctive drum set sounds right there. Moreso
>than any other band in any other genre....the drum sounds on
>Roots records are so incredibly varied and experimental. I
>might have voiced this opinion here before...but yah. Every
>song has a different drum kit it seems. And I'd say a HUGE
>part of Quest's artistry is exercised through his drum
>engineering...experimenting with gear, mic placement,
>treatment.
>
>The other thing...I'd say the Roots have become alot more
>artsier. As I was saying before....I've never really seen
>them as great at anthemic stuff. I'm just about to check out
>the new album...but I think you're right when you say they
>haven't added to the cannon of Roots-type half-hits (that was
>kinda mean) like 'you got me' and 'the seed'. But as I said
>before...my liking of them isn't much about that. I think
>they've just become an interesting kinda reflective listen.
>It's intellectual. Lyrics too....but mostly in the
>production. There's alot of conceptual approach in all the
>arranging and recording. I see it as intellectual and artsy.
>Even with all the production techniques...I'd say these
>things:
>
>-Quest has gotten more subtle with production techniques that
>play off of the lyrics/theme of the song. But while being a
>little less heavy-handed...he's also become more adventurous.
>
>-They've become more conceptual and almost....theatrical in
>the content. I don't mean theatrical in the sense of hype hip
>hop jumpoffs....there's less of that. I mean that some of
>their stuff is almost starting to sound like a radio play.
>Less focus in finding that wicked riff/groove....more focus on
>trying to service a story. So from a writing
>perspective...they've become much more focused. No more
>banging beats that just happen to have a narrative. The
>narrative is coming before the music.
>
I agree the narrative is coming before the music, problem is the narrative isn't fully defined or presented in an interesting enough way to carry the day.

And this is a band, the music and energy it created around it has always been more vital than any narrative.

>So I can see how someone might suggest they're getting boring.
> I think it depends on what you're looking for.

The Roots to me always were more like another Philly dude Bernard Hopkins. B Hop never experienced the extreme highs of someone like Tyson or De La Hoya but he is always there, always consistent. Now he maybe a bit past his prime but his still can go out there and win even if he doesn't have a Trindad KO moment in him anymore he still has the skill to jump up and surprise you. The Roots were never Kanye level but they were always putting out consistently quality material and keeping a significant portion of their fan base happy.

So far this album isn't really doing it for me and I didn't expect it to from what Quest described. I have to disagree with you though that they've been making the same album for the past 8 to 9 years. I really liked How I Got Over and Rising Down was probably my favorite album of 2008 regardless of genre. I recently started listening to Undun again this past february and I was surprised how much I liked it. I won't listen to it the way I listen to Game Theory or some of my other favorite Roots album but it's still quality and to me a better "concept" record than this one is. I agree with some of your other points later in the post about their use of Capt. Kirk. I am surprised that after what 10 years in the group they've never been able to record a an album, a song or anything that takes advantage of what he brings to the group. I think he and Black Thought could make some really banging, rocking shit that would really bang in the car. In fact I think part of what might be lacking with this release and some of their other side projects is the feeling that the band is a little too big.At times they feel a bit bloated to me and more like a compilation than an airtight band.

I don't know who that would be closest for Tyson but until I hear or think of a better one I'll go with 50 Cent, they've already got a Jersey mansion in common.

Just the old fight-game adage for the scientifically unproven, legally inadmissible, intangible bordering on mystical moment when the mind makes room for the notion of a 'moral victory'.

or analysis

art & competitive sports are just too different & frankly this line of thinking & analogizing has failed hip-hop culture on multiple occasions & is one sign of how ppl treat it like a game rather than an attempt to create something meaningful

so you can save that lament for when you come across someone checking box scores and soundscans.

and that's a problem when it comes to something as subjective & varied as art

is this album

you and the sychophants cosigning you

ive listened to the album at least 10-15 times since i got it

it's fantastic, interesting & often downright beautiful

but it seems many here lack the intellect or the understanding to process it beyond their surface level reaction

and that's fine, you guys got Rick Ross to turn to...enjoy

>but it seems many here lack the intellect or the understanding
>to process it beyond their surface level reaction
>
>and that's fine, you guys got Rick Ross to turn to...enjoy

a person who lives & operates in the adult world but still has the mentality & comprehension of a child

if you ever make an alias, may i recommend "Toys R Us kid"?

>a person who lives & operates in the adult world but still
>has the mentality & comprehension of a child
>
>if you ever make an alias, may i recommend "Toys R Us kid"?

A person making perpetual efforts in futility to author good posts or tell funny jokes.

Good luck guy, hope it all comes together for you one of these days.

my bad fam. i fell for the troll bait. it was too late before i realized it was a new account.

It's not even that deep. You're over-analyzing the negative response to the album. The album is easy to get. We just want more Thought. End of story.

that the project is flying over all of you guys' heads

bc the work Thought does on the album is pretty fuckin solid my man, he kills it everytime

but i guess w/ yall, quantity >>> quality

He kills it every time but he's on less than 50% of the album. I don't get what you're missing? Sounds like you haven't been a fan of The Roots very long. Otherwise you would get what I'm saying.

to Static on Rap City

sounds like maybe i grew up since then

Then you should know how less of a role Thought has on the newer material. Keep pretending though fam.

Roots album?

did you notice Tariq is listed as co producer on every song on the album?

maybe you guys aren't really fans of the group as much as fans of the MC?

that's cool, but instead of acting like the album is deficient maybe recognize that it's not for you & move on

You can get co production credit for saying "yeah, I like that beat." Means nothing to me. He doesn't play any instruments but keep on defending the lack of Thought on this album.

you guys sound a little ungrateful

Yeah and Raheem Devaughn has a solo song on the album. Something Thought does not have.

and closes the album on a perfect note

but nah, you rap guys just want more bars smh

>I don't know who that would be closest for Tyson but until I
>hear or think of a better one I'll go with 50 Cent, they've
>already got a Jersey mansion in common.

50 is a perfect parallel for Tyson. Meteoric rise, fascinating "street oriented" background that added to the mythology. Massive success and then an extreme falloff (record sales wise at least for 50)
>
>Just the old fight-game adage for the scientifically unproven,
>legally inadmissible, intangible bordering on mystical moment
>when the mind makes room for the notion of a 'moral victory'.

Even this I disagree with a bit because I truly get the feeling that Quest and company are happy with what they are doing. It may not appeal to you or to a broad audience but I actually think it's something that they are proud of and I respect that. That's a part of what art and music is.

I'm still deciding how I truly feel about this record. My initial reaction was utter discontent, but reading more press/interviews and repeated listens are making me tolerate it a bit more.

That said, a record you can tolerate isn't exactly high praise. And while I'm generally in the "haven't really loved an album since GT" camp, I will continue to check out and support what they do, if only because

a) as one of the most important bands in my life, they've earned my attention, and

b) not all art is supposed to instantly resonate with you. There have been many albums that have permanent spots in my highest ranking that I initially hated.

all opinions are welcome but this is boring.

if it doesn't inspire you, don't listen. give it a spin a few months from now - revisit the record next year. to act as if you've digested this record ( or it's predecessor fully ) is pretentious at best and disingenuous at worse.

i'm enjoying the tone and energy of this record. the growth is apparent.

cheers.








stillnoteatingadick

agreed wholeheartedly.

spent much more time processing the last two album than I have.

Charging someone else with being 'pretentious at best and disingenuous at worse' is often the kind of phrase that boomerangs back to its source.

So please don't start telling on yourself while trying to tell me something.

I have no reason to pretend to not like this record, nor did I say I disliked the last one.

So then all we're left with is you being mad that I decided to write a long-form post/essay about it, when the reality is if you wanted to express your boredom about what I wrote the best way to do so would be to not read or reply.

'Pretentious' is usually a default mechanism for 'boring' posters and most of them likely couldn't articulate what they're actually referring to nor what it means.

>As The Roots have amazingly become the world's greatest house
>band sharing stages with the president & Paul McCartney on
>national TV, it's pretty clear they're not even really trying
>that hard anymore on these LPs.

Problem #1 is here for me: I can completely understand not liking this record, or their last few, and that's fine. But how one can honestly listen to either undun or ATYSYC and think they're "not even really trying that hard anymore" is baffling to me... this screams trying. If anything they might be trying too hard.

More accurate, maybe: they're certainly not trying to record anything approaching either a classic (read: boom bap?) or current popular hip hop sound or aesthetic. They're not interested in it. But the attention to arrangements + production + execution + experimentation exudes hard work. Thought's verses exude hard work. Nothing about this sounds lazy to me.

>Yet Questo, the hardest-working-man-in-show-business, is a
>student of the game and knows what affectations/associations
>will serve to maintain his Metacritic score each time out.
>
>But like an old friend who has to keep it true, it's time to
>admit that we've now been hearing some variation of this same
>blueprint for ten years

>And I won't even get into the records growing increasingly
>darker in content & aggressively more 'difficult' as some sort
>of subconscious antithesis to the crowd-pleasing band you see
>on TV.
>
>What you end up with is skillfully played but somewhat
>ponderous music cloaked in all the accoutrements and murky
>meaningfulness that the critics/certain fans will proudly
>proclaim they like but long-term very few truly love.

Problem #2 is in here somewhere. I really don't hear this stuff as a play for critical attention. For one thing, they're at a point in their career where they'll get critical attention no matter what they drop. They could *actually* "not try" right now and they'd probably get critical love. (With the caveat being that they do, of course, run the risk of being accused of dropping off post-Fallon.) I have no doubt that the guys are aware of their critical status, and that's a factor in their work. But I don't think these records are a chase for praise. They feel far too honest for that, flaws and all.

I always think it's funny when folks project a short-term/long-term delay/denial upon listeners: "you *think* you like it now, but you'll forget it soon." This is always a possibility, but I'm not sure it's one that anyone can predict. It also dismisses the possibility that projects will *grow* over time and take root in a person's life, like the best one's do.

>A month or two after this album when they do a show in New
>York/Philly/LA, the band will be back to playing Next
>Movement, Proceed, backing other artists and closing with You
>Got Me/Seed 2.0.
>
>Short story now 'get a damn blog, Bomb!' long......none of
>this new shit sticks to the ribs.

I sort of agree with this. Might this be more about band/audience relationship than the music itself, though? I think there are more memorable tracks than folks let on (from this, undun, higo). That they don't fit with the old stuff - at least not easily - is probably true, but I'm not sure that this has anything to do with its merit.

>This new album is hopefully the nadir of albums made in this
>style, the sonic/thematic mood is like some sort of dystopian
>Gorillaz record where the rap verses are ancillary, minor keys
>are unrelenting, a few string breaks are interjected, the
>tempos rarely change and the hooks feel like elongated funeral
>dirges that you instantly forget when they mercifully end.
>
>After their umpteenth 'challenging' indie-rock/art-hop album
>in a row, the challenge The Legendary seem least up for taking
>on is attempting to make entertaining music with any degree of
>rap energy or rock danger.

Blah. Which of their records qualify as "indie-rock/art-hop albums"? I might concede that for undun and this one (though with much hesitation, as that phrase is completely non-descript and means pretty much nothing, but I think I catch the drift of it). And I don't hear the verses on either of those records as ancillary at all. In fact, the reduction of verses on this one makes them stand out all the more, which I think is quite smart. I've probably paid more attention to the lyrics on this album than any of their stuff in a while.

As for the monotony of the arrangements, I think it's overstated, but whatever.

>>Hate to be the 'you grandiose motherfuckas don't play the shit
>that they like' type but fuck it, after 20 years of countless
>shows, embarrassing numbers of posts & double-digit automatic
>album purchases I guess I feel like I've earned the right to
>gripe.

After listening to this record a few more times, I'm willing to go out on a limb and say it's their best since Rising Down (which I think is excellent); that's a tentative thought, though, it will probably change over time. Most of the complaints I hear about it seem juvenile to me, and are far more concerned with The Roots not sounding like they did during X period or X album, than any real (substantial) complaint about the quality of the music itself. Little willingness to suspend disbelief and try and absorb it; ample knee-jerk "there are no singles" "not enough Thought" "it's too moody" reactions.

So basically: here we are now, entertain us! Which is pretty depressing, imo. The monologue from TFA is actually quite apt: convincing folks that it might take a different posture, a different approach to engage something as art is a lost cause.

-thebigfunk

~ i could still snort you under the table ~

my feelings are similar, except I wouldn't be able to articulate them nearly as well given my lack of motivation to give their recent albums half as many listens as you clearly have.

All I can say is I ain't mad at ATCQ hanging it up after Love Movement. Not to be on some vague shit but there's a certain kind of magic you just can't expect to recreate.

Also, I don't know if having a "depressing" sound is all that problematic. Illadelph Halflife was dark as hell IMO...and it might be my fav album of all time.

"and the recording dynamic?

Well we don’t really record together per se, you know. My manager, Richard Nichols, who also executive produces a lot of The Roots stuff, he works with Greg P.O.R.N., who’s an MC who’s always featured on Roots albums, and Dice Raw, Karl Dice Jenkins, who is just pretty much my writing partner, the three of them collaborate often on music that will become The Roots music before it’s officially Roots music.

They’ll collaborate, as far as what their ideas are, for beats that may or may not work, and Dice will start coming up with choruses, and he’ll try and come up with a verse of his own, and P.O.R.N. usually comes up with one of the first verses out of our crew that I hear on any of our records. For all intensive purposes, they’re kind of like the – they’re the recording nucleus of The Roots. If we need to outsource a producer, or a musician, to get something right sonically, they’re kind of able to do that before Questlove and I have to approve everything or really come into the picture. Like I said, it’s an ongoing thing – whereas I’ve been working on this album – there’s some stuff that I recorded 6-8 months ago. Some beats that I’ve been listening to, a couple of different arrangements that I’ve been taking under consideration for the past year and a half or so. But, these – Rich Nichols, Dice Raw, Greg P.O.R.N., they’ve been actually working on this album for 3 years. It’s just weird. It’s a weird, dysfunctional – we’re like dysfunction junction. …but it works out in the end, kind of thing."


My guess is this has been the process since RD or HIGO.

Remember when RD was to be the last Roots album? Maybe it really was the last album recorded together so to speak.

May explain why some of us feel like they don't feel like Roots albums anymore, and speaks to the brand point made above...



Whole interview is here, good read.

http://rapverbiage.com/2014/03/08/black-thought/

vonpea.com

..and this one, short and sweet as it is, may even be better.

still trying to figure out how i feel about the new one, but i loved both of them.

I was never able to get into Undun, but HIGO is one of my favorite Roots albums. Maybe my 3rd favorite.

pur this sucker in a box like dracula

I personally dig it hard.

I do really like the interludes but I also think that the lack of black thought perception is really more of a album length issue. He is only missing from one song, there just aren't a lot of songs on the album.

You got 8 actual songs on this album. Two of those songs Thought doesn't appear on at all. The other 6 songs he's kickin' one short verse per. His vocal duties have been getting cut shorter and shorter with each release post Game Theory.

p.s. I dig all three interludes

I'd consider all the songs that he is not on an interlude except for tomorrow. You are right about the verses though.

I'm surprised Bombastic hasn't outgrown it, though

ppl talking about the current album?
the roots?
critiques of art and the artist?


why do you try doing some of that?
just once.

it can be fun to actually talk about music
on a music messageboard.

Have nothing but love/respect for them as a band and as individual people.

Would also guarantee that I've spent more money on Roots-related product, frequented more tangentially-Roots-related-events (Quest DJ gigs, Black Lillys, Dice Raw/Scratch/Rahzel/Thought club shows/appearances, Malik B charitable donations, etc) and seen more Roots concerts than anyone on this site in a wider variety of venues/cities/lineups.

So we can dead any and all of that immediately as it pertains to me.

I'll get back to some of the more detailed replies at a later point but I'm about to drive from LA to the Bay within the hour.

Everyone have a nice holiday weekend.

I'm gonna be harder on you to make my general point
about the lesson because I know you're not wimpy

So I'm gonna innn homie

We need to stop the double standards up in this piece

If Jay can make doo doo then so can the Roots (again, Roots
ain't mailing it in like Jay is though...Jay barely gives
two fucks on the mic, hasn't since American Gangster)

Anything other than that is a double standard


>I'll get back to some of the more detailed replies at a later
>point but I'm about to drive from LA to the Bay within the
>hour.

Award tour

>Everyone have a nice holiday weekend.

Yeah no diggety

you have every right to be critical & express how you feel abt the record but it seems a bit odd to feel compelled to discuss how much money you've spent on the band to legitimize your feelings

>you have every right to be critical & express how you feel
>abt the record but it seems a bit odd to feel compelled to
>discuss how much money you've spent on the band to legitimize
>your feelings

while okayplayers crawl in to fellate you on it

but if someone takes it in another direction & exposes how narrow in scope & degree your mind works in regards to this topic (first thing being that sports analogies ALWAYS fail at describing art to anyone but simpletons), then you begin to talk about being "pressed"

like i said above...man-child

>
>

:)

>that I've spent more money on
>Roots-related product, frequented more
>tangentially-Roots-related-events (Quest DJ gigs, Black
>Lillys, Dice Raw/Scratch/Rahzel/Thought club
>shows/appearances, Malik B charitable donations, etc) and seen
>more Roots concerts than anyone on this site in a wider
>variety of venues/cities/lineups.

ppbbtt.

doubt it-

one of the best things I've read in a while.

i may have a spot for you to write.

inbox me your email.

>one of the best things I've read in a while.
>
>i may have a spot for you to write.
>
>inbox me your email.

http://freshselects.com
Low Leaf - AKASHAALAY http://bit.ly/_FSX-003
Mndsgn - Inedia remix EP http://bit.ly/FSX-002_
Mndsgn - Breatharian album http://bit.ly/FSX001_

Blind purchase, I didn't wanna bother with the stream... I shoulda bought a bag of weed instead.

for the first time in a while and it just amazes me how much it just DOESN'T grab me. There are certain moments of each song that I really like, like the warped sounding vocals of "Never" or the switch up of the beat of "Tomorrow", but in general this album leaves me really cold..and I am someone who really REALLY enjoyed How I Got Over and LOVED Undun. I think the best tracks are probably "The Dark" and "Understand", although black thought's verse on "When The People Cheer" was dope as shit. I don't know why "Never" had to end as pretty much...a horribly sung hook...definitely one of the low points on the album for me. Moving on, like many have said, it needs more Black Thought, allot of the hooks and guest singers here are just not up to par with what I expected. I'm all for experimentation, or whatever people want to call it, but I guess this experiment, overall, just was not for me. Its the first roots album I don't like...

the variety & lack of repitition, the calculatedly "avant garde" moments and the non traditional transitions & song structures

it all grabs me and pulls me in & compells me to listen again & again

the sequencing is amazing & on multiple listens, to me, it really forms into a coherent single piece of art

& after reading abt the way the album was made, this is hardly from an "organic" studio session type of thing but somehow it all comes together like a masterful & perfectly distilled avant garde mixtape

i feel like folks who dont like it, if yall were Trane fans in the late 50s/early 60s, yall woulda panned his work when he started doing the "new thing"

but to many thats his best & most engaging & satisfying work

*shrug*

was what originally brought me to the lesson.

>

I stand corrected.

I liked Vicky Christina Barcelona

Yet, to have your post tell it, they're all one long album.

Admitting you don't like a band any more is one thing. Arguing that because you don't like them, they objectively making the same album over and over is another. The former's your opinion. The latter's just wrong.

edit: and this piece right here --> "the challenge The Legendary seem least up for taking on is attempting to make entertaining music with any degree of rap energy or rock danger." Rap energy? What does that even mean? Black Thought has been rapping his ass off on every album sans Undun (which I think is the nadir of BT emceeing).

___

http://www.newgoldenera.com

http://tinyurl.com/liberators2 - anarchy in two dimensions

i've been trying.

one day, men'll understand-

you could say that their last few records have a dark mood to them, but that's about it. even though this album is dark, it's not quite as dark as undun, there are some funny moments on here.

Thought is always gonna rap his ass off, that wasn't what I was referring to there.

I meant these albums (particularly this one & HIGO) lack that know-it-when-you-hear-it energy you catch off a great rap record or the primal danger-courting rawness of a great rock song.

It's an album that couches itself in aural accoutrements, vaguely addresses weighty themes, is performed for the most part skillfully but the end result sounds like a half-baked half-hour placeholder for a band that now makes studio records as a part-time job.

"For Who, For What?"(c)RickyWaters is this 30 minutes of minor-key mishmash and mid-tempo monotony really for beyond its metacritic score?

Is there a single song or even segment of a song on here that can stand amongst the band's best work?

Does this album have the ability to re-invigorate longtime fans, seduce/frighten potential new ones who came around from their network-TV-smash success, is there any conceivable chance for it to later be considered a cult-classic amongst the catalog that a certain passionately contrarian portion of their audience will one day deem their favorite?

Now that I think about it (no shots at u or others who don't apply).......

It seems almost poetically appropriate that this album's biggest champion inside the corroded confines of our bombed-out-and-depleted but still battling-to-draw-breath Lesson, would turn out to be one of its most joyless/arguing-just-to-argue/men-on-film-hated-it/each-week-new-name-still-same-lame-game.

even longer since we called him Klang

putting out LPs no more.

they proved their point and put in their time.. everything else is just gravy.

because they love music and got the resources to do it.

It's just rather than laboring over the joints for 2-3 years, they're now they're dropping albums like jazz artist pace between their albums/collabos.

Glad they can do what they want now but I'd guess that has a hand in the level of quality between albums like this new one and any of the first four records specifically.

My two cents on this wonderful opus of music that & Then You Shoot Your Cousin is...

http://www.willmakebeatsforfood.com/2014/05/i-cant-call-it-then-you-shoot-your.html

My two cents on this wonderful opus of music that & Then You Shoot Your Cousin is...

http://www.willmakebeatsforfood.com/2014/05/i-cant-call-it-then-you-shoot-your.html

>My two cents on this wonderful opus of music that & Then You
>Shoot Your Cousin is...
>
>http://www.willmakebeatsforfood.com/2014/05/i-cant-call-it-then-you-shoot-your.html

i had to stop when you made concept album synonymous with a story

::FAIL::

Why? A concept album is defined as studio album where all musical or lyrical ideas contribute to a single overall theme or story. Prince Amongst Thieves was a concept album, which had a story. Organized Konfusion's "Equinox" was a concept album...with a story. Hell, Monch's PTSD is a concept album...with a story. Guess the Roots get the pass tho...smh.

just because those concept albums were based around narratives don't mean all concept albums have to be story based.

it takes a nations was a concept album

de la's 1st 3 albums were concept albums

any album based around a CONCEPT is a concept album. concept does not equal story

I had intended to write a similar piece after hearing the latest cd. I think it all comes down to the fact that as you said they do not need record sales. They are paid by NBC, so they can make self indulgent records that appeal to a small niche.

I liked all Roots records up to Game Theory. After that they crossed over to the dark side. The cd running time got shorter and the songs darker. I have nothing against dark songs but do it in a way that makes you want to hear the song again.

I'll never forget them performing HIGO on Fallon. It was magic. Then when I heard the track on the cd there was no James Brown sample and the song just seemed average.

Like U2 who transformed into another band on Zooropa and POP but came back to form on All You Can Leave Behind I had hoped that The Roots would do a similar return to form with every cd but they are now 4 deep into cd's that are dark and little running time (despite having their own studio) and I realize that this is not going to happen. This sis what they want to do God bless them but I no longer consider myself a fan.

A very small niche. They didn't even move 20k. How long can they stay on a major with those numbers? Quest already said he doesn't want to go the indie route.

>How long can
>they stay on a major with those numbers?

I remember that vividly, and how hype I was for the album

as a lifelong Roots fan, I made a conscious effort to support them on the LNJF shows

but then the album was just meh

and now we're 3 albums deep into blah territory

hindsight being 20/20

I wonder if THEY regret taking the gig

if it means this is what the fans get, I know I do.

that show has changed their lives for the better on a personal level in a myriad of ways.

They gave me plenty, plus the musical collabs on the show have been things I'd never thought I'd see.

I'm proud of those guys in the space that they've been able to occupy and the amount of time they've been in this for without any real legit 'hits' to carry them.

I don't begrudge them their success for a minute, just gotta say theiir albums being the part-time gig now is readily apparent over the course of these last few records.

status before copping albums from this point forward.


>I had intended to write a similar piece after hearing the
This sis what they want to
>do God bless them but I no longer consider myself a fan.

i like the hopkins reference and I see it like this:

When Phrenology came out, I felt that it was time for a change. Thought lost his right hand, the Roots had to top themselves after winning the grammy and being what everyone thought they should be. they start getting darker and were particularly dark from Game Theory on. This is their most artistic, reality touching period in their careers.

I know that people hate to hear this, but I think that the story will always be the same. with most music listeners you form you standards between 12 and 25 and want to hear something similar to that for most of your selections afterwards. we would love to hear Things Fall Apart part 2 but it wont happen. the roots are trying harder and harder to set themselves apart from the 15 minute mc who can spit a hot 16. they want to do their tales about their lives and channel to younger fans through Porn, North, STS and Dice.

But who cares...


Think what you want...

sports/art analogies NEVER work

and people who think they do might have a very limited concept of what art is & can be