Last thread was a hot flaming mess. This is the last we will speak of it.

Discuss the album. Discuss the lyrics. Discuss the music. Any name calling, sniping, and whining will not be tolerated.

Have fun.

I'm not sure how I feel about the album, though. It feels massively overproduced to me.

musically, it's the kind of album someone who doesn't like hip-hop would claim to be elevating the art form.

there's even a motherfucking saxophone solo.

maybe it will click with me after a few more listens.

>It feels massively overproduced to me.

although i would describe it more as "dense"

theres a lot to unpack, a lot to digest, a lot that gets revealed listen after listen.
which is why i like it so much i think.

Even F&L, which may or may not still be his best after this record gets fully appreciated, you "get" all of the songs pretty quickly.
So i think this record makes you work for it a bit more, but its sonically very palatable, so doing that doesn't become a chore, its more of an adventure.

>I'm not sure how I feel about the album, though. It feels
>massively overproduced to me.

I'd say I only feel that way about four of the last five tracks. Particularly the ones produced by DJ Dahi. I'm okay with the rest of the beats.

>musically, it's the kind of album someone who doesn't like
>hip-hop would claim to be elevating the art form.

See, this is exactly how I felt about MBDTF, seeing as it got exactly those type of comments. This album doesn't feel as overcooked to me. And the lyricism displayed makes me cut it a lot of slack. And it's not like MM2, where the lyricism was great, but the beat swere mostly unlistenable. For the strength of lyricism shines through here.

>See, this is exactly how I felt about MBDTF, seeing as it got
>exactly those type of comments.

that album was the next stage of Kanye's ambition after GRADUATION, even if it got delayed a bit by 808s. a super-grandiose crazy mess of an album.

Lupe is rapping like no-one's business, and not just for the sake of rapping. There's all kinds of different sorts of styles being exhibited here.

The music is more of a mixed bag. But I think it "fits" Lupe and his style/persona. Perhaps in a way more aggressively than his earlier material.

i got no doubt lupe is spitting. but i really don't fuck with lush production. shit doesn't get me in the mood to listen to raw spit. and that's not to say it can't be good. i'm just not a fan of the style for rap, or pretty much any music when i think about it. i hate listening to music and thinking 'now which brand is going to use this in their promo?"

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

Outside of maybe 3 or 4 songs, BEAT and Rhymes together...

the production has too much gloss for me.

I like sheen and shiny new toy production in doses
and with the right music being created but not a lot hiphop shit.

That's why Mural is my favorite song on the album.
It has the right sonic canvas for Lupe to paint his raw rappity raps on.


Even though I like what the music is doing on some songs,
it is too bright.
That shiny new toy sound is too plastic for me.


At the same time tho... I really can't stand Lupe's voice.
So all in all, Lupe Fisaco probably just ain't the artist for me
when I want to listen to hiphop.

it sounds amazing at the end of that song

it's godawful.

the saxophone is possibly the most abused instrument and it's shit like that that does it.

The sax SUCKS. I hate the sound of it.
I tell people that and people think I'm crazy.

.

not everyone loves hip-hop.

i do, though.

>It feels massively overproduced to me.

agree 100%.


>musically, it's the kind of album someone who doesn't like
>hip-hop would claim to be elevating the art form.


I feel like it's the kind of album the J Cole, Logic,
millennial hiphop fans think is pushing the art towards a new space,
taking chances where no other hiphop artist is going.

I guess the non hiphop fan claiming what you said might also happen
in the universe of millennial hiphop fan that loves that sheen.

>musically, it's the kind of album someone who doesn't like
>hip-hop would claim to be elevating the art form.
>
>there's even a motherfucking saxophone solo.
>
>maybe it will click with me after a few more listens.

If its okay for you to say that people who don't
like hip hop would claim this album to be elevating the art
form, then I have the right to say that people who complain
about saxophone solos aren't the right people who talk about
what is elevating hip-hop musically, or not.

The saxophone solo is fine, and you know it.



----------------------------



O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

it works perfectly for it

i doubt i would have been up for any such solo at all, but that sax is particularly cheesy. it's goddamn awful.

i appreciate that you disagree and that's fine.

It sounds really, really, good. And it the guy
rapping over it sound really, really good.


That's all there is to it.


----------------------------



O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

FOH!

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

.

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

throughout the album, there's sample chopping, there's drum breaks, theres vocal scratches.

the idea that when you have live instruments, changes in chord progression, basically anything 'more' than 1-2 repeating loops for 4 minutes straight makes it 'over produced' or 'not hip hop' is insane to me

i don't think "music > hip hop"
i do think i would rather listen to something 'more' musically than something simple that repeats itself over and over

i say this as someone who worshipped dj premier from the time i was about 16
but if i try to listen to primo instrumentals nowadays, i have to skip forward after about 70 seconds, because i know i've heard the entire thing and there is nothing more to it, there's nothing to wait for, there's nothing to look forward to
i'm glad there are increasingly more albums that sound like this

>the idea that when you have live instruments, changes in chord
>progression, basically anything 'more' than 1-2 repeating
>loops for 4 minutes straight makes it 'over produced' or 'not
>hip hop' is insane to me

If it was someone else, we'd be calling it "courageous."

Because its Lupe, its "over produced."

That's how bad his relationship is with the art house
community.

so if you want to summarize how i feel based on my statements perhaps you should ask for clarification first because you clearly don't know what the fuck you're talking about when it comes to my criticisms.

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

>throughout the album, there's sample chopping, there's drum
>breaks, theres vocal scratches.
>
>the idea that when you have live instruments, changes in chord
>progression, basically anything 'more' than 1-2 repeating
>loops for 4 minutes straight makes it 'over produced' or 'not
>hip hop' is insane to me

not what i said. my critique is that it's too fucking clean. clean being the imperative word. its a sound aesthetic which just doesn't sit well in my ears while someone's trying to spit for their life.

>i don't think "music > hip hop"
>i do think i would rather listen to something 'more' musically
>than something simple that repeats itself over and over

fuck people that say this. fuck em fuck em fuck em

it's the most backhanded bullshit out there. i fucking can't stand it. because guess what happens when you get a live player on a hip-hop track... they play the same shit that repeats over and over, except a couple flourishes that say 'hey i'm really playing this guys, not a sample!!'

but even more the 'more musical' you're referring to is denying the primary instrument of the song which should always be the focus - the lyrics. it's not just fucking talking. when cats is spitting true, they are doing so with musicality which is meant to be the focus. before the content even. that's why i say i'm so tired of motherfuckers rocking the same flows. it's the equivlent to everyone using the same chords. shit's boring.

but now we get lupe who at least pushes those flows with a technicality that warrants attention but it's all dressed up with this shiny happy people shit that makes it feel like it's more than it needs to be. you like that part as music, to me it's just distraction.

>i say this as someone who worshipped dj premier from the time
>i was about 16
>but if i try to listen to primo instrumentals nowadays, i have
>to skip forward after about 70 seconds, because i know i've
>heard the entire thing and there is nothing more to it,
>there's nothing to wait for, there's nothing to look forward
>to

which is exactly why primo don't release instrumental albums but instead works with those artists that fit perfectly into the foundation he lays to elevate them shits to fucking hip-hop classics. so apparently it's not the primo beats that bore you, it's rapping in general which is i guess why you go to the instrumentals rather than the vocal versions.

>i'm glad there are increasingly more albums that sound like
>this

i wish they would stop. at least not for rapper albums. producers want to go all out and get rappers as features fine, because in those cases the production is the spotlight. but i want rappers going in on shit that compliments them not desparately tries to outshine them.


█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

I don't agree though that the lyrics should be the focus though-narrowing down mcing to lyrics has always been something I take offense at; shit, when I first heard stuff like LL and Run DMC, I barely understood the lyrics but I still thought the rapping sounded cool; flow and delivery matters and are also *musical* qualities (lyrics are not unless you want to get extra-nerdy with it)...

>I don't agree though that the lyrics should be the focus
>though-narrowing down mcing to lyrics has always been
>something I take offense at; shit, when I first heard stuff
>like LL and Run DMC, I barely understood the lyrics but I
>still thought the rapping sounded cool; flow and delivery
>matters and are also *musical* qualities (lyrics are not
>unless you want to get extra-nerdy with it)...

I started with lyrics but shifted to flow mid thread. Flow was where my intentions were, which is why I said they come before the content even.

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

>not what i said. my critique is that it's too fucking clean.
>clean being the imperative word. its a sound aesthetic which
>just doesn't sit well in my ears while someone's trying to
>spit for their life.

about other rap albums sounding too clean, too glossy - i don't think this one does at all...i think most of the production complements him perfectly

>fuck people that say this. fuck em fuck em fuck em >we still cool]
>
>it's the most backhanded bullshit out there. i fucking can't
>stand it. because guess what happens when you get a live
>player on a hip-hop track... they play the same shit that
>repeats over and over, except a couple flourishes that say
>'hey i'm really playing this guys, not a sample!!'

Lol - I didn't say it's superior, or takes some massive amount of musical talent - personally, i love just the sound of samples and programmed stuff with live instruments together, and yes i realize they play the same stuff repeatedly, but it gives it some more life and more variety to me.

>but even more the 'more musical' you're referring to is
>denying the primary instrument of the song which should always
>be the focus - the lyrics. it's not just fucking talking. when
>cats is spitting true, they are doing so with musicality which
>is meant to be the focus. before the content even. that's why
>i say i'm so tired of motherfuckers rocking the same flows.
>it's the equivlent to everyone using the same chords. shit's
>boring.
>
>but now we get lupe who at least pushes those flows with a
>technicality that warrants attention but it's all dressed up
>with this shiny happy people shit that makes it feel like it's
>more than it needs to be. you like that part as music, to me
>it's just distraction.

whose to say the lyrics need to be the 'primary focus'? to me, the full package, crafting a cohesive song, the whole being greater than the sum of its parts - that is the focus - not just one element (lyrics). if you think the production on stuff like TRON/deliver/chopper/etc is "shiny happy people shit" i dunno what to tell you, those beats are hard as fuck to me. i guess i listen to rap in sort of a double edged sword way - i mostly want to listen to rappers that are saying something and rapping amazing, but first and foremost want it to sound great even if i'm not paying attention to what they're saying at all

>so apparently it's not the primo beats that
>bore you, it's rapping in general which is i guess why you go
>to the instrumentals rather than the vocal versions.

nope, i can name plenty of rappers i still enjoy listening to who could hold my attention for 4 minutes over a primo beat, but Primo mostly doesnt work with any of them. (also, i thought I read they are releasing PRhyme instrumentals?)

>i wish they would stop. at least not for rapper albums.
>producers want to go all out and get rappers as features fine,
>because in those cases the production is the spotlight. but i
>want rappers going in on shit that compliments them not
>desparately tries to outshine them.

Agree to disagree - i don't feel like the production on this album is the spotlight at all, it's just really good (IMO)

nail on the head, as always.

I haven't bumped Lupe since F&L and his music I haven't play since that got released. This album is real refreshing and for me personally his interviews is what turned me off from listening to him. It always seems like he tries hard to get people to hate him. Glad this album came out

Good to see my dude Buk get some shine. Fam-Lay too. Lupe put together a great LP IMO. The bassline that comes in and out on "Body of Work", love it! It's gonna be hard to top this album. Looking forward to see what others will release since the bar is being raised over the past few months. Lu did the damn thing. Salute!

I mean it's a quality track, but again it's 9min longs and "sore thumb" in the middle of the album.

I literally edited everyone out except Lupe at the end.

I love that song. One of my favorites on the album. Lu doesn't even have my favorite verse so even if I edited it down it wouldn't be just his verse I'm keeping. And you gotta remember that 8 of the 12 songs are 5+ mins so the songs on this album are long period.

during a long move. there are a couple of other great verses in it as well and it's a good foil to the narrative or direction of the album.

plus that beat is nasty AF

My bad my post crashed and burned...

I think it's an amazing album...

It is a hell of a lot to digest though and even though I was around for probably 90% of it's creation and know the basic underlying themes I am still "getting" shit after multiple listens..

I think it's immediately Grammy worthy and kind of what a Grammy Nominated Rap album should be..

>My bad my post crashed and burned...
>
>I think it's an amazing album...
>
>It is a hell of a lot to digest though and even though I was
>around for probably 90% of it's creation and know the basic
>underlying themes I am still "getting" shit after multiple
>listens..
>

8 of the 12 songs are 5+ mins. Dude is rapping his ass off

>I think it's immediately Grammy worthy and kind of what a
>Grammy Nominated Rap album should be..
>
>

It better be nominated

Lupe has 2 Grammys.. and has been active in the Chi Chapter for years.. so yea.. probably

>8 of the 12 songs are 5+ mins. Dude is rapping his ass off
>

that's a problem for me. it's too much, even though I think "Mural" is the best song i've heard in a while, i don't need songs to be 5min long. I've noticed even when I'm reading fiction I prefer short story collections over novels now. It's a bout me, not Lupe's craft and ability, but eight at 5 minutes is overkill IMO

>>I think it's immediately Grammy worthy and kind of what a
>>Grammy Nominated Rap album should be..
>>
>
>It better be nominated
>
it won't. Came too early

>but eight at 5 minutes is overkill IMO

but for some reason it doesn't bother me on this record, whereas it totally bugged me on 20/20 vol.1 - i was like, DAMN can i get single-edits of all these tracks?
Maybe because on that record it just seemed extra. On this record he's actually using those minutes.

>Maybe because on that record it just seemed extra. On this
>record he's actually using those minutes.


Is he really though? Some times I feel like the guy is rhyming
just to rhyme
because he can come up with the right word
configurations to sound dope.
I think he can write his verses in a more concise manner.
But, he chooses not to because he's in love w/ sound of own voice.

He's a rapper that could use an editor.

>He's a rapper that could use an editor.

some people would also say he's "a rapper's rapper"
but i get your point.

>My bad my post crashed and burned...

Wasn't your fault.

>It is a hell of a lot to digest though and even though I was
>around for probably 90% of it's creation and know the basic
>underlying themes I am still "getting" shit after multiple
>listens..

Yeah, I need to give it even more listens to further get it. But even on a fairly "surface" level, I'm enjoying the lyrics a hell of a lot.

>I think it's immediately Grammy worthy and kind of what a
>Grammy Nominated Rap album should be..

Never been into what goes into the whole process to make this happen, but do you think that Atlantic pretty much disavowing it is going to hurt it from getting nominated down the line.

.

first few tracks this morning, i was thinking that this ish too good to not get a nomination. strange because i never think about that type of ish when listening to new music, nor do i usually care.

but man he was spitting on those 4-5 tracks i've heard.

It's a good album, and its density will give it a lot of replay value. I think it's easily his best production since The Cool. The lyrics are so tough to keep up with though, just because of how dense it is. There were times where I'd listen to a song multiple times in a row and still have no idea what the song was about. Reading the lyrics on paper (more specifically, on Rap Genius) made them a lot easier to digest. As the Pitchfork review said, "his way with language has always felt painterly rather than writerly, more concerned with how one word shades the next than with literal coherence." That's a perfect way to describe it. I do wish there were more easy to digest songs; while I can respect that writing style, I think the straightforwardness of songs like He Say She Say and Hip Hop Saved My Life were strong spots because he was still able to add subtleties like inflection instead of making them overly complicated.

I spent all night falling in the rabbit hole of disambiguation threads about the album's theme, how it works when played backwards, gems like the hook of Adoration of Magi, etc. Shit is Annotation Rap, for real.

Shit's a dope album, and I plan to buy it because it's quality and because I respect the effort that went into it. Not sure how much I'll be listening to it though beacuse it's a pretty intense listen - despite his best production in nearly a decade, it's not a casual listen at all. I feel like I need to be doing absolutely nothing while listening to truly appreciate it.

I don't agree with the reviewers issue with the beats though. How are any of these joints "vaguely rock-derived backing".

This is Lu's best production work imo since the FNL leak which is his best album to me..

Definitely some of the best production I've ever heard him over.

"His way with language has always felt painterly rather than writerly, more concerned with how one word shades the next than with literal coherence"

-------->

Q: The album cover is a painting of yours.
A: I paint a lot -- probably too much. I paint more than I write raps. It's the same creative thing for me. I started painting two years ago, and I gave myself 10 years to really get good. I'll sit and paint for 11 hours and get lost in it, the technique of it, trying to execute it clean, colors and palettes, etc. Van Gogh said he wasn't happy unless he was painting, and I'm starting to realize that's becoming true for me. If I'm not in a creative mode and I'm dealing with the outside world, I'm not really happy.

I ended up getting there late because I was slow moving listening to lyrics.

There is a LOT to digest here

Love it

Quantum leaps forward musically, scientifically, in the
literary sphere, etc are all made when people just...do it.

There's a reason Basquiat's art work is selling for tens
of millions of dollars NOW. He had contemporaries more popular,
with more "digestible" work. He didn't care.

Because artists are supposed to make you feel uncomfortable.
Not BAD, but uncomfortable...by pushing buttons in a way you're
not used to.

That's the problem, though: Hip-Hop lyricism (arguably Hip-Hop
music as a whole) hasn't been an ART for a long, long, long,
time. And very few "artists" have been on a big stage, making anything of NOTE.

This wasn't always true. Public Enemy was taking HUGE risks
on EVERY album. Sonically. Lyrically. Same with BDP. Same
with many, many ARTISTS. And a lot of it sold really well
at one time.

But then celebrating black death happened. And it was put over
some catchy beats. And rich kids (of all races, mind you)
fetishized it. And then we were stuck with hip-hop being
black death or bad behavior music which is mostly is now.

And I like a lot of it. I like music made for summer break ups
and fall back-to-school house parties. Its all relevant. It
all sounds good.


But Hip-Hop NEEDED THIS ALBUM NOW.


As in, RIGHT NOW.

This is a big, popular artist, who has enough money to
buy 5 Bentleys. And he wrote the fucking lyrics he wanted
to write, how he wrote them....AND the music is beautiful,
AND it sounds nice, AND it feels refreshing.

Its a masterpiece.

Maybe the most important album...most IMPORTANT album,
in many, many, many years.



>It's a good album, and its density will give it a lot of
>replay value. I think it's easily his best production since
>The Cool. The lyrics are so tough to keep up with though, just
>because of how dense it is. There were times where I'd listen
>to a song multiple times in a row and still have no idea what
>the song was about. Reading the lyrics on paper (more
>specifically, on Rap Genius) made them a lot easier to digest.
>As the Pitchfork review said, "his way with language has
>always felt painterly rather than writerly, more concerned
>with how one word shades the next than with literal
>coherence." That's a perfect way to describe it. I do wish
>there were more easy to digest songs; while I can respect that
>writing style, I think the straightforwardness of songs like
>He Say She Say and Hip Hop Saved My Life were strong spots
>because he was still able to add subtleties like inflection
>instead of making them overly complicated.
>
>I spent all night falling in the rabbit hole of disambiguation
>threads about the album's theme, how it works when played
>backwards, gems like the hook of Adoration of Magi, etc. Shit
>is Annotation Rap, for real.
>
>Shit's a dope album, and I plan to buy it because it's quality
>and because I respect the effort that went into it. Not sure
>how much I'll be listening to it though beacuse it's a pretty
>intense listen - despite his best production in nearly a
>decade, it's not a casual listen at all. I feel like I need to
>be doing absolutely nothing while listening to truly
>appreciate it.


----------------------------



O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

>There's a reason Basquiat's art work is selling for tens
>of millions of dollars NOW. He had contemporaries more
>popular, with more "digestible" work. He didn't care.

but Basquiat was WILDLY popular while he was a working artist.
his work may hold more value now, but thats going to happen with anyone after they die (supply and demand)
and in today's dollars, the money he was making then is probably comparable

The issue with post-"The Cool" Lupe Fiasco is that he intentionally goes over his audience's head. He seemed to take pride in people not understanding him. And Lupe didn't go over heads in the "I'm a dope rapper, I'm more clever than you" way, but in a "I'm smarter/more well read than you" way. There's a big difference between "I have this vision and I don't care if you get it, because one day other people will," and "I'm making this complex SO you don't get it." For a while, I associated Lupe with the latter.

All that made me wonder who Lupe was making his music for. Was he making his music to spread a message to people who need to hear it, to speak on *behalf* of people who don't have a voice? Or was his music for the people who were just going to be impressed that he's complex and watches the news?

I don't think it's as simple as fetishizing black death, or respecting the art of crafting lyrics. Because I thought Food & Liquor and The Cool both had purpose, artistically and inspirationally in terms of uplifting people, and while he did have some detractors around then, I think a lot of people disliked him after that. And it's not like people haven't been praised for crafting lyrics.

I'm not saying all this to focus on the old Lupe, because I like this new album. Moreso trying to articulate why the density of his lyrics means one thing now vs. what it meant (to me) before.

>The issue with post-"The Cool" Lupe Fiasco is that he
>intentionally goes over his audience's head. He seemed to take
>pride in people not understanding him. And Lupe didn't go over
>heads in the "I'm a dope rapper, I'm more clever than you"
>way, but in a "I'm smarter/more well read than you" way.
>There's a big difference between "I have this vision and I
>don't care if you get it, because one day other people will,"
>and "I'm making this complex SO you don't get it." For a
>while, I associated Lupe with the latter.

Because no self-assured intelligent man interprets Lupe that
way.

None.

I interpret him as a talented person with strong opinions who
is irritated by dumb people who don't read and think carefully.

That makes him similar to, literally, every single really bright
person I know. I'm talking McCarthur geniuses and people who
almost won the Nobel Prize, and I'm being serious.

The only difference between Lupe and the others I know is that
Lupe is more public about it, because he's a public figure.

One of the people I'm referring to is a mathematician who is
a rockstar, but doesn't require a general audience the way Lupe
does, and so doesn't have to be constantly irritated by dumb
people who don't listen...in a very public way. He is,
however, thousands of times as arrogant and dismissive (despite
being a nice guy) as Lupe.

Also -- Lupe Fiasco is black.

Its always harder to be smart and black, especially in
non-traditional ways (Lupe isn't only "hood" smart. He
actually is smart, in a white wonky nerd kind of way).

For example, he was legitimately talking about drones, openly,
well before Atlantic Monthly or New Yorker were. And He got
slammed as "arrogant" for it. He knew about it because he
reads and understands more than most wonky white nerds.

Another example is him being *years* ahead of everyone on the
Obama skepticism. While everyone else was cheering, he was
rightfully looking at dude with caution (whether you like
POTUS or not overall, you have to admit that Lupe was right
about some of the contradictions).

When you think like Lupe, Black people call you "cocky."

And white people REALLY call you "cocky," because fundamentally,
white people are irritated by intelligent black people.

Truth is, Lupe is like 1/400th as off-putting or arrogant as
his talented white counterparts. We just let white boys get
away with it.


----------------------------



O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

Argue back and forth about the music all you'd like, but everyone should chill with personal extrapolations about the posters.

And I'm right.

----------------------------



O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

because they feel a certain way about an artist
that is personal
you specifically said that he was NOT a self-assured intelligent man (which i can assure you is bullshit) because of his opinion
your posts are VERY intelligent - you don't need to attack people

even in a multi-paragraph diatribe where you go deeper into the psychology of this artist than anyone else on this board is even capable of, you still can't resist sliding a little personal dig in there, or a backhand at "the lesson".

just let that shit go man.

This post is a petri-dish.

This is my test to see if people in that visit this forum can have intelligent music-based conversation on what's already somewhat of a polarizing hip-hop album.

I've already seen it be possible for a soul album with that the 600-response "Black Messiah" post.

This post is about about a new album by an artist that people here have had very strong opinions about for close to 10 years.

So again, arguing about the music and the lyrics is okay. But no personal digs either way. That include angry responses to responses.

Let's see if everyone can do this.

both replies were fine

a lil spice isn't bad. you did right though in the other post

But I don't think those points make mine any less valid. Like I said, a lot of people fucked with Lupe on F&L and The Cool. So what, everyone who jumped ship after that suddenly became insecure people who don't think critically? Even die-hard fans of his (like myself) left.

BTW, it's not like Lupe NEVER got props after The Cool. He still got props for songs like Double Burger With Cheese, All Black Everything and Jonylah Forever. People often said, concerning those songs, "this is the Lupe I miss." So it's not like everyone has always hated Lupe, and it's not like Lupe's music wasn't smart before.

Like I said, that's why I'm curious about who his music was for after that. He has a right to make whatever kind of music he wants, but I was curious to who he was speaking to with it.

The person who wrote it knows it was a better album by
40 miles.

The entire staff knows that.

They gave the black death album a higher rating, though.

That is why this album by Lupe is so important. We needed
this record now.

----------------------------



O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

i'm going to listen to it for a while before charging in with a full opinion.
it's a very dense album and deserves time spent to be digested and understood.

I listened to that for 50min straight Sunday night after a funeral...

It is a rap clinic. It's sublime, erudite, clever and full of joy. Lupe had one of those moments when an artist no matter if rapper, painter, musician, filmmaker, sculptor, fiction writer, or theorist is able to swallow the whole dame world and give it back to us from their unique perspective as a human on earth.

it's beautiful and a brilliant challenging way to start an album.

if I'm coming off all "OMG" it because it's one of those moments that hit me very viscerally. It felt like when I heard Kendrick and Gunplay's "Cartoon & Cereal", Danny Browns "Die Like a Rockstar" and "XXX", Ab Soul's "Book of Soul", or Gibbs and Alley Boy's "Robe Me a Nigga". It's just a guttural feeling I don't get as much nowadays, for as much as I love rap.

Lupe has some AMAZING runs in those 8min. Be it cause of content, the multies, the 4/5 flows he plays with, the images he jumps in and out of, or the ridiculoid word play.

I love that shit

no opinion on the rest of the album right now other then, it's too long, and some of the production i don't fuck with

So, loose tracks that dropped between F&L2 and Tetsuo
including tracks that didn't make the cut for this record
am i missing anything?

Old School Love
Snitches
Snitches 2
Mission
Next To It
Pu$$y
Haile Selassie
Lillies

*not counting Drizzy's Law & Crack since they haven't actually been released in any capacity

Thot97?

Jonylah Forever

Animal Pharm too (wack beat, but dope lyrically)

Also, only one verse, but his verse on "Poor Decisions," from the Maybach Music compilation, was crazy.

Like I said -- he's a quantum leap forward.

I made these into a mixtape called "Lost In The Alantic"

I used this dope cover that I found on kanyetothe: http://i.minus.com/ihlq8412QcyV3.png

Haile Selassie (Feat. Nikki Jean)
Next To It (Feat. Ty Dolla Sign)
Snitches (30s) (Feat. Ty Dolla Sign)
Animal Pharm
Light Blue
Pound Of Flesh
Dope Francis
Thorns & Horns (Feat. Ab-Soul)
Lillies (Feat. Sirah)
SLR 2
SLR 3
Untittled (over the Common beat)
Snitches 2
Peace Of Paper Cup Of Jayzus
DopeBoyzAtAllStarWeekend (Feat. Gizzle)
Piru Blues
Thot97
Pu$$y (Feat. Billy Blue)
Jonylah Forever
Mazingler (Feat. PJ)
Old School Love (Feat. Ed Sherran)
Mission
Mission Remix (Feat. Common & Jennifer Hudson)

(!)

http://www15.zippyshare.com/v/7d4olZTr/file.html

Note: Mission Remix isn't in the file, no idea why.

It's very dense and requires your attention. I can't play it much during the day at work because I can't write with it. Hell I can't really read stuff with it on because I'm trying to dissect the lyrics so much.

Deliver is great. Madonna is super dope.

I can't say it enough, that double dragon reference on Magi is everything for me. Actually all of the video game references. I think that song is my favorite joint. I thought it was Little Death because I love that beat but Magi is damn near perfect to me. Just beautiful.

No scratches is my least favorite song. It's not bad but it can't hang with the other songs and the production isn't what I love. Some good lines though.

Overall it's better (so far) than any of his albums not named Food and Liquor.

"the adoration of the magi hook is bonkers"

ready to die, just a baby (biggie album cover)
tears under your eyes, just a baby (lil wayne carter 3 album cover)
keep your head up in the sky, just a baby (drake nothing was the same album cover)
chasing money never mind, you just a baby (nirvana album cover)

But less polarizing.

The one thing everyone agrees on, with 'Jest' and with
'Tetsuo' is that the author is so painfully gifted at
their craft that the joy of seeing it in actions is in
itself a joy. There are sets of 5 pages in 'Jest' where
DFW simply zones out and snaps, even though it takes you
12 pages to figure out what's going on. And they are worth
reading.

Lupe legitimately makes some quantum leaps forward lyrically
on this album.

I don't know the last time I heard a hip-hop record and thought:

"Gee, this is a huge step forward."

The key Lupe trait is that he (contrary to what
people tend to think) really understands the street aesthetic
(he actually grew up in a worse hood than 99.9999% of cocaine
and gun rappers), understands pop culture, understands
the aesthetic of talk shit and brag, understands that Nas
"street poet" shit....but has a literary, and irony, and
tragedy tone to his spit that no other rapper has.

Its way, way, way ahead of its time.

He doesn't try to merge these understandings, but somehow his
*grasp* of them really emerges.

And its only "snobby" if you dislike smart black people, which
a lot of you guys do, unfortunately.

Hip-Hop needs to move into the future. The artform hasn't
actually grown in a long time lyrically...probably not since
the multi-syllable takeover, which wasn't really a content
innovation (but a delivery innovation, and a good one).

Its a masterpeice.

thank you.

make up for not actually listening to it. It's a good album. You have nothing to fear.

This is the last time I'm going to say this.

No message

Hoping to keep this post on the rails, so everyone should chill with the back and forth sniping. Even responses to responses.

http://instagram.com/p/yM_YGlsKTm

and i really like your analysis in this post and in the one above where you talked about somewhere along the lines hiphop becoming about black death.

the album is incredible.

Y'all gonna make me write an actual review of this
album.

.

dope shit!

Maaaaan, dudes one HELL of a writer

I really wanted to just listen to the album as is, but it's a record that truly gets better with the lyrics in front of you as you're listening

he stopped trying to make hits but that's also it's limitation in a way. There aren't any songs on here that I'd listen to more than Next To. Still, this is a step in the right direction for him.

Joe Budden Whatever It Takes (original version with the 'tough luv' beat), or whatever you consider the greatest 'blacking out for one long ass verse" songs to be

Ooooh weeee he blacked out on that. I forgot all about that joint.

Poet Laureate II is a beautiful display of lyrical ability. This is right there but probably better due to Lu's delivery and the "rain/reign" section.

Poet Laureate II is probably the last Canibus song I dig

It's a journey from childhood: (T.R.O.N. through Madonna) to death: (Blur My Hands) everything in between and ends with a Mural, that happens after death. It's already dope but it comes off more cohesive played backwards.

"From the floating death, to the fire death, to a flower outside my grave

It pulls off a range of tricks. None of it sounds
pretentious. None of it sounds forced. It SOUNDS
good musically. And it sounds like he had fun making
it.

----------------------------



O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

along with the lyrics on RapGenius.

fuck this is even better backwards.

I'll have to listen more thoroughly in chronological order

I've rocked w/ Lu since the FNF mixtapes, and glad to see a lot of folks back on the bandwagon, so to speak. I know that I WILL like this ... I just haven't been able to get that deep into it. The only times I've had the chance to listen is during metro rides and during work, which isn't the ideal scenario for me to process this. I'll follow up once I have a better grasp.

Mural is just incredible. Not just a dope song, or just a rap clynic, and all of that...

but also a ballsy way to kick off the album. I hit minute 6 and said to myself "I can't beleive he kicked it off like this"

Crazy dope, but I'm a sucker for risks on the opening track. (I always thought kicking off TTP with Star was gutsy...but back to topic)

I haven't spent enough time with this yet. Not only is it dense, but I'm just behind on music in general. Hell I just copped Phryme.

But as far as needing a lyric sheet or rap genius...

Yes it is dense, but I hope he isn't unfairly critiqued for that. I mean artists like Doom, Billy Woods, etc...they get love for their dense lyrics.

And rightfully so. As should Lupe in my opinion.

I mean, my favorite track of his all time might be Game or whatever its called (spacing the exact name) from the Cool.

And the thing I've always loved about that track is it is dense yet open to interpretation. At face value it's a dope listen. Dig deeper if you want, and find the meaning that makes sense to you.

Few can pull that off if you ask me.

So the idea that this whole album is getting dissected in a similar manner has me hyped to spend more time with it.

Again, I'm glad this album is getting love. A reminer though that even if you didn't feel his last 2 albums, his mixtapes BEEN fire. Enemy of the State came on the other day and...whew.

Props to everyone in here for the great posts too.

There's not a single track that I was tempted to skip on first listen (even my favorite albums typically have some tracks that I just don't feel right away)

Everyday its a different song in my head

The hooks are top notch

The lyrics are crazy

Production is gorgeous

Masterpiece on every level

I'm going to write one, post it here first

>
>I'm going to write one, post it here first
>
>

Do it!

This thread gives me a great start before I jump into this album. I bought it immediately. But I haven't heard ANY songs from it..I've been holding onto it like a hadoken..trying to make sure I have the time to dig into it like it deserves. I expect that to start sometime over this weekend. And I have no problem giving it some listens. I'll probably find the lyrics somewhere too just me make sure after the first couple run-throughs. I'm excited...

And props for give The Lesson the first look at it.

It is better than the cool
It is on the same level as his first album (maybe better but hey, I've only heard this once)
It absolutely shits on his last two projects

As many has said, "Mural" is some next level rap clinic type shit, but the rest of this album is as well to be honest. It's so dope

Thank you Lupe

driving home today.

gonna try listening to it with the tracklist reversed as suggested above. Lupe dropped a dope ass album, his last one was OK but it didn't get the repeat spins i'm giving this one.

This is an album of the year contender due to the entire package.

Do you want bars? He's got those.
Do you want beats that sound good in the whip? Those are there as well.
Do you love features that make sense? This album has those as well.

My initial criticisms are valid (except for tracks 13, 14, and 15) but this projects flows together so seamlessly that the good outweighs anything else. This feels like an album Lupe wanted to make versus Lasers.

This coming of age story is a perfect way to start off the year. This album is a commentary on black life in America and it just works. We will see how this album holds up through December.

Happy Sunday, y'all.

Sharing only because some of you asked.

I've been exchanging with multiple people about publishing
this somewhere bigger, but just ended up saying "fuck it" and put
it up on Medium, somewhere for everyone to read openly because
its not that big a deal.

Btw, I was asked to make it extensive and thorough...and I
certainly delivered there. LOL. Its more in the NY Review of
Books style of review, where the reviewer reviews the book +
uses it to talk about a lot of the issues the book raises, as
much as the book itself)

In any case, yeah, I really like this record. Frustrating to
review because there are so many examples to use and things
to cover, and also because I'll be discovering new shit about
it for some time.


Below: O_E long ass review (link and pasted below):


https://medium.com/@QuantumJenkins/hip-hops-infinite-jest-a-review-of-lupe-fiascos-tetsuo-and-youth-62b86cf1f40d



Hip Hop’s Infinite Jest: A Review of Lupe Fiasco’s Tetsuo and Youth



by Orbit_Established


David Foster Wallace’s Kenyon College commencement address (2005), later published as 'This is Water', was a cult favorite well before his death by suicide in 2008. It once read as a powerful (or lame, depending on how cynical you were) vaccine against the quarter life crisis aimed at the caps and gowns of graduating Millennials. Read it today, and it’s a posthumous case study in a young person struggling with being “inside of one’s own head,” temporarily staving off the demons that would be Wallace’s eventual undoing. 

This is the only David Foster Wallace we ever knew. His work was loved and hated for it. He was accused of pretension, lauded for genius and diagnosed with madness, sometimes by the same person. And the trips he took us on through his many thoughts — encoded in flashes of electric current and reading like a Federer vs. Nadal duel — are how he earned at least a good paycheck, and more precisely, status as a literary almost-legend.

Wallace’s most well known work, the novel Infinite Jest, is a titanic science fiction/tragi-comedy/satire that his critics and supporters are still unraveling. Even if we don’t know what it is about, we are sure about what it is: a treatise on many things, by a gifted writer, laughing (and maybe crying) at just about everything, serving the many masters inside his own head. 

By “inside of his own head,” we are referring to the non-technical and widely (probably overly) used descriptor for a state of mind, personality, or pathology affecting many young creative people. Its the act of fighting our thoughts with other thoughts, with a zero-sum or worse result: our productivity diminishes, our relationships fall apart, our happiness suffers. It’s replaced “writer’s block” as the most feared affliction of the artist (and can cause “writer’s block.”). It ruins careers and lives, and the world offers few reliable remedies.

Major label hip-hop is now almost entirely a producer of comfort music, a space not built with the ramps and rails in place to accommodate the “inside your head” disability. This is probably for the better, as making that faint neurotic flavor sound good is difficult. 

While I want to say records like Kanye West’s My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy (2010) are an exception, many would agree that the quirks that makes it legendary aren’t in what Kanye says (which is rather ordinary) but in the music its layered over (which is unearthly). Great mental illness hip-hop records such as Redman’s Dare Iz a Darkside (1994) fall to the left of merely being inside of one’s head, and into the deep depression and addiction side of the spectrum. 

It’s now been a full decade since Lupe Fiasco’s entry into the hip-hop world, and there are few artists with a more tempestuous relationship with its citizenry. His conflicts stand out because something feels unnatural about them: he doesn’t partake in rap beefs. He doesn’t rely on reality television drama to sell records. Almost no one, including his harshest critics, can deny his gifts.
Not the typical recipe for an artist with an up-and-down relationship with fans, and mostly down relationship with hip-hop’s critical establishment of late. So why has his name become so synonymous with trouble? Who or what is to blame?

Some of it might be the usual suspects — immaturity, a rise to fame faster than he was prepared for, unrealistic expectations, etc. Some of it, however, is specific to his generation: His first major appearance (on Kanye West’s Late Registration) occurred the same year Facebook was founded (2005), and he released his first album the year Twitter was born (2006). His trouble with navigating social media has been costly, as he’s been guilty of several moving violations (at least) playing out for everyone to see, hashtag by hashtag. And his responses usually fall somewhere between clumsy and miserable, which has transformed his reputation at the (the hip-hop fan) median from wunderkind and next big thing to pretentious, surly, jerk.
This is the Lupe Fiasco that entered the studio to record 2015's Tetsuo and Youth: bloody but unbowed, deep within in his own head, and in need of way to restore his direction as an artist and man.
While still a moderately big star by modern standards, his place in hip-hop history is very much up for grabs: would he, like Nas did with Stillmatic (2001), reclaim stardom and status near the top in the face of near extinction?

Would he go the way of Canibus and decompose into uncomfortable, inorganic obscurity?

Or would he go the way of M.F. Doom and embrace his inner conflict, allow it to throw a delightful pizza party in every corner of his mind, inviting us every once in a while (even if not often enough)?

The result is a product that does all of the above and none of them, delivering a record unlike anything I’ve heard in many years, at a time I would argue that the art form needs it most.

The intrigue begins with the album’s title. According to Lupe, it was a working title that he never got around to changing. “Tetsuo” is a reference to Tetsuo Shima from Akira, a teenager with psychic abilities. “Youth” is a reference to the album’s focus on children and childhood. Its clear that Tetsuo is most likely Lupe himself, armed with an elevated understanding of everything.
The album’s is structured as a temporal progression through seasons (summer, fall, winter, spring), each track supposedly themed around change or progression.

The album opens with a musical introduction titled “Summer,” followed by “Mural,” the albums opening song. Less than a week after its release, “Mural” has already achieved legendary status in the lore of internet lyric scholars, as Lupe somehow tricks the listener into feeling like a 9-minute song goes by too quickly.

And interestingly, “Mural” doesn’t have the feel of an artist “going in” on anyone or anything, but like someone reading a complicated machine learning algorithm for life, not in Java or Python, but in ordinary English. And yet it doesn’t feel like words at all, but individual lyrical pixels in a digital panorama.

Like a mural, the song cannot be analyzed using a reductionist lens. Also like a mural, however, there are corners that reveal different ideas, speak to different parts of the author and observer.
To pick one random line (and I mean it, as just about every one has a story attached):

I run the Gambit like I’m throwing cards,
from Popular Mechanics to overdosing hearts

Its an play on the idiom “Run the gamut,” but altered and layered with a comic book reference (Gambit from the X-Men), along with the formal definition of the word gambit (a chess move where a pawn is sacrificed). The “Popular Mechanics to overdosing hearts” speaks to Lupe’s topical range, with the “overdosing hearts” a reference back to both Gambit and gambit: the former referring to the fact that Gambit threw kinetically-energized playing cards at enemies, the latter that Lupe shares so much (from nerd speak to emotive lyrics) both sacrificially and strategically.

In a single line, Lupe offers a complete metaphor for his rap career, something he pulls off dozens of times throughout “Mural.” The song is Lupe’s hip-hop life (or actual life) playing out before our ears. The minute we realize this, we consider that the album’s true meaning is being told in reverse, with “Mural” representing Lupe’s death — literal or metaphorical. That it comes before the “Summer” musical introduction is revealing: Like we all look forward to summer, Lupe is looking forward to his death. This might mean the end of his contract with Atlantic Records. This might mean him leaving hip-hop for good. This might be a commentary on our individual fear of death in the broader sense. “Mural” is the defining song of the album (even if not the best) for a reason: despite its length, Lupe strikes the perfect chord of telling you a lot (and a whole lot), but not too much.

The second track, “Blur My Hands” further fuels speculation about the album’s intended order: the refrain and reference to Terry Fox speaks directly to being courageous in the face of pending death. The “Summer” to “Fall” transition ends with “Dots and Lines,” one of the albums catchiest songs, and about emancipation from his record contract, and most likely much more.

The tracks falling between the “Fall” and “Winter” interludes are the busiest conceptually, and is where the album asserts Lupe’s dominion over this project, and our ears and minds.

“Little Death,” is a tour through the depths of captivity, a whirlpool of political, spiritual and artistic commentaries.
Lupe shares his perspective on the act of creation:



"On the pallet of dark greys, concaves and spirals.
Kaleidoscope into an Eiffel.
It ripples then it tidals.
Vacillates, then it virals."



The album’s turning point, in my opinion, comes at the end of the “Fall” to “Winter” transition, in “No Scratches,” perhaps the defining emotional experience of the album, and one of the more interesting takes on the nature of bitterness and conflict that I’ve heard in some time.

In it, Lupe divulges the ontogeny of hatred, dressed up in a romantic relationship (the dueling masculine and feminine voices that sing the refrain create a sonic ambiguity that fits perfectly), but applying to any soured relationship between people, ideas or institutions. He uses a life as a road race metaphor, with hatred presented as reckless driving:



"Mini-bar raided in the Indy car faded.
500 miles, its pretty far, aint it?
But it’s a pretty car, ain’t it?
Pretty hard painted.
But pretty darn dangerous…"




He closes with his fusion-take on the “don’t argue with fools…” and “either we live together or we die” idioms:



"…so I be James Dean.
So your wreck and my wreck, look like the same thing."



It is, in essence, a call for a truce between him and several communities — the black community, the hip-hop community, and his own thoughts — that he’s clashed with over the years. He’s had enough, and he’s willing to move on if we are.

The “Winter” to “Spring” transition provides music that is gentler on the ears, starting with the bouncy “Chopper,” a ratchet sounding song that still can’t help but be clever, all while appealing to our youthful sensibilities. The album then takes off on a progressively ethereal ascent, in sound and substance, through motherhood (“Madonna”) and eventual birth in “They Reminisce over New,” a reference to the film Tron, which was originally released in 1982, the year Lupe was born.

In the end, we are left with a sequence of songs, from “Summer” all the way back through “Spring,” encompassing the many stages of life and development: “Mural” the moment we reflect on it all and leave the earth, “No Scratches” when we finally become mature enough to let go of hate, “Chopper” when we’re governed by our adolescent urges, and “They Reminisce Over New” when we enter a new world, with new rules, unsure of how we arrived, and less sure about where to go.
And after this conclusion, where do we go? What are we to think?
Is Lupe telling us a tale about his birth or his death? Or about our birth or death?

Might this also be a commentary on how he thinks about his place in the art form? Perhaps now, no longer riddled with insecurity as an artist (or maybe just feeling good after making a great record), Lupe feels born again? Or so accomplished that he’s ready to leave?
Perhaps it is, as his critics would much prefer, “not that deep,” that Lupe (and his creative team) simply thought the published sequence sounded better, and that the theme was added after the songs were made. Were this true, it would actually make the project more impressive — that such order arose out of chaos is testament to excellent production and a lyricist agile enough for verses to fit into any context.

Or maybe the true meaning is elusive because Lupe wants us to figure it out on our own. 

This last one is most likely to be true, and the one I challenge all fans of the art form to consider. Hip-hop criticism doesn’t have an especially good recent relationship with introspection, and is ultra quick with the “pretentious” label trigger.

The truth is that we don’t know what Lupe intended. The challenge is in (a) accepting that and (b) trying to figure it out.
And this is ultimately why David Foster Wallace’s legacy is safer than Lupe Fiasco’s. We are okay with not understanding artists when they are novelists, and especially when they are white, male and deceased: any inability to grasp Infinite Jest’s multiple messages falls on us (successfully in many cases, as thousands have been shamed into dissecting it, to much joy and enlightenment).
Hip-hop is given no such benefit of the doubt.

Its one of the worst, and under-reported manifestations of hip-hop’s gentrification: black artists can be smart, but not in the way white kids are smart. Were the art critic gatekeepers fair and self assured, they’d not only admit that Lupe was more intelligent than they are, they would admit that “not getting it” is the fault of the reader, not the writer.

And we can finally ask these difficult questions about our culture because, on Tetsuo and Youth, a black man stops apologizing for being smarter than everyone else. And magically, the non-apology is spread over a wondrous musical landscape, sequenced well (forwards or backwards), and features some of the best wordplay we’ve ever heard on a hip-hop record.

If Good Kid M.A.A.D. City’s brilliance was in Kendrick Lamar making friends with every faction at every corner of the school cafeteria without compromising himself, then Tetsuo and Youth does almost the opposite: its Lupe eating in that same cafeteria, all alone, contently wearing a Bruce Leroy glow with the self esteem of a star quarterback surrounded by an entourage of only his own thoughts and ideas.

I don’t know the last time smart sounded so self-assured, so free and indifferent to how it’s heard. And the voodoo works, because we believe him.

Tetsuo and Youth is Lupe Fiasco climbing deep inside his own head, finding a wormhole, coasting comfortably through space time, back to where he started — as a syllabic savant and soothsayer — but ten years older, many more wiser, and with the child-like curiosity and hunger of his younger self.

It’s an album that could, and should, be transformative for an art form that has run up against recent evolutionary dead-ends. Whether it is or not depends on how courageous we are, a contingency that Lupe Fiasco has peacefully decided to be unconcerned with.
Tetsuo and Youth is Lupe telling us something that we’ll be better for trying to understand. And if we don’t, he’ll feel no two ways about it, like David Foster Wallace does to this day, chuckling infinitely in jest.



----------------------------



O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

I agree with most of it. Great job expanding on the Infinite Jest comparison, and great job of interpreting the album while summing up Lupe as an artist. Sincerely glad to see you actually discussing music instead of just trolling.

I don't agree with the "they would admit that “not getting it” is the fault of the reader, not the writer" idea. Because the artist/writer is the one with the medium, and he's the one who is addressing an audience with his work. The burden is on the writer for his audience to understand; the burden is on the teacher for his students to understand. Lupe is the one with the pen. I'm not saying that he has to adjust his art to make it legitimate art, because he has all of his freedoms/choices as an artist; but if he wants people to understand him, it's his job to make them understand. Lupe seems to sometimes have what Writer Steven Pinker refers to as "the curse of knowledge: a difficulty in imagining what it is like for someone else not to know something that you know." Here's an article he wrote about this: http://www.wsj.com/articles/the-cause-of-bad-writing-1411660188

Tetsuo & Youth does sound natural and free in a way that his last two albums didn't. He does sound focused on creating something great that he stands behind, and I'm satisfied. I bought the record. I think there's a lot of merit RE: black kids not being able to be smart like white kids, but I don't think that his last two albums being panned/ignored critically is a situation of critics being unfair and not self-assured. I think it's a matter of Lupe 1.) having that "curse of knowledge," 2.) the interpretation that Lupe is intentionally going over heads.

And if you were right RE: what you said about critics with Lupe, what's the reasoning for them not feeling that way now? Tetsuo & Youth is getting props across the board: 86 on Metacritic, great reviews from fans and everywhere I've seen. I think it's perfectly reasonable to believe that Lupe made a record this time that is much better and more sincere-sounding than his last two, and that critics and listeners alike are happy to see that.

OE is right. Lupe has no more fucks to give about lowering his output for digestibility of ears that aren't willing to push themselves. Not only that he has demassified his audience: aint no comfortable top 40 hits on this. This dude is taking us down through there. I appreciate him for it, forreal.

My issue with the review was the phrasing of "not getting it is the listener's fault," and making it seem like critics didn't like his last two albums because they're insecure. That makes it seem like Lupe's art is beyond critique (no one's is), and like media have an agenda to not take his music seriously (even though critics have praised this album).

Lupe's music has been smart since he first came out, and listeners *and* critics liked him then. Those built him a strong fan base based on being brilliant. But when his next two albums aren't as well received, it's their fault? I think that's bullshit and that it ignores/glosses over the fact that he made two albums that weren't as good, and that he wasn't as likable. Getting support based on his music being smart and then claiming "people hate his music because he's smart!" is dishonest.

I'm not asking Lupe to dumb it down for me or for anyone else. He should, and does, make the music he pleases. What I'm saying is if you aren't going to "dumb it down," and you're going to make complex/dense music, don't blame the listener for not getting it. If I walk into an American diner and speak Spanish to everyone there, it's definitely my right to speak Spanish, but I shouldn't be upset if they don't understand me. And critics praise T&Y more than Lasers/F&L2 because it's better.

>My issue with the review was the phrasing of "not getting it
>is the listener's fault," and making it seem like critics
>didn't like his last two albums because they're insecure.

That isn't what the review said.

If it seemed that way to you, its because you made it up.

The review didn't mention the last two albums at all. Like,
not once.

But I don't get what else you could be referring to. In that paragraph you say (paraphrasing slightly here) "were critics fair and self assured, and they would say that if the listener doesn't get it, that it's the listener's fault, not the writer's." And you say that there's an unwillingness to allow black artists to be smart.

If you aren't talking about the last two albums, then what are you talking about when you say what you said above? This album has been universally praised so far, so I don't get what you would be referring to besides his past two albums when you say something like that.

>But I don't get what else you could be referring to. In that
>paragraph you say (paraphrasing slightly here) "were critics
>fair and self assured, and they would say that if the listener
>doesn't get it, that it's the listener's fault, not the
>writer's." And you say that there's an unwillingness to allow
>black artists to be smart.

>If you aren't talking about the last two albums, then what are
>you talking about when you say what you said above? This album
>has been universally praised so far, so I don't get what you
>would be referring to besides his past two albums when you say
>something like that.

There are hundreds and thousands of ways for someone to like
an album, and still levy the "who he think he is" criticism.
That's been a general critique of Lupe, even when people have
liked his work.

So the point isn't about how many mics people give his records.

Is about the kinds of things that they say.

This is why I use the DFW analogy -- everyone, even people
who don't like Infinite Jest, are quick to point out how brilliant
*he* is. Even people who hate the book talk effusively about *his*
genius. His *smarts*, in many ways, have had a larger legacy than
his *work*.

Black rappers get the opposite treatment: even when we like them,
we say we like them because they sequenced an album well or worked
with producer X or because we liked their "sound.* Not
because of their cognitive range, or that they understand things
that we do not, sees the world in a way we wish we could.

And when we don't like their work, we are especially gun shy
with the praise.

Lupe's legacy as a rapper should have been cemented the
minute Jonylah Forever, a non-album song, was released. Its
one of the best songs, ever made, any genre. Ever. Its not
hyperbole. Its true. The timing, the prose, the imagery. And
then even using hip-hop lingo: the syllables, the "flow," etc.
All are the best.

A lot of people heard it. Everyone who did said "Cool, hope the
new record doesn't sound like Lazers" or "Aw, nice of Lupe to
make a song about a dead girl."

And this is not from Suzy from Aspen. This is from people who
write for Fader.

Its partly because hip-hop writers are wimpy and insecure.

Its also because many, black ones included, hate black people.

Its true.

Thanks for the nice words, but I don't think you
know what you're talking about here. Honestly no disrespect,
better I point it out here before you throw this around in
the real world.

>I don't agree with the "they would admit that “not getting
>it” is the fault of the reader, not the writer" idea.
>Because the artist/writer is the one with the medium, and he's
>the one who is addressing an audience with his work. The
>burden is on the writer for his audience to understand; the
>burden is on the teacher for his students to understand. Lupe
>is the one with the pen. I'm not saying that he has to adjust
>his art to make it legitimate art, because he has all of his
>freedoms/choices as an artist; but if he wants people to
>understand him, it's his job to make them understand. Lupe
>seems to sometimes have what Writer Steven Pinker refers to as
>"the curse of knowledge: a difficulty in imagining what it is
>like for someone else not to know something that you know."
>Here's an article he wrote about this:
>http://www.wsj.com/articles/the-cause-of-bad-writing-1411660188

He isn't talking about what you're talking about.

Read 'Sense of Style'. Pinker isn't talking about the
artist expressing themselves. He's talking about the expert
explaining a topic. Completely different things.

>Tetsuo & Youth does sound natural and free in a way that his
>last two albums didn't. He does sound focused on creating
>something great that he stands behind, and I'm satisfied. I
>bought the record. I think there's a lot of merit RE: black
>kids not being able to be smart like white kids, but I don't
>think that his last two albums being panned/ignored critically
>is a situation of critics being unfair and not self-assured. I
>think it's a matter of Lupe 1.) having that "curse of
>knowledge," 2.) the interpretation that Lupe is intentionally
>going over heads.
>
>And if you were right RE: what you said about critics with
>Lupe, what's the reasoning for them not feeling that way now?
>Tetsuo & Youth is getting props across the board: 86 on
>Metacritic, great reviews from fans and everywhere I've seen.
>I think it's perfectly reasonable to believe that Lupe made a
>record this time that is much better and more sincere-sounding
>than his last two, and that critics and listeners alike are
>happy to see that.

I don't think you read the review.

----------------------------



O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

This is my point: there's been a lot of conversation, pre-Tetsuo & Youth, about an audience not "getting" Lupe, right? I think that's more of a cause/effect with Lupe's style of writing, not a result of an insecure/unfair audience not wanting black artists to be smart. A big reason he has an audience in the first place is because of how smart his music has been, so this "listeners are insecure/they don't want black artists to be smart" idea just doesn't hold weight to me.

If he doesn't care if his audience gets it or not, then he doesn't have an obligation to speak in terms that they understand. Which is fine. But if people don't get it, I don't think it's their "fault" for not getting it; that's just one of the consequences that comes from making art that is challenging/dense/abstract. Some people are going to get it and/or like it, and some people won't.

Either Lupe doesn't realize that some people won't get it; he knows people won't get it but doesn't care; he makes his art that way for the sake of challenging his listeners to listen more closely; or he intentionally makes it that way so that only some people will get it. None of us really know which one/combo of those reasons applies, but the burden of making an audience understand is on the writer/creator. That just may be a fundamental disagreement we have on the relationship between artist and audience.

I think you're misplacing this idea of critics being insecure/unfair, and black artists not being allowed to be smart. It's definitely a valid idea in general, but w/Lupe, I think it's a deflection from the fact that Lupe sometimes just makes music that's tough to catch onto or isn't always dope musically.

Because Steven Pinker's specific gripe is experts who are
writing about a topic for a general audience.

If you aren't talking about an expert writing about a
topic for a general audience, then you aren't applying
the idea properly. I know, again, because I read the book.

I also know that literature is notorious for breaking
rules, and doing what they must to tell a story however
they must--changing tenses in the middle of a paragraph,
layering metaphor in metaphor in metaphor. We don't blame
them, because they are painters, and they've got to say
what they've got to say.

That isn't what Pinker is talking about. Like, at all.

>I think you're misplacing this idea of critics being
>insecure/unfair, and black artists not being allowed to be
>smart. It's definitely a valid idea in general, but w/Lupe, I
>think it's a deflection from the fact that Lupe sometimes just
>makes music that's tough to catch onto or isn't always dope
>musically.

LOL.

I think you just proved my point here.

----------------------------



O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

It ain't even scratching the surface of everything there is to see in this. He really released some functions and analytic geometry for us to pour over.

good review.
Makes me wonder what you really thought about Lasers.

is some lazy shit. The comparison should be more than "they both wore glasses and people didn't like them." Analogies like that just seem like you're trying to tell people you're smart. Other than that, congrats on this. If you cut it down, you should def send it to Lupe.

Ironic replies like that, from the exact demographic I'm talking
about, are why I have an inbox full of offers to write for a
check (as in, I don't have to send anything to anyone. The
pubs you spend money on already found me).

Seriously, thank you.

You sad you making me money?

Why? Inbox your paypal

----------------------------



O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

.

i really REALLY liked this LP on my first two listens. I was driving down the PCH the other day rocking it and almost got lost. it's that involved.

this is some of his best rapping and i love how everything sounds so full. ok, so it's not "boom bap" but i'm literally okay with that.

i'll come back with more observations during my plane ride back east.

interview - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2UA4KdxGu4

freestyle - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNgdsy0uXuM

the interview makes me like lu even more

or an assignment rather than entertainment

i have no idea but knowing dude's style and seeing the way folks here talk about it that's my impression

and i love smart rappers who rap about shit that's smart & shit cause i'm smart too

So yeah, it will be a chore for you.

----------------------------



O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

Dedinitely feels more like a chore early on, because there's so much going on that it's tough to make sense of. But once you get a general gist of the album - whether it's through your own listening or from a site like Rap Genius - it's less of a chore, and more of a constant discovery experience. At that point it's more like finding gems instead of trying to figure it out.

The production is his best since F&L/The Cool (perhaps period), so that helps a lot.

The first time I listened to this album it was in my car and I was driving around running various errands. That's not the most conducive environment to giving full attention to the lyrics, but I still enjoyed the album thoroughly during that initial listen.

This is an album that can be enjoyed driving somewhere or working or listening on your headphones while reading along with lyrics on RapGenius (I haven't tried this last one, but people in here seem to enjoy doing it).

the second part usually doesn't happen

but some of the things Lupe was saying inspired me to do so

and see for yourself
its not that hard

i want to buy & play, not willing to spend if i'm not sure

the rapping is worth the price of admission alone.

Not a great week for white guys who only like black gang
members.


----------------------------



O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

Want a hug?


----------------------------



O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

goes so fucking hard my god

First time i listened to album i didn't like this track but i really like it now.

Find myself humming the chorus in public.

No message

Even after no less than four explicit instructions of "NO PERSONAL ATTACKS", you guys can't help yourselves. I don't care who "started" it either.

This is why we can't have nice things.

Whatever, this is getting moved to the archives at the end of the day.