Slick Rick,Kool G Rap etc (you get the point, all supposed "better" mc's...

I'm sure Rakim wishes he could have and ENVIES the kind of career Ace has enjoyed

he has outlasted his contemporaries and stayed relavant longer than his peers (IE all the above)

continues to release lps way after some MC's stopped makeing lps (Slick Rick & BDK...KRS doesnt count as he releases 38 lps a year 3/4 which no one hears)

continues to find, develop and work with "new" talent (see the Show)

releases cohesive concept lps (all of his lps)

inspired one of the modern era's best MC's Eminem

matterfact his career arc just started to top out as most of his peers became dinosaurs

oh yeah he has more CLASSIC lps then all of them

>oh yeah he has more CLASSIC lps then all of them

TLA
SH
DA
LHS

speaking on TLA even though its the least heralded of the debut Juice Crew lps I think it stands the test of time better than all the rest. I know it came a couple years later but still front to back it still is listenable wheras Long live the Kane, Goin Off and Road to Riches while all classic are more era specefic and not complete bookend lps.

my opnion of course

Ace has one classic LP. That being SlaughtaHouse. How are all the other albums classic when Sittin On Chrome is better than them all except for SH?

despite Ace having a very clear reason for doing so


~~~~~~~~~
"This is the streets, and I am the trap." © Jay Bilas

http://www.last.fm/user/NodimaChee
http://www.popmatters.com/pm/archive/contributor/517
http://rateyourmusic.com/list/Nodima/run_that_shit__nodimas_hip_hop_handbook

Well, maybe that was West Coast since Doctor Dre produced it. *rimshot*

I couldn't believe that Ace straight up released the same song 2x and (more or less) got away with it. But it was all good.

Kane may only have one classic, but it's head and shoulders above those, IMO.

Rakim and KRS have three or four classics each, and same thing, they're on a different level.

Ace is cool but he's a second tier dude. Always had been, always will be. He's not in the discussion from where I sit.

1.disposable arts
2.Long hot summer
3.slaughterhouse

I love Ace....But u on that good white....

Ace is dope and he had to great LP's in the 90's, something that none of the other legends listed have

with that being said........ACE doesnt have a Paid in Full or Criminal Minded

he is dope.......nothing more........nothing less

KRS had return of the boom bap and the self titled album. Both were dope!

Rakim had Let The Rhythm Hit Em, Don't Sweat and 18th Letter our better than anything Ace has done in the 90s. Ace was very good EMCEE who rarely made wack sh!t but his career and legacy is no where near Rakim.

ironically, i think this touches on what BBlock was talking about in that post earlier today, yet he was talkin bout the yougin's. i actually think it's us older heads who are dogmatic. really is it that far fetched to consider ACE had a better CAREER, not influence, not impact than Ra, KRS, G Rap and BDK?

>really is it that far fetched to consider ACE had a
>better CAREER, not influence, not impact than Ra, KRS, G Rap
>and BDK?

Ace never made Follow the Leader or Let the Rhythm Hit 'Em.

He came close.

But he didn't.

Plain and simple.

~Austin

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in his discog.

Because I am extremely curious.

~Austin

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18th letter had great moments but was uneven

The Master and 7th Seal tho were both bad

>18th letter had great moments but was uneven
>The Master and 7th Seal tho were both bad

"7th Seal" I haven't heard other than two songs but "The Master" was good for what it was, it wasn't some masterpiece or dope album that you would expect for Rakim to make but it wasn't bad at all, it's better than some of KRS-One's questionable albums here & there in the past ten years.

no they weren't, they just get compared to his massive classic albums. Ace doesn't have to deal with that because he NEVER had a legendary high peak like Rakim.

Besides the two wack remixes, the 18th Letter was classic to me. Rakim was on another level with his flow/rhyme schemes/lyrics.

I did and thought it was soild album but didn't live up overall to Ra's classic albums. The production and hooks were 2nd rate and questionable but the flow/lyrics/rhyme schemes were top notch. Ra just needs the right producer to help steer him musically.

Holy Are You is one of Ra's best songs ever.

Ra just needs the right producer to help steer
>him musically.

he's been in the game 25 years and STILL needs someone to steer his (career) production for him is what you are sayin

that doesnt sound right

Masta Ace obviously doesnt have that problem. Im excited about his new project MA Doom. That shows Ace has an ear for what the audience wants. That is a support of his career acuman and success

you said it earlier he's outta touch with todays hip hop

no shame in that. he should officially bow out gracefully from recording like BDK & Slick Rick and do VHI honors and such. theirs no need to taint his legacy with subpar music

Why bow out when people like me still want to hear his shit?? He still has what it takes on the mic...Holy Are You is perfect example.

Its like fans cant get past Paid in Full or Criminal Minded to fully objectivly critique the very questionable 2nd half of Rakims career without Eric B and KRS's post Jive career

Matterfact KRS. Rakim and all have more bad lps than they do great ones wheras Aces career while maybye not as high has been more consistant throughout

he NEVER had a terrible album

You smokin that good sh!t. The first 3 Eric B & Rakim albums are bonifide classics and are better than anything Ace has done.

Don't Sweat and the 18th Letter are classics or near classics and are on par with Ace's best work.

While The Master and The 7th seal are underrated albums when compared to Rakim's best work. They can't fuck with Ace's best work.

Rakim has 5 classics and 2 solid albums. Rakim has always been quality over quanity.

I think at this point in their career Ace is more in touch with the Hip Hop scene while Ra lives off his legacy. Ra just needs the right producers cause he's still got it with the pen and spittin. He killed The 7th Seal with his lyrics and rhyme schemes. Holy Are You is one of the best songs in the past five yrs and one of Ra's best.

that was easy.


~~~~~~~~~
"This is the streets, and I am the trap." © Jay Bilas

http://www.last.fm/user/NodimaChee
http://www.popmatters.com/pm/archive/contributor/517
http://rateyourmusic.com/list/Nodima/run_that_shit__nodimas_hip_hop_handbook

Then come talk to me.

Until then, I don't care.

You didn't buy any Rakim album on its release date, therefore you are invalid.

No matter how hard you cry for attention.

Keep crying.

~Austin

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damn.

aren't you in your early 30s? so you've never bought a Steely Dan album on its release date. why are you posting in Steely Dan threads? stop making invalid posts.


this agenda is getting old.


~~~~~~~~~
"This is the streets, and I am the trap." © Jay Bilas

http://www.last.fm/user/NodimaChee
http://www.popmatters.com/pm/archive/contributor/517
http://rateyourmusic.com/list/Nodima/run_that_shit__nodimas_hip_hop_handbook

I have nothing to defend.

You, on the other hand, do.

Care to explain yourself?

Didn't think so.

~Austin

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My ever-so-devious agenda of making sure people know that Rakim is, in fact, a better rapper than Masta Ace?

(besides, you started this with a completely meaningless jab, kiddo)

Whatever, I'm done.

You're a white guy, in black face, in white face. With poor taste in music. I'd feel sorry for you if you weren't such an undying prick.

~Austin

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Ace is getting love in this thread...its no diss

He is a great MC.........just doesn't have the albums like KRS and Rakim...people would agree with this outside this board easily. As any 35-42 year old about the Golden Era and the MC's they loved and influenced them to follow hip hop even more...the songs and albums are stuck in our heads...Ace was a good Scottie Pippen. His LP's in the 2000's are very impressive though. Dude still got it and deserves all the props for that...

When you think about the sheer amount of heat that he dropped in that time period, it's almost staggering. And his output in the '00s gets maligned, but "Sneak Attack" and "KRS Styles" were both pretty good. He catalogue these days is mostly subpar, but he's one of the few MCs who can say that he's just about done it all in his career.

As for Ace, "Slaughta House" is a great album (it was my favorite album of '93), and his career resurgence in the '00s is pretty impressive. I've got "Disposable Arts" in my top 15 of the '00s, and "Long Summer," "A&E," and the EMC album were all excellent as well. But this four albums aren't seeing KRS's early run. Or Rakim's early run.

again Im goin by there whole careers to date

none of them are even relevant now except Ace

BDK & Slick Rick have gone on record saying that they have essentially stopped makeing records because they cant compete in todays market

Rakim's 7th seal treaded thin ice on being horrible and KRS is just throwin stuff at the wall with a mixture of good and bad

Ace, atlest has proven that he can still make a great record 20 yrs after he began

I really think I am just stateing the obvious here

It's not just that KRS has higher highs than Ace. It's the sheer number of "highs" that he has that have defined his career. Again, I love Ace, but his two best albums are SH and DA. KRS has SEVEN albums that either better than or nearly as good as both of those. That's what gives KRS the edge in careers.

>again Im goin by there whole careers to date

Well, Ace essentially stopped his career for five or six years in between albums, then released two solo albums, "retired" from making solo albums, and has released two collaborative albums since. KRS, no matter what you say about him, has never stopped making music. Closest he got was between "I Got Next" and "Sneak Attack," and much of that was due to label drama. Since getting off of Jive, he's been positively prolific, and has become a hip-hop "activist", which is as much as part of his career as any of his music. You can argue that his "activism" shades to corny, but dude is one of the few MCs making an effort to make hip-hop more than just music.

>BDK & Slick Rick have gone on record saying that they have
>essentially stopped makeing records because they cant compete
>in todays market

Slick Rick spent what would have been the prime of his career in prison. He only really got to release two albums the way first wanted to: The first one, which is at least as good as, if not better than all of Ace's albums, and the fourth one, which is quite excellent and certainly comparable to nearly all of Ace's albums. Also, Slick Rick was gone for eight years and tried to re-introduce himself into the mainstream, which is considerably more difficult than coming back from a hiatus and aiming for the underground (more on this later).

As for Kane, I'd say he stopped making records because he'd fallen off by 1991 and couldn't find a way to come back. But I have no problem saying Ace's career is >>>> Kane's.

>Ace, atlest has proven that he can still make a great record
>20 yrs after he began

I think what really sets Ace apart during his career resurgence his ability to the right producers and collaborators. Since his resurgence, he's used beats from the likes of 9th Wonder, Marco Polo, Khrysis, DJ Spinna, Dug Infinite, Deacon, Paul Nice, and M-Phazes. These are the types of producer that Rakim and KRS should be collaborating with regularly. KRS only went that route for "Survival Skills," which had the best beats he'd rapped over in about a decade; too bad it was one of the few albums where his lyrics were sub-par.

I'll also give Ace credit that when he decided to make his comeback, he didn't try to chase an audience that wouldn't be there. I find that a lot of these artists who were hot in the '80s and the '90s try to make their comeback, they're still using the mentality that they're trying to get onto the radio and sell a million records. That ship has almost always sailed. Ace is one of the few who was realistic about the listeners that he should be targeting, and has put together his albums accordingly. The only other of the artists that you listed that has gone that route is, yes, KRS-One.

to just add to the mix:

>Since getting off of Jive, he's been positively prolific>

I somehow feel that with each subsequent "medicore" release KRS is cheapening his overall legacy. I know some disagree but that way I see it sometimes it serves you better to "go out on top" like Lennox Lewis rathar than to keep on hanging on past your prime ala Roy Jones. That being said I in no way negate KRS's for his youthful enthusiasm on the mic I just think sometimes he does it for him (his ego) and not us (the fans).

Slick Rick was gone for eight years
>and tried to re-introduce himself into the mainstream, which
>is considerably more difficult than coming back from a hiatus
>and aiming for the underground (more on this later).

good analysis of Ricks career. it does support the fact that his career was sorta underwhelming tho

>I think what really sets Ace apart during his career
>resurgence his ability to the right producers and
>collaborators.>

thats def a big part of the formula for success. He may enjoy a simaler response with his MA Doom collabo. It seems like Ace picks his spots and makes lps/projects based on the muse from the beats or working with fresh new MC's. you can tell that these new creative minds invigorate him. KRS on the other hand seems to just make records for the sake of makeing records regardless of wether he is creativly motivated or not. It shows.

KRS only went that route for "Survival Skills,"
>which had the best beats he'd rapped over in about a decade;
>too bad it was one of the few albums where his lyrics were
>sub-par.>

case in point. This SHOULDA been a 5 star classic. the beats were great and even Buck sounded inspired. the problem is KRS sounded UNinspired (except for 2-3 songs)

Ace is one of the few who was realistic about the
>listeners that he should be targeting, and has put together
>his albums accordingly. The only other of the artists that you
>listed that has gone that route is, yes, KRS-One.

I agree with your premise to an extent.

I copped the first run of his albums, not the reissues (I got the JCOR version of DA, and Take a Look Around when I was still in school, not any re-release). I still argue to this day Sittin o Chrome is a dope ass album and nowhere near as wack as people think (hell MOST of the tracks aren't even on that West Cost vibe, but that's another post). I love the fact he's still highly regarded, influential and still doing his thing.

That said....

I can't sit here and fix my mouth to say he had a better career that Kane, KRS or Rakim. I still bump Slaughtahouse to this day but it's nowhere close to Paid In Full, Follow The Leader, Long Live The Kane, It's a Big Daddy Thing, or anything from Criminal Minded to Return of the Boom Bap (well, maybe Sex and Violence).

Now, if you look at it from the standpoint that he's still making music while the others may not be (or may not be as good as it was at their peak), fine. Say he's had a longer, or more viable career. But better? That's a bridge too far homie.




And for the record, Sittin' on Chrome was better than Disposable Arts. Deal with it.

...interesting post...to say that Ace is a second tier MC though is madness...cat has proven he can hold down entire projects on his own, duke is a certified great IMO....

had moments and strong cuts, but naw not seeing those cats in there prime and peak. those cats had larger than life albums that changed the game big difference.

not better emcee
not more influential
not have a better individual record than Paid in Full

career

Second half of his career was better than all of the golden era mc's is just the first half doesnt even come CLOSE. But he is dope..

,BDK, Slick Rick etc...

nor did I say that he has a better lp than Criminal Minded or PIF

just reclarifing that this is about these artists CAREERS

http://www.bing.com/Dictionary/search?q=define+career&qpvt=career+definttion&FORM=DTPDIA

1. long-term or lifelong job: a job or occupation regarded as a long-term or lifelong activity

the key word that sticks out to me are LONG TERM

maybe the rest
but krs?
i think krs had more lps out before ace even put out one
and shit
krs still puttin' lps out, which you mentioned
i dunno about havin' krs on that list

my issue w KRS is that he does too many albums of varying quality

sure hes stayed active but I cant help to think that he's weaking his overall legacy with each lp

hes strictly quantity over quality at this point

....so I understand the argument ....but if you take the top 10 KRS songs or Rakim songs and compare them to the top 10 Masta Ace ones, its not even close, Ace loses there


...i might be willing to say Ace has had better ALBUMS (overall) than any of the artists you listed

I think what he's saying is that if Masta Ace was a boxer, he would have a higherpunches landed percentage oveerall, zero losses, but no straight up CLASSIC KNOCKOUTS.

The real TOP TIER greats will usually have a gang of knockouts and a handful of losses, though..

I wouldn't say he's had a better career than any of them.. but he does have more consistency in terms of maintaining a level of quality in the music and albums of his discography.

I wouldn't say that Leonardo DiCaprio or Ryan Gossling have had a better career than James Earl Jones or Marlon Brando even if J.E.L. and M.B. have been in TONS of stinkers over the years..

Masta Ace was never seen on a widespread level as being at the top, therefore impossibly high expectations were never put upon him. The trappings of fame and fortune also probably weren't a big factor in his career so he never had to worry about it cheapening of watering down his sound. He never came off as being disingenuous because he never had to fake being the common man or close to the streets..

...but his career still isn't better than Rakim's, KRS-One/BDP's, Kool G Rap, or Big Daddy Kane's discography; I think young kats will think Masta Ace is big to them cause they probably wasn't around when those other legends were releasing albums but Masta Ace only had one album in '89/'90 (mediocre at that) when those others were dropping multiple dope albums in the eighties.

He got a second in 1993 with "Slaughtahouse" and his 3rd wind in 2001 with "Disposable Arts" which is his introduction to the new generation of heads, I will admit that his track record from his 2nd album on was dope but by time that album dropped the others already forged some of the best albums (and a blueprint on how to put together a dope album at that) by then but like many rappers who reach a certain level of success, soon they will dwindle.

To me no matter how many albums Masta Ace do that are dope, it will never compare to 90% of the albums Rakim, KRS-One, Kool G Rap, or BDK has done, but that doesn't mean I don't like him or some of his albums which I consider personal classics.

KRS...FOR THE FACT THAT KRS STAY DOING SHOWS ON A CONSTANT BASIS PLUS IN THE 2000'S KRS WAS SPEAKING ALL OVER THE PLACE AND HAD THE TEMPLE OF HIP HOP JUMPING OFF

ACE CAN'T COMPARE

I agree

in a sports analogy someone like Gale Sayers had an outstanding, exciting albeit short career (Biggie)

John Riggins had a longer career filled with alot of great years and some medicore and a few terrible (Kool G Rap)

Eric Dickerson started out on fire but then waned in the end (KRS)

Walter Payton was great for years, the best even but stumbled at the end (Rakim)

Thurman Thomas had a great career and was always among the best but never was THEE best RB but he was always counted on for consistant production (Masta Ace)

*Their is no equivalant to the GOATS Jim Brown and Barry Sanders IMO*

note they are all HOFers but an argument can be made that Thurman had the better career than all of them because of his consistency and intangiables (in this case super bowls akin to Masta Aces innovation of sittin on chrome, Eminem influence etc...)

for the record Thurman was never the RB with the best rushing stats but he arguably had the better CAREER

I really don't understand trying to judge an artist by his worst albums like you're doing with Rakim and KRS. No one has to listen to those guys' bad albums! Is someone making you listen to "Seventh Seal" everytime you finish "Let the Rhythm Hit 'Em?" Masta Ace definitely has the more consistent career. He should be proud of it, he should be commended! But 20 years from now people will still probably talk more about Criminal Minded than Slaughtahouse. KRS's voice and hooks are all over so many classic albums (Black Star, Straight Outta Compton). He's just unforgettable.

I'm very curious as to how Eminem bite or was influenced and whatnot by Ace?

I keep hearing this but I don't really how....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdS4ln9N3vs

or at least the Flow Ace was running with at one point.

Listen to that song and tell me they don't sound similar

That thing is from Masta Ace post-Disposable Arts, though. The similarities there are undeniable, but do you hear them at all on Sittin' on Chrome or Slaughterhouse? I actualy remember listening to Disposable Arts for the first time and being shocked at the change in Ace's delivery. If anyone was influenced flow-wise I think it was Ace.

and this was before Em was anywhere where people could hear him

I've yet to hear something by Eminem that people actually proved came out AFTER Ace had changed HIS flow to that style.

I'm no Em defender - I actually dislike him for the most part. But I never really understood where that came from as my timeline tells me that Ace changed his flow around DA and Em was already about by then....

I just always assumed Ace begat Em...because the inverse would tarnish Ace in my eyes.

He should be a pioneer, not a follower.

but better career?
not really, and he'd probably tell you that
I do wish his name would come up more often in the 'most consistent' arguments because he'd have just about everyone beat

his consistency is his strong suit...and as his concepts are also his calling card...its easier for him to stay relevant for longer periods of time.

D