**this post was inspired by fire’s wrongheaded attempt to bestow credibility as a singer on Beyonce (over Joss Stone) by arguing that Yonce had honed her craft in “the black Southern church” while Joss had learned how to sing by imitating records by black singers. Forgive me if my arguments are a bit anemic and sketchy because these days i have neither the time nor the energy to really flesh them out**

Rockism is above all things about mythology. And rocksim’s favorite myth is the idea that rock is “rebel music.” That’s what rock was in the beginning after all: a vehicle for white kids to rage against the world of their parents. And of all their parents values, the one the distrusted the most was commercialism. As a result, rock (and rockist thought) has remained obsessed with “authenticity” – the idea that the music you are hearing is not a commercial product but a true, heartfelt expression that may or may not just happen to make the artist a fortune which they will pretend to be casually disdainful of.

This is the reason that such a huge premium is placed on playing your own instruments and writing your own songs (and if you don’t write your own songs, at least make sure that you “adapted” them from the songs of some Depression-era Negro singer, who you obviously have a lot in common with spiritually).

This is the reason that rockers deify Robert Johnson, an obscure backwoods guitar player who was probably heard by a total 17 people during his short life and elevate him above more accomplished and well-known bluesmen like Leroy Carr and WC Handy.

This is why rockers from suburban New Jersey, Minnesota and Orange County, California insist on talking like early 20th century Okie sharecroppers. Because if you are white, the best way to rebel against your society is to align yourself with the lowest levels of African-American life.

Traditionally, black people in America have never shared this obsession with authenticity. Why would they? Everybody could see that they were black… they didn’t need to go out of their way to prove to anyone that they were oppressed! If any guiding philosophy drove black music in America, it was Keeping ahead of Whitey.

Keeping Ahead of Whitey had been a central tenet of black music since the days in the cotton fields when the n!ggers had to sing in coded spirituals to keep massa out of the loop of what was going on in the Underground (Railroad) and it continued up to the bebop era when a new generation of intellectual jazz players started spitting new forms of musical gobbledygook to confound the (white) jazz mainstream.

Keeping Ahead of Whitey culminated in Soul music, which drew its inspiration from the Black Church. If you wanted to Keep Ahead of Whitey, you couldn’t do much better than to look inward to the Church, a place that was so unremittingly “us” and which traditionally held much fascination and fear in the white imagination.

The Church was a place that was at the center of the black community, and its music was fairly unique, rejecting most of the stylings of American commercial music… of course, it wasn’t long before Whitey discovered that once you could scrub the music clean of some of the more unsettling elements of the Church such as the spirit possession and the angry shouting (whites tend to interpret any instance where blacks raise their voices as “angry”… go figger), they had some pretty cool sounds.

As a result, the Church became the new center of authenticity in American music. We learned that black singers were viewed as more “real” if we could believe that they were plucked out of the choir of the Bethel AME in East Hamhock, Alabama and that they were in essence untainted by commercialism. At the same time, white singers found that they were bestowed with instant authenticity and gravitas when they backed their songs with a bunch of fat black gospel singers in robes (this gimmick eventually filtered back to black musicians, as exemplified best by Robert Kelly… but we’ll get back to that later)

Eventually, the idea of black church singing became just another easily replicable “authenticity”-bestowing gimmick that could be reduced to a bunch of overdramatic riffs, melismas and vibratos.

The whole “i grew up singing in the Church” became a part of the standard credibility card in the utility belt of any black soul/R&B singer worth their salt. But i contend that it’s a load of bullshit.

I don’t doubt that these singers actually grew up going to church, or that they might have even sung in church, but the fact is that at this point in time the majority of black singers are more influenced by radio/MTV/BET than any kind of “pure” church tradition. In other words, they learn to sing “black” the same way their authenticity-seeking white peers do.

Let’s take Beyonce. Now, i know that she is a devout Christian and probably “grew up in the church” (whatever the fuck that means nowadays) but i’ve read/watched a grip of biographical material on her and i haven’t seen anything that indicates the Church played any central role in the formation of her musical identity.

As SoWhat so eloquently pointed out before, the girl has been singing all her life, but her training ground was NOT the church. It was talent shows, and the very careful study of performers in talent shows and of the major pop stars of the day. The entire trajectory of Beyonce/Destiny’s Child was from day one based on getting a record deal and becoming pop stars. Just like Joss Stone.

There are very few contemporary artists who sound like “pure” gospel singers to me… the only ones who readily come to mind are Faith, Kelly Price, and maybe Lil Mo (and is it coincidental that while all of them are respected for their vocal prowess, none of them are particularly successful on the commercial front?)

And to be honest, i wonder about the existence of any “pure” church singing tradition at this point in general. Especially since over the past decade or so, the Church has actually been drawing heavily from radio/MTV/BET in order to reach out to the disaffected youth and halt the rapid “graying” of the Black Church.

Okay, i’ve talked enough. Discuss.

it inspires hysteria.

hmmm... i'm tempted to do that. but fuckit... let it stand.

|Fliteweight|

what's gotten into you?

|Fliteweight|

in my opinion at least..

he referenced

(a) white mainstream vocalists' use of stereotypically-imagined blak gospel choirs, and

(b) blak vocalists' brandishing of their third soprano sunday status

as certificates of authenticity, being the gimmicks, not the church itself.


|Fliteweight|

he said this:

>At the same time, white singers found that
>they were bestowed with instant authenticity and gravitas
>when they backed their songs with a bunch of fat black
>gospel singers in robes (this gimmick eventually filtered
>back to black musicians, as exemplified best by Robert
>Kelly… but we’ll get back to that later)

and not this:

"blak gospel choirs in any/all dynamics are gimmicks".

imsayin', he's referencing neither mahalia nor take 6.


|Fliteweight|

black american church. it's like me studying buddhism from afar & moving to china & all of a sudden discounting those people's stance on their culture that grew up in it cuz i read a bunch of books & decided to join a buddhist temple there.......then proceeding to tell them what they should be thinking instead of what they feel..

unless of course, it's applause.

by this token, most posters here should never critique london's brokenbeat scene, early-nineties g-funk, east coast Hip-Hop, or any jazz pre-1950.


|Fliteweight|

a young black female singer is surely not influenced by what she said she was influenced by and by what everyone around her says she was influenced by. that's like me releasing an album & saying i was influence by pfunk&prince & afkap saying i was influenced by willie nelson. same fucking thing.

|Fliteweight|

______________________________

*TWINNING*

i don't understand what is going on here.

and joss is not.

i stated that joss mimicked black people in general & afkap stated that beyonce mimicked mariah carey & star search.

i can't do nothin' for ya man (c) F. Flav

maybe i really SHOULD edit Joss's name out of the post, since it looks like that's the shit everybody's gonna focus on

i replied the way i did to be annoying.

see also: ...ah, n/m

but it's an uphill struggle

it's the basis of a vocalist's tenure in junior pentecostal choirs shakily offered as irrefutable evidence of their skill that's being challenged.


|Fliteweight|

it was offered up because yonce's credibility was being credited to mariah fucking carey & ed mcmahon.

I agree with you but on the other im actually scared as to what this means lol.

Basically YT manages to figure, co opt and subvert black/african american musical expression for projection back to ourselves so we have a false understanding of the original meaning. Am I right in understanding this?

You know Fire and you are gonna kick off again right?
_____________________________

BREAKBEAT PRODUCTIONS (BBP) PRESENTS: MARLEY RIDDIM E.P

COMING SOON ON AWAKENING RECORDINGS....(2nd QUARTER 2005)

Uh oh they gave us a soundclick page....
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/7/breakbeatproductions.htm

How beautiful is Jill Scott? The answer: Unfathomable.

"If I dont like it I dont like/it dont mean that im hating" - Common

Top 10 albums I heard from 2004:



**1. KEANE - HOPES AND FEARS**
(comments coming later)

2. JILL SCOTT - BEAUTIFULLY HUMAN
(comments coming later)

3. KLASHNEKOFF - THE SAGAS OF....
(comments coming later)

4. TEEDRA MOSES - COMPLEX SIMPLICITY
(comments coming later)

5. ASH - MELTDOWN
(comments coming later)

6. MURS - MURS 3:16 THE 9TH EDITION
(comments coming later)

7. KANYE WEST - COLLEGE DROPOUT
(comments coming later)

8. RAPHAEL SADDIQ - AS RAY RAY
(comments coming later)

9. EMBRACE - OUT OF NOTHING
(comments coming later)

10. THE KILLERS - HOT FUSS
(comments coming later)



5 that nearly made it to the big 10:

1. Nas -Streets Disciple
2. Van Hunt - Van Hunt
3. Ghostface - The Pretty Toney LP
4. The Roots - Tipping Point
5. R.Kelly - Happy People/You Saved Me

Honourable Mentions (good music released in 2004 in no particular order):

Estelle - The 18th Day
Dizzee Rascal - Showtime
Dead Prez - RBG
Secret Machines - Now Here Is Nowhere
Mos Def - The New Danger
Usher - Confessions
Brandy - Afrodisiac
Razorlight - Up All Night
The Music - Welcome To The North
Talib Kweli - Beautiful Struggle
De La Soul - The Grind Date
Kelis - Tasty
The Zutons - Who Killed The Zutons?
Anthony Hamilton - Comin' From Where I'm From
Norah Jones - Feels Like Home (SE)
RJD2 - Since I Last Spoke
Pete Rock - Soul Survivor 2
*newly added* Manic St Preachers - Lifeblood
*newly added* Interpol -Antics
*newly added* The Prodigy - Always Outnumbered, Never Outgunned

Currently reading:
The Pathology of Eurocentrism - Charles Wm. Ephraim

UHURU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Red, Black and F****** Green For Life.

you can also read it as "the whole American music scene (and by extension the scenes that emulate it) is a big minstrel show"

this post - thank you AFKAP. I feel like ima go to the library lol.
_____________________________

BREAKBEAT PRODUCTIONS (BBP) PRESENTS: MARLEY RIDDIM E.P

COMING SOON ON AWAKENING RECORDINGS....(2nd QUARTER 2005)

Uh oh they gave us a soundclick page....
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/7/breakbeatproductions.htm

How beautiful is Jill Scott? The answer: Unfathomable.

"If I dont like it I dont like/it dont mean that im hating" - Common

Top 10 albums I heard from 2004:



**1. KEANE - HOPES AND FEARS**
(comments coming later)

2. JILL SCOTT - BEAUTIFULLY HUMAN
(comments coming later)

3. KLASHNEKOFF - THE SAGAS OF....
(comments coming later)

4. TEEDRA MOSES - COMPLEX SIMPLICITY
(comments coming later)

5. ASH - MELTDOWN
(comments coming later)

6. MURS - MURS 3:16 THE 9TH EDITION
(comments coming later)

7. KANYE WEST - COLLEGE DROPOUT
(comments coming later)

8. RAPHAEL SADDIQ - AS RAY RAY
(comments coming later)

9. EMBRACE - OUT OF NOTHING
(comments coming later)

10. THE KILLERS - HOT FUSS
(comments coming later)



5 that nearly made it to the big 10:

1. Nas -Streets Disciple
2. Van Hunt - Van Hunt
3. Ghostface - The Pretty Toney LP
4. The Roots - Tipping Point
5. R.Kelly - Happy People/You Saved Me

Honourable Mentions (good music released in 2004 in no particular order):

Estelle - The 18th Day
Dizzee Rascal - Showtime
Dead Prez - RBG
Secret Machines - Now Here Is Nowhere
Mos Def - The New Danger
Usher - Confessions
Brandy - Afrodisiac
Razorlight - Up All Night
The Music - Welcome To The North
Talib Kweli - Beautiful Struggle
De La Soul - The Grind Date
Kelis - Tasty
The Zutons - Who Killed The Zutons?
Anthony Hamilton - Comin' From Where I'm From
Norah Jones - Feels Like Home (SE)
RJD2 - Since I Last Spoke
Pete Rock - Soul Survivor 2
*newly added* Manic St Preachers - Lifeblood
*newly added* Interpol -Antics
*newly added* The Prodigy - Always Outnumbered, Never Outgunned

Currently reading:
The Pathology of Eurocentrism - Charles Wm. Ephraim

UHURU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Red, Black and F****** Green For Life.

>I agree with you but on the other im actually scared as to
> Basically YT manages to figure, co opt and subvert
>black/african american musical expression for projection
>back to ourselves so we have a false understanding of the
>original meaning. Am I right in understanding this?

but it's not.
______________________________

*TWINNING*

dont remind me even - i wanna sleep tonight lol
_____________________________

BREAKBEAT PRODUCTIONS (BBP) PRESENTS: MARLEY RIDDIM E.P

COMING SOON ON AWAKENING RECORDINGS....(2nd QUARTER 2005)

Uh oh they gave us a soundclick page....
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/7/breakbeatproductions.htm

How beautiful is Jill Scott? The answer: Unfathomable.

"If I dont like it I dont like/it dont mean that im hating" - Common

Top 10 albums I heard from 2004:



**1. KEANE - HOPES AND FEARS**
(comments coming later)

2. JILL SCOTT - BEAUTIFULLY HUMAN
(comments coming later)

3. KLASHNEKOFF - THE SAGAS OF....
(comments coming later)

4. TEEDRA MOSES - COMPLEX SIMPLICITY
(comments coming later)

5. ASH - MELTDOWN
(comments coming later)

6. MURS - MURS 3:16 THE 9TH EDITION
(comments coming later)

7. KANYE WEST - COLLEGE DROPOUT
(comments coming later)

8. RAPHAEL SADDIQ - AS RAY RAY
(comments coming later)

9. EMBRACE - OUT OF NOTHING
(comments coming later)

10. THE KILLERS - HOT FUSS
(comments coming later)



5 that nearly made it to the big 10:

1. Nas -Streets Disciple
2. Van Hunt - Van Hunt
3. Ghostface - The Pretty Toney LP
4. The Roots - Tipping Point
5. R.Kelly - Happy People/You Saved Me

Honourable Mentions (good music released in 2004 in no particular order):

Estelle - The 18th Day
Dizzee Rascal - Showtime
Dead Prez - RBG
Secret Machines - Now Here Is Nowhere
Mos Def - The New Danger
Usher - Confessions
Brandy - Afrodisiac
Razorlight - Up All Night
The Music - Welcome To The North
Talib Kweli - Beautiful Struggle
De La Soul - The Grind Date
Kelis - Tasty
The Zutons - Who Killed The Zutons?
Anthony Hamilton - Comin' From Where I'm From
Norah Jones - Feels Like Home (SE)
RJD2 - Since I Last Spoke
Pete Rock - Soul Survivor 2
*newly added* Manic St Preachers - Lifeblood
*newly added* Interpol -Antics
*newly added* The Prodigy - Always Outnumbered, Never Outgunned

Currently reading:
The Pathology of Eurocentrism - Charles Wm. Ephraim

UHURU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Red, Black and F****** Green For Life.

the black face of soul was never replaced by a white one. yeah you had the odd white soul singer making a name and doing well, but they were never seen as being properly 'authentic' by anyone except the masses (who black or white dont care for issues of authenticity either way, they just care if they like something or not). soul has always been seen as a black artists' game, much like hip hop (despite there being white musicians along the way).

>the black face of soul was never replaced by a white one.
>yeah you had the odd white soul singer making a name and
>doing well, but they were never seen as being properly
>'authentic' by anyone

right… i think with Soul, it got to a place where the essence could really not be co-opted because it was so intrinsically tied to the heart of black American life. But even then, you had a few singers who were eager to let you know that they grew up in “small towns” like Memphis (because in the popular Faulkner-nourished imagination, “southern” and “black” are almost the same thing) and so they are **almost** down with that black essence

except the masses (who black or white
>dont care for issues of authenticity either way, they just
>care if they like something or not).

I think that the masses DO care about authenticity… that’s why even people on the bus still view artists who write and play their own material as being “realer” than someone who makes shamelessly commercial product.

If we didn’t care about authenticity, then white rappers wouldn’t still need black sponsors (Eminem/Dre, Bubba Sparxx/Timbo) in order to be accepted by both black AND white audiences. And people would not have made fun of Vanilla Ice the way they did, because let’s face it… “ice ice baby” was a good record. People just had a hard time wrapping their heads around it because something about the guy did not seem “real” (as opposed to 3rd Bass, who never forgot to remind you that they danced in the Latin Quarter back in the day and had black girlfriends)

>because let’s face it… “ice
>ice baby” was a good record. People just had a hard time
>wrapping their heads around it because something about the
>guy did not seem “real”

Him being disengenius had little relevance...c'mon af that album is some of the most repugnant s**t to hit my ear drums eva...

"ice ice baby" the song was not bad

isnt entirely true. authenticty as an issue in hip hop has always been as paramount as in indie/rock.

for the sake fo argument, where do jil scott, anthony hamilton and say john legend fit into the pantheon of "chu'ch sanga's"


i have personally never felt that 'yonce had a church voice. her voice was a bit too sweet and polished for chu'ch. like it had been honed by someone and not blindly encouraged by shouts of "go'n girl! sang ya song chile"

anthony hamilton and john legen on the other hand have a gruffnes to their voices that would indicate that chu'ch feeling. when you listen to them you think...."damn they need to be in somebody's choir".

i personally put joss and 'yonce in the same category of well trained polished voices of pop music. not exactly gruff enough for the "chu'ch" sound


but thats just me...

return to your home citizens

madagascar titties- (c) phontiggalo the rap jiggalo

I would never, ever hit a woman....but i'll beat a bitch (c) wifey

.

nothing about the yonce screams church to me whatsoever

Jill doesn’t sound like a proper church singer to me… she’s a bit more jazz-tinged, which is not surprising since the majority of the Philly sound is inspired by the more “secular” soul sound of the early 70s

(i tend to bifurcate soul the same way i do the Civil Rights movement: 1960s = church/gospel-based/pacifist; 1970s = Black Panthers/jazz-fusion based/”angry” and explorative)

Anthony Hamilton… i don’t know what to say about him because i really can’t take him seriously at all. There was a period that he used to walk around wearing a trucker hat that said “ACTOR” on it, and i thought that was fitting because that is really how i see him. The dude is trying five hard © StacyAdams if you ask me… he IS a good singer, though he kinda represents what i was talking about black singers trying to “sound black”…

John Legend… hmmm. Something about him sounds authentically churchy to me, but at the same time his vocal approach makes me think that he learned to sing by studying Stevie Wonder’s more pop-oriented records much more than from the choir

might be too narrow.

again, the SOUND of it doesn't make church singing. the FEELING behind it, the emotionalism, the unfettered wailing or the brassy shouting is prolly more an indication of what a 'church singer' might sound like. Whatever the tone or heaviness of a person's voice sounds like, it can be adapted to the church sound. other influences can even be added to it. (see my orignal post about where i think 'gospel' comes from.)

that doesn't mean its not church, doe.

church can fluctuate and still be church, in my estimation.

also, folks can be secular and still be church, too. every prominent black singer in the last thirty years has prolly struggled with the pull of the secular against the teachings of the church. if al green sings about bonin' another woman, is he now NOT CHURCH.

not to me, given how many folks i know IN CHURCH that be bonin' folks they shouldn't.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
THE RED LIST*:
Big Mell
sometimes THEY know whats best for some of US. cause some of US aint
doing right compared to our counter parts (THEY = WHITE FOLKS)

janus
Is there any wonder why I hang out with mostly white or hispanic folks?
they arent as judgemental and dont have as many sexual hangups as black folk.

suave_bro
u know these muthafuckas are quick to run up on a black woman to ask her
to do some shit like this, because they know a black woman would be quick
to say yes to some shit like this...

Juxtarose (you know what i like about white guys?" they don't think having
a house, job and a car and no criminal record means they really have some
thing going on...)

* read up on IDA B. WELLS
******************************************************
OKP SLANGTIONARY

PPP = POINTLESS POAST, POTNAH
NGGCOT = NOTHING GOOD CAN COME OF THIS
MANDATE = STOP HATING AND SHOW SOMEBODY THAT LOOKS BETTER


******************************************************
** = all statements made about the physical traits of females are based
on Torez as a Single man not the CURRENT married Torez

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

*wheels turning, wheels turning*

-thebigfunk
homepage.mac.com/thebigfunk/

and what that is, is church folk sangin their ass off over beats now.

But when you listen to 'old' gospel, it wasn't just riffing for the sake of riffing, it was that certain notes, certain words would get accentuated. Nowadays, singers would stretch out EVERY note, and that could have only come from television.

When did this happen tho? Disco?

My co-worker actually blames Stevie, and that people started to mimic his singing instead of ol' church singers.

>My co-worker actually blames Stevie, and that people started
>to mimic his singing instead of ol' church singers.

Stevie has ruined and will continue to ruin generations of singers. Everyone tries to emulate the licks only, but they forget the context, the setup, the subtlety. Stevie has runs out the ass, but he can still sing a song straight without melisma...well, he used to anyway. Now even he's become a bad imitation of himself when he performs live.

I wish I had more time right now...I'll try and catch up later...

... Now, he said John Legend and Anthony sound gruff enough to be in a choir... No doubt. But then Beyonce can't cuz her voice is too polished... Prob cuz she's been more trained/ whateva... But I think there's a misconception about R&B bein mostly femme oriented... But the females in the R&B stuff right now are soundin like to much hip-hop or pop. But with Legend, Hamilton, other guys in it right now... it feels more connected to the past of em.

However- I agree wit AFKAP... cuz a true church singer lookin back at the church for her soul in the music... its less controlled and more powerful... alot of what the singers used 2 do back in the day. And i think thats what singin should be, alot more emotion then it has now.
But Beyonce is polished. She doesnt have that emotion that alotta people used to have. SHe doesnt have her voice growlin... shes a pretty good singer, but she hasnt grew up church singin... You can see it in the way she sings.

white rebellion (rock)
need for authenticity
affinity to black people
projection of authenticity onto black church
black people unwittingly buying into rockist projection

is that your argument?

anyway. only thing I have to say, is that the whole authenticity thing is so mangled... for instance if you look at authenticity in hiphop, or the very idea of "soul,"... or does it seem straightforward to your eyes?

It would be a lot easier if people just acknowledged that the vast majority of the music you hear (if not all of it) is commercial product, unless it’s a field recording or something

that had impact on larger culture. the PURE stuff was practiced down in sanctified churches out in the country south. it sounds more like slave work songs that anything else. most folks in america have never heard it.

the typical "gospel sound" that people like james cleveland and thomas dorsey popularized was a blending of sounds from the jump. i agree that that sound has been co-opted by america, but as a cat from the south that still hears sanctified music, my estimation is what america calls gospel is to 'real' gospel what mc hammer rap was to 'real' hip hop.

the only real HOLDOVER from that original gospel sound was the 'rough, passionate, earnestness' of the singing. the music itself is more blues and soul than that original church style.

on a certain level, there is a chicken/egg dynamic to this argument. one could argue that i've gone so far back into the history of black church music that the stuff i'm talking about isn't gospel. its pre-gospel, and therefore doesn't refute the initial point.(fair enough)

but honestly, i HEAR the church in beyonce's singing (especially on I'D RATHER BE WITH YOU) if she tones it down for commercial success, that doesn't refute her church upbringing. and if her music doesn't reflect the church teachings, that doesn't either. (jodeci is all from the chruch, but there lyrics hardly ever reflected the over teachings of the black church. same with al green and mary j. blige for various periods.)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
THE RED LIST*:
Big Mell
sometimes THEY know whats best for some of US. cause some of US aint
doing right compared to our counter parts (THEY = WHITE FOLKS)

janus
Is there any wonder why I hang out with mostly white or hispanic folks?
they arent as judgemental and dont have as many sexual hangups as black folk.

suave_bro
u know these muthafuckas are quick to run up on a black woman to ask her
to do some shit like this, because they know a black woman would be quick
to say yes to some shit like this...

Juxtarose (you know what i like about white guys?" they don't think having
a house, job and a car and no criminal record means they really have some
thing going on...)

* read up on IDA B. WELLS
******************************************************
OKP SLANGTIONARY

PPP = POINTLESS POAST, POTNAH
NGGCOT = NOTHING GOOD CAN COME OF THIS
MANDATE = STOP HATING AND SHOW SOMEBODY THAT LOOKS BETTER


******************************************************
** = all statements made about the physical traits of females are based
on Torez as a Single man not the CURRENT married Torez

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

the conventional "gospel" sound that most of us are accustomed to is actually a very deliberate (and originally very controversial) blues hybrid pioneered by ex-bluesmen like Thomas Dorsey, but i was gonna save that for later

I know you are talking about females but really, on Brown Sugar and Voodoodoes he show enough 'gospel' church styles and authenticity to be considered true.

He did sing in the church right ?

methinks you might be misinterpreting the point of the post, man...

>And to be honest, i wonder about the existence of any “pure”

not really. when you wrote this in the end it made me think of D' and his church upbringing, that's all. You mention Kelly and Faith, and I think D' still has more pureness in his voice, harmonies, and music than those two do in their hands.

i'm just exploring the philosophies on which this credibility is based

so no... i don't "give a pass" to D'Angelo. i'm not "giving a pass" to anybody, really.

edit:
or rather, he IS that great a singer, but his voice isnt as great as his skills as a singer.

...that as an outsider who did not grow up in the Black church, I doubt that you have the authority to speak on this matter. To the point of substance, I'll defer to Torez's statements.

<-- Slicka than ya average.

"It's a war in the streets tonight
And nobody's really feelin alright
I got a blunt for my chronic
A juice for my tonic
I know now
That I'm feelin right if it goes down"
-- Nas, "War"

"perky breasts go with anything....its like the black shoe."
-- my nigga my bruh, OKP thashadow

"I've spoken to women that said they deserved men that made 6 digits, when I asked what they were bringin' to the table, they ran their hands down their malformed bodies, like that's enough."
--OKP Grand_Royal, on chickenheads

i mean, because on some level, in reading what you posted, you approached the Black church like an anthropologist investigating a new phenomenon, whether you can cop to that or not. and on some level it takes someone steeped in the tradition to be able to adequately and accurately critique it.

<-- Slicka than ya average.

"It's a war in the streets tonight
And nobody's really feelin alright
I got a blunt for my chronic
A juice for my tonic
I know now
That I'm feelin right if it goes down"
-- Nas, "War"

"perky breasts go with anything....its like the black shoe."
-- my nigga my bruh, OKP thashadow

"I've spoken to women that said they deserved men that made 6 digits, when I asked what they were bringin' to the table, they ran their hands down their malformed bodies, like that's enough."
--OKP Grand_Royal, on chickenheads

was for the sake of objectivity

notice that i never explicitly referenced myself as black in the post... that's because i hate racial discourse that have the tone of "what you white folks don't understand about *us* is..." (see the current Ego Trip Race-o-Rama series on VH1, for instance)

i feel it automatically alienates the audience, so i deliberately wrote about the Negro in the third person (the same way James Baldwin did)

"The whole 'i grew up singing in the Church' became a part of the standard credibility card in the utility belt of any black soul/R&B singer worth their salt. But i contend that it’s a load of bullshit."

And the simple fact is, your contention isn't based on anything other than pure conjecture, for exactly the reasons that fire lays out in her opening statement. The Church and its choirs are a very real and very central part of the Black experience and the experience of many Black singers, and you discount all of that as a marketing gimmick. And the mere act of doing so speaks (1) to an outsider status where you can't comprehend the Black church and (2) an anthropological view that attempts to reduce *us* to terms *you* can understand.

<-- Slicka than ya average.

"It's a war in the streets tonight
And nobody's really feelin alright
I got a blunt for my chronic
A juice for my tonic
I know now
That I'm feelin right if it goes down"
-- Nas, "War"

"perky breasts go with anything....its like the black shoe."
-- my nigga my bruh, OKP thashadow

"I've spoken to women that said they deserved men that made 6 digits, when I asked what they were bringin' to the table, they ran their hands down their malformed bodies, like that's enough."
--OKP Grand_Royal, on chickenheads

i'll have to come back and talk to you once i compose myself

<-- Slicka than ya average.

"It's a war in the streets tonight
And nobody's really feelin alright
I got a blunt for my chronic
A juice for my tonic
I know now
That I'm feelin right if it goes down"
-- Nas, "War"

"perky breasts go with anything....its like the black shoe."
-- my nigga my bruh, OKP thashadow

"I've spoken to women that said they deserved men that made 6 digits, when I asked what they were bringin' to the table, they ran their hands down their malformed bodies, like that's enough."
--OKP Grand_Royal, on chickenheads

>"The whole 'i grew up singing in the Church' became a part
>of the standard credibility card in the utility belt of any
>black soul/R&B singer worth their salt. But i contend that
>it’s a load of bullshit."
>
>And the simple fact is, your contention isn't based on
>anything other than pure conjecture, for exactly the reasons
>that fire lays out in her opening statement.

Nigga, ANYthing that anybody says on this board is largely based on conjecture. What makes the difference is the extent to which you can back your theory up with cogent facts and sturdy research. If you don’t agree with what i’m saying, then go ahead and find some facts to refute me rather than attempting to discredit me as an individual based on where or how i might have grown up… hell, i didn’t include myself in the post in any way, so why are you bringing me into it?

Deal with the FACTS, son… argue with the message and not the messenger.

Obviously, your only refutation is “this nigga ain’t even American”… which is incredibly lame on at least 3 levels.

The Church and
>its choirs are a very real and very central part of the
>Black experience and the experience of many Black singers,
>and you discount all of that as a marketing gimmick.

I really think the problem we’re encountering here is your difficulty with elementary reading and comprehension. I think i explicitly stated at least once in the post that the Church was the realest thing in black life. I never said that it was a gimmick.

What i DID say was that it is often used as a crutch to add “soulfulness” or “authenticity” to various forms of pop music (see: The Rolling Stones’ “you can’t always get what you want” or Foreigner’s “i wanna know what love is” or R. Kelly’s “Gotham City”)

Reading is fundamental, dude.

And the
>mere act of doing so speaks (1) to an outsider status where
>you can't comprehend the Black church

LOL i can’t even begin to comprehend the logical leap of faith that gets you from there to here

and (2) an
>anthropological view that attempts to reduce *us* to terms
>*you* can understand.

Uh huh. Riiiiiiiiiiight.

Anyways, as I said in my original, my points were largely covered by Torez, and as I said subsequently, the balance of my points were covered by fire. I just brought this up because you have to consider the messenger as well as the message. Whether you tried to craft your statement to SOUND objective or not, it's not subjective, nor can it be, nor is it necessarily desirable. If you embrace your own perspective, then people can actually debate the specious argument you presented, rather than trying to tease out your agenda/perspective.

<-- Slicka than ya average.

"It's a war in the streets tonight
And nobody's really feelin alright
I got a blunt for my chronic
A juice for my tonic
I know now
That I'm feelin right if it goes down"
-- Nas, "War"

"perky breasts go with anything....its like the black shoe."
-- my nigga my bruh, OKP thashadow

"I've spoken to women that said they deserved men that made 6 digits, when I asked what they were bringin' to the table, they ran their hands down their malformed bodies, like that's enough."
--OKP Grand_Royal, on chickenheads

you don't even have a point of view of your own, do you?

you just want to hang around and cosign with anybody who attempts to bash me.

weak.

i came in the post, torez had already basically made my point, and i added a piece i felt was missing. fire posted about the same time as i did and said basically the same things i did, but w/a lil more flavor. so why re-state what i felt has already been said?

shit dude, i barely even ever read your posts, let alone respond to them. read this one and felt you were both wrong and out of your depth.

<-- Slicka than ya average.

"It's a war in the streets tonight
And nobody's really feelin alright
I got a blunt for my chronic
A juice for my tonic
I know now
That I'm feelin right if it goes down"
-- Nas, "War"

"perky breasts go with anything....its like the black shoe."
-- my nigga my bruh, OKP thashadow

"I've spoken to women that said they deserved men that made 6 digits, when I asked what they were bringin' to the table, they ran their hands down their malformed bodies, like that's enough."
--OKP Grand_Royal, on chickenheads

that is all i will say about that, since it seems that arguing with you is like trying to reason with a torn paper bag.

they come in all races. theyre not all liberal, condescending old bearded white men in search of some ethnic freakshow to pontificate about.

and as far as old white men with beards go, if it wasnt for alan lomax and his cronies, a lot of early, great blues recordings wouldnt have been made and we'd all be worse off.

white men are evil and have only brought evil into this world

what evil was the result of Lomax's efforts, you may well ask?

'Play'

the prosecution rests.

>what evil was the result of Lomax's efforts, you may well
>ask?
>
>'Play'
>
>the prosecution rests.

did u go to church with beyonce? how many tuesdays & thursdays did you spend from 6:30 - 9:30 at choir practice with mr griffin? how many times a week did ur mom & dad make u practice piano/voice for church? was the piano bench in ur home full of the a.m.e or baptist hymnals.....3 different versions cuz every year there were new & improved hymns? how many bus trips did you take traveling all over w/ur church choir ala the gospel chitlin circuit cuz you guys had a reputation for bringing the biggest blackest man to tears with your uplifting voices? how many times have u seen sister johnson on the front row get filled w/the holy spirit while the missionary board has to fan him off of her cuz her & the holy spirit are gonna mess around & knock out the whole first & second pews with all that dancing? how many annual & general conferences have u been to where the choir amassed 150+ voices & heavens gates opened up & u were genuinely moved? which gospel choir in ur church was the best? the youth? the mt. zion ame choir? the senior choir? how many gospel competitions have you been to where the crux of ur life and all those practices depended on you moving the whole entire room to tears & repentance?

what is there to discuss when everything you so grandiloquently stated regarding beyonce's ascendancy was based on suspicion? while beyonce talks about the church without end? this whole shtick is a guesstimate....every frigging article & interview w/regard to ms. knowles church upbringing that i've read seen & heard point to her church. on vh1's driven (which i'm pretty sure u are alluding to, they took a whole 5 minute segment or so & talked about her church upbringing? how would a young man that did NOT grow up in an american black church, place a young woman that did not grow up in NOR was influenced by a black church, discount the said black church's influence on ANY black american singer's that says, on many occasions, on tape & record that god, his son jesus & their cousin the holy spirit are the biggest influence on their lives? ......until you've gone to church 3 times a week forcefully, for 18 years....u keep pulling these theories out ur head, the sky & ur ass to denigrate & besmirch black american church culture & it's huge ass influence on black music yesterday, today & forever in lieu of beholding a golden calf (read: yt girl) on a pedestal. i hope it makes u feel better. the black church would like to send u a big middle finger, but jesus wouldn't like that.

pls

Spare me the ad hominem attacks… either respond to the substance of the post or just shut up

because if you didn't you are pulling this theory (however untheoretical it is) out or ur ass like a string of beads

either you agree with my (well-informed and well-thought out) theory or you don't.

if the latter is the case, then you tell me why, in objective terms.

you are becoming tiresome, as all your arguments are starting to revolve around the axis of "you can't understand because you are not

a) black
b) American
c) a woman
d) the offspring of clergy
e) in short, you are not FIRE"

>either you agree with my (well-informed and well-thought
>out) theory or you don't.

if you havent figured out now that ure theory is neither well informed or well thought AND that i don't agree with it, u gottalot2learn.


>
>if the latter is the case, then you tell me why, in
>objective terms.

i told you why down there. i'm not gonna sit & go point to point, cuz u're' coming from a combative & defensive stance on this & i'm way too passionate about church to even go there, it's the core of alot of people's being...& i don't push my feelings about god & church on people cuz thats not how i operate...& really, beyonce sings secular music & shakes her ass which isn't necessarily christian like but so did marvin, al & prince....all of us brought up in the church have a tendency to struggle with the heart & the flesh.......but just cuz her ass is hanging out doesn't mean that she wasn't influenced by jesus as opposed to mariah carey (who never danced outside of the dream lover video).


>
>you are becoming tiresome, as all your arguments are
>starting to revolve around the axis of "you can't understand
>because you are not

look at the michelin calling the goodyear tiresome! we treading on the same road black.


>
>a) black
>b) American
>c) a woman
>d) the offspring of clergy
>e) in short, you are not FIRE"


u rn't

>if you havent figured out now that ure theory is neither
>well informed or well thought AND that i don't agree with
>it, u gottalot2learn.

so tell me why (c) Boomtown Rats

>>if the latter is the case, then you tell me why, in
>>objective terms.
>
>i told you why down there. i'm not gonna sit & go point to
>point, cuz u're' coming from a combative & defensive stance
>on this

no, actually that would be YOU.

i just stated a theory. i'm not trying to buck anybody down. either you accept it or you don't...

>& i'm way too passionate about church to even go
>there, it's the core of alot of people's being...

not that it matters, but i'm willing to bet that i'm more passionate about God and the Church than you ever have been or will be.

& i don't
>push my feelings about god & church on people cuz thats not
>how i operate...

this discussion is about neither God nor the Church, though. it's about music and music marketing.

& really, beyonce sings secular music &
>shakes her ass which isn't necessarily christian like but so
>did marvin, al & prince....all of us brought up in the
>church have a tendency to struggle with the heart & the
>flesh.......

btw that's another rockist Soul myth that i'm gonna tackle later

but just cuz her ass is hanging out doesn't mean
>that she wasn't influenced by jesus as opposed to mariah
>carey

???

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

>>if you havent figured out now that ure theory is neither
>>well informed or well thought AND that i don't agree with
>>it, u gottalot2learn.
>
>so tell me why (c) Boomtown Rats

", but the fact is that at this point in time the majority of black singers are more influenced by radio/MTV/BET than any kind of “pure” church tradition. In other words, they learn to sing “black” the same way their authenticity-seeking white peers do."

motherfucker please. if that ain't the biggest lie.....fantasia's on the phone & jaheim left a message for you & john legend would like to have lunch with you and faith evans said negro please & do i even need to drag robert kelly into this? or almost any other contemporary black singer that is hot?
all of the press releases & interviews i've seen with said artists mention in NO UNCERTAIN terms that growing up in the church (read black church) influenced than more than any fucking mtv/bet....& truth be told, there are very few black music acts on mtv/bet since their inceptions that are NOT steeped in church...please name at least five that get regular rotation that sing r&b? btw, the rolling stones are a british rock band, last time i checked, does power 99 in philly play the stones?




>
>>>if the latter is the case, then you tell me why, in
>>>objective terms.
>>
>>i told you why down there. i'm not gonna sit & go point to
>>point, cuz u're' coming from a combative & defensive stance
>>on this
>
>no, actually that would be YOU.


i told u how passionate i am about the situation, don't fuck w/the church.

>
>i just stated a theory. i'm not trying to buck anybody down.
>either you accept it or you don't...

ur theory is unacceptable & i refute it concurrently.


>
>>& i'm way too passionate about church to even go
>>there, it's the core of alot of people's being...
>
>not that it matters, but i'm willing to bet that i'm more
>passionate about God and the Church than you ever have been
>or will be.
>

BwahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11


STOP
IMMEDIATELY
NIGGER PLEASE


>& i don't
>>push my feelings about god & church on people cuz thats not
>>how i operate...
>
>this discussion is about neither God nor the Church, though.
>it's about music and music marketing.

so why was god & church used as the polestar for starting the discussion, are we talkign about blk music & marketing as it relates to other music & marketing or are we talking about blk music & marketing as it relates to the church?are we gonna remove the church fromt he argument cuz if so then we have a whole nother argument going on here....if we're gonna leave jesus in it, then it is as it stands.


>& really, beyonce sings secular music &
>>shakes her ass which isn't necessarily christian like but so
>>did marvin, al & prince....all of us brought up in the
>>church have a tendency to struggle with the heart & the
>>flesh.......
>
>btw that's another rockist Soul myth that i'm gonna tackle
>later


this whole post is a myth, it's a white unicorn w/a horn & rainbow wings riding on the mighty clouds of joy.....some of which are rolling over in their heavenly graves.


>
>but just cuz her ass is hanging out doesn't mean
>>that she wasn't influenced by jesus as opposed to mariah
>>carey
>
>???
>
>HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA


dancing = holy spirit=church, that's not far fetched

and i am not gonna go there with you

either stick to the subject of the post or make your own in which we can discuss the other things that interest you

>dancing = holy spirit=church, that's not far fetched


______________________________

*TWINNING*

______________________________

*TWINNING*

church music has to be EXPERIENCED LIVE to be fully appreciated/known.

i can listen to jazz on cd - that's one thing.

to see it live is quite another.

to actually PLAY IT takes it to another level.

back to my original point: really, to try to critique church music without a live experience with it is like trynna appreciate hip hop without having seen a live show.

you missing the PURE ESSENCE of it. as in, the THING that makes it what it really is, and the SOURCE that makes people produce the art the way they do.

i mean, you ain't gotta be from MISSISSIPPI to appreciate blue...in fact, you can appreciate blues just listening to it on WAX.

but

until you have heard it LIVE....you can't know that the MUSIC is just a by-product of the circumstance. and that what makes BLUES isn't the music, but what people were FEELING that made them produce music that way.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
THE RED LIST*:
Big Mell
sometimes THEY know whats best for some of US. cause some of US aint
doing right compared to our counter parts (THEY = WHITE FOLKS)

janus
Is there any wonder why I hang out with mostly white or hispanic folks?
they arent as judgemental and dont have as many sexual hangups as black folk.

suave_bro
u know these muthafuckas are quick to run up on a black woman to ask her
to do some shit like this, because they know a black woman would be quick
to say yes to some shit like this...

Juxtarose (you know what i like about white guys?" they don't think having
a house, job and a car and no criminal record means they really have some
thing going on...)

* read up on IDA B. WELLS
******************************************************
OKP SLANGTIONARY

PPP = POINTLESS POAST, POTNAH
NGGCOT = NOTHING GOOD CAN COME OF THIS
MANDATE = STOP HATING AND SHOW SOMEBODY THAT LOOKS BETTER


******************************************************
** = all statements made about the physical traits of females are based
on Torez as a Single man not the CURRENT married Torez

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

that i've never heard church music live

LOL

look. y'all... this post is not about me. just deal with the issues that are in the post and leave my personal life out of it.

moreso saying that experiencing culture gives a person more insight into it than anything else.

you are making a lot of statements about CULTURE, and i'm saying that

1.) some of your points are wrong

2.) it could very well be because you have not experienced the culture you're talking about. this whole idea of 'black folks not putting a premium on authenticity' is one example.

the reason church music flourishes is primarily BECAUSE the only thing folks care about is the AUTHENTIC FEELING behind the singer, not how good it sounds.

i can't help but think if you'd spent a lot of time EXPERIENCING church culture, you'd know this.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
THE RED LIST*:
Big Mell
sometimes THEY know whats best for some of US. cause some of US aint
doing right compared to our counter parts (THEY = WHITE FOLKS)

janus
Is there any wonder why I hang out with mostly white or hispanic folks?
they arent as judgemental and dont have as many sexual hangups as black folk.

suave_bro
u know these muthafuckas are quick to run up on a black woman to ask her
to do some shit like this, because they know a black woman would be quick
to say yes to some shit like this...

Juxtarose (you know what i like about white guys?" they don't think having
a house, job and a car and no criminal record means they really have some
thing going on...)

* read up on IDA B. WELLS
******************************************************
OKP SLANGTIONARY

PPP = POINTLESS POAST, POTNAH
NGGCOT = NOTHING GOOD CAN COME OF THIS
MANDATE = STOP HATING AND SHOW SOMEBODY THAT LOOKS BETTER


******************************************************
** = all statements made about the physical traits of females are based
on Torez as a Single man not the CURRENT married Torez

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

some kind of bush-ass bamma fresh off the boat

you know... i've actually spent more of my life in America than in Africa. all this "you haven't experienced the culture" shit is really starting to annoy me

if you think my facts are wrong, fine. concentrate on that. don't make silly assumptions about what i have and haven't experienced in life, because you don't know me

as for not making "silly assumptions about what i have and haven't experienced in life", all i can say is YOU are the cat that started this post talking about PURE gospel, when there is no such thing.

so....

all i'm saying is that there are so many wrong assumptions in your initial post that it makes me question exactly what you know about the topic your talking about.

if a mug said common wasn't hip hop cause 'like water for chocolate' didn't have that PURE hip hop sound , i'd respond to them the same way.

when mugs be saying 'this party/radio rap isn't REAL HIP HOP' i routinely do.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
THE RED LIST*:
Big Mell
sometimes THEY know whats best for some of US. cause some of US aint
doing right compared to our counter parts (THEY = WHITE FOLKS)

janus
Is there any wonder why I hang out with mostly white or hispanic folks?
they arent as judgemental and dont have as many sexual hangups as black folk.

suave_bro
u know these muthafuckas are quick to run up on a black woman to ask her
to do some shit like this, because they know a black woman would be quick
to say yes to some shit like this...

Juxtarose (you know what i like about white guys?" they don't think having
a house, job and a car and no criminal record means they really have some
thing going on...)

* read up on IDA B. WELLS
******************************************************
OKP SLANGTIONARY

PPP = POINTLESS POAST, POTNAH
NGGCOT = NOTHING GOOD CAN COME OF THIS
MANDATE = STOP HATING AND SHOW SOMEBODY THAT LOOKS BETTER


******************************************************
** = all statements made about the physical traits of females are based
on Torez as a Single man not the CURRENT married Torez

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

you can't criticize them for not ADHERING to it, seems to me.

which makes the critique even worse, cause now its just picking to be picking.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
THE RED LIST*:
Big Mell
sometimes THEY know whats best for some of US. cause some of US aint
doing right compared to our counter parts (THEY = WHITE FOLKS)

janus
Is there any wonder why I hang out with mostly white or hispanic folks?
they arent as judgemental and dont have as many sexual hangups as black folk.

suave_bro
u know these muthafuckas are quick to run up on a black woman to ask her
to do some shit like this, because they know a black woman would be quick
to say yes to some shit like this...

Juxtarose (you know what i like about white guys?" they don't think having
a house, job and a car and no criminal record means they really have some
thing going on...)

* read up on IDA B. WELLS
******************************************************
OKP SLANGTIONARY

PPP = POINTLESS POAST, POTNAH
NGGCOT = NOTHING GOOD CAN COME OF THIS
MANDATE = STOP HATING AND SHOW SOMEBODY THAT LOOKS BETTER


******************************************************
** = all statements made about the physical traits of females are based
on Torez as a Single man not the CURRENT married Torez

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

he didn't grow up in it...it's like being trained to be a doctor for 12 years vs. taking online courses for a medical degree.

i'm down.

>back to my original point: really, to try to critique church
>music without a live experience with it is like trynna
>appreciate hip hop without having seen a live show.

this post isn't about critiquing church music.

>you missing the PURE ESSENCE of it. as in, the THING that
>makes it what it really is, and the SOURCE that makes people
>produce the art the way they do.

what does that have to do w/the post?

>i mean, you ain't gotta be from MISSISSIPPI to appreciate
>blue...in fact, you can appreciate blues just listening to
>it on WAX.
>
>but
>
>until you have heard it LIVE....you can't know that the
>MUSIC is just a by-product of the circumstance. and that
>what makes BLUES isn't the music, but what people were
>FEELING that made them produce music that way.

what does that have to to do w/the post?

lol

where in the post did afkap critique church music???

-thebigfunk
homepage.mac.com/thebigfunk/

>>this post isn't about critiquing church music.<<

the FIRST thing the cat came with was talking about a 'pure' gospel sound. he made a characterization of what it sounded like. to me, characterization = assesment = critque

in my estimation, he is wrong off the bat. which is what made me call into question everything else he said. he went on to say other things i think are in error (black folks not valuing authenticity, for one), which backed up my initial skepticism.

people say enough off the wall stuff about a subject, you eventually call into question if they know what they are talking about.

how is that unreasonable?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
THE RED LIST*:
Big Mell
sometimes THEY know whats best for some of US. cause some of US aint
doing right compared to our counter parts (THEY = WHITE FOLKS)

janus
Is there any wonder why I hang out with mostly white or hispanic folks?
they arent as judgemental and dont have as many sexual hangups as black folk.

suave_bro
u know these muthafuckas are quick to run up on a black woman to ask her
to do some shit like this, because they know a black woman would be quick
to say yes to some shit like this...

Juxtarose (you know what i like about white guys?" they don't think having
a house, job and a car and no criminal record means they really have some
thing going on...)

* read up on IDA B. WELLS
******************************************************
OKP SLANGTIONARY

PPP = POINTLESS POAST, POTNAH
NGGCOT = NOTHING GOOD CAN COME OF THIS
MANDATE = STOP HATING AND SHOW SOMEBODY THAT LOOKS BETTER


******************************************************
** = all statements made about the physical traits of females are based
on Torez as a Single man not the CURRENT married Torez

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

>the FIRST thing the cat came with was talking about a 'pure'
>gospel sound. he made a characterization of what it sounded
>like. to me, characterization = assesment = critque

here's the only mention of purity i saw:

I don’t doubt that these singers actually grew up going to church, or that they might have even sung in church, >>but the fact is that at this point in time the majority of black singers are more influenced by radio/MTV/BET than any kind of >>>“pure”<<< church tradition.<< In other words, they learn to sing “black” the same way their authenticity-seeking white peers do.

that's got nothing to do w/critiquing gospel.

and it's toward the end of the post anyway...it's not the 1st thing he said.

>in my estimation, he is wrong off the bat. which is what
>made me call into question everything else he said. he went
>on to say other things i think are in error (black folks not
>valuing authenticity, for one), which backed up my initial
>skepticism.

i wondered about the authenticity part too.

>>There are very few contemporary artists who sound like “pure” gospel singers to me… <<<

to make this claim, you have to have looked at 'gospel' music and ascertained what you think 'pure gospel' sounds like.

ascertain = critique

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
THE RED LIST*:
Big Mell
sometimes THEY know whats best for some of US. cause some of US aint
doing right compared to our counter parts (THEY = WHITE FOLKS)

janus
Is there any wonder why I hang out with mostly white or hispanic folks?
they arent as judgemental and dont have as many sexual hangups as black folk.

suave_bro
u know these muthafuckas are quick to run up on a black woman to ask her
to do some shit like this, because they know a black woman would be quick
to say yes to some shit like this...

Juxtarose (you know what i like about white guys?" they don't think having
a house, job and a car and no criminal record means they really have some
thing going on...)

* read up on IDA B. WELLS
******************************************************
OKP SLANGTIONARY

PPP = POINTLESS POAST, POTNAH
NGGCOT = NOTHING GOOD CAN COME OF THIS
MANDATE = STOP HATING AND SHOW SOMEBODY THAT LOOKS BETTER


******************************************************
** = all statements made about the physical traits of females are based
on Torez as a Single man not the CURRENT married Torez

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

you two man..........
_____________________________

BREAKBEAT PRODUCTIONS (BBP) PRESENTS: MARLEY RIDDIM E.P

COMING SOON ON AWAKENING RECORDINGS....(2nd QUARTER 2005)

Uh oh they gave us a soundclick page....
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/7/breakbeatproductions.htm

How beautiful is Jill Scott? The answer: Unfathomable.

"If I dont like it I dont like/it dont mean that im hating" - Common

Top 10 albums I heard from 2004:



**1. KEANE - HOPES AND FEARS**
(comments coming later)

2. JILL SCOTT - BEAUTIFULLY HUMAN
(comments coming later)

3. KLASHNEKOFF - THE SAGAS OF....
(comments coming later)

4. TEEDRA MOSES - COMPLEX SIMPLICITY
(comments coming later)

5. ASH - MELTDOWN
(comments coming later)

6. MURS - MURS 3:16 THE 9TH EDITION
(comments coming later)

7. KANYE WEST - COLLEGE DROPOUT
(comments coming later)

8. RAPHAEL SADDIQ - AS RAY RAY
(comments coming later)

9. EMBRACE - OUT OF NOTHING
(comments coming later)

10. THE KILLERS - HOT FUSS
(comments coming later)



5 that nearly made it to the big 10:

1. Nas -Streets Disciple
2. Van Hunt - Van Hunt
3. Ghostface - The Pretty Toney LP
4. The Roots - Tipping Point
5. R.Kelly - Happy People/You Saved Me

Honourable Mentions (good music released in 2004 in no particular order):

Estelle - The 18th Day
Dizzee Rascal - Showtime
Dead Prez - RBG
Secret Machines - Now Here Is Nowhere
Mos Def - The New Danger
Usher - Confessions
Brandy - Afrodisiac
Razorlight - Up All Night
The Music - Welcome To The North
Talib Kweli - Beautiful Struggle
De La Soul - The Grind Date
Kelis - Tasty
The Zutons - Who Killed The Zutons?
Anthony Hamilton - Comin' From Where I'm From
Norah Jones - Feels Like Home (SE)
RJD2 - Since I Last Spoke
Pete Rock - Soul Survivor 2
*newly added* Manic St Preachers - Lifeblood
*newly added* Interpol -Antics
*newly added* The Prodigy - Always Outnumbered, Never Outgunned

Currently reading:
The Pathology of Eurocentrism - Charles Wm. Ephraim

UHURU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Red, Black and F****** Green For Life.

|Fliteweight|

i wanna respond to the lead post but havent got enough time right now.

|Fliteweight|

one easter, many years ago

that was ugly

that was pretty nasty.

the closest thing a black kid can come to music school and training....

I know some black kids are able to get classicly trained and things like that..but..for the most part any sence of music theory we have growing up comes from the church....

Even stage presence and such..choirs and preahers and stuff do alot of dynamic types stuff on the pulpit that alot of entertainers transfer onto the stage...

Even still to this day..alot of the R&B singers coem from the church..it's just a mixture now..of the BET/MTV trends with the fundamental vocals of the church..

I hear alot of church type rhythems in Missy/Timbaland's music
I hear alot of church type chords and shit with Dilla's music
9999.9999% percent of all R&B singers out now have churchy type riffs and vocal styles
I here alot of churchy type soul in 9th Wonder's music
The Roots reminds me of a church band like a mug..especialy live
Kanye... we all know his story...
Even 50 got SOMEWHAT of a gospel song on his new shit

So the "church style" is still an influence..not syaing it a TOTAL influence but it's still influencal I think...

I just don;t like how the church tried to be influence by the MTV/BET world to "draw the young people". I never realy got into that theory...Espacialy since the church spawned alot of whats going on in BET/MTV,popular music world as far as musicly

just that it is incredibly overstated and is used as a badge of authenticity to a somewhat unrealistic degree

i swear, i'm a write a book about this replete with gods, goddesses muses & tons of stories about the Mt. Motown and all of those that lived there eating the ambrosia of champagne better known as cristal.

I don't have anything of substance to contribute to the discussion, but the ad hominem attacks on you instead of substantive attacks on your argument are dispiriting. If it's any consolation, people pull that in every forum on here.

there's much more to the original post to tackle-

but i should really, truly be in bed right now

this is madness

'Gerald and Sean Levert grew up vocalizing together in Cleveland, Ohio under the inspiration of their father Eddie Levert Sr. - lead singer with the legendary O'Jays. "I always sang, beginning when I was real little," says Gerald, the group's chief lyricist. "I never sang in church, but began by mimicking my father." Eddie encouraged his sons, letting them help out on tours and buying them recording equipment. By the time Gerald was 12, he and his father would often spend long hours singing in the basement of the family's Shaker Heights home. '


i'd read this before and in greater detail; from what i understand, though, gerald (and possibly eddie as well) was never a part of the black american church experience- and yet still sounds like he's gotta lotta gospel in his voice.

that unlike every other major R&B singer out there right now, gerald levert has never, ever, ever released an inspirational or gospel single or record. and he never claims the church as one of his influences.

so regardless of what you claim to "hear" in his voice, what AFKAP was talking about was how church is STATED as an influence in people's music, and proposing that it was/is a lie/gimmick. ashanti never claims she grew up in the church choir. the mofoes who grew up in the Church, CLAIM the Church. the ones that didn't, don't. and that's the whole fallacy of this discussion.

<-- Slicka than ya average.

"It's a war in the streets tonight
And nobody's really feelin alright
I got a blunt for my chronic
A juice for my tonic
I know now
That I'm feelin right if it goes down"
-- Nas, "War"

"perky breasts go with anything....its like the black shoe."
-- my nigga my bruh, OKP thashadow

"I've spoken to women that said they deserved men that made 6 digits, when I asked what they were bringin' to the table, they ran their hands down their malformed bodies, like that's enough."
--OKP Grand_Royal, on chickenheads

did you say 'pharisee'?

In a gospel duo:


http://www.mp3.com/eddie-levert/artists/79213/biography.html


Eddie Levert and group member Walter Williams, both Canton, OH, natives, first met in elementary school, then formed a gospel duo. While both were students at McKinley High School, they started the Triumphs with fellow students William Powell (born around 1941, died May 26, 1977), Bobby Massey, and Bill Isles. The group was signed to King Records and renamed the Mascots (not to be confused with the Swedish 1960s rock group) by label president Syd Lathan, recording four sides in 1961.


i grew up in new jersey in the 70's, but i guarandamntee you i got south carolina circa the 30's all up in my shit! & eddie levert is ONE artist out of a million that was not influenced by church (directly)

amazing!

we're talking about the environment & it's influence on ur art.

BET had Gerald Levert on one of the Celebration of Gospel specials a few years ago. It was Gerald Levert, Kelly Price, and Shirley Caesar opening the show singing "He's All Over Me". Gerald looked and sounded SO outta place. He was snapping his fingers, doing all his trademark vocal moves but it was an obvious clash. After the song, host Steve Harvey made a joke about it basically saying..."y'all know Gerald ain't have no business up there...he looked lost..."

This, I think, points to the ideas of real tangible experience in the Black Church and the authenticity that is required from those who also share and value that experience. I could have told y'all that Gerald ain't grow up singing in the church, it's obvious.

----------------------------
http://www.broadjam.com/gregsoundz

http://profiles.myspace.com/users/13379233

"...the problem is that you Americans
think poetry is democratic, that
anyone can write. It's not--it's
aristocratic"
Derek Walcott

now come w/it.

i sang in the Sunbeams (youth choir) at 1st Baptist Church of Maplewood (Missouri) for 4 yrs from age 8 to 12. i was a soloist. (i used to could sing, y'all). i attended church each and every Sunday, choir rehearsal on Thursday (used to miss "Cosby" b/c of it!), and home Bible class on Wednesday. plus there was Vacation Bible School in the summers. oh, and Sunday School every Sunday morning where-in i was quite the scholar. so my Black Church card has all its holes punched. not to mention i just paid my American Nigger dues.

so what's up?

Affy didn't say the Black church has no cred...he said white Rock artists borrow from its traditions to give their work a certain credibility. think they don't? really? he also said current Black R&B artists are quick to lean on the church to give their careers some cred. he suspects, as do i, not that folks don't sing in the churches anymore...but that the music they release is more concerned w/sounding like Star Search than sounding like Greater New Bethel Rock Full Gospel AME Church of God In Christ Fellowship Holiness Temple. Beyonce is the penultimate example of this new phenomenon. i saw the same episode of "Driven" that Fire saw and i saw Kelly, Yonce, and them other ones doing singing/dancing drills ON CAMERA as lead by Mama and Papa Knowles. to me that meant from day 1 those girls were concerned w/being stars...not w/being 'authentic'. Yonce didn't pay her dues in a choir stand...she paid them in that basement in front of that video camera. and she paid them running miles everyday while singing...that was on camera too. those basement sessions shaped her singing much more than any choir rehearsal. if she sang in church it was a sidenote...her real concern was Star Search. (oh, and btw...she made it to Star Search.)

what's really going on here?

influenced this change?

what's whitney got to do with it?

lil kids everywhere tape and Tivo music videos from their idols and study their moves. they buy the CDs and rewind and rewind trying to mimic them. just watch American (err...Australian) Idol and you can see that.

>what's whitney got to do with it?

Whitney grew up singing in the church but the music that made her famous had little to do w/that. and so now when lil girls all over the world are out there doing Whitney impressions they're not drawing from any sort of Black church experience.

and it's seemed to me that she was *the* hero of a lot of today's r&b chicks

on the flipside is mary j. blige?

did she grow up in the gospel choir tradition?

'cause when she first started, she was very rough. hell, she's flat on record. that in itself wouldn't seem to be a product of all that training that you and fire spoke on- and yet again (to me) it would seem that she *does* have a church influence in her voice.

--

on the (ugh) idol singers- it's not so much vocal runs as vocal diarrhea. eff that.

>and it's seemed to me that she was *the* hero of a lot of
>today's r&b chicks
>
>on the flipside is mary j. blige?

i dunno.

>did she grow up in the gospel choir tradition?

i don't remember hearing that.

>'cause when she first started, she was very rough. hell,
>she's flat on record. that in itself wouldn't seem to be a
>product of all that training that you and fire spoke on- and
>yet again (to me) it would seem that she *does* have a
>church influence in her voice.

the trouble is we think R&B singing in general came from church and so we assume everyone sings that way has church influence.

*goes back to reading*

hell Drew Hill started as a gospel group and became pop stars...

They when to talent shows and trained just like DC but they also had that church background..

do you take away they're church stripes...

Dru Hill is a different case than Destiny's Child. DC was formed for the explicit purpose of making it big via Star Search and the like.

it have to do with their biggest influence? there are a million groups that are formed for "stardom/blowing up" purposes, that doesn't take one drop of church influence out of their being.

your fervent defense of Yonce's church cred seems to prove Affy's point...that it's important to current audiences that their revered singers be steeped in church tradition. (which may cause them to overstate the importance of church in their backgrounds, as i suspect is the case w/Yonce)

if church wasn't her main influence what would that mean for you? would it change your opinion of her voice?

>your fervent defense of Yonce's church cred seems to prove
>Affy's point...that it's important to current audiences that
>their revered singers be steeped in church tradition.
>(which may cause them to overstate the importance of church
>in their backgrounds, as i suspect is the case w/Yonce)


i could give a fuck if you grew up in the church or not, if you're hot you're hot, but i'm not gonna sit up there & ignore the church and/or discount it's influence on blk music in america. it all can be linked to gospel.


>
>if church wasn't her main influence what would that mean for
>you? would it change your opinion of her voice?


no, i would love her voice regardless.....church just puts in her in the same box with other greatly successful black musicians.

church just puts
>in her in the same box with other greatly successful black
>musicians.

...and it's exactly what this post is about. singers use that "i grew up in church" bit BECAUSE it puts them in league w/other great Black musicians. even if it's not true. in the case of Yonce, i really don't think it is.

>church just puts
>>in her in the same box with other greatly successful black
>>musicians.
>
>...and it's exactly what this post is about. singers use
>that "i grew up in church" bit BECAUSE it puts them in
>league w/other great Black musicians.

but that's just a categorization, if she sucked we wouldn't be having this argument. the church influence is a trait that contributes to the end product result.

even if it's not
>true. in the case of Yonce, i really don't think it is.


what, that she's not great, or church didn't help her?

you think this is a "Yonce Can't Sing" post? cuz it's not.

>but that's just a categorization, if she sucked we wouldn't
>be having this argument. the church influence is a trait
>that contributes to the end product result.

ha! i don't believe it.

> even if it's not
>>true. in the case of Yonce, i really don't think it is.
>
>
>what, that she's not great, or church didn't help her?

'great'? i dunno. she's good though.

and you're basing that on the fact that she trained to be a singer outside of church? and that they didn't record (or, rather, that "driven" didn't show) her church performances? that her STYLE, not her drive, not her technical skill or meticulously honed ability to sing while doing aerobics, has nothing to do with growing up singing in youth choir and junior choir?

if that's your opinion, that she's a liar and church ain't influence her, fine. but just make it plain, doggie.

<-- Slicka than ya average.

"It's a war in the streets tonight
And nobody's really feelin alright
I got a blunt for my chronic
A juice for my tonic
I know now
That I'm feelin right if it goes down"
-- Nas, "War"

"perky breasts go with anything....its like the black shoe."
-- my nigga my bruh, OKP thashadow

"I've spoken to women that said they deserved men that made 6 digits, when I asked what they were bringin' to the table, they ran their hands down their malformed bodies, like that's enough."
--OKP Grand_Royal, on chickenheads

>and you're basing that on the fact that she trained to be a
>singer outside of church?

yup.

>that her STYLE, not her drive, not her technical skill or
>meticulously honed ability to sing while doing aerobics, has
>nothing to do with growing up singing in youth choir and
>junior choir?

her style owes more to Whitney Houston and Mariah Carey and the like than any youth or jr choir. that's what i'm saying, yes.

from what i've heard/read/seen about her background there was little time for choir in her life. it was all pretty much school & DC practice in that basement. to the point where Kelly and/or those other 2 moved into the Knowles house so they could practice!

>if that's your opinion, that she's a liar and church ain't
>influence her, fine. but just make it plain, doggie.

i wouldn't go so far as to say she's a liar b/c my mama taught me better than that © Destiny's Child. but i'm saying that i agree w/Affy's theory that she brings up church as a way of stamping her work w/some authenticity b/c that's important in today's music marketing.

admittedly, neither did i
but someone asked to have his point confirmed somewhere up there and now i get it
and i agree

& her father shouldn't have taped any of her basement sessions in order to lend credence to the fact that she grew up in church? marvin aint got no tapes in church but every bio written on him says that church was the biggest influence on his singing growing up. i'm not gonna discount what an artist says about their influence simply cuz vh1 edits a program to exclude/include a huge part of their life.

& u grew up in church but u're not a recording artist on record being interviewed & asked questions about ur influence are u?

in fact, a lot of the churches he went to didn't partake in the kind of expressive singing that is most often associated with black American Christianity (remember that his dad was mostly affiliated with a kind of obscure Afro-Judaic sect)

i'm not saying that he had NO church in him whatsoever... it's been documented that he did do some church singing. but as i've argued before, his biggest influences came from the radio... particularly "guinea crooners" like Frank, Dino, Perry Como, Nat King Cole, and also from pop bluesmen like Big Joe Turner

>in fact, a lot of the churches he went to didn't partake in
>the kind of expressive singing that is most often associated
>with black American Christianity (remember that his dad was
>mostly affiliated with a kind of obscure Afro-Judaic sect)

did the churches have singing? yes or no?


>
>i'm not saying that he had NO church in him whatsoever...
>it's been documented that he did do some church singing. but
>as i've argued before, his biggest influences came from the
>radio... particularly "guinea crooners" like Frank, Dino,
>Perry Como, Nat King Cole, and also from pop bluesmen like
>Big Joe Turner


did marvin grow up in the black church in america, yes or no? & the fact that marvin wanted to be like nat king cole or a black frank sinatra aint got SHIT on how he grew up & what he was initially influenced by.

not as we know it, anyway

unless you're also open to describing a sect such as the Black Israelites as part of "the black church"

the Black Israelites have a dynamic choir, well the current ones in Chicago anyway.
this post is GRRREAT!
*goes back to reading*

i did not know that... i find it hard to imagine!

> & her father shouldn't have taped any of her basement
>sessions in order to lend credence to the fact that she grew
>up in church?

her father wasn't just taping those basement sessions. the camera was an integral part of those sessions b/c the work they were doing was highly concerned w/being ready for video(s).

marvin aint got no tapes in church but every
>bio written on him says that church was the biggest
>influence on his singing growing up. i'm not gonna discount
>what an artist says about their influence simply cuz vh1
>edits a program to exclude/include a huge part of their
>life.

Marvin's father was a minister...that doesn't mean the church was his #1 influence.

>& u grew up in church but u're not a recording artist on
>record being interviewed & asked questions about ur
>influence are u?

oh, so now we can't talk about this issue if we're not recording artists? lol

>
>her father wasn't just taping those basement sessions. the
>camera was an integral part of those sessions b/c the work
>they were doing was highly concerned w/being ready for
>video(s).
>

how does being in front of & performing for a camera discount the church's influence on her life & singing?



>
>Marvin's father was a minister...that doesn't mean the
>church was his #1 influence.

was it or was it not his biggest influence & struggle betwixt the world & god during his whole life?


>
>>& u grew up in church but u're not a recording artist on
>>record being interviewed & asked questions about ur
>>influence are u?
>
>oh, so now we can't talk about this issue if we're not
>recording artists? lol


that's not what i'm saying, i'm saying that beyonce knowles has taken it upon her self on NUMEROUS occasions to big up church, church singing & it's influence on her music & showmanship.

>how does being in front of & performing for a camera
>discount the church's influence on her life & singing?

i'm not talking about the church's influence on her life nor am i saying she didn't attend church nor am i saying she's not a Christian. i AM saying i don't believe she's 1 of those artists whose singing craft was honed by years of experience in the Black church. why? partly b/c of the singing/dancing on camera in that basement...the way she and those others drilled themselves b/c they wanted to be ready for their tv auditions. to me it says church wasn't her main priority. if her goal all along was to get on tv (and it was) then it makes sense she'd look to other singers who're on tv for inspiration. if her goal was to get saints to praise the lord ("praise the lord, saints!") then why was there DC boot camp going down in Houston for those years? huh?

>>Marvin's father was a minister...that doesn't mean the
>>church was his #1 influence.
>
>was it or was it not his biggest influence & struggle
>betwixt the world & god during his whole life?

struggle? yes. influence? no. you already know how much he wanted to be a crooner, Fire. Perry Como has nothing to do w/Black church anything. hell, Harvey Fuqua (from the Moonglows...his doo-wop mentor) was a bigger influence on his singing than church.

>that's not what i'm saying, i'm saying that beyonce knowles
>has taken it upon her self on NUMEROUS occasions to big up
>church, church singing & it's influence on her music &
>showmanship.

b/c it's good for her career!

whoomp there it is.

there Af, you can BORROW some of my 'American Negro' points so they won't attack you on that front so much.

and i did say BORROW - LOL...

i'll return your N!gger Card to you unscathed

to your points:

>>he also said current Black R&B artists are quick to lean on the church to give their careers some cred.<<<

cred? from the church? the CHURCH has no CRED. don't nobody buy music cause of the church. people buy music for 1.) hot beats 2.) catchy breaks and 3.) a decent voice. the church isn't very relevant.

>>he suspects, as do i, not that folks don't sing in the churches anymore...but that the music they release is more concerned w/sounding like Star Search than sounding like Greater New Bethel Rock Full Gospel AME Church of God In Christ Fellowship Holiness Temple.<<<

maybe. but if it sounds like that, its prolly more because there's no creative outlet for music with gospel themes, and music for radio isn't made to suit the gospel sound.

MARY J BLIGE doesn't sound like 'the church' necessarily - until you hear her LIVE. then you know.

you can't judge folks singing until you hear it live. (which backs up my other point.)

hearing beyonce on slow songs (and live) leads me to believe she CAN sing, and that the church had a heavy influence on her singing.

>>Beyonce is the penultimate example of this new phenomenon. i saw the same episode of "Driven" that Fire saw and i saw Kelly, Yonce, and them other ones doing singing/dancing drills ON CAMERA as lead by Mama and Papa Knowles. to me that meant from day 1 those girls were concerned w/being stars...not w/being 'authentic'. Yonce didn't pay her dues in a choir stand...she paid them in that basement in front of that video camera. and she paid them running miles everyday while singing...that was on camera too. those basement sessions shaped her singing much more than any choir rehearsal. if she sang in church it was a sidenote...her real concern was Star Search. (oh, and btw...she made it to Star Search.)<<<

this is all speculation, dawg. honestly, look at the current sex doused, hoochie'd up music scene today. there is NOTHING to be gained by talking about the church, or being church affiliated. its too many mugs that sell mad records that

1.) don't big up the church

2.) spit COUNTER to the church

y'all just some cynics.

what's really going on here?


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
THE RED LIST*:
Big Mell
sometimes THEY know whats best for some of US. cause some of US aint
doing right compared to our counter parts (THEY = WHITE FOLKS)

janus
Is there any wonder why I hang out with mostly white or hispanic folks?
they arent as judgemental and dont have as many sexual hangups as black folk.

suave_bro
u know these muthafuckas are quick to run up on a black woman to ask her
to do some shit like this, because they know a black woman would be quick
to say yes to some shit like this...

Juxtarose (you know what i like about white guys?" they don't think having
a house, job and a car and no criminal record means they really have some
thing going on...)

* read up on IDA B. WELLS
******************************************************
OKP SLANGTIONARY

PPP = POINTLESS POAST, POTNAH
NGGCOT = NOTHING GOOD CAN COME OF THIS
MANDATE = STOP HATING AND SHOW SOMEBODY THAT LOOKS BETTER


******************************************************
** = all statements made about the physical traits of females are based
on Torez as a Single man not the CURRENT married Torez

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

meaning they're about equally important to (some) artists of each genre and they're about equally true. hip-hop artists brag about jail time, gang affiliations, and crime like R&B singers brag about doing time in church choirs. that's the crux of this post. anything else you say that has nothing to do w/that is extra.

please tell me that makes sense. you can agree or not agree w/the assertion...but do you get the assertion?

is it really??
somebody leff the gate wide the fuck open on this one. shit

<- Make We Puff It Inna Communion © Buju Banton

If his status ain’t hood I aint checking for him
better be street if he looking at me I need a soldier
and he’s gotta stand up for me
known to carry big things if you know what I mean

If his status ain’t hood I ain’t checking for him
Better be street if he looking at me
I need a soldier and he’s gotta stand up for me
Gotta know to get dough and he better be street...u mad?


feed ur voyuerism: read my blog.

BITE MY TONGUE FOR NO ONE, CALL ME EVIL...OR UNBELIEVABLE

ppl got their feelings hurt b/c they think Af is attacking the Black church and/or Yonce.

I was itching to write that, but I can't post from work.

this argument got started because i said that joss' hand wave during singing can be directly LINKED to the black church culture in america & that she copied it while looking at african american singers, then i said that beyonce's was more "real" cuz she grew up seeing/mimicking it from a young age instead of seeing it one day while watching an aretha tape & thinking "hey i need to do that to be more soulful/black"....afkap went on to say that beyonce wasn't influenced performance wise by the church, but what instead influenced by mariah carey & star search. in his original post he STARTED OUT with my praise on the black church and BEYONCES artistry as being "wrong"....what he should've done is not used my fucking name as the go to person as being fucking wrong. i don't appreciate that shit & yes i'm gonna be fucking defensive when someone that didn't grow up in america NOR in a black church tries to discount it's legacy /influence...whether they believe it to be true or not. i ahve never fucking ever throughout the course of these dialogues EVER FUCKING stated that church cred = r&b cred. if u or any of these other posters can state that point during my argument where i did that, then i digress.

otherwise, everybody leave me thee fuck alone.

>this argument got started because i said that joss' hand
>wave during singing can be directly LINKED to the black
>church culture in america & that she copied it while looking
>at african american singers, then i said that beyonce's was
>more "real" cuz she grew up seeing/mimicking it from a young
>age instead of seeing it one day while watching an aretha
>tape & thinking "hey i need to do that to be more
>soulful/black"....afkap went on to say that beyonce wasn't
>influenced performance wise by the church, but what instead
>influenced by mariah carey & star search.

okay. but we're talking about this post. now, in the present...not whatever brought us to this post.

in his original
>post he STARTED OUT with my praise on the black church and
>BEYONCES artistry as being "wrong"....what he should've done
>is not used my fucking name as the go to person as being
>fucking wrong.

lol

i don't appreciate that shit & yes i'm
>gonna be fucking defensive when someone that didn't grow up
>in america NOR in a black church tries to discount it's
>legacy /influence...

i still don't see where you're getting that from. it's not in the post...you must be drawing it from something between you and Af.

>i ahve never fucking ever throughout the course of
>these dialogues EVER FUCKING stated that church cred = r&b
>cred.

i know. but i swear that's what the post is about. we should ask Af...he wrote it. it's pretty clear to me though.

if u or any of these other posters can state that
>point during my argument where i did that, then i digress.

you didn't..but you should've b/c that's what the post is about....

>otherwise, everybody leave me thee fuck alone.

it's Stevie Wonder Month.

Smile Please:

A smiling face is on earth like star
A frown can't bring out the beauty that you are
Love within and you'll begin smiling...
There're brighter days ahead

Don't mess your face up with better tears
'Cause life is gonna be what it is
It's okay, please don't delay from smiling...
There're brighter days ahead

Bum
Bum bum di ti bum
Bum bum di ti bum
Bum bum di ti bum
di ti bum
Bum bum di ti bum
Bum bum di ti bum
Bum bum di ti bum

A smiling face you don't have to see
'Cause it's as joyful as a Christmas tree
Love within and you'll begin smiling...
There're brighter days ahead

Love's not competing it's on your side
You're in life picture so why must you cry
So for a friend please begin to smile - Please
There're brighter days ahead

Bum
Bum bum di ti bum
Bum bum di ti bum
Bum bum di ti bum

Please smile for me

Bum
Bum bum di ti bum
Bum bum di ti bum
Bum bum di ti bum

Please smile for me

Bum - smile
Bum
Bum bum di ti bum
Bum bum di ti bum
Bum bum di ti bum

grew up in two places the church and the streets...

and when you have lived something dog you'll recognize it when you see it..(real recognize real)

I grew up AME and have been to some of the most countrified churches..(where the piano player is also the drummer and she is using her feet for drums.. grandma got the dried up jheri curl in the front pew )

and they're are polished singers and rough singers in the church.. matter of fact some churches teach vocal lessons inorder to polish their chiors.. most chiors have a mixture of both..

with beyonce & joss's music I rarely hear the passion or energy from the church in their music..

I do hear it from DC especailly when they are live..
even more so when they are singing gospel ...

the point is that yonce got IT and it comes out of her especially when she is singing live..

with joss it just seems forced and unauthentic.. like even if I were to close my eyes and just listen it would sound the same way..

both Joss and Beyonce have them..

from my perspective...Beyonce has a lot more power and control over her voice....her voice is more mature and her soul comes across as more natural than Joss....

Joss is good, but her voice still sounds a bit like a young girl who is riffing to make it sound like she's got soul....B' is a woman who can blow....period. On record she doesn't show it as much ...but live it's right there for you.

if you like, we can change Joss's name to "Teena Marie" and Beyonce's name to "Michael Jackson" and the basic issue would not change

this momentus event

_____________________________

BREAKBEAT PRODUCTIONS (BBP) PRESENTS: MARLEY RIDDIM E.P

COMING SOON ON AWAKENING RECORDINGS....(2nd QUARTER 2005)

Uh oh they gave us a soundclick page....
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/7/breakbeatproductions.htm

How beautiful is Jill Scott? The answer: Unfathomable.

"If I dont like it I dont like/it dont mean that im hating" - Common

Top 10 albums I heard from 2004:



**1. KEANE - HOPES AND FEARS**
(comments coming later)

2. JILL SCOTT - BEAUTIFULLY HUMAN
(comments coming later)

3. KLASHNEKOFF - THE SAGAS OF....
(comments coming later)

4. TEEDRA MOSES - COMPLEX SIMPLICITY
(comments coming later)

5. ASH - MELTDOWN
(comments coming later)

6. MURS - MURS 3:16 THE 9TH EDITION
(comments coming later)

7. KANYE WEST - COLLEGE DROPOUT
(comments coming later)

8. RAPHAEL SADDIQ - AS RAY RAY
(comments coming later)

9. EMBRACE - OUT OF NOTHING
(comments coming later)

10. THE KILLERS - HOT FUSS
(comments coming later)



5 that nearly made it to the big 10:

1. Nas -Streets Disciple
2. Van Hunt - Van Hunt
3. Ghostface - The Pretty Toney LP
4. The Roots - Tipping Point
5. R.Kelly - Happy People/You Saved Me

Honourable Mentions (good music released in 2004 in no particular order):

Estelle - The 18th Day
Dizzee Rascal - Showtime
Dead Prez - RBG
Secret Machines - Now Here Is Nowhere
Mos Def - The New Danger
Usher - Confessions
Brandy - Afrodisiac
Razorlight - Up All Night
The Music - Welcome To The North
Talib Kweli - Beautiful Struggle
De La Soul - The Grind Date
Kelis - Tasty
The Zutons - Who Killed The Zutons?
Anthony Hamilton - Comin' From Where I'm From
Norah Jones - Feels Like Home (SE)
RJD2 - Since I Last Spoke
Pete Rock - Soul Survivor 2
*newly added* Manic St Preachers - Lifeblood
*newly added* Interpol -Antics
*newly added* The Prodigy - Always Outnumbered, Never Outgunned

Currently reading:
The Pathology of Eurocentrism - Charles Wm. Ephraim

UHURU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Red, Black and F****** Green For Life.

characterize the changes in Black music throughout the years as being varying degrees of Black folks trying to stay ahead of Whitey....way over simplification.

this whole rockist thing is a bit silly....I mean, Black culture regarding music is certainly sufficient enough to look at on it's own merit rather than trying to tie it to the macinations of Whitey, as you say.....for example, the bee-bop era was about more than just doing something that Whitey wouldn't understand....there is a larger general sociological argument one could make that would include this...but on the grassroots level so to speak, what made Charlie Parker flip things the way he did was about way more than him sitting at home trying to figure out ways to fool White folks...

if rockist is about finding authenticity...I would suggest todays modern mainstream Black music makers to be rockist because they are certainly not staying ahead of Whitey today....the lack of authenticity in mainstream Black music is killing it right now....

Whites have always been able to utilize what Blacks do in music to benefit them more than it benefits Blacks....unfortunately Black people have taken consumerism to such great heights, that they will disregard their own greatness in an effort to stay in tune with whatever the lastest form of popular culture White corporate America pimps out to them....Keeping it real as they say...but making a life-less, soul-less and many times quality-less mainstream...

Beyounce is a bad example. She's is definitely a Pop singer. I really don't detect any "Soul" stylings in her singing. That should have been painfully clear at this weekends award show.

>Keeping Ahead of Whitey culminated in Soul music, which drew
>its inspiration from the Black Church. If you wanted to Keep
>Ahead of Whitey, you couldn’t do much better than to look
>inward to the Church, a place that was so unremittingly “us”
>and which traditionally held much fascination and fear in
>the white imagination.
>
>The Church was a place that was at the center of the black
>community, and its music was fairly unique, rejecting most
>of the stylings of American commercial music… of course, it
>wasn’t long before Whitey discovered that once you could
>scrub the music clean of some of the more unsettling
>elements of the Church such as the spirit possession and the
>angry shouting (whites tend to interpret any instance where
>blacks raise their voices as “angry”… go figger), they had
>some pretty cool sounds.

I'm with you, up until this point...

>As a result, the Church became the new center of
>authenticity in American music. We learned that black
>singers were viewed as more “real” if we could believe that
>they were plucked out of the choir of the Bethel AME in East
>Hamhock, Alabama and that they were in essence untainted by
>commercialism. At the same time, white singers found that
>they were bestowed with instant authenticity and gravitas
>when they backed their songs with a bunch of fat black
>gospel singers in robes (this gimmick eventually filtered
>back to black musicians, as exemplified best by Robert
>Kelly… but we’ll get back to that later)

Not liking this very much.

>Eventually, the idea of black church singing became just
>another easily replicable “authenticity”-bestowing gimmick
>that could be reduced to a bunch of overdramatic riffs,
>melismas and vibratos.

Not to me.

>The whole “i grew up singing in the Church” became a part of
>the standard credibility card in the utility belt of any
>black soul/R&B singer worth their salt. But i contend that
>it’s a load of bullshit.
>
>I don’t doubt that these singers actually grew up going to
>church, or that they might have even sung in church, but the
>fact is that at this point in time the majority of black
>singers are more influenced by radio/MTV/BET than any kind
>of “pure” church tradition. In other words, they learn to
>sing “black” the same way their authenticity-seeking white
>peers do.

We definitely part ways here. See Fantasia...

>Let’s take Beyonce. Now, i know that she is a devout
>Christian and probably “grew up in the church” (whatever the
>fuck that means nowadays) but i’ve read/watched a grip of
>biographical material on her and i haven’t seen anything
>that indicates the Church played any central role in the
>formation of her musical identity.

Depends on who did the stories. White folks, when they tell our story, normally forget to mention the church. See Ray for an example.

and just concentrate on the point.

i think you DO agree with me, Wendell...

because I think your generalization, as most are, are wrong.

I agree Yonce came up on the pageant circuit, so yes on her. But I don't even think that she tries to Soul sing in the first place. She's a Pop singer and I'm not sure if she will ever be anything more than that.

I've never listened to Joss, but I know she's manufactored.

I do think mainstream singing has made it's way into the Church. I witnessed this at a funeral a few months ago where this 14 year old tried to Yonce her way through a spiritual. It was painfully bad, despite the fact that the kid had a nice voice. But I truely believe all that changes when the singer learns the meaning of the song. This kid didn't believe what she was singing, maybe because the song about "goin home" is not really relevant to an invincible teen. I'm willing to bet that this same song has a different level of meaning after her faith is tested with the passing of a close family member though.

Soul singing is a few things, but most importantly it's selling whatever you are singing. Maybe Yonce hasn't had the material to allow/make her sell a song properly, who knows???

>Depends on who did the stories. White folks, when they tell
>our story, normally forget to mention the church. See Ray
>for an example.

even when it doesn't exist...

As they never forget to mention Poverty
even if it doesn't exist
______________________________

*TWINNING*

Bongo???

in any black musician biography even if said black musician never sang in church

same thing with "poverty".


______________________________

*TWINNING*

Beyonce, herself, in either some paper or visual media that she didn't really grow up singing in the church.

I also feel that even with all Be-Be's vocal training, wherever it came from, when I hear her songs, I don't get much feeling from it--like she truly meant what she said. I may shake my butt a little or even sing to the songs-but I don't really get anything else from it. It's so on-the-surface to me, y'know.

I can hear more feeling come from Joss Stone when she's singing a song, even if she didn't mean those lyrics she sang, than I can from Beyonce.

always glad to see you round here!

not that other attention grabbing bullshit.

i have always disagreed with people who think to be a good singer you have to get your skills in church first. then you can go on to sing. a person with a good singing voice can practice in the bathroom all the time and become a good to excellent singer. that's my 2 cents.


i'm playin: 1. roberta flack-vol.1(my own compilation) 2. anita baker-the songstress 3. patrice rushen-now 4. nnenna freelon-self-titled 5. ernie isley-high wire 6. en vogue-born to sing 7. donald brown-sources of inspiration


BLACK WOMEN RULE!

CASSETTES ARE THE TRUTH! VINYL ROCKS! CD'S MAKE GREAT DECORATIONS!

MY FAB 4 PRODUCERS!: bernadette cooper(www.klymaxx.org), la la, angela winbush, and lesette wilson

ROBERTA FLACK is da BOMB! www.robertaflack.com

i love music-THE MIGHTY O'JAYS

nobody makes love to music the way Barry White does. Nobody.-BARRY WHITE

i'll rock ya blind folded/betta yet with no mic/hype it accapella/make ya dee jay go on strike.-MC LYTE( www.mc-lyte.com )

THE GREATEST ALBUM IN THE UNIVERSE: SLAVE-STONE JAM

LIONEL RICHIE IS MY FAVORITE MUSICIAN!

RICK JAMES WAS A MUSICAL GENIUS!

my love for the art(MUSIC) is what drives me-AALIYAH

NEO SOUL DOESN'T EXIST-fire

THELMA from GOODTIMES is right hur: www.bstanis.com

jawjuh man
star being
lady sun's favorite

http://www.teenmusic.com/d.asp?r=48247

TeenHollywood.com: Your new film 'The Fighting Temptations' is all about gospel music. How important is the church and gospel in your life?

advertisement (story continues below)


Beyonce: I grew up in church and I really related because I know how church people can be sometimes. I grew up around very positive women. My mother owned a hair salon and I worked there, so I grew up around all these women, and they were strong. A lot were single mothers, and so I liked playing Lilly in the film. She doesn't have a perfect life, she's a single mother too with a lot of problems, and she's very earthy and very energetic.



___________________________________________________________

http://top40.about.com/od/artistsaf/p/beyonceprofile.htm

As a very young girl, she dominated the church choir, shining as its top singer. Her father, Matthew Knowles, took an active hand in shaping her career, acting as her manager and coach.


_________________________________________________________

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/allnews/content_objectid=13153771_method=full_siteid=50143_headline=-GOD-S-GIFT-TO-BEYONCE-name_page.html

GOD'S GIFT TO BEYONCE Jul 8 2003


How this devout girl from Texas grew up to become one of the world's hottest stars .. Hallelujah!

From Tanith Carey Us Editor In New York


IF Beyonce Knowles is to be believed, it's not just Prince Charles and his sons who are big fans.

The singer, who wowed Charles by wearing red leather hotpants on Sunday, says that she has God to thank for everything, from her No.1 single to her "bootylicious" rear.

A devout Methodist, who calls everything a blessing and peppers her speech with Hallelujahs, Beyonce believes God is more relaxed about skin-tight outfits than we might previously have been led to believe.

In fact, the Destiny's Child singer sees no contradiction between her sensual appearance and her religious beliefs.

"I honestly believe He wants people to celebrate their bodies - as long as you don't compromise your Christianity in the process," says the 21-year-old star from Houston, Texas, who has rapidly amassed a £12million fortune.

Many things may have crossed the minds of those who saw Beyonce perform at the Party In The Park in London on the weekend... but it would be fair to say that religion wouldn't be one of them. According to Charles, Prince William is among those smitten by the star, whose first solo album, Dangerously In Love, is also No1.

As she stole the show in Hyde Park, it was clear that since her band began its sabbatical last year Beyonce has staged a sexual reinvention not seen since Kylie Minogue gave up being the girl next door.

But the singer, who prays every day, demurs when asked if her image is more provocative.

"I'm older now," she says. "I wouldn't say it's a little more sexy, it's just a little more different.

"God is the main person in my life and I would never do anything to offend Him. Because the three of us in the band are open about our faith, it has been easy for people to criticise.

"They say it is hypocritical to wear sexy clothes then sing about God but it's not like that at all."

Judging by her success, it might be a good idea for Britney and J-Lo to get on their knees to pray, too.

Beyonce is the latest diva on the block - and she is outshining them on every front.




__________________________________________________________
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2004-02/11/content_305045.htm


Born in 1981 to a loving family in Houston, Texas, Beyonce showed a gift for music before she could even talk. As a young girl, she would drown out everyone, including the church choir, on Sundays at church. Every weekend, she also took opera classes, in which she was classically trained.


do u want me to post the other 149, 996 results or will this do?

>>they learn to sing “black” the same way their authenticity-seeking white peers do.<<<

doesn't apply to her. if she 'domintated the choir' it stands to reason that she learned to sing 'black' in said choir.

The only EVIDENCE you seem to have that she doesn't 'sing black' is that they don't sound like PURE GOSPEL singers to you. But that's on YOU.

All the evidence points to the idea that she learned how to 'sing black' in the choir, and that its in her repetoire. if she turns it down for her mainstream music, it doesn't mean that other folks can't hear the influence. and when you hear her LIVE, it comes out even more and confirms what i already knew.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
THE RED LIST*:
Big Mell
sometimes THEY know whats best for some of US. cause some of US aint
doing right compared to our counter parts (THEY = WHITE FOLKS)

janus
Is there any wonder why I hang out with mostly white or hispanic folks?
they arent as judgemental and dont have as many sexual hangups as black folk.

suave_bro
u know these muthafuckas are quick to run up on a black woman to ask her
to do some shit like this, because they know a black woman would be quick
to say yes to some shit like this...

Juxtarose (you know what i like about white guys?" they don't think having
a house, job and a car and no criminal record means they really have some
thing going on...)

* read up on IDA B. WELLS
******************************************************
OKP SLANGTIONARY

PPP = POINTLESS POAST, POTNAH
NGGCOT = NOTHING GOOD CAN COME OF THIS
MANDATE = STOP HATING AND SHOW SOMEBODY THAT LOOKS BETTER


******************************************************
** = all statements made about the physical traits of females are based
on Torez as a Single man not the CURRENT married Torez

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

than actually serves to PROVE my point rather than refute it

that she didn't do what the 'pr' claims she did.

saying 'your honor, that evidence is clearly bullshit' prolly wouldn't go over in court, dawg.

just sayin'

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
THE RED LIST*:
Big Mell
sometimes THEY know whats best for some of US. cause some of US aint
doing right compared to our counter parts (THEY = WHITE FOLKS)

janus
Is there any wonder why I hang out with mostly white or hispanic folks?
they arent as judgemental and dont have as many sexual hangups as black folk.

suave_bro
u know these muthafuckas are quick to run up on a black woman to ask her
to do some shit like this, because they know a black woman would be quick
to say yes to some shit like this...

Juxtarose (you know what i like about white guys?" they don't think having
a house, job and a car and no criminal record means they really have some
thing going on...)

* read up on IDA B. WELLS
******************************************************
OKP SLANGTIONARY

PPP = POINTLESS POAST, POTNAH
NGGCOT = NOTHING GOOD CAN COME OF THIS
MANDATE = STOP HATING AND SHOW SOMEBODY THAT LOOKS BETTER


******************************************************
** = all statements made about the physical traits of females are based
on Torez as a Single man not the CURRENT married Torez

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

he's not saying its bullshit
he's saying it doesnt mean what it should mainly for the fact its something that's been hyped up and used by fite wolks in r&b to get their 'cred' and respect

ask yourself why you are arguing for him to admit he's wrong and that yonce (who isnt even the point of the post) is church bred...did it matter back then w/ marvin? isaac? even those who predated them? NO. they just had it. shit u can argue most black singers 'have it' (whatever it is-soul?) regardless of where 'it' was honed.

point is, 'it' being the church isnt really saying much...considering who has had to use it to get their props, and considering how yall are waging a pogrom on the thread for the shit, and for the fact that as secularized and NOT-church the content of today's music is, folks still fall back on the church to justify their talent

& i don't appreciate him fucking lying on me

now that u know the point of what he's saying

do u agree or no
?

he has some "valid" points, but to discount the black church's influence on modern r&b is imprudent & this post....., which could've been great aint nothing but half cocked and an attack against me.

i'm not doing this anymore.

he's not saying the church's influence is bullshit (or hey maybe he is...thats not what i gathered)...at this point its just a pass folks with a handicap (i.e. not black) use to get by in but we (meaning black folks) have taken this as some sort of necessary component for a good soul singer when 'we' would have been just as accepting of their music and talent if they werent from the church.

if the yonce WASNT from the church, she'd still be good, right?

>he's not saying the church's influence is bullshit (or hey
>maybe he is...thats not what i gathered)...at this point its
>just a pass folks with a handicap (i.e. not black) use to
>get by in but we (meaning black folks) have taken this as
>some sort of necessary component for a good soul singer when
>'we' would have been just as accepting of their music and
>talent if they werent from the church.
>
>if the yonce WASNT from the church, she'd still be good,
>right?

yes. i never said she wouldnt

that was his point. we never had to mystify or give a reason or origin to what we did musically until other people wanted to do our music too. and not only did we not reject the mystification (or whatever you want to call it), we now use it ourselves as a gauge for why a musician is good/bad

this
>post....., which could've been great aint nothing but half
>cocked and an attack against me.

too funny

he just used one thing you said as the basis for his argument. so what?

it's been clear from jump street that only a handful of us in this post can address it w/out catching the spirit.


|Fliteweight|

Singer: "I started in the church."

Me: "Yeah--and you sucked THERE, TOO."

How many times have you heard someone say that they grew up singing in the church and heard other folks be impressed?? I actually did grow up in the church and some of the most singingest people couldn't carry a tune in a bucket. Their voices were horrible.

Also remember this...if you grew up in the church, you know good and well that the old folks would "Amen" *ANYONE* who even stood up and tried to sing, no matter how bad they were. The old folks didn't care as long as you were uplifting the Lord with your voice.

Singing in Church does not equal talent or even soul.

Peace,

*** MARBLES ***

knowing that i've aroused such strong emotions in you and others

this post is a success. make sure it's archived!

lol

www.fwmj.com | www.fwmj.com/word | www.fwmj.com/x | www.ohsonappy.com

"i think you know my homey, too... i.d.? he says you're a cool motherfucker - contrary to whatever else i hear." - Quidom

0. Technical ie "white singing" vs. Chu'uch Sanging

1. Rockism
2. Marketers/Critics today are using Rockism in a new context, connecting Black Pop singers with the Black Churck

Point of contention
- Yonce learned to sing in the church
- Yonce was raised to be the next winner on Star Search

Evidence
- Yonce says she sang in the church - against Affy
- Destiny's Child homemade video tapes - for Affy

Argument Against Afkap
- He's not black American enough to even comment
- He's not black American enough to know what to comment on to prove his point
- more "ad hominem"/standing arguments

Compromise on Afkap's part - "I never said NO influence"

SoWhat steps in for Afkap, since he's got the right pedigree
- turns fire's support against her - evidence of how much koolaid has been drank
- fire backpedals on her argument to address Sowhat, and focuses on the fact that Vh-1's driven did not show Yonce in the church - suggesting that if they did - Younce would have church cred

Question becomes, which dominated more of Yonce's musical education, Singing in the Church or Singing for Star Search?

Interesting sidelines
- Marvin Gaye has Church - But did not grow up in the Black Church being referred to in this thread
- Levert - Learned to sing by watching his father, not the church. But Father was a Gospel man.
- Numerous other R&B acts, whom folks "hear church in".
- Warren - does Warren
- Wendell - sorta agrees with Afkap, but not sure
- Gumdrops and Bongo - 2 avid contributors are basically sidelined because they have less nigger cred than Afkap. Though they get to put in a few quips

__________________________

As for my take
- real life cred - street cred in hip hop, church cred in R&B.

Does it make a difference to sales? To the quality of the art?

- Underlying this whole concept, to me at least, is the idea that black people are merely spiritual beings, and that there is little if any thought/logic that goes into our art. I.E, we only have souls and not brains, relegating black people to mere savages. The only way we can create art is by channelling these raw emotions, brought on By God, or by "the streets".

all this talk of polish vs unpolish....

Yet seemingly there was a post about Al Green I believe, in which folks wanted to dissect his "soulful" performance as being calculated, so calculated, that so called "real niggas" really couldn't tell the difference. (but that one trailed off into some crap about performance, and I would say "channelling")

- The average public, even a specialized group like this, doesn't do well with abstract ideas. This post really isn't about Beyonce or Joss Stone, yet that's all that people can seem to talk about.

Can this topic be discussed w.o focusing one a handful of artists? I can understand the need to make things concrete, to see if the theory holds, but seemingly no one can think about this in terms of 20-30 artists.

Interesting thread though.

one
k. orr

>- Underlying this whole concept, to me at least, is the idea
>that black people are merely spiritual beings, and that
>there is little if any thought/logic that goes into our art.
> I.E, we only have souls and not brains, relegating black
>people to mere savages. The only way we can create art is
>by channelling these raw emotions, brought on By God, or by
>"the streets".

______________________________

*TWINNING*

there is this idea that we have 'something' that makes us make music how we do..which again, we take from those who have created this idea and used it as a marker for what is credible in our own music

do not start that post tomorrow - I gotta be out the whole day -I dont want the scraps....
_____________________________

BREAKBEAT PRODUCTIONS (BBP) PRESENTS: MARLEY RIDDIM E.P

COMING SOON ON AWAKENING RECORDINGS....(2nd QUARTER 2005)

Uh oh they gave us a soundclick page....
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/7/breakbeatproductions.htm

How beautiful is Jill Scott? The answer: Unfathomable.

"If I dont like it I dont like/it dont mean that im hating" - Common

Top 10 albums I heard from 2004:



**1. KEANE - HOPES AND FEARS**
(comments coming later)

2. JILL SCOTT - BEAUTIFULLY HUMAN
(comments coming later)

3. KLASHNEKOFF - THE SAGAS OF....
(comments coming later)

4. TEEDRA MOSES - COMPLEX SIMPLICITY
(comments coming later)

5. ASH - MELTDOWN
(comments coming later)

6. MURS - MURS 3:16 THE 9TH EDITION
(comments coming later)

7. KANYE WEST - COLLEGE DROPOUT
(comments coming later)

8. RAPHAEL SADDIQ - AS RAY RAY
(comments coming later)

9. EMBRACE - OUT OF NOTHING
(comments coming later)

10. THE KILLERS - HOT FUSS
(comments coming later)



5 that nearly made it to the big 10:

1. Nas -Streets Disciple
2. Van Hunt - Van Hunt
3. Ghostface - The Pretty Toney LP
4. The Roots - Tipping Point
5. R.Kelly - Happy People/You Saved Me

Honourable Mentions (good music released in 2004 in no particular order):

Estelle - The 18th Day
Dizzee Rascal - Showtime
Dead Prez - RBG
Secret Machines - Now Here Is Nowhere
Mos Def - The New Danger
Usher - Confessions
Brandy - Afrodisiac
Razorlight - Up All Night
The Music - Welcome To The North
Talib Kweli - Beautiful Struggle
De La Soul - The Grind Date
Kelis - Tasty
The Zutons - Who Killed The Zutons?
Anthony Hamilton - Comin' From Where I'm From
Norah Jones - Feels Like Home (SE)
RJD2 - Since I Last Spoke
Pete Rock - Soul Survivor 2
*newly added* Manic St Preachers - Lifeblood
*newly added* Interpol -Antics
*newly added* The Prodigy - Always Outnumbered, Never Outgunned

Currently reading:
The Pathology of Eurocentrism - Charles Wm. Ephraim

UHURU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Red, Black and F****** Green For Life.

>As for my take
>- real life cred - street cred in hip hop, church cred in
>R&B.
>
>Does it make a difference to sales? To the quality of the
>art?

sales?...in hip-hop it seems to. i highly doubt so many of us would've taken to NWA if we knew where Dre and Cube grew up for real. in R&B, not so much...and i say that b/c there aren't concerted efforts to disprove anyone's church cred the way some go out of their way to discredit rappers (see: Jay-Z & Prodigy, 50 & Ja Rule).

quality...emphatic 'no' on both counts.

>- Underlying this whole concept, to me at least, is the idea
>that black people are merely spiritual beings, and that
>there is little if any thought/logic that goes into our art.
> I.E, we only have souls and not brains, relegating black
>people to mere savages. The only way we can create art is
>by channelling these raw emotions, brought on By God, or by
>"the streets".

i agree completely.

>all this talk of polish vs unpolish....
>
>Yet seemingly there was a post about Al Green I believe, in
>which folks wanted to dissect his "soulful" performance as
>being calculated, so calculated, that so called "real
>niggas" really couldn't tell the difference. (but that one
>trailed off into some crap about performance, and I would
>say "channelling")

i remember that 1. it was good.

>- The average public, even a specialized group like this,
>doesn't do well with abstract ideas. This post really isn't
>about Beyonce or Joss Stone, yet that's all that people can
>seem to talk about.

...yeah.

>Can this topic be discussed w.o focusing one a handful of
>artists? I can understand the need to make things concrete,
>to see if the theory holds, but seemingly no one can think
>about this in terms of 20-30 artists.

i'm at the point where i immediately disbelieve artists who talk about their church upbringing just like i disbelieve those who claim to have been gangstas (i see you, Ray J). to me it's all hype and it seems folks are trying to latch onto the cred bestowed upon legends from the past (i hear you, Aretha)...Fire even said Yonce's church roots place her in the company of Black music legends. since we live in a time where artists are so uber-aware of the bizz i just can't believe media kit material anymore.

can we (the Lesson) talk about this church cred phenomenon? i hope so.

>can we (the Lesson) talk about this church cred phenomenon?
>i hope so.

clearly we (not me an' you per se, but 'we') can't.


|Fliteweight|

*conts. readin*

Scotland !
______________________________

*TWINNING*

.

"I don’t doubt that these singers actually grew up going to church, or that they might have even sung in church, but the fact is that at this point in time the majority of black singers are more influenced by radio/MTV/BET than any kind of “pure” church tradition. In other words, they learn to sing “black” the same way their authenticity-seeking white peers do."

Just replace "church" with "streets" and there you go. I agree with AFKAP on most of these points by the way. I just don't need Beyonce to have any sort of "pass" to know she is a better signer than Joss Stone. But really it's just all a matter of taste.

First off I have to agree with AFKAP concerning one particular point. The whole "I grew up in church" mantra has become more of a PR tactic rather than a 100% true statement. It has at times become sickening and makes me not want to mention my own church background to avoid being lumped in that category. Those of us who really grew up in the culture can spot a faker in a heartbeat and there are a number of Black singers out there who obviously have very little if any tangible church training.

With that said I think it is important to look at how church training is seen/heard in any singer today who's background is credible. At the point that most young singers encounter Gospel music today we have to keep in mind the changes that the music has gone through from the 80's to now. One constant in Gospel music has always been its interaction or flirtation with secular music. This dates back to Thomas Dorsey (of course), can be heard in the music of James Cleveland (rewriting Gladys Knight and The Pips hit, "The Best Thing That Ever Happened" for example), and the careers of The Hawkins Family or Andrae Crouch. With the success of the Hawkins' and Crouch, came the emergence of "Contemporary Gospel" in the late 70s/80s. The most influential group to emerge (IMO) were The Winans. What we saw and heard in their music was a continuation of what Hawkins and Crouch had started as well as cited influences like Rance Allen. As the musical mind behind The Winans, Marvin Winans displayed a new vocal style that referenced the classic church sound when needed but also showed us he had been exposed to a wide body of Black and other types of secular music---this became even more evident in the career of his brother Bebe who had a classic old school church upbringing but his voice lacks most if not all of the typical "Gospel" sound. The early 80s also brought us the ultimate female Gospel group, The Clark Sisters. When I think about runs, melisma, and "crazy" vibrato, I think about Twinkie, Karen, Dorinda, and Jacque. I place these woman at the root of any and all fascination and the ultimate popularization of runs (Daryl Coley should be somewhere in there too). Yet another group that MUST be mentioned is Commissioned. These brothers sought to bring an even "edgier" sound to "Contemporary Gospel" and continued to challenge the idea of what Black Gospel is or should be.

Much of the so-called church or Gospel sound that we hear today in modern-R&B is largely due to the music of The Clark Sisters and Commissioned (IMO). I know some of you want to give Kim Burrell some credit here but I'm strictly talking bout roots---she ain't no pioneer. In conjuction with the Contemporary Gospel influence we have a generation that has grown up with MTV/BET. Naturally this adds a new dimension to today's sound and oftentimes masks the church's influence however it should not in anyway lead the listener to question the credibility of that influence. A perfect example of how the overt and covert ways "the church" can show up in modern R&B is the music of Boys II Men and Jodeci. Given the smooth doo-wop harmonies and Pop success of BIIM one would immediately say there was no church influence however Wanya's vocals alone show us the classic use of "runs" for effect an emotion that have no other reference point except the church. Overall I think BIIM's music masks the church influence. On the opposite side of the coin is Jodeci with lead singer K-Ci. His voice was obviously "church" but could have easily been developed from listening to Blues records and a lot of Bobby Womack. K-Ci also went as far as biting Commissioned on one of Jodeci's songs singing the line "My arms are open wide, and I don't have to cry..." a direct reference to Commissioned's "Running Back To You". While Jodeci's church influence was obvious to many, to others their overtly sexual lyrics and "thug" image led some to attribute their sound/style to the streets rather than the pews.

These are just a few thoughts...I'm really feeling this post BTW...

----------------------------
http://www.broadjam.com/gregsoundz

http://profiles.myspace.com/users/13379233

"...the problem is that you Americans
think poetry is democratic, that
anyone can write. It's not--it's
aristocratic"
Derek Walcott

the exchanges are priceless

LOL at afkap not being nigger enough

Or equally plausibly, a counter-point suggested listening list from the folks who disagree...

It seems to me the point should be fairly easily proved or disproved aurally.

(That said, I have Melanie's 'Candles In the Rain' on in my car now - featuring the Edwin Hawkins Singers for gauranteed authenticity!)

fantasias whole album
ruben studdards albums
jaheims albums
all kci& jojo albums
all dru hill albums
all faith evans albums
niveas music
r kelly all day
brandy brandy brandy

is that there is nothing to build a valid comparison on.

I think a chronology of sorts - to present listeners with the continuum you feel exists - would be more to the point than a random list of current singers you feel exhibit the Church in their music.

- the 1st few paragraphs are about folks like Eric Clapton, Bruce Springsteen, Bob Dylan, Nirvana, and Tom Petty. i'm not familiar enough w/their stuff to make recommendations...especially not here!

- then comes Keeping Ahead of Whitey: Bebop..."Groovin High", Dizzy G; Soul..."This Little Girl of Mine", Ray Charles

- Whitey catches up: "Please Mr. Postman", The Beatles; "Tutti Frutti", Pat Boone; "You Can't Always Get What You Want", Rolling Stones; "I Want To Know What Love Is", Foreigner (?)

- and Blacks co-opt the trend too: "I Wish" "I Believe.."& "Gotham City", R Kelly.

- Black church singing becomes something anyone can do: "Impossible", Christina Aguilera

- Blacks more influenced by BET/MTV than church, they're faking church just like Whitey: "Dangerously In Love" (Live Version), Beyonce; "Make It Happen", Mariah Carey

- Beyonce: VH1's "Driven: Beyonce"

- few contemporary singers who sound like church: "You Used To Love Me", Faith; "Friend of Mine" (original), Kelly Price

- church draws from MTV/BET: "Stomp", God's Property

>- church draws from MTV/BET: "Stomp", God's Property

There was a huge backlash against Kirk Franklin and his sound, which brought about Donnie McClurkin and those types, who have a more traditional sound. I really think the younger artists are where the influence shows, but even they change once the "get" what they are singing about.

And frankly, it woulda been a lot better without the examples of Joss and B. Really all they served to do was bring in all the connotations and knee-jerk emotionality those two figures are associated with around here.

<--- Now with all six members. You ain't dunnt.

Dunnt Affiliates: firebrand, muzik macks, beholdme, lanivishnu....

Lost in .

:0)

it didn't need joss, b & fire in the thesis statement....it would've fared MUCH better

<--- Now with all six members. You ain't dunnt.

Dunnt Affiliates: firebrand, muzik macks, beholdme, lanivishnu....

Lost in .

"And to be honest, i wonder about the existence of any “pure” church singing tradition at this point in general. Especially since over the past decade or so, the Church has actually been drawing heavily from radio/MTV/BET in order to reach out to the disaffected youth and halt the rapid “graying” of the Black Church."

Wonder about the existence? A graying Black church? Are you kidding me? So you're saying in black churches they're rapping and singing RNB now to gain members?

I think if you actually visited real black churches, you'd know that the "black church singing tradition" is definitely alive and will never die. It's always been about putting your all, through your voice or instrument, into praising God. It was never about entertainment.It's a wreckless, boundless, shameless worship of the highest form of good; the creator. As long as black people believe and praise God, that sound will never disappear. Never. Churches will continue to teach "make a joyful noise unto the lord." so it'll always be about singing (or playing music) to praise God.

Seems to me like you're basing your conclusion on the popular Christian music market or maybe some BET television sermon.

Only an African could cause this much ruckus with one post.

*skedaddles out of thread*

Not that it matters at this point. I've seen plenty of black churches that try to keep the young people interested by branching out into more secular sounding church music. AND I've been to plenty of black churches with dwindling memberships because they did nothing to attract young people.

That's all well and good darling, but I simply can't take you seriously at this point. Any church that uses anything other than God to build a congregation is is not a real church. It's a club or a small business. I'm sorry, but you haven't been attending churches.

A real church would know that attracting younger people isn't the problem now. The problem is a world that is believing less in the idea of an all powerful God. People in general don't feel compelled to attend.

I've attended four different churches in my lifetime and all four were of a pretty large size, never had problems with attendance. They have all had problems accomodating a swiftly growing membership.

Probably members leaving churches like the ones you've attended.

What I've noticed about each one is that they really and truly stress God first and all else second. Which meant, they never catered to the secular outside. That's like marketing Jesus. That's trying to sell something that doesn't need to be sold.

The general philosophy of the churches I've attended was that "the outside conforms to us and not us to them." It works the way it has always worked.

Who goes to church to listen to music anyway?

Even young impressionable kids understand you go to church to worship God. That's probably why the membership dropped in the "churches" you've attended.

Once again, you and he are way off in your assumptions.

you are a complete idiot to believe that yours is the only possible frame of reference. If you can't even fathom a church losing members, then I can't take you seriously either.

"And to be honest, i wonder about the existence of any “pure” church singing tradition at this point in general"

With the thousands of black churches in the USA right now, he's basically questioning whether any of them haven't given in and started catering to secular tastes in music. This is an idiotic and ignorant statement at best and you're a complete bumbling idiot for suggesting he's right. I don't see how any sane person could take this statement seriously.

He's way off in concluding that almost all churches are probably borrowing from the secular world. If he said "too many are" than maybe we have a real discussion. He's flat out wrong and you are too.

y u gotta write all that bullshit
does it really even matter?
the biggest myth is black people thinking they invented every genere of music
thikning they invented eveything that exists
why, last night I heard George Washington was the first black president
in the end
Beyonce is gonna be one big fat ass solid singer like all the rest of em: Patti, Aretha,
and Joss Stone, hell she will go away like all the other wigger singer chicks and start singing pop numbers

nm