>first you say:
>
>>who said that??? now you're jumpin for straws bro, aint no
>one
>>said the collective experience makes music...
>
>but then later you were talking about:
>
>>how people and societies and communities create
>>music...


cmoon homie ive made it clear that there is social dynamic and individual dynamic to black music, i have no problem championing the individual however you have a problem with the social context in which the music was born not me..aint nuthin contradictory bout what i said but if ur confused there ya go

>anyway The Way It Is is in third person observational mode,
>ok. i could name other songs about struggle written in 1st
>person, say The Boxer by Paul Simon. Someday I'll Be Saturday
>Night and Living on a Prayer by Bon Jovi lol... and there's
>lots of folk ballads that bemoan harsh experiences of an
>entire social group, i'm sure you realize that. the thing is
>if Bruce Hornsby was black i bet you'd be calling that song
>black music and saying how it could only come out of the black
>experience.

you really think its just the technique of third person is why im sayin its different LMAO!!! that aint got NUTHIN to do what im sayin, yo sam cooke was talking from his personal experience as a black man, bruce hornsby was speakin from the sidelines when he was talking bout racism in america..you completely sidestepped my point and went to an argument i wasnt even talkin bout just to prove ur point..you on fox news bill o reilly bullshit wit this one bro..cmon fam

>shared experience might give some extra resonance to a
>particular audience but i'm not convinced about the relevance
>on musical grounds.

its clear that negro spirituals are black music..beside the obvious fact that they are called NEGRO spirituals..it was a representation of our struggle....its clear in style and experience that the gospel music played in black churches is black music..clearly...NO ONE ELSE even does that..period.

>it's just causation. individuals create art, sometimes they
>coordinate their efforts in teams, for instance bands or maybe
>larger groups. but when you try to extend this REAL group
>dynamic /team-work to 'the collective' ie. tens of thousands,
>millions of people, i call BS cause you have abandoned
>causation

not at all, i jus know that the causation either comes first from the shared experiences that that certain individual has within the context of his culture and social context or a combination of both...the only causation from an individualistic standpoint is that the person played the instrument or came up with melody

you prolly one of them "we should be color blind, we shouldnt see color or ethnicity" type mothafuckas lol...anyways tho ima bit tired of talking of this subjec..but to end

there is a such thing as black music...whether or not your racial bias and attitudes dont like that idea is whatever, you need to acknowledge that blacks have invented styles, ways of singing, rhythm, and added our own experience into it...which is different from other cultures...i think you are definitly operating from a white privilege standpoint in which european white music is the norm but you fail to see how blacks have been marginalized in music for years and not given credit and how we've had to fight for our shit..you would rather reinforce ideas imo of oppression and black insignificance..that my friend is bullshit...on my mama