>>Actually, no, because the hardware is perfectly fine.
>>"Shitty" is definitely a ridiculous bit of hyperbole. I'd
>>rather have an actual keyboard, even if accompanied with the
>>occasional slider problems (of which I've had none), than
>just
>>not have the keyboard at all.
>
>Good. If you gotta have a keyboard stick with the Pre. Tens of
>millions of people way dumber than you have figured out how to
>use a screen just fine but you can't get by. Great. Palm is
>for you.

It's not about "knowing how to use a screen." Jesus christ. They took something away, something that many of us consider to be very important. They removed a feature, and replaced it with a workaround. That's fine, but we should call it what it is.

>>>Screen?
>>
>>Considering that the pixel count is the same on the Pre as
>on
>>the iphone, that's another no.
>
>Yeah LOL at pixel count being the only thing that matters on a
>screen. I presume you only look at the megapixel spec when
>buying cameras too.

Alright, what specifically are you getting at, apart from vague insinuations?

>>>Processor?
>>
>>The processor, again, is fine. The Pre is generally faster
>>than the 3G, and on many benchmarks, is competitive with the
>>3GS.
>
>Latest iPhone vs. latest Palm. Seems fair to me. And
>benchmarks aside, even against the 3G the Pre was very choppy
>in basic usage like swiping through photos or scrolling a long
>web page. I've actually done this side by side. You should
>too.

I have, and I have very little idea when you did this and on what firmware. I have no more reason to take your word for this than you have mine. But users are not generally complaining about the Pre being "very choppy in basic usage," so I don't know where you're getting that.

>>Well, the specific thing you said was "Sorry but the app
>store
>>pretty much makes the iPhone the best smartphone."
>Probably,
>>for some people. Not for all people.
>
>Obviously I didn't claim that all people prefer the iPhone.

No, you said "the app store pretty much makes the iPhone the best smartphone." "Best," like it's some kind of objective claim. But you neglected the fact that most of us can still find all the apps we need for the Pre, so for us, the app store is moot.

>This argument defeats that argument.
>
>>Then you said "actual people" don't care about multitasking,
>>then failed to explain why everyone seems to be talking
>about
>>whether they're about to do it.
>>
>>And my 50+ parents love their six year old e-machines piece
>of
>>shit desktop computer. That doesn't mean it "pretty much
>>makes it the best computer."
>
>LOL @ everyone on Engadget and OKP High Tech being "everyone".
>I guess you forgot that girls and old people buy phones too.

Well, I actually meant "everyone" to whom the OS 4 announcement was intended. Apple claims to have something to announce. The possibility that is usually mentioned in this context is multitasking.

>Besides that, the ONLY claim I made about multitasking is that
>it is clearly not a do-or-die feature based on market results.
>That point is irrefutable.

And I didn't claim to refute it.

>The iPhone does not have
>multitasking (yet), and is already the best-selling phone of
>all time. That makes multitasking a nice-to-have in the minds
>of many.
>
>If you want to base your assessment of aggregate public
>interest on Forum 11 on OKP rather than the entire American
>free market system, knock yourself out.

Well, how about the tech section of any major American newspaper? It's not like OKP is the only place where this is being discussed.

>Also, the app store is a major differentiator between the
>iPhone and other smart phones. The last important one left,
>I'd say. That's why it's reasonable to cite it as a reason for
>the iPhones continued success.

A big app store is great, but you have to admit there's a point of diminishing returns, where an app store becomes perfectly sufficient for any typical user. Any reasonable person would admit the Android marketplace is already there. The Palm Catalog is obviously more questionable, but it's quite a bit younger than the others, and most users seem to think it's growing at an acceptable rate.

>YOUR argument for why the
>iPhone is so successful is magical Apple FUD and trickery
>powerful enough to brainwash an entire nation and generate
>billions in revenue, yet impossible to duplicate by any other
>company on earth.

See, this is that strawmanning I was mentioning before.

>Steve Jobs isn't a Jedi. He makes great products and takes big
>risks.
>
>>The important point is that until they do these things, they
>>either claim they don't matter, or that they don't fit into
>>their revolutionary new user experience. Multitasking,
>>gapless, DRM, MMS, "didn't matter" until they did them. All
>>this time they said these things didn't matter, they were
>>working on them.
>
>>Cut and paste was a little more entertaining, because they
>>didn't just say it didn't matter. They tried to pretend
>there
>>was a fundamental difficulty in the very idea of selecting
>>text within their revolutionary, simple, intuitive user
>>experience. Then when they finally unveiled it, the
>>implementation was essentially what anyone would have
>expected
>>on day one.
>>
>>It took a very long time for the Pre to get cut and paste.
>>Seven or eight months as I remember. They didn't say it
>>didn't matter. They didn't say they were wrestling with
>>fundamental issues of human interaction. They said they
>were
>>working on it.
>>
>>I think I'm mostly just annoyed at Apple's hubris. The way
>>they claim to be the arbiters of what matters, or of how
>>people interact with their technology, when in fact they
>>respond to the marketplace all the time, including their
>>competitors.
>>
>>The iPad, for example, is a netbook. They can pretend all
>>they want, but it's a tablet-format netbook. Tablets have
>>existed for a long time, and dumbed-down laptops (netbooks)
>>have existed for a long time. There is nothing
>revolutionary
>>about the iPad except marketing.
>
>
>Fucking every tech company ever does that shit. So what?

So it's annoying when they do it, and Apple does it more frequently, and more egregiously, and more effectively, than any other.

>Nintendo thinks graphics don't matter. M$ thinks higher
>storage capacity doesn't matter. Sony thinks actual sales
>numbers don't matter. Every company trying to sell you
>something does this shit. Palm blatantly ripped off Apple's
>product,

I notice you still haven't detailed any particular examples of what exactly they ripped off.

>which you think was so non-revolutionary, then rushed
>a product to market, and were plagued with hardware & software
>issues for months after release, and you want to praise them
>for it.

Wait, do you live in a universe where the iphone was not "plagued with hardware and software issues for months after release"? Moreover, do you live in a universe where I "praised" Palm for hardware and software issues?

>Also if cut and paste has such an obvious implementation, why
>didn't Palm launch with it either?

Because they needed to fucking code it. And it wasn't their first priority. Just like Apple. That's my point. But at least they were honest about it.

>Why is WinMo7 hinting at
>launching without it?

Hinting at it? They've confirmed it multiple times, and I don't expect them to stick to it much longer than Apple did. But "Apple's no worse than Microsoft" isn't a particularly high standard to hold on to.



>>Who's micromanaging? As I said before, I have never noticed
>>any app, official or unofficial, to drain my battery
>>significantly in the background (apart from obvious ones
>that
>>play audio, or frequently update gps location, or something
>>like that). This is not an issue. It's an excuse, and it
>>should not be taken seriously.
>
>It's not an issue for you maybe, but most users would run
>foursquare or an IM client in the background all the time
>without really understanding the implications for power
>consumption.

If only they had some kind of centralized system from which everybody had to get their apps, so that Apple could warn them of these dangers in an organized way. They should think about that.

>Now you can argue that YOU get it so a Pre is
>better for YOU, but you can't really say that Apple is nuts
>for maybe holding off on multitasking until they solve that
>problem.
>
>>And again, nobody does that, because nobody needs to do that.
>
>>You're strawmanning. I don't run a task manager, I
>basically
>>only reboot for firmware updates, and my memory usage is
>fine.
>> On the rare occasions when an app does develop a serious
>>memory leak (as used to happen occasionally in the browser,
>a
>>few firmwares ago), it's obvious what it is and the memory
>is
>>easily freed when the app is closed. Worst case scenario
>>(which I've never experienced), I'd close all apps, which is
>>effectively what one would do on an iphone.
>
>Oh strawmanning? Is that like when you tried to start a side
>argument about the iPad?

Um, no, it's not. The straw man tactic involves intentionally misstating the arguments of one's opponent, so that you can more easily knock those arguments down. I never claimed to know your views of the iPad, and I never claimed to knock them down. I was citing an example, torn from the headlines, as they say. My point was that the iPad's been successfully turned into something more than it deserves to be, in the public consciousness. You're welcome to dispute that, accept it, or leave it.