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>>see post 30. It's always nice to read the previous comments
>>before you jump in with your own.
>
>see post 31, where in your next breath you are still
>questioning Israel's right to exist.
no. im questioning jersey's justification for israel's right to exist.
>>And just because something
>>happened 60 years ago doesn't justify its existance, unless
>of
>>coarse your morality is rooted in Zionist fundamentalism and
>>not Jewish law- the epitome of a fake ass "jew".
>
>see post 77. It's always nice to read the previous comments
>before you jump in with your own.
post 77 does not at all address your morality that is based on zionist fundamentalism and not jewish law. those are "the facts on the ground."
>>the majority of those in power CAN trace their roots back to
>>eastern europe, and those are the ones responsible for the
>>terrorist activities executed by the israeli govt.
>
>but you also said "The vast majority of those living in
>Israel" are Eastern European/Russian, which is incorrect.
because i don't have israel's population breakdown in front of me, I will concede this point. it's quite possible i was wrong about this.
i should've said the vast majority of those controlling israel.
> you
>also said "those who govern Israel have ABSOLUTELY NO ETHNIC
>OR HISTORICAL CLAIM to that land or people.", which is also
>incorrect. I guess you didn't check the link I gave to the
>genetic study proving this (see below)
>
>>for SOME eastern european jews to share a common genetic
>>marker with other jews is quite plausible if you understand
>>jewish history and migration routes over the last 1500
>years.
>
>not "some", most.
you derive 'most' from a few hundred jews who participated in this experiment?
>>for SOME eastern european jews to share a common genetic
>>marker with other jews is quite plausible if you understand
>>jewish history and migration routes over the last 1500
>years.
>>the origin of eastern european jewry, or 'ashkenazim' was
>>debated for a long time, because they could not be
>attributed
>>to any known jewish migration of the diaspora. The askenazim
>>have no historical origin in palestine at all. they are
>>descendants of russian steppe tribesman who were converted
>to
>>judaism about 740a.d. for political convenience (bordering
>>christian(byzantine) and islamic(persian) empires.
>> thanks primarily to the work of jewish historian A.N.
>Poliac
>>of israel, the mystery of the ashkenazim has been largely
>>cleared up with a plethora of historical documentation.
>
>
>http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/97/12/6769
>
>"Jewish and Middle Eastern non-Jewish populations share a
>common pool of Y-chromosome biallelic haplotypes"
>
>M. F. Hammer*, A. J. Redd*, E. T. Wood*, M. R. Bonner*, H.
>Jarjanazi*, T. Karafet*, S. Santachiara-Benerecetti¶, A.
>Oppenheim||, M. A. Jobling**, T. Jenkinsdagger dagger , H.
>Ostrer, and B. Bonné-Tamir§
>
>* Laboratory of Molecular Systematics and Evolution,
>University of Arizona, Tucson, AZ 85721; ¶ Department of
>Genetics, Università degli Studi di Pavia, Pavia 27100, Italy;
>|| Hadassah Medical School, Hebrew University of Jerusalem,
>Jerusalem 91120, Israel; ** Department of Genetics, University
>of Leicester, Leicester LE1 7RH, England; SAMIR, University of
>Witwatersrand, Johannesburg 2000, South Africa; Department of
>Pediatrics, New York University Medical Center, New York, NY
>10016; and § Department of Human Genetics, Sackler School of
>Medicine, Ramat Aviv 69978, Israel
>
> Abstract
>
>"Haplotypes constructed from Y-chromosome markers were used to
>trace the paternal origins of the Jewish Diaspora. A set of 18
>biallelic polymorphisms was genotyped in 1,371 males from 29
>populations, including 7 Jewish (Ashkenazi, Roman, North
>African, Kurdish, Near Eastern, Yemenite, and Ethiopian) and
>16 non-Jewish groups from similar geographic locations. The
>Jewish populations were characterized by a diverse set of 13
>haplotypes that were also present in non-Jewish populations
>from Africa, Asia, and Europe. A series of analyses was
>performed to address whether modern Jewish Y-chromosome
>diversity derives mainly from a common Middle Eastern source
>population or from admixture with neighboring non-Jewish
>populations during and after the Diaspora. Despite their
>long-term residence in different countries and isolation from
>one another, most Jewish populations
MOST jewish populations!
> were not significantly
>different from one another at the genetic level. Admixture
>estimates suggested low levels of European Y-chromosome gene
>flow into Ashkenazi and Roman Jewish communities. A
>multidimensional scaling plot placed six of the seven Jewish
>populations in a relatively tight cluster that was
>interspersed with Middle Eastern non-Jewish populations,
HOLD UP! the study said SIX of the seven Jewish populations in a "relatively" tight cluster. they conveniently leave out who that seventh jweish population was that included. I'd be interested to know who it was. For your arguement to hold any weight, we need to know who which group was not included in this genetic cluster. once we get that out of the way, i'll go on to show you why this study still proves nothing other than showing one group of white people(modern europeans) that shares common genetic ancestors with another group of white people(modern middle eastern whites/arabs)
>including Palestinians and Syrians. Pairwise differentiation
>tests further indicated that these Jewish and Middle Eastern
>non-Jewish populations were not statistically different. The
>results support the hypothesis that the paternal gene pools of
>Jewish communities from Europe, North Africa, and the Middle
>East descended from a common Middle Eastern ancestral
>population, and suggest that most Jewish communities have
>remained relatively isolated from neighboring non-Jewish
>communities during and after the Diaspora."
>
>
>- hard science trumps pseudo-history.
LOL! I guess you consider archeological evidence to be pseudo-history(i even gave you the sources, though you probably can't google it). You've got some work to do before your arguement can be considered hard science.
>> It's not hard to imagine that intermingling went on
>between
>>these two groups, thus passing on genetic markers and
>slightly
>>amalgamating a part of the euro-jewish population.
>
>http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/97/12/6769#Abstract
>
>"Despite their long-term residence in different countries and
>isolation from one another, most Jewish populations were not
>significantly different from one another at the genetic level.
>Admixture estimates suggested low levels of European
>Y-chromosome gene flow into Ashkenazi and Roman Jewish
>communities."
the terms "most" and "suggested" make it difficult to consider this "hard science." and also i'd love to know how one can distinguish the "european" Y chromosome from a..."middle eastern" chromosome, assuming black and white middle easterners share the exact same Y-chromosome. this ought to be interesting
>>may have created a genetic link, it is hardly justification
>>for a claim to take over palestine and the palestinian
>people
>
>post 77.
looks like we agree on something
>>or the jewish culture.
>
>
>http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/97/12/6769#Abstract
>
>"Pairwise differentiation tests further indicated that these
>Jewish and Middle Eastern non-Jewish populations were not
>statistically different. The results support the hypothesis
>that the paternal gene pools of Jewish communities from
>Europe, North Africa, and the Middle East descended from a
>common Middle Eastern ancestral population, and suggest that
>most Jewish communities have remained relatively isolated from
>neighboring non-Jewish communities during and after the
>Diaspora."
>
>>The Yiddish language, the wearing of
>>skullcaps called 'yarmolkas,' the fur-trimmed hats and the
>>hairstyle of wearing sidelocks are all Kazar traditions with
>>no original Hebrew origins.
>
>uh, Yiddish is a Germanic language, while the Kazars were
>Turkic peoples surrounded by Slavic-speaking peoples in the
>Russian Steppes. and the wearing of yarmulkes goes back to the
>Talmud.
uh, Yiddish contains words from several different languages, one of them being primitive form of some germanic tongue (but nothing like any sort of german spoken to the west of Poland) as well as some basic Hebrew, Russian and Ukranian. it is also important to remember that Yiddish developed during the period of Kazar migration to eastern europe.
Also waiting for a talmudic reference to the wearing of yarmulkas.
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