we know portions of fundamentalist Christians spend all their time protesting this but aside from that, what has some of us convinced it's murder?

i mean, i never thought it was. I thought let a woman have a choice over her body. but one day i saw photos. those photos whether from 8weeks or up, those fetuses have head, hands, fingers, legs and toes.

i know for years we've heard that its not murder, that they're not living or whatever.

but what is the justification other than the i have control over my body reason?

i'm not going to post pictures cuz i'm not trying to gross anybody out, but one of the reasons its so gross is because it's little itty bitty babies getting their heads crushed by forceps

how is that not murder?

then plenty of desperate women can just drop them off somewhere and let ??? take care of them, right?

question: is a fetus a human being?

i think this is the issue, not what a fetus looks like or the control a woman has over her womb. at what point is it able to exist outside of the womb...as a living human being?

historically, a fetus has never (or very rarely) been considered a human being, at least not before indicating noticeable movement of the fetus. the Catholic Church even allowed abortion until that point, up until 18694. further, the wide variety of laws throughout the world were written specifically to protect born human beings and their property. there is virtually no legal precedent for applying such laws to fetuses. even when abortion was illegal, it had a lesser punishment than for murder, and was often just a misdemeanor.

fetuses are uniquely different from born human beings in major ways, which casts doubt on the claim that they can be classified as human beings. the most fundamental difference is that a fetus is totally dependent on a woman's body to survive. pro-lifers might argue that born human beings can be entirely dependent on other people too, but the crucial difference is that they are not dependent on one, specific person to the exclusion of all others. anybody can take care of a newborn infant (or disabled person), but only that pregnant woman can nurture her fetus. she can’t hire someone else to do it.

another key difference is that a fetus doesn't just depend on a woman's body for survival, it actually resides inside her body. human beings must, by definition, be separate individuals. they do not gain the status of human being by virtue of living inside the body of another human being—the very thought is inherently ridiculous, even offensive

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since laws are generally not in our best interest and Catholicism is steeped in witchcraft (look it up)

so basically, it's ok to end the life of a tiny person if that person is dependent on the life of the mother?

ok then let's imagine you having to have an abortion

and instead of the clinic nurse wisking away the fetus, they show you it.

could you look at it with it's little fingers and eyes and body and knowingly assuredly believe that ending it's life is not murder?

not what the law says, or some religious affiliation, or even another person like myself (especially since i wouldn't have the opportunity to be there unless my wife/girl was doing it)

but you

can you look into his/her eyes (you/your so's child's eyes) and say you're not really a person because you didn't fully develop and since i choose not to have you, it's ok?

and she probably won't look at what comes out but not just because it has little eyes or hands. the fetus would represent a mistake, or a bad situation she was in, or even an abuse/rape she was subjected to

no, she would not need to see that

she might even feel a sense of relief at the "thing" being gone

abortion is not a decision or choice most women take lightly. it is often at great risk that women even consider abortions and in some cases it's a choice of their own lives over that of something that has yet to become an individual...to be born

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

anything i don't need, i get rid of

i had too much food, i'll throw it away
i have too many possessions, i'll sell or throw them away
i had too much sex (or was raped or i'm not ready) and now a baby's born, i'll get rid of that too (after much thought)

how is it different?

what would happen if we weren't given an option, what did people do in the past (outside of the underground abortions)?

most people just had to make it work, but now? just have an abortion

i thought the whole burden of being a mother is having to put the needs of the child before themselves?

how is it that we were able to create an opt-out policy?

one of the kids i work with is 15 and a mother of a 2 month old. her mother had her seventh baby a month after the 15 yr old (who is in foster care and has been most of her life). her mother, a drug addict, thinks she'll keep this one despite the fact that all of the previous ones are suffering in foster care (well two have been adopted)

i know where the father of the 15 yr old was until last year (when she got pregnant). he was in prison

now you tell me what this means? i have some ideas but i want to hear yours first

btw - i am not saying that abortion is the solution here but people love to get picky when it comes to quality of life vs defining life (or who/what deserves to live)

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

i don't understand what area you'd like ideas about

come on!

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

"one of the kids i work with is 15 and a mother of a 2 month old. her mother had her seventh baby a month after the 15 yr old (who is in foster care and has been most of her life). her mother, a drug addict, thinks she'll keep this one despite the fact that all of the previous ones are suffering in foster care (well two have been adopted)

i know where the father of the 15 yr old was until last year (when she got pregnant). he was in prison

now you tell me what this means?"

but in which way do you want me to explain it?
means in which way?

it's a messed up situation and it needs a solution

but i don't think abortion is the solution

accountability is

but since there is no accountability, aborting the children deals with the symptom and not the root

can it be guaranteed that the kids would also end up in prison if they had grown up under her care? maybe, but not necesarily, maybe they'll get adopted and end up in good homes. or maybe the'll bounce from group home to group home eventually ending up in jail adding to more criminals in the us population.

but we know that issue is deeper than educating on sex and drugs, the root that screwed up the family is more than that, what's causing the woman to turn to drugs and have so many kids by a man in jail. does she have low self worth, if so why? is she trying to escape from some kind of pain? what can we do to counter that? and how can we keep adults accountable or should we just allow people to do whatever and encourage abortion for cases like this?

since our society has become a me based society over time, wasteful, apathetic, inconsiderate, there's things that can be done, that we can do, but it's easier to encourage abortion, for THOSE people and ME if needed.

>but we know that issue is deeper than educating on sex and
>drugs, the root that screwed up the family is more than that,
>what's causing the woman to turn to drugs and have so many
>kids by a man in jail. does she have low self worth, if so
>why? is she trying to escape from some kind of pain? what can
>we do to counter that? and how can we keep adults accountable
>or should we just allow people to do whatever and encourage
>abortion for cases like this?

don't act like people in power are ready to step down or that people are willing to openly address race and class as it relates to disparities and double-standards in education, housing, etc. the same problems that screwed up her family also screwed up mine. i decided to break that cycle but that's another story for another time. how does one counter institutionalized racism? sexism?

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i'm not saying people in power are ready to step down or that all people are willing to openly address race and class as it relates to the topics you mentioned.

but some are willing. you and i are, others on this board, there are others elsewhere. we're not isolated. people are talking. but the change comes when those who really know and can clearly relate this knowledge continue to tell others. the ignorant and stubborn will do what they do, but those on the fence may switch, maybe not now, maybe not tomorrow but some will inevitably.

institutionalized racism and sexism are so strong because they are rooted in the system itself. the only way to change that is to change those who get into the system and those who have to deal with it. for example, an agency may be selective in who it chooses for a program but get the right person in and they may be unbiased or more biased in the opposite direction. but those people have to be inspired or already have the foreknowledge of the problem to want to be the one to help solve it. where do they come from? each one, teach one. whether parents, friends, colleagues, we inspire each other to think globally and act locally even if its just having intelligent discourse.

nothings absolute, we the people just accept it that way because we are taught that, but the reality is we have the power to change everything. which is what civil rights did. if that was to happen now, maybe many of us would say we can't do anything it's hopeless, but we can, we're just not as willing to lay it all down and risk everything for it. institutionalized racism/sexism can be stopped the same way.

even as we reach out to help others. that girl chose not to break the cycle no matter what

my point is that there are more factors than personal choice when it comes to the effects of poverty, racism, or sexism in disenfranchised communities. in my field i come across people who if not like-minded are at least questioning the status quo but people underestimate what it takes to reform the system. i have seen some crazy, racist, sexist shit in my position, from people who are considered the "authorities", in charge of making decisions for other people

>institutionalized racism and sexism are so strong because they
>are rooted in the system itself

i know this

>the only way to change that
>is to change those who get into the system and those who have
>to deal with it. for example, an agency may be selective in
>who it chooses for a program but get the right person in and
>they may be unbiased or more biased in the opposite direction

and if they don't follow the program they are alienated and more often forced out. it takes a VERY strong, determined, supported person to deal with this kind of b.s.

>each one, teach one.
>whether parents, friends, colleagues, we inspire each other to
>think globally and act locally even if its just having
>intelligent discourse.

but how often does this get down to the grassroots level? there are examples but usually local and struggling for resources

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>my point is that there are more factors than personal choice
>when it comes to the effects of poverty, racism, or sexism in
>disenfranchised communities. in my field i come across people
>who if not like-minded are at least questioning the status quo
>but people underestimate what it takes to reform the system.
>i have seen some crazy, racist, sexist shit in my position,
>from people who are considered the "authorities", in charge of
>making decisions for other people

that is not an accident. i've seen some of the most belligerent people be in these types of positions. they're gatekeepers.

>
>and if they don't follow the program they are alienated and
>more often forced out. it takes a VERY strong, determined,
>supported person to deal with this kind of b.s.

this is intentional, I'm sure you know that too. But that's how it's setup. an additional problem is that we're all conditioned to be snitches now so even if someone was strong you gotta worry about your coworkers. the reason for that is divide and conquer. we are strong in numbers. hence the need for racism and sexism. they keep us divided and then the only ones that stand up to it are those lone guns. most like you said don't have the time, energy or desire to deal with that. so instead of joining the lone gun, they partake in the pavlovian gold star reward system we got and snitch.

but the key is numbers, so each one, teach one. the more that start talking/thinking about it will eventually act it out since as a man believes he becomes. the black man is god, (not a slave) right? look how that's helped people and that was started by one guy who others believed in.


>but how often does this get down to the grassroots level?
>there are examples but usually local and struggling for
>resources

so here we are all agreeing that abortion or whatever other thing that's killing people off is okay, destroying ourselves voluntarily because we've been deceived by numerous methods and years of submission to change willfully. the grassroots level can be reached by keeping each other accountable. this however is another thing that has been done away as seen by parents not discipling other kids, parents not disciplining their own and taking their side over the teacher, as just a few.

the problem with the black community (and you know this too) is the family has been attacked and disassembled by a number of ways. the only way to change that is to try to get back to strong family values (beliefs) which will affect action later if everyone's doing their part to keep everyone accountable. this is why it'd be good if celebrities especially rappers would start encouraging strong black families. but when's the last time we saw someone the young people really like, do that? since movies like the Great Debaters or Tyler Perry may be good but that has less an impact on kids, than 50 cent. but we can't depend on them, individuals have to do it themselves. isn't there a saying "only we save we?" so if people are continuing to choose ignorance, we have to choose knowledge in action to show by our actions that ignorance leads to destruction since only by it being seen can someone see sometimes that it's a better way and that they're not alone as the "survival of the fittest/me" world tells them.

gatekeepers are the ones who quietly make decisions that keep things the way they are. they employ the belligerent ones as a distraction and then get rid of them after they have stopped serving their purpose

>so here we are all agreeing that abortion or whatever other
>thing that's killing people off is okay

i'm saying i am not judging desperate women who choose to have an abortion. abortion has been around for centuries, legal and illegal. there are accounts of it in ancient times!

>parents not disciplining
>their own and taking their side over the teacher, as just a
>few.

Black folks discipline children but often are emotionally distant, even cold which can be detrimental, as well. having a parent who was warm and not a disciplinarian was actually beneficial

i know a young man who was dating my college roommate when he was in high school. he was troubled and spent a lot of time hanging out at our place. we bonded through music but other than that i kept busy and tried to stay out of everyone's business. years later, after i returned from grad school and worked my first full time job, i saw him again and he was married and a new father. he told me that the only reason he went to college was because he saw me staying true to the community while being in college (he did not think you could do both). it really touched me.

there are some i have touched who i never saw again...it takes years to know whether or not you've made an difference in someone's life. that's why, to me, it never seems as if i am doing enough but i have to accept that i am doing the best i can as an individual who cares...

...but that's another story. i am still pro-choice!

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

or karma, we reap what we sow, or for every action there's an equal and opposite reaction. whatever it's called is a true law operating in the universe and all we can do is work with it as best as possible

sounds like you are doing your best. i'm not judging anyone but calling a spade a spade. but it still comes down to individual choice. i'm not sure how much freedom we have if they made a law against it. but down the road and actually already now, the govt forces certain things that really aren't in our benefit against our bodies but they've convinced us that it's for our benefit. I don't know if that can ever be done for abortion if everyone continues to believe in pro-choice. so it's freedom vs life, two very important aspects. i guess that's one reason for it being a hot-button topic and one of society's unsolved mysteries.

.


dbl trbl post

you are clearly biased

lol

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i don't add qualifiers and self-interest into my decisions of which lives are more deserving of convenience than another is of its very life.

>i don't add qualifiers and self-interest into my decisions of
>which lives are more deserving of convenience than another is
>of its very life.

and this is why you shouldn't be responding to me

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your statement. you seem to have taken my logical inerpretation of your staement as a personal attack. its not.

>your statement. you seem to have taken my logical
>inerpretation of your staement as a personal attack. its not.
>

It's always personal

Each progressive spirit is opposed by a thousand mediocre minds appointed to guard the past. ~
Maurice Maeterlinck

.

>fetuses are uniquely different from born human beings in major
>ways, which casts doubt on the claim that they can be
>classified as human beings. the most fundamental difference is
>that a fetus is totally dependent on a woman's body to
>survive.

Gianna Jessen

Testimony of abortion survivor Gianna Jessen before the Constitution Subcommittee of the House Judiciary Committee on April 22, 1996.

My name is Gianna Jessen. I am 19 years of age. I am originally from California, but now reside in Franklin, Tennessee. I am adopted. I have cerebral palsy. My biological mother was 17 years old and seven and one-half months pregnant when she made the decision to have a saline abortion. I am the person she aborted. I lived instead of died.

Fortunately for me the abortionist was not in the clinic when I arrived alive, instead of dead, at 6:00 a.m. on the morning of April 6, 1977. I was early, my death was not expected to be seen until about 9 a.m., when he would probably be arriving for his office hours. I am sure I would not be here today if the abortionist would have been in the clinic as his job is to take life, not sustain it. Some have said I am a "botched abortion", a result of a job not well done.

There were many witnesses to my entry into this world. My biological mother and other young girls in the clinic, who also awaited the death of their babies, were the first to greet me. I am told this was a hysterical moment. Next was a staff nurse who apparently called emergency medical services and had me transferred to a hospital.

I remained in the hospital for almost three months. There was not much hope for me in the beginning. I weighed only two pounds. Today, babies smaller than I was have survived.

A doctor once said I had a great will to live and that I fought for my life. I eventually was able to leave the hospital and be placed in foster care. I was diagnosed with cerebral palsy as a result of the abortion.

My foster mother was told that it was doubtful that I would ever crawl or walk. I could not sit up independently. Through the prayers and dedication of my foster mother, and later many other people, I eventually learned to sit up, crawl, then stand. I walked with leg braces and a walker shortly before I turned age four. I was legally adopted by my foster mother's daughter, Diana De Paul, a few months after I began to walk. The Department of Social Services would not release me any earlier for adoption.

I have continued in physical therapy for my disability, and after a total of four surgeries, I can now walk without assistance. It is not always easy. Sometimes I fall, but I have learned how to fall gracefully after falling 19 years.

I am happy to be alive. I almost died. Every day I thank God for life. I do not consider myself a by-product of conception, a clump of tissue, or any other of the titles given to a child in the womb. I do not consider any person conceived to be any of those things.

I have met other survivors of abortion. They are all thankful for life. Only a few months ago I met another saline abortion survivor. Her name is Sarah. She is two years old. Sarah also has cerebral palsy, but her diagnosis is not good. She is blind and has severe seizures. The abortionist, besides injecting the mother with saline, also injects the baby victims. Sarah was injected in the head. I saw the place on her head where this was done. When I speak, I speak not only for myself, but for the other survivors, like Sarah, and also for those who cannot yet speak ...

Today, a baby is a baby when convenient. It is tissue or otherwise when the time is not right. A baby is a baby when miscarriage takes place at two, three, four months. A baby is called a tissue or clumps of cells when an abortion takes place at two, three, four months. Why is that? I see no difference. What are you seeing? Many close there eyes...

The best thing I can show you to defend life is my life. It has been a great gift. Killing is not the answer to any question or situation. Show me how it is the answer.

There is a quote which is etched into the high ceilings of one of our state's capitol buildings. The quote says, "Whatever is morally wrong, is not politically correct." Abortion is morally wrong. Our country is shedding the blood of the innocent. America is killing its future.

All life is valuable. All life is a gift from our Creator. We must receive and cherish the gifts we are given. We must honor the right to life.

.

Those who believe it is not murder will say stuff like it can't live outside the woman's womb, but they never answer the question at hand.
I couldn't feel my son move at 16 weeks but during an ultrasound he was moving trying to avoid the light of the ultrasound, had independent thought because he knew he didn't like that light and a conscious. Yet some argue that a fetus doesn't feel pain or have a conscious. I don't think my son is anymore special than the next child in utero.


Abortion is murder, you are purposely distinguishing a life plain and simple.

Shit happens

i disagree

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

If that's the case then women shouldn't have to take so many precautions during the first and second trimesters. Go ahead and lift that case of water, have dinner at the cigar bar and lay on your stomach every night of the week.. What does it matter the fetus isn't alive anyway right?

**shm**

Each progressive spirit is opposed by a thousand mediocre minds appointed to guard the past. ~
Maurice Maeterlinck

________
<---A Luta Continua

Gig-A-Year
http://avanturb.com/news/?page_id=82

"Don't bring Bush Shit to Africa!"

© Seun

Tegrity

I think I know what you mean but I'm not sure

additionally if aborting a baby IS murder

aren't there unseen consequences?

you asked "why isn't abortion considered murder"

if many judges, legislators, and many other people of all walks in society DID allow themselves to come to considering abortion murder, there would be unseen consequences in store for many of THEM. it takes a TON of integrity and personal courage to declare something that you may have been involved in yourself to be murder or evil or disgusting in any way.

especially in a culture that loves to define people AS the worst things they've done. which is why i feel one of the big things we need to start correcting as people is coming to understand that we can face facts about what we've done without condemning ourselves as people, accept our wrongs, and continue to strive for what's right...and not throw the hypocrite label at everyone (including self) who slips short on what they preach to be right.

its that personal automatic consequence that would come to people for admitting to themselves that abortion is murder.

...not to mention the fear of possible retrospective (and unfair) LEGAL consequences one may believe would be in store for them if abortion was considered murder.

the point is not to have legal ramifications for the actions but the actual thought of abortion as killing someone as you explained

but that was a very interesting explanation you gave. thank you for the insight, i think you're right. there are things in my life that i do that i think are okay but they may have unseen consequences but since the law protects me from worrying about it i continue. it's interesting how we've fought for these laws to come into place because we want it that way so that we can be guiltless

i guess abortion falls into the same

I'm killing billions of black people

I should be locked up

.....................................

http://www.myspace.com/theyounggarvey
"Paint a picture of the Ghetto like JJ"- Common

nasty

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for you i've included pictures hehe

sperm
http://www.ehponline.org/members/2006/114-11/sperm.jpg
they look like tadpoles lol

fetus at 7 weeks
http://www.brown.edu/Courses/BI0032/repro/7week.jpg
you can see his/her eyes, nose/nostrils, fingers/toes, and even ribs

-

Each progressive spirit is opposed by a thousand mediocre minds appointed to guard the past. ~
Maurice Maeterlinck

nm

i don't like telling other people what they should do, but for me personally i wouldnt have an abortion.

i see it as murder: killing a child before it has the chance to see the light of day.

>

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

when the clock strikes midnight on a certain date where our calendar now considers "now" the last trimester?

when the feet come out?

when the head comes out? chin or scalp?

when it cries something magical happens?

i'm not trying to be a smart ass, but i'm really interested in where you see that magical single moment when the change from blob to person happens.

take that to mean whatever it means. for me it means able to function on its own and that means breathe and exist without someone else. if a parent leaves a baby someone else can care for it and it will still live and grow

it's not about magic at all and we've already determined when babies can exist outside of the womb (and we're pushing it back through science)

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

sure he be tried for double murder?

Each progressive spirit is opposed by a thousand mediocre minds appointed to guard the past. ~
Maurice Maeterlinck

No.

___________________________
RIP

Convicting Peterson of the 2nd degree murder of an unborn child means that abortion is also murder.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

<---- *****official okaysports lil people's eyebrow*****

it's double murder?

-

Each progressive spirit is opposed by a thousand mediocre minds appointed to guard the past. ~
Maurice Maeterlinck

it doesn't count as human?

so it's alright to kill it because it depends on the mother?

where did this definition come from?

is this the official consensus from the authorities?

doesn't really matter what authorities (or men) think now does it?

it's her body and her right to do with it as she sees fit

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

but you didn't directly answer the question in reference to authorities. 1 count of murder or 2 counts.

Each progressive spirit is opposed by a thousand mediocre minds appointed to guard the past. ~
Maurice Maeterlinck

with additional consideration for the fetus depending on how far along the woman was

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

to end the term

it could be a drug or a doctor or someone damaging the stomach to the point where the baby dies.

that's not natural concerning the human body.

the more i learn about the human body, i learn how self-sufficient it is. where is the provision for the body to end it on its own?

we have a choice but we in many areas of life are going outside what is natural to what is mechanical and cold. abortion is our law written right but it's not for humanity. the only time it could be would be rape. and though that happens more than we admit, it's not the main reason for abortion. the number one reason is promiscuity then non-accountability. abortion is just another law written into the system that allows us to opt out of being responsible for our actions. we teach the youth this and are perpetuating a cycle of destruction.

and people for the most part seem convinced that this is an okay way to keep populations down at least a little, so I'm alright with that.

The line as to what's human and what's not is pretty arbitrary I think...but I don't think being able to survive by itself outside the womb is a good definition, because we all know regular babies would still die if we left them.

Also, I do respect the anti-abortionists for their fight...if I was convinced that there was some wholly unjust genocide occuring in our society and was really concerned about it, I hope I'd work as hard as they do to change public perception.

...says Wrongthink

Real talk: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12JJv6yCk7Q

Current Rotation:

Shad - TSOL
Onra - Long Distance
Cool Kids - Tacklebox
Shabazz Palaces

but how do we know?

i've heard that we are. but on what basis has that been established?

the Georgia Guidestones say it. But most Americans don't even know about them and the ones that do have no clue to its origins.

i've heard politicians and world figures speak about it
and the news or scientists

we're definitely not treating the earth good, but so-called savage indigenous peoples never hurt the earth compared to what we so-called civilized industrialists have done

maybe we should think about how we operate here

it's funny how we won't change our ways due to money or stubborness and whathaveyou but we will glady serve up innocent human life and just rationalize it as an acceptable practice

Population and consumption rate.

These ideas are quantified.

But, put simply, if we wish to live in a sustainable way, we can either have 20 billion people that consume at the rate of the average Bangladeshi, roughly 1.5-2 billion people that consume at the rate of people in France, say, which I think is a decent, desirable and attainable goal, or 800 million people who consume at the rate of people in the US.

I can go into more detail, with references, about how we arrived at these numbers, but I hope that gives you some insight to start.

...says Wrongthink

Real talk: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12JJv6yCk7Q

Current Rotation:

Shad - TSOL
Onra - Long Distance
Cool Kids - Tacklebox
Shabazz Palaces

it's very interesting and I could form a better opinion if i knew what it was that we're surviving off in each of the three scenarios.

beef factors in right? what about less livestock and more produce/grains?

not that any of us americans would be willing to cut back for some unknowns or the planet anyway. but i'll be better educated on this issue and it may help with my consumption levels.

Driving, mostly. That includes how far your food had to travel to get to you. Tied in with this is air travel, which is substantial.

Imagine that of the 350 000 000km of ocean and 150 000 000km of land on the earth's surface, each human was allotted an equal portion. ie, imagine for each of the 6.7 billion people living on earth there was 52000 square meters of ocean and 22000 square meters of land...or, if you prefer, 5.5 acres of land and 12.9 acres of ocean.

On your 5.5 acres of land sits your house. And you. And all the plants and animals you will eat now and in the future, or each year if it helps you think about it. If you eat animals or drink milk or use products from animals, you also have to grow extra food to feed those animals. Yes, beef will exceptionally crowd your space because of the grass/grain that needs to be grown to feed them, the grazing space they require to live (tied in with the last) and the time it takes to return. Giving up beef would probably be the biggest consumption change a person could make with their diet alone.

Also on this land would exist all the trees that, in conjunction with the photosynthetic bacteria/protists in your ocean, will use up the carbon dioxide you produce by driving, flying and heating your home. In addition, they must also consume the carbon dioxide used in getting your food and other products to you, because they're not all in your yard in real life, but spread about the world.

Well, I'm a little drunk. I forgot to do the math on the portion of the earth's surface that's photosynthetically active (and shrinking.) I also forgot free, unused habitat space. Fuckit, I hope this gives you the idea. Main bits?

Beef/Milk
Meat in general
Cars
Foods that come from far away
Air travel
Home insulation
Square footage of your living space.

These are the ways in which people in the US are living beyond the means of the earth.

...says Wrongthink

Real talk: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12JJv6yCk7Q

Current Rotation:

Shad - TSOL
Onra - Long Distance
Cool Kids - Tacklebox
Shabazz Palaces

hmm i've been staying away from beef and didn't realize it's impact on consumption. all in all i understand what you are saying and it makes sense. except the home insulation. what's the issue with that?

Germany did like a country-wide reinsulation as a green/economic move.

...says Wrongthink

Real talk: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12JJv6yCk7Q

Current Rotation:

Shad - TSOL
Onra - Long Distance
Cool Kids - Tacklebox
Shabazz Palaces

I realize there is no way to prove this to you, but this is why it is not murder. All the movements that are taking place within the womb are purely physical and are not due to a consciousness existing in the fetus. At first breath, the spirit enters the body and life experience begins. Prior to that, it's only potential.

Peace


"Basically, I’m going to take what you did, the bare-bones structure of what you were trying to do, how you were attacking the song, and attack it in pretty much the same way, just with more intensity to show you that you could’ve come harder" - Bun B

Re

when i used to study the Bible a lot I came across something relating to this. when God breathed into the dust, it became a soul which is the combination of body and spirit. a word study reveals this as well since spirit derived from breath from the latin spiritus and inspiration means breathed into from in + spirare (to breathe). I believe this is seen in other belief systems as well such as the Chi which is the life force and also the breath.

So I could see that being true if everything else was in line. I'm not up on womb science so babies don't breathe in there? Also what is the reasoning behind the kicking of the baby? Is that some sort of automatic motor response? Is there other things that the pre-baby does that seems like a human action but is really just something minute?

>when i used to study the Bible a lot I came across something
>relating to this. when God breathed into the dust, it became a
>soul which is the combination of body and spirit. a word study
>reveals this as well since spirit derived from breath from the
>latin spiritus and inspiration means breathed into from in +
>spirare (to breathe). I believe this is seen in other belief
>systems as well such as the Chi which is the life force and
>also the breath.

...though soul is NOT a combination of body and spirit.
>
>So I could see that being true if everything else was in line.
>I'm not up on womb science so babies don't breathe in there?

No. The fetus receives oxygen from the mothers blood delivered thru the umbilical cord. When the baby is born the first breaths are taken.

>Also what is the reasoning behind the kicking of the baby? Is
>that some sort of automatic motor response? Is there other
>things that the pre-baby does that seems like a human action
>but is really just something minute?

You know the answer to these questions, but i'll go ahead and cosign your own intuition and say yes, they are motor responses due do muscle development. As the nervous system matures, they can respond to stimulation.


"Basically, I’m going to take what you did, the bare-bones structure of what you were trying to do, how you were attacking the song, and attack it in pretty much the same way, just with more intensity to show you that you could’ve come harder" - Bun B

Re