I have always thought that a black person could not be racist. In order for a person to be racist they had to be in power. In other words, Prejudice + power= racism. The other day a white girl called me racist because of my opinions of white people...so my question is can a black person be racist???

but the dynamic is different because the "playing field" isn't equal

for example, the white academic vice president of a college can profile faculty based on race and never get questioned about it but if the same position was held by a Black person the consequences would be different. Black folks with power are expected to know their place, "toe the party line" or speak, or act in a manner that conforms to the political (or racial) group's agenda. it is often these Black folks who turn their hatred to other Black people (and themselves) while the Black people who openly express hatred of white people are actually expressing hatred of a system that keeps white people in power

it's not the same on both sides of the Black and white dynamic

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fashioned plea copping:
>while
>the Black people who openly express hatred of white people are
>actually expressing hatred of a system that keeps white people
>in power
and a total lack of personal responsibility

unless you actually experience racism how would you know what is plea copping and what isn't?

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You know me
I STAY callin double standards when I see em

so

do better

.

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and KIM

Why must you try and justify racism?
Which is exactly what you're doing

"well, yeah, they can be racist, BUT the reason they are racist is..."

It aint a good look

typical

but not a good look

see how focused i am?

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i know you hate to go back but you might have to in this case

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n/m

you danced around a similar question

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what question? i'll try to be as clear as i can be.

>see how focused i am?

"Who’s this face in the mirror that I see
Sometimes confused by the double standards of society
And maybe I’m wrong about the way I feel
But then will somebody tell me what is really real?

Now I respect myself
I respect you too, but in the end it’s got to be
Do unto me as I do to you
Now I'm trying to try to tell you it’s time
Separate our wants from our desires
Separate the truth from the lie
To live like people so inspired

It’s the world who’s out to see
They seek respect humanity
And at one time it seemed to be we could live together peacefully
If we have truth we can survive
And for that our forefathers have died
It should be immoral or a sin
If it is according to the skin I’m in
Skin I’m in

Tell me how many times, how many times can I
Adjust my attitude to reach & touch the sky
Basic love is the creed by which I live
But then sometimes I wonder just how much a (wo)man can give
Gross injustices surround me from the highest levels of power
And you say these are the people I depend on for my survival
Is it for real or am I seeing shadows in the dark
I’ll let you tell me, can u tell me brother
Tell me now

It’s the world who’s out to see
Basic respect humanity
I’m just trying to be realistic without becoming pessimistic
If we have hope we can survive
A damn good reason to stay alive
Is it immoral or a sin
It seems to be according to the skin I’m in
Skin I’m in" ~ Cameo

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I actually agree with that more than anything else she said.

Lies run sprints.
Truths run marathons.

"black ppl dont hate white ppl because they are white, they hate them because they are being oppressed by white's ppls racism and prejudice"

black ppl dont like white ppl (or at the very least dont have a fully positive view of white ppl as a whole) because yall have a better lot in life and social status and u all protect that, benefit from that, and im some cases encourage it to expand

its white ppl that started the hate just because, just devaluing and abusing our ancestors because of how they looked

so even today if i a Black person is prejudice and unfair to a white person, its not just because of how they look, its because of what ppl that look like that have done to us (and still do in some cases) in the past

thats why i agree Black ppl cannot be racist, we dont hate u solely for being white, we dont seperate the race from history, we can be and certainly are prejudice tho, and its just as wrong as unfair, but its based on that historical connection

"I'm getting it, i'm getting, i aint talking about it, i'm living it"

blkprinceMD05 and beyond

"Not nigger, but Man"- from 47, by Walter Mosley

justification for Racism

bottom line
and yes, Black folks can be racist, if *power* is the defining issue
because on a personal/individual/situational level
Black folks can indeed have power

white people who openly express a hatred towards black people are actually expressing a hatred for a culture and a way of life that glorifies violence and doesn't reward personal achievement while it brings down the good in society and makes our cities a dirtier and more dangerous place to live.

the playing field isn't level like that

that's like saying,

"Black people who own slaves are actually perpetuating a system of oppression that maintains the superior status of African people based on economic necessity and world domination."

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it's black people's fault they are where they are. they don't think inequality in the system has anything to do with it.

according to racist black people, it's white people, because they have nice things that blacks don't have. they think it must be the system that's keeping them down.

i think it's more complicated. i think there needs to be a shift of consciousness in both blacks and whites for the situation to improve.

that maintains the status quo

race and racism is merely a product of that

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and don't just say "the white power structure."

and why do you think it's not important to change the way people think?

"The problems that face us cannot be solved at the same level of consciousness that created them. What we need is a shift in consciousness."

--Albert Einstein

"WHITE SUPREMACY: White supremacy is an historically based, institutionally perpetuated system of exploitation and oppression of continents, nations and peoples of color by white peoples and nations of the European continent; for the purpose of maintaining and defending a system of wealth, power and privilege."

>and why do you think it's not important to change the way
>people think?

by people you mean Black people?

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>"WHITE SUPREMACY: White supremacy is an historically based,
>institutionally perpetuated system of exploitation and
>oppression of continents, nations and peoples of color by
>white peoples and nations of the European continent; for the
>purpose of maintaining and defending a system of wealth, power
>and privilege."

i read the link you posted, but this isn't specific. at all. how do you feel white supremacy is realized in this country? what specific systems do we need to get rid of? capitalism? the police? education?

>by people you mean Black people?

i think i've made it clear i think people of all colors need to change. i'm merely addressing the fact that you don't seem to think black people need to.

it's not really racism that is the problem. it's white supremacy which is manifested as white, or social privilege

racism is so easy to define but hard to address as a problem (which it is) because on the surface it is viewed as universal, so we attach qualifiers such as power to better describe the real issue which is oppression and inequality. in studying historical examples and theories of oppression, it becomes clear that social (in)visibility is an important strategy.

for example, if men and women equally believe, for example, that women are by their very nature subordinate to men, then gender oppression seems natural, inevitable, timeless. if you can design structures of oppression which are invisible, which seem natural, they will be more effective than structures which are visible. if you can convince everyone, but especially members of the oppressed group itself, that the way things are is natural or inevitable or unavoidable, people will be less likely to challenge the way things are.

the best way to propagate social privilege is through institutions (law, education, etc.)...our entire social "system" is made up of them

>>by people you mean Black people?
>
>i think i've made it clear i think people of all colors need
>to change. i'm merely addressing the fact that you don't seem
>to think black people need to.

in my opinion the emphasis has been on Black people to change

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instead of trying to adjust and mangle the definition of a word that already exists

.

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but words like racism are subject to change and adjustment as we accumulate and study more and more facts. by making the definition less verbally complex you negate a whole range of occurrences that make your "true" definitions obscure and idiotic, to say the least

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>but words like racism are subject to change and adjustment as
>we accumulate and study more and more facts. by making the
>definition less verbally complex you negate a whole range of
>occurrences that make your "true" definitions obscure and
>idiotic, to say the least

wrong...by changing the definition of a word to be specific only to the extra qualifying circumstances which match up with an especially notable instance of that word, you negate ALL THE OTHER areas in which that word applies. you strip it of its true range to turn it into a magnifying glass pointed at one particularly big issue where it is present.

if you want to reference racism + power, then you need a new word that represents the combination of the 2. you can't, just for your own agenda and convenience, remove all the other instances of racism from its definition by citing a "bigger problem". keep THAT word where it is and name your bigger problem.

actually what i'm referring to is not my agenda or my problem...it belongs to all of us (unless you live outside the U.S.)

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yes...you and i could each make a very good case for THIS PARTICULAR issue being everyone's problem.

its not about WHO'S agenda it is...its about changing the meaning of words to FIT said agenda, however legit and righteous that agenda is.

words have meaning and purpose...you should not narrow the scope of "Racism" to make the word fit your concept of the "bigger problem". but i made all these points perfectly fine in my previous reply. you cite a big problem related to racism and power? great. give it a term and we can then have honest discussion

lol

>you cite a big problem related to racism
>and power? great. give it a term and we can then have honest
>discussion

where have you been?

white supremacy

white privilege

white power

what else is missing?

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then if all those terms suffice, why do you feel the need to promote a false definition of racism as well?

the only thing false here is your openness to the topic

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now you're just making things up. admit it. racism is NOT power + prejudice. power + racism IS a problem. it either already has another name, or needs a name.

and it still looks like a big part of the reason for artificially altering the definition of racism is so certain black people can let themselves off the hook and take no responsibility for their own shitty attitudes towards whites, asians, giraffes, and eskimos.

yes i care about the racial problems in society. i wouldn't sit here and subject myself to this ridiculously incestuous lefty board if i wasnt interested in building further and hearing multiple perspectives.

>yes i care about the racial problems in society

that remains to be seen

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how did you even turn me into the topic? oh yeah, i believe i was making too many actual points for an okayactivist to keep the convo on the topic any longer

.

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:)

you're white

white people always win...for now

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>it's not really racism that is the problem. it's white
>supremacy which is manifested as white, or social privilege

i thought racism *was* white supremacy (at least that's what your link said)? now i'm confused...

>racism is so easy to define but hard to address as a problem
>(which it is) because on the surface it is viewed as
>universal, so we attach qualifiers such as power to better
>describe the real issue which is oppression and inequality.

so are you finally admitting that you "attached" these ideas to racism, and changed the actual definition? this is a dangerous thing to do because: 1) most people won't understand what you're talking about, and therefore semantics will get in the way of any argument you have, 2) it places the entirety of the blame on white people and absolves all others of any negative impact their racism has, and 3) not all racist white people have the power to limit access or grant privilege, so the definition is inconsistent.

>in studying historical examples and theories of oppression, it
>becomes clear that social (in)visibility is an important
>strategy.
>
>for example, if men and women equally believe, for example,
>that women are by their very nature subordinate to men, then
>gender oppression seems natural, inevitable, timeless. if you
>can design structures of oppression which are invisible, which
>seem natural, they will be more effective than structures
>which are visible. if you can convince everyone, but
>especially members of the oppressed group itself, that the way
>things are is natural or inevitable or unavoidable, people
>will be less likely to challenge the way things are.
>
>the best way to propagate social privilege is through
>institutions (law, education, etc.)...our entire social
>"system" is made up of them

but that's not just one system. that's a way of thinking that manifests itself in different systems in ways that are not so explicit, yet we all know "there's something in the way of things." but you said "the solution is getting rid of the system," but i can't identify what specific system we need to get rid of. in order to get rid of what you're talking about here, we need a shift in consciousness of the people, like what I was talking about.

>in my opinion the emphasis has been on Black people to change

i really don't see it that way at all. according to many white people, this may be the case, but according to many black people it's the opposite. are you discrediting the opinions and emphasis of your own race in this statement?

but anyway, i don't quite see what point you're trying to make. are you trying to say they don't need to?

maybe you didn't catch my sig...lol

>i thought racism *was* white supremacy (at least that's what
>your link said)? now i'm confused...

that link defined white supremacy

>so are you finally admitting that you "attached" these ideas
>to racism, and changed the actual definition?

the actual definition is too limited. we need to make it current!

and it is one system we are talking about and it's based on a premise that feeds every subset and area that comes from it. some would call it a canon. at one point it was called The Great Chain of Being, then it became colonialism and manifest destiny...

but as it relates to racism and by extension racialized social privilege it just means that racism in of itself is not the real problem and until folks admit it we'll continue to do this dance around racism

imo the real problem is the differential possession of basic human and political rights that has become a privilege because of race

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>maybe you didn't catch my sig...lol

haha, no, i did. that's kinda why i decided to engage you.

>the actual definition is too limited. we need to make it
>current!

too limited? do you mean too vague?

>and it is one system we are talking about and it's based on a
>premise that feeds every subset and area that comes from it.
>some would call it a canon. at one point it was called The
>Great Chain of Being, then it became colonialism and manifest
>destiny...

k fine. another semantic debate. you call it a system, i call it a way of thinking. i think a system is something far more specific than what you're talking about. i do not think of white supremacy as a "system" like capitalism or law enforcement.

>but as it relates to racism and by extension racialized social
>privilege it just means that racism in of itself is not the
>real problem and until folks admit it we'll continue to do
>this dance around racism
>
>imo the real problem is the differential possession of basic
>human and political rights that has become a privilege because
>of race

look, i know what you think the problem is. you don't need to keep restating it. but not only are you not saying anything new, you're being wildly inconsistent with your usage and definition of "racism." first, you create a definition that describes what you think is the main issue, then you say that racism isn't the main issue. don't you see how this is getting in the way of your point?

>>maybe you didn't catch my sig...lol
>
>haha, no, i did. that's kinda why i decided to engage you.

it's your choice dude

>>the actual definition is too limited. we need to make it
>>current!
>
>too limited? do you mean too vague?

both

>k fine. another semantic debate. you call it a system, i
>call it a way of thinking.

is there a difference? since you love definitions so much a system is a complex of methods or rules governing behavior

>look, i know what you think the problem is. you don't need to
>keep restating it.

of course i do. it's not going to change no matter how many different ways you decide to come at it

the subject was prejudice + power= racism and racism, as a construct that governs behavior, is a means to an end

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earlier i asked you why you thought that black people have been the only ones expected to change, and if you were saying this because you thought they don't need to. i also just mentioned the inconsistency of your use of the word "racism" which you didn't respond to.

you also avoided answering a question i asked before about whether a poor white person could be racist even if they don't have the power to limit access or grant privilege.

since you can't come up with anything new, maybe answering these questions could help.

the answers are already here

>earlier i asked you why you thought that black people have
>been the only ones expected to change, and if you were saying
>this because you thought they don't need to.

and i answered it. white people who benefit the most have no other incentive to change. doing it "out of the kindness of their hearts" is not realistic.

>i also just
>mentioned the inconsistency of your use of the word "racism"
>which you didn't respond to.

i answered this, too. the definition is like a working hypothesis, subject to change and adjustment as we accumulate and study more and more facts. race is a construct, not a fact and thus racism can not be a set or firm definition, esp. in this society

>you also avoided answering a question i asked before about
>whether a poor white person could be racist even if they don't
>have the power to limit access or grant privilege.

a poor white person growing up in a trailer home can become Eminem or Britney Spears. they still can benefit from the status quo much more than a poor Black person growing up in the projects. Oprah does not count because we only have one Oprah and even she experiences racism.

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>>earlier i asked you why you thought that black people have
>>been the only ones expected to change, and if you were
>saying
>>this because you thought they don't need to.
>
>and i answered it. white people who benefit the most have no
>other incentive to change. doing it "out of the kindness of
>their hearts" is not realistic.

i wasn't asking about white people. read.

>>i also just
>>mentioned the inconsistency of your use of the word "racism"
>>which you didn't respond to.
>
>i answered this, too. the definition is like a working
>hypothesis, subject to change and adjustment as we accumulate
>and study more and more facts. race is a construct, not a
>fact and thus racism can not be a set or firm definition, esp.
>in this society

LOL, OH i'm sorry, i didn't understand that it hadn't gone through enough rigorous scientific testing. excuse me, i'll consider your use of the word at this stage to be "experimental."

look. you're inconsistent with your use of the word, and therefore your message gets distorted. this is pointless. why not just say "white supremacy" and "racism" and everyone will understand exactly what you're referring to.

>>you also avoided answering a question i asked before about
>>whether a poor white person could be racist even if they
>don't
>>have the power to limit access or grant privilege.
>
>a poor white person growing up in a trailer home can become
>Eminem or Britney Spears. they still can benefit from the
>status quo much more than a poor Black person growing up in
>the projects. Oprah does not count because we only have one
>Oprah and even she experiences racism.

you didn't answer the question. would a white person who *doesn't have the power to limit access or grant privilege* be racist, according to your definition, and why? i'm not talking about eminem or britney spears. or do you just think that all white people have that power?

and how is a white person who lives in poverty all his life benefiting from the status quo? does he have better access to education and other opportunities? better living conditions? better social services in place to help him in his situation? and furthermore, how do you know who has it harder unless you look at their situations? you can't just assume the white person has it easier just cause he's white. that's an unfair, insensitive, RACIST view of poverty.

>i wasn't asking about white people

you should be

>LOL, OH i'm sorry, i didn't understand that it hadn't gone
>through enough rigorous scientific testing

i just know you did not connect race and science...lol

>why not just say "white supremacy" and "racism" and everyone
>will understand exactly what you're referring to

impossible

>or do you just think
>that all white people have that power?

they do

>and how is a white person who lives in poverty all his life
>benefiting from the status quo? does he have better access to
>education and other opportunities? better living conditions?
>better social services in place to help him in his situation?

yes, yes, yes, yes

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i don't discriminate based on someone's race AND i work hard to level the playing field

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Yep....THE QUEEN PRETTY MUCH SUMMED IT ALL UP!!



>"WHITE SUPREMACY: White supremacy is an historically based,
>institutionally perpetuated system of exploitation and
>oppression of continents, nations and peoples of color by
>white peoples and nations of the European continent; for the
>purpose of maintaining and defending a system of wealth, power
>and privilege."
>
>>and why do you think it's not important to change the way
>>people think?
>
>by people you mean Black people?

No, some black people really do hate white people.
I'm sure within the spectrum of human diversity you can pretty much find every combination of "hate" somewhere if you look hard enough.



And some people say they "hate a system" as a rationalisation to hate particular people - white supremist blame the "jewish system" or the bankers or the hidden iluminatti elite - or whatever all the time.

Mabe its ego, or powerlessness, or the drive for power or XYZ.
who knows.


A lot of poor white people have plenty to be upset about - but the only thing thats really going to change their prediciment is reading, learning, getting tangible skills and making money. The poor white people that are miserable and attracted to cults of blame will remain in their position. Blaming the new world order or the mexican immigrants will not make their lives better. Neither will blaming the "system". Understanding realms of human knowledge and figuring out how to manuever them in ones interests is the only thing that has ever made anyones life "better". Dealing with people in a simple curtious manner will get you further than anything else - even if you don't happen to like the motherfucker your speaking with.

I use to blame the "system" when I was in highschool - then I grew up and realised the real problem was I was asking adult questions to infantilised adults ....and my parents were indifferent and plain fucking stupid.











People will pursue whatever they perceive to be in their own interests - and this is always changing because everything in life is in constant motion.

i'm actually quite hands-on about dealing with it but dealing with it every day is infuriating

>No, some black people really do hate white people.

lol...my freshman English professor (white woman) tried that by putting me on the spot in class with, "So you must think the white man is the devil" (this was after she returned my first assignment) and i pretty much gave her the shortened timeline to how i got here and ended with, "So if this happened to you and your family how would you feel about the ones who did it?" she replied, "They were devils."

it's not about hate. it's about anger and some of us have learned how to use the anger in positive ways as well as negative. unfortunately people, including the media, focus only on the negative

>And some people say they "hate a system" as a rationalisation
>to hate particular people - white supremist blame the "jewish
>system" or the bankers or the hidden iluminatti elite - or
>whatever all the time.

again, this is more about anger which is a valid and can be a productive emotion or response to adversity, whether perceived or actual

>A lot of poor white people have plenty to be upset about - but
>the only thing thats really going to change their prediciment
>is reading, learning, getting tangible skills and making
>money.

so here's where the difference is: with Black people who are well educated and skilled (and perhaps make lots of $$$) they can still experience daily racism. this is often not the case with poor white folks who manage to change their circumstances

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"
so here's where the difference is: with Black people who are well educated and skilled (and perhaps make lots of $$$) they can still experience daily racism. this is often not the case with poor white folks who manage to change their circumstances"



That doesn't have anything I said. The answer to the prediciment is still the same. Adapt.











People will pursue whatever they perceive to be in their own interests - and this is always changing because everything in life is in constant motion.

>That doesn't have anything I said. The answer to the
>prediciment is still the same. Adapt.

impossible

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No - adapt.

like I typed.







People will pursue whatever they perceive to be in their own interests - and this is always changing because everything in life is in constant motion.

it's the reason why i am here today. adaptation is not the issue here

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people adapt every second. It's a process that doesn't have a "stop" button or a "past tense". Everything your doing at this moment is an adaptation to something.


What IS the "issue" ?

n/m

<==== lurker status activate

http://colours.mahost.org/faq/definitions.html

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racism is prejudice based on race.

.

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cause that's the actual definition of the word.

now i understand that some carry an alternative definition but is it really helpful? you don't think to a certain extent black people and other oppressed groups have come up with this alternative definition to shield their own prejudice from criticism?

have you ever experienced racism and if so for how long?

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but that doesn't mean no one has judged me because of my race. i haven't suffered at all, but i've witnessed.

you didn't answer my question though.