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Subject: "The Great Global Warming Swindle" Previous topic | Next topic
The Damaja
Member since Aug 02nd 2003
18637 posts
Fri Mar-09-07 06:23 AM

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"The Great Global Warming Swindle"


  

          

did anyone see this documentary? it was on Channel 4 last night (in the UK)

basically said global warming was a crock of shit

- a whole generation of 'environmental journalists' now exists, whose livelihood depends on the validity of human caused global warming and perpetuating its presence in the news with shock reports

- the computerized weather models they use to predict global warming patterns (and attribute them to human causes) are astonishingly innaccurate because they rely on about a hundred assumptions. One scientist said that by tweaking the models slightly you can produce vast climate differences; there is a tendency for scientists working on them to do this because nobody wants to publish results that just say 'actually we didn't find anything unusual while investigating the effects of more ice melting into the ocean'

- many of the (hypothetical) effects often attributed to global warming - more weather disturbances like tornadoes, rising sea levels, spread of malaria/mosquitos across europe - don't make sense even IF you accepted the premise of global warming

- reports commissioned by the UN and stuff like that often end up being suspiciously edited to sound more sensational (removing sentences like 'there is still no proof that man has caused this warming'), with many of the scientists working on them resigning from the project but the reports still retain their names against their will in order to sound more credible ('a team of 2500 top scientists....')

- Greenland was hotter 1000 years ago

- the ice caps grow and shrink dramatically all the time, and this was known. The difference is in the last ten years we can get satellite photography showing dramatic pictures of huge bits of ice breaking off which appears on the news though it's not significant

- the global warming activism has become such a powerful voice politically that all politicians are forced to 'pay homage' to it in fear they'll lose votes

- the voices against global warming are effectively silenced ('as if you're a holocaust denier') by threats, accusations that you're on oil company's pay roll, and bosses worried about the PR of their company

- one of the most pernicious aspects of global warming activism is the idea that it's better to 'err on the side of caution.' This basically means saying to African nations that they shouldn't use their coal or oil (economic suicide), and should only use solar and wind generated electricity (far more expensive and far less effective/reliable). It seems to idealize peasantry, ignoring the terrible living conditions and health problems caused by the deprivation of electricity.

So yeah... pretty much ethered the global warming, greenhouse effect thing.

--------------------
Why do you choose to mimic these wack MCs?
Why do you choose to listen to R&B?

"There are obviously many things which we do not understand, and may never be able to." Leela

*puts emceeing in a box*

  

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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
RE: The Great Global Warming Swindle
Mar 09th 2007
1
at the start one of the guys used the analogy of a car that wouldn't sta...
Mar 09th 2007
2
      RE: at the start one of the guys used the analogy of a car that wouldn't...
Mar 09th 2007
3
           lol. flawless logic
Mar 09th 2007
7
           RE: at the start one of the guys used the analogy of a car that wouldn't...
Mar 09th 2007
9
           Uh, the earth is 4.6 billion years old...not a hundred million
Mar 09th 2007
14
           LOL
Mar 10th 2007
36
           RE: Uh, the earth is 4.6 billion years old...not a hundred million
Mar 12th 2007
61
           Your information was OLD.
Mar 12th 2007
65
                Haha
Mar 12th 2007
75
           RE: Uh, the earth is 4.6 billion years old...not a hundred million
Jun 01st 2007
150
           RE: at the start one of the guys used the analogy of a car that wouldn't...
Mar 16th 2007
107
-sigh- No, I haven't seen it.
Mar 09th 2007
4
RE: -sigh- No, I haven't seen it.
Mar 09th 2007
22
RE: -sigh- No, I haven't seen it.
Mar 10th 2007
26
      RE: -sigh- No, I haven't seen it.
Mar 10th 2007
41
           RE: -sigh- No, I haven't seen it.
Mar 12th 2007
69
                RE: -sigh- No, I haven't seen it.
Mar 17th 2007
117
obviously he was talking about results published in major periodicals
Mar 10th 2007
24
Huh???
Mar 10th 2007
27
      the person who said scientists tweak their models till the outcome
Mar 10th 2007
28
           RE: the person who said scientists tweak their models till the outcome
Mar 12th 2007
67
                Ummm - I'm not a biologist either
Mar 13th 2007
92
                     mosquitos thrive in cold temperatures...
Mar 14th 2007
94
                          ok
Mar 14th 2007
95
Is climate more predictable than weather?
May 01st 2009
154
It was and still is BULLSHIT!
Mar 09th 2007
5
i get all my info from tv documentaries
Mar 09th 2007
6
where do you get your scientists?
Mar 09th 2007
21
      from hiphop message boards LOL
Mar 10th 2007
25
           lol basically
Mar 10th 2007
31
           RE: from hiphop message boards LOL
Mar 10th 2007
33
                where then?
Mar 10th 2007
34
RE: The Great Global Warming Swindle
Mar 09th 2007
8
Strav took care of everyone....But here's a simple visual:
Mar 09th 2007
10
um, that graph says C02 levels have nearly doubled in the industrial age...
Mar 10th 2007
30
it's fairly self-explanatory
Mar 10th 2007
38
I thought so....then again...*looks around and realizes where he is*
Mar 10th 2007
39
you do understand the industrial revolution right?
Mar 10th 2007
40
      you do realize industrial emissions account for 0.43% of global C02?
Mar 11th 2007
43
           Careful...
Mar 12th 2007
64
LMAO
Dec 03rd 2009
174
It's funny because 'The Great Swindle....' uses that graph.
Dec 03rd 2009
179
      can't believe i forgot to point that out first time round
Dec 04th 2009
181
strav check the website
Mar 09th 2007
11
fox, read a book
Mar 09th 2007
13
RE: fox, read a book
Mar 12th 2007
62
      RE: fox, read a book
Mar 12th 2007
63
           archive this!
Mar 12th 2007
66
           so what you are saying is...
Mar 13th 2007
85
                You're grasping at straws,
Mar 21st 2007
130
                     love it.
Mar 21st 2007
131
Oh schitt!
Mar 09th 2007
15
RE: Oh schitt!
Mar 09th 2007
17
wheres fox? girl bounced. hilarious.
Mar 12th 2007
83
Oh shit!
Mar 09th 2007
16
at the end of the day both sides will be right and we'll still be fucked
Mar 09th 2007
12
EXACTLY!
Mar 09th 2007
18
RealClimate rebuttal:
Mar 09th 2007
19
but..but...but...
Mar 09th 2007
20
even though i've never taken Global Warming people's word for it
Mar 09th 2007
23
You don't care?
Mar 10th 2007
32
You don't read?
Mar 10th 2007
35
      You don't write well?
Mar 10th 2007
42
           no, you definitely just prefer to pass judgement before reading
Mar 11th 2007
50
lmfao.
Mar 11th 2007
46
      ^ cop-out
Mar 11th 2007
51
           it's those damn consensus-controllers!
Mar 11th 2007
57
                ummm did i say that? no
Mar 11th 2007
60
                     I get your position but....
Dec 03rd 2009
180
Here's all the proof you need: http://tinyurl.com/ysjp87
Mar 10th 2007
29
LOL @ focusing on African nations here
Mar 10th 2007
37
the documentary itself focussed on africa
Mar 11th 2007
44
      ahhhhhhh!!!
Mar 11th 2007
45
      reply 8
Mar 11th 2007
48
      *shrug* the point was
Mar 11th 2007
49
           RE: *shrug* the point was
Mar 11th 2007
52
           well the whole section of the doc. was about the activities of
Mar 11th 2007
53
                that's a terrible argument
Mar 11th 2007
54
                     the broader point was that 'better to err on the side of caution'
Mar 11th 2007
55
                          RE: the broader point was that 'better to err on the side of caution'
Mar 11th 2007
56
                               RE: the broader point was that 'better to err on the side of caution'
Mar 11th 2007
58
                                    RE: the broader point was that 'better to err on the side of caution'
Mar 11th 2007
59
           as jerseytornado said, that's exactly what kyoto proscribed
Mar 12th 2007
79
      no, it focused on Africa as a pity ploy
Mar 12th 2007
78
           lol you think they couldn't have evoked 'pity' by going to India??
Mar 13th 2007
87
                LOL is that what I said?
Mar 14th 2007
96
                     you seem to be missing the point
Mar 14th 2007
99
                          you've been avoiding this points for many, many posts
Mar 15th 2007
101
                          it's got nothing to do with the caps!
Mar 15th 2007
102
                               you're mind is just not working right now, is it?
Mar 15th 2007
103
                               RE: you're mind is just not working right now, is it?
Mar 15th 2007
104
                                    still not on, is it?
Mar 16th 2007
108
                                         RE: still not on, is it?
Mar 16th 2007
111
                                              calling me stupid?
Mar 17th 2007
113
                                                   RE: calling me stupid?
Mar 17th 2007
114
                                                        RE: calling me stupid?
Mar 17th 2007
115
                                                             RE: calling me stupid?
Mar 17th 2007
116
                               nobody in Africa thinks they are gonna get cash-rich off carbon credits
Mar 16th 2007
110
                          RE: you seem to be missing the point
Mar 16th 2007
109
                               RE: you seem to be missing the point
Mar 16th 2007
112
                                    RE: you seem to be missing the point
Mar 19th 2007
119
                                         RE: you seem to be missing the point
Mar 19th 2007
122
                                              what?
Mar 20th 2007
123
                                              RE: you seem to be missing the point
Mar 20th 2007
124
                                                   RE: you seem to be missing the point
Mar 20th 2007
129
                                                        RE: you seem to be missing the point
Mar 24th 2007
132
                                                             dawg i don't even believe this documentary
Mar 24th 2007
134
                                                                  so why u say "pretty much ethered global warming,greenhouse effect thing...
Mar 26th 2007
137
                                                                       i can't believe he said that...
Mar 26th 2007
139
                                                                            lol when someone uses the verb 'ether' in ref to a scientific debate
Mar 28th 2007
142
                                                                                 RE: lol when someone uses the verb 'ether' in ref to a scientific debate
Mar 28th 2007
143
                                                                                      RE: lol when someone uses the verb 'ether' in ref to a scientific debate
Mar 29th 2007
144
                                                                                           just...stop...please
Mar 29th 2007
145
i don't know about africa but in central america
Mar 11th 2007
47
are you serious?
Mar 12th 2007
80
probably should have read
Mar 13th 2007
88
      yes, hating Tipper Gore is a perfectly valid reason to doubt global warm...
Mar 14th 2007
98
RE: i don't know about africa but in central america
Mar 13th 2007
93
      maybe regulate the internal temperature of the planet or something
Mar 20th 2007
127
           Hmmm
Mar 26th 2007
135
Modern "Science" --Bought and PAYED FOR.
Mar 12th 2007
68
^^^ Has no idea what's going on.
Mar 12th 2007
70
      ^ should I CARE what u think?
Mar 12th 2007
71
           The scientists are on your side!
Mar 12th 2007
72
           You do KNOW there is a WORLD beyond OkPlayer,right?
Mar 12th 2007
73
                Well, I don't personally consider Canada to be a part of the world.
Mar 12th 2007
74
                ^^Canadian^^^...Explains a Lot, but not quite everything
Mar 12th 2007
76
                ^ BRILLIANT response.
Mar 12th 2007
77
                     I don't why most people can't see this angle..
Mar 12th 2007
84
                          Good response
Mar 13th 2007
86
                Please don't get me started on Malsanto
Mar 13th 2007
89
           ^^^ lives in Manitoba
Mar 12th 2007
81
                HAHA
Mar 12th 2007
82
                Manitoba..WASPY ?
Mar 13th 2007
91
                     you're white
Mar 14th 2007
97
                          But some of his best friends are black...
Mar 14th 2007
100
                          ^ YOU need to "get over" me being white ..not me.
Mar 18th 2007
118
                               ^^^ obsessive negrophile - exhibit A:
Mar 19th 2007
120
                                    ^ Quite obsessed ,aren't you?
Mar 19th 2007
121
                                         nice avy.
Mar 20th 2007
126
                                              ^ I'll leave you to your obsessions.
Mar 20th 2007
128
                                                   I'll leave you to your sad, pale white life of obsessive negro envy
Mar 24th 2007
133
                                                        .... ^^ LOL!!....
Mar 26th 2007
136
                                                             RE: .... ^^ LOL!!....
Mar 26th 2007
138
                                                                  Thats an OLD ONE..^^
Mar 27th 2007
140
                                                                       the funniest thing is, they were making fun of people like you
Mar 27th 2007
141
Hmm...
Mar 13th 2007
90
As usual, the truth lies inbetween
Mar 15th 2007
105
Thanks...
Mar 16th 2007
106
explains a lot
Mar 20th 2007
125
RE: The Great Global Warming Swindle
May 24th 2007
146
thank you, not to mention global carbon tax (n/m)
May 27th 2007
148
then why do so many gas companies fund anti-global warming
May 28th 2007
149
RE: The Great Global Warming Swindle
May 27th 2007
147
more etherage:
Apr 03rd 2009
151
Up.
May 01st 2009
152
Police Caught On Tape Trying to Recruit Protester (w/audio)
May 01st 2009
153
British scientists caught fabricating global warming data and suppressin...
Nov 21st 2009
155
RE: British scientists caught fabricating global warming data and suppre...
Nov 24th 2009
156
The media is NOT talking about it!!!
Nov 24th 2009
157
      RE: The media is NOT talking about it!!!
Nov 24th 2009
158
      dude, seriously. it's just sad how they're spinning this and
Nov 24th 2009
159
           RE: dude, seriously. it's just sad how they're spinning this and
Nov 25th 2009
160
                ^^^^
Nov 27th 2009
168
      damn pimp, can't believe your a global warming denier
Nov 25th 2009
161
      Just one article on CBS and a commentary on FOX
Nov 27th 2009
167
           RE: Just one article on CBS and a commentary on FOX
Nov 27th 2009
170
                its safe to say this will be swept
Nov 27th 2009
171
bullshit, the best scientists around the world all agree on
Nov 25th 2009
162
Yeah, that sure convinces me.
Nov 25th 2009
163
dude, all you have to do is conduct some research into the matter
Nov 26th 2009
164
seriously, do you think i listen to CNN/CNBC, i have done plenty
Dec 03rd 2009
177
RE: bullshit, the best scientists around the world all agree on
Nov 27th 2009
165
      jeez, you are an idiot, you are such a fucking cherrypicker
Dec 03rd 2009
176
Leaked e-mails suggest climate experts rigged data
Nov 27th 2009
166
Your Movement Has Been Hijacked
Nov 27th 2009
169
good breakdown of the climate-gate hack data - POTENT ETHER
Nov 28th 2009
172
Even if we pretended that this were true for a moment...
Nov 30th 2009
173
RE: Even if we pretended that this were true for a moment...
Dec 04th 2009
183
Earth could plunge into sudden ice age.... LOL!
Dec 03rd 2009
175
I'm gonna need an hour or so
Dec 03rd 2009
178
Schwarzenegger Shovels it
Dec 04th 2009
182
here, even the AP said those hijacked emails prove nothing, you nitwits ...
Dec 12th 2009
184
agreed. but it wasn't just emails that were taken
Dec 13th 2009
186
so i guess this one scientist represents the entire argument
Dec 14th 2009
188
American media outlets are spinning this if you haven't notice
Dec 14th 2009
189
RE: revisit The Power of Nightmares on youtube
Dec 13th 2009
185
jeez, you believe all this crap posted on youtbue
Dec 14th 2009
187
Yep, folks just fell off the turnip truck
Dec 14th 2009
190
PRINCE CHARLES: EXECUTIVE JET WITH BIG CARBON FOOTPRINT GETS HIM TO CLIM...
Dec 16th 2009
191
Everybody knows it's a myth to cover up
Dec 18th 2009
192
So when is global warming going to start killing people? I want it to ha...
Dec 20th 2009
193
not sure if this has been posted yet,
Dec 30th 2009
194
im honestly confused
Jan 02nd 2010
195
THAT'S ALL FOLKS
Jan 20th 2010
196
Climategate U-turn as scientist at centre of row admits: There has been ...
Feb 14th 2010
197
well if one guy says it....it must be true!
Feb 15th 2010
198
      Depends on who the one guy is
Feb 15th 2010
199
      not really
Feb 15th 2010
200
           didn't really mean this particular issue
Feb 15th 2010
201
      RE: well if one guy says it....it must be true!
Feb 15th 2010
202
Al Gore's 9 LIES
Feb 24th 2010
203

foxnesn
Charter member
5240 posts
Fri Mar-09-07 06:50 AM

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1. "RE: The Great Global Warming Swindle"
In response to Reply # 0
Fri Mar-09-07 06:55 AM by foxnesn

  

          

no but ive wanted to since i read an article about it. more and more scientists are coming out against it these days.

isnt one of the main arguements against human caused global warming that the sun has been very active the past 20 years?

this is from the site...

Others would argue that carbon dioxide isn't the only greenhouse gas and that human emissions could tip up a finely balanced system.

New evidence shows that that as the radiation coming from the sun varies (and sun-spot activity is one way of monitoring this) the earth seems to heat up or cool down. Solar activity very precisely matches the plot of temperature change over the last 100 years. It correlates well with the anomalous post-war temperature dip, when global carbon dioxide levels were rising.

  

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The Damaja
Member since Aug 02nd 2003
18637 posts
Fri Mar-09-07 07:25 AM

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2. "at the start one of the guys used the analogy of a car that wouldn't sta..."
In response to Reply # 1


  

          

and instead of checking the engine, which is the sun
or water vapour (i think that's what he said), which is the ignition
you check a little node on the rear left wheel, which is about equivalent to man's contribution to the system

of course for joe public all the real scientific dialogue is above our heads
but i think the main point was that the media and politicians now have a vested interest in the matter which is very artificial

--------------------
Why do you choose to mimic these wack MCs?
Why do you choose to listen to R&B?

"There are obviously many things which we do not understand, and may never be able to." Leela

*puts emceeing in a box*

  

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foxnesn
Charter member
5240 posts
Fri Mar-09-07 07:53 AM

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3. "RE: at the start one of the guys used the analogy of a car that wouldn't..."
In response to Reply # 2


  

          

well personally i believe that man made global warming has been overstated. if the earth has been around for almost 100 million years how does 100 years of data account for anything? and computer models predicting the future are as joke. they cant even predict next wednesdays weather accurately...

  

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smutsboy
Member since Jun 29th 2002
27675 posts
Fri Mar-09-07 11:25 AM

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7. "lol. flawless logic"
In response to Reply # 3


  

          

>and computer models predicting the future are as joke. they
>cant even predict next wednesdays weather accurately...

I'm surprised the entire world doesn't abandon computer modeling right now!

  

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stravinskian
Member since Feb 24th 2003
8850 posts
Fri Mar-09-07 11:44 AM

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9. "RE: at the start one of the guys used the analogy of a car that wouldn't..."
In response to Reply # 3
Fri Mar-09-07 11:44 AM by stravinskian

  

          

>well personally i believe that man made global warming has
>been overstated. if the earth has been around for almost 100
>million years how does 100 years of data account for anything?

We've been over this before! 100 years of data collection is not the same as 100 years of data.

>and computer models predicting the future are as joke. they
>cant even predict next wednesdays weather accurately...

Climate and weather are two very different things. If you said you were about to flip a coin, I wouldn't be able to predict the outcome. If you were about to flip a coin a thousand times in a row, then I could predict accurately that you'll get about 500 heads and 500 tails.

  

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mcdeezjawns
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26056 posts
Fri Mar-09-07 04:22 PM

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14. "Uh, the earth is 4.6 billion years old...not a hundred million"
In response to Reply # 3


  

          

  

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40thStreetBlack
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21383 posts
Sat Mar-10-07 05:19 PM

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36. "LOL"
In response to Reply # 14


  

          


<--------- Harvey BETTER

  

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foxnesn
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5240 posts
Mon Mar-12-07 04:16 AM

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61. "RE: Uh, the earth is 4.6 billion years old...not a hundred million"
In response to Reply # 14


  

          

thanks for the update.

  

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stravinskian
Member since Feb 24th 2003
8850 posts
Mon Mar-12-07 08:17 AM

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65. "Your information was OLD."
In response to Reply # 61


  

          


You should watch more TV.

  

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mcdeezjawns
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26056 posts
Mon Mar-12-07 01:03 PM

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75. "Haha"
In response to Reply # 65


  

          

>
>You should watch more TV.
>

  

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Magnificent001
Member since Sep 11th 2003
219 posts
Fri Jun-01-07 10:37 AM

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150. "RE: Uh, the earth is 4.6 billion years old...not a hundred million"
In response to Reply # 14


  

          

It's interesting that one would not find the climate theory credible because of varying views & the technology used to support it but believe in the methods used to date the earth..

in short says who..? them?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

myspace.com/magnificent001

Be Good or Be Good @ It..
Peace...
Magnificent001

  

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ConcreteCharlie
Member since Nov 21st 2002
46372 posts
Fri Mar-16-07 11:49 AM

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107. "RE: at the start one of the guys used the analogy of a car that wouldn't..."
In response to Reply # 3


  

          

That's a flawed understanding of ... well, pretty much everything related to anything you just said.

The data does not only look at the last 100 years, it looks at how that period (read: industrialization) has DIFFERED from the rest of documented existence.

Furthermore, the earth is lot fucking older than that, like 40 times older, which is significant dealing with a number that size.

<<< Ben Revere's midnight WHOO-RIDE

  

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stravinskian
Member since Feb 24th 2003
8850 posts
Fri Mar-09-07 10:10 AM

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4. "-sigh- No, I haven't seen it."
In response to Reply # 0
Fri Mar-09-07 10:47 AM by stravinskian

  

          

I also haven't seen "Loose Change," or Ken Ham's gripping exposes debunking evolution or the big bang "theory."


>basically said global warming was a crock of shit

Somehow I'm skeptical.

>- a whole generation of 'environmental journalists' now
>exists, whose livelihood depends on the validity of human
>caused global warming and perpetuating its presence in the
>news with shock reports

I've never met an "environmental journalist" in my life. There are plenty of science journalists out there, is that what they mean?

Anyway, the sorry state of modern journalism is a totally separate issue. If you want to know about the scientific status of anthropogenic global warming, you don't ask journalists, you ask scientists. Lo and behold, someone has:

http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/306/5702/1686


>- the computerized weather models

First of all, we're talking about climate, not weather. The two things are *very* different.

>they use to predict global
>warming patterns (and attribute them to human causes) are
>astonishingly innaccurate because they rely on about a hundred
>assumptions.

Astonishingly inaccurate, huh?

http://www.realclimate.org/figure1_hansen05.jpg

>One scientist said that by tweaking the models
>slightly you can produce vast climate differences;

One scientist, huh? I wonder who that one scientist is, and what he or she works on. Anyway, there are thousands of scientists, including those who do the modeling, who would disagree.

>there is a
>tendency for scientists working on them to do this because
>nobody wants to publish results that just say 'actually we
>didn't find anything unusual while investigating the effects
>of more ice melting into the ocean'

That really isn't how science works. I published a paper just the other day whose bottom line result was that I've spent the last three years working on a project that never could have been a success. I wasn't the least bit embarrassed by this, it was a standard scientific paper, as good as any other.

In fact, if a scientist is going to misrepresent his work, he has more motivation to *underestimate* his understanding of the subject. If I make a claim of certainty on a point that is actually false, then all it takes is for one person to repeat my work to show me to be a fraud and ruin my career.

More to the point, the community as a whole is also more motivated to understate its grasp of a subject, particularly in a field like climate science. Seriously, the scientific consensus is "we understand the science, it's time for political action." They are coming right out and saying that *their job is done*! If they came out George Bush style and said, "sorry, it's an important question, but still too complicated for us to handle," *then* they would be encouraging further research, and further funding.

I know this firsthand. I work in numerical relativity, basically we do "computer modeling" of the astrophysics of black holes and neutron stars. The field has been around for about thirty years now, making very slow progress, so people have built entire careers on the long, tough slog trying to bridge the gap from numerics to astrophysics. For the last decade we've been held up on very subtle issues relating to the stability of the simulations. Last year, two breakthrough occurred, finally putting the most interesting and exciting astrophysical processes within our grasp. The field is finally mature. Does this help my job prospects? No, because I've put all my PhD work into these problems that have finally been solved. It's nice that they've been solved, but it means there's nothing left for me to do. Now I need to find a new field to work in.

As unscientific as it is, sometimes I wish we had understated our understanding of our work for a few more years, but it's our duty to be honest, so that's what we do.

>- many of the (hypothetical) effects often attributed to
>global warming - more weather disturbances like tornadoes,
>rising sea levels, spread of malaria/mosquitos across europe -
>don't make sense even IF you accepted the premise of global
>warming

I don't know what exactly you mean by "don't make sense." To people like you and me, plenty of things "don't make sense," but are nonetheless true.

Admittedly, some issues, like the relationship between climate and weather, the details of how climate warming can increase the frequency and severity of hurricanes, for instance, are subjects under heavy debate. But we'd obviously like to avoid the experiment. The relationship between climate and sea level is, to the best of my knowledge, completely understood. Anyone who doubts the science on that point either doesn't know what he's talking about, or is being intentionally misleading.

>- reports commissioned by the UN and stuff like that often

Often?

>end
>up being suspiciously edited to sound more sensational
>(removing sentences like 'there is still no proof that man has
>caused this warming'), with many of the scientists working on
>them resigning from the project but the reports still retain
>their names against their will in order to sound more credible
>('a team of 2500 top scientists....')

I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at. I do remember hearing about a few IPCC members being unhappy with some of the wording in the latest SPM (and aren't we all a little unhappy with SPM these days?), mainly because they weren't comfortable with the context of the report, the difference between a scientific paper and a "summary for policy makers." That said, the vast majority of the IPCC stand solidly behind the SPM, and it's certainly had far more scientific vetting than this "documentary."

>- Greenland was hotter 1000 years ago

What?! A lot of nonsense has been claimed about Greenland, and I can only assume this is more of that. At any rate, again, climate and weather are two different things.

>- the ice caps grow and shrink dramatically all the time, and
>this was known. The difference is in the last ten years we can
>get satellite photography showing dramatic pictures of huge
>bits of ice breaking off which appears on the news though it's
>not significant

It has been known for quite some time that ice caps grow and shrink. This is how icebergs form. But in fact the recent decays, particularly in antarctic ice sheets, have been *much* faster than what were once considered overstated predictions. So no, this claim is flat-out wrong.

>- the global warming activism has become such a powerful
>voice politically that all politicians are forced to 'pay
>homage' to it in fear they'll lose votes

If only it were so! I mean it's good to see even John McCain saying that "the time for skepticism is over," but I must admit that I'd be surprised to see him make good on his claim that "the time for action is now."

At any rate, the politicians should be forced to "pay homage" to the fact of global warming. That is their job.

>- the voices against global warming are effectively silenced
>('as if you're a holocaust denier') by threats, accusations
>that you're on oil company's pay roll, and bosses worried
>about the PR of their company

It's easy to avoid the accusation that you're "on an oil company's payroll." Don't go on an oil company's payroll!

>- one of the most pernicious aspects of global warming
>activism is the idea that it's better to 'err on the side of
>caution.'

Well, isn't it?

>This basically means saying to African nations that
>they shouldn't use their coal or oil (economic suicide), and
>should only use solar and wind generated electricity (far more
>expensive and far less effective/reliable).

The deniers seem to want it both ways on this issue. They criticize the Kyoto protocol for unfairly singling out industrialized nations, being too lenient on undeveloped countries. Now you seem to be telling us that we're being too hard on the undeveloped countries.

The answer isn't very complicated. It's the job of the industrialized nations to use our technological and scientific prowess to end our contribution to the problem. In that process, we'll make it economically viable for poorer countries to follow in our footsteps.

>It seems to
>idealize peasantry, ignoring the terrible living conditions
>and health problems caused by the deprivation of electricity.
>
>So yeah... pretty much ethered the global warming, greenhouse
>effect thing.

No, it didn't. You just came to that conclusion because that's what you wanted it to do.




But let's be skeptical. Here's something I just came across, an excerpt from Bertrand Russel's "Skeptical Essays":

I wish to propose for the reader's favorable consideration a doctrine
which may, I fear, appear wildly paradoxical and subversive. The
doctrine is this: that it is undesirable to believe a proposition when
there is no ground whatever for supposing it true.

First of all, I wish to guard myself against being thought to take up
an extreme position. ... Pyrrho maintained that we never know enough
to be sure that one course of action is wiser than another. In his
youth, ... he saw his teacher with his head stuck in a ditch, unable
to get out. After contemplating him for some time, he walked on,
maintaining that there was no sufficient ground for thinking that he
would do any good by pulling the old man out. ... Now I do not
advocate such heroic scepticism as that. I am prepared to admit the
ordinary beliefs of common sense, in practice if not in theory. I am
prepared to admit any well-established result of science, not as
certainly true, but as sufficiently probable to afford a basis for
rational action.

....

There are matters about which those who have investigated them are
agreed. There are other matters about which experts are not agreed.
Even when experts all agree, they may well be mistaken. ....
Nevertheless, the opinion of experts, when it is unanimous, must be
accepted by non-experts as more likely to be right than the opposite
opinion. The scepticism that I advocate amounts only to this: (1) that
when the experts are agreed, the opposite opinion cannot be held to be
certain; (2) that when they are not agreed, no opinion can be regarded
as certain by a non-expert; and (3) that when they all hold that no
sufficient grounds for a positive opinion exist, the ordinary man
would do well to suspend his judgment.



We're in situation (1), here, so by Russel's judgment, this documentary is not an example of healthy skepticism.

  

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jane eyre
Member since Jan 16th 2007
506 posts
Fri Mar-09-07 07:31 PM

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22. "RE: -sigh- No, I haven't seen it."
In response to Reply # 4
Fri Mar-09-07 07:36 PM by jane eyre

          

i think we should date. even if you're a girl.

i used to think global warming was a crock. not anymore. about two years ago, i decided to pour through all kinds of things-- some things i didn't understand, some things i did. sometimes i didn't even understand why i was looking at something, but i persisted. one thing i'm bad about is being able to look at data or studies and draw my own scientific conclusions. honestly? it's worse than being bad at it, i can't! but i could atleast look at the data/studies and come to some conclusions about what's probable, on my own. one thing that suprised me-- there's a lot of areas that can be examined (well, areas that i didn't know about or expect), that hook up with the global warming issue. if i was unsure about findings in one place, all i had to do was look at another area of study, only to find some of the same issues being raised. i found out a little bit about what scientists are working with and the things they've learned and how they know it, when it comes to this issue. it was suprising to me that scientist could disagree about things in the way that they do.

as a very dumb science-layperson, i'm perplexed that the scientific community, (which in my layperson world should provide some clear knowns and unknowns)is making it difficult to gauge what study has credibility and what doesn't. it makes me think that maybe there's some friendly rivalry going on? to say that global warming doesn't exist, and that people don't contribute to it, is quite an amazing thing to say, even if there is a level of skepticism about the evidence. i don't see how the skepticism about what a lot of scientist are more or less saying, leaves the door open to say: absolutely not. now it's becoming hard to tell what's probable and not probable about global warming. i hope that humanity doesn't keep pressing the "hmmmm i don't know" button, though.

come gather 'round people
wherever you roam
and admit that the waters
around you have grown
and accept it that soon
you'll be drenched to the bone.
if your time to you
is worth savin'
then you better start swimmin'
or sink like a stone
for the times they are a-changin'

perhaps the doom and gloom trumpets shouldn't be playing yet. but bare minimum, it looks like there will be a new set of problems that's on our hands because of some changes. we could atleast be prepared. and it's not like some of the changes that people are proposing would be all that horrible if we'd never heard the word global warming.

my question to you scientist person, is: how much of the "there is no global warming" stuff has significant credibility? and why come some scientists seeing it that way? thanks.

  

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stravinskian
Member since Feb 24th 2003
8850 posts
Sat Mar-10-07 05:45 AM

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26. "RE: -sigh- No, I haven't seen it."
In response to Reply # 22


  

          

>i think we should date. even if you're a girl.

Ha! Careful, I'm a science nerd, so you know I'll never turn down a lady. Inbox if you're in the LA area.


> to
>say that global warming doesn't exist, and that people don't
>contribute to it, is quite an amazing thing to say, even if
>there is a level of skepticism about the evidence. i don't see
>how the skepticism about what a lot of scientist are more or
>less saying, leaves the door open to say: absolutely not.

That's why I was so taken with that excerpt I posted from Bertrand Russell. The fact that such an overwhelming majority of the community is agreed on the outlines and on the details, it makes the claim that we hear all too often in pop culture - that it's "a crock of shit" - a claim that is too strong to be taken seriously without similarly extraordinary evidence, which is never provided. People can argue about the details, and they do, and they can even dispute the entire idea, but the burden of proof is on them nowadays, and it's a tough burden to overcome.


>my question to you scientist person, is: how much of the
>"there is no global warming" stuff has significant
>credibility?

I hate to say it so starkly, but off the top of my head, I can't think of a single out-and-out denial hypothesis with any credibility, either of the warming itself or of its human cause. There is, or at least was, the old solar variability hypothesis, but like I said in a few other posts in this thread, it was never widely accepted and its main motivation was lost after improvements in data analysis last year.

>and why come some scientists seeing it that way?

That's a really tough question. I guess the only answer is that sometimes scientists, individual scientists, just get ahead of themselves and say things they can't justify, then they stick to their guns when someone else calls them on it. Nobody's immune to it. Julian Schwinger put years of serious thought into cold fusion. Richard Feynman had some bizarre beliefs about gravitation theory. Albert Einstein, an inventor of quantum mechanics and a master of its application, ignored it for decades while he was working on his supposedly fundamental "unified field theory." No credential can ever act as a guarantee against stupidity or vanity. This is why science is driven by a community, not by individuals. The whole is far more dependable than the sum of its parts.

  

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jane eyre
Member since Jan 16th 2007
506 posts
Sat Mar-10-07 05:53 PM

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41. "RE: -sigh- No, I haven't seen it."
In response to Reply # 26
Sat Mar-10-07 05:56 PM by jane eyre

          

>>i think we should date. even if you're a girl.
>
>Ha! Careful, I'm a science nerd, so you know I'll never turn
>down a lady. Inbox if you're in the LA area.

if a black girl could blush....

we're at opposite ends of the country. i wish we weren't because now your inbox is officially off-limits. unless there's an LA in my part of the country that i don't know about??? but i won't lose heart-- maybe plate tectonics will play a hand in bringing us closer together!

>That's why I was so taken with that excerpt I posted from
>Bertrand Russell. The fact that such an overwhelming majority
>of the community is agreed on the outlines and on the details,
>it makes the claim that we hear all too often in pop culture -
>that it's "a crock of shit" - a claim that is too strong to be
>taken seriously without similarly extraordinary evidence,
>which is never provided. People can argue about the details,
>and they do, and they can even dispute the entire idea, but
>the burden of proof is on them nowadays, and it's a tough
>burden to overcome.

i smiled about the russell quote. i apply it to a lot more things than just the discussion about global warming. the quote points out a general contemporary frame of reference. it's no secret that i think some types of skepticism are extremely paralyzing. borderline insane! even when there are unknowns, even when there are things a person can't know and can't be sure about, concrete conclusions are possible and can be pretty trustable. which also means that there's a good chance that it's possible to exclude some stuff from the table. anyhow, what's so bad about believing or seeing the wrong thing? human beings have a track record of making gigantic errors and believing silly things. what puzzles me about some kinds of skepticism is that things like evidence, "knowns", and most-likely-probables, get painted as just another shade of possible proof in a big skeptical puzzle that's pursuing the truth. at some point, if it looks like a duck and quacks, i'd say it's a duck. but i'd also be ok with saying: it's probably a duck. on the off chance that it isn't, back to the drawing board.

it's ironic to me that in a pretty much pro-science culture, there's as strong of a backlash as there is about this. some believe that science has proven there's no possibility of a supreme being existing, but have reservations about global warming, a phenomena that has effects that can now be seen with the naked eye. plus, american politicians and policy makers especially love a good, hardcore, scientific study. it's not as if the scientific community, by presenting evidence, is stirring the pot and forcing a much needed ethical debate that should happen before "we proceed". atleast not an ethical for the same reasons and in the same way that people might want to discuss stem-cells or genetic engineering. i haven't found that the problem is the scientific evidence (even in places where there are differences about details). i think the problem is that people, or groups of people, for whatever reason, don't take the evidence seriously. maybe it's the cost? or the doom and gloom "this is bad" message? it sounds far-fetched? like it's reaching for straws? the hippy agenda rearing it's ugly granola head? i don't know.

i was listening to one of npr's science friday shows. people were calling in and talking with a lady that specialized in glacial ice and an i-know-all-about-oceans-lady. callers started trying to brainstorm ideas about how to slow down the warming process. most of the ideas ignored the human factor. some of the ideas were pretty creative, but in the long run the ideas were costly, seemed improbable, and would only contribute to an already snowballing situation. so. once again science boy:

solutions? what's one practical solution that a single person can work on? what's one practical solution that the scientific community can work on?

  

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stravinskian
Member since Feb 24th 2003
8850 posts
Mon Mar-12-07 09:55 AM

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69. "RE: -sigh- No, I haven't seen it."
In response to Reply # 41


  

          

>>>i think we should date. even if you're a girl.
>>
>>Ha! Careful, I'm a science nerd, so you know I'll never
>turn
>>down a lady. Inbox if you're in the LA area.
>
>if a black girl could blush....
>
>we're at opposite ends of the country. i wish we weren't
>because now your inbox is officially off-limits. unless
>there's an LA in my part of the country that i don't know
>about??? but i won't lose heart-- maybe plate tectonics will
>play a hand in bringing us closer together!

Or maybe the sea level will rise enough that I'll have to move away from the coast.



>it's ironic to me that in a pretty much pro-science culture,
>there's as strong of a backlash as there is about this.

I don't know if our culture is as pro-science as we like to think, at least not nowadays. We want a concept of "scientific truth" to "prove us right" when we think we're right, but we don't want it to prove us wrong.

On the next Maury: each side takes a lie detector test, and we'll prove whether everyone should vote Democratic or Republican.

>some
>believe that science has proven there's no possibility of a
>supreme being existing, but have reservations about global
>warming, a phenomena that has effects that can now be seen
>with the naked eye. plus, american politicians and policy
>makers especially love a good, hardcore, scientific study.
>it's not as if the scientific community, by presenting
>evidence, is stirring the pot and forcing a much needed
>ethical debate that should happen before "we proceed". atleast
>not an ethical for the same reasons and in the same way that
>people might want to discuss stem-cells or genetic
>engineering. i haven't found that the problem is the
>scientific evidence (even in places where there are
>differences about details). i think the problem is that
>people, or groups of people, for whatever reason, don't take
>the evidence seriously.

Exactly! They call it evidence when it supports their predetermined position. If it doesn't, they just ignore it.

>maybe it's the cost? or the doom and
>gloom "this is bad" message? it sounds far-fetched? like it's
>reaching for straws? the hippy agenda rearing it's ugly
>granola head? i don't know.
>
>i was listening to one of npr's science friday shows. people
>were calling in and talking with a lady that specialized in
>glacial ice and an i-know-all-about-oceans-lady. callers
>started trying to brainstorm ideas about how to slow down the
>warming process. most of the ideas ignored the human factor.
>some of the ideas were pretty creative, but in the long run
>the ideas were costly, seemed improbable, and would only
>contribute to an already snowballing situation. so. once again
>science boy:
>
>solutions? what's one practical solution that a single person
>can work on?

Well, for individuals, all I can think of is the obvious. Avoid unnecessary energy consumption. Of course that's a very vague statement. Do Americans "need" to use more energy than, say, residents of Baghdad who are now getting used to having power for only a few hours a day? Do we really "need" power at all? Maybe an argument can be made. I dunno, it's an ugly discussion that I'd like to avoid. I do my bit, don't drive a car except on rare occasions, take limited air travel, turn off lights when they aren't needed. But I really don't see how personal conservation can be the deciding factor.

>what's one practical solution that the scientific
>community can work on?

Here is where I put more of my personal hope, maybe just because of my familiarity with this end. That said, it's a stunningly difficult problem. I saw a presentation at last year's April meeting of the American physical society, where an expert went right down to the level of energy budgeting. He was motivated less by the climate crisis than by the "energy crisis," the lesser-known problem that we simply seem to be running out of fossil fuels, so we may have to get off of them whether we like it or not.

So he added up all of the energy that we could hope to gather from "alternative sources." Wind, hydroelectric, solar, fission, probably a few things I'm forgetting. He literally calculated the total power that is held in average wind fluxes over all of the world, he added the total potential energy in all of the water in all of the rivers on the world. He added an optimistic estimate of the power that could possibly come from realistic solar technology that could realistically be deployed in the near term. And the result still paled in comparison to the current rate of world energy consumption. As I remember, to make up the difference, he had to hope that a nuclear fission plant would be built somewhere in the world every single day from now until 2015. (and, of course, that's not gonna happen, and even if it did, we'd have nowhere to put that much waste)

His best hope was that there'd be a revolution in solar cell technology. He said that we would probably be able to supplant fossil fuels if we could create solar cells of comparable efficiency to those that exist today as long as their production cost could be reduced to that of carpet. Ordinary carpet, like on the floor. In other words, he's hoping for nothing less than a revolution in solar technology.

Another possibility, and one that might be more realistic, is thermonuclear fusion. In principle, it could be more efficient than fission, and with little or no harmful waste. I say, "in principle," because as yet that principle has not yet met with reality. Currently we seem to be at the stage of bringing the efficiency past zero. That is, in such things as the ITER experiment,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ITER ,

we're hoping to build a proof of concept, that a fusion reactor can produce more energy than we put in. So for all its promise, it's at best a long-term possibility.

For the near term, there may be hope for "carbon sequestration" technology, where ordinary fuels are burned, but the CO_2 is "captured" and not allowed into the atmosphere. This, however, is a contentious subject, and I have very little idea where it stands. It also would be of little help when we simply run out of fossil fuels.



So, sadly, I can't offer any real answers, either on the personal level or the technological level. That's maybe why I've never really been active on the conservation movement. For all I know, it may be a lost cause. The main reason I come into these threads to argue about global warming is that I (as you can see in this thread) get a little angry when sound science is misrepresented for political purposes.

  

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jane eyre
Member since Jan 16th 2007
506 posts
Sat Mar-17-07 09:56 PM

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117. "RE: -sigh- No, I haven't seen it."
In response to Reply # 69


          

>> maybe plate tectonics will
>>play a hand in bringing us closer together!
>
>Or maybe the sea level will rise enough that I'll have to move
>away from the coast.

how sweet. between tectonics and sea-levels, i'm starting to warm up to the odds.

>>it's ironic to me that in a pretty much pro-science culture,
>>there's as strong of a backlash as there is about this.
>
>I don't know if our culture is as pro-science as we like to
>think, at least not nowadays. We want a concept of
>"scientific truth" to "prove us right" when we think we're
>right, but we don't want it to prove us wrong.

you're right. lol. i was setting a naughty trap by using the word pro-science in the first place. things are definitely a lot closer to being how you've described.

since i have the ear of a scientist...

as a scientist, what does the truth mean to you, if anything? how does science influence you in that regard, if at all? do you think about global warming in terms of "this is true" "this is not true"? if not, why?

i ask that b/c...in the thread there seems to be an obsession with knowing the truth: omg is this true!? how can we know this is true!? this isn't true! this is true!

i'm curious about what you think about that. i mean..you've partly answered that b/c you said that you get mad when people misrepresent things for political agendas and all. but i'm interested in whether or not you think anything else about that.

>On the next Maury: each side takes a lie detector test, and
>we'll prove whether everyone should vote Democratic or
>Republican.

glory glory halleluuuuujah
the truth is marching on

it's amazing how difficult it is to get information that doesn't feel like it's been tainted by a used-car salesman's pitch.

>>solutions? what's one practical solution that a single
>person
>>can work on?
>
>Well, for individuals, all I can think of is the obvious.
>Avoid unnecessary energy consumption. Of course that's a very
>vague statement. Do Americans "need" to use more energy than,
>say, residents of Baghdad who are now getting used to having
>power for only a few hours a day? Do we really "need" power
>at all? Maybe an argument can be made. I dunno, it's an ugly
>discussion that I'd like to avoid. I do my bit, don't drive a
>car except on rare occasions, take limited air travel, turn
>off lights when they aren't needed. But I really don't see
>how personal conservation can be the deciding factor.

the important part seems to be: do my bit. more people are, which is better than a few. i have friends, mainly american, who hang on to the viewpoint that the things you're talking about cutting back on, are luxuries they're entitled to.

another reason i asked about this...it feels like a really helpless, huge, situation. my inclination is to go: shoot what can i do? are there things like "coalitions" and such stuff that people can give to, financially or otherwise?

>>what's one practical solution that the scientific
>>community can work on?
>
>His best hope was that there'd be a revolution in solar cell
>technology. He said that we would probably be able to
>supplant fossil fuels if we could create solar cells of
>comparable efficiency to those that exist today as long as
>their production cost could be reduced to that of carpet.
>Ordinary carpet, like on the floor. In other words, he's
>hoping for nothing less than a revolution in solar technology.

taking into consideration the guy's calculations and his hope for a solar technology revolution, it's starting to feel like we've blown through our lottery money.

>
>Another possibility, and one that might be more realistic, is
>thermonuclear fusion. In principle, it could be more
>efficient than fission, and with little or no harmful waste.
>I say, "in principle," because as yet that principle has not
>yet met with reality. Currently we seem to be at the stage of
>bringing the efficiency past zero. That is, in such things as
>the ITER experiment,
>
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ITER

oh! ok. thanks for the link.

>
>we're hoping to build a proof of concept, that a fusion
>reactor can produce more energy than we put in. So for all
>its promise, it's at best a long-term possibility.

is that science speak for: it has a bigger chance of being abandoned than it does of actually happening?

>For the near term, there may be hope for "carbon
>sequestration" technology, where ordinary fuels are burned,
>but the CO_2 is "captured" and not allowed into the
>atmosphere. This, however, is a contentious subject, and I
>have very little idea where it stands. It also would be of
>little help when we simply run out of fossil fuels.

hmm.

i keep hoping there's some out of the blue jackpot. along the lines of the solar revolution hope, but something that hasn't dawned on the scientific community yet. something that opens up a lot of possibilities. i remember when i read stuff about the history of physics...newtonian to quantum was a big step. maybe there's a step like that when it comes to the science involved with global warming?

>So, sadly, I can't offer any real answers, either on the
>personal level or the technological level. That's maybe why
>I've never really been active on the conservation movement.
>For all I know, it may be a lost cause. The main reason I
>come into these threads to argue about global warming is that
>I (as you can see in this thread) get a little angry when
>sound science is misrepresented for political purposes.

this qualifies as a real answer to me. i didn't expect something neat and tidy. plus, it kinda tells me a little bit about the scope of what's going on. the things you've said aren't all that drastically different from other stuff i've looked at.

so...let me ask you...how do you think this will effect the human race in the long run?

a lot of things get misrepresented! one of the most frustrating experiences i've had is taking the time to make a point and someone replying: that's just your opinion, that's just what you see, that's your interpretation, your worldview...cuz guess what, i know something else and i can prove it! it's strange that the merits and sometimes the "truth" of a position can be called into question on those grounds, to the extent that it is. sometimes common sense gets colored as an agenda or any other opinion and viewpoint that can be disproved or knocked down.

at any rate, by the time this debate is finished, you'll have migrated out of LA.

  

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The Damaja
Member since Aug 02nd 2003
18637 posts
Sat Mar-10-07 05:22 AM

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24. "obviously he was talking about results published in major periodicals"
In response to Reply # 4


  

          

and not just the personal publishing of scientific studies in academic journals

--------------------
Why do you choose to mimic these wack MCs?
Why do you choose to listen to R&B?

"There are obviously many things which we do not understand, and may never be able to." Leela

*puts emceeing in a box*

  

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stravinskian
Member since Feb 24th 2003
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27. "Huh???"
In response to Reply # 24
Sat Mar-10-07 05:52 AM by stravinskian

  

          


Who?

  

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The Damaja
Member since Aug 02nd 2003
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28. "the person who said scientists tweak their models till the outcome"
In response to Reply # 27


  

          

is suitably catastrophic that someone will want to publish them
obviously they'll get published anyway if it was a serious project but he was referring to scoops in the mainstream media
new scientist and scientific american, national geographic and beyond

also as to the 'ridiculous science' thing, they were saying
1. malaria is not a tropical disease so the scaremongering about global warming spreading it north is nonsense
2. textbook theories would indicate that a normalization of temperature discrepancies (the poles getting warmer) would lead to less weather disturbancies, but this is rarely mentioned and instead severe storms are often attributed to global warming by the mainstream news
3. 'rising sea levels' is more often in reality movement of the land. but when the sea really does rise i's due to deep sea thermal expansion which is an enormously slow process that takes a long time to react to any surface events

--------------------
Why do you choose to mimic these wack MCs?
Why do you choose to listen to R&B?

"There are obviously many things which we do not understand, and may never be able to." Leela

*puts emceeing in a box*

  

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stravinskian
Member since Feb 24th 2003
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Mon Mar-12-07 08:39 AM

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67. "RE: the person who said scientists tweak their models till the outcome"
In response to Reply # 28


  

          

>is suitably catastrophic that someone will want to publish
>them
>obviously they'll get published anyway if it was a serious
>project but he was referring to scoops in the mainstream
>media
>new scientist and scientific american, national geographic and
>beyond

*rolls eyes*
So they're accusing scientists of "tweaking their models" to get into Scientific American? Yet somehow the Scientific-American-bait also finds its way into the IPCC summaries?

http://www.grida.no/climate/ipcc_tar/wg1/figspm-4.htm


>also as to the 'ridiculous science' thing, they were saying
>1. malaria is not a tropical disease so the scaremongering
>about global warming spreading it north is nonsense

I'm not gonna argue about Malaria because I don't know enough biology. But I do know that this claim was made in the "Great Global Warming Swindle" TV show, so from what I know of the show, chances are the claim is misleading or outright false.

>2. textbook theories would indicate that a normalization of
>temperature discrepancies (the poles getting warmer) would
>lead to less weather disturbancies,

Um, just to state the obvious, "the poles getting warmer" does not necessarily equate with a "normalization of temperature discrepancies."

>but this is rarely
>mentioned and instead severe storms are often attributed to
>global warming by the mainstream news

I can remember just as many news stories, particularly around Katrina, saying "scientists have shown" that it was due to "natural, long-term weather cycles."

That said, there is a solid and growing understanding that increasing temperatures near the ocean surface will on average drive stronger and more frequent hurricanes. This much *should* be mentioned in the mainstream news.

>3. 'rising sea levels' is more often in reality movement of
>the land. but when the sea really does rise i's due to deep
>sea thermal expansion which is an enormously slow process that
>takes a long time to react to any surface events

You mean to say it's "normally" due to deep sea thermal expansion. Abnormal occurrences, such as an abnormal increase in the volume of liquid water, can have just as much effect. So this claim appears to be an outright mislead.

  

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chief1284
Member since Nov 08th 2004
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92. "Ummm - I'm not a biologist either"
In response to Reply # 67


  

          

But I do know mosquitos live in warm and wet areas (ie. tropical areas). And I also know mosquitos transmit malaria. So put 2+2 together and the warming of northerly areas = the spread of malaria.

------------------------------------------------------------

Check my man Lao at www.myspace.com/lazzriel

  

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The Damaja
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94. "mosquitos thrive in cold temperatures..."
In response to Reply # 92


  

          

the worst ever epidemic was in northern russia, killed 20 million people or something

--------------------
Why do you choose to mimic these wack MCs?
Why do you choose to listen to R&B?

"There are obviously many things which we do not understand, and may never be able to." Leela

*puts emceeing in a box*

  

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chief1284
Member since Nov 08th 2004
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95. "ok"
In response to Reply # 94


  

          

I know nothing nor could I google anything on that Russian episode, so I'd love hear about it.

But actually there are many, many vareties of mosquitos, and yes some can live in the colder north, and some of those do spread dengue fever, or yellow fever. BUT only one type (I don't remember the name) carries malaria, and that type only lives in tropical regions. So aside from this whole debate on climate change, if it is true and northerly areas become more tropical, I'm pretty damn sure malaria will spread north. Though it can be battled pretty effectively in rich western countries with enough determination I expect.

------------------------------------------------------------

Check my man Lao at www.myspace.com/lazzriel

  

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Cocobrotha2
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154. "Is climate more predictable than weather?"
In response to Reply # 4


          


>First of all, we're talking about climate, not weather. The
>two things are *very* different.

I'm still a little skeptical that global warming IS man-made because it seems like two basically proven things (that excess CO2 can cause global warming AND that the globe IS warming) have been combined into a statement that seems a little TOO definite.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I didn't think climatology was at the point where it could reliably predict the climate. I mean, how hot SHOULD we be today, tomorrow, 5 years from now? Don't we need to know that in order to know if we're causing this warming... and if so, how much we're causing?

The knowledge that our CO2 emissions at least COULD be causing global warming is enough for me to agree that we should try to cut our emissions, but it feels COULD is being overstated into IS in order to get the desired policy changes.

Since I bet someone is working to quantify our effect on global warming, I hope the overstatements don't compromise the message if the effect is eventually quantified to be much less than expected.

<-><-><-><-><-><-><-><-><->
<-><-><-><-><-><-><-><-><->

  

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Earl Flynn
Member since Dec 08th 2005
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Fri Mar-09-07 10:44 AM

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5. "It was and still is BULLSHIT!"
In response to Reply # 0
Fri Mar-09-07 10:45 AM by Earl Flynn

  

          

Global Warming that is....

Each progressive spirit is opposed by a thousand mediocre minds appointed to guard the past. ~
Maurice Maeterlinck

  

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smutsboy
Member since Jun 29th 2002
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Fri Mar-09-07 11:24 AM

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6. "i get all my info from tv documentaries"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

eff scientists!

ps. stravinskian ethered yall for like the 1000th time.

  

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Jon
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21. "where do you get your scientists?"
In response to Reply # 6


  

          

  

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The Damaja
Member since Aug 02nd 2003
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25. "from hiphop message boards LOL"
In response to Reply # 21


  

          

potent ether

--------------------
Why do you choose to mimic these wack MCs?
Why do you choose to listen to R&B?

"There are obviously many things which we do not understand, and may never be able to." Leela

*puts emceeing in a box*

  

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Jon
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31. "lol basically"
In response to Reply # 25


  

          

>potent ether

  

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smutsboy
Member since Jun 29th 2002
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33. "RE: from hiphop message boards LOL"
In response to Reply # 25


  

          

nope.

  

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Jon
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34. "where then?"
In response to Reply # 33


  

          

  

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thejerseytornado
Member since Dec 24th 2005
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Fri Mar-09-07 11:31 AM

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8. "RE: The Great Global Warming Swindle"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

>- one of the most pernicious aspects of global warming
>activism is the idea that it's better to 'err on the side of
>caution.' This basically means saying to African nations that
>they shouldn't use their coal or oil (economic suicide), and
>should only use solar and wind generated electricity (far more
>expensive and far less effective/reliable). It seems to
>idealize peasantry, ignoring the terrible living conditions
>and health problems caused by the deprivation of electricity.

strav already addressed the scientific response, so i'll just focus on this part. And I'll be really brief--you'd rather African countries continue to be treated as economic playthings for their resources by big energy companies? Hows' that been going so far for African economies (besides which, economic hits would mostly be in the Middle East, not Africa)?

smh...

IF the industrialized countries were to finally begin to get serious about energy conservation, then perhaps african countries might be able to grow self-sustaining and diversified economies that could lift them out of the poverty and corruption currently fueled by reliance on western energy greed and resource consumption.

and, btw, wind energy is quite reliable and can be effective. its just ugly and that's what's holding it back in many areas (particularly disgustingly in Nantucket).

–––––––––––––
Vas por la calle llorando
Lagrimas de oro
Vas por la calle brotando
Lagrimas de oro

  

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mcdeezjawns
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10. "Strav took care of everyone....But here's a simple visual:"
In response to Reply # 0
Fri Mar-09-07 01:22 PM by mcdeezjawns

  

          

http://www.architecture2030.org/images/current_situation/CS02-CO2-Temperature.gif

try to digest it

I wish someone would make a graph showing the correlation between the OKP activist crowd and the thickness of skulls...

  

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The Damaja
Member since Aug 02nd 2003
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30. "um, that graph says C02 levels have nearly doubled in the industrial age..."
In response to Reply # 10


  

          

you'll need to explain it a bit more

--------------------
Why do you choose to mimic these wack MCs?
Why do you choose to listen to R&B?

"There are obviously many things which we do not understand, and may never be able to." Leela

*puts emceeing in a box*

  

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40thStreetBlack
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38. "it's fairly self-explanatory"
In response to Reply # 30


  

          

<--------- Harvey BETTER

  

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mcdeezjawns
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39. "I thought so....then again...*looks around and realizes where he is*"
In response to Reply # 38


  

          

  

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mcdeezjawns
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40. "you do understand the industrial revolution right?"
In response to Reply # 30
Sat Mar-10-07 05:47 PM by mcdeezjawns

  

          

like, what it means, what fueled it(literally) and the biproduct of that fuel?

  

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The Damaja
Member since Aug 02nd 2003
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43. "you do realize industrial emissions account for 0.43% of global C02?"
In response to Reply # 40


  

          

industrial including cars and everything else caused by man except breathing

--------------------
Why do you choose to mimic these wack MCs?
Why do you choose to listen to R&B?

"There are obviously many things which we do not understand, and may never be able to." Leela

*puts emceeing in a box*

  

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stravinskian
Member since Feb 24th 2003
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Mon Mar-12-07 08:15 AM

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64. "Careful..."
In response to Reply # 43


  

          


http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2005/06/how-much-of-the-recent-cosub2sub-increase-is-due-to-human-activities/

  

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guru0509
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174. "LMAO"
In response to Reply # 10


  

          


>I wish someone would make a graph showing the correlation
>between the OKP activist crowd and the thickness of skulls...



_______________________________

  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
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Thu Dec-03-09 06:07 PM

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179. "It's funny because 'The Great Swindle....' uses that graph."
In response to Reply # 10
Thu Dec-03-09 06:13 PM by denny

          

I assume you, like Al Gore, are using that graph to show that higher CO2 levels cause higher temperatures.

But the movie 'Swindle' points out that if you look at that graph....it seems just as/more likely that changes in temperature drive CO2 levels. Quite simply, if you look at the graph, the temperature spikes occur BEFORE the CO2 spikes....possibly suggesting that Al Gore has been saying the carraige is pushing the horse.

Now I'm a layman...so I'd like to hear a response to the claim made in 'Swindle' that temperature is actually driving CO2 levels rather than CO2 levels driving temperature. Again, look at the graph....It's clear that temperature changes first and CO2 levels follow.

It's been a while since I've seen 'Swindle', but I think their claim was that temperature is rising as a result of sun activity....and the rise in temperature is the reason for increasing CO2 levels.

  

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The Damaja
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Fri Dec-04-09 03:11 PM

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181. "can't believe i forgot to point that out first time round"
In response to Reply # 179


  

          

i think the comeback to it is that there is still a feedback effect between co2 and temp, but the article i read explaining that left a lot to be, well, explained

--------------------
Why do you choose to mimic these wack MCs?
Why do you choose to listen to R&B?

"There are obviously many things which we do not understand, and may never be able to." Leela

*puts emceeing in a box*

  

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foxnesn
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11. "strav check the website"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

for information. this documentary is blowing global warming out of the water. new actual scientific experiements coupled with real data show that humans are not causing global warming. it is infact a number if issues, mostly the sun's increased activity. dont argue with me, argue with the climatologists. click on the arguements. you may be a scientist yourself but that doesnt mean you have any understanding of climate science. nor does reading science journals make you an expert. nor does it put you in a position to comment on how scientists in this field go about their research as you do not know any of the major players in this field. but please bless us all with your unending knowledge of all things science.

http://www.channel4.com/science/microsites/G/great_global_warming_swindle/index.html

  

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stravinskian
Member since Feb 24th 2003
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13. "fox, read a book"
In response to Reply # 11


  

          

A NONfiction book, preferably by a reputable scientist.

>for information. this documentary is blowing global warming
>out of the water.

You can say that, and you can believe that, and Marcus can believe "Loose Change" blows up the 911 conspiracy, and inVerse can believe answersingenesis.org blows up the evolution conspiracy, but the science is the science and this documentary is not a scientific document and it is not having any effect on the scientific consensus. From Damaja's summary it sounds like it's just repeating the standard misconceptions and misleads.

>new actual scientific experiements coupled
>with real data show that humans are not causing global
>warming.

How do you know this? You say I don't know all there is to know about the state of the science, granted, but you know far less.

>it is infact a number if issues, mostly the sun's
>increased activity.

What do you mean by "activity"? You don't have to answer, I'm familiar with the claim, and its details, and I have met the two scientists who are most famous for making this claim, Willie Soon and Sallie Baliunas. Their work on the subject goes back over six years, and has not been very convincing. It's generally viewed as, at best, an unlikely alternate hypothesis in need of a failure of the standard hypothesis. The standard hypothesis, anthropogenic global warming, fits the data better and with fewer assumptions.

Also, one of the main motivations for their hypothesis, an apparent discrepancy between measurements near the surface and in the upper atmosphere, has now been resolved. If I remember, the satellite measurements they were working with were being misinterpreted. I believe the details were spelled out in the recent NAS report.

>dont argue with me, argue with the
>climatologists.

I don't have to. Again, the climatologists agree with me! (Soon and Baliunas aren't climatologists, they're astrophysicists. Every single climatologist I know accepts the consensus position.)

>click on the arguements.

Again, I don't have to click on the arguments. I can argue with real climatologists by just walking to the next building! At least, I could, if they didn't agree with me. (In actuality, of course, the causation is different. I agree with them.)

>you may be a
>scientist yourself but that doesnt mean you have any
>understanding of climate science. nor does reading science
>journals make you an expert. nor does it put you in a position
>to comment on how scientists in this field go about their
>research as you do not know any of the major players in this
>field.

You underestimate your old friend! I know many of the major players in this field. That's one of the main advantages of working where I do.

>but please bless us all with your unending knowledge of
>all things science.

I already did... (C) Homer Simpson

>http://www.channel4.com/science/microsites/G/great_global_warming_swindle/index.html

http://www.realclimate.org

^ That's a blog run by real climate scientists at the forefront of their field. Spend some time there, they'll debunk anything you need debunked. And there still seems to be a lot that you need debunked.

  

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foxnesn
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62. "RE: fox, read a book"
In response to Reply # 13


  

          

>A NONfiction book, preferably by a reputable scientist.

reputable being one you agree with i guess. not the worlds leading climatologist... but hey you are smarter than him im sure.

>
>>for information. this documentary is blowing global warming
>>out of the water.
>
>You can say that, and you can believe that, and Marcus can
>believe "Loose Change" blows up the 911 conspiracy, and
>inVerse can believe answersingenesis.org blows up the
>evolution conspiracy, but the science is the science and this
>documentary is not a scientific document and it is not having
>any effect on the scientific consensus. From Damaja's summary
>it sounds like it's just repeating the standard misconceptions
>and misleads.

its not. you should watch it. its theory on cosmic rays has been gaining incredible support by all sides.


>>new actual scientific experiements coupled
>>with real data show that humans are not causing global
>>warming.
>
>How do you know this? You say I don't know all there is to
>know about the state of the science, granted, but you know far
>less.
>
>>it is infact a number if issues, mostly the sun's
>>increased activity.
>
>What do you mean by "activity"? You don't have to answer, I'm
>familiar with the claim, and its details, and I have met the
>two scientists who are most famous for making this claim,
>Willie Soon and Sallie Baliunas. Their work on the subject
>goes back over six years, and has not been very convincing.
>It's generally viewed as, at best, an unlikely alternate
>hypothesis in need of a failure of the standard hypothesis.
>The standard hypothesis, anthropogenic global warming, fits
>the data better and with fewer assumptions.
>
>Also, one of the main motivations for their hypothesis, an
>apparent discrepancy between measurements near the surface and
>in the upper atmosphere, has now been resolved. If I
>remember, the satellite measurements they were working with
>were being misinterpreted. I believe the details were spelled
>out in the recent NAS report.

you are wrong. watch the documentary. your knowledge is OLD.


>>dont argue with me, argue with the
>>climatologists.
>
>I don't have to. Again, the climatologists agree with me!
>(Soon and Baliunas aren't climatologists, they're
>astrophysicists. Every single climatologist I know accepts
>the consensus position.)

no they dont. watch the documentary.


>>click on the arguements.
>
>Again, I don't have to click on the arguments. I can argue
>with real climatologists by just walking to the next building!
> At least, I could, if they didn't agree with me. (In
>actuality, of course, the causation is different. I agree
>with them.)
>
>>you may be a
>>scientist yourself but that doesnt mean you have any
>>understanding of climate science. nor does reading science
>>journals make you an expert. nor does it put you in a
>position
>>to comment on how scientists in this field go about their
>>research as you do not know any of the major players in this
>>field.
>
>You underestimate your old friend! I know many of the major
>players in this field. That's one of the main advantages of
>working where I do.

yea? name names. tell me who the major players are that you can just walk up to and talk about with. if you arent talking out your ass ill be able to tell.


>>but please bless us all with your unending knowledge of
>>all things science.
>
>I already did... (C) Homer Simpson
>
>>http://www.channel4.com/science/microsites/G/great_global_warming_swindle/index.html
>
>http://www.realclimate.org
>
>^ That's a blog run by real climate scientists at the
>forefront of their field. Spend some time there, they'll
>debunk anything you need debunked. And there still seems to
>be a lot that you need debunked.

watch the documentary. you are giving OLD information. information that has been debunked.

  

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stravinskian
Member since Feb 24th 2003
8850 posts
Mon Mar-12-07 08:05 AM

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63. "RE: fox, read a book"
In response to Reply # 62


  

          

>>A NONfiction book, preferably by a reputable scientist.
>
>reputable being one you agree with i guess.

Actually, yes, I do happen to agree with most of the reputable scientists on this issue. Thanks for reminding us.

>not the worlds
>leading climatologist... but hey you are smarter than him im
>sure.

Haha! Okay, go ahead fox, tell us who you think is "the world's leading climatologist." The only person I can imagine who might deserve the title is Hansen, and he can't be the one you're talking about.


>>it sounds like it's just repeating the standard
>misconceptions
>>and misleads.
>
>its not. you should watch it. its theory on cosmic rays has
>been gaining incredible support by all sides.

Incredible, that's the problem (teehee).

Please, fox, you don't even know what a cosmic ray is. I do, and I know about their hypothesized connection with climate measurements. It's an old story, and it officially died with the CCSP report.


>you are wrong. watch the documentary. your knowledge is OLD.

How, do you KNOW, fox? You watched a damn TV show, and you have the audacity to be telling a trained, professional scientist that his scientific knowledge is old. You're a fucking loony.


>no they dont.

How do you know, fox? You watched a damn TV show.

>watch the documentary.

You mean the TV show? Should I read some Michael Crichton, too?


>yea? name names. tell me who the major players are that you
>can just walk up to and talk about with. if you arent talking
>out your ass ill be able to tell.

Yeah, I bet you can tell a lot of things. Problem is, you're a fucking loony.

I don't make a point of listing the names of my friends and colleagues on internet message boards populated, in large fraction, by assholes and imbeciles. You'll note that I've only mentioned my institution on a total of two occasions. I've never said the name of my research advisor. I've never linked to any of my coauthored papers. I'm not gonna be listing off the names of my friends, and inviting people I've never even met to clog their inboxes with discredited, politically-motivated pseudoscience.


>watch the documentary. you are giving OLD information.
>information that has been debunked.

How do you know, fox? You watched a fucking TV show.

Please, fox, I've seen you mock the weirdos and imbeciles around here, even recently. You know no more about climate science than these "wtc7 was 'pulled'" people know about structural physics and engineering. I'm clearly aware of the scientific claims made in this TV show, and of their scientific status. My knowledge is old, as you say, only because the damn claims are old. And I noticed that you haven't had anything to say to this,

http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2007/03/swindled/ ,

linked in an earlier post, wherein a 9-to-5 climate scientist, and indeed a leading figure in the field, tears your TV show to shreds.

Really, why do you keep coming back to this thread? Is it just vanity? Do you think that if you're lucky enough to get the last word in, you might save a little face with the few libertarians that might read this board? Is it blind ego? Do you actually think you know more about the situation than I? Do you actually think my knowledge is too old to be credible, because I haven't seen your sensationalist TV show?

Fox, here's a fact of which you don't seem to be aware: you can believe whatever you want to believe, no matter how stupid and outright false it might be. There's no way that I could stop you even if I cared. But I'm not gonna help you clear your conscience over it, nor am I gonna let you spread your misinformation unchallenged.

  

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thejerseytornado
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66. "archive this!"
In response to Reply # 63


  

          


>Actually, yes, I do happen to agree with most of the reputable
>scientists on this issue. Thanks for reminding us.

LOL...and the hits keep coming...

>Fox, here's a fact of which you don't seem to be aware: you
>can believe whatever you want to believe, no matter how stupid
>and outright false it might be. There's no way that I could
>stop you even if I cared. But I'm not gonna help you clear
>your conscience over it, nor am I gonna let you spread your
>misinformation unchallenged.

can we please get a strav vs. fox pay-per-click discussion board?!? shit is brilliant everytime.

–––––––––––––
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Lagrimas de oro
Vas por la calle brotando
Lagrimas de oro

  

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foxnesn
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85. "so what you are saying is..."
In response to Reply # 63
Tue Mar-13-07 05:17 AM by foxnesn

  

          

because the majority of scientists believe AGW to be real then it must be so? (even tho a small percentage of them are actually working in the field) and because you read realclimate.org, you are an authority on the subject. and because you happen to work in a field of science completely unrelated to climatology you are an authority. are you even being paid to do your research or are you still paying your university back? and of course you dont mention any of the people you could just walk over and talk to about this subject. because a simple web search could easily find any published articles written. i know i cant defend my position on AGW as well as you can. im no pretending to be an expert on the subject. but im going to speak out on people who claim they have completely figured out global warming. like the case is settled. how is that science? i guess we should just accept what we know now and not challenge it. because for the record, the tv documentary was based on a peer reviewed article written in one of your science journals. so you keep 'co-authoring' those essays even if your name is on the bottom of the list im sure a few more okayokayer posts will lift your spirits.

  

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stravinskian
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130. "You're grasping at straws,"
In response to Reply # 85
Wed Mar-21-07 03:04 AM by stravinskian

  

          

and not finding any. But hey, we're having fun.

>because the majority of scientists believe AGW to be real
>then it must be so?

1.) Not just the majority, an overwhelming majority, who are consistently better able to justify their arguments. A better word for this is "a consensus," and you consistently forget the difference.

2.) Just because there's a consensus doesn't make it so, just like the consensus that the sun will come up tomorrow doesn't make it so. It merely represents the best knowledge that we have at the moment. If we act on our knowledge, and then find out we were wrong, that'll be a mistake, but an honest mistake. If we ignore our knowledge, and live to regret it, then we will have been willfully ignorant. Both scenarios represent mistakes, but only the first is excusable.

>(even tho a small percentage of them are
>actually working in the field)

Careful... you're talking out of your ass again.

>and because you read
>realclimate.org,

Well, and Science, and Nature, and The Physical Review, and the Astrophysical Journal, and the Proceedings of the National Academy of Science, and the Arxiv, and whatever else I happen to come across. But aside from that, granted, I'm not paying all that much attention.

>you are an authority on the subject.

I don't think I ever claimed to be an authority. I may have claimed that I know a fuck of a lot more than you do on this, and I stand by that.

>and
>because you happen to work in a field of science completely
>unrelated to climatology you are an authority.

1.) Again, I never claimed to be an authority.

2.) I'm an astrophysicist, just like, well, most of the people who've supported this solar variation hypothesis you like so well.

>are you even
>being paid to do your research or are you still paying your
>university back?

Haha! Ouch! Well, since you asked, I've never paid a dollar of tuition in my life. Public school as a kid, undergrad entirely on scholarships, and as is standard in the sciences, the (sizable) tuition at my grad school has been fully covered, plus a modest salary, by teaching and grant money.

>and of course you dont mention any of the
>people you could just walk over and talk to about this
>subject. because a simple web search could easily find any
>published articles written.

Alright, I've explained why I haven't "named any names," so you come back and explain to me why you wouldn't believe me even if I had. You can doubt my credentials all you want, I really don't give a fuck. But nobody can doubt that I've consistently schooled you on the facts in this and every other discussion we've ever had on global warming.

>i know i cant defend my position
>on AGW as well as you can. im no pretending to be an expert on
>the subject.

Really? Oh, because I was starting to think you might know what the fuck you're talking about. Thanks for bringing me to my senses.

>but im going to speak out on people who claim
>they have completely figured out global warming. like the case
>is settled. how is that science? i guess we should just accept
>what we know now and not challenge it.

How is it science for us to pretend a settled case is not settled. Should we dig up the tiny, irrelevant faction of trained biologists studying "intelligent design" and pretend the "case isn't settled" on evolution? Should we take Marcus3x's favorite "BYU Physics Professor's" word for it and claim the "case isn't settled" on the collapses at the world trade center? Knowledge can always be questioned, but that doesn't make it any less "known."

>because for the record,
>the tv documentary was based on a peer reviewed article
>written in one of your science journals.

I'd like a citation, but it probably wasn't even provided in the TV show. That's not to say that I doubt some peer-reviewed support can be found for it. Like I've said, the claims they seem to be spreading have been around in the literature for quite some time. They just haven't found much widespread traction. And again, their basic motivation has fizzled away since we cleared up certain systematic errors in the analysis of the satellite data. Really, I can't overstate just how shocking it is that they took this solar variation/cosmic ray tack. It's thoroughly and utterly discredited. Three years ago, it would have been the best route for denialism, but there must be better scenarios nowadays.

>so you keep
>'co-authoring' those essays

Papers. I haven't written an "essay" since high school. See, this is just more evidence of just how fundamentally unaware you are of what the fuck you're talking about.

>even if your name is on the bottom
>of the list

Haha! Ouch again! I almost feel like I should feel hurt, just out of pity for your feeble, mindless attempts to insult me. I mean, at least you're trying, which is more than I can say for your attempts to learn a little something about climate.

>im sure a few more okayokayer posts will lift your
>spirits.

Well, this one has been fun.


Really, why don't you let this thread die. You're not making any progress. You lashed out a little in that last post, tried to get personal. Though it didn't bother me in the least, I regret that I may have let it escalate to such an ugly point. I'm sorry I called you a "loony." I meant it only as a rhetorical device, an expression of my befuddlement over your remarkable dedication to claims that you can't come close to justifying. Nobody's opinions really deserve to be mocked. But of course, this thread isn't just about opinions, it's also about facts, and you simply do not have your facts straight.

  

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smutsboy
Member since Jun 29th 2002
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131. "love it."
In response to Reply # 130


  

          

n/m

  

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stravinskian
Member since Feb 24th 2003
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Fri Mar-09-07 04:36 PM

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15. "Oh schitt!"
In response to Reply # 11


  

          

So, out of a mix of boredom and morbid curiosity, I took a look at the "arguments" on that page you pointed me to. After being given the fifth-grade explanation of the greenhouse effect, I read in awe as they *repeated* the claim of temperature discrepancies between surface and satellite measurements. Like I said in post 13, this has already been debunked. I double-checked, and it wasn't the NAS, it was the "US Climate Change Science Program," commissioned by the Bush White House of all people! I even made a post about it, to which you were pretty quiet:

http://board.okayplayer.com/okp.php?az=show_topic&forum=9&topic_id=81962&mesg_id=81962&listing_type=search

  

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mcdeezjawns
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17. "RE: Oh schitt!"
In response to Reply # 15


  

          

>So, out of a mix of boredom and morbid curiosity, I took a
>look at the "arguments" on that page you pointed me to. After
>being given the fifth-grade explanation of the greenhouse
>effect, I read in awe as they *repeated* the claim of
>temperature discrepancies between surface and satellite
>measurements. Like I said in post 13, this has already been
>debunked. I double-checked, and it wasn't the NAS, it was the
>"US Climate Change Science Program," commissioned by the Bush
>White House of all people! I even made a post about it, to
>which you were pretty quiet:
>
>http://board.okayplayer.com/okp.php?az=show_topic&forum=9&topic_id=81962&mesg_id=81962&listing_type=search
>

  

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explizit
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83. "wheres fox? girl bounced. hilarious."
In response to Reply # 15


  

          

http://myspace.com/bambumusic

www.individualsole.com

http://www.individualsole.com/?p=5256

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGH3OuP9Sek

  

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stravinskian
Member since Feb 24th 2003
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Fri Mar-09-07 04:54 PM

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16. "Oh shit!"
In response to Reply # 11


  

          

And they even end with an INTERNET POLL! (one that they don't even seem to be winning, by the way)

http://www.channel4.com/science/microsites/G/great_global_warming_swindle/vote.html

Really, fox, are these the "arguments" you said I needed to see? Honestly, I must have misunderstood you. Even you couldn't be so naive.

  

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imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
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Fri Mar-09-07 04:02 PM

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12. "at the end of the day both sides will be right and we'll still be fucked"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." © Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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Yank
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18. "EXACTLY!"
In response to Reply # 12


  

          

When you finance both sides of the coin, it's a win win situtation

  

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stravinskian
Member since Feb 24th 2003
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Fri Mar-09-07 05:35 PM

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19. "RealClimate rebuttal:"
In response to Reply # 0
Fri Mar-09-07 05:36 PM by stravinskian

  

          

Not long after suggesting foxy spend some time looking around realclimate.org, I stopped by there myself and saw a blog entry disputing the movie:

http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2007/03/swindled/

They also mention the CCSP report that I referred to in post 15, and the fact that it renders moot the solar variation hypothesis on which the movie seems to depend.

  

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mcdeezjawns
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20. "but..but...but..."
In response to Reply # 19


  

          

haha!
Talk about it!

  

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Jon
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23. "even though i've never taken Global Warming people's word for it"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

and remain in the position of "i don't know"

i also don't ...care.

to me, the very idea that it POSSIBLY COULD happen should be enough for us to get our shit together and start taking the environment and everything that's natural seriously

even if it's not real (which wouldn't surprise me at ALL, since my only line to "all scientists" is books, mags, tv, and i've always been skeptical of popular "general-consensus-according-to-consensus-controllers" science) -- even if it's not real, there's a million OTHER things that ARE real/WILL be real (most of which we prolly don't know about) if we keep on shitting on God's creation

  

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Nettrice
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32. "You don't care?"
In response to Reply # 23


  

          

>and remain in the position of "i don't know"
>
>i also don't ...care.

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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Jon
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35. "You don't read?"
In response to Reply # 32


  

          

finish reading the rest of my reply

  

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Nettrice
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42. "You don't write well?"
In response to Reply # 35


  

          

.

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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Jon
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50. "no, you definitely just prefer to pass judgement before reading"
In response to Reply # 42


  

          

  

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smutsboy
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46. "lmfao."
In response to Reply # 23


  

          

>"general-consensus-according-to-consensus-controllers"
>science)

Can you expand on this?

Explain to me who the 'consensus controllers' are and how exactly they operate. Then I'll be happy to answer your question to me above.

  

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Jon
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51. "^ cop-out"
In response to Reply # 46


  

          

  

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smutsboy
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57. "it's those damn consensus-controllers!"
In response to Reply # 51


  

          

that's where these global warming activists get their information!

i see the light!

  

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Jon
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60. "ummm did i say that? no"
In response to Reply # 57


  

          

i said i don't KNOW if its real (and am very open to the idea that is could be). you need to read man

because the entire point of my post was: even if it ISN'T, its aggrivating that people wan to put up a fight with those who are basically trying to get us to be more careful with our environment. i don't care if global warming is real, because even if it isn't, we should be wanting to improve our act.

  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
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180. "I get your position but...."
In response to Reply # 60


          

there are real costs in our attempts to lower our 'carbon footprint'.....lost jobs, destroyed economies, inefficient work, lost opportunities for growth, etc.

Don't kid yourself, the legitimacy of global warming is extremely important...if it turns out the humans are not responsible for climate change, our course of action should be very different.

  

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nonaime
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29. "Here's all the proof you need: http://tinyurl.com/ysjp87"
In response to Reply # 0
Sat Mar-10-07 08:02 AM by nonaime

          

btw...that was a joke. We live in a closed ecosystem. There's no way in God's green Earth we aren't affecting it.

  

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40thStreetBlack
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37. "LOL @ focusing on African nations here"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

>- one of the most pernicious aspects of global warming
>activism is the idea that it's better to 'err on the side of
>caution.' This basically means saying to African nations that
>they shouldn't use their coal or oil (economic suicide), and
>should only use solar and wind generated electricity (far more
>expensive and far less effective/reliable). It seems to
>idealize peasantry, ignoring the terrible living conditions
>and health problems caused by the deprivation of electricity.

China & India are the big concern here, not Africa. nice pity ploy though.


>So yeah... pretty much ethered the global warming, greenhouse
>effect thing.

uh... no.

<--------- Harvey BETTER

  

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The Damaja
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Sun Mar-11-07 08:44 AM

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44. "the documentary itself focussed on africa"
In response to Reply # 37


  

          

because many african nations have untapped resources and have made far less progress as developing nations than china and india have

--------------------
Why do you choose to mimic these wack MCs?
Why do you choose to listen to R&B?

"There are obviously many things which we do not understand, and may never be able to." Leela

*puts emceeing in a box*

  

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samiam61182
Member since Dec 19th 2005
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Sun Mar-11-07 09:29 AM

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45. "ahhhhhhh!!!"
In response to Reply # 44


          



what is so infuriating is the fact the people of little credibility get given so much attention to state their case, in one doco i saw the same "scientist" that toured around the states saying global warming didnt exsist, is the same guy the smoking companies in the 90's used in their campaign to say smoking isnt addictive and doesnt cause cancer, he also wouldnt reply when asked whether he was on their pay roll for his services. 1000's of scientist for 30 years have been talking of global warming, there are more harmful gases in the atomosphere since the industrial revolution, the artic has melted at an alarming rate, its happening. it is not some government funded properganda tirade, its not terrorism, sars or some other trumped up threat. how can anyone be skeptical when arguing with 1000's of scientists trained in this field and say nah im just skeptical when it comes to mass media.

  

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thejerseytornado
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48. "reply 8"
In response to Reply # 44


  

          

probably missed it because strav had ethered y'all so much already...

(oh, and don't mention kyoto, it excludes developing nations from restrictions)

–––––––––––––
Vas por la calle llorando
Lagrimas de oro
Vas por la calle brotando
Lagrimas de oro

  

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The Damaja
Member since Aug 02nd 2003
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49. "*shrug* the point was"
In response to Reply # 48


  

          

some folk were trying to sell solar panels to africans in the name of environmentalism, but really it was too expensive for them and didn't generate much electricity, they'd be much better off with conventional means of generation, use the experimental options to the rich western nations

--------------------
Why do you choose to mimic these wack MCs?
Why do you choose to listen to R&B?

"There are obviously many things which we do not understand, and may never be able to." Leela

*puts emceeing in a box*

  

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thejerseytornado
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52. "RE: *shrug* the point was"
In response to Reply # 49


  

          

>some folk were trying to sell solar panels to africans in the
>name of environmentalism, but really it was too expensive for
>them and didn't generate much electricity, they'd be much
>better off with conventional means of generation, use the
>experimental options to the rich western nations

that?!? that was the point?!?!

holy shit, this only gets more laughable. i didn't think it was possible.

who is "some folk"? LOL.

the point is pathetically bad, just like the rest of the documentary, it seems.

–––––––––––––
Vas por la calle llorando
Lagrimas de oro
Vas por la calle brotando
Lagrimas de oro

  

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The Damaja
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53. "well the whole section of the doc. was about the activities of"
In response to Reply # 52


  

          

people caught up in the 'green' movement
and how they don't consider the downside of not using conventional means to generate electricity

parts of africa have no electricity and need it badly
should they really be telling them to eschew coal&oil in favour of installing solar panels?

it was more about the holier-than-thou attitude of the activists

--------------------
Why do you choose to mimic these wack MCs?
Why do you choose to listen to R&B?

"There are obviously many things which we do not understand, and may never be able to." Leela

*puts emceeing in a box*

  

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thejerseytornado
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54. "that's a terrible argument"
In response to Reply # 53


  

          

so "some" activists are giving some bad advice (how many?). Thus global warming is a scam? it's damning by association, the ugly stepchild of guilt by association.

–––––––––––––
Vas por la calle llorando
Lagrimas de oro
Vas por la calle brotando
Lagrimas de oro

  

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The Damaja
Member since Aug 02nd 2003
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Sun Mar-11-07 06:59 PM

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55. "the broader point was that 'better to err on the side of caution'"
In response to Reply # 54


  

          

(a statement that underpins basically all the activism) is only applied in one direction
no one mentions the dangers of not using fossil fuels etc

--------------------
Why do you choose to mimic these wack MCs?
Why do you choose to listen to R&B?

"There are obviously many things which we do not understand, and may never be able to." Leela

*puts emceeing in a box*

  

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thejerseytornado
Member since Dec 24th 2005
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Sun Mar-11-07 08:05 PM

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56. "RE: the broader point was that 'better to err on the side of caution'"
In response to Reply # 55


  

          

>(a statement that underpins basically all the activism) is
>only applied in one direction
>no one mentions the dangers of not using fossil fuels etc

see, you didn't address the problem of guilt by association. how many activists are saying this? how many aren't? Clearly, the bulk of them are not because the Kyoto protocols that they're all supportive of EXCLUDE developing nations from any fossil fuel caps. So, um...yeah...that's the broader point.

this is like the right-wing bash of anti-war activists. Because ANSWER can be accused of being "stalinist" (I'm not taking a side--I don't know enough about them and I don't really care right now), thus all anti-war activism is crap. That's not true. in this case, because a bunch of (unnamed, I might add) activists may have made a point that is flawed, global warming activism is a swindle. BULLSHIT.

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The Damaja
Member since Aug 02nd 2003
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Sun Mar-11-07 09:20 PM

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58. "RE: the broader point was that 'better to err on the side of caution'"
In response to Reply # 56


  

          

>>(a statement that underpins basically all the activism) is
>>only applied in one direction
>>no one mentions the dangers of not using fossil fuels etc
>
>see, you didn't address the problem of guilt by association.
>how many activists are saying this? how many aren't?

it seems a universal sentiment that it's better to play safe even if global warming doesn't happen or isn't man made or isn't catastrophic
this 'dangers' thing doesn't only apply to africa, it applies to any economies that would be harmed by limiting industrialization or industrial activity

Clearly,
>the bulk of them are not because the Kyoto protocols that
>they're all supportive of EXCLUDE developing nations from any
>fossil fuel caps. So, um...yeah...that's the broader point.
>

well in that specific case they were filming Greenpeace (quite a big movement, not just some random activists) campaigning somewhere in africa for people to adopt solar power as their main means of electricity

>this is like the right-wing bash of anti-war activists.
>Because ANSWER can be accused of being "stalinist" (I'm not
>taking a side--I don't know enough about them and I don't
>really care right now), thus all anti-war activism is crap.
>That's not true. in this case, because a bunch of (unnamed, I
>might add) activists may have made a point that is flawed,
>global warming activism is a swindle. BULLSHIT.
>

they weren't unnamed

--------------------
Why do you choose to mimic these wack MCs?
Why do you choose to listen to R&B?

"There are obviously many things which we do not understand, and may never be able to." Leela

*puts emceeing in a box*

  

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thejerseytornado
Member since Dec 24th 2005
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Sun Mar-11-07 09:48 PM

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59. "RE: the broader point was that 'better to err on the side of caution'"
In response to Reply # 58


  

          

>it seems a universal sentiment that it's better to play safe
>even if global warming doesn't happen or isn't man made or
>isn't catastrophic
>this 'dangers' thing doesn't only apply to africa, it applies
>to any economies that would be harmed by limiting
>industrialization or industrial activity

again, you miss the forest for the trees: the major movement by global warming activists is support of Kyoto which (as I've repeatedly mentioned with nary a response) MAKES DEVELOPING COUNTRIES EXEMPT FROM ANY CAPS. greenpeace's nutjob factor on this one may be high, but, then again, they're the people who send boats to protect whales with human shields...

>they weren't unnamed

they were in this thread until now.
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40thStreetBlack
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Mon Mar-12-07 02:44 PM

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79. "as jerseytornado said, that's exactly what kyoto proscribed"
In response to Reply # 49
Mon Mar-12-07 02:44 PM by 40thStreetBlack

  

          

>some folk were trying to sell solar panels to africans in the
>name of environmentalism, but really it was too expensive for
>them and didn't generate much electricity, they'd be much
>better off with conventional means of generation, use the
>experimental options to the rich western nations

and is probably the biggest reason why the US didn't sign the protocols.

<--------- Harvey BETTER

  

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40thStreetBlack
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Mon Mar-12-07 02:39 PM

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78. "no, it focused on Africa as a pity ploy"
In response to Reply # 44
Mon Mar-12-07 02:45 PM by 40thStreetBlack

  

          

>because many african nations have untapped resources and have
>made far less progress as developing nations than china and
>india have

but most of the projected growth in energy consumption is in China and India, not Africa. so there is obviously another agenda at play in focusing on Africa.

<--------- Harvey BETTER

  

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The Damaja
Member since Aug 02nd 2003
18637 posts
Tue Mar-13-07 08:47 AM

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87. "lol you think they couldn't have evoked 'pity' by going to India??"
In response to Reply # 78


  

          

kids living on traffic islands?

India and China are major industrial nations, they don't have patience for ogranizations like greenpeace

smaller nations in africa are 'reachable' though, that's why they were filming the campaigning there
you keep mentioning the kyoto protocol as if it has no effect on developing nations
but it's well known that developing nations are supposed to be able to gain 'Carbon Credits' by installing solar/wind projects instead of using conventional power plants
they can then sell these Credits to industrial countries that want them, for cash
but that still leaves 3rd world countries with crappy electrical infrastructure

so in fact it was perfectly legitimate to bring up green projects in Africa

--------------------
Why do you choose to mimic these wack MCs?
Why do you choose to listen to R&B?

"There are obviously many things which we do not understand, and may never be able to." Leela

*puts emceeing in a box*

  

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40thStreetBlack
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Wed Mar-14-07 04:32 PM

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96. "LOL is that what I said?"
In response to Reply # 87


  

          

>India and China are major industrial nations, they don't have
>patience for ogranizations like greenpeace

and African nations do?

>smaller nations in africa are 'reachable' though,

is that so?


>that's why
>they were filming the campaigning there
>you keep mentioning the kyoto protocol as if it has no effect
>on developing nations
>but it's well known that developing nations are supposed to be
>able to gain 'Carbon Credits' by installing solar/wind
>projects instead of using conventional power plants
>they can then sell these Credits to industrial countries that
>want them, for cash
>but that still leaves 3rd world countries with crappy
>electrical infrastructure
>
>so in fact it was perfectly legitimate to bring up green
>projects in Africa

A) not what you said:

"This basically means saying to African nations that
they shouldn't use their coal or oil (economic suicide), and
should only use solar and wind generated electricity (far more
expensive and far less effective/reliable)."

^^^ nobody is saying that


B) the projected energy consumption of both China and India dwarf all sub-saharan Africa together, so focusing on Africa seems odd to say the least.

<--------- Harvey BETTER

  

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The Damaja
Member since Aug 02nd 2003
18637 posts
Wed Mar-14-07 05:50 PM

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99. "you seem to be missing the point"
In response to Reply # 96


  

          

>>India and China are major industrial nations, they don't
>have
>>patience for ogranizations like greenpeace
>
>and African nations do?
>

some

>>smaller nations in africa are 'reachable' though,
>
>is that so?
>

yep

>
>>that's why
>>they were filming the campaigning there
>>you keep mentioning the kyoto protocol as if it has no
>effect
>>on developing nations
>>but it's well known that developing nations are supposed to
>be
>>able to gain 'Carbon Credits' by installing solar/wind
>>projects instead of using conventional power plants
>>they can then sell these Credits to industrial countries
>that
>>want them, for cash
>>but that still leaves 3rd world countries with crappy
>>electrical infrastructure
>>
>>so in fact it was perfectly legitimate to bring up green
>>projects in Africa
>
>A) not what you said:
>
>"This basically means saying to African nations that
>they shouldn't use their coal or oil (economic suicide), and
>should only use solar and wind generated electricity (far
>more
>expensive and far less effective/reliable)."
>
>^^^ nobody is saying that
>

that;s what the Kyoto protocol encourages them to do

>
>B) the projected energy consumption of both China and India
>dwarf all sub-saharan Africa together, so focusing on Africa
>seems odd to say the least.

this isn't about the energy consumption part of it
this is about the drawbacks of wack technology or non-industrialization to poorer nations

China and India aren't going to be messing around when it comes to basic things like electricity for their citizens, if (IF) they have to scale back it will be in industrial operations

--------------------
Why do you choose to mimic these wack MCs?
Why do you choose to listen to R&B?

"There are obviously many things which we do not understand, and may never be able to." Leela

*puts emceeing in a box*

  

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thejerseytornado
Member since Dec 24th 2005
21304 posts
Thu Mar-15-07 10:41 AM

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101. "you've been avoiding this points for many, many posts"
In response to Reply # 99


  

          

>that;s what the Kyoto protocol encourages them to do

THEN WHY ARE THEY EXEMPT FROM THE CAPS IN KYOTO? They are encouraged to sell excess clean power to developing countries. its a standard and highly successful economic driven method for reducing pollution.

just...answer...that...please...

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The Damaja
Member since Aug 02nd 2003
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Thu Mar-15-07 11:14 AM

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102. "it's got nothing to do with the caps!"
In response to Reply # 101


  

          

the kyoto treaty is a two pronged thing
1. reduce the global greenhouse gas level by capping USA, Russia etc
2. encourage developing countries not to become the same carbon emitting behemoths as current developed countries are

the developing countries aren't just forgotten about

the idea is that they earn Carbon Credits everytime they implement a green project
they can then sell these credits to built-up countries desparate for more
so they can get cash-rich... but having reliable and effective power infrastructure is more important than having money

--------------------
Why do you choose to mimic these wack MCs?
Why do you choose to listen to R&B?

"There are obviously many things which we do not understand, and may never be able to." Leela

*puts emceeing in a box*

  

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thejerseytornado
Member since Dec 24th 2005
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Thu Mar-15-07 12:35 PM

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103. "you're mind is just not working right now, is it?"
In response to Reply # 102


  

          

>the kyoto treaty is a two pronged thing
>1. reduce the global greenhouse gas level by capping USA,
>Russia etc
>2. encourage developing countries not to become the same
>carbon emitting behemoths as current developed countries are

yeah. those are bad goals. a damn shame that they try to prevent things from going badly.

>the developing countries aren't just forgotten about

i know, i've been ramming that point home for a long as time. they aren't forgotten, but they're given an economic incentive to build clean energy infrastructure on top of their own needs.

>the idea is that they earn Carbon Credits everytime they
>implement a green project

money, i described that to you like five posts ago...keep up.

>so they can get cash-rich... but having reliable and effective
>power infrastructure is more important than having money

there's no need for one without another. you're assuming its a zero-sum game, when its not. For example, as someone pointed out, Costa Rica (I believe) is making money selling EXCESS clean energy. And, when costa rica's energy demands need those power sources, well, they've already got them.

and before you start saying something about costa rica having people without electricity a couple points:
-so do the industrialized countries like the US.
-those are a separate issue of building electrical lines, etc. not of not having the power creation abilities.

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The Damaja
Member since Aug 02nd 2003
18637 posts
Thu Mar-15-07 05:15 PM

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104. "RE: you're mind is just not working right now, is it?"
In response to Reply # 103


  

          

>>the kyoto treaty is a two pronged thing
>>1. reduce the global greenhouse gas level by capping USA,
>>Russia etc
>>2. encourage developing countries not to become the same
>>carbon emitting behemoths as current developed countries are
>
>yeah. those are bad goals. a damn shame that they try to
>prevent things from going badly.
>

OBVIOUSLY they are bad goals if global warming (and/or the human contribution) is a bogus concept

>>the developing countries aren't just forgotten about
>
>i know, i've been ramming that point home for a long as time.
>they aren't forgotten, but they're given an economic incentive
>to build clean energy infrastructure on top of their own
>needs.
>

the whole point is, 'clean energy infrastructures' aren't very good! it's like someone buys your house from you, and says 'you can spend the money on anything except a new house'

>>the idea is that they earn Carbon Credits everytime they
>>implement a green project
>
>money, i described that to you like five posts ago...keep up.
>

^^ attempted cover-up
nope, you didn't, lol
the only thing you mentioned was the caps/restrictions

>>so they can get cash-rich... but having reliable and
>effective
>>power infrastructure is more important than having money
>
>there's no need for one without another. you're assuming its a
>zero-sum game, when its not. For example, as someone pointed
>out, Costa Rica (I believe) is making money selling EXCESS
>clean energy. And, when costa rica's energy demands need those
>power sources, well, they've already got them.
>
>and before you start saying something about costa rica having
>people without electricity a couple points:
>-so do the industrialized countries like the US.
>-those are a separate issue of building electrical lines, etc.
>not of not having the power creation abilities.
>

well hurray for Costa Rica
not every country is in the same situation. putting solar panels on buildings doesn't even involve outside power lines... it just involves a wack electricity supply

--------------------
Why do you choose to mimic these wack MCs?
Why do you choose to listen to R&B?

"There are obviously many things which we do not understand, and may never be able to." Leela

*puts emceeing in a box*

  

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thejerseytornado
Member since Dec 24th 2005
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Fri Mar-16-07 05:11 PM

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108. "still not on, is it?"
In response to Reply # 104


  

          

>OBVIOUSLY they are bad goals if global warming (and/or the
>human contribution) is a bogus concept

but that's exactly what CANNOT EVEN THEORETICALLY BE PROVEN. you can't prove a negative. so...oops.

>the whole point is, 'clean energy infrastructures' aren't very
>good! it's like someone buys your house from you, and says
>'you can spend the money on anything except a new house'

that's a bad point, because they aren't bad. they can be bad, tehy can be good. they can be average. each is different (kinda like countries...)

>^^ attempted cover-up
>nope, you didn't, lol
>the only thing you mentioned was the caps/restrictions

carbon credits, caps, selling energy, etc. these are all related concepts. whatever, you're copping please because you've lost the real argument.

>well hurray for Costa Rica
>not every country is in the same situation. putting solar
>panels on buildings doesn't even involve outside power
>lines... it just involves a wack electricity supply

wtf are you talking about now? you've moved this discussion left, right...every which way but forward.

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The Damaja
Member since Aug 02nd 2003
18637 posts
Fri Mar-16-07 07:24 PM

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111. "RE: still not on, is it?"
In response to Reply # 108


  

          

>>OBVIOUSLY they are bad goals if global warming (and/or the
>>human contribution) is a bogus concept
>
>but that's exactly what CANNOT EVEN THEORETICALLY BE PROVEN.
>you can't prove a negative. so...oops.
>

lol that's completely idiotic
we can't prove that aliens aren't planning an Earth invasion next year
so, um, let's put aside our current problems and start preparing for Independence Day!

all they need to do is debunk the global warming theories and then it's business as usual

>>the whole point is, 'clean energy infrastructures' aren't
>very
>>good! it's like someone buys your house from you, and says
>>'you can spend the money on anything except a new house'
>
>that's a bad point, because they aren't bad. they can be bad,
>tehy can be good. they can be average. each is different
>(kinda like countries...)
>

no... they are wack, this is well known. no one would want to use them if they had plentiful coal/gas/oil supplies for conventional power stations as an alternative

>>^^ attempted cover-up
>>nope, you didn't, lol
>>the only thing you mentioned was the caps/restrictions
>
>carbon credits, caps, selling energy, etc. these are all
>related concepts. whatever, you're copping please because
>you've lost the real argument.
>

LOL nope!
you only mentioned CAPS
carbon credits is a whole other concept that you did not think to mention before you said 'kyoto excludes developing countries'

>>well hurray for Costa Rica
>>not every country is in the same situation. putting solar
>>panels on buildings doesn't even involve outside power
>>lines... it just involves a wack electricity supply
>
>wtf are you talking about now? you've moved this discussion
>left, right...every which way but forward.
>

I'M TALKING ABOUT INSTALLING SOLAR POWER, LIKE I'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT IN PRACTICALLY EVERY PREVIOUS POST
lol @ your stupefying plea coppage

--------------------
Why do you choose to mimic these wack MCs?
Why do you choose to listen to R&B?

"There are obviously many things which we do not understand, and may never be able to." Leela

*puts emceeing in a box*

  

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thejerseytornado
Member since Dec 24th 2005
21304 posts
Sat Mar-17-07 10:40 AM

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113. "calling me stupid?"
In response to Reply # 111


  

          

>lol that's completely idiotic

actually, its called the counterfactual basis of causation. one cannot prove a negative. one can prove a positive. its kinda the basis of most all science...

>all they need to do is debunk the global warming theories and
>then it's business as usual

oh, shit...they can't do that though. such theories aren't being debunked. oh...fuck...there goes that argument for you...

>no... they are wack, this is well known. no one would want to
>use them if they had plentiful coal/gas/oil supplies for
>conventional power stations as an alternative

no, that isn't well-known. but you're understanding of energy issues is clearly so beyond screwed up (witness: believing this documentary was worth crap), that such blanket statements are absurd. For example, your proof for this issue was one doctor and one solar generator. so far, no wackness actually proven. feel free to show that CDM efforts are actively bad on a large scale. good luck with that...

no one would want to use green energy sources if they already had conventional supplies and power stations because of a basic problem in economics called the problem of the commons (I might be slightly off on the term). Why would anyone be inefficient when using a resource that only causes harm to things they don't own? we aren't economically driven to do so.

>LOL nope!
>you only mentioned CAPS

yes, because your vague ass not even complete sentences that lack punctuation were unclear. now that you moved from one false accusation to another different but equally silly one, carbon credits are the related issue. you're accusing kyoto of screwing africa because it hurts africa's chances of developing. carbon credits and caps are the two manners in which, you claim, africa might be getting screwed. caps was easily dealt with, and now you're coming up with this as though the two aren't related.

>carbon credits is a whole other concept that you did not think
>to mention before you said 'kyoto excludes developing
>countries'

like the fact that i didn't address a really fucking dumb argument (yeah, i'm getting annoyed by this) somehow proves i'm wrong. please.

>I'M TALKING ABOUT INSTALLING SOLAR POWER, LIKE I'VE BEEN
>TALKING ABOUT IN PRACTICALLY EVERY PREVIOUS POST
>lol @ your stupefying plea coppage

so we're only talking about solar power? no wind energy discussion? no hydro-electric discussion? oh, well...and here i thought there were multiple alternative energy options. and i thought this was about carbon credits. LOL.

Finally, I'll try to make this point as clearly as possible: carbon credits only exist because caps exist. Without caps, no carbon credit market would have any point.

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The Damaja
Member since Aug 02nd 2003
18637 posts
Sat Mar-17-07 01:34 PM

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114. "RE: calling me stupid?"
In response to Reply # 113


  

          

>>lol that's completely idiotic
>
>actually, its called the counterfactual basis of causation.
>one cannot prove a negative. one can prove a positive. its
>kinda the basis of most all science...
>

yeah but you just applied it completely wrong

>>all they need to do is debunk the global warming theories
>and
>>then it's business as usual
>
>oh, shit...they can't do that though. such theories aren't
>being debunked. oh...fuck...there goes that argument for
>you...
>

why are you bringing this up now
the point was that
'we should cut back just in case global warming is true'
ignores the negative effects of cutting back as if they were negligable

>>no... they are wack, this is well known. no one would want
>to
>>use them if they had plentiful coal/gas/oil supplies for
>>conventional power stations as an alternative
>
>no, that isn't well-known. but you're understanding of energy
>issues is clearly so beyond screwed up (witness: believing
>this documentary was worth crap), that such blanket statements
>are absurd. For example, your proof for this issue was one
>doctor and one solar generator. so far, no wackness actually
>proven. feel free to show that CDM efforts are actively bad on
>a large scale. good luck with that...
>
>no one would want to use green energy sources if they already
>had conventional supplies and power stations because of a
>basic problem in economics called the problem of the commons
>(I might be slightly off on the term). Why would anyone be
>inefficient when using a resource that only causes harm to
>things they don't own? we aren't economically driven to do
>so.
>

look, i'm just explaining what the documentary said to you, because you are making lots of wrong assumptions

>>LOL nope!
>>you only mentioned CAPS
>
>yes, because your vague ass not even complete sentences that
>lack punctuation were unclear. now that you moved from one
>false accusation to another different but equally silly one,
>carbon credits are the related issue. you're accusing kyoto of
>screwing africa because it hurts africa's chances of
>developing. carbon credits and caps are the two manners in
>which, you claim, africa might be getting screwed. caps was
>easily dealt with, and now you're coming up with this as
>though the two aren't related.

no PAY ATTENTION
i never said anythign about caps and africa
after you brought up the kyoto treaty i pointed out that the carbon credits aspect affects africa

again, i'm just explaining the documentary
if you had considered what they were sayng, applied the principle of charity, you would have worked out the carbon emissions thing for yourself. i had to remind you about carbon emission

>>carbon credits is a whole other concept that you did not
>think
>>to mention before you said 'kyoto excludes developing
>>countries'
>
> like the fact that i didn't address a really fucking dumb
>argument (yeah, i'm getting annoyed by this) somehow proves
>i'm wrong. please.
>
>>I'M TALKING ABOUT INSTALLING SOLAR POWER, LIKE I'VE BEEN
>>TALKING ABOUT IN PRACTICALLY EVERY PREVIOUS POST
>>lol @ your stupefying plea coppage
>
>so we're only talking about solar power? no wind energy
>discussion? no hydro-electric discussion? oh, well...and here
>i thought there were multiple alternative energy options. and
>i thought this was about carbon credits. LOL.

lol there you go again
you tried to make out that me talking about solar power installations was 'changing the subject' when IN FACT i've mentioned them in practically EVERY POST
stop asking stupid questions and then bending back on them

>
>Finally, I'll try to make this point as clearly as possible:
>carbon credits only exist because caps exist. Without caps, no
>carbon credit market would have any point.
>

LOL
what does that have to do with ANYTHING????
if anything that supports the point i'm making

--------------------
Why do you choose to mimic these wack MCs?
Why do you choose to listen to R&B?

"There are obviously many things which we do not understand, and may never be able to." Leela

*puts emceeing in a box*

  

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thejerseytornado
Member since Dec 24th 2005
21304 posts
Sat Mar-17-07 03:38 PM

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115. "RE: calling me stupid?"
In response to Reply # 114


  

          

but you just applied it completely wrong

trust me, i know when and how the problem of the counterfactual comes into play.

>why are you bringing this up now
>the point was that
>'we should cut back just in case global warming is true'
>ignores the negative effects of cutting back as if they were
>negligable

i didn't bring it up. and nobody is treating anything as "negligible" you're just asserting that they do.


>look, i'm just explaining what the documentary said to you,
>because you are making lots of wrong assumptions

see...that's your response to the meat of my argument.

>no PAY ATTENTION
>i never said anythign about caps and africa
>after you brought up the kyoto treaty i pointed out that the
>carbon credits aspect affects africa

ok, fair enough. but your first writing of it was nowhere near clear enough.

>again, i'm just explaining the documentary
>if you had considered what they were sayng, applied the
>principle of charity, you would have worked out the carbon
>emissions thing for yourself. i had to remind you about carbon
>emission

LOL. clarity?

>lol there you go again
>you tried to make out that me talking about solar power
>installations was 'changing the subject' when IN FACT i've
>mentioned them in practically EVERY POST
>stop asking stupid questions and then bending back on them

mentioned, yes, but made central, no. and solar power is only one alternative, one that is often the worst option. so its biased to only mention it.


–––––––––––––
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Lagrimas de oro
Vas por la calle brotando
Lagrimas de oro

  

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The Damaja
Member since Aug 02nd 2003
18637 posts
Sat Mar-17-07 06:51 PM

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116. "RE: calling me stupid?"
In response to Reply # 115


  

          

> but you just applied it completely wrong
>
>trust me, i know when and how the problem of the
>counterfactual comes into play.
>

sorry dawg, what you were saying was ridiculous

>>why are you bringing this up now
>>the point was that
>>'we should cut back just in case global warming is true'
>>ignores the negative effects of cutting back as if they were
>>negligable
>
>i didn't bring it up. and nobody is treating anything as
>"negligible" you're just asserting that they do.
>

the 'do it just in case' idea assumes there's no harm in doing it if it's false
which is what i was explaining in this part of the argument when we were talking in hypothetical positions and then you decided to bring it back to square one with 'ooh those are such bad reasons' etc. you in fact employed circular logic


>
>>look, i'm just explaining what the documentary said to you,
>>because you are making lots of wrong assumptions
>
>see...that's your response to the meat of my argument.
>

whatever, you can work this out for yourself

>>no PAY ATTENTION
>>i never said anythign about caps and africa
>>after you brought up the kyoto treaty i pointed out that the
>>carbon credits aspect affects africa
>
>ok, fair enough. but your first writing of it was nowhere near
>clear enough.

i suspect your reading skills are more at issue

>
>>again, i'm just explaining the documentary
>>if you had considered what they were sayng, applied the
>>principle of charity, you would have worked out the carbon
>>emissions thing for yourself. i had to remind you about
>carbon
>>emission
>
>LOL. clarity?
>

clarity? what? no it's 'charity', look it up

--------------------
Why do you choose to mimic these wack MCs?
Why do you choose to listen to R&B?

"There are obviously many things which we do not understand, and may never be able to." Leela

*puts emceeing in a box*

  

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40thStreetBlack
Charter member
21383 posts
Fri Mar-16-07 06:01 PM

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110. "nobody in Africa thinks they are gonna get cash-rich off carbon credits"
In response to Reply # 102


  

          

>the idea is that they earn Carbon Credits everytime they
>implement a green project
>they can then sell these credits to built-up countries
>desparate for more
>so they can get cash-rich... but having reliable and effective
>power infrastructure is more important than having money

so this whole argument is a red herring.

<--------- Harvey BETTER

  

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40thStreetBlack
Charter member
21383 posts
Fri Mar-16-07 05:50 PM

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109. "RE: you seem to be missing the point"
In response to Reply # 99


  

          

>>>India and China are major industrial nations, they don't
>>have
>>>patience for ogranizations like greenpeace
>>
>>and African nations do?
>>
>
>some

such as?

>>>smaller nations in africa are 'reachable' though,
>>
>>is that so?
>>
>
>yep

such as?


>>"This basically means saying to African nations that
>>they shouldn't use their coal or oil (economic suicide), and
>>should only use solar and wind generated electricity (far
>>more
>>expensive and far less effective/reliable)."
>>
>>^^^ nobody is saying that
>>
>
>that;s what the Kyoto protocol encourages them to do

Kyoto says they should *only* use solar and wind generated electricity?


>>B) the projected energy consumption of both China and India
>>dwarf all sub-saharan Africa together, so focusing on Africa
>>seems odd to say the least.
>
>this isn't about the energy consumption part of it
>this is about the drawbacks of wack technology or
>non-industrialization to poorer nations


"wack technology"? LOL

and nobody in Africa really cares about Kyoto. like, really. so this is all a bunch of bullshit anyway.


>China and India aren't going to be messing around when it
>comes to basic things like electricity for their citizens,

Neither are Nigeria or Ghana. Neither is Eritrea or Sierra Leone, for that matter.

> if
>(IF) they have to scale back it will be in industrial
>operations

yeah, China's gonna scale back industrial operations to please the West - LOL.

<--------- Harvey BETTER

  

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The Damaja
Member since Aug 02nd 2003
18637 posts
Fri Mar-16-07 07:41 PM

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112. "RE: you seem to be missing the point"
In response to Reply # 109


  

          

>>>>India and China are major industrial nations, they don't
>>>have
>>>>patience for ogranizations like greenpeace
>>>
>>>and African nations do?
>>>
>>
>>some
>
>such as?
>
>>>>smaller nations in africa are 'reachable' though,
>>>
>>>is that so?
>>>
>>
>>yep
>
>such as?
>

all the smaller nations for a start
the majority of them have a population less than ten million

>
>>>"This basically means saying to African nations that
>>>they shouldn't use their coal or oil (economic suicide),
>and
>>>should only use solar and wind generated electricity (far
>>>more
>>>expensive and far less effective/reliable)."
>>>
>>>^^^ nobody is saying that
>>>
>>
>>that;s what the Kyoto protocol encourages them to do
>
>Kyoto says they should *only* use solar and wind generated
>electricity?
>

no, but it encourages it, that's how it's set up

>
>>>B) the projected energy consumption of both China and India
>>>dwarf all sub-saharan Africa together, so focusing on
>Africa
>>>seems odd to say the least.
>>
>>this isn't about the energy consumption part of it
>>this is about the drawbacks of wack technology or
>>non-industrialization to poorer nations
>
>
>"wack technology"? LOL
>
>and nobody in Africa really cares about Kyoto. like, really.
>so this is all a bunch of bullshit anyway.
>

global warming is universally accepted to be a long-term process
if in 100 years Africa is as developed as Europe, industry-wise, then how the FUCK is there a chance of keeping greenhouse gases at a managable level
how can you possibly say Africa is of not interest to this whole issue
like it's just going to go away in 5 years, soon as we get bush out the whitehouse!? lol
not to mention, Africa's the place that will get fucked the most by global warming effects
(assuming the theorizing is correct)


>
>>China and India aren't going to be messing around when it
>>comes to basic things like electricity for their citizens,
>
>Neither are Nigeria or Ghana. Neither is Eritrea or Sierra
>Leone, for that matter.
>

*shrug* they had footage of wack technology being implemented. yep. this dude (a doctor) could only get power for his fridge OR his lightbulb... not both at the same time

>> if
>>(IF) they have to scale back it will be in industrial
>>operations
>
>yeah, China's gonna scale back industrial operations to please
>the West - LOL.
>
>

uh... Kyoto is in Japan, it's a global treaty
you're just saying shit for the sake of it now

--------------------
Why do you choose to mimic these wack MCs?
Why do you choose to listen to R&B?

"There are obviously many things which we do not understand, and may never be able to." Leela

*puts emceeing in a box*

  

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40thStreetBlack
Charter member
21383 posts
Mon Mar-19-07 03:44 PM

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119. "RE: you seem to be missing the point"
In response to Reply # 112


  

          

>all the smaller nations for a start
>the majority of them have a population less than ten million

just being smaller doesn't make them reachable and certainly doesn't mean they have patience for organizations like greenpeace.


>>Kyoto says they should *only* use solar and wind generated
>>electricity?
>>
>
>no, but it encourages it, that's how it's set up

no it isn't. it is set up to reduce & cap emission levels, not to eliminate them altogether (which is virtually impossible)



>global warming is universally accepted to be a long-term
>process

I thought it wasn't universally accepted at all? LOL


>if in 100 years Africa is as developed as Europe,
>industry-wise,

it won't be


>then how the FUCK is there a chance of keeping
>greenhouse gases at a managable level

by utilizing renewable energy sources?


>how can you possibly say Africa is of not interest to this
>whole issue

I didn't say it is of "no interest to this whole issue" - I said focusing on Africa instead of China and India is ridiculous.


>like it's just going to go away in 5 years, soon as we get
>bush out the whitehouse!? lol

WTF? so now you're just making up shit that has NOTHING to do with what I said?


>not to mention, Africa's the place that will get fucked the
>most by global warming effects
>(assuming the theorizing is correct)

and that's an argument *against* reducing greenhouse emissions.. how?


>*shrug* they had footage of wack technology being implemented.
>yep. this dude (a doctor) could only get power for his fridge
>OR his lightbulb... not both at the same time

uh, that kinda thing is pretty common throughout Africa even with traditional fossil fueled power generation.



>uh... Kyoto is in Japan, it's a global treaty

uh, you know what the fuck I meant


>you're just saying shit for the sake of it now

LOL - you been doing that from jump.


<--------- Harvey BETTER

  

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The Damaja
Member since Aug 02nd 2003
18637 posts
Mon Mar-19-07 10:41 PM

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122. "RE: you seem to be missing the point"
In response to Reply # 119


  

          

>>all the smaller nations for a start
>>the majority of them have a population less than ten million
>
>just being smaller doesn't make them reachable and certainly
>doesn't mean they have patience for organizations like
>greenpeace.
>

it's common sense/knowledge that it's easier to reach smaller nations because they don't have as much bureaucracy or private interests

>
>>>Kyoto says they should *only* use solar and wind generated
>>>electricity?
>>>
>>
>>no, but it encourages it, that's how it's set up
>
>no it isn't. it is set up to reduce & cap emission levels, not
>to eliminate them altogether (which is virtually impossible)
>

for the developed nations

>
>
>>global warming is universally accepted to be a long-term
>>process
>
>I thought it wasn't universally accepted at all? LOL
>

the one thing everyone agrees on is that climate change takes centuries to happen and for the effects to be felt

>
>>if in 100 years Africa is as developed as Europe,
>>industry-wise,
>
>it won't be
>

how do you know. europe was a lot different 100 years ago, and africa is a much bigger place

>
>>then how the FUCK is there a chance of keeping
>>greenhouse gases at a managable level
>
>by utilizing renewable energy sources?
>

oh... right... LIKE THE ONES WE WERE JUST TALKING ABOUT?

>
>>how can you possibly say Africa is of not interest to this
>>whole issue
>
>I didn't say it is of "no interest to this whole issue" - I
>said focusing on Africa instead of China and India is
>ridiculous.
>

you're saying stuff like 'no one in africa gives a fuck about kyoto'
focussing on africa is perfectly legitimate since they are in a different situation from china and india
china and india were irrelevant to that part of the program

>
>>like it's just going to go away in 5 years, soon as we get
>>bush out the whitehouse!? lol
>
>WTF? so now you're just making up shit that has NOTHING to do
>with what I said?
>

what you're saying is all over the place

>
>>not to mention, Africa's the place that will get fucked the
>>most by global warming effects
>>(assuming the theorizing is correct)
>
>and that's an argument *against* reducing greenhouse
>emissions.. how?
>

lol this was in reply to you saying africa didn't care
i don't know why i even bother talking to people on here

>
>>*shrug* they had footage of wack technology being
>implemented.
>>yep. this dude (a doctor) could only get power for his
>fridge
>>OR his lightbulb... not both at the same time
>
>uh, that kinda thing is pretty common throughout Africa even
>with traditional fossil fueled power generation.
>

ok

>
>
>>uh... Kyoto is in Japan, it's a global treaty
>
>uh, you know what the fuck I meant
>
>

... not really ... you were talking as if it was a western media-driven agenda... sounds familiar

>>you're just saying shit for the sake of it now
>
>LOL - you been doing that from jump.
>

you deliberately or carelessly reply to things out of context

--------------------
Why do you choose to mimic these wack MCs?
Why do you choose to listen to R&B?

"There are obviously many things which we do not understand, and may never be able to." Leela

*puts emceeing in a box*

  

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thejerseytornado
Member since Dec 24th 2005
21304 posts
Tue Mar-20-07 12:18 PM

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123. "what?"
In response to Reply # 122


  

          

I was going to be done, but this had too many points of shock for me

>it's common sense/knowledge that it's easier to reach smaller
>nations because they don't have as much bureaucracy or private
>interests

what? who's common sense/knowledge says that? I say smaller nations with less bureaucracy are more capricious and thus less amenable to efforts of NGOs. THat's what Weber would argue, at least, and he came up with the term bureaucracy as we know it.

>for the developed nations

you sure do know a lot about the kyoto protocol's plans. you've read them i presume, or is this coming from the documentary?

>the one thing everyone agrees on is that climate change takes
>centuries to happen and for the effects to be felt

for all the effects, yes. but the bulk of scientists are arguing that the crisis that is roughly around the corner is because of the effects of less than a century. so, basically...no.

>... not really ... you were talking as if it was a western
>media-driven agenda... sounds familiar

the kyoto protocols were western driven...wow...

–––––––––––––
Vas por la calle llorando
Lagrimas de oro
Vas por la calle brotando
Lagrimas de oro

  

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40thStreetBlack
Charter member
21383 posts
Tue Mar-20-07 12:23 PM

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124. "RE: you seem to be missing the point"
In response to Reply # 122


  

          

>it's common sense/knowledge that it's easier to reach smaller
>nations because they don't have as much bureaucracy or private
>interests

you didn't say they were 'easier' to reach, you said they *are* reachable. and you don't know that.


>>no it isn't. it is set up to reduce & cap emission levels,
>not
>>to eliminate them altogether (which is virtually impossible)
>>
>
>for the developed nations

wrong. you don't know what the fuck you're talking about.


>the one thing everyone agrees on is that climate change takes
>centuries to happen and for the effects to be felt

wrong again. you're really very poorly informed on this issue.


>>>if in 100 years Africa is as developed as Europe,
>>>industry-wise,
>>
>>it won't be
>>
>
>how do you know. europe was a lot different 100 years ago, and
>africa is a much bigger place

most of western europe was industrialized 100 years ago. let's not be ridiculous here.


>>>then how the FUCK is there a chance of keeping
>>>greenhouse gases at a managable level
>>
>>by utilizing renewable energy sources?
>>
>
>oh... right... LIKE THE ONES WE WERE JUST TALKING ABOUT?

um... yes. you are really starting to sound ridiculous.


>you're saying stuff like 'no one in africa gives a fuck about
>kyoto'

well they don't.


>focussing on africa is perfectly legitimate since they are in
>a different situation from china and india
>china and india were irrelevant to that part of the program

no they're not. China and India are still developing nations and most of their populations still live in undeveloped and impoverished conditions.


>what you're saying is all over the place

"if in 100 years Africa is as developed as Europe, industry-wise, then how the FUCK is there a chance of keeping greenhouse gases at a managable level
how can you possibly say Africa is of not interest to this whole issue
like it's just going to go away in 5 years, soon as we get bush out the whitehouse!? lol"

- LOL


>lol this was in reply to you saying africa didn't care
>i don't know why i even bother talking to people on here

they don't. but that still doesn't explain why you were using global warming effects as an argument when the whole premise of your argument is that it's a crock of shit.


>... not really ... you were talking as if it was a western
>media-driven agenda... sounds familiar

uh, no. and here's what you said again:

"China and India aren't going to be messing around when it comes to basic things like electricity for their citizens, if (IF) they have to scale back it will be in industrial operations"

because of course, China is more concerned that their citizens have electricity in their homes than they are with industrial operations - LMAO.


>you deliberately or carelessly reply to things out of context


"if in 100 years Africa is as developed as Europe, industry-wise, then how the FUCK is there a chance of keeping greenhouse gases at a managable level
how can you possibly say Africa is of not interest to this whole issue
like it's just going to go away in 5 years, soon as we get bush out the whitehouse!? lol"

- LOL

<--------- Harvey BETTER

  

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The Damaja
Member since Aug 02nd 2003
18637 posts
Tue Mar-20-07 09:41 PM

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129. "RE: you seem to be missing the point"
In response to Reply # 124


  

          

>>it's common sense/knowledge that it's easier to reach
>smaller
>>nations because they don't have as much bureaucracy or
>private
>>interests
>
>you didn't say they were 'easier' to reach, you said they
>*are* reachable.

LOL
semantics
think about it


and you don't know that.
>
>
>>>no it isn't. it is set up to reduce & cap emission levels,
>>not
>>>to eliminate them altogether (which is virtually
>impossible)
>>>
>>
>>for the developed nations
>
>wrong. you don't know what the fuck you're talking about.
>
>

oh so it's set up to cap emissions for non-developed nations? LOL

>>the one thing everyone agrees on is that climate change
>takes
>>centuries to happen and for the effects to be felt
>
>wrong again. you're really very poorly informed on this
>issue.
>
>

um it;s a long term process that some say has been accelerated by man
studies into the most concerning issue, sea rise, usually talk about the year 2100 onwards
the main point though is that IT'S NOT A SHORT TERM PROBLEM, if it's valid now it will be even more so in 100 years or 200 years

>>>>if in 100 years Africa is as developed as Europe,
>>>>industry-wise,
>>>
>>>it won't be
>>>
>>
>>how do you know. europe was a lot different 100 years ago,
>and
>>africa is a much bigger place
>
>most of western europe was industrialized 100 years ago. let's
>not be ridiculous here.
>

lol so it's western europe now? (which mind you, was still very different, eg. no cars, little electricity)
what about Russia, which wasn't industrialized at all 100 years ago, but became a massive economy/carbon emittor


>
>>>>then how the FUCK is there a chance of keeping
>>>>greenhouse gases at a managable level
>>>
>>>by utilizing renewable energy sources?
>>>
>>
>>oh... right... LIKE THE ONES WE WERE JUST TALKING ABOUT?
>
>um... yes. you are really starting to sound ridiculous.
>

but you were saying africa didn't have to fuck with renewable energy... keep up

>
>>you're saying stuff like 'no one in africa gives a fuck
>about
>>kyoto'
>
>well they don't.
>
>
>>focussing on africa is perfectly legitimate since they are
>in
>>a different situation from china and india
>>china and india were irrelevant to that part of the program
>
>no they're not. China and India are still developing nations
>and most of their populations still live in undeveloped and
>impoverished conditions.
>

i was under the impression they were also subject to caps since they (esp china) are headed to become the biggest emittors, i guess not though

>
>>what you're saying is all over the place
>
>"if in 100 years Africa is as developed as Europe,
>industry-wise, then how the FUCK is there a chance of keeping
>greenhouse gases at a managable level
>how can you possibly say Africa is of not interest to this
>whole issue
>like it's just going to go away in 5 years, soon as we get
>bush out the whitehouse!? lol"
>
>- LOL
>

... there's nothing incoherent about that paragraph
it's amazing that you could miss the point

>
>>lol this was in reply to you saying africa didn't care
>>i don't know why i even bother talking to people on here
>
>they don't. but that still doesn't explain why you were using
>global warming effects as an argument when the whole premise
>of your argument is that it's a crock of shit.
>

just read over the discussion a few more times you'll understand it eventually

>
>>... not really ... you were talking as if it was a western
>>media-driven agenda... sounds familiar
>
>uh, no. and here's what you said again:
>
>"China and India aren't going to be messing around when it
>comes to basic things like electricity for their citizens, if
>(IF) they have to scale back it will be in industrial
>operations"
>
>because of course, China is more concerned that their citizens
>have electricity in their homes than they are with industrial
>operations - LMAO.
>
>

true they are not great humanists but they're building fossil fuel power plants every week why are they going to start messing around with solar panels for individual homes. not going to happen

>>you deliberately or carelessly reply to things out of
>context
>
>
>"if in 100 years Africa is as developed as Europe,
>industry-wise, then how the FUCK is there a chance of keeping
>greenhouse gases at a managable level
>how can you possibly say Africa is of not interest to this
>whole issue
>like it's just going to go away in 5 years, soon as we get
>bush out the whitehouse!? lol"
>
>- LOL
>

ROFL

--------------------
Why do you choose to mimic these wack MCs?
Why do you choose to listen to R&B?

"There are obviously many things which we do not understand, and may never be able to." Leela

*puts emceeing in a box*

  

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40thStreetBlack
Charter member
21383 posts
Sat Mar-24-07 04:29 PM

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132. "RE: you seem to be missing the point"
In response to Reply # 129
Sat Mar-24-07 04:30 PM by 40thStreetBlack

  

          

>LOL
>semantics
>think about it

not really. I'd ask you to think about it, but you haven't been doing much thinking in this thread.


>oh so it's set up to cap emissions for non-developed nations?
>LOL

eventually, yes. and it certainly isn't set up so they only use solar and wind energy as you claim. like I said, you don't know what you're talking about.


>um it;s a long term process that some say has been accelerated
>by man
>studies into the most concerning issue, sea rise, usually talk
>about the year 2100 onwards

a number of scientists say there are effects which will be felt in the next few decades and some that are being felt right now.


>the main point though is that IT'S NOT A SHORT TERM PROBLEM,

WHO THE FUCK SAID IT WAS A SHORT TERM PROBLEM?


>if it's valid now it will be even more so in 100 years or 200
>years

who said it won't be valid in 100 or 200 years?


>lol so it's western europe now? (which mind you, was still
>very different, eg. no cars, little electricity)
>what about Russia, which wasn't industrialized at all 100
>years ago, but became a massive economy/carbon emittor

LOL - industrialization was already taking place in Russia 100 years ago. you really need to stop talking about shit you obviously know nothing about.


>but you were saying africa didn't have to fuck with renewable
>energy... keep up

no, YOU said they didn't have to fuck with renewable energy. *I* said they don't care about it. but in this particular case you were talking about 100 years from now, not the present... keep up.



>i was under the impression they were also subject to caps
>since they (esp china) are headed to become the biggest
>emittors, i guess not though

currently they're not. that's one of the the main reasons the US didn't want to sign Kyoto.


>>>what you're saying is all over the place
>>
>>"if in 100 years Africa is as developed as Europe,
>>industry-wise, then how the FUCK is there a chance of
>keeping
>>greenhouse gases at a managable level
>>how can you possibly say Africa is of not interest to this
>>whole issue
>>like it's just going to go away in 5 years, soon as we get
>>bush out the whitehouse!? lol"
>>
>>- LOL
>>
>
>... there's nothing incoherent about that paragraph
>it's amazing that you could miss the point

it has nothing to do with the debate at hand, and even if just taken by itself, the fuck does getting Bush out of the white house have to do with development & greenhouse gases in Africa? so yes, what you're saying is all over the place and incoherent as hell.



>just read over the discussion a few more times you'll
>understand it eventually

sorry, but shit is still shit no matter how many times you look at it.


>>>... not really ... you were talking as if it was a western
>>>media-driven agenda... sounds familiar
>>
>>uh, no. and here's what you said again:
>>
>>"China and India aren't going to be messing around when it
>>comes to basic things like electricity for their citizens,
>if
>>(IF) they have to scale back it will be in industrial
>>operations"
>>
>>because of course, China is more concerned that their
>citizens
>>have electricity in their homes than they are with
>industrial
>>operations - LMAO.
>>
>>
>
>true they are not great humanists but they're building fossil
>fuel power plants every week why are they going to start
>messing around with solar panels for individual homes. not
>going to happen

LOL - that wasn't even the issue here... but since you brought it up:

http://www.worldwatch.org/node/41

"Solar Energy Booming in China

The city of Beijing, China’s second-largest energy consumer, has announced plans to build a “solar street” where buildings, streetlights, and other features will run entirely on energy from the sun. A second pilot project in the city’s Xuanwu Park will introduce solar power for lighting, heating, and refrigeration. Both projects reflect a larger government commitment to dramatically increase China’s use of renewable energy in the coming decades."


L


>>>you deliberately or carelessly reply to things out of
>>context
>>
>>
>>"if in 100 years Africa is as developed as Europe,
>>industry-wise, then how the FUCK is there a chance of
>keeping
>>greenhouse gases at a managable level
>>how can you possibly say Africa is of not interest to this
>>whole issue
>>like it's just going to go away in 5 years, soon as we get
>>bush out the whitehouse!? lol"
>>
>>- LOL
>>
>
>ROFL

yeah, the ironic comedy of your post was pretty funny, wasn't it?

<--------- Harvey BETTER

  

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The Damaja
Member since Aug 02nd 2003
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Sat Mar-24-07 05:39 PM

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134. "dawg i don't even believe this documentary"
In response to Reply # 132


  

          

you people were just making such a bad job of criticizing its points i had to say something
so this solar powered Great Street of China sounds pretty interesting

--------------------
Why do you choose to mimic these wack MCs?
Why do you choose to listen to R&B?

"There are obviously many things which we do not understand, and may never be able to." Leela

*puts emceeing in a box*

  

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40thStreetBlack
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137. "so why u say "pretty much ethered global warming,greenhouse effect thing..."
In response to Reply # 134


  

          

sure sounded like you believed it.

>you people were just making such a bad job of criticizing its
>points i had to say something

who people? me? stravinskian? jerseytornado? I didn't see you refute much of any of our critiques.

>so this solar powered Great Street of China sounds pretty
>interesting

yeah, I wonder how soon they will have that up and running.

<--------- Harvey BETTER

  

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thejerseytornado
Member since Dec 24th 2005
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Mon Mar-26-07 06:33 PM

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139. "i can't believe he said that..."
In response to Reply # 137


  

          

>>you people were just making such a bad job of criticizing
>its
>>points i had to say something
>
>who people? me? stravinskian? jerseytornado? I didn't see you
>refute much of any of our critiques.

he said it ethered global warming in the original post and then claims he's only posting about the documentary he doesn't believe in because we didn't refute it well enough?

LOL.

–––––––––––––
Vas por la calle llorando
Lagrimas de oro
Vas por la calle brotando
Lagrimas de oro

  

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The Damaja
Member since Aug 02nd 2003
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142. "lol when someone uses the verb 'ether' in ref to a scientific debate"
In response to Reply # 139


  

          

that should give you a clue

why do you think i posted this? i wanted to see how their claims stood up to criticism
however some of you were attacking it for the wrong reasons so i had to argue with them

--------------------
Why do you choose to mimic these wack MCs?
Why do you choose to listen to R&B?

"There are obviously many things which we do not understand, and may never be able to." Leela

*puts emceeing in a box*

  

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thejerseytornado
Member since Dec 24th 2005
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143. "RE: lol when someone uses the verb 'ether' in ref to a scientific debate"
In response to Reply # 142


  

          

>that should give you a clue

not on this board it shouldn't..

>why do you think i posted this? i wanted to see how their
>claims stood up to criticism

really, then you should have presented it in an entirely different manner that didn't say words like "ether". that word clearly takes a side. its not "challenged" or "accused" or "claimed", which are words that don't take sides, it was "ether" which is more equivalent to "fucked up" or "shat upon", as in, destroyed the scientific case. which, clearly, isn't true.

>however some of you were attacking it for the wrong reasons so
>i had to argue with them

you/them. your verbiage continues to be slippy. and then you have posts 24 and 43. so, let's just say i still don't buy your plea coppage right here.

–––––––––––––
Vas por la calle llorando
Lagrimas de oro
Vas por la calle brotando
Lagrimas de oro

  

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The Damaja
Member since Aug 02nd 2003
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144. "RE: lol when someone uses the verb 'ether' in ref to a scientific debate"
In response to Reply # 143


  

          

>>that should give you a clue
>
>not on this board it shouldn't..
>
>>why do you think i posted this? i wanted to see how their
>>claims stood up to criticism
>
>really, then you should have presented it in an entirely
>different manner that didn't say words like "ether". that word
>clearly takes a side. its not "challenged" or "accused" or
>"claimed", which are words that don't take sides, it was
>"ether" which is more equivalent to "fucked up" or "shat
>upon", as in, destroyed the scientific case. which, clearly,
>isn't true.
>

um if i'd said 'what do you think about this documentary which you have not seen?' it would have got zero replies
whereas if you shock pos with words like 'ether' you get all sorts of people clamouring to show how smart they are
voila

>>however some of you were attacking it for the wrong reasons
>so
>>i had to argue with them
>
>you/them. your verbiage continues to be slippy.

i love when people challenge my grammar online, they invariable fuck it up, i swear it's like a curse
read that sentence again untill you realize my 'verbiage' wasn't slippy


and then you
>have posts 24 and 43. so, let's just say i still don't buy
>your plea coppage right here.
>

um, one of those posts was because someone posted a graph GIF with NO EXPLANATION
the other was because that physicicicist guy thought i was talking about publishing of results rather than publishing in a mainstream periodical (which is what the documentary was talking about, specifically the contributor who was an ex-editor of New Scientist)

>–––––––––––––
>Vas por la calle llorando
>Lagrimas de oro
>Vas por la calle brotando
>Lagrimas de oro

--------------------
Why do you choose to mimic these wack MCs?
Why do you choose to listen to R&B?

"There are obviously many things which we do not understand, and may never be able to." Leela

*puts emceeing in a box*

  

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thejerseytornado
Member since Dec 24th 2005
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145. "just...stop...please"
In response to Reply # 144


  

          

>um if i'd said 'what do you think about this documentary which
>you have not seen?' it would have got zero replies
>whereas if you shock pos with words like 'ether' you get all
>sorts of people clamouring to show how smart they are
>voila

bullshit. you can't use a shock term with one side and then claim you weren't taking that side but just wanted to shock people after the fact. no way, no how. if that's not slippy...well...

I responded to everything else, but realized it was off topic. Using terms like "ether" take sides. you can't walk away from that. you just can't. Its ok to disagree, but you're misrepresenting what you posted. Own your freaking original post or acknowledge that it definitely takes a side. "Ether" is not a neutral term.
–––––––––––––
Vas por la calle llorando
Lagrimas de oro
Vas por la calle brotando
Lagrimas de oro

  

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imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
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Sun Mar-11-07 11:57 AM

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47. "i don't know about africa but in central america"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

specifically in costa rica from personal experience I saw wind energy farms which were being to used to creat energy in a country which was already at surplus because of hydro electric power (which is a whole other destructive beast but for another topic). because of the surplus they were able to provide FREE energy to Nicaragua who had no energy resources nor the finances for obtaining energy on the 'free' market. all done without any emissions or other undesirable affect on our atmosphere. of course it didn't do a thing to help tica nica relations but that's a whole other topic too.

to be honest i don't like global warming because al gore is still married to tipper and i still don't trust her from the pmrc days.

that said, one thing no one has ever been able to explain is what all of those fossil fuels do inside the earth for the billions of years before we decided to burn them into the atmosphere.

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." © Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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40thStreetBlack
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80. "are you serious?"
In response to Reply # 47
Mon Mar-12-07 02:49 PM by 40thStreetBlack

  

          

>to be honest i don't like global warming because al gore is
>still married to tipper and i still don't trust her from the
>pmrc days.

wow, I hope that was a joke.

<--------- Harvey BETTER

  

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imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
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88. "probably should have read"
In response to Reply # 80


  

          

at the end of the day i don't like this current global warming initiative.... but yeah i'm serious. fuck tipper gore. and of all the things that i wrote, honestly that was the least important.

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." © Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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40thStreetBlack
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98. "yes, hating Tipper Gore is a perfectly valid reason to doubt global warm..."
In response to Reply # 88


  

          

how silly of me.

<--------- Harvey BETTER

  

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chief1284
Member since Nov 08th 2004
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Tue Mar-13-07 10:01 PM

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93. "RE: i don't know about africa but in central america"
In response to Reply # 47


  

          


>that said, one thing no one has ever been able to explain is
>what all of those fossil fuels do inside the earth for the
>billions of years before we decided to burn them into the
>atmosphere.

errr...nothing. I'm no scientist but from my knowledge they mostly came from decomposing organic matter ie. dead trees, sealife etc. And built up huge reserves of hydrocarbons that just sit there doing nothing. Why would they do anything?

------------------------------------------------------------

Check my man Lao at www.myspace.com/lazzriel

  

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imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
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127. "maybe regulate the internal temperature of the planet or something"
In response to Reply # 93


  

          

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." © Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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chief1284
Member since Nov 08th 2004
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135. "Hmmm"
In response to Reply # 127


  

          

I'm not really sure how to respond to this. I mean what do you mean? Why would oil regualte the temperature of the the Earth's interior? One of us is very confused about these matters, and I think its probably you.

------------------------------------------------------------

Check my man Lao at www.myspace.com/lazzriel

  

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isotope
Member since May 07th 2006
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Mon Mar-12-07 09:52 AM

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68. "Modern "Science" --Bought and PAYED FOR."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Should I be surprised that "scientists" will come out of the corporate sponsored woodwork to proclaim Global Warming a fraud ?


nnnnNOPE.

The worse Global Warming gets--the MORE frantically these "scientists" LIE.





http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=62415979

  

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stravinskian
Member since Feb 24th 2003
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Mon Mar-12-07 09:58 AM

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70. "^^^ Has no idea what's going on."
In response to Reply # 68


  

          

  

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isotope
Member since May 07th 2006
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Mon Mar-12-07 11:12 AM

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71. "^ should I CARE what u think?"
In response to Reply # 70


  

          

Let me guess--the Faculties of Science/Engineering/Biology/DNA research etc. are NOT seriously compromised by Corporate Sponsorship?


What waspy little planet are you living on?





http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=62415979

  

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stravinskian
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72. "The scientists are on your side!"
In response to Reply # 71
Mon Mar-12-07 11:52 AM by stravinskian

  

          

At least look around the thread a little.

  

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isotope
Member since May 07th 2006
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73. "You do KNOW there is a WORLD beyond OkPlayer,right?"
In response to Reply # 72
Mon Mar-12-07 12:09 PM by isotope

  

          

In Canada we have "scientists" who try to refute David Suzuki EVERYDAY in editorial sections of local papers and even University periodicals.

Monsantos recently shut down a documentary being made from the Faculty of Agriculture regarding a law suit launched by the aforementioned against a local farmer over proprietary issues related to seeding.
The faculty was in agreement with Monsantos shutting out the dissident students and local activists who made the documentary.

Most scientists seem to be in agreement with the Facts of Global Warming--but NOT ALL.

What do you think the inspiration for this weak thread was?--no doubt by a pro-Auto Industry "scientist".



SOME scientists are doing "the right thing".


But MOST are NOT--ESPECIALLY WHERE IT COUNTS---please don't kid yourself.
http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=62415979

  

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stravinskian
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74. "Well, I don't personally consider Canada to be a part of the world."
In response to Reply # 73
Mon Mar-12-07 12:27 PM by stravinskian

  

          

Apart from that, I'm not in the mood to argue.

  

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mcdeezjawns
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76. "^^Canadian^^^...Explains a Lot, but not quite everything"
In response to Reply # 73


  

          

  

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isotope
Member since May 07th 2006
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77. "^ BRILLIANT response."
In response to Reply # 76
Mon Mar-12-07 02:00 PM by isotope

  

          

Your legend grows like a wort on a strippers ass.


http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=62415979

  

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bangkokkid
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84. "I don't why most people can't see this angle.."
In response to Reply # 77


          

Me, corporate guy, trained in the fine art of studying the bottom line, realizes that the whole business of global warming is going to force me to completely change my business model. Specifically, because I work for a company who profits emmensely from the very causes of this problem, any acknowledgement of global warming could threaten the very life of my corporation.

This part of me will throw money all day at any scientist willing to issue a report trying to debunk the issue. This part of me will throw money at any politician willing to discredit/silence the issue. This part of me will also go to lengths to ensure that an effective PR campaign is waged on all fronts to plant even the smallest seed of doubt in the consumers mind.

Why? Any policy shifts to eradicate the problem will cut into my paper and i'm not having it. At least not willingly.

Conversely, the other half of me (how well we humans can compartmentalize!) knows that the other part is a greedy, dollar worshipping chump who would go to the ends of the earth to make that money. Because of this, the humanitarian side of me COUNTS ON THE GOVERNMENT to do its part and RESTRAIN me, just as it does by forcing minimum wage laws (too low) and other environmental standards.

Believe me- if you leave the problem to the corporations we are all going to lose in the end. Thing is, I run PR campaigns letting the consumer know we are trying to solve the problem. This is pure lip service, but joe american believes every word of it. Plus, he saw a documentary which planted some doubt in his mind.

I win.

Not for nothing, at least the rest of the world isn't stupid enough to let us get away with this bullshit. But as long as there is cake, we will eat. Unfortunately, back home in America, folks are still stuck on stupid when it comes to global warming.

  

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Nettrice
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86. "Good response"
In response to Reply # 84


  

          

>Believe me- if you leave the problem to the corporations we
>are all going to lose in the end. Thing is, I run PR campaigns
>letting the consumer know we are trying to solve the problem.
>This is pure lip service, but joe american believes every word
>of it. Plus, he saw a documentary which planted some doubt in
>his mind.
>
>I win.
>
>Not for nothing, at least the rest of the world isn't stupid
>enough to let us get away with this bullshit. But as long as
>there is cake, we will eat. Unfortunately, back home in
>America, folks are still stuck on stupid when it comes to
>global warming.

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
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Tue Mar-13-07 09:03 AM

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89. "Please don't get me started on Malsanto"
In response to Reply # 73


  

          

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." © Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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40thStreetBlack
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81. "^^^ lives in Manitoba"
In response to Reply # 71


  

          

>What waspy little planet are you living on?

<--------- Harvey BETTER

  

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mcdeezjawns
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82. "HAHA"
In response to Reply # 81


  

          

beautiful

  

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isotope
Member since May 07th 2006
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Tue Mar-13-07 05:22 PM

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91. "Manitoba..WASPY ?"
In response to Reply # 81


  

          

Oh--no doubt.

Not quite as WASPY and predictable as OkPlayer,though.


http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=62415979

  

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40thStreetBlack
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97. "you're white"
In response to Reply # 91


  

          

get over it already.

<--------- Harvey BETTER

  

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mcdeezjawns
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100. "But some of his best friends are black..."
In response to Reply # 97


  

          

  

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isotope
Member since May 07th 2006
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Sun Mar-18-07 05:19 PM

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118. "^ YOU need to "get over" me being white ..not me."
In response to Reply # 97


  

          


http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=62415979

  

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40thStreetBlack
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120. "^^^ obsessive negrophile - exhibit A:"
In response to Reply # 118


  

          

http://board.okayplayer.com/okp.php?az=show_topic&forum=9&topic_id=91235&mesg_id=91235&listing_type=search#91527

<--------- Harvey BETTER

  

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isotope
Member since May 07th 2006
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Mon Mar-19-07 06:33 PM

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121. "^ Quite obsessed ,aren't you?"
In response to Reply # 120
Mon Mar-19-07 06:34 PM by isotope

  

          

What do you do--archive these links?

Yup--I think lots of beautiful people come from the Great Lakes Region of Africa.
And you?
Yes/no?


Are you the best OkPlayer has to offer?

Wow---its like nursery school in here sometimes.
OkPlayers like 40thStreat have a way of bringing it to that level of vapid sillyness.


Some people love European Culture/History and Art.

I love AfroCaribbean and African American Art,History,Politics,Culture.


And in 40th's mind--that makes me "obsessed" with "negroes" as HE calls them.


FUCKIN BRILLIANT!!!!

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=62415979

  

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40thStreetBlack
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126. "nice avy."
In response to Reply # 121
Tue Mar-20-07 02:08 PM by 40thStreetBlack

  

          

>Yup--I think lots of beautiful people come from the Great
>Lakes Region of Africa.

you said just about everyone from there is beautiful - they're not chocolate mannequins, you sick fetishizing fuck, they're human beings.

>And you?
>Yes/no?

Yup - I just don't fetishize them like you do.

(oh and Sudan's not in the Great Lakes region, you dumb canuck)


>Are you the best OkPlayer has to offer?

well I'm not the worst... you're vying for that title, though.


>Wow---its like nursery school in here sometimes.
>OkPlayers like 40thStreat have a way of bringing it to that
>level of vapid sillyness.

"Africans are beautiful because they look like dark chocolate"

"Africans are the sweetest most genuine people"

I mean damn, you basically reduce us in your insipid imagination to caramelized children, you twisted bastard.



>Some people love European Culture/History and Art.
>
>I love AfroCaribbean and African American
>Art,History,Politics,Culture.

i.e., you're a negrophile:

http://www.bartleby.com/61/25/N0052500.html

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition. 2000.

Negrophile

SYLLABICATION: Ne·gro·phile

NOUN: One who admires and supports Black people and their culture.



>And in 40th's mind--that makes me "obsessed" with "negroes" as
>HE calls them.
>
>
>FUCKIN BRILLIANT!!!!

So now you're gonna tell me what terms I can and can't use in regard to black people, white boy?

LOL - I'd hit you with a "nigga please"... but you're white.

<--------- Harvey BETTER

  

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isotope
Member since May 07th 2006
335 posts
Tue Mar-20-07 07:24 PM

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128. "^ I'll leave you to your obsessions."
In response to Reply # 126


  

          




http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=62415979

  

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40thStreetBlack
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Sat Mar-24-07 04:35 PM

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133. "I'll leave you to your sad, pale white life of obsessive negro envy"
In response to Reply # 128


  

          

<--------- Harvey BETTER

  

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isotope
Member since May 07th 2006
335 posts
Mon Mar-26-07 12:22 PM

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136. ".... ^^ LOL!!...."
In response to Reply # 133
Mon Mar-26-07 12:23 PM by isotope

  

          

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=62415979

  

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40thStreetBlack
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Mon Mar-26-07 03:59 PM

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138. "RE: .... ^^ LOL!!...."
In response to Reply # 136


  

          

http://www.blackpeopleloveus.com/


<--------- Harvey BETTER

  

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isotope
Member since May 07th 2006
335 posts
Tue Mar-27-07 01:18 AM

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140. "Thats an OLD ONE..^^"
In response to Reply # 138


  

          

from the BlackPlanet days with ruggid and Isome...


yawn....
http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=62415979

  

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40thStreetBlack
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Tue Mar-27-07 07:23 PM

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141. "the funniest thing is, they were making fun of people like you"
In response to Reply # 140
Tue Mar-27-07 07:25 PM by 40thStreetBlack

  

          

but you're so oblivious you don't even know it.

<--------- Harvey BETTER

  

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bassndaplace
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Tue Mar-13-07 03:45 PM

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90. "Hmm..."
In response to Reply # 0


          


I'm interested to hear thoughts on Dr. Lovelock's theory...

http://www.ecolo.org/lovelock/index.htm

**************************************

www.scottstewartphotos.com

  

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ConcreteCharlie
Member since Nov 21st 2002
46372 posts
Thu Mar-15-07 05:59 PM

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105. "As usual, the truth lies inbetween"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

On one hand, environmental journalism is not exactly a high paying or prestigious field, but on the other I do think there is a vested interest among journalists and activists to run with the evidence that they have. That's true of almost any cause.

Simultaneously though, we have a massive portion of the scientific community that does believe there is a pretty exigent issue.

And, of course, the average person cares about the issue depending upon whether it's hot or cold outside. Way to go, America!

<<< Ben Revere's midnight WHOO-RIDE

  

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ovBismarck
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Fri Mar-16-07 10:21 AM

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106. "Thanks..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

global warming posts are never dull. Gotta love folks acting like Stravinskian goes to University of Phoenix and shit.

-------------
A seal walks into a club.

  

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Cre8
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125. "explains a lot"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

never liked how the whole global warming campaign faults the individual driving their car, throwing a candy rapper on the ground, using deoderant spray rather than companies.

Food/Drink PlayersCookbook Info:
To help: L9 Health Clinic http://www.commongroundrelief.org/node/242
DEADLINE: November 22, 2006
Please submit your recipes to playerscookbook@yahoo.com or inbox and don't forget PHOTOS.

*********************************

  

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mark1360
Member since May 05th 2007
16 posts
Thu May-24-07 08:09 PM

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146. "RE: The Great Global Warming Swindle"
In response to Reply # 0


          

yes...it is a conspiracy by petrolium companies to get rid of competition...get these greenies and hippies behind enviromental groups to lobby the government to maintain their monopoly by not allowing the building of new refineries and constrict supply...also the uneconomical production of bio fuels...which guess what? cost 2-4 times more, even use fossil fuels in their production and still produce CO2

jhjhff
http://isaiah34.net/Son-of-Perdition-revealed.htm

  

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zavidovici
Member since Feb 21st 2007
1658 posts
Sun May-27-07 09:33 PM

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148. "thank you, not to mention global carbon tax (n/m)"
In response to Reply # 146


  

          

  

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the sway
Member since Sep 08th 2002
3186 posts
Mon May-28-07 12:59 PM

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149. "then why do so many gas companies fund anti-global warming"
In response to Reply # 146


          

think tanks?

  

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DurhamNCredible
Member since Jan 02nd 2007
132 posts
Sun May-27-07 08:19 PM

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147. "RE: The Great Global Warming Swindle"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Speaking of global warming check out "Hot As Hell" at my site...
http://www.daylightondemand.org/index.php

::: I heard y'all was mad. Man, it's about time! - Truck North :::

  

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The Damaja
Member since Aug 02nd 2003
18637 posts
Fri Apr-03-09 09:41 AM

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151. "more etherage:"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/christopherbooker/5067351/Rise-of-sea-levels-is-the-greatest-lie-ever-told.html

Rise of sea levels is 'the greatest lie ever told'
The uncompromising verdict of Dr Mörner is that all this talk about the sea rising is nothing but a colossal scare story, writes Christopher Booker.

Christopher Booker
Last Updated: 6:31PM GMT 28 Mar 2009
Comments 150 | Comment on this article
If one thing more than any other is used to justify proposals that the world must spend tens of trillions of dollars on combating global warming, it is the belief that we face a disastrous rise in sea levels. The Antarctic and Greenland ice caps will melt, we are told, warming oceans will expand, and the result will be catastrophe.
Although the UN's Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) only predicts a sea level rise of 59cm (17 inches) by 2100, Al Gore in his Oscar-winning film An Inconvenient Truth went much further, talking of 20 feet, and showing computer graphics of cities such as Shanghai and San Francisco half under water. We all know the graphic showing central London in similar plight. As for tiny island nations such as the Maldives and Tuvalu, as Prince Charles likes to tell us and the Archbishop of Canterbury was again parroting last week, they are due to vanish.

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Melting permafrost could trigger 'unstoppable' climate change
But if there is one scientist who knows more about sea levels than anyone else in the world it is the Swedish geologist and physicist Nils-Axel Mörner, formerly chairman of the INQUA International Commission on Sea Level Change. And the uncompromising verdict of Dr Mörner, who for 35 years has been using every known scientific method to study sea levels all over the globe, is that all this talk about the sea rising is nothing but a colossal scare story.
Despite fluctuations down as well as up, "the sea is not rising," he says. "It hasn't risen in 50 years." If there is any rise this century it will "not be more than 10cm (four inches), with an uncertainty of plus or minus 10cm". And quite apart from examining the hard evidence, he says, the elementary laws of physics (latent heat needed to melt ice) tell us that the apocalypse conjured up by
Al Gore and Co could not possibly come about.
The reason why Dr Mörner, formerly a Stockholm professor, is so certain that these claims about sea level rise are 100 per cent wrong is that they are all based on computer model predictions, whereas his findings are based on "going into the field to observe what is actually happening in the real world".
When running the International Commission on Sea Level Change, he launched a special project on the Maldives, whose leaders have for 20 years been calling for vast sums of international aid to stave off disaster. Six times he and his expert team visited the islands, to confirm that the sea has not risen for half a century. Before announcing his findings, he offered to show the inhabitants a film explaining why they had nothing to worry about. The government refused to let it be shown.
Similarly in Tuvalu, where local leaders have been calling for the inhabitants to be evacuated for 20 years, the sea has if anything dropped in recent decades. The only evidence the scaremongers can cite is based on the fact that extracting groundwater for pineapple growing has allowed seawater to seep in to replace it. Meanwhile, Venice has been sinking rather than the Adriatic rising, says Dr Mörner.
One of his most shocking discoveries was why the IPCC has been able to show sea levels rising by 2.3mm a year. Until 2003, even its own satellite-based evidence showed no upward trend. But suddenly the graph tilted upwards because the IPCC's favoured experts had drawn on the finding of a single tide-gauge in Hong Kong harbour showing a 2.3mm rise. The entire global sea-level projection was then adjusted upwards by a "corrective factor" of 2.3mm, because, as the IPCC scientists admitted, they "needed to show a trend".
When I spoke to Dr Mörner last week, he expressed his continuing dismay at how the IPCC has fed the scare on this crucial issue. When asked to act as an "expert reviewer" on the IPCC's last two reports, he was "astonished to find that not one of their 22 contributing authors on sea levels was a sea level specialist: not one". Yet the results of all this "deliberate ignorance" and reliance on rigged computer models have become the most powerful single driver of the entire warmist hysteria.
•For more information, see Dr Mörner on YouTube (Google Mörner, Maldives and YouTube); or read on the net his 2007 EIR interview "Claim that sea level is rising is a total fraud"; or email him – morner@pog.nu – to buy a copy of his booklet 'The Greatest Lie Ever Told'

--------------------
Why do you choose to mimic these wack MCs?
Why do you choose to listen to R&B?

"There are obviously many things which we do not understand, and may never be able to." Leela

*puts emceeing in a box*

  

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Castro
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39459 posts
Fri May-01-09 07:36 AM

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152. "Up."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

..........

  

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Earl Flynn
Member since Dec 08th 2005
28747 posts
Fri May-01-09 08:13 AM

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153. "Police Caught On Tape Trying to Recruit Protester (w/audio)"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Listened to a little bit on my Iphone last night on the way home from work.

Climate change activist taped men who offered cash for information about group's members and activities
Paul Lewis
guardian.co.uk, Friday 24 April 2009 18.18 BST

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/apr/24/strathclyde-police-plane-stupid-recruit-spy

Audio clip 1:
http://download.guardian.co.uk/audio/kip/standalone/uk/1240589329473/4834/POLICE_CLIP_1.mp3

Audio clip 2:
http://download.guardian.co.uk/audio/kip/standalone/uk/1240583063174/4476/POLICE_CLIP_2.mp3

Audio clip 3:
http://download.guardian.co.uk/audio/kip/standalone/uk/1240596704239/6293/police-clip-new-3.mp3



Undercover police are running a network of hundreds of informants inside protest organisations who secretly feed them intelligence in return for cash, according to evidence handed to the Guardian.

They claim to have infiltrated a number of environmental groups and said they are receiving information about leaders, tactics and plans of future demonstrations.

The dramatic disclosures are revealed in almost three hours of secretly recorded discussions between covert officers claiming to be from Strathclyde police, and an activist from the protest group Plane Stupid, whom the officers attempted to recruit as a paid spy after she had been released on bail following a demonstration at Aberdeen airport last month.

Matilda Gifford, 24, said she recorded the meetings in an attempt to expose how police seek to disrupt the legitimate activities of climate change activists. She met the officers twice; they said they were a detective constable and his assistant. During the taped discussions, the officers:

• Indicate that she could receive tens of thousands of pounds to pay off her student loans in return for information about individuals within Plane Stupid.

• Say they will not pay money direct into her bank account because that would leave an audit trail that would leave her compromised. They said the money would be tax-free, and added: "UK plc can afford more than 20 quid."

• Accept that she is a legitimate protester, but warn her that her activity could mean she will struggle to find employment in the future and result in a criminal record.

• Claim they have hundreds of informants feeding them information from protest organisations and "big groupings" from across the political spectrum.

• Explain that spying could assist her if she was arrested. "People would sell their soul to the devil," an officer said.

• Warn her that she could be jailed alongside "hard, evil" people if she received a custodial sentence.

The meetings took place in a Glasgow police station last month and in a supermarket cafe on Tuesday. Gifford used a mobile phone and device sewn into her waistcoat to record what they described as a "business proposal" that she should think of as a job.

They intimated that in return for updates on Plane Stupid's plans she could receive large sums of money in cash.

When lawyers acting for Plane Stupid contacted Strathclyde police this week to establish the identities of the detective constable, they were initially told by the human resources department there was no record of his name.

But when the Guardian contacted the force, they acknowledged officers had had meetings with Plane Stupid activists.

In a statement last night, assistant chief constable George Hamilton said the force had "a responsibility to gather intelligence", and such operations were conducted according to the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act (RIPA). The force would not comment on the identity of the officers.

"Officers from Strathclyde police have been in contact with a number of protesters who were involved with the Plane Stupid protests including Aberdeen airport," he said. "The purpose of this contact has been to ensure that any future protest activity is carried out within the law and in a manner which respects the rights of all concerned."

Gifford's lawyer, Patrick Campbell, said: "I have very considerable concerns about these events. There appears to be a covert operation that is running in some way with, or using, Strathclyde police's name. There appears to be a concerted effort to turn protesters to informants and possibly infiltrate peaceful protest movements.

He added: "The methods employed are disturbing, and more worrying yet is the lack of any clearly identifiable body responsible for this. These individuals seem to have some kind of police support or at the very least connections with the police – the access to police stations confirms that – but my concern is the lack of accountability and the threat to the individual and her right to protest."

Gifford intended to meet the officers for a third time on Thursday, taking a lawyer with her. But the officers did not appear at the rendezvous. However, she said she was later approached by the detective constable, who said he was disappointed in her. The man got into a car, leaving Gifford feeling shaken and intimidated.

She said last night that the initial approach from the officers was "an opportunity that fell out of the sky". She added: "Recording them seemed like the obvious thing to do. I was keen to find out what they had to offer, what they wanted to find out, and feed that back to the group in case other members of Plane Stupid were approached."

In a statement, Plane Stupid said: "Our civil liberties were invaded and our right to peaceful protest called into question simply to defend the interests of big business."

  

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The Damaja
Member since Aug 02nd 2003
18637 posts
Sat Nov-21-09 06:54 PM

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155. "British scientists caught fabricating global warming data and suppressin..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

opposing research

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/jamesdelingpole/100017393/climategate-the-final-nail-in-the-coffin-of-anthropogenic-global-warming/

:/

--------------------
Why do you choose to mimic these wack MCs?
Why do you choose to listen to R&B?

"There are obviously many things which we do not understand, and may never be able to." Leela

*puts emceeing in a box*

  

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foxnesn
Charter member
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Tue Nov-24-09 02:21 AM

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156. "RE: British scientists caught fabricating global warming data and suppre..."
In response to Reply # 155


  

          

*cough*

  

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PimpMacula
Member since Dec 19th 2006
12972 posts
Tue Nov-24-09 11:30 AM

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157. "The media is NOT talking about it!!!"
In response to Reply # 155


  

          

AP article:
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5j9MrjlmXzORMlHNvYfE9yAlgtiBwD9C4OSH03

  

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foxnesn
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Tue Nov-24-09 05:02 PM

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158. "RE: The media is NOT talking about it!!!"
In response to Reply # 157


  

          

right, it is the person who exposed the lies who is bad, not the people who have perpetrated the biggest scam in world history...

  

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PimpMacula
Member since Dec 19th 2006
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Tue Nov-24-09 08:48 PM

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159. "dude, seriously. it's just sad how they're spinning this and "
In response to Reply # 158


  

          

nobody is the wiser... i try to tell people about this hoax and they just look @ me with the glazed eyes.

this shit should be worldwide breaking news on every station... smh

  

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foxnesn
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Wed Nov-25-09 11:11 AM

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160. "RE: dude, seriously. it's just sad how they're spinning this and "
In response to Reply # 159


  

          

it is actually disturbing, truly disturbing, the lack of national coverage on this scandal. it is almost like it is too late! people have been fully brainwashed and will give up everything to a bunch of politicians so long as they dont burn up the earth...

  

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Earl Flynn
Member since Dec 08th 2005
28747 posts
Fri Nov-27-09 11:43 AM

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168. "^^^^"
In response to Reply # 160


  

          

I told you that was my last conspiracy post

  

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temps2020
Member since Oct 21st 2003
8421 posts
Wed Nov-25-09 03:40 PM

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161. "damn pimp, can't believe your a global warming denier"
In response to Reply # 157


  

          


"Dikembe Mutombo blockin' all attempts"

http://www.last.fm/user/temps2020/

  

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Earl Flynn
Member since Dec 08th 2005
28747 posts
Fri Nov-27-09 11:42 AM

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167. "Just one article on CBS and a commentary on FOX"
In response to Reply # 157


  

          

-

  

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PimpMacula
Member since Dec 19th 2006
12972 posts
Fri Nov-27-09 03:07 PM

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170. "RE: Just one article on CBS and a commentary on FOX"
In response to Reply # 167


  

          

ironically, fox news is the ONLY station giving this story any light. and the segment i saw couldn't have been longer than 5 minutes...

  

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Earl Flynn
Member since Dec 08th 2005
28747 posts
Fri Nov-27-09 05:45 PM

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171. "its safe to say this will be swept"
In response to Reply # 170


  

          

so you know the drill

  

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temps2020
Member since Oct 21st 2003
8421 posts
Wed Nov-25-09 03:41 PM

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162. "bullshit, the best scientists around the world all agree on "
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

global warming. the scientists who deny are a bunch of hacks and nobodies making shit up to fit their agenda.

"Dikembe Mutombo blockin' all attempts"

http://www.last.fm/user/temps2020/

  

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Midtown Records
Member since Sep 29th 2006
4776 posts
Wed Nov-25-09 07:17 PM

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163. "Yeah, that sure convinces me."
In response to Reply # 162


  

          

__________

Lamentations 3:26
It is good that a man should both hope and quietly wait for the salvation of the LORD.

  

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PimpMacula
Member since Dec 19th 2006
12972 posts
Thu Nov-26-09 08:49 AM

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164. "dude, all you have to do is conduct some research into the matter"
In response to Reply # 162
Thu Nov-26-09 08:50 AM by PimpMacula

  

          

and I don't mean CNN/CNBC archives. i mean actually research the topic and the viewpoints of the scientific community at large. thousands of credible scientists have publicly rejected the global warming theory and there is even a petition with 31,000+ names (that has been conveniently sequestered from public knowledge by the media)
http://www.tulsabeacon.com/?p=462

it is being guised as a worldwide philanthropic endeavor that is environmentally friendly. however, there are countless tax/oversight implications that most people are simply not aware of. on top of that, hackers just uncovered 160 MB of emails from the University of East Anglia with WRITTEN CORRESPONDENCE (validated by the scientists and Phil Jones) between both scientists and policy makers attempting to skew and hide the numbers (which have are actually disproving the theory).

just do a google search man, the mainstream media is not covering this story at all, and if they are, they're putting a lame spin on it, trying to condemn the hackers, lol!
but you can still find links all over the internet
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5j9MrjlmXzORMlHNvYfE9yAlgtiBwD9C4OSH03
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/nov/24/hiding-evidence-of-global-cooling/

don't buy into this scam like everyone else.

  

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temps2020
Member since Oct 21st 2003
8421 posts
Thu Dec-03-09 04:10 PM

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177. "seriously, do you think i listen to CNN/CNBC, i have done plenty"
In response to Reply # 164


  

          

>and I don't mean CNN/CNBC archives. i mean actually research
>the topic and the viewpoints of the scientific community at
>large. thousands of credible scientists have publicly rejected
>the global warming theory and there is even a petition with
>31,000+ names (that has been conveniently sequestered from
>public knowledge by the media)
>http://www.tulsabeacon.com/?p=462
>
>it is being guised as a worldwide philanthropic endeavor that
>is environmentally friendly. however, there are countless
>tax/oversight implications that most people are simply not
>aware of. on top of that, hackers just uncovered 160 MB of
>emails from the University of East Anglia with WRITTEN
>CORRESPONDENCE (validated by the scientists and Phil Jones)
>between both scientists and policy makers attempting to skew
>and hide the numbers (which have are actually disproving the
>theory).
>
>just do a google search man, the mainstream media is not
>covering this story at all, and if they are, they're putting a
>lame spin on it, trying to condemn the hackers, lol!
>but you can still find links all over the internet
>http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5j9MrjlmXzORMlHNvYfE9yAlgtiBwD9C4OSH03
>http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/nov/24/hiding-evidence-of-global-cooling/
>
>don't buy into this scam like everyone else.

of research and i work at a major university with scientists working on this themselves. did you read anything strav posted about this that blows all this bullshit out of the water, including those emails. all those emails do is unveil some bad conduct on the part of one expert but do nothing to prove that global warming--made global warming is a hoax. NASA, NOAA, and the Japan Meteorological Agency all agree there is warming. ahh, the must all be part of the grand conspiracy eliminating data to support their theories. many scientific publications including nature have openly addressed the issue of using this "trick" that all you deniers are claiming was used to prove a hoax.

ah, yes, your google links, which are just to support this bullshit conspiracy theory that there's no global warming. only yahoos that are not credible scientists and cats in this post and alex jones supporters believe this shit.

give me names, a list of educated scientists with real experience in this field that do not agree that there is global warming. show me.
>

  

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foxnesn
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Fri Nov-27-09 10:09 AM

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165. "RE: bullshit, the best scientists around the world all agree on "
In response to Reply # 162
Fri Nov-27-09 10:13 AM by foxnesn

  

          

considering those "scientists" emails have been uncovered showing through their communication how they went about manipulating data to prove their crappy theories pretty much debunks your point. emails regarding the terrible job of peer reviews also included and info about the infamous hockey stick and tree ring studies.

http://www.examiner.com/x-31244-Louisville-Public-Policy-Examiner~y2009m11d27-Global-warming-fraud-uncovered

people in the UK are pissed about this and they have national coverage. here in the US, nothing. you have to ask yourself, who is going to profit from global warming? the US governement will if they pass the Cap and Trade bill (crap and tax bill.)

  

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temps2020
Member since Oct 21st 2003
8421 posts
Thu Dec-03-09 03:56 PM

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176. "jeez, you are an idiot, you are such a fucking cherrypicker"
In response to Reply # 165


  

          

>considering those "scientists" emails have been uncovered
>showing through their communication how they went about
>manipulating data to prove their crappy theories pretty much
>debunks your point. emails regarding the terrible job of peer
>reviews also included and info about the infamous hockey stick
>and tree ring studies.
>
>http://www.examiner.com/x-31244-Louisville-Public-Policy-Examiner~y2009m11d27-Global-warming-fraud-uncovered
>
>people in the UK are pissed about this and they have national
>coverage. here in the US, nothing. you have to ask yourself,
>who is going to profit from global warming? the US governement
>will if they pass the Cap and Trade bill (crap and tax bill.)

some emails by some idiot scientists means all the best scientists in the world are part of a grand conspiracy and this is all bullshit. you had nothing to say to strav's post which blew your bullshit out of the water.

  

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Earl Flynn
Member since Dec 08th 2005
28747 posts
Fri Nov-27-09 10:58 AM

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166. "Leaked e-mails suggest climate experts rigged data"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

http://www.detnews.com/article/20091127/OPINION03/911270333/1031

  

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Earl Flynn
Member since Dec 08th 2005
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Fri Nov-27-09 12:08 PM

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169. "Your Movement Has Been Hijacked "
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

But first I wanted to share an excerpt from the Operation Vampire Killer 2000 Action Plan document I've posted numerous times in the past and how it relates to this topic. On point yet again...

http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:xXEr7oRqD7gJ:www.lawfulpath.com/ref/vk2k.shtml+operation+vampire+killer+2000+enviromentalists&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

* * * PLAN B * * *

The globalists, along with their controlled media, are well along in the promotion of their PLAN B program. Here it is: With the threat of nuclear war supposedly subsiding, the American people "must have" a new Boogie Man!

ECOLOGICAL COLLAPSE: This phase involves the fraud of the "imminent ecological collapse of the world". This phase is being promoted by those who were not able to completely destroy America with Marxism. These N.W.O. Marxists have therefore started, or taken over, the various GREEN (environmentalist) parties.

Many of these environmentalists are rightfully labeled the "Watermelons of the world". That is to say, green on the outside, but RED (Marxist) on the inside. Many wonderful, good, well-intentioned Americans are being duped into assisting with this fraud. Sadly, some are our families and friends.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEggt0ldQUI&feature=player_embedded

A Message to the Environmental Movement: Your Movement Has Been Hijacked
Text size
James Corbett
The Corbett Report
November 25, 2009

The Corbett Report has released a new video message to the environmental movement. Watch the video by clicking here or in the embedded player.


Transcript: This is James Corbett of corbettreport.com and I come here today with a message for you.

You the environmentalists, you the activists, you the campaigners.

You who have watched with growing concern the ways in which the world around us has been ravaged in the pursuit of the almighty dollar.

You who are concerned with the state of the planet that we are leaving for our children and our grandchildren and those generations yet unborn.

This is not a message of divisiveness, but cooperation.

This is a message of hope and empowerment, but it requires us to look at a hard and uncomfortable truth:

Your movement has been usurped by the very same financial interests you thought you were fighting against.

You have suspected as much for years.

You watched at first with hope and excitement as your movement, your cause, your message began to spread, as it was taken up by the media and given attention, as conferences were organized and as the ideas you had struggled so long and hard to be heard were talked about nationally. Then internationally.

You watched with growing unease as the message was simplified. First it became a slogan. Then it became a brand. Soon it was nothing more than a label and it became attached to products. The ideas you had once fought for were now being sold back to you. For profit.

You watched with growing unease as the message became parroted, not argued, worn like a fashion rather than something that came from the conviction of understanding.

You disagreed when the slogans–and then the science–were dumbed down. When carbon dioxide became the focus and CO2 was taken up as a political cause. Soon it was the only cause.

You knew that Al Gore was not a scientist, that his evidence was factually incorrect, that the movement was being taken over by a cause that was not your own, one that relied on beliefs you did not share to propose a solution you did not want. It began to reach a breaking point when you saw that the solutions being proposed were not solutions at all, when they began to propose new taxes and new markets that would only serve to line their own pockets.

You knew something was wrong when you saw them argue for a cap-and-trade scheme proposed by Ken Lay, when you saw Goldman Sachs position itself to ride the carbon trading bubble, when the whole thrust of the movement became ways to make money or spend money or raise money from this panic.

Your movement had been hijacked.

The realization came the first time you read The Club of Rome’s 1991 book, The First Global Revolution, which says:

“In searching for a common enemy against whom we can unite, we came up with the idea that pollution, the threat of global warming, water shortages, famine and the like, would fit the bill. In their totality and their interactions these phenomena do constitute a common threat which must be confronted by everyone together. But in designating these dangers as the enemy, we fall into the trap, which we have already warned readers about, namely mistaking symptoms for causes. All these dangers are caused by human intervention in natural processes, and it is only through changed attitudes and behaviour that they can be overcome. The real enemy then is humanity itself.”
And when you looked at the Club of Rome’s elite member roster. And when you learnt about eugenics and the Rockefeller ties to the Kaiser Willhelm Institute and the practice of crypto-eugenics and the rise of overpopulation fearmongering and the call by elitist after elitist after elitist to cull the world population.


A d v e r t i s e m e n t

Still, you wanted to believe that there was some basis of truth, something real and valuable in the single-minded obsession of this hijacked environmental movement with manmade global warming.

Now, in November 2009, the last traces of doubt have been removed.

Last week, an insider leaked internal documents and emails from the Climate Research Unit of East Anglia University and exposed the lies, manipulation and fraud behind the studies that supposedly show 0.6 degrees Celsius of warming over the last 130 years. And the hockey stick graph that supposedly shows unprecedented warming in our times. And the alarmist warning of impending climate disaster.

We now know that these scientists wrote programming notes in the source code of their own climate models admitting that results were being manually adjusted.

We now know that values were being adjusted to conform to scientists’ wishes, not reality.

We now know that the peer review process itself was being perverted to exclude those scientists whose work criticized their findings.

We now know that these scientists privately expressed doubts about the science that they publicly claimed to be settled.

We now know, in short, that they were lying.

It is unknown as yet what the fallout will be from all of this, but it is evident that the fallout will be substantial.

With this crisis, however, comes an opportunity. An opportunity to recapture the movement that the financiers have stolen from the people.

Together, we can demand a full and independent investigation into all of the researchers whose work was implicated in the CRU affair.

We can demand a full re-evaluation of all those studies whose conclusions have been thrown into question by these revelations, and all of the public policy that has been based on those studies.

We can establish new standards of transparency for scientists whose work is taxpayer funded and/or whose work effects public policy, so that everyone has full and equal access to the data used to calculate results and all of the source code used in all of the programs used to model that data.

In other words, we can reaffirm that no cause is worth supporting that requires deception for its propagation.

Even more importantly, we can take back the environmental movement.

We can begin to concentrate on the serious questions that need to be asked about the genetic engineering technology whereby hybrid organisms and new, never-before-seen proteins that are being released into the biosphere in a giant, uncontrolled experiment that threatens the very genome of life on this planet.

We can look into the environmental causes of the explosion in cancer and the staggering drops in fertility over the last 50 years, including the BPA in our plastics and the anti-androgens in the water.

We can examine regulatory agencies that are controlled by the very corporations they are supposedly watching over.

We can begin focusing on depleted uranium and the dumping of toxic waste into the rivers and all of the issues that we once knew were part of the mandate of the real environmental movement.

Or we can, as some have, descend into petty partisan politics. We can decide that lies are OK if they support ‘our’ side. We can defend the reprehensible actions of the CRU researchers and rally around the green flag that has long since been captured by the enemy.

It is a simple decision to make, but one that we must make quickly, before the argument can be spun away and environmentalism can go back to business as usual.

We are at a crossroads of history. And make no mistake, history will be the final judge of our actions. So I leave you today with a simple question: Which side of history do you want to be on?

For The Corbett Report, this is James Corbett in western Japan.

  

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The Damaja
Member since Aug 02nd 2003
18637 posts
Sat Nov-28-09 05:46 PM

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172. "good breakdown of the climate-gate hack data - POTENT ETHER"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

alleges that not only were researchers manually changing data, as per the emails, but the computer programs that modeled the data had in-built mechanisms to skew trends

cause the hacker exposed their source code as well, and source code contains programmers' comments

http://www.americanthinker.com/2009/11/crus_source_code_climategate_r.html

they're still working through the stuff though

--------------------
Why do you choose to mimic these wack MCs?
Why do you choose to listen to R&B?

"There are obviously many things which we do not understand, and may never be able to." Leela

*puts emceeing in a box*

  

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Eric B Is Prez
Member since Nov 08th 2005
4045 posts
Mon Nov-30-09 04:13 PM

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173. "Even if we pretended that this were true for a moment..."
In response to Reply # 0
Mon Nov-30-09 04:15 PM by Eric B Is Prez

  

          

I'd love to hear a coherent theory on who would gain ANYTHING (materially) by perpetuating a false theory of global warming...aside from Al Gore and his speaking engagements, of course.

What would be the ulterior motive behind the unprecedented worldwide consensus among the world's scientists on global warming?

(and, just to save everyone's valuable time, don't say "publicity" because scientists get publicity by presenting a groundbreaking NEW theory, not by jumping on board with an existing consensus)

You can only assume foul play or conspiracy if someone stands to benefit. We all know who gets rich with the continued use of petroleum-based energy. But if global warming is proven to be true...who wins out?

I'll wait.

_______________________________________________________________________________________

There are too many ghosts in this town

  

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foxnesn
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Fri Dec-04-09 03:19 PM

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183. "RE: Even if we pretended that this were true for a moment..."
In response to Reply # 173


  

          

>I'd love to hear a coherent theory on who would gain ANYTHING
>(materially) by perpetuating a false theory of global
>warming...aside from Al Gore and his speaking engagements, of
>course.
>
>What would be the ulterior motive behind the unprecedented
>worldwide consensus among the world's scientists on global
>warming?
>
>(and, just to save everyone's valuable time, don't say
>"publicity" because scientists get publicity by presenting a
>groundbreaking NEW theory, not by jumping on board with an
>existing consensus)

who do you think most of these scientists get their funding from?

>You can only assume foul play or conspiracy if someone stands
>to benefit. We all know who gets rich with the continued use
>of petroleum-based energy. But if global warming is proven to
>be true...who wins out?
>
>I'll wait.

who stands to get rich if global warming is a big hoax? well the fed govt gets a lot richer. a massive expansion in power through cap and trade and just another means to control how you live your life.

there is absolutely no way to now verify any of the theories prosposed by the studies on global warming. and the emails show that at the MAIN climate research institute in the world they were hiding the cooling trend. then they destroyed the only means to actually verify the truth and the peer reviews were never actually done properly.

  

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Earl Flynn
Member since Dec 08th 2005
28747 posts
Thu Dec-03-09 09:40 AM

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175. "Earth could plunge into sudden ice age.... LOL!"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

In the film, "The Day After Tomorrow," the world gets gripped in ice within the span of just a few weeks. Now research now suggests an eerily similar event might indeed have occurred in the past.

Looking ahead to the future, there is no reason why such a freeze shouldn't happen again — and in ironic fashion it could be precipitated if ongoing changes in climate force the Greenland ice sheet to suddenly melt, scientists say.


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34242705/ns/technology_and_science-science/

  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
4677 posts
Thu Dec-03-09 05:34 PM

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178. "I'm gonna need an hour or so "
In response to Reply # 0


          

to get through this thread.

But everyone should see the movie. I don't think it's a conspiracy-touting piece of shit like 'Loose Change'. It had my ears and affected my views on the issue. It sounded reasonable to me. Good movie.

I guess I'm also a little skeptical because there have been other doomsday theories that didn't account for new variables in the future. The ozone layer depletion was all the rage when I was in grammer school. What happened to that? Before I was born you had the Malthuse (spelling?) overpopulation theory. The one thing these predictions had in common is that they didn't account for new adaptations and variables in their models.

In any case...looking forward to my daughter's bedtime so I can get through this thread.

  

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Earl Flynn
Member since Dec 08th 2005
28747 posts
Fri Dec-04-09 03:17 PM

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182. "Schwarzenegger Shovels it"
In response to Reply # 0
Fri Dec-04-09 03:17 PM by Earl Flynn

  

          

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9VUZS8AqYY

  

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temps2020
Member since Oct 21st 2003
8421 posts
Sat Dec-12-09 04:43 PM

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184. "here, even the AP said those hijacked emails prove nothing, you nitwits ..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          


AP IMPACT: Science not faked, but not pretty
AP

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This Dec. 10, 2009 photo shows a sign at the University of East Anglia in AP – This Dec. 10, 2009 photo shows a sign at the University of East Anglia in Norwich, England. E-mails stolen …

* Climate Summit: EPA wants to legislate greenhouse gases Play Video Video:Climate Summit: EPA wants to legislate greenhouse gases AP
* Climate change protests across globe Play Video Video:Climate change protests across globe Reuters
* EU pledges 10 billion dollars to climate battle Play Video Video:EU pledges 10 billion dollars to climate battle AFP

BY SETH BORENSTEIN, RAPHAEL SATTER and MALCOLM RITTER, Associated Press Writers Seth Borenstein, Raphael Satter And Malcolm Ritter, Associated Press Writers – Sat Dec 12, 2:31 pm ET

LONDON – E-mails stolen from climate scientists show they stonewalled skeptics and discussed hiding data — but the messages don't support claims that the science of global warming was faked, according to an exhaustive review by The Associated Press.

The 1,073 e-mails examined by the AP show that scientists harbored private doubts, however slight and fleeting, even as they told the world they were certain about climate change. However, the exchanges don't undercut the vast body of evidence showing the world is warming because of man-made greenhouse gas emissions.

The scientists were keenly aware of how their work would be viewed and used, and, just like politicians, went to great pains to shape their message. Sometimes, they sounded more like schoolyard taunts than scientific tenets.

The scientists were so convinced by their own science and so driven by a cause "that unless you're with them, you're against them," said Mark Frankel, director of scientific freedom, responsibility and law at the American Association for the Advancement of Science. He also reviewed the communications.

Frankel saw "no evidence of falsification or fabrication of data, although concerns could be raised about some instances of very 'generous interpretations.'"

Some e-mails expressed doubts about the quality of individual temperature records or why models and data didn't quite match. Part of this is the normal give-and-take of research, but skeptics challenged how reliable certain data was.

The e-mails were stolen from the computer network server of the climate research unit at the University of East Anglia in southeast England, an influential source of climate science, and were posted online last month. The university shut down the server and contacted the police.

The AP studied all the e-mails for context, with five reporters reading and rereading them — about 1 million words in total.

One of the most disturbing elements suggests an effort to avoid sharing scientific data with critics skeptical of global warming. It is not clear if any data was destroyed; two U.S. researchers denied it.

The e-mails show that several mainstream scientists repeatedly suggested keeping their research materials away from opponents who sought it under American and British public records law. It raises a science ethics question because free access to data is important so others can repeat experiments as part of the scientific method. The University of East Anglia is investigating the blocking of information requests.

"I believe none of us should submit to these 'requests,'" declared the university's Keith Briffa. The center's chief, Phil Jones, wrote: "Data is covered by all the agreements we sign with people, so I will be hiding behind them."

When one skeptic kept filing FOI requests, Jones, who didn't return AP requests for comment, told another scientist, Michael Mann: "You can delete this attachment if you want. Keep this quiet also, but this is the person who is putting FOI requests for all e-mails Keith (Briffa) and Tim (Osborn) have written."

Mann, a researcher at Penn State University, told The Associated Press: "I didn't delete any e-mails as Phil asked me to. I don't believe anybody else did."

The e-mails also show how professional attacks turned very personal. When former London financial trader Douglas J. Keenan combed through the data used in a 1990 research paper Jones had co-authored, Keenan claimed to have found evidence of fakery by Jones' co-author. Keenan threatened to have the FBI arrest University at Albany scientist Wei-Chyung Wang for fraud. (A university investigation later cleared him of any wrongdoing.)

"I do now wish I'd never sent them the data after their FOIA request!" Jones wrote in June 2007.

In another case after initially balking on releasing data to a skeptic because it was already public, Lawrence Livermore National Lab scientist Ben Santer wrote that he then opted to release everything the skeptic wanted — and more. Santer said in a telephone interview that he and others are inundated by frivolous requests from skeptics that are designed to "tie-up government-funded scientists."

The e-mails also showed a stunning disdain for global warming skeptics.

One scientist practically celebrates the news of the death of one critic, saying, "In an odd way this is cheering news!" Another bemoans that the only way to deal with skeptics is "continuing to publish quality work in quality journals (or calling in a Mafia hit.)" And a third scientist said the next time he sees a certain skeptic at a scientific meeting, "I'll be tempted to beat the crap out of him. Very tempted."

And they compared contrarians to communist-baiting Sen. Joseph McCarthy and Somali pirates. They also called them out-and-out frauds.

Santer, who received death threats after his work on climate change in 1996, said Thursday: "I'm not surprised that things are said in the heat of the moment between professional colleagues. These things are taken out of context."

When the journal, Climate Research, published a skeptical study, Penn State scientist Mann discussed retribution this way: "Perhaps we should encourage our colleagues in the climate research community to no longer submit to, or cite papers in, this journal."

That skeptical study turned out to be partly funded by the American Petroleum Institute.

The most provocative e-mails are usually about one aspect of climate science: research from a decade ago that studied how warm or cold it was centuries ago through analysis of tree rings, ice cores and glacial melt. And most of those e-mails, which stretch from 1996 to last month, are from about a handful of scientists in dozens of e-mails.

Still, such research has been a key element in measuring climate change over long periods.

As part of the AP review, summaries of the e-mails that raised issues from the potential manipulation of data to intensely personal attacks were sent to seven experts in research ethics, climate science and science policy.

"This is normal science politics, but on the extreme end, though still within bounds," said Dan Sarewitz, a science policy professor at Arizona State University. "We talk about science as this pure ideal and the scientific method as if it is something out of a cookbook, but research is a social and human activity full of all the failings of society and humans, and this reality gets totally magnified by the high political stakes here."

In the past three weeks since the e-mails were posted, longtime opponents of mainstream climate science have repeatedly quoted excerpts of about a dozen e-mails. Republican congressmen and former vice presidential candidate Sarah Palin have called for either independent investigations, a delay in U.S. Environmental Protection Agency regulation of greenhouse gases or outright boycotts of the Copenhagen international climate talks. They cited a "culture of corruption" that the e-mails appeared to show.

That is not what the AP found. There were signs of trying to present the data as convincingly as possible.

One e-mail that skeptics have been citing often since the messages were posted online is from Jones. He says: "I've just completed Mike's (Mann) trick of adding in the real temps to each series for the last 20 years (from 1981 onward) and from 1961 for Keith's to hide the decline."

Jones was referring to tree ring data that indicated temperatures after the 1950s weren't as warm as scientists had determined.

The "trick" that Jones said he was borrowing from Mann was to add the real temperatures, not what the tree rings showed. And the decline he talked of hiding was not in real temperatures, but in the tree ring data which was misleading, Mann explained.

Sometimes the data didn't line up as perfectly as scientists wanted.

David Rind told colleagues about inconsistent figures in the work for a giant international report: "As this continuing exchange has clarified, what's in Chapter 6 is inconsistent with what is in Chapter 2 (and Chapter 9 is caught in the middle!). Worse yet, we've managed to make global warming go away! (Maybe it really is that easy.. ."

But in the end, global warming didn't go away, according to the vast body of research over the years.

None of the e-mails flagged by the AP and sent to three climate scientists viewed as moderates in the field changed their view that global warming is man-made and a threat. Nor did it alter their support of the conclusions of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, which some of the scientists helped write.

"My overall interpretation of the scientific basis for (man-made) global warming is unaltered by the contents of these e-mails," said Gabriel Vecchi, a National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration scientist.

Gerald North, a climate scientist at Texas A&M University, headed a National Academy of Sciences study that looked at — and upheld as valid — Mann's earlier studies that found the 1990s were the hottest years in centuries.

"In my opinion the meaning is much more innocent than might be perceived by others taken out of context. Much of this is overblown," North said.

Mann contends he always has been upfront about uncertainties, pointing to the title of his 1999 study: "Northern Hemisphere Temperatures During the Past Millennium: Inferences, Uncertainties and Limitations."

Several scientists found themselves tailoring their figures or retooling their arguments to answer online arguments — even as they claimed not to care what was being posted to the Internet

"I don't read the blogs that regularly," Jonathan Overpeck of the University of Arizona wrote in 2005. "But I guess the skeptics are making hay of their (sic) being a global warm (sic) event around 1450AD."

One person singled out for criticism in the e-mails is Steve McIntyre, who maintains Climate Audit. The blog focuses on statistical issues with scientists' attempts to recreate the climate in ancient times.

"We find that the authors are overreaching in the conclusions that they're trying to draw from the data that they have," McIntyre said in a telephone interview.

McIntyre, 62, of Toronto, was trained in math and economics and says he is "substantially retired" from the mineral exploration industry, which produces greenhouse gases.

Some e-mails said McIntyre's attempts to get original data from scientists are frivolous and meant more for harassment than doing good science. There are allegations that he would distort and misuse data given to him.

McIntyre disagreed with how he is portrayed. "Everything that I've done in this, I've done in good faith," he said.

He also said he has avoided editorializing on the leaked e-mails. "Anything I say," he said, "is liable to be piling on."

The skeptics started the name-calling said Mann, who called McIntyre a "bozo," a "fraud" and a "moron" in various e-mails.

"We're human," Mann said. "We've been under attack unfairly by these people who have been attempting to dismiss us as frauds as liars."

The AP is mentioned several times in the e-mails, usually in reference to a published story. One scientist says his remarks were reported with "a bit of journalistic license" and "I would have rephrased or re-expressed some of what was written if I had seen it before it was released." The archive also includes a request from an AP reporter, one of the writers of this story, for reaction to a study, a standard step for journalists seeking quotes for their stories.

  

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The Damaja
Member since Aug 02nd 2003
18637 posts
Sun Dec-13-09 03:53 PM

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186. "agreed. but it wasn't just emails that were taken"
In response to Reply # 184


  

          

the hacker also got hold of their computer program source code, which not only contains the transparent procedure of the manipulation of data, but also programmers comments (source code always has comments. look at the source of this webpage and you'll probably find some notes the programmer's made for future reference).

the code and the comments show at least one clear instance of adjusting data to fit a trend that's not there, and also using certain data in an inappropriate manner. see the link i posted a few replies above for more details

this part of climategate has been neglected. almost every article centres around the emails. the reason is obvious: most people/journalists lack the patience and expertise to investigate source code

and besides, the emails are just more entertaining:
http://www.tomnaughton.com/?p=443

If Climate “Researchers” Became Doctors
Posted by Tom Naughton in Media Nonsense, People Are Nuts, Politics
“Step up on the scale, Mr. Naughton.”

“Sure, Doctor. I’m looking forward to seeing this myself.”

“Let’s see … slide this over a bit … hmm, pretty bad. Your weight is up again.”

“Uh … Doctor, you mind getting your foot off the scale?”

“Oh, okay.”

“So … you want to weigh me again now?”

“Sorry, I’ve already recorded the results. You can step down now.”

“But–”

“Just as I predicted. Man-made body enlarging. I told you to stop consuming so much animal fat.”

“There’s nothing wrong with eating–”

“If this keeps up, you’ll weigh 650 pounds by the year 2030. It’s a looming disaster.”

“Doctor, excuse me, but there’s no way I’m gaining weight. Look at me. I had to buy a smaller belt last month.”

“That’s a temporary anomaly. I’m more interested in the long-term trend.”

“I’ve been shrinking for two years now. I’ve also been eating more animal fat. So it can’t be making me fatter. Your theory doesn’t hold up.”

“Do you weigh more than you did 40 years ago?”

“Yes, I was a skinny runt 40 years ago.”

“And did your fat consumption go up during the past 40 years?”

“I was 11 years old 40 years ago! Of course I eat more now.”

“Aha! So you agree there’s a long-term trend in your body enlargement.”

“Those are natural forces at work. I’m pretty sure that’s been happening forever.”

“But the rate of the enlargement has accelerated. Look at your weight chart. See there? All nice and even for two decades, then it shoots up here at the end. It looks like a hockey stick.”

“That chart is bull@#$%!”

“It can’t be. I showed it to a bunch of doctors who are friends of mine and they agreed: it looks like a hockey stick. We even wrote a paper about it.”

“Look, Doctor, I went through a period in my thirties when I was fatter than I am today, and I wasn’t eating animal fat because I was a vegetarian. Now I’m experiencing a thinning trend, even though I eat a lot of fat. So obviously, fat isn’t the problem, and that chart is bull.”

“I see. So you’re a denialist.”

“What?!”

“I suppose you don’t believe the Holocaust happened either?”

“No! I mean, yes, I believe it happened. There’s evidence it happened. But there’s no evidence that I’m gaining weight!”

“Who’s paying you to say this? The dairy industry? The cattle ranchers?”

“Nobody’s paying me! Just use your senses! I’m smaller!”

“This is the worst case of denial I’ve ever seen. I’m afraid we’re going to have to institute a fat-and-trade system. Every time you consume fat, you’ll need to pay me a stiff fine. Or you can buy a fat credit from another tubbo who’s willing to go without butter for a week. It’s the only way to stop you from getting larger.”

“I AM NOT GETTING LARGER!”

“Yes, you are. It says so right here in my computer data.”

“Let me see that.”

“No. I will not have you second-guessing my data. I don’t have to show you anything.”

“Yes, you do, Doctor. And if you don’t, I’ll call my lawyer and have him file the papers.”

“Damn! I was hoping you didn’t know about that law. Now I have to destroy the data.”

“What?!”

“Nothing. I didn’t say anything.”

“Give me that book!”

“Hey! Give that back!”

“Back off, Doctor, or I’ll smack you. Let’s see … Hey, what’s with all the emails and notes?”

“Nothing. Just doctor’s notes.”

“Nothing, my @##. Look at this: ‘James - I figured out how to apply Mike’s trick of mixing belt-ring data with actual weight measurements to hide Mr. Naughton’s mid-thirties fattening period.’ What the hell is that supposed to mean?”

“It doesn’t mean anything! ‘Trick’ is a common term in medical research. Give me that back!”

“And here’s a coding comment from the guy who designed your computer program. What does he mean, he’s having a hard time writing code that produces the results you want?”

“You know … just programmer lingo. That’s how they talk.”

“And this one: ‘James - Perhaps we should encourage our colleagues to boycott medical journals that publish articles by doctors who have seen people lose weight on high-fat diets. By the way, please delete this after reading.’ And you printed it out? What are you, an idiot?”

“Oh, I see. Already reduced to resorting to attacks on my character, huh?”

“And what’s up with this one: ‘James. The fact is that we cannot account for Mr. Naughton’s failure to gain weight in recent years, and it’s a travesty that we can’t.’”

“Well, uh …you see, the theory is still correct, because uh … I mean it’s not like we have anything to hide!”

“Let me get this straight … you wouldn’t give me your data, you threatened to destroy your data so I wouldn’t see it, your programmer was upset because he was having a hard time producing the data you wanted, you applied ‘tricks’ to your data, and in spite of all that, your colleague thinks it’s a travesty that you can’t explain why I’m not actually gaining weight. I’d say you were hiding something, Doctor.”

“But the theory is still correct! I’m sure of it! To hell with your annoying weight loss.”

“No, to hell with you, to hell with your theory, and to hell with your fat-and-trade fines. I’m leaving.”

“Don’t go outside while you’re angry, Mr. Naughton! You’ll get heat exhaustion!”

“It’s snowing, you moron.”

--------------------
Why do you choose to mimic these wack MCs?
Why do you choose to listen to R&B?

"There are obviously many things which we do not understand, and may never be able to." Leela

*puts emceeing in a box*

  

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temps2020
Member since Oct 21st 2003
8421 posts
Mon Dec-14-09 11:27 AM

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188. "so i guess this one scientist represents the entire argument"
In response to Reply # 186


  

          

and all other experts. they're all in on this. smh.

  

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Earl Flynn
Member since Dec 08th 2005
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Mon Dec-14-09 12:07 PM

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189. "American media outlets are spinning this if you haven't notice"
In response to Reply # 184


  

          

IF they even decide to report anything at all.

  

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maternalbliss
Member since Jul 05th 2005
2230 posts
Sun Dec-13-09 10:50 AM

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185. "RE: revisit The Power of Nightmares on youtube"
In response to Reply # 0


          

Imaginary threats are what the powers that be have been selling us for years. It is a shame people can't still see what this global warming nonsense is all about.

  

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temps2020
Member since Oct 21st 2003
8421 posts
Mon Dec-14-09 11:26 AM

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187. "jeez, you believe all this crap posted on youtbue"
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Earl Flynn
Member since Dec 08th 2005
28747 posts
Mon Dec-14-09 12:08 PM

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190. "Yep, folks just fell off the turnip truck"
In response to Reply # 185


  

          

-

  

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Earl Flynn
Member since Dec 08th 2005
28747 posts
Wed Dec-16-09 02:40 PM

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191. "PRINCE CHARLES: EXECUTIVE JET WITH BIG CARBON FOOTPRINT GETS HIM TO CLIM..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

PRINCE CHARLES: EXECUTIVE JET WITH BIG CARBON FOOTPRINT GETS HIM TO CLIMATE CHANGE TALKS

http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/146265/Prince-Charles-Executive-jet-with-big-carbon-footprint-gets-him-to-climate-change-talks


Sound familiar? LOL!

  

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EffectiveEssence
Member since Mar 27th 2006
102 posts
Fri Dec-18-09 06:08 PM

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192. "Everybody knows it's a myth to cover up"
In response to Reply # 0


          

the coming of Planet Nibiru thats gonna smash into the earth in 2012...Thats why weve been having such weird weather patterns people...














































*sadly, there is no sarcasm font*

http://midwestflava.net/forum
http://myspace.com/floorspiders

  

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Yadgyu
Member since May 31st 2006
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Sun Dec-20-09 12:36 AM

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193. "So when is global warming going to start killing people? I want it to ha..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Can't it just happen already so assholes can say "I told you so"?

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GET ON MY LEVEL!

  

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peebo
Member since Oct 18th 2004
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Wed Dec-30-09 03:34 PM

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194. "not sure if this has been posted yet,"
In response to Reply # 0


          

it's a long thread and i've not read it all, but there is a rebuttal of the channel 4 piece here:

http://www.monbiot.com/archives/2007/03/13/channel-4s-problem-with-science/

  

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thegodcam
Member since Oct 22nd 2004
37080 posts
Sat Jan-02-10 10:26 AM

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195. "im honestly confused"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

*******************************************************
i will not let finite disappointment undermine infinite hope
- Cory Booker

forgiveness is giving up all hope of a better past

  

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Earl Flynn
Member since Dec 08th 2005
28747 posts
Wed Jan-20-10 07:56 AM

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196. "THAT'S ALL FOLKS"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          


UN: Himalayan glaciers warning not backed up
http://www.freep.com/article/20100120/NEWS07/100120013/1320/UN-Glaciers-warning-not-backed-up

GENEVA -- A U.N. warning that Himalayan glaciers were melting faster than any other place in the world and may be gone by 2035 was not backed up by science, U.N. climate experts said Wednesday - an admission that could energize climate change critics.

In a 2007 report, the U.N. Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change said the Himalayan glaciers are very likely to disappear within three decades if the present melting rate continues. But a statement from the panel now says there is not enough scientific evidence to back up those claim.

The warning in the report "refers to poorly substantiated estimates of rate of recession and date for the disappearance of Himalayan glaciers," the IPCC said. "In drafting the paragraph in question, the clear and well-established standards of evidence, required by the IPCC procedures, were not applied properly.".

The Himalayan glacier claim, made in the group's voluminous, Nobel-winning report, was little noticed until The Sunday Times said the projection seemed to be based on a news report.

The leaders of the U.N. panel are investigating how the forecast got into the report, Chris Field, director of the ecology department at the Washington-based Carneige Institution for Science, told The Associated Press.

The U.N. panel did not give a new estimate of when Himalayan glaciers might melt away, but said "widespread mass losses from glaciers and reductions in snow cover over recent decades are projected to accelerate throughout the 21st century."

This will reduce the availability of water and change the seasonal water flows in major mountain rangers, including the Himalayas, it said.

India's Environment Minister Jairam Ramesh on Tuesday repeated his previous criticism of the panel's initial assessment of the Himalayan glaciers.

"The health of the glaciers is a cause of grave concern, but the IPCC's alarmist position that they would melt by 2035 was not based on an iota of scientific evidence," Ramesh was quoted as saying by The Times of India.

The IPCC's Fourth Assessment Report of 2007 said the Himalayan glaciers were receding faster than any other place in the world. "The likelihood of them disappearing by the year 2035 and perhaps sooner is very high if the Earth keeps warming at the current rate," it said.

But, in a confusing note, the report added the glacier's total area "will likely shrink from the present 500,000 to 100,000 square kilometers (193,000 to 36,000 sq. miles) by the year 2035."

The U.N. climate change panel said "the chair, vice-chairs, and co-chairs of the IPCC regret the poor application of well-established IPCC procedures in this instance."

Associated Press writer Muneeza Naqvi from New Delhi contributed to the report.

  

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foxnesn
Charter member
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Sun Feb-14-10 06:05 PM

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197. "Climategate U-turn as scientist at centre of row admits: There has been ..."
In response to Reply # 0
Sun Feb-14-10 06:05 PM by foxnesn

  

          

Climategate U-turn as scientist at centre of row admits: There has been no global warming since 1995


every week we learn something new! what amazes me is that a lot of folks on this board are very weary of government yet fell right into the whole global warming scam. face it! the idea of man-made global warming is designed to placate the masses!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1250872/Climategate-U-turn-Astonishment-scientist-centre-global-warming-email-row-admits-data-organised.html

  

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cgonz00cc
Member since Aug 01st 2002
16558 posts
Mon Feb-15-10 09:15 AM

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198. "well if one guy says it....it must be true!"
In response to Reply # 197


          

  

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Earl Flynn
Member since Dec 08th 2005
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Mon Feb-15-10 10:42 AM

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199. "Depends on who the one guy is"
In response to Reply # 198


  

          

-

Each progressive spirit is opposed by a thousand mediocre minds appointed to guard the past. ~
Maurice Maeterlinck

  

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cgonz00cc
Member since Aug 01st 2002
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Mon Feb-15-10 10:58 AM

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200. "not really"
In response to Reply # 199


          

1 famous scientist vs 10 no-names, each with verifiable results?

no-names win every time

now if the one guy is summarizing citing previously published stuff, thats different. but to just make a statement needs SOME kind of backup

  

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Earl Flynn
Member since Dec 08th 2005
28747 posts
Mon Feb-15-10 01:09 PM

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201. "didn't really mean this particular issue"
In response to Reply # 200


  

          

Barack Obama for example....

Each progressive spirit is opposed by a thousand mediocre minds appointed to guard the past. ~
Maurice Maeterlinck

  

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foxnesn
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Mon Feb-15-10 06:56 PM

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202. "RE: well if one guy says it....it must be true!"
In response to Reply # 198


  

          

this isn't "one" guy. this is "THE" guy who has been pushing the man made global warming agenda for years and years and years. all other research on this topic sites HIS work. he is the author of the famous hockey stick graph. al gore sites this guy in this movie. all of those other "scientists" you say have data do not have any empirical data, they have been basing their theories off of this guys.

  

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Earl Flynn
Member since Dec 08th 2005
28747 posts
Wed Feb-24-10 10:22 AM

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203. "Al Gore's 9 LIES"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnalysis/Article.aspx?id=522005&Ntt=al+gores+nine+lies

Each progressive spirit is opposed by a thousand mediocre minds appointed to guard the past. ~
Maurice Maeterlinck

  

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