25. "careful...your agendas are colliding" In response to Reply # 8
>2006 NBA Finals Wade is the closest we've ever seen >to Jordan. Kobe was legitimately never, ever was that >good at basketball. >
Don't you have Bron as the GOAT or top 2-3 or something? So "the best basketball player we have ever seen" needed the second best 2guard ever, another all-star, and one of the greatest shooters ever.... to win...2 chips?
Damn...how much more help did he need? And how much more of a failure does that stance make 2011?
Hell, in context of this very thread...so Dirk lifted his squad above the "best basketball player we have ever seen" and the second greatest 2guard ever...? Damn.
Based on your logic, we should take that one series and elevate Dirk a lot more too.
And even if you want to gloss over the officiating in '06- which is being objectively dishonest- one series doesn't put him over Kobe.
I agree with posts below that some guys have been forgotten/glossed over in favor of Wade the last few years....that would be a better/more interesting debate.
>its a rather weak & futile attempt at equating Jorn's >greatness to Kobe's > >basically, its Jorn then everyone else. In fact, the distance >between Wade & Kobe is much, MUCH closer than Jorn & Kobe.. > >And to answer your question: Yes, Dirk is top 5 all time PF.. >its 1) Timmy 2) Malone 3A) Dirk 3B) KG 4) Barkley
Dirk in no way shape or form is better at basketball than KG and Barkley, shit C-Webb...sure Dirk has more "accolades" but as a player? its not really close
41% career shooting vs. Pierce including an NBA record 30 missed shots in'02 when they were both at their athletic PEAKS & Shaq was out to even out the playing field.
You're talking about six games. No one cares. In the sum totality of his career, he's not underrated, and he's not a top three or top five shooting guard.
And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.
71. "RE: here's someone you can relate with" In response to Reply # 67
>You're talking about six games. No one cares. In the sum >totality of his career, he's not underrated, and he's not a >top three or top five shooting guard.
not top 5? I'll give you MJ, Kobe & Drexler, who else?
74. "RE: what are we basing it on?" In response to Reply # 72
>pure talent? accolades? rings?? etc.. > >Only reason ppl are so quick to justify Wade as top 3 is the >rings, not him necessarily being an otherworldly, once in a >lifetime type talent.
2nd to only MJ in blocked shots for guards
>And we all know the last two rings were more so Bron's doing.
wow really?
>honestly, I'll take Jerry West, AI & T-Mac as simply better >basketball players. Oh, Harden will surpass him in due time >too
I'll give you West if you want to go back that far, he played 1 and 2, T-Mac was a 2-3, who knows what Iverson was > >>not top 5? I'll give you MJ, Kobe & Drexler, who else? >>
Wade's resume is pretty solid, probably should've won MVP in 09
He massacred the Pistons who folks regard as being the best defensive team of that mid 2000s era. The Heat would have been in back-to-back Finals if Wade didn't get injured in '05 when the Heat were up 3-2 in the ECF (Shaq couldn't close the show)
28. "Wade is not even top 5 all-time at his position. Dirk arguably is." In response to Reply # 1 Thu Apr-04-19 03:41 PM by ConcreteCharlie
Jordan, Hondo, West, Hondo are all clearly better than Wade and then you get a formidable list of arguable guys like Walt Frazier, Allen Iverson, Ray Allen, Clyde Drexler and so on. Barkley, Malone, Hayes, McHale, I guess KG, Pettit and Schayes, these are the top PFs and I would absolutely put Dirk neck and neck with some of those guys. Wade has had a great career but Dirk has lasted longer, been more durable and excelled more as an individual player during his career.
And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.
it is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts. - sherlock holmes
35. "yeah actually i meant monroe not frazier. frazier better, but ,more a pg" In response to Reply # 34 Thu Apr-04-19 05:54 PM by ConcreteCharlie
>career averages damn near identical to wade's >(http://tinyurl.com/y55ymoxo), and with no 3 pt line. > >gervin, miller and monroe deserve a mention too.
maravich i had in the combo guard section below. that's a rough comparison anyway. gervin i think of as kind of a 2-3 combo but yeah i would take him over wade.
And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.
dula dibiasi Member since Apr 05th 2004 21925 posts
Thu Apr-04-19 06:15 PM
36. "shit, wade's a combo guard too." In response to Reply # 35
miami’s lead playmaker for large swaths of his career.
>maravich i had in the combo guard section below. that's a >rough comparison anyway. gervin i think of as kind of a 2-3 >combo but yeah i would take him over wade.
see i'd say the same thing about hondo, i always think of him more as a 3. i feel like sam jones was moreso the 2 on that team for the first half of havlicek's career, then don chaney and charlie scott on the back end. definitely some blurred lines there tho. same as the duncan PF/C argument, i'm fine with hondo in the SG convo (and yes, i'd agree he's clearly >>> wade)
___
it is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts. - sherlock holmes
68. "LMAO a better playmaker than Maravich or Walt Frazier?" In response to Reply # 53
His whopping 4 career APG and predictable AF patterns say otherwise. He was a very strong one-on-one player and a willing passer when the opportunity presented himself. He's not even close to any of the guys I mentioned as a playmaker. You're embarrassing yourself here, but then again you have no shame.
And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.
58. "Yeah, let's COMPLETELY ignore the other side of the court called DEFENSE" In response to Reply # 34
Wade is the second best help defender at his position after a guy named Jorn & this is the reason why he has an argument for being better than Kirby at his PEAK.
Among the rotation players that played meaningful minutes, Wade led the Heat in BOTH offensive & defensive rating in the '06 Finals (same in the '11 Finals). He averages 1.5 steals & 1 blk for his entire postseason career with a bunch of deflections.
LeBron with just Bosh wouldn't have won a chip in Miami & RuPaul didn't win squat until he moved to South Beach either.
As far as the Kirby argument, Wade didn't even have Lamar Odom let alone Pau during '08-'10, he actually took Lamar/Butler to the second round after out-dueling Baron Davis as a rookie. He also took Kirby's trash & beat the Pistons, yeah....the same team that essentially swept the Lakers w/ Kirby shooting bricks. (Heat would have beaten the Pistons in '05 too if Wade didn't get injured, they had no answer for him)
69. "That's why I could see an argument over certain guys but not that many" In response to Reply # 58
Frazier and West were also excellent defenders; Hondo could play D. There are no outright one-way players there, though we haven't even touched Harden or explored Iverson much who, while defensively worse, brought more on offense. We've mostly been talking about good two-way players here.
And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.
76. "Wade at his PEAK was an efficient AI who played a superior D" In response to Reply # 69
>Frazier and West were also excellent defenders; Hondo could >play D. There are no outright one-way players there, though we >haven't even touched Harden or explored Iverson much who, >while defensively worse, brought more on offense. We've mostly >been talking about good two-way players here.
dula dibiasi Member since Apr 05th 2004 21925 posts
Thu Apr-04-19 11:06 AM
16. "lulz. man, this shit already a mess. #abesimpson180" In response to Reply # 0
___
it is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts. - sherlock holmes
27. "RE: Dirk better. Best him and his super team." In response to Reply # 18
>And that’s after Wade got him during the Great Free Throw >Parade of the ‘06 Finals. > >I remember Wade’s teams being irrelevant for a good chunk of >his 20s until Bron & Bosh saves him. > >Honest question is Wade better than Jerry West, Clyde, Ray >Allen or Iverson?
West - I don’t know. I lean towards no. Clyde - Wade by a little IMO Allen - Wade’s quite a bit better. Iverson - AI was the better player.
32. "Definitely not West. I think he's this generation's Drexler" In response to Reply # 18
I'd take Iverson over him by a nose but I don't want to get into that argument. I'd also take Allen but I think very highly of Allen and for whatever reason some don't (mostly playing in obscurity during his prime, I guess). West vs Kobe is the debate, not West vs Wade. Jerry was a baaaaaaaad man.
And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.
39. "Numbers don't lie, people do: DEM FACTS!!!" In response to Reply # 0 Sat Apr-06-19 01:27 PM by FILF
I love how Dirt sympathizers try to hide his miserable '06 Finals under the rug by claiming Wade had a "parade" to the FT line:
-The guy that shoots fade-away & jump-shots had attempted more free throws than anyone during the '06 postseasons leading up to the Finals but I don't hear y'all complaining about it (finished the postseason with more makes than anyone)
-Dirt also attempted more free throws than anyone in the '11 postseason run but again don't hear y'all complaining about it
So, BOTH of Dirt's postseason runs where aided by the whistle.....according to his sympathizers logic.
The skeleton in the closet:
-Dirt shot 39% in the '06 Finals while mostly being guarded 1-on-1 by Haslem & missed FT at the end of Gm 3 that would have forced OT blowing a chance to go up 3-0
-Dirt's sidekick averaged 22 (TS: 55%) while "Superman" was dropping 13 (TS: 53%)
-Dirt shot 41% from the field in the '11 Finals but was bailed up with "parades" to the FT line (that series was won by the Mavs defense, to which end Dirt contributed nothing unlike Wade)
-Dirt's sidekick averaged 18 (TS: 60%) while "Kang" was dropping 17 (TS: 54%).......including a marvelous 8 points in a winnable Gm 4 where Wade dropped 32 (13/20) while Dirt was 6/19
Basically you picked small parts of a broader argument to refute. Also saying "Dirt" at the start of every sentence doesn't really help solidify your opinion as reasonable and unbiased.
And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.
42. "Claiming "free throws" as the premise of the debate isn't either" In response to Reply # 41 Sat Apr-06-19 09:25 PM by FILF
>Basically you picked small parts of a broader argument to >refute. Also saying "Dirt" at the start of every sentence >doesn't really help solidify your opinion as reasonable and >unbiased.
LMAO at claiming the STATS are biased when they are CUMULATIVE stats from the series they faced EACH OTHER & cumulative stats from postseason runs. The funny thing is folks using a single postseason run to crown Dirt when I just proved to y'all he was FAR from dominant in the Finals but y'all rather be prisoners of the moment & turn a blind eye.
Dirt has had a better career by default just based on availability but Wade at his peak was a wrecking ball at BOTH ends of the court. If LeBrat wasn't milk carton status in the '11 Finals, we wouldn't be having this argument.
it is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts. - sherlock holmes
54. "Dirk is one of the biggest frauds in NBA history, the way people try..." In response to Reply # 0
to use that fluke title in 2011 to validate his career is about as comical as people that use those 2 bogus MVP's to validate Nash.
Like I said before Dirk in no way shape or form seeing Malone, Barkley, Duncan, KG, shit Chris Webber and Rasheed too for that matter. And that's just sticking to the modern era.
Dirk was ass in the 2011 Finals barely shooting 40% and his team had to hide him on defense.
56. "Forget the 41%, LeBron didn’t even show up " In response to Reply # 54
>to use that fluke title in 2011 to validate his career is >about as comical as people that use those 2 bogus MVP's to >validate Nash. > >Like I said before Dirk in no way shape or form seeing Malone, >Barkley, Duncan, KG, shit Chris Webber and Rasheed too for >that matter. And that's just sticking to the modern era. > >Dirk was ass in the 2011 Finals barely shooting 40% and his >team had to hide him on defense.
Curry gets flack for the 2015 finals when he actually performed much better that Mr.41
61. "this applies more so to Wade imo" In response to Reply # 60
that '06 title run inflated is legacy like no other. Yes, he was Finals MVP but ppl conveniently forget to mention the presence & contribution of Shaq or even Mourning in that series.
And lest we forget, the refs inarguably rigging the series for the Heat. Without them, the Mavs take the series in five!
Again I ask, exactly what has Wade accomplished without a Bron or Shaq??
62. "He won a title and finals mvp in his 3rd season, he was always seen..." In response to Reply # 61
as a winner and the 2 titles with Bron cemented that legacy. If Lebron hadn’t nutted up against Dallas Wade would’ve been Finals MVP that first year.
As far as who he played everybody had somebody.
Even Dirk didn’t have an All-Star in his prime but he had few former all-stars including a HOFer and team of defensive grinders built around him to hide his defensive shortcomings.
63. "RE: He won a title and finals mvp in his 3rd season, he was always seen...." In response to Reply # 62
. > >As far as who he played everybody had somebody.
Sure. Point being tho, Wade has never been the best player on each of his title teams. And ppl forget Shaq was still SHAQ!, and widely considered the better player of the two at least 3 out of the 4 yrs he was a Heat. hell, he was runnerup for MVP just a year before! Wade had that one incredible 06 playoff run, to the point of overshadowing Shaq's greatness. But that run was apparently a fluke, Wade has never duplicated anything remotely close to that since.
>Even Dirk didn’t have an All-Star in his prime but he had >few former all-stars including a HOFer and team of defensive >grinders built around him to hide his defensive shortcomings.
Lol so youre proving my point then. Dirk better! CRY!
65. "RE: He won a title and finals mvp in his 3rd season, he was always seen...." In response to Reply # 63
>Sure. Point being tho, Wade has never been the best player on >each of his title teams. And ppl forget Shaq was still SHAQ!, >and widely considered the better player of the two at least 3 >out of the 4 yrs he was a Heat. hell, he was runnerup for MVP >just a year before!
MVP are about narratives bruh, Steve Nash was NEVER the best player in the league despite winning two MVP.
Besides, Shaq wasn't anywhere near as dominate as he was in the postseason after he finished runner-up & L-M-A-O at "3-out-4 years" when dude was done after '06 then got traded midway through his 4th. Dude got outplayed in spurts by Alonzo freakin' Mourning in the '06 Finals too.
64. "Yeah, the Mavs take the series in 5 with Dirt shooting 39%" In response to Reply # 61 Sun Apr-14-19 12:10 PM by FILF
>that '06 title run inflated is legacy like no other. Yes, he >was Finals MVP but ppl conveniently forget to mention the >presence & contribution of Shaq or even Mourning in that >series.
L-M-A-O
Are you going to argue Mourning playing 11 minutes a game & Shaq averaging 13/10/2 were anywhere as impactful as Wade? LMAOOOOooooooo!!!!
By this logic, '15 LeBron should have won the Finals b/c he had 3 guys averaging double figures & playing tough defense. When in actuality Wade had a better series with two guys scoring double figures.
Folks forget Wade put the clamps on Devin Harris who had been getting to the rim at will throughout the playoffs which made it difficult for Dirt to get clean looks & made Haslem's job easier (Dirt shot an abdominal 25% from 3). Also, ask James Harden circa '12 Finals about Wade's defense.
Devin Harris was the Mavs' X-factor throughout the postseason but got destroyed by Wade & that was the end of their chapter.
BTW, Dirt had a usage rate 12% lower than Wade's & took 35 less shots but still attempted 55 FT despite not being anywhere near the slasher Wade was in '06.
Wade was undeniable in the '05 & '06 postseason where he wrecked the same Pistons who put the clamps on Italian GOAT. My bad, those were also b/c of "free throws"....... & he also had the starting center of the '04 Lakers on his squad.
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