dula dibiasi Member since Apr 05th 2004 21925 posts
Fri Apr-17-15 01:57 PM
2. "is elton brand?" In response to Reply # 0 Fri Apr-17-15 02:01 PM by dula dibiasi
that's probably his closest comparable peer. both in the 16k / 9k neighborhood, both made 2 ASGs and 1 all-league (brand a 2nd, bo a 3rd)
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it is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts. - sherlock holmes
it is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts. - sherlock holmes
10. "Brand's career was basically ruined by injury though" In response to Reply # 2
He played in a crowded west and that diminished his ASG appearances. Had he gone to Philly and kept on keeping on, he'd have at least put himself in the convo. That Achilles did his chances in.
And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.
all i was saying is that in terms of hall criteria, i.e. career numbs and patches, bo is closer to an FOHer like elton than he is to the tim / dirk / KG echelon.
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it is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts. - sherlock holmes
18. "Elton Brand was never even remotely on a HOF trek, fam, c'mon" In response to Reply # 10
He had like 8 20/10 healthy seasons on lottery teams aside for the one 24/10 year with Cassell before the Achilles when they won a round.
You couldn't even really run plays through Elton Brand even at his peak, he was shorter than that era's PF's, didn't have a reliable post move arsenal, wasn't aggressive offensively, wasn't a leader, etc.
He was basically a longer-armed, better-defending/shot-blocking/boarding Shareef Abdur-Rahim.
24. "I didn't call him a stat-padder, so that's your own projection" In response to Reply # 22
Read what I wrote and tell me what's factually incorrect.
Wasn't even talking about his game post-Achilles let alone his time in Philly.
Miss me with "carried" tho, I was in LA the year they made the playoffs with Cassell, before Young God went down again, when Kamen had a career year, Magette hadn't yet fully devolved into self-parody, Mobley still had something left, etc.
It was Brand's best year but let's not act like that team wasn't good that year or that Sam wasn't the catalyst for teaching them how to win before Dumbleavy fucked it up.
32. "nah I mentioned that he had Shareef type of offensive numbers " In response to Reply # 25
(and that most of them put up those numbers quietly on bad teams) but was a better rebounding, shot blocking and overall defending presence.
And Cassell's impact on that team as the Day One leader, PG, late-game shot-taker, veteran voice who knew how to win was pretty obvious, like it was on the TWolves in KG's MVP season before he got hurt and they fell apart vs the Lakers in the WCF as a result.
That team had a bunch of talent, a doofy coach, a culture of losing and Cassell's presence was vital to them shaking that for a few months even though Brand was their best player.
37. "Sheed is a tough player to evaluate" In response to Reply # 36
Man defense was a strength of his and that doesn't show up in stats.
He was a HOF talent early in his career but too flighty. Like he could have either become a truly dominant scorer or just faded back and he seemed content to extend his range and diminish his aggressiveness. Yet as he got older he figured out more ways to contribute and obviously had more team success.
I do not think he is a HOF'er, obviously, but he was better than his pretty good number indicate.
Just a tough guy to compare, but I'd say despite lesser numbers, yes, he was every bit Brand's peer.
And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.
-The Knicks’ coaching search still includes a lone frontrunner, Kurt Rambis, whose qualifications for the position include a strong relationship with Jackson and a willingness to take the job.
9. "No, but if he played in the East more he woulda padded his resume" In response to Reply # 0 Fri Apr-17-15 02:48 PM by ConcreteCharlie
Two ASGs is not enough but put him in the East and the number skyrockets. He also knuckleheaded away some potentially good years, it took him a while to "get it."
If you gave me a choice between ZBo at his best or some other guys that probably will make the hall, I would take ZBo. Much tougher and a higher motor than CWebb (another guy who took a while get understand the team game). More of a dynamic offensive player than Bosh. I like ZBo's game a lot, I just think his resume falls well short.
And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.
dula dibiasi Member since Apr 05th 2004 21925 posts
Fri Apr-17-15 02:55 PM
11. "...bo over webb, fam?" In response to Reply # 9
side-eyeing like shit.
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it is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts. - sherlock holmes
dula dibiasi Member since Apr 05th 2004 21925 posts
Fri Apr-17-15 03:35 PM
16. "i don't know. i'm not a huge z-bo fan." In response to Reply # 13
rich man's big dog carr imo. venture capitalist's chris gatling.
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it is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts. - sherlock holmes
43. "weird thing about those Kings teams" In response to Reply # 28
Webber was by far the best player on those teams
by far
yet when it came down to it in crunch time, the ball would go to Vlade. After the timeout stuff, Webber wanted nothing to do with big time situations. That one moment mentally deflated him forever
44. "Mike Bibby was their catalyst in 02. " In response to Reply # 43 Sat Apr-18-15 12:59 PM by ConcreteCharlie
A lotta guys didn't come through in the end though. Christie bricking in overtime. Peja didn't shoot well in that one. But you're right, Webber often didn't even want the ball. You could count the number of good or even adequate playoff series he had on one hand.
And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.
49. "Bibby in '02.. earlier ('98-'99) it was Vlade " In response to Reply # 44
I remember being shocked as hell that they went to Vlade in the post in crunch time against Utah.
Webber is a higher caliber player than both those guys. The only one really in consideration for the HOF. And he just didn't want it in those situations
60. "Yeah they ran the O through Vlade but not so much as a scoring option" In response to Reply # 49
Part of that was Carril's offense though, and they did break with that to run some high pick n roll with Webber and Bibby (les so when they had Williams running the point). But yeah, I mean no one would confuse their desire to get Webber the ball with, for example, Houston's desire to get Hakeem the ball late in games or Minnesota's to get it to KG or Dallas going to Dirk. Not even close. And this was for a guy who was pretty wet from mid-range and always had his passing skills talked up, it wasnt like he needed deep entry passes.
And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.
17. "who in the hall has the least all star appearances?" In response to Reply # 0
Out of players mostly recognized for their nba success?
-The Knicks’ coaching search still includes a lone frontrunner, Kurt Rambis, whose qualifications for the position include a strong relationship with Jackson and a willingness to take the job.
20. "that's good. he's got 2." In response to Reply # 19
by comparison, he's also got 5 rings and 7 straight rebounding titles.
-The Knicks’ coaching search still includes a lone frontrunner, Kurt Rambis, whose qualifications for the position include a strong relationship with Jackson and a willingness to take the job.
-The Knicks’ coaching search still includes a lone frontrunner, Kurt Rambis, whose qualifications for the position include a strong relationship with Jackson and a willingness to take the job.
45. "Z Bo...." In response to Reply # 0 Sat Apr-18-15 02:23 PM by murph71
had a better career than anyone could ever hope...Started off as a "cancer" type player...Salvaged his career at Memphis. Turned himself into an all-star....Much respect for dude...But he didn't have a strong enough college career or international showing to get in the Hall...
As for comparing dude to Webber?....nah...not even....Sometimes I don't think people understand how good Webber was really was. Injuries hurt that dude's career. A Lot...And yet he's still going to the Hall...
GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....
46. "I know exactly how *talented* he was, but I think how effective is overb..." In response to Reply # 45 Sat Apr-18-15 02:50 PM by ConcreteCharlie
Let's put it this way, if you were starting a team with his peers like Duncan, Dirk, KG, he'd get picked after those guys. I am not saying he was Antoine Walker or anything, he was a very good player and he his the deficiencies he had pretty well. But he wasn't a complete player and he wasn't a very strong competitor.
He will likely get into the HOF but he's not a first-ballot guy.
And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.
47. "RE: I know exactly how *talented* he was, but I think how effective is o..." In response to Reply # 46 Sat Apr-18-15 03:02 PM by murph71
>Let's put it this way, if you were starting a team with his >peers like Duncan, Dirk, KG, he'd get picked after those guys. >I am not saying he was Antoine Walker or anything, he was a >very good player and he his the deficiencies he had pretty >well. But he wasn't a complete player and he wasn't a very >strong competitor. > >He will likely get into the HOF but he's not a first-ballot >guy.
Sports is cruel....The Kings were a lucky bounce (and a horribly officiated game 6) away from getting to the Finals. Had that happen and they win it all you would be viewing Webber totally differently...
Webber's only issue was that his body let him down. When he was healthy he proved to be one of the best big men in the league...But when you are hit with the injury bug and playing in the same era when the Lakers were on their Shaq/Kobe dynasty, it is what it is...
GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....
48. "Webber has to take some ownership of those failures" In response to Reply # 47
Sactown was basically Basketball Purgatory but he got himself sent there by how he handled his first two NBA stops.
I can't think of a more talented big who had to get traded twice within his first four years in the league.
To his credit he recovered nicely with the Kings before the knee but there even during their best runs, there was a reason why Bibby was the go-to guy at crunch time in 2002.
By 2004 CWebb was literally running away from the ball in the Western Conference Semifinals crunchtime and all the sudden it was over.
I think the timeout messed him up mentally for tight in-game moments during his pro career.
51. "There's no question he was touched." In response to Reply # 48
You watched him late in games and he shriveled up. There was no reason for him to be such a horrible free throw shooter early in his career and have those numbers get worse in big games. It was sad. But it was real.
And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.
50. "RE: I know exactly how *talented* he was, but I think how effective is o..." In response to Reply # 47
> >Sports is cruel....The Kings were a lucky bounce (and a >horribly officiated game 6) away from getting to the Finals. >Had that happen and they win it all you would be viewing >Webber totally differently...
There were seven games in the series. Even if you subscribe to the theory that they were screwed in Game 6 for ratings, they still had all 53 minutes of Game 7. If they had guys who could have imposed their will on the game, the series wouldn't have gone 7. They had superior depth, a more fluid offense and honestly a better overall team, but they didn't have a Shaq or a Kobe. Webber was part of that. He didn't play a bad series but he didn't play a *great* series. If your stars aren't great in the playoffs, you're dead. And that was one of his better series. His playoff series in Sac was a continuation of his wack performance with two other franchises, shot under 40% from the field, 40% from the stripe (he couldn't shoot fouls in them offs for years).
He got better later but he never got great, not even close, and then yes his knee started limiting him. It was piling on for a while and by the time he got to Philadelphia he was in rapid, obvious decline.
>Webber's only issue was that his body let him down. When he >was healthy he proved to be one of the best big men in the >league...But when you are hit with the injury bug and playing >in the same era when the Lakers were on their Shaq/Kobe >dynasty, it is what it is...
Nah man, that's totally oversimplifying. The best piece I read that was, in my view, spot on was this one when CWebb retired:
He's lacking when it comes to ASG appearances and Championships.
But he's a victim of playing with some of the greatest power forwards in NBA history (Garnett, Duncan, Dirk) and some other elite ones (Pau, Webber, Lamarcus, Love, Blake). All in his conference.
His lack of team success is not on him. He's played best when his team has needed him most, and his teams have never lost to a team they were supposed to beat. The West has been the dominant conference for his entire career.
He's every bit as good as Webber. Webber has slightly higher averages, but Zach will be good for longer.
If you watch games you can see that Zach imposes his will with his physical play in a way that Webber never did.
That said, Webber only has a 15% chance of making it according to BR.
54. "eggzacklee (c) magic, spot on" In response to Reply # 52
you look at cwebb's closest statistical comparisons, not HOF'ers either. does he have some kind of intangible push? leader of a team that never existed in college?
And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.
55. "pre-timeout Webber definitely imposed his will on games" In response to Reply # 52 Sun Apr-19-15 05:27 PM by Amritsar
> >He's every bit as good as Webber. Webber has slightly higher >averages, but Zach will be good for longer. > >If you watch games you can see that Zach imposes his will with >his physical play in a way that Webber never did.
Maybe not quite as physical as Z Bo. But pre-timeout Webber was dominating games with his post up play, passing ability, athleticism, and great hands.
I'd like to think that if the timeout did not happen, we'd be looking at a guy who took over NBA games the way he did in college.
that J.A. Adande piece ConcreteCharlie posted in here summed it up pretty well. It wasn't even just the timeout itself. He endured years of heckling about it in NBA arenas around the country. It killed his confidence.
Webber was already a sensitive person by nature. I remember his AAU coach talking about how he needed to "toughen" him up a bit in Mitch Albom's Fab Five book. His whole career is actually a pretty interesting study into psychology and confidence.
61. "Yes, only if CWebb gets in." In response to Reply # 0
Z-bo is no higher than a fifth ballot hall of famer at best, if selected at all. His major problem is the conferences he played in. We have to forgive Zach for the start of his career due to where he was at. He came onto the OG Jailblazers. However, he played well but wound up getting traded to the Knicks.
My point is this: if Webber gets in and Z-Bo's decline is better than Webber's then Z-Bo deserves a look.
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