"Poll question: Help me sort out the prevailing CARMELO agenda for 2014-2015"
I found a pack of dates at the grocery joint. They feel like they are individually wrapped...but I don't think they are. I didn't just eat a shit ton of wax paper or plastic, did I? Package said 'raw Dates'. I think that's just the skin. Pardon me, I don't be eating dates like that.
To the matter:
I just want to sort this out, figure out the situation at hand.
Help me, help you, help me.
"We're in this together son, your beef is mine."
Poll result (27 votes)
He can ball on a bad team and we'll be nice to him, like we did Kevin Love
1. "before i vote...let's set the parameters for "overachieve"" In response to Reply # 0
we mean winning 35 or more games? because some say they will and some say they won't. which media sources we using and which OKP posts/posters we using to base this on?
we mean playoffs? because some say they will and some say they won't. which media sources we using and which OKP posts/posters we using to base this on?
we mean winning a playoff round? because some say they will and some say they won't. which media sources we using and which OKP posts/posters we using to base this on?
2. "good point...he did all those things 2 years ago with a bad roster" In response to Reply # 1
and still 'underachieved'. I guess its conf finals or bust
-The Knicks’ coaching search still includes a lone frontrunner, Kurt Rambis, whose qualifications for the position include a strong relationship with Jackson and a willingness to take the job.
4. "right, no one would have picked the knicks to take the heat to 7 " In response to Reply # 3
in that series...clearly indiana was a better team than ny.
-The Knicks’ coaching search still includes a lone frontrunner, Kurt Rambis, whose qualifications for the position include a strong relationship with Jackson and a willingness to take the job.
9. "nah indy was better from jump. Only way the knicks win that series is" In response to Reply # 7
if they overachieved like they did in the reg season.
my answer to your question is if they win a playoff series, bc i got them winning 40 and snagging an 8th seed.
-The Knicks’ coaching search still includes a lone frontrunner, Kurt Rambis, whose qualifications for the position include a strong relationship with Jackson and a willingness to take the job.
8. "wait, what? who was picking the knicks to go to the ecf before the seaso..." In response to Reply # 6
started???
-The Knicks’ coaching search still includes a lone frontrunner, Kurt Rambis, whose qualifications for the position include a strong relationship with Jackson and a willingness to take the job.
15. "Lol that's because melo had the knicks overachieving all year." In response to Reply # 13
Its not like the knicks landed a big name player and all of a sudden they were expected to go ecf. Melo and a terribly flawed roster were playing so well that people got geeked and started predicting ECF. Then they got beat by a clearly better team.
They still overachieved for the season though.
-The Knicks’ coaching search still includes a lone frontrunner, Kurt Rambis, whose qualifications for the position include a strong relationship with Jackson and a willingness to take the job.
33. "lmao the revisionism is strong in this one" In response to Reply # 15
DPOY+6th Man of the year+coach you personally were touting equals a suck ass team now? Just for OE, I will remind you both what AI did when he had the DPOY and 6th Man of the Year. Was he on some "Oh, Milwaukee/Toronto/Indiana" were just better? No.
imo the knicks should make the playoffs this year. i don't have any expectation beyond that but honestly the conference and the division are pretty wide open. if you are a big ass star, there is no excuse to miss in the east and there hasn't been for years.
And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.
71. "he was also very good in the nuggs' run to the WCF. i mean ..." In response to Reply # 45
is he a star player? no, but he's had a decent career and the highlights of it happened to come in melo's two most successful seasons. does any player win without other good players? i dont get all you bitching about double standards here.
And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.
41. "you didnt disprove one thing that i said." In response to Reply # 33
In fact, i get the impression you agree.
>Its not like the knicks landed a big name player and all of a sudden they were expected to go ecf. Melo and a terribly flawed roster were playing so well that people got geeked and started predicting ECF. Then they got beat by a clearly better team.
They still overachieved for the season though.
Is there something you disagree with in there?
-The Knicks’ coaching search still includes a lone frontrunner, Kurt Rambis, whose qualifications for the position include a strong relationship with Jackson and a willingness to take the job.
17. "^^^bwahahaha the revisionist history is awesome in this post" In response to Reply # 13 Thu Oct-23-14 11:26 AM by vee-lover
"Melo carried a bum Knicks team" Nevermind how that *team* shot great (in the regular season) from the 3...Nevermind JR had his best season as a pro that season....nevermind the fact JKidd was the REAL leader of that team and kept that locker room together as well as the coach on the floor who was the reason why they were getting good spacing on the floor (early on before their best player resorted back to isolation ball)...nervermind the fact that Woody had them playing D (early on before they resorted back to being who they were)
Oh and Nevermind that the east was decimated that season due to key players being out w/injuries - there was literally *3* good teams in the entire conference
So this "they overachieved" narrative is vastly overstated and misleading
But it's a good way to spin their season and downplay how Melo 'underachieved' during the post season...
18. "all you said was that the knicks overachieved tho." In response to Reply # 17 Thu Oct-23-14 12:20 PM by Cenario
>Nevermind how that *team* shot great (in the regular season) from the 3...Nevermind JR had his best season as a pro that season....nevermind the fact JKidd was the REAL leader of that team and kept that locker room together as well as the coach on the floor who was the reason why they were getting good spacing on the floor (early on before their best player resorted back to isolation ball)...nervermind the fact that Woody had them playing D (early on before they resorted back to being who they were)
They played better than they really were. That's called overachieving.
i like how the team overachieved in the regular season but melo underachieved in the playoffs. you can't have it both ways.
-The Knicks’ coaching search still includes a lone frontrunner, Kurt Rambis, whose qualifications for the position include a strong relationship with Jackson and a willingness to take the job.
21. "RE: ^^^bwahahaha the revisionist history is awesome in this post" In response to Reply # 17
>"Melo carried a bum Knicks team" >Nevermind how that *team* shot great (in the regular season) >from the 3...Nevermind JR had his best season as a pro that >season....nevermind the fact JKidd was the REAL leader of that >team and kept that locker room together as well as the coach >on the floor who was the reason why they were getting good >spacing on the floor (early on before their best player >resorted back to isolation ball)...nervermind the fact that >Woody had them playing D (early on before they resorted back >to being who they were) > >Oh and Nevermind that the east was decimated that season due >to key players being out w/injuries - there was literally *3* >good teams in the entire conference > >So this "they overachieved" narrative is vastly overstated and >misleading > >But it's a good way to spin their season and downplay how Melo >'underachieved' during the post season...
I got no skin in this game other than I don't want to hear Melo complain when his team is getting decimated on a daily basis because he chose the money and bully for him...
But even as someone that is coming from it that way can see that "that" Knicks team def. overachieved....The players u named proves this very point...If you are counting on nutty ass JR to play big for you every night and an aging Kidd to work some magic from time to time to actually win games and you actually make it far in the 'offs, then you are def. overachieving....
Melo took a very flawed team and made them look like they were EC contenders....Just saying...
GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....
27. "See, but you can't have it both ways - he was the reason why the *team*" In response to Reply # 21 Thu Oct-23-14 04:27 PM by vee-lover
overachieved during the REGULAR SEASON but he gets none of the blame when he was awful when it mattered most, the postseason...he took more shots in that boston 6 gm (not 7 gms but 6 gms) series than ANY player in a 7 gm series in the history of the league!!!!
Then in the Indy series he was nowhere to be found in 3 straight 4th qtrs. 0/0/4 pts...all three of those gms were winnable gms too...and had their best player given them something, anything, in those 4th qtrs. they could've won that series...wasn't like Indy was running them off the floor in ANY of those gms
Back to the Knicks...
let's remember: JR Smith was in a contract year that season and that was the reason why he balled out...even when Melo missed gms he balled out (earned ECF player of the week)
Their ball movement early that allowed them to get a lot of clean open looks wasn't abt Melo, that was the team buying into Woody's system - towards the end of the reg. season there was no more ball movement and Melo reverted back to being a ball hog...not to mention Kidd's leadership on the team that can't measured in a stat but we see how that locker room started to have problems the following season when he was no longer there
It's funny how that Knicks team was so awful when they were designed exactly like that 2011 championship Mavs (in a much weaker ECF) team that wasn't filled w/a lot of elite players other than Dirk...they even had two important cogs from that Mavs team
I don't wanna hear nada abt the Knicks being bereft of talent when that chubby, grill cheese face gunner complained his way out of Denver instead of waiting til the end of the season leaving the Knicks w/cap space to get some quality FAs
>>"Melo carried a bum Knicks team" >>Nevermind how that *team* shot great (in the regular season) >>from the 3...Nevermind JR had his best season as a pro that >>season....nevermind the fact JKidd was the REAL leader of >that >>team and kept that locker room together as well as the coach >>on the floor who was the reason why they were getting good >>spacing on the floor (early on before their best player >>resorted back to isolation ball)...nervermind the fact that >>Woody had them playing D (early on before they resorted back >>to being who they were) >> >>Oh and Nevermind that the east was decimated that season due >>to key players being out w/injuries - there was literally >*3* >>good teams in the entire conference >> >>So this "they overachieved" narrative is vastly overstated >and >>misleading >> >>But it's a good way to spin their season and downplay how >Melo >>'underachieved' during the post season... > > >I got no skin in this game other than I don't want to hear >Melo complain when his team is getting decimated on a daily >basis because he chose the money and bully for him... > >But even as someone that is coming from it that way can see >that "that" Knicks team def. overachieved....The players u >named proves this very point...If you are counting on nutty >ass JR to play big for you every night and an aging Kidd to >work some magic from time to time to actually win games and >you actually make it far in the 'offs, then you are def. >overachieving.... > >Melo took a very flawed team and made them look like they were >EC contenders....Just saying...
35. "RE: See, but you can't have it both ways - he was the reason why the *te..." In response to Reply # 27 Thu Oct-23-14 10:35 PM by murph71
I can easily have it that way...Because we r talking about JR Smith, a player who is very up and down and and a very old Kidd who was on his way out the door. The only consistent element on that team was Anthony who was coming into his prime that season and was basically unstoppable on the offensive end. He basically did the same thing he did in Denver.
That team was the surprise squad of the East. No one expected them to go that deep in the playoffs. Anthony received 3rd place in MVP voting for a reason...
GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....
49. "And despite JR's spotty play and whoever else ya'll wanna blame for" In response to Reply # 35 Fri Oct-24-14 12:43 PM by vee-lover
them losing to the Pacers, those 3 gms (4/5/6) where Melo went scoreless 2x and had 4 pts.in an elimination gm, the Knicks ONlY lost by an average of *9* pts
To keep harping on how bad Melo's teammates were doesn't fly considering they were in ALL three of those gms in the 4th quarter and got absolutely nothing from their best player...so somebody was doing something to keep them in those gms
An elite player doesn't come up that short...and not get lambasted for it...cuz lord knows if the Heat/Cavs lost a series where Lebron went scoreless 2x and scored 4 pts in the 4th qtr. of an elimination gm, he'd never hear the end of it in the media..and on OKP
See, if Melo BALLED out...and they lost...then I would say the blame on his teammates is justified...but Melo was TERRIBLE in the entire postseason...those same "bad" teammates managed to help him get out of the 1st rd vs the C's where he took and missed more shots than any player in NBA history...and he managed to do this w/o needing 7 gms to do it lol
And let's not forget that PG OUTPLAYED him in that Knick/Pacer series, too, making his failure that more glaring...
Lastly, to say the Knicks *OVERACHIEVED* in the East in 2012-13 isn't saying nothing when you factor in how pathetic the East was in part due to injuries to key players on teams that going into the season ppl thought were playoff teams...there were literally 3 good teams in the east (Brooklyn wasn't good)
>I can easily have it that way...Because we r talking about JR >Smith, a player who is very up and down and and a very old >Kidd who was on his way out the door. The only consistent >element on that team was Anthony who was coming into his prime >that season and was basically unstoppable on the offensive >end. He basically did the same thing he did in Denver. > >That team was the surprise squad of the East. No one expected >them to go that deep in the playoffs. Anthony received 3rd >place in MVP voting for a reason...
56. "Melo averaged 28.8 ppg and 6.6 rpg in the 2013 playoffs" In response to Reply # 49
FG % was lower than it should be(41%), and you can harp on certain quarters or plays if you want to nitpick.....but big picture, the reality is that he produced.
Consider in the Boston series that he had to shoot. JR's dumbass got suspended and then couldn't shoot straight the rest of the playoffs. And Kidd started looking real old by that point. Those guys who were knocking down open shots during the regular season stopped making them. If Melo didn't produce, they go out round 1.
42. "Playoffs, huh? Remember how Kidd and JR played in those playoffs?" In response to Reply # 27
I mean, you know specific stats about Melo(# of shots in Boston series, 4th quarter #'s vs. Pacers).....what was Jason Kidd from the field? 2 for 50? LOL.
JR was terrible in those playoffs too. Melo wasn't perfect, but at least he produced.
48. "I'm crying....niggas is hyping Jason Kidd and JR Smith" In response to Reply # 42
>I mean, you know specific stats about Melo(# of shots in >Boston series, 4th quarter #'s vs. Pacers).....what was Jason >Kidd from the field? 2 for 50? LOL. > >JR was terrible in those playoffs too. Melo wasn't perfect, >but at least he produced.
----------------------------
O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"
55. "they get credited for the overachieving regular season..." In response to Reply # 48
because they played like functional NBA rotation guys. But when they shit the bed in the playoffs, they get no blame.
Meanwhile the guy who was 3rd in MVP voting does not get credit for the regular season overachievement but gets blamed for not carrying Jason Kidd's 87 year old brick laying carcass beyond the 2nd round of the playoffs.
Vee-lover goes all illogical when Melo's name comes up.
60. "None of what you just said makes a lick of sense...that's not how it" In response to Reply # 55 Fri Oct-24-14 05:25 PM by vee-lover
works when you're a star player
>because they played like functional NBA rotation guys. But >when they shit the bed in the playoffs, they get no blame. > >Meanwhile the guy who was 3rd in MVP voting does not get >credit for the regular season overachievement but gets blamed >for not carrying Jason Kidd's 87 year old brick laying carcass >beyond the 2nd round of the playoffs. > >Vee-lover goes all illogical when Melo's name comes up.
30. "niggas be acting like jr is pippin when it comes to melo" In response to Reply # 29
Lol
-The Knicks’ coaching search still includes a lone frontrunner, Kurt Rambis, whose qualifications for the position include a strong relationship with Jackson and a willingness to take the job.
-The Knicks’ coaching search still includes a lone frontrunner, Kurt Rambis, whose qualifications for the position include a strong relationship with Jackson and a willingness to take the job.
24. "I'm leaning 'ball on bad team and blame him' as being the preeminent age..." In response to Reply # 0
with a few of the 'Bronies being mad because when LeBron was out there Favrin' it with the likes of Damon Jones people were sicing Melo (who had the luxury of a much better team) and the tables sure turned over the years.
basically Melo is going to be the new Kobe, and as such he will be unconditionally defended by me (esp. since he stayed with the Knicks)
31. "everyone does. love is only getting a pass as a 2nd/3rd option" In response to Reply # 28 Thu Oct-23-14 06:26 PM by rob
a stat-stuffing 2nd/3rd option, but still a 2nd/3rd option because he's writing pieces about how amazing it is to have teammates who talk to each other and try to be good at basketball like he never figured it out before brondudes showed him.
melo's in a tough spot because most of us think he had potential to be better than that and we're disappointed, but shit broke that way for melo.
63. "that's probably true, but "for no reason" is stretching it" In response to Reply # 32
there's a different standard because they're different people at different stages in their careers
and love's immune to leadership criticism now because he's taken that L repeatedly and no one expects it from him at this point. maybe it'll come up again in 5 years or if he breaks the cavs.
personally i criticize love more than melo. i've only been on melo when he's been called top 3-5 and when he was being compared to bron and durant.
64. "LOL. You just explained a double standard with a double standard. " In response to Reply # 63
>there's a different standard because they're different people >at different stages in their careers > >and love's immune to leadership criticism now because he's >taken that L repeatedly and no one expects it from him at this >point. maybe it'll come up again in 5 years or if he breaks >the cavs.
LOLLLL
How come that didn't make Carmelo immune? So because Carmelo engineered the biggest rookie team turnaround since Bird, never missed the playoffs since last year, its okay to shit on him, and NOT the guy who NEVER played a single playoff game?
Luuuulllzz
>personally i criticize love more than melo. i've only been on >melo when he's been called top 3-5 and when he was being >compared to bron and durant.
LOLZ -- literally nobody says he's Lebron or Durant. Nobody.
65. "you're lying again OE, lots of people thought he was better than durant ..." In response to Reply # 64
in 06-09. a small amount of people set him up as bron's competition.
you're doing the thing where you repeat the same two phrases ("lol" and "double standard") to pretend you're making a point, when there's no point to be made.
they're different people. if melo wanted a k-love pass, then he could have engineered a sign and trade over the summer cleveland. he doesn't and i can respect that, but he's gonna get criticized by people like all basketball players do. and if he talks about wanting to win or leadership in nyc, then he rightly will get fried, because he's made his choices.
78. "Lock and archive. Gooood laaawd" In response to Reply # 75
>17 Games! And their high pick was Nikoloz Tshkishvili > >When Melo gets there, they DON'T miss the playoffs until he >leaves for NY > >As for Love, the year before he gets there the Wolves won 22 >games. > >When Love gets there they improve but DON'T make the >playoffs. > >And you can make the argument the West was just as strong if >not STRONGER when Melo was on Denver > >And Melo had less to work with then Love > >http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DEN/2003.html >http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/MIN/2008.html
----------------------------
O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"
59. "RE: I wouldn't say get his due, more like bare minimum to spin the seaso..." In response to Reply # 58
>a + > >because the east is terrible > >IMO, if you have 1 top ten player (which I think Melo is) > >that should be enough > >at minimum > >to at least grab a 8 seed > >as they almost did last year
I would agree, in most situations. That should be enough. But when you had 2 guys making as much money as Chandler and Amare and producing as little as they did last year, it really handcuffs your roster and hurts your chances.
47. "it shouldn't take 3 years. They have space next season and Melo should" In response to Reply # 43
have some talent around them if the knicks are smart. If not, welp i agree...he made his bed.
-The Knicks’ coaching search still includes a lone frontrunner, Kurt Rambis, whose qualifications for the position include a strong relationship with Jackson and a willingness to take the job.
53. "right, not instant title contenders in '15 but there has got to be marke..." In response to Reply # 51
improvement assuming they upgrade the roster. But i mean, if you just replace AMare wit one dude deserving of 20million, the knicks would be a top 3 team in the east
-The Knicks’ coaching search still includes a lone frontrunner, Kurt Rambis, whose qualifications for the position include a strong relationship with Jackson and a willingness to take the job.
61. "Everyone knows..." In response to Reply # 0 Fri Oct-24-14 05:37 PM by murph71
I wanted Melo on my Bulls squad as insurance just in case the homie Rose tapped out this season...His game fit perfectly for my squad and would have kept teams honest on the defensive end...
I'll laugh at Melo when he starts bitching about losing because that's just the homer in me....
But all that said, anyone trying to fry this dude for not taking a team with JR Smith as your SECOND BEST PLAYER and an elderly Jason Kidd being asked to turn back the clock is doing way too much on this agenda shit...
Anthony makes usually level headed basketball fans say the silliest shit...I saw Bob Ryan get on TV today talking about how Anthony couldn't be your best player on a championship team because he wasn't LeBron or Durant...lol
That's the kind of shit you get with this guy...I wish the Knicks a slow and humiliating death, but that doesn't mean I'm on some hate-on-Anthony-because-it's-easy bullshit...
GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....
68. "Has lived up to his billing and will continue to do so. He is a supersta..." In response to Reply # 0
While the Knicks are figuring out the triangle, he will be the one bailing them out. He will continue to rebound better than his peers at the 3 position. Everything else in this post is bullshit. Knicks fan for life!!!
>While the Knicks are figuring out the triangle, he will be >the one bailing them out. He will continue to rebound better >than his peers at the 3 position. Everything else in this >post is bullshit. Knicks fan for life!!!
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