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Subject: "What is Chris Webber's legacy as a basketball player?" Previous topic | Next topic
Dstl1
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56233 posts
Tue Apr-22-14 08:32 AM

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"What is Chris Webber's legacy as a basketball player?"


          

Like...if you were describing his game to your son who never even knew he played. What were his attributes? Were there any things he did better than most? Fondest memories of him on the court?

  

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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
im 31 and I dont remember a better playmaking 4
Apr 22nd 2014
1
those tapes of him as a 14 15 16 year old....MAN, listen.
Apr 22nd 2014
4
I feel like I remember UM playing inside out with him now and then
Apr 22nd 2014
7
yup, best passing big man ever, he still cut teams up on one leg
Apr 22nd 2014
5
      I was skeptical of how much he would actually help them
Apr 22nd 2014
12
Detroit Country Day.
Apr 22nd 2014
2
Among the 10 best power forwards ever
Apr 22nd 2014
3
Not really saying much
Apr 22nd 2014
25
Meanwhile, it was the premier position of his era
Apr 22nd 2014
28
This nigga said Top 10 PF ever "isn't saying much."
Apr 22nd 2014
46
http://i.imgur.com/JFJl5.gif
Apr 24th 2014
91
Top 20, yes, but not 10, no way
Apr 22nd 2014
65
      No way is Dirk a better 4 than webber
Apr 22nd 2014
70
           RE: No way is Dirk a better 4 than webber
Apr 23rd 2014
72
           i would have him ahead of zbo, that was more of a for instance
Apr 24th 2014
86
dude has THE sharpest nappy fro + temp fade game in history
Apr 22nd 2014
6
LOL he really did. the sculpted goatee/nappy fro combo
Apr 22nd 2014
8
Archive.
Apr 22nd 2014
9
LOL....and he rocks it with precision RIGHT TODAY
Apr 22nd 2014
10
hahahaha.. solid work
Apr 22nd 2014
15
bruh i am truly envious of that shit.
Apr 22nd 2014
36
Seriously.
Apr 22nd 2014
59
Right?
Apr 23rd 2014
75
couple big "what ifs?" with C-Webb, too:
Apr 22nd 2014
11
recently watched a game from the 94 playoffs suns vs. warriors
Apr 22nd 2014
13
in his prime he was almost unstoppable in the paint and had a J
Apr 22nd 2014
14
great athlete who evolved into a great overall offensive player
Apr 22nd 2014
16
kind of disappointing pro career considering his prep/college hype
Apr 22nd 2014
17
No, he gets in the Hall on his pro career alone
Apr 22nd 2014
18
too distracted by the avy to read any of that shit....nm
Apr 22nd 2014
19
lol wut?
Apr 22nd 2014
20
he had a better career than KG up until the 07 trade saved KGs legacy
Apr 22nd 2014
21
lol
Apr 22nd 2014
23
Nah - KG's MVP alone gave him the edge over C Webb
Apr 22nd 2014
24
naw that shit was def up for discussion
Apr 22nd 2014
29
      it was close but KG was considered slightly better
Apr 22nd 2014
30
      FOh ock!
Apr 22nd 2014
31
LMAO
Apr 23rd 2014
84
the timeout scarred him in crunch time situations for sure
Apr 22nd 2014
26
      ^^ tis all I'm saying
Apr 22nd 2014
27
      Wing scorers and ball handlers are fourth quarter scorers
Apr 22nd 2014
34
      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Apr 22nd 2014
35
      RE: Wing scorers and ball handlers are fourth quarter scorers
Apr 22nd 2014
55
      Duncan also blew a layup that cost them the 2013 Championship
Apr 22nd 2014
57
           RE: Duncan also blew a layup that cost them the 2013 Championship
Apr 22nd 2014
63
           The Lay-up in Gm 7 WASN'T a go-ahead basket
Apr 22nd 2014
69
           I'll take cottage cheese with those coppin pleas
Apr 23rd 2014
74
                He missed a meaningless lay-up in a game..how petty
Apr 23rd 2014
83
           the point is that Duncan has the confidence to take that shot
Apr 23rd 2014
77
      O_E....you're an idiot
Apr 22nd 2014
71
           Dog, Duncan just missed a bunny in the NBA Finals...sorry.
Apr 23rd 2014
73
           The Bunny isn't in the same stratosphere as Ewing's nor C-Webbs mishaps
Apr 23rd 2014
82
           DAMN
Apr 23rd 2014
78
      that's easy to say but not really true
Apr 22nd 2014
66
hmm I'd say a guy w/uncanny athletic ability for someone w/his size
Apr 22nd 2014
22
Bigger college than pro legacy. And that's not an insult.
Apr 22nd 2014
32
Yeah, I have serious problems with this narrative
Apr 22nd 2014
45
      I would argue that we do.
Apr 22nd 2014
52
TO
Apr 22nd 2014
33
Game 6 -- 2002 WCF
Apr 22nd 2014
37
smh...
Apr 22nd 2014
38
      ? - please expound...just want to see why you disagree
Apr 22nd 2014
40
           he a Laker fanboy that's why
Apr 22nd 2014
41
           there was nothing wrong with the way game 6 was called
Apr 22nd 2014
43
                FOH
Apr 22nd 2014
61
                Smdh
Apr 22nd 2014
62
CWebb is one of the most underappreciated players ever
Apr 22nd 2014
39
If Orlando had went for the twin towers option instead of
Apr 22nd 2014
42
Don Nelson was the one who cried. Chris actually said nothing.
Apr 22nd 2014
44
      C-Webb had multiple tv intereviews
Apr 22nd 2014
47
           That was way, way later. Trust me. Nelly went to press FIRST.
Apr 22nd 2014
49
           lol... I don't like Black men..right...
Apr 22nd 2014
50
                Dog, Nellie didn't win SHIT as a coach for a REASON
Apr 22nd 2014
56
                     he's the winningest coach in NBA history...
Apr 22nd 2014
58
                          ...and never coached a team as good as Webber's Kings
Apr 23rd 2014
76
                               80-81 Bucks >> them Kings...
Apr 23rd 2014
81
                                    Bwahahah nigga went back to 1927
Apr 24th 2014
89
                                         Those Bucks were better
Apr 24th 2014
90
           Sorry Warren...that was Nellie's fault.
Apr 24th 2014
85
One of the best passing bigs ever
Apr 22nd 2014
48
RE: What is Chris Webber's legacy as a basketball player?
Apr 22nd 2014
51
Wasn't as dominant as Barkley & didn't have Malone's longivity
Apr 22nd 2014
53
One of the most talented and mercurial cats to ever play the game
Apr 22nd 2014
54
HANDS, amazing hands. Maybe the best ever for a BIG.
Apr 22nd 2014
60
yup, they were very soft and very quick. melo and mailman are ...
Apr 22nd 2014
67
      Is there such a thing as "quick hands" in bball terminology?
Apr 22nd 2014
68
           sure, i think so, especially around the basket. melo's hands r def faste...
Apr 24th 2014
87
J.A. Adande NAILED it in his retirement column:
Apr 22nd 2014
64
LMAO. this highlight reel is crazy (youtube)
Apr 23rd 2014
79
My goodness...
Apr 23rd 2014
80
he looked like he broke out the Carlton dance @ 1:00 - lolololol
Apr 24th 2014
88
Great Grantland article on Chris Webber's legacy as a basketball player
Apr 24th 2014
92

cgonz00cc
Member since Aug 01st 2002
35266 posts
Tue Apr-22-14 08:55 AM

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1. "im 31 and I dont remember a better playmaking 4"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Thats the biggest standout to me, whether finding cutters in the post or leading the break.

Next I would say his ability to convert OReb into buckets. He was a very quick jumper and he had crazy strong hands that still showed a delicate touch around the rim.

  

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guru0509
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Tue Apr-22-14 09:01 AM

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4. "those tapes of him as a 14 15 16 year old....MAN, listen."
In response to Reply # 1


  

          

He used to be pretty damn good at shooting the 3 too but Fish never let him wander that far out of the paint (for good reason) but still...

the best passing "big man" ive ever seen in my life...hands down.

-------------------
I wanna go to where the martyrs went
the brown figures on the walls of my apart-a-ment...

  

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cgonz00cc
Member since Aug 01st 2002
35266 posts
Tue Apr-22-14 09:14 AM

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7. "I feel like I remember UM playing inside out with him now and then"
In response to Reply # 4


  

          

Posting King and Rose and letting Webber make plays on the perimeter

Thats so long ago tho. Id love to watch those games again.

  

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celery77
Member since Aug 04th 2005
25307 posts
Tue Apr-22-14 09:12 AM

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5. "yup, best passing big man ever, he still cut teams up on one leg"
In response to Reply # 1


  

          

I remember going to see a Golden State v. Detroit game on Oakland when Weber was having his cup of coffee with the Pistons. He DEFINITELY only had one leg at this point in his career, but Detroit still ran sets for Webber in the low-block and he set up an office and just carved the Warriors up by passing out of there. It was something to see.

___________

HOPE!
https://vine.co/v/i7JjIBL3Qix
https://vine.co/v/i7JtqEFwxDu

  

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cgonz00cc
Member since Aug 01st 2002
35266 posts
Tue Apr-22-14 09:18 AM

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12. "I was skeptical of how much he would actually help them"
In response to Reply # 5


  

          

But once he got here it was like having a second pg on the court

And even on one leg you're right about him setting up and being just about unmovable

  

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guru0509
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Tue Apr-22-14 08:59 AM

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2. "Detroit Country Day."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

-------------------
I wanna go to where the martyrs went
the brown figures on the walls of my apart-a-ment...

  

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Orbit_Established
Member since Oct 27th 2002
52934 posts
Tue Apr-22-14 08:59 AM

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3. "Among the 10 best power forwards ever"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          


His playmaking and ball handling were among the
best the position has ever seen

His peak overlapped with those Laker teams and his Sac-led
teams STILL almost beat them

An outstanding career by every conceivable measure

  

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melmag
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18470 posts
Tue Apr-22-14 10:00 AM

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25. "Not really saying much"
In response to Reply # 3


  

          


considering the PF position argaubly has the least depth of out of all 5 positions.

  

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Cold Truth
Member since Jan 28th 2004
44856 posts
Tue Apr-22-14 10:14 AM

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28. "Meanwhile, it was the premier position of his era"
In response to Reply # 25
Tue Apr-22-14 10:15 AM by Cold Truth

  

          

It was the position even the Lakers were scrambling to deal with, and Chris was a big reason why.

For a guy to be considered top ten all time while being among the best of his era at the position during a time when the position was in a renaissance is actually saying a whole hell of a lot.

-Sig-

“Why didn’t you do this in your own god damn country?"

-All Stah's view on undocumented immigrants wanting to be treated like human beings.

  

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Orbit_Established
Member since Oct 27th 2002
52934 posts
Tue Apr-22-14 01:12 PM

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46. "This nigga said Top 10 PF ever "isn't saying much." "
In response to Reply # 25
Tue Apr-22-14 01:13 PM by Orbit_Established

  

          

LOL -- shut the entire fuck up B

----------------------------



O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

  

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astralblak
Member since Apr 05th 2007
20029 posts
Thu Apr-24-14 11:13 AM

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91. "http://i.imgur.com/JFJl5.gif"
In response to Reply # 25


  

          

http://i.imgur.com/JFJl5.gif

  

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ConcreteCharlie
Member since Nov 21st 2002
71387 posts
Tue Apr-22-14 10:14 PM

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65. "Top 20, yes, but not 10, no way"
In response to Reply # 3


  

          

Garnett, Nowitzki, Malone, Barkley, McHale, Hayes, Petit ... that's seven guys I would consider definite fours and definitely ahead of Webber. I would consider Dolph Schayes a dominant enough player in his era to include him as well.

Then there are enough arguables to squeeze him out of the top ten. In recent years I'd argue Rodman was a more valuable player but it's hard comparison stylistically. Some of his peers like Sheed and Zach Randolph were very close, obviously Love right now. You look back at Mo Lucas, George McGinnis, Buck Williams, Dave Debusschere, Shawn Kemp, Jerry Lucas, et al, it seems tough for Webber to make the cut of ten. Twenty though, sure, I will go with that.

And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

  

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kayru99
Member since Jan 26th 2004
16105 posts
Tue Apr-22-14 11:19 PM

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70. "No way is Dirk a better 4 than webber"
In response to Reply # 65


          

Dirk's a jumpshooter. No d, no passing, no post game.
Garnett? Depends on what you want outta your 4. I think Webber was better ball handler, passer, paint defender, low post player...yeah, fuck that he better than Garnett, lol.

Zach? Man, FOH. And I LOVE his game, but he ain't athletic enough. Or a good enough passer.

  

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okayplayery
Member since Aug 25th 2012
518 posts
Wed Apr-23-14 12:43 AM

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72. "RE: No way is Dirk a better 4 than webber"
In response to Reply # 70


          

>Garnett? Depends on what you want outta your 4. I think Webber
>was better ball handler, passer, paint defender, low post
>player...yeah, fuck that he better than Garnett, lol.

KG carved him up in 2004 with the worse supporting cast to boot, so...

Better ball-handler and paint defender? Yall musta forgot, lol. KG was bringing the ball up in that series and crossing C-Webb to the rim.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhCOECOX_-M

  

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ConcreteCharlie
Member since Nov 21st 2002
71387 posts
Thu Apr-24-14 01:23 AM

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86. "i would have him ahead of zbo, that was more of a for instance"
In response to Reply # 70


  

          

nowitzki was a four and was a better player than webber. i didnt know we were nitpicking purity of position. garnett is a better player, four, winner and living organism in ANY universe (you have to read that in bill walton's voice).

And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

  

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Binlahab
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Tue Apr-22-14 09:12 AM

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6. "dude has THE sharpest nappy fro + temp fade game in history"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

his shit is the perfect combo of idgaf BUT still tailored & clean looking

  

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cgonz00cc
Member since Aug 01st 2002
35266 posts
Tue Apr-22-14 09:16 AM

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8. "LOL he really did. the sculpted goatee/nappy fro combo "
In response to Reply # 6


  

          

  

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Orbit_Established
Member since Oct 27th 2002
52934 posts
Tue Apr-22-14 09:17 AM

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9. "Archive. "
In response to Reply # 6


  

          

>his shit is the perfect combo of idgaf BUT still tailored &
>clean looking
>
>


----------------------------



O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

  

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Dstl1
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56233 posts
Tue Apr-22-14 09:17 AM

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10. "LOL....and he rocks it with precision RIGHT TODAY"
In response to Reply # 6


          

.

  

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LegacyNS
Member since Jan 16th 2004
38095 posts
Tue Apr-22-14 09:33 AM

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15. "hahahaha.. solid work"
In response to Reply # 6


  

          


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
<---- 5....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dlgiritpmfo

=======================================

Ditch the paper, save the trees, and go mobile! Text bizcard to 32462!

  

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BrooklynWHAT
Member since Jun 15th 2007
85077 posts
Tue Apr-22-14 11:17 AM

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36. "bruh i am truly envious of that shit."
In response to Reply # 6


  

          

<--- Big Baller World Order

  

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micMajestic
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22938 posts
Tue Apr-22-14 02:48 PM

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59. "Seriously. "
In response to Reply # 6


          

>his shit is the perfect combo of idgaf BUT still tailored &
>clean looking
>
>


_________________________________________

Lately I've had the strangest feeling.... that you were GOOOONNNNEEEE

  

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illEskoBar221
Member since Oct 18th 2004
8453 posts
Wed Apr-23-14 05:39 AM

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75. "Right?"
In response to Reply # 6


  

          

_____________________________

<----- Genesis is deep my features are that of a God


http://illeskobar.deviantart.com/
http://thisiskyleskorner.blogspot.com/

  

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celery77
Member since Aug 04th 2005
25307 posts
Tue Apr-22-14 09:18 AM

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11. "couple big "what ifs?" with C-Webb, too:"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

1 - What if he got drafted by Orlando, instead of traded, and played alongside Shaq?
2 - What if the TO never happens and, win or lose, he isn't the poster child of a Michigan collapse?
3 - What if he comes into a league with a rookie salary scale and MAX contracts, instead of the era where a guy like Derrick Coleman was trying desperately to be the first $100M man?
4 - What if Webber and Don Nelson are able to form a lasting peace and Nelson is free to experiment with C-Webb lineups to his heart's content?

Of course, the eventual union with Rick Adelman and Vlade Divac was a bit of a best case scenario for Webber's talents, and that's when we saw them shine the most in Sacramento, so you can't go too far down that rabbit hole. Ultimately, you just have a phenomenal, unmatched talent whose struggles with off-court issues slightly derailed what otherwise would have been a pantheon career.

___________

HOPE!
https://vine.co/v/i7JjIBL3Qix
https://vine.co/v/i7JtqEFwxDu

  

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southphillyman
Member since Oct 22nd 2003
90059 posts
Tue Apr-22-14 09:24 AM

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13. "recently watched a game from the 94 playoffs suns vs. warriors"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

cwebb, avery johnson, and mullin on the fastbreak? sheesh
his basketball IQ as a rookie just seemed off the charts to me. polished as fuck (even though barkley still got in that ass)

  

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JAESCOTT777
Member since Feb 18th 2006
28487 posts
Tue Apr-22-14 09:27 AM

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14. "in his prime he was almost unstoppable in the paint and had a J "
In response to Reply # 0
Tue Apr-22-14 09:31 AM by JAESCOTT777

  

          

as he got older he started becoming more of a jump shooter

he was right there with KG, and TD
if you wanna go box score bob

his career numbers are almost identical to kg
def one of the best 4's I've ever seen

i always felt bad for dude cause he DEF would have gotten a ring if it weren't for corrupt officiating in the 02 WCFs


Web doin work:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iv_mNAqSCM4
^^bodybaggin Jermaine Oneal lol

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QM8lsrwsQqM
random HL

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QItjQjlMNOA
showdown with ELMO he had 34/19 elmo had 33/20

  

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deezy
Member since Jul 22nd 2013
1029 posts
Tue Apr-22-14 09:36 AM

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16. "great athlete who evolved into a great overall offensive player"
In response to Reply # 0


          

given my age, my clearest memories are of him with Sacramento where
he was used as a play-maker working from the elbow

decent jumpshot, good passer, good bball IQ, competitive, intense

  

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melmag
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Tue Apr-22-14 09:44 AM

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17. "kind of disappointing pro career considering his prep/college hype"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Ultimately his lasting legacy will always be infamous "timeout" but he did little to redeem himself even in the pros. Sure he had some health issues, but he never really lived up to expectations. While he possessed all the tools for greatness (great size, adeptness & natural instincts, etc), he always looked shook at critical moments of the game, and rarely ever fully left his imprint/impact on a game.

lastly, he eventually gets in the HOF but mostly for his prep & college accolades & notoriety (mostly for 1991 McDonalds Game MVP & National HS POY), and best player on famed Fab 5 team. If I were judging his inclusion solely based on his NBA career, I'd certainly leave him out.

  

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Orbit_Established
Member since Oct 27th 2002
52934 posts
Tue Apr-22-14 09:47 AM

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18. "No, he gets in the Hall on his pro career alone"
In response to Reply # 17


  

          


>lastly, he eventually gets in the HOF but mostly for his prep
>& college accolades & notoriety (mostly for 1991 McDonalds
>Game MVP & National HS POY), and best player on famed Fab 5
>team. If I were judging his inclusion solely based on his NBA
>career, I'd certainly leave him out.

The webber as disappointment meme is one of the least
intelligent basketball points ever

----------------------------



O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

  

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guru0509
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19. "too distracted by the avy to read any of that shit....nm"
In response to Reply # 17


  

          

-------------------
I wanna go to where the martyrs went
the brown figures on the walls of my apart-a-ment...

  

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cgonz00cc
Member since Aug 01st 2002
35266 posts
Tue Apr-22-14 09:50 AM

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20. "lol wut?"
In response to Reply # 17


  

          

Jonathan Bender and Ronald Curry have the same pair of prep accolades

Will they get into the hall of fame too?

  

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southphillyman
Member since Oct 22nd 2003
90059 posts
Tue Apr-22-14 09:51 AM

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21. "he had a better career than KG up until the 07 trade saved KGs legacy"
In response to Reply # 17


  

          

  

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melmag
Charter member
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Tue Apr-22-14 09:55 AM

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23. "lol"
In response to Reply # 21


  

          


just NO

  

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vee-lover
Member since Jul 30th 2007
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24. "Nah - KG's MVP alone gave him the edge over C Webb"
In response to Reply # 21


  

          

grassrootsphilosopher

  

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southphillyman
Member since Oct 22nd 2003
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29. "naw that shit was def up for discussion"
In response to Reply # 24


  

          

acting like it was clear cut is revisionist
obs the chip changes everything tho, but pre chip KG is the level Cwebb was on

  

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vee-lover
Member since Jul 30th 2007
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30. "it was close but KG was considered slightly better"
In response to Reply # 29


  

          

grassrootsphilosopher

  

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melmag
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31. "FOh ock!"
In response to Reply # 29


  

          

its certainly clear cut, KG was easily the better player even before Boston: one MVP (could've been 2 easily),The best Webber ever did was finish 4th for MVP in 2001. Also KG was a better defensive player (both individually & team), & more All NBA teams

Though I'll admit, both are prolly not guys you should count on for anchoring your team in crunchtime


  

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Marauder21
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84. "LMAO"
In response to Reply # 21


  

          

ARCHIVE

------

12 play and 12 planets are enlighten for all the Aliens to Party and free those on the Sex Planet-maxxx

XBL: trkc21
Twitter: @tyrcasey

  

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Amritsar
Member since Jan 18th 2008
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Tue Apr-22-14 10:04 AM

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26. "the timeout scarred him in crunch time situations for sure"
In response to Reply # 17
Tue Apr-22-14 10:07 AM by Amritsar

  

          

he deserves tons of credit for those Sacramento years ...that was his peak and he's a HOFer


but for all that he did, I don't remember Webber doing much in playoff crunch time.


The 98-99 series vs Utah. Who do they decide to go to when it counted? Vlade Divac in the post, not Webber


The rigged Laker series in game 7? He deferred to Bibby after Vlade fouled out.


It was never a question of talent, but whether or not he could take over a game when it mattered.


He simply couldn't get over that mental hurdle. Its not really a stretch either.

This was the same kid coaches had to "toughen" up because he would get too emotional on the court at times.

  

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melmag
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27. "^^ tis all I'm saying"
In response to Reply # 26


  

          

the talent was definitely there, but the output was left much to be desired


>he deserves tons of credit for those Sacramento years ...that
>was his peak and he's a HOFer
>
>
>but for all that he did, I don't remember Webber doing much in
>playoff crunch time.
>
>
>The 98-99 series vs Utah. Who do they decide to go to when it
>counted? Vlade Divac in the post, not Webber
>
>
>The rigged Laker series in game 7? He deferred to Bibby after
>Vlade fouled out.
>
>
>It was never a question of talent, but whether or not he could
>take over a game when it mattered.
>
>
>He simply couldn't get over that mental hurdle. Its not
>really a stretch either.
>
>This was the same kid coaches had to "toughen" up because he
>would get too emotional on the court at times.
>

  

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Orbit_Established
Member since Oct 27th 2002
52934 posts
Tue Apr-22-14 10:47 AM

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34. "Wing scorers and ball handlers are fourth quarter scorers"
In response to Reply # 26


  

          


Do Malone, Duncan, or KG have game winning, end of
game performances? Not really. Its almost always wing
scorers or ball handlers.

KG was the best player on the Celtics, but Paul Pierce
was the guy who cut it up in the clutch on the 08
'chip team

Ginobli and Parker were cutting up team in the fourth
quarters of several games instead of Duncan

Kobe and Horry were doing it in close games with the Lakers,
not Shaq

----------------------------



O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

  

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soulfunk
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35. "^^^^^^^^^^^^^^"
In response to Reply # 34


  

          

  

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COOLEHMAGAZINE
Member since May 22nd 2007
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Tue Apr-22-14 02:08 PM

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55. "RE: Wing scorers and ball handlers are fourth quarter scorers"
In response to Reply # 34


          

>
>Do Malone, Duncan, or KG have game winning, end of
>game performances? Not really. Its almost always wing
>scorers or ball handlers.
>
>KG was the best player on the Celtics, but Paul Pierce
>was the guy who cut it up in the clutch on the 08
>'chip team
>
>Ginobli and Parker were cutting up team in the fourth
>quarters of several games instead of Duncan

Agree with your points regarding Webber's place in the game, big fan of his, but Duncan has a bunch of crunchtime scoring/assist moments.

Right before Fisher's .04 bullshit, Duncan made one of the best, bigtime shots I have ever seen. And it would have been a game-winner for the ages if not for what followed.

I'm from the lost black tribe of Israel, the Yos

http://coolehmag.com/frontEnd/

  

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Orbit_Established
Member since Oct 27th 2002
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57. "Duncan also blew a layup that cost them the 2013 Championship"
In response to Reply # 55


  

          


We don't talk about it because its Duncan, and
he's a 4, and 4s typically aren't held to that
"end of game" standard


----------------------------



O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

  

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COOLEHMAGAZINE
Member since May 22nd 2007
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Tue Apr-22-14 04:54 PM

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63. "RE: Duncan also blew a layup that cost them the 2013 Championship"
In response to Reply # 57


          

Regardless, he takes shots in cruchtime and always has, that's it.


Whether you deem that the exception to the rule or what, that's another debate. I am merely saying Tim Duncan is not in the category you are delineating.

He asks for the ball in cruchtime and has made big ones and missed them, but the offense runs through him (as much as it can in Pop's multifacted scheme).


I personally do think Chris had a mental block, and it's understandable why he would end up shying away from some of those moments. But idiots on here saying his pro career was an embarassment or disappointment, is just that, idiocy.

He was not as good as Charles Barkley or Karl Malone, not exactly a crime

I'm from the lost black tribe of Israel, the Yos

http://coolehmag.com/frontEnd/

  

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FILF
Member since Jun 01st 2007
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Tue Apr-22-14 11:14 PM

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69. "The Lay-up in Gm 7 WASN'T a go-ahead basket"
In response to Reply # 57


  

          

There was 48 seconds left & Heat were up 2: had Tim made the lay-up the game would have been tied except Bron's basket to put the Heat up 4 would have been the go ahead basket.

Basically, that lay-up might have made it a one possession game but w/ the way Manu was playing & Top5 being MIA in Gm 7...I highly doubt they would have scored anyways. (Manu proceeded to turn the ball over & brick a 3 on consecutive possession after the Heat went up by 4). 2013 wasn't meant to be & Gm 6 was proof of it. Nobody who had 2 sets of eyes can claim that Tim's missed layup was what cost the Spurs the title.

On the other hand, Ewing missed a shot AT THE BUZZER that would have sent the game to OT.

WHAT'S GOOD *****? What's REALLY good?!?!????!!! Ha HA!
http://40.media.tumblr.com/d8e2daf9f3f37244cd05436bcdf05973/tumblr_mt4qibKq4c1rgam01o1_1280.png

  

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Orbit_Established
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74. "I'll take cottage cheese with those coppin pleas"
In response to Reply # 69


  

          


He missed, embarrassing so

Still the best power forward ever tho

----------------------------



O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

  

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FILF
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83. "He missed a meaningless lay-up in a game..how petty"
In response to Reply # 74


  

          

Bron hit the shot in the following possession & Manu turned the ball over following that......thus, the Bunny is totally meaningless.

WHAT'S GOOD *****? What's REALLY good?!?!????!!! Ha HA!
http://40.media.tumblr.com/d8e2daf9f3f37244cd05436bcdf05973/tumblr_mt4qibKq4c1rgam01o1_1280.png

  

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Amritsar
Member since Jan 18th 2008
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Wed Apr-23-14 08:57 AM

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77. "the point is that Duncan has the confidence to take that shot"
In response to Reply # 57


  

          

whereas Webber would simply disappear in big situations


its not a knock to say that....its just facts god

  

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FILF
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71. "O_E....you're an idiot"
In response to Reply # 34


  

          

>Do Malone, Duncan, or KG have game winning, end of
>game performances?

-Malone nope (GOAT choker...the only one I remember is the leak out in the Finals)

-KG: Whooped C-Webb in the 4th quarter of Gm 7 (2004)

-Tim: Plenty (I'm going to list what I can remember)

--Destroyed Hod Rod/McDyess in the 4th quarter of his FIRST ever playoff game (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FB7XD8km7L0)
--Took over in the 4th quarter of Gm 7 (2005 Finals) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BxIa4XrHh4Q)
--Took over in the 4th quarter of Gm 5 (Championship clincher) (1999 Finals) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-BPQ192bPQ)
--The 3 pointer against the Suns (2008)(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6DYJKoCjWrQ)
--The shot over Shaq the preceded Fishers 0.4 (2004) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=NSnAvhvfniw#t=34)
--Game winner against Ray's Sonics to win the series(2005)(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8LxfOV5B9Ko)
--Dropped 37/16 in a Series clincher to end the Shaq/Kobe era(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_iN6qwvoS8)
--Shyt he even dropped 25 in the 1st half of a possible Championship clincher at 37 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0uCTXqNIxoU)
.....and this is just in the post-season


>KG was the best player on the Celtics, but Paul Pierce
>was the guy who cut it up in the clutch on the 08
>'chip team
True.

>Ginobli and Parker were cutting up team in the fourth
>quarters of several games instead of Duncan
Manu fouled Dirk in the 4th quarter of Gm 7 (2006)& was point shaving in 2013. Meanwhile Top5 was sitting on the bench in the 4th quarter of the 2003 Finals.

>Kobe and Horry were doing it in close games with the Lakers,
>not Shaq
True

WHAT'S GOOD *****? What's REALLY good?!?!????!!! Ha HA!
http://40.media.tumblr.com/d8e2daf9f3f37244cd05436bcdf05973/tumblr_mt4qibKq4c1rgam01o1_1280.png

  

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Orbit_Established
Member since Oct 27th 2002
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73. "Dog, Duncan just missed a bunny in the NBA Finals...sorry. "
In response to Reply # 71


  

          


If Kobe or Lebron do that, we knock them for a career

We don't hate Timmay because he's a 4, and 4s aren't
really end-of-game scorers like that.

Its all love.

But to use end-of-game scoring to knock Webber's career
is hoe shit.

  

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FILF
Member since Jun 01st 2007
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82. "The Bunny isn't in the same stratosphere as Ewing's nor C-Webbs mishaps "
In response to Reply # 73


  

          

There have been plenty of point blank missed shots in the last 5 seconds of the game (last possession of the game). Again Tim missed a shot that would have just TIED the game w/ over 45 sec left (enough time for 2 legit possession). The fact that Bron jumper was stuck on automatic & the he DID actually hit a jumper following Tim's miss while Manu was out there point shaving & turned the ball over in the following Spurs possession should all but absolve Tim from having "cost his team the championship". That is just a flat out petty claim.

Off the top of my head...Didn't Shaq miss a bunny before Vlade tapped it out to Horry? https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=iYQDsZljAOY#t=11 (But Horry bailed him out so nobody bring it up)

In the closing minutes of Gm.6 Bron turned the ball over twice & bricked two wide open 3 before Ray/Bosh bailed him out (But Ray made the shot so nobody bring it up)

......and Tim missed a Bunny w/ 48 sec left just to tie the game that Bron would have broken anyways & O_E is still stacking claim to it as "having cost the Spurs a chip"..FOH!

C-Webb & Sheed choked in 2002/2000 WCF receptively...for the ENTIRE 12 minutes of the 4th quarter. Ewing at least was balling before he missed the shot at the buzzer...shyt happens.

WHAT'S GOOD *****? What's REALLY good?!?!????!!! Ha HA!
http://40.media.tumblr.com/d8e2daf9f3f37244cd05436bcdf05973/tumblr_mt4qibKq4c1rgam01o1_1280.png

  

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Amritsar
Member since Jan 18th 2008
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78. "DAMN "
In response to Reply # 71


  

          



>--Destroyed Hod Rod/McDyess in the 4th quarter of his FIRST
>ever playoff game
>(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FB7XD8km7L0)
>--Took over in the 4th quarter of Gm 7 (2005 Finals)
>(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BxIa4XrHh4Q)
>--Took over in the 4th quarter of Gm 5 (Championship clincher)
>(1999 Finals) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-BPQ192bPQ)
>--The 3 pointer against the Suns
>(2008)(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6DYJKoCjWrQ)
>--The shot over Shaq the preceded Fishers 0.4 (2004)
>(https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=NSnAvhvfniw#t=34)
>--Game winner against Ray's Sonics to win the
>series(2005)(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8LxfOV5B9Ko)
>--Dropped 37/16 in a Series clincher to end the Shaq/Kobe
>era(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_iN6qwvoS8)
>--Shyt he even dropped 25 in the 1st half of a possible
>Championship clincher at 37
>(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0uCTXqNIxoU)
>.....and this is just in the post-season







  

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ConcreteCharlie
Member since Nov 21st 2002
71387 posts
Tue Apr-22-14 10:17 PM

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66. "that's easy to say but not really true"
In response to Reply # 26


  

          

he shot the ball terribly and generally underperformed his first three years in sac. he was good but not great on their run to game 7 of the WCF. was he bad enough to be exemplified by a travel and a timeout he didn't have? no, but who is? he underperformed as a whole.

And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

  

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vee-lover
Member since Jul 30th 2007
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Tue Apr-22-14 09:51 AM

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22. "hmm I'd say a guy w/uncanny athletic ability for someone w/his size"
In response to Reply # 0
Tue Apr-22-14 10:06 AM by vee-lover

  

          

who became an excellent overall skillful power forward...great passing ability and a solid midrange jumpshot

*BUT*

there was something missing in his game when it came to the intangibles. Still a HOFer but never having won a championship or even played in one is what prevents him being considered amongst the all-time elite power forwards.

grassrootsphilosopher

  

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Frank Longo
Member since Nov 18th 2003
86672 posts
Tue Apr-22-14 10:35 AM

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32. "Bigger college than pro legacy. And that's not an insult."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

It's just a testament to how enormous the Fab Five were.

It's sad but true that his "most memorable moment"" is the timeout. If you asked strangers on the street to name a Chris Webber moment, it's not a dunk or a sick play or a clutch shot, it's the timeout.

But that doesn't undo that he was a brilliant player at both levels and part of an absolutely game-changing collective in college.

My movies: http://russellhainline.com
My movie reviews: https://letterboxd.com/RussellHFilm/
My beer TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@thebeertravelguide

  

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Orbit_Established
Member since Oct 27th 2002
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45. "Yeah, I have serious problems with this narrative"
In response to Reply # 32


  

          


The timeout being his legacy isn't an objective thing.
its only the most memorable thing about him because
people are idiots who don't watch basketball. I hate how
we turn these subjective events into truths. They don't
have to be.

We can CHOOSE to focus on the fact that he was one of the
most delightfully awesome teammates that the power forward
position has ever seen, could legitimately run an offense
from the four, had legit point guard passing ability, and
could handle it. And his Sac teams came REALLY close to
beating those mighty Laker teams.

All this lowest common denominator shit is lame

We don't have to define the narrative based on the low
IQ of most people


----------------------------



O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

  

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Frank Longo
Member since Nov 18th 2003
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Tue Apr-22-14 01:59 PM

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52. "I would argue that we do."
In response to Reply # 45


  

          


>We don't have to define the narrative based on the low
>IQ of most people

I mean, Lord knows I have detailed and specific memories of Duke players and their legacies. But the attentive fans don't really get to define legacies-- the layman does.

I can't change the narrative of JJ Redick from "tournament choke artist" to "one of the most dominant ACC players in my lifetime," no matter how hard I try. And real fans of basketball know the latter... but again, I've found real fans rarely get the final say.

I may just be too cynical for this debate though.

My movies: http://russellhainline.com
My movie reviews: https://letterboxd.com/RussellHFilm/
My beer TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@thebeertravelguide

  

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bentagain
Member since Mar 19th 2008
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Tue Apr-22-14 10:41 AM

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33. "TO"
In response to Reply # 0
Tue Apr-22-14 11:08 AM by bentagain

  

          

as a player

he was an overpowering physical presence in college and the early years in the NBA

he managed to add ALOT to his game

and by the time he made SAC into a contender

he really had no flaws

back to the baket, post up moves

GREAT PASSER

consistent jumper you had to respect

unfortunately, his legacy will be that TO and Robert Horry

I don't think time will be kind to CWebb

Sheed, KG and Duncan will be held in higher regard for getting rings

but CWebb was that dude for a few years.

---------------------------------------------------------------

If you can't understand it without an explanation

you can't understand it with an explanation

  

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Typical OKP
Member since Oct 19th 2006
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Tue Apr-22-14 12:10 PM

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37. "Game 6 -- 2002 WCF"
In response to Reply # 0
Tue Apr-22-14 12:31 PM by Typical OKP

  

          

Unfortunately, that's the first thing i think of when i think of Webber.

Not a Kings fan by any means...but the refs in Game 6 significantly affected that team's legacy -- both individually and collectively. How different would we look at Webber, Coach Adelman, Bibby, etc. today if that game was called with any ounce of integrity?

Let's not act like Donaghy was the only one involved in that shit...

  

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Warren Coolidge
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Tue Apr-22-14 12:15 PM

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38. "smh..."
In response to Reply # 37


  

          

  

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Typical OKP
Member since Oct 19th 2006
183 posts
Tue Apr-22-14 12:18 PM

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40. "? - please expound...just want to see why you disagree"
In response to Reply # 38


  

          

  

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melmag
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Tue Apr-22-14 12:24 PM

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41. "he a Laker fanboy that's why"
In response to Reply # 40


  

          


  

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Warren Coolidge
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Tue Apr-22-14 12:44 PM

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43. "there was nothing wrong with the way game 6 was called"
In response to Reply # 40


  

          

nothing....

it's a myth...

with the amount of flopping that Vlade did in game 2, it's a joke that people really bring up anything about game 6....

  

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cantball
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61. "FOH"
In response to Reply # 43


  

          


____________________

Behold my works,ye mighty

  

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JAESCOTT777
Member since Feb 18th 2006
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Tue Apr-22-14 03:57 PM

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62. "Smdh "
In response to Reply # 43


  

          

  

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rjc27
Charter member
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39. "CWebb is one of the most underappreciated players ever"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

He should have a ring too, think about the few great players who have rings, and if that ball doesnt get tipped to Horry or the NBA doesn't cheat he has a ring as the best player on an NBA team...

A good rebounder, excellent scorer, but my fave thing about watching Webb was his vision out of the post... that was the best thing about those kings teams, watching him and Vlade make sweet passes to 3 point shooters or other guys slashing towards the basket...

I hate the way Webber's career kind of just ended, he is not remembered nearly fondly as he should be

  

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Warren Coolidge
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42. "If Orlando had went for the twin towers option instead of "
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

going for Penny..... It would have been interesting to see how a Shaq-C.Webb combo would have worked out....

one of the things I think of is how Weber's early lack of maturity kind of messed things up for him and the Warriors with him crying about how Don Nelson was mean to him..lol.

but he ended up having a really solid career...

and he's turned into a good commentator also...

  

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Orbit_Established
Member since Oct 27th 2002
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44. "Don Nelson was the one who cried. Chris actually said nothing."
In response to Reply # 42


  

          

>going for Penny..... It would have been interesting to see
>how a Shaq-C.Webb combo would have worked out....

Nah, Penny-Shaq would have been fine if Penny didn't get
hurt.

Penny was a fucking dynamo before he got hurt.

>one of the things I think of is how Weber's early lack of
>maturity kind of messed things up for him and the Warriors
>with him crying about how Don Nelson was mean to him..lol.

Nah, Don Nelson has always been a petty passive-aggressive
bitch. He's just old and white and so everyone (apparently
you included) took his word at face value. He went DIRECTLY
to the press to slander Webber. Webber didn't do that and
was the bigger man. Plus, Webber is like 20,000 times smarter
and more articulate than Nelson.

>but he ended up having a really solid career...
>
>and he's turned into a good commentator also...

He's probably the best commentator

  

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Warren Coolidge
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47. "C-Webb had multiple tv intereviews"
In response to Reply # 44


  

          

where he emotionally told stories of how Don Nelson was yelling at him and how Vets were coming to him telling him that the Coach was talking about him....

it's very well documented....

what C-Webb accused Don Nelson of was something that no other player over the multiple decades Nellie was a coach has ever claimed....

it was probably a mix of C-Webb wanting to get out of G.State because they had him playing Center..and his lack of maturity at the time...

but that was 100% on C-Webb...


>going for Penny..... It would have been interesting to see
>>how a Shaq-C.Webb combo would have worked out....
>
>Nah, Penny-Shaq would have been fine if Penny didn't get
>hurt.
>
>Penny was a fucking dynamo before he got hurt.
>
>>one of the things I think of is how Weber's early lack of
>>maturity kind of messed things up for him and the Warriors
>>with him crying about how Don Nelson was mean to him..lol.
>
>Nah, Don Nelson has always been a petty passive-aggressive
>bitch. He's just old and white and so everyone (apparently
>you included) took his word at face value. He went DIRECTLY
>to the press to slander Webber. Webber didn't do that and
>was the bigger man. Plus, Webber is like 20,000 times smarter
>and more articulate than Nelson.

Don Nelson didn't have problems with his players before or after that.... C-Webb was childish and wanted out of Golden State...

Nellie got multiple rings as a player and 1 as a coach..so he's alright in that area...


>
>>but he ended up having a really solid career...
>>
>>and he's turned into a good commentator also...
>
>He's probably the best commentator


  

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Orbit_Established
Member since Oct 27th 2002
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49. "That was way, way later. Trust me. Nelly went to press FIRST. "
In response to Reply # 47


  

          


And people like you who don't like black men believed
the white coach

I remember it vividly

Like "Umm why is Nellie talking about how Webber "hurt him"

Bwahhaha

He was being a BITCH

Oh and Nellie NEVER won a title as a coach

----------------------------



O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

  

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Warren Coolidge
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50. "lol... I don't like Black men..right..."
In response to Reply # 49


  

          

try your weak arguments with someone else player..

after the fiasco with Golden State, Don Nelson was hurt by what happened because he had been in the league for decades and had never had his integrity questioned in that way.....like I said, it didn't happen before..it didnt' happen after, so yes he was hurt by that..

but he entered the hall of fame as the NBA winningest coach..

C-Webb was a straight punk cry baby in golden state and tried to throw a hall of fame coach under the bus to cover it up..

He didn't want to play center in Golden state..he wasn't tough enough..he didn't want to bang down on the blocks...so he got traded to the Bullets and played SMALL forward on a front line with Howard and Muersan.... but the time he got to the Kings he had matured, and again ended up with a solid career..

but in Golden State he was a soft crybaby..

  

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Orbit_Established
Member since Oct 27th 2002
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56. "Dog, Nellie didn't win SHIT as a coach for a REASON"
In response to Reply # 50


  

          


He was ALL dumbass gimmicks that NEVER worked

We liked all that Run TMC...LOL...Tim Hardaway had
MORE success when he was an old man with shot knees
playing DISCIPLINED ball with the Miami Heat...Nellies
teams were good at having lots of scorers and not doing
shit in the playoffs

Webber, on the other hand, went to the Kings as POWER
FORWARD and led an offense 30,000 times better and
more efficient than Run TMC, leading a team that gave
a DOMINANT Laker team ALL they could handle



----------------------------



O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

  

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Warren Coolidge
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58. "he's the winningest coach in NBA history..."
In response to Reply # 56


  

          

>
>He was ALL dumbass gimmicks that NEVER worked
>
>We liked all that Run TMC...LOL...Tim Hardaway had
>MORE success when he was an old man with shot knees
>playing DISCIPLINED ball with the Miami Heat...Nellies
>teams were good at having lots of scorers and not doing
>shit in the playoffs
>
>Webber, on the other hand, went to the Kings as POWER
>FORWARD and led an offense 30,000 times better and
>more efficient than Run TMC, leading a team that gave
>a DOMINANT Laker team ALL they could handle
>

and if you're gonna give props to C-Webb for not making the finals, but going to the conference finals.... Then Don Nelson's Milwakee teams were constantly 1 step away from the finals losing to DOMINANT DYNASTY squads like the Celtics and Sixers (his Bucks were the only team to win a game against the Moses Sixers)

bottom line... C-Webb didn't want to play center.... he was immature..maybe still sensative from the Time-Out the year before....but he didn't handle it properly at all and I'm sure he'd say that today.

  

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Orbit_Established
Member since Oct 27th 2002
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76. "...and never coached a team as good as Webber's Kings"
In response to Reply # 58


  

          


  

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Warren Coolidge
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81. "80-81 Bucks >> them Kings..."
In response to Reply # 76


  

          

of the starting Fives.... the Kings would only be better than the Bucks at 1 position....

PG

Bibby vs. Quinn Bucker = Buckner

SG

Christie vs. Sidney Moncrief = Moncrief..not even close

SF-

Stoyo vs. Marques Johnson = again..Marques ...again not close

C

Vlade vs. Bob Lainer = Big Bob is a hall of famer...another blow out

PF

C. Webb vs. Harvey Catchings = C. Webb of course, but Catchings wasn't a bad player at all...

6th man

Bobby Jackson vs. Junior Bridgeman = Bobby was nice, but got to give this one to Junior Bridgeman always averaged double figures when he was a 6th man..in fact he was one of the best 6th men of his era on both ends of the court...

so yeah...them Bucks were better than those Kings

  

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Orbit_Established
Member since Oct 27th 2002
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89. "Bwahahah nigga went back to 1927"
In response to Reply # 81


  

          


So Nellie basically got shittier as a coach from
1981 on

Sorry guy

Kangs

----------------------------



O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

  

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Warren Coolidge
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90. "Those Bucks were better"
In response to Reply # 89


  

          

you said Nellie never coached a better team then the Kings..

wrong..

you should call a Time Out like C-Webb..lolol..

  

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Castro
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85. "Sorry Warren...that was Nellie's fault. "
In response to Reply # 47


  

          

------------------
One Hundred.

  

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PCProductions
Member since Oct 31st 2009
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Tue Apr-22-14 01:33 PM

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48. "One of the best passing bigs ever"
In response to Reply # 0


          

And led one of the most fun teams to watch against the mammoth Lakers in a memorable series.

  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
23113 posts
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51. "RE: What is Chris Webber's legacy as a basketball player?"
In response to Reply # 0


          



I keep telling folks that he's headed to the Hall of Fame....Webber has had one of the most underrated careers of all the modern day big men...If not for a few horrible calls in that Lakers series (I know a lot of folks are saying it...But it's true...Sacramento got robbed) we would be talking about Webber in an entirely different way...

As is, his impact on the college game and his NBA career (he was one of the best PF's in the game and shitted on his peers on the daily) will get him in...

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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FILF
Member since Jun 01st 2007
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53. "Wasn't as dominant as Barkley & didn't have Malone's longivity"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

But he was as skilled & gifted as those two.

WHAT'S GOOD *****? What's REALLY good?!?!????!!! Ha HA!
http://40.media.tumblr.com/d8e2daf9f3f37244cd05436bcdf05973/tumblr_mt4qibKq4c1rgam01o1_1280.png

  

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ZooTown74
Member since May 29th 2002
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54. "One of the most talented and mercurial cats to ever play the game"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

He really was a man amongst boys in college ball

And his pro career will unfairly be tainted by the "spoiled whiney loser" tag

It was fun watching the course of his career

If only him and Dave Branding could find a way to let him come on home

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Subliminals only work for rap guys, bro

  

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isaaaa
Member since May 10th 2007
30565 posts
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60. "HANDS, amazing hands. Maybe the best ever for a BIG."
In response to Reply # 0


          


New Mantra: anti-gentrification, cheap alcohol & trying to look pretty in our twilight posting years (c) Big Reg


Get 25% off www.karmaloop.com w/ rep code JR9103 |
Nike, G-Star, Herschel, Adidas (Men's & Women's clothing)

  

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ConcreteCharlie
Member since Nov 21st 2002
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Tue Apr-22-14 10:18 PM

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67. "yup, they were very soft and very quick. melo and mailman are ..."
In response to Reply # 60


  

          

the guys i can think of in his class as far as hands go.

And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

  

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FILF
Member since Jun 01st 2007
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Tue Apr-22-14 10:51 PM

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68. "Is there such a thing as "quick hands" in bball terminology?"
In response to Reply # 67


  

          

If anything C-Webb had mitts for hands but didn't have the greatest reflex nor the quickest shooting motion. On the other hand Melo has a quick shooting motion while Mail Man had an excellent reflex.

Big Al is the current king of best hands amongst NBA big men b/c he also has mitts for hands. Kawhi probably has the best hands for wing player.......& he also has mitts for hands.

WHAT'S GOOD *****? What's REALLY good?!?!????!!! Ha HA!
http://40.media.tumblr.com/d8e2daf9f3f37244cd05436bcdf05973/tumblr_mt4qibKq4c1rgam01o1_1280.png

  

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ConcreteCharlie
Member since Nov 21st 2002
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Thu Apr-24-14 01:24 AM

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87. "sure, i think so, especially around the basket. melo's hands r def faste..."
In response to Reply # 68


  

          

And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

  

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ConcreteCharlie
Member since Nov 21st 2002
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Tue Apr-22-14 10:09 PM

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64. "J.A. Adande NAILED it in his retirement column:"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?page=Webber-080326

Why does Chris Webber's retirement matter so much to me when, in the end, the record will show he did so little?

His career can almost be defined by what he didn't accomplish: never won an NCAA championship, never played in the NBA Finals, never won a Most Valuable Player award, despite all of that talent. What will end up as the high point of his playing days -- two trips to the NCAA's championship game in two years of college -- isn't even recognized by Michigan because of a booster payout scandal. Gone. Not there. Stricken from the record.

But Webber wasn't just Seinfeld, creating plotlines around minimal moments in life. He was Sisyphus, a tragic Greek figure condemned to eternal failure.

The defining image of Webber's NBA career is in this view of Robert Horry's winning shot at the end of Game 4 of the 2002 Western Conference finals. Webber was sooo close to blocking it (here's another angle). And yet he wound up on the wrong side of history. Again.

To watch Webber's failures was endlessly more fascinating than to see most people's successes. It's because he was so much more expressive than the average player, capable of introspection at a much deeper level. He never gave you the run-of-the-mill quotes. Who else could lament a loss to the expansion-era Raptors by saying, "This shouldn't be happening. If there's a food chain in the NBA, we're supposed to be above them." Oh, and he was talented. Tall, mobile, athletic and blessed with what former teammate Rod Strickland called the "best mitts" he'd ever played with.

Webber was such a good talker that he could always seduce people -- starting with himself -- into believing that this time, it would work. He had changed, he had learned his lessons, everything would be better. From Golden State to Washington to Sacramento to Philadelphia to Detroit and back to Golden State, we heard variations of the story. He had something to offer, something to prove or, in his last two stops, something left.

I always wanted it to work out. It was that combination of intellect and potential that made Webber such an interesting subject to me. He wasn't afraid of emotions, shedding tears following devastating losses or breakthrough victories. He could pause, step back, put everything into perspective. Maybe he just said what he knew would sound good. One time, a Washington Post reporter flew to Sacramento to check on Webber after the disappointments on and off the court led the Wizards to trade him to the Kings for Mitch Richmond. Before the game, Webber told the reporter he really wasn't thinking about the Wizards anymore. Afterward, he said he was motivated every day by making the Wizards regret their decision.

Chris Webber
One of the best passing big men to ever play the game, C-Webb found much success in Sacramento.
Maybe I didn't mind the shifting because whatever he said, at least it was more interesting than 95 percent of the things you heard in a locker room. Maybe I was invested in Webber because I was with him for the whole ride.

The first time we met he was sitting in front of his locker at Michigan's Crisler Arena, just out of the shower after playing an open intrasquad scrimmage. It was Nov. 9, 1991. The date sticks with me because it was two days after Magic Johnson announced he had HIV.

It was a Saturday; I was a senior at Northwestern in Ann Arbor to cover a football game, and stuck around to take advantage of the first public opportunity to see the Fab Five play together in Michigan jerseys. There were moments during that scrimmage when Webber looked like the next version of Magic. One play blew my mind: Webber led a fast break and from the top of the key he threw a behind-the-back pass to a teammate for a dunk. You see a 6-foot-9 freshman do that -- in Johnson's home state, no less -- and you can't help but think of the Magic man.

Seventeen months later, I was in the Louisiana Superdome for the last game of the Fab Five. I was the college basketball writer at the Chicago Sun-Times, and all season long the Wolverines were the No. 1 story in college hoops. I had covered their games in Duke's Cameron Indoor Stadium, at Indiana's Assembly Hall, covered them in Illinois and Iowa and back home at Michigan. They were, it turned out, college basketball's last rock stars. Had he come along five years later, Webber would have followed the trend and gone straight to the pros. Had he come along under today's rules, Webber would have done his obligatory one year in college and then bolted to the NBA.

Instead, Webber, Juwan Howard, Jalen Rose, Jimmy King and Ray Jackson burst into our lives as rambunctious freshmen, then they all came back for another go-round as the presumptive favorites in their sophomore year. Bigger and badder than ever. They had the shorts, the swagger, the skills. They were one of the first hip-hop teams, with a soundtrack provided by the EPMD CDs constantly spinning in the locker room. At the Final Four in New Orleans, they were late for a news conference because they were mobbed in their hotel lobby and were delayed getting on the bus. When they finally rolled up on the dais (Rose greeted Steve Fisher with a casual "'Sup, Coach"), a buzz went through the room. Every time they were around it felt like an event.

The championship game against North Carolina was a great game, but the only highlight you'll see this month is Webber calling the timeout his team didn't have. You won't see his line of 23 points, 11 rebounds and three blocked shots anywhere. If Michigan had won, he would have been the Most Outstanding Player of the tournament, no doubt.

I bet you can't name the guy who did win the MOP without Googling. (I'll save you the keystrokes: Donald Williams). That's the thing. Webber and the Wolverines were far more compelling in defeat than the Tar Heels were in victory. I spent most of my time in the Michigan locker room, then felt for Webber when he went to the news conference to face the nation's media and blamed himself for losing the game.

Webber never unchained himself from the timeout gaffe the way Vanessa Williams was able to change her storyline from "disgraced former beauty queen." It became the point of reference for him. When I ran into him the summer after the 2002 seven-game loss to the Lakers and asked how he coped with it, he said, "It hurt worse than the timeout." No further explanation necessary. The benchmark for pain.

Chris Webber
C-Webb will forever be reminded of his timeout in the title game.
For years fans in NBA arenas, equipped with far more animosity than creativity, yelled, "Timeout!" or "Hey Webber, call timeout."

Once, in Madison Square Garden, with the Bullets hopelessly behind, he wearily obliged the hecklers. He looked into the stands, formed a "T" with his index fingers and mouthed the word "timeout." Then he stared at them, his expression asking if they were happy now that they got what they wanted.

I'd never ever seen a professional athlete look so vulnerable. They actually got to him. It reminded me of Lex Luthor pushing around Superman after he hung kryptonite around the Man of Steel's neck. It's disturbing to see gods become mortals.

It was the only time I actually saw his spirit broken. Usually it was his body that malfunctioned. His Achilles' heel might have been the one part of his anatomy that didn't get injured during his 15-year career.

One time the Bullets were down in Miami, and Cal Ripken came over from the Orioles' spring training camp to watch the game. I chit-chatted with him and he wondered where Webber was. I told him he had a back injury and went back to Washington to have it checked out.

"He gets hurt a lot, doesn't he?" Ripken said.

On its own, it was an innocent question. But coming from the man in the midst of a record-setting consecutive games streak, it sounded like an indictment.

Webber played in 76 games his rookie year and never matched that number again. As if by karmic retribution, he injured his shoulder on his first trip back to Golden State and it went downhill from there. He enjoyed a couple of good years as the focal point of those entertaining Kings squads at the start of the decade, but his run in Sacramento -- and the Kings' days as serious contenders -- effectively ended with a knee injury in the second round of the 2003 playoffs.

He could barely move during his time with Detroit last year, unable to provide that final push to a championship-consideration Pistons team, turning him into just another witness to the ascension of LeBron James. He looked even more out of place trying to keep up with the run-and-gun Warriors in his brief comeback this year.

I was there for his debut in the new Warriors jersey in February. It felt surreal to be interviewing him again, 16½ years after the first time at Michigan. He said he felt good, to give him four or five more games to really get it back.

One last bit of potential, unfulfilled.

And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

  

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deezy
Member since Jul 22nd 2013
1029 posts
Wed Apr-23-14 12:34 PM

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79. "LMAO. this highlight reel is crazy (youtube)"
In response to Reply # 0


          

grainy as sh*t, but peep how he clowned on dude at the :42 mark

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQ9S-DjBrgo

  

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soulfunk
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Wed Apr-23-14 12:39 PM

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80. "My goodness..."
In response to Reply # 79


  

          

  

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LegacyNS
Member since Jan 16th 2004
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Thu Apr-24-14 01:55 AM

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88. "he looked like he broke out the Carlton dance @ 1:00 - lolololol"
In response to Reply # 79


  

          


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
<---- 5....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dlgiritpmfo

=======================================

Ditch the paper, save the trees, and go mobile! Text bizcard to 32462!

  

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40thStreetBlack
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Thu Apr-24-14 11:54 AM

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92. "Great Grantland article on Chris Webber's legacy as a basketball player"
In response to Reply # 0


          

http://grantland.com/features/chris-webber-hall-fame-case/

Put Chris Webber in the Hall of Fame

In praise of a complicated, transcendent, imperfect superstar

BY ZACH LOWE ON SEPTEMBER 17, 2013


It’s a single play on a grainy YouTube clip from a game that happened 13 years ago, but it still makes you shake your head, smile, and silently mouth “wow.” The Kings are down by 13 on the road in Game 5 of their 2000 first-round series against the Lakers when A.C. Green enters the ball to Shaquille O’Neal on the left block and cuts across the baseline, clearing the way for another grisly Shaq post-up.

And then it happens: Green’s man, Chris Webber, stops trailing Green, reaches out his giant right hand, swipes the ball clean from Shaq mid-dribble, and takes off down the court. The Kings’ point guard, Jason Williams, understands Webber is the rare big man capable of leading a fast break, and so instead of demanding the ball, Williams streaks to the right sideline — filling that side as Peja Stojakovic darts to the left wing, a textbook three-on-two. Webber is in full flight just before half court when he grips the ball with his right hand, extends it toward Williams on his right, turns his head that way, and then yanks the ball back across his body for a 30-foot diagonal bounce pass that hits Stojakovic in stride just behind the 3-point arc for an open triple.

It was an audacious, tradition-shattering play, executed with little regard for situation or score. Webber’s career is filled with thousands of such plays. They combined showmanship with a sophisticated understanding of how the sport works. Webber grasped the value of a hard push or a risky outlet pass — of how getting the ball up the court quickly could scramble a defense and generate open looks, even when no obvious three-on-two or two-on-one was available at the start. And he internalized the notion of passing up a good shot to hunt a great one. He wasn’t going to force a jump hook from the post or drive from the elbow if he thought one of those cutters whirring around the floor as he palmed the ball over his head would come open for a 3-pointer or a layup. He was stylistically mesmerizing, only his style had substance.

He is, by some measures, the greatest passing big man in the history of the sport. He averaged 4.2 assists per game over his 15-year career, and he assisted on 20.2 percent of his teams’ baskets while on the court — an outrageous number for a true power forward. Of all players listed at 6-foot-9 or taller, only three assisted on a larger percentage of hoops: Larry Bird, Toni Kukoc, and Alvan Adams. That passing ability will be the starting point in evaluating Webber’s Hall of Fame case as he becomes eligible for the first time in 2014. And it’s clear already, in talking to dozens of NBA thinkers and evaluating Webber’s case on my own, that this will be one of the thornier Springfield cases of our time — maybe the thorniest. And, on a personal note, that’s what makes it so much fun to talk about. The chief of this site has jokingly called me “Spock,” a good-natured poke at my unpleasant self-discipline in shoving all emotion aside when judging NBA things.

This project was appealing because I just couldn’t manage that emotional asceticism in Webber’s case. I loved Webber’s game. I got into arguments with my dad — actual arguments, with real tension and cries of “You don’t get it!” — about the utility of Webber’s behind-the-back passes. I imitated the sideways violence of his dunks on my Nerf hoop — the way he’d extend his right arm way out to his side and rip it horizontally back toward the rim. I dug the mean mug, probably the greatest mean mug ever. I aimed for the sudden ferocity of his baseline spin move from the left block, a piece of hoops ballet, often preceded by a Jordanesque shoulder flinch, which left bulkier defenders standing befuddled as Webber scooted by for a power dunk from directly under the rim. This wasn’t just an All-Star. It was an All-Star who added both art and a sneering, cool style. How many guys did that? How many big guys ever did that? How could he not make the same Hall of Fame that has Ralph Sampson, Jamaal Wilkes, K.C. Jones, and other objectively inferior players?

But it’s amazing what happens to fanboy enthusiasm once you start digging and talking to insiders all over the league. There is an angry, fundamental division about Webber, and a lot of it starts with the perception of his passing ability. For his supporters, those passes symbolize a team-first brilliance that helped redefine what big men could and should do; several people, including current and former GMs, used the word “revolutionize” in describing Webber’s impact on the power forward position. That might be a stretch, considering that two of Webber’s power forward contemporaries, Kevin Garnett and Dirk Nowitzki, probably had an equal or even larger impact in broadening the big man skill set.

But Webber was part of that trailblazing trio, and for a two-season window from 2000 to 2002 — as Webber entered his prime, and before Garnett and Nowitzki hit theirs — Webber had a real claim to the “Best Power Forward Alive” throne.1 Webber in those years nudged his Player Efficiency Rating into the 23-25 range, almost mandatory for a big man Hall of Fame candidate, and racked up enough counting numbers to put himself in historically elite territory. Here is the total list of players who piled up at least 17,000 points and 8,000 rebounds, while averaging at least four assists per game with a career PER above 20: Wilt Chamberlain, Elgin Baylor, Bird, and Webber. There’s some unfair cherry-picking there, since Webber barely exceeds all those thresholds. But cutting the criteria still produces a ridiculously elite list of just 11 guys, all current or future Hall of Famers — plus Webber.2

Thirty-two players have logged at least 30,000 NBA minutes and kept their career PERs at about 20.5. Twenty are in the Hall of Fame. At least eight others are locks. Two of the remaining four are Allen Iverson and Tracy McGrady, both good bets to get in. That leaves two players. One of them is Webber. We’ll talk about the other guy later.

Webber Webber isn’t a surefire candidate. He doesn’t have a ring (we’ll get to this, Sacto fans) as he approaches an opaque voting body that overvalues ringzzz. He never had a no-brainer MVP-type season with a PER in the mid/high-20s,3 in part because Webber was never a very efficient shooter for a big man. And a devastating knee injury in the 2003 playoffs effectively ended Webber’s prime and prematurely aged him into a lead-footed jump-shooter — a role he was never equipped to play as well as Nowitzki and Garnett. But it’s clear he has the raw numbers to get in, especially given the precedent. And that does not even factor in Webber’s college play, which could cut both ways. He was the best player on an iconic team that made back-to-back title games, but the University of Michigan had to erase those wins (among other penalties) after revelations that Webber and other players took huge sums of money from a booster. Webber later pleaded guilty to criminal contempt of court in connection with the matter, and voters who care about maintaining the faux-veneer of amateurism surrounding college sports might hold that against him.

For those who get queasy about the idea of Webber in Springfield, the highlight passes represent something else: the empty flash of a front-running star who did not want the ball, and the responsibility that came with it, in crunch time. There is also a related line of thinking that Webber never embraced the grittier aspects of winning basketball — that he was a lazy screen-setter, a lollygagger on transition defense, a lesser defender than he should have been, and an overrated rebounder who couldn’t snag highly contested boards.

Some of this is based in hard truth. Webber’s career PER declined two full points in the postseason. He shot just 44 percent combined over 13 of his highest-leverage games — a dozen elimination games, and the Infamous Game 6 loss to the Lakers in the 2002 conference finals. The numbers and the video4 show he recalibrated his game under harsh playoff stress to feature slightly more passing and less scoring. He averaged 15 field goal attempts per 36 minutes in those games, between four and five fewer than he averaged in the regular season over his prime, and his usage rate fell from about the 30 percent range down to about 24 percent in those 13 games.5 He shot just 36-of-60 from the foul line over those 13 games, 60 percent shooting on the equivalent of just four free throws per 36 minutes — low for an elite scoring big man, and about two fewer attempts than Webber averaged at his peak.

His foul shooting was clearly a problem, and at times impacted both Webber’s decision-making and Rick Adelman’s play calling during Webber’s years in Sacramento. He was 2-of-5 in Game 4 against Utah in 1999, when the no. 7–seeded Kings could have closed out the Jazz. The bricks included a huge miss in the last two minutes, and Adelman responded by calling four straight post-ups for Vlade Divac down the stretch.

He went a disastrous 1-of-4 from the line in the decisive Game 5 against Utah, and he was mostly unable to exploit the much smaller Bryon Russell on the block. The entire Kings team went cold from the stripe against L.A. two years later, and Webber was inconsistent in crunch time attacking Robert Horry on the block.6

It isn’t quite right to say Webber shied away from shooting during the largest games. He went 4-of-7 from the floor in the fourth quarter (with zero free throws) in the Infamous Game 6 in 2002, and he hit a monster jump hook over Horry with just over a minute left to bring the Kings within one. And though my memory had Webber freezing late in Game 7 of that series, not even looking toward the rim, that turned out to be sort of wrong; Webber shot 2-of-9 over the fourth quarter and overtime of that game, and while the shooting percentage is ugly, there’s no evidence Webber was actively reluctant to shoot during the biggest moments of his career.

But there was a lack of aggression to his game in some of those moments. It’s undeniable, even if you wish not to see it. He was content to fling the ball around from the elbow, shooting jumpers, pitching to Mike Bibby out of the pick-and-roll, or working a give-and-go with the ultra-aggressive Bobby Jackson. Webber had a beautiful face-up driving game, one that usually featured decisive right-to-left spin moves and artful finishes. But when he drove in these late moments, toward the behemoth Shaq, he’d pick the ball up early, rise in the air, and scan the court in a panic for an open player.

The gatekeepers of Springfield consider few sins worse than being afraid to shoot in decisive moments of big games. That perception exists around Webber, and it’s not entirely wrong.

But it’s partly wrong, and sometimes emphatically wrong. For one, Webber passing the ball was not a de facto bad thing. The Kings built their offense around the passing of Webber and Divac, and they almost always put Webber in positions that produced both scoring chances and natural passing angles. He was brilliant at reading defenses two steps ahead, both from the elbow and from the post, where he drew constant double-teams despite sometimes struggling against defenders who could match his strength. His inside-out passing started a lot of chain reactions that led to open 3s; the hockey assist stat might cement Webber as the best passing big man ever, if we had access to it.

These were not instances of an inept and fearful player flinging hopeless hot potatoes. If Webber was going to be a tad gun-shy, it at least meant he’d fall back on his best skill, and the Kings always put him in the best position from which to do that. “It’s not fair to say he shied away,” says Jon Barry, the ESPN analyst who played with Webber for three seasons in Sacramento. “He was a great passer, and he stayed within the confines of what we were doing.”

“To whatever extent there may have been some jitters,” says Geoff Petrie, the GM who brought Webber to Sacramento, “I really think he overcame that. The thing about Chris and guys like him is that they have such a high skill level, and so much talent in so many areas, that people knock them when they don’t necessarily reach what people think of as their potential.”

And there were other giant games in which Webber rose to the moment. They exist, on record, if folks choose to unearth them. Too much of the shouting about a player’s “clutch” performance comes without sufficient care or nuance. During the nadir of anti-LeBron hysteria, things reached a point at which any miss in the last 30 seconds would immediately erase a positive thing James had done less than a minute earlier. Old playoff buzzer-beaters, monstrous overtime performances, and crazy in-game scoring streaks were forgotten because they didn’t fit the preferred narrative. It was as if they’d never happened.

Webber had some monster playoff moments. I swear, it’s true! He carried the Kings down the stretch of Game 1 against the 2001 Lakers, a juggernaut that lost only a single playoff game; the Kings played through him on the block on nearly every crunch-time possession, and he responded with two late baskets and a 2-of-2 trip to the line en route to a 34-point masterpiece — in a loss. He seemed to be the only King willing to shoot for much of the winner-take-all Game 5 against the Lakers in 2000, to the point that Danny Ainge, calling the game, screamed repeatedly that Webber was “carrying them” — even as Webber shot poorly.7

At one point during the Infamous Game 6, Webber was 6-of-8 from the field and the rest of the Kings were a combined 9-of-30; the Lakers may have blown the Kings out of the building in that game, rendering shady officiating unnecessary, had Webber not shown up and caught fire. Remember: That team should have won the title. Had they done so, this is an entirely different conversation. Webber would likely be a shoo-in, the centerpiece of a champion that played some of the most visually pleasing basketball in recent NBA history. “We were the envy of the country for five years there,” says the legendary Pete Carril, the longtime Princeton head coach and Kings assistant during the team’s heyday.

Look, Webber didn’t raise his overall level on offense during the postseason, and his very best teams dropped off on offense a hair more than we’d expect, even given the heightened competition, per NBA.com. But it’s not as if he cowered.

Webber If you’re going to point to postseason shortcomings, you might do better to look at the other end of the floor. Webber was never a great defender, despite a prodigious skill set — fast feet, a faster mind, and some solid rim protection ability. He reminds a bit of present-day Josh Smith, in terms of both his fundamentals and a tendency toward shortcuts. He would stand straight up against the pick-and-roll instead of getting into a proper stance, and he loved to reach with his arms — both at point guards dribbling around him, and into passing lanes — instead of sliding around to maintain proper position. He could get steals that way, with those magnet hands, but he never made himself the force he probably should have been.

“He loved to play defense with his hands,” Petrie says. “And honestly, he may have relied on that a little too much.”

He’s part of the reason the Kings, a so-so rebounding team, got absolutely shredded on the glass during the playoffs. Webber gobbled up a ton of rebounds, even leading the league once, but he did so relying on his athleticism and his hands. He liked to box out territory rather than individual opponents, and he was not active in pursuing contested rebounds outside of his area. If he shifted away from ideal rebounding position for some purpose — to double-team Shaq, or to contest a jump shot — he was not going to scamper back into the fray.

Webber for his career rebounded about 21 percent of opponent misses in the regular season, and during his best seasons, he reached into the 22-24 percent range. Those are above-average marks for a power forward. In the playoffs, he rebounded only 17.9 percent of opponent misses, below average for a power forward, let alone one of Webber’s ability. The difference might amount to two or three rebounds per game on a bad night, but an otherwise vulnerable rebounding team could not afford that kind of drop-off. The Kings recorded sub-70 percent defensive rebounding rates in all three of the early 2000s playoff series against the Lakers — rates that would have been dead last, or very close to it, in each of those seasons.

He was also prone to some very basic silliness in big moments. He committed an awful traveling violation on a fast break in the Infamous Game 6 while attempting an airborne behind-the-back pass for no reason.8 He seemed to not understand the illegal defense rule at times. There were some dumb technicals. This is the downside of the showmanship and the scowl.

Overall, it’s a spotty case, especially since that knee injury robbed Webber of the chance to cross some of the stat thresholds that nearly guarantee entry. A handful of players are going to retire soon with huge counting stats — Shawn Marion, Jason Terry, Antawn Jamison, Richard Hamilton, Jerry Stackhouse, Prof. Andre Miller — but none pass the Hall of Fame smell test, in part because they never had a two- or three-year peak as glorious as Webber’s.

The best contemporary comparable might be Elton Brand, and it’s an interesting comparison, because Brand doesn’t appear to pass the Hall of Fame sniff test — at least not yet. But Brand and Webber have eerily similar career numbers. Brand is about 900 total points behind Webber, but has snagged nearly 400 more rebounds in about 2,000 more regular-season minutes. Brand can’t touch Webber as a passer, but he has been a more efficient overall scorer, thanks to a slightly higher field goal percentage and much better (and more prolific) foul shooting. Like Webber, his PER crested in the 23-24 range, rather than in the 26-28 range that ensures enshrinement, and he hit those high marks for only a few seasons. They are about equal as rebounders, and Brand has probably been the more willing and impactful overall defender. Both suffered devastating mid-career injuries that robbed them of their killer explosiveness too soon.

Remember those 32 players in the 30,000 minutes/20.5 PER club I made up? Brand is the 32nd guy.

But people in and out of the league don’t consider Brand a Hall of Famer. That might be because he has labored mostly for bad and mediocre teams; he has played in only 30 postseason games, compared to 80 for Webber. It might also be because Brand’s workmanlike game didn’t make the same stylistic imprint on the sport as Webber’s all-around, all-court brilliance. How much should that matter?

The Hall’s own standards say Webber probably belongs. But nobody has a firm grasp on what standards the Hall’s series of voting committees actually use, and the Hall keeps the rotating members of those committees anonymous. Frustration over this lack of transparency is near a breaking point. Almost everyone I talked to threw their hands in the air over Hall criteria, and many sounded the popular call for an NBA-only Hall of Fame that would bring more focused coherence to the evaluation process.

But at this point, I’d say Webber’s best-case scenario is the same as those of Bernard King, Artis Gilmore, and others with only semi-prolific career numbers and limited/zero “rings” history — a long, long wait for enshrinement. But there’s a very real chance Webber is left out entirely; we haven’t even addressed the distaste he left behind early in his career in Golden State and Washington, and then later in Philadelphia.9 If Webber does get shut out, I hope it’s because voters have taken the time to really scrutinize his career instead of relying on hollow, one-sentence clichés.

___________________

Mar-A-Lago delenda est

  

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