"Is there such a thing as good point guard defense these days?"
I can't think of a guy there right now outside of Bledsoe who is legitimately a great defender at the position. And Bledsoe is a guy who is stronger than everyone else, as quick as anyone, and only has to play 15 minutes a game without full playmaking responsibilities (Crawford, Odom, and Hill help him out there). CP3 keeps getting on All-D teams despite the he's practically a sieve letting guys to the bucket, though he does get a lot of steals which is valuable. Guys like Rose and Westbrook have all the ability to be great defenders but have a ton of offensive responsibility on the other end and don't give the same value on D.
It seems you pretty much get credit for not being outright bad like the Nash's and Calderon's of the world. Am I right?
6. "And Bradley is better." In response to Reply # 2
Avery plays more of the 2 on offense but he defends the PG position.
Point guards are going to "exposed" more because they are constantly defending the point of attack. Also, I think every point guard has games/plays where they take breaks. Most guys can't run the team and commit 100% to defense and have enough left for a full 82 game season. (Nobody is more transparent on the on/off games than Rondo.)
But, yeah, Chris Paul is box score elite but when you watch games, he's seems fairly average. Defense nowadays in general is tough to judge because it is such a team effort. Jeff Green does some great work guarding his man but he's often out of position for the team D, which is why Doc often goes with Brandon Bass in crunch time.
7. "I love Russy as much as anyone but he does not hustle every play on D" In response to Reply # 3
He's been my boy since we went to college together but he definitely saves his energy on that side of the ball. I thought he'd be Gary Payton-ish on D after I saw him shut down OJ Mayo twice in college (while not being nearly as good on offense) but his offensive game took off and his D is pretty average given his ability.
9. "lol thats clearly not true" In response to Reply # 3
------------------------- “The other dude after me didn’t help my case. It was just like…crazy nigga factory going on.” Dre makes no apologies for his own eccentricities. “I was young, and searching, trying to find myself,” he says. “Never did.”-- Andre B
10. "Conley/George Hill are the only true starting PG that plays lock down D" In response to Reply # 4
Conley put the clamps on Top5 when the 1st round upset happened in 2011. The rest are either ball hawks or 2 guards that happen to check PGs (ala Thabo/Bradley). Russy/Wall are too dumb to ever play good team defense but they do occasionally display great individual D based on their athleticism. DRose might be an elite defender if he didn't have to expand as much energy running the offense.
Frank Longo Member since Nov 18th 2003 86672 posts
Tue Mar-05-13 01:51 AM
5. "Not really, no." In response to Reply # 0 Tue Mar-05-13 01:53 AM by Frank Longo
Most of the better defenders at the point are just good at anticipating the passing lanes and keeping their hands active and disruptive.
Which, really, isn't that bad, in the grand scheme of things. Some turnovers leading to baskets can make up for the possessions when you let the other guy in the lane and hoped your big would dissuade him. It's just hard as shit for someone likely to be one of the smaller guys on the court to both facilitate the offense on every play and carry the burden of shutting down their facilitator every play on defense. Some of the better defenders can keep them on their toes... but "shut down" guys? Nah.
There aren't really "stoppers" at the point in college or the pros very often anymore. That job falls to 2 guards who sometimes guard the other team's point if the occasion calls for it.
Bledsoe's probably the closest. His commitment to defense and his sheer length make him a nightmare. Though I do wonder if he'd play defense as hard as he does if he was a 35+ minute per night starter... it's admittedly easier to focus on defense when the burden of offense isn't on you and you're brought in especially to defend.
8. "True these guys need to stay in the game" In response to Reply # 5
>It's just hard as shit for >someone likely to be one of the smaller guys on the court to >both facilitate the offense on every play and carry the burden >of shutting down their facilitator every play on defense.
The dropoff between most teams' starting PG and their backup is pretty steep, plus unlike every other position they have the ball in their hand almost every play. No use in the Chris Paul's and Tony Parker's of the world picking up quick fouls on D, in fact I rarely see those guys in actual foul trouble.
25. "Yeah that's exactly right. " In response to Reply # 11
I mean you have to spend all game guarding the ball handler, being hit by screens, constantly moving laterally and being out in the open court where it's REALLY easy to pick up fouls if you touch them. I'm pretty short (5'10") so whenever I'm on court thats the role and really the best you can do is stay in front and if they get by hope that there is someone waiting. Reaching in and fouling isn't an option.
12. "There are hardly any elite perimeter defenders anymore" In response to Reply # 0
In addition to som e great points in this post like Longo and Truth pointing out the no handcheck rules and their effects...
A big thing is how teams run offenses now. The league has shifted from strict iso to iso with a pick and roll. Pick and rolls are extremely hard for guys to defend on the perimeter.
When you look at that pg point of attack: -When a pg gets picked he has to figure out left/right from the top of the circle with not forced boundaries like sidelines or baselines.
-In addition to that, depending on who he's guarding he has to decide whether he's going to exert extra energy to fight over or through a pick set by a 7ft 250 lb man, or go underneath and allow a deent shooter to take the jumpshot.
-A good pick will put a defender a half step to 1.5 steps behind the man they're guarding, so then you have to expend energy and try to attempt to catch up to a guy who is probably already the quickest player on the team.
-then in cases of guys like Kyrie and Cp3 you have guys who even if you expend all that energy to catch up and get a hand near them (with help D) they do an incredible job of making shots in traffic.
Wing players can be a little better because theyre' 1) taller/have more length and size to fight through screens and get a hand up 2) generally more traditionally athletic (they got them springs--hi Basa) 3) they can force guys to the baseline side +help or force them to the middle +help--so there are some natural boundaries that shut off 1 option for the ballhnadler.
When A guy like Bron catches the ball up top and runs PNR option---its almost impossible to stop. On the flip side Bron can be an elite defender because he has a great combination of Height (to get back in the picture if he's beat), Size (to just blow up screens), athleticism, (to stay close enough to his man and or catch up) + a lot of times he's guarding wings on a side and doesnt have to deal with the point of attack up top (though because of all the aformentioned attributes he's good at those things too). He is also able to go under picks and still challenge shots pretty well because of his size and explosiveness.
--- "though time has passed, im still the future" (c) black thought
15. "most of the good points have been made already" In response to Reply # 0
i'll just add that part of great defense is ball denial. Only players that can guard pg and play ball denial are specialists that don't play 30+ a night and don't run their teams offense.
Any pg that gives effort, plays smart and gets a few turnovers here and there is really the best you are going to get.
-The Knicks’ coaching search still includes a lone frontrunner, Kurt Rambis, whose qualifications for the position include a strong relationship with Jackson and a willingness to take the job.
17. "Gary payton and derek harper come to mind." In response to Reply # 16
-The Knicks’ coaching search still includes a lone frontrunner, Kurt Rambis, whose qualifications for the position include a strong relationship with Jackson and a willingness to take the job.
20. "payton was a HOF player" In response to Reply # 17
harper mugged people.
i'm gonna go with transcendent talent and rule-changes (which people have said) explaining why we don't have a payton or a harper.
i also wonder if there is a generational thing. an off the top of the head hypothesis: in the mid 2000s, the need defender was a wing defender, not a PG stopper (think Bruce Bowen). now, PGs are much more influential to team offenses than before, but the reaction--building a defensive stopper at PG--hasn't caught up. Plus, you don't want to cripple your offense for the sake of your defense. so you see the PG stopper playing as a 2 guard (Bradley) so the PG can still run an elite offense on the other end of the court.
----------- It's only funny till someone gets mad. Then it's hilarious.
23. "not really he was a horrible defender...if your pg is a horrible" In response to Reply # 22
defender, your whole defense will break down over and over and over again.
alot of that is on d'antoni though. We are already seeing Stoudemire play much smarter on defense.
Back to nash though, the fact that he was the beast that he was on offense and d'antoni was okay with them being poor on defense allowed Phx to prosper.
but lets not pretend that nash wasn't one of the worst defensive pgs in the league.
-The Knicks’ coaching search still includes a lone frontrunner, Kurt Rambis, whose qualifications for the position include a strong relationship with Jackson and a willingness to take the job.
27. "Nash started in the late 90s" In response to Reply # 22
an era when defense was still being played regularly.
------------------------- “The other dude after me didn’t help my case. It was just like…crazy nigga factory going on.” Dre makes no apologies for his own eccentricities. “I was young, and searching, trying to find myself,” he says. “Never did.”-- Andre B
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