and yeah, look -- this story seems to be only tangentially related to sports, but I still think it's interesting. below is the part I think is interesting, the rest I think is Chuck Klosterman over-explaining simple things as is his wont.

I also think Royce White is on to something in the below, but I also think it's stupid to say "fear," which I would identify as the underlying factor in many of these illnesses he discusses, is a disability on par with a physical injury. it just isn't. it's fear. and yeah some people deal with fear better, some people not so well, but I'm not honestly comfortable with conflating a person with debilitating fear as being equivalent to a brain damaged quadreplegic, for example. so that's my two cents.

_____________________________________________________________________

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/8890734/chuck-klosterman-royce-white

I spoke to White last Wednesday, the night after his appearance on Real Sports debuted. Before examining anything else, I want to cut straight to the most interesting part of our conversation, which happened within the first 10 minutes of dialogue. Here are the circumstances: I'd just landed in Houston and driven to my hotel downtown. At 4:56 p.m., I get a text from White, instructing me to meet him at the Cheesecake Factory near First Colony Mall, a shopping complex in Sugar Land, Texas (roughly 45 minutes away on US-59), at 5:50. When I get there, he's seated on the outside patio with two associates; one is a large fellow who declines to give his name ("That's irrelevant," he says when asked) and the other is someone named Bryant (who's wearing a faux-vintage 1956 letterman's jacket and constantly checking his phone). The roles these individuals play are nebulous. The 6-foot-8 White is relaxed. He's wearing a backward Obey Propaganda hat, a watch the size of a clock, and shoes that resemble (and may actually function as) house slippers. He's built like a double helix of panther sinew — whenever he adjusts his left arm, the biceps bulges so dramatically that it's distracting. We make no chitchat. We immediately start talking about all the things we're expected to talk about. I mention a statistic: According to the National Institute of Mental Health, 26 percent of Americans over the age of 18 suffer from a diagnosable mental disorder in any given year. I ask White if he thinks that stat carries over into the NBA. This was the subsequent interaction (make sure you read all the way to the end, when the conversation shifts unexpectedly):

--Do you believe 26 percent of the league is dealing with a mental illness, or does mental illness prompt those dealing with it to self-select themselves out of the pool? Are you the rare exception who got drafted?

The amount of NBA players with mental health disorders is way over 26 percent. My suggestion would be to ask David Stern how many players in the league he thinks have a marijuana problem. Whatever number he gives you, that's the number with mental illness. A chemical imbalance is a mental illness.

--So, wait … if somebody has a drinking problem, is that —

That's a mental illness. A gambling addiction is a mental illness. Addiction is a mental illness.

--Well, then what's the lowest level of mental illness? What is the least problematic behavior that still suggests a mental illness?

The reality is that you can't black-and-white it, no matter how much you want to. You have to be OK with it being gray. There is no end or beginning. It's more individualistic. If someone tears a ligament, there is a grade for its severity. But there's no grade with mental illness. It all has to do with the person and their environment and how they are affected by that environment.

--OK, I get that. But you classify a gambling addiction as a mental illness. Gambling is incredibly common among hypercompetitive people. The NBA is filled with hypercompetitive people. So wouldn't this mean that —

Here's an even tougher thing that we're just starting to uncover: How many people don't have a mental illness? But that's what we don't want to talk about.

--Why wouldn't we want to talk about that?

Because that would mean the majority is mentally ill, and that we should base all our policies around the idea of supporting the mentally ill. Because they're the majority of people. But if we keep thinking of them as a minority, we can say, "You stay over there and deal with your problems over there."

OK, just so I get this right: You're arguing that most Americans have a mental illness.

Exactly. That's definitely correct.

--But — if that's true — wouldn't that mean "mental illness" is just a normative condition? That it's just how people are?

That doesn't make it normal. This is based on science. If there was a flu epidemic, and 60 percent of the country had the flu, it wouldn't make it normal … the problem is growing, and it's growing because there's a subtle war — in America, and in the world — between business and health. It's no secret that 2 percent of the human population controls all the wealth and the resources, and the other 98 percent struggle their whole life to try and attain it. Right? And what ends up happening is that the 2 percent leave the 98 percent to struggle and struggle and struggle, and they eventually build up these stresses and conditions.

--So … this is about late capitalism?

Definitely. Definitely.

___________

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The article is great, by the way. This description of White is perfect: "There are times when White seems like a brilliant ninth-grader who just wrote a research paper on mental illness and can't stop talking about it. He's arrogant, and perhaps not as wise as he believes himself to be. But sometimes he offers genuine insight into the mediated discomfort of modernity."

Anyway, here's more of the convo:

***

What if stress is just part of it?

What does that mean, "It's just part of it"? That's like saying people getting killed is just part of war.

But people getting killed is part of war. That's the downside of war.

It doesn't have to be, though. We choose that. When you say, "That's just part of it," it implies that this is natural. Volcanoes don't kill human beings. Volcanoes kill human beings because human beings build houses right next to them.

Yes. But when I ask, "What if stress is just part of it?" I'm really asking, "What if it's just part of the choice that society has made?" It may be problematic, but what if we've all agreed that this problematic thing is part of the experience of being involved in a rarefied profession?

That's fine. But don't act like this wasn't a choice.

So what would you have done if, upon drafting you, the Rockets had said this: "Look — this is going to be hard for you. It might, in fact, be detrimental. But that is just part of competing at this sport at this level."

You can't do that, though. You can't discriminate against somebody, because that's ADA6 law. People say I'm getting special treatment, but it's the NBA who wants special treatment. They want to say they're this rarefied profession where laws don't apply. But ADA law is federal. I've always said the NBA should have a mental health policy. I didn't know they didn't have one, until I got drafted. But the NCAA doesn't have one, either … I had to sit my first year at Iowa State, because there was no mental health protocol. I transferred on the basis of mental health issues. Both my doctor and my psychiatrist wrote letters to the NCAA that said my staying at Minnesota would not be healthy, because I'd just been through a three-month case where I was targeted by police for a crime I was not guilty of, and that I needed a fresh start. Because I have a mental illness. But the NCAA denied my waiver.

What was the NCAA's argument?

They didn't really have one. They said it was my choice to transfer.

... Because White sees mental illness everywhere, his goal as an activist is the creation of free mental health clinics in every major urban area, modeled after the system currently used by Planned Parenthood. It's a valid idea, particularly if you accept White's insistence that pretty much everyone needs help. We talk about his cultural heroes, and he detects shades of mental illness in all of them: John Lennon, Frank Sinatra, Michael Jordan. " definitely had a mental illness," he argues. "He was obsessed. He was obsessed with being great. Now, is that bad? It would be, if everybody else wasn't already telling him that he was." His dedication to this cause is sincere; he tells me he's "literally willing to die" for human welfare. I don't doubt that he would jeopardize his career over this principle, and when he casually notes that basketball does not "define" who he is, it doesn't sound like clichéd posturing. This is a man who wants his cultural footprint to be deep. I ask how he felt when the Real Sports reporter (Bernie Goldberg, who is also a correspondent for Fox's The O'Reilly Factor) referred to him as either courageous or "insufferable." White's initial response was confusion. His real response was unflinching.

"I think it's a very true statement. At the end of the day, we all stand on one side of a line, and it's always going to be opposed by somebody else," he says. And then he really goes to the rack. "I don't like to compare myself to other great people.8 But I'm sure Gandhi was insufferable to some people. Martin Luther King was insufferable. JFK was certainly insufferable. Galileo was insufferable. It's always tough to tolerate people who say the things that other people don't want to say."

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if hes THIS crazy just...let his ass go


do or die

or some shit...

------------------------------------
2019 CABG Survivor

2016 OK Survivor Champion

be about it or be without it

RIP GOATs

because really that reveals the entire crux of why "mental illness" is such a problematic term to begin with, and why it's dangerous to lend it the same gravitas as ACTUAL, PHYSICALLY VERIFIABLE, SCIENTIFICALLY IRREFUTABLE disabilities a person can suffer from.

yeah, MJ was obsessed -- basically every article about MJ since my goddamn middle school years have honed in on his obsessiveness. but is that a *bad* thing? it made him a stunning competitor and role model to millions, a black owner of an NBA team, and a major engine of the astronomical growth of what many of us here consider one of the greatest sports on the planet.

so where's the downside in his mental illness? what do we gain by calling Air Jordan "sick"?

___________

HOPE!
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If so many players in the league have a mental illness, yet they could all show up every night...

Not to mention the fact that it's pretty insulting to compared people who are stressed to people who are mentally ill. It hurts some of the good will he's likely built up in the mental illness community.

Same for his comment where he says he doesn't care about other people or setting standards, he just personally wants a doctor for himself.

Dude simply can't keep an argument straight.

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Yup she was a psychology grad student and yup she was crazy. She would try to point out mental illness on everyone and blame nearly everything on some mental illness

I'm definitely on the side that mental health issues are underappreciated and undertreated in this country, but at what point are you legitimately sick and at what point are you just being an asshole? If everyone out there has some mental illness, then why can most of them show up at their jobs and be a functioning part of society? At what point does it become legitimately debilitating and at what point are you just using it as a crutch?

The part that drives me crazy with Royce is that he simply doesn't understand that his cause would go SO MUCH FURTHER if he just showed up to work and balled out. If you can show the general public that hey, I got a problem, but I can still show up and contribute something positive, that goes way way further in destigmatizing mental illness. Instead you're gonna leave a bunch of people thinking, hey, if this dude is mentally ill, maybe we can't really trust him at all and just further back the cause into the corner.

a big part of any important movement is people seeking changes and justice in their own lives.

but he doesn't really give a damn about the big picture other than it being an interesting topic of conversation, which is why it reads like he hasn't really thought it through.

i can't say he's described a symptom yet that i haven't experienced in my own life. and i'd certainly be grateful if people around me, my employer, and the world at large were more accepting and accommodating to my anxieties. so if his movement gets moving, great. but i also recognize that, on the balance (and like royce), i have things pretty good.

i can't really stomach talking about what the 2% and owners need to do without some hint that they're taking a hard look at their own goals and place in the world. we hear and scoff at this kind of privileged twenty-something douchebaggery all the time. this is just the first time i can remember seeing it from an nba player.

and planned parenthood sometimes offers mental health services.

the rest of it just keeps inching my impressions on him toward the negative though.

close to him needs to point out the problems with some of his arguments...

like his response to the Rockets hypothetically saying to him "Hey...life in the nba is stressful".... then White said that would be discrimination.

Pointing out to someone that life is stressful is discrimination and a violation of law??? come on dude.

and him rejecting the idea that stress is simply a part of life is again showing how simply wrong this guy is about the issue.

the existence of stresss .......an individual's ability to deal with stress are 2 different things.

Stress is a constant part of life...... one's ability to deal with stress is unique to an individual and is differen in different people...

this guy is lumping his ability or inability to handle stress in with the mere existance of stress in the world....

the more I hear from and about this dude the more he sounds like a guy trying to take advantage of a situation.

>Pointing out to someone that life is stressful is
>discrimination and a violation of law??? come on dude.

the ADA is a very important piece of legislation that has quietly been an extremely positive transformative force in our modern society. I will *not* have that shit undermined by some people that just don't like working.

like I'm with dude on making critiques of Late Capitalism -- cool, get your socialist on player -- but fuck him for trying to say an individual as physically gifted (and ultimately most likely mentally as well, because intelligence and mental illness like he describes seem to have a correlation) needs federal protection.

that's crap and does more harm than good for the Cause, no doubt about it.

___________

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as stressful an experience as human beings have......child birth.

You're essence is from stress...

<---https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01DL9AVTQ

capitalism. I'm interested.

--

"You can't beat white people. You can only knock them out."

___________

HOPE!
https://vine.co/v/i7JjIBL3Qix
https://vine.co/v/i7JtqEFwxDu

*Jews you*

"this is okp tho, reading is completely optional" (c) desus

Proceed with caution. I am overtly racist.

<-- In Pigpen we trust

i dont get it

------------------------------------
2019 CABG Survivor

2016 OK Survivor Champion

be about it or be without it

RIP GOATs

and if it's persistent it should be treated like a physical disability
maybe it's comparable to epilepsy?
dude at my gig developed anxiety disorder after he got chumped by this indian dude (was as funny as it sounds)
and he literally couldn't move when it triggered
had to keep going to the ER cause he couldn't swallow, all kind of crazy shit

(didn't read the article but assuming he made a straight comparison)

~~~~~~

and yes, I understand that there are different degrees of anxiety disorder and Royce White might very well be suffering from a more severe form of it, but it's not like pointing out performing in the NBA can be stressful is really a novel insight.

blindness towards mental illness? sure, that's a worthwhile topic to discuss.
but grandstanding b/c the job is tough is only valid up to a point (and this dude seems to be going pretty damn far past that point)

___________

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looking like 35 yr old anthony mason

http://youtu.be/zFlEbaSTSWI

---
"though time has passed, im still the future" (c) black thought

<---https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01DL9AVTQ

especially when you just joined the team the day before.

*Jews you*

"this is okp tho, reading is completely optional" (c) desus

Proceed with caution. I am overtly racist.

<-- In Pigpen we trust

<---https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01DL9AVTQ

with his passing in the game.

*Jews you*

"this is okp tho, reading is completely optional" (c) desus

Proceed with caution. I am overtly racist.

<-- In Pigpen we trust

But needs the ball in his hands to be effective.

And not worth the headache.

<---https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01DL9AVTQ

but not really for our team/system. Playing High Post distributor would clog up the lane for Harden and Lin.

Unfortunately we cant trade him, so we'll see.

---
"though time has passed, im still the future" (c) black thought

1.) Yes I agree it'll be hard for him to fit in with the team. They have a lot of pfs. And a lot of people who want to dribble.

2.) I REALLY DOUBT all of the headaches are over. Something else will come up. It's only a matter of time.

<---https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01DL9AVTQ

hes had patterns of causing headaches then getting his shit together at least til the next big transition. Were stuck with him so Im gonna support him for now.

---
"though time has passed, im still the future" (c) black thought

<---https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01DL9AVTQ

wed have room to play Tjones or Montejunas. They sent Greg Smith back down to dleague.

---
"though time has passed, im still the future" (c) black thought

Cause I'm doing better now, don't mean I never lost shit/ I was married to a state of mind and I divorced it -- Black Thought

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points.

He seemed extremely thoughtful on these issues. Way more so than fucking Klosterman.

Klosterman makes a lot of good points as far as exactly how far White is thinking any of his points through. He sounds thoughtful and radical until a new issue comes up and then he'll subtly contradict his point on an earlier issue, only to completely nullify an even earlier point in that same answer.


And on he goes, in this interview and others.


~~~~~~~~~
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Don't really have time to listen to the podcast, unfortunately.

I thought this blog post was well written. It kind fo takes apart the condescention and simple-minded thinking that Klostermann used during the interview.

http://lefthookjournal.wordpress.com/2013/02/11/why-royce-white-might-be-the-most-important-athlete-since-muhammad-ali-and-why-chuck-klosterman-doesnt-get-it/

I mean you could come in giving Royce all the benefit of the doubt- and still when you remember that he flew all over the place in college, when he reveals that he only shoots once a week currently, and when you see just how much attention he still commands this far along in the affair, I think it would be really hard to not sound condescending your own self.

I know Klosterman is both a good writer and interviewer, and if there was any condescension on display, which I don't personally think there was, then I think it stems from only a natural reaction we probably all would experience at some point if we were in his shoes.

Yet Klosterman appeared completely out of his depth with White's critique of the capitalist system in the NBA and in the U.S.

Whether he or you 'approve' of White's situation or behavior is kind of irrelevant. Don't be condescending. Don't pretend like White isn't thoughtful on the topics at hand.

IMO, Klosterman showed his ass on this one.

White talks about "choice" a lot in the piece, and Klosterman never presses him on his choice to play basketball. If White chose to work at McDonalds, would McDonalds have to provide him with a doctor of his choice and hope he was feeling good enough to make his shifts? People with mental and physical disabilities certainly deserve some level of accommodation in the workplace, but there will also be jobs they are incapable of doing. White's stance seems to be that the ADA means that everyone in every situation has to adapt to him, and that he bears no responsibility to adapt himself. I actually agree with him in regards to most of his larger points, but those are also pretty superfluous to his specific situation.

>If White
>chose to work at McDonalds, would McDonalds have to provide
>him with a doctor of his choice and hope he was feeling good
>enough to make his shifts?

I think this point is largely included in White's critique of our capitalist system, which most certainly is epitomized by corporations like McDonald's.

>People with mental and physical
>disabilities certainly deserve some level of accommodation in
>the workplace, but there will also be jobs they are incapable
>of doing.

I mean, have no fear. There will always be corporations and positions that exclude people with various mental health issues, even if they're legally obligated not to do so. It will always happen. Always.


>White's stance seems to be that the ADA means that
>everyone in every situation has to adapt to him, and that he
>bears no responsibility to adapt himself.

I think that's taking his argument to an unfair extreme. Just because he's arguing the current situation in our country in adequate w/r/t to mental health between employers and employees (which is accurate), doesn't mean he's necessarily arguing for some black and white utopia of employment. Nor has he stated anywhere that individuals bear no responsibility. He pretty clearly states how murky and difficult this discussion is.

Or is it to overthrow our government? Like I said, I personally agree with him on many of his larger points, and good for him if he wants to throw away his basketball career in an effort to abolish capitalism, but talk like that reinforces the notion that he's willfully ignoring the reality he's in. If he truly wants to make a difference in the future of the world, he has to remain in the public consciousness, and giving interviews at the Cheesecake Factory, shooting a ball once a week, and showing up fat to your first game isn't going to do it.

>Or is it to overthrow our government?

>an effort to abolish capitalism

Stop it.

He's critiquing capitalism, an activity this country myopically avoids like the plague.

Your unfair characterizations of his argument are a great illustration of this dynamic and only strengthen his points.

If you don't want to listen to him, that's your problem. You and Klosterman.

http://imageshack.us/a/img856/9919/imagedypz.jpg

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"though time has passed, im still the future" (c) black thought