This is the series where Hakeem supposedly "sonned" a young Shaq with the Rockets sweeping the Magic, when in reality that wasn't exactly the case.

First let's look at the raw numbers:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1995_finals.html

Hakeem averaged almost 33ppg but only shot 48% from the field, well below his normal efficiency. Shaq averaged 28ppg on 60% shooting, Shaq also averaged more rebounds, assists and blocks in the series.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199506070ORL.html
In Game 1, Hakeem had 31 points, 6 rebounds, 7 assists and 4 blocks. Shaq had 26 points, 16 rebounds, 9 assists and 3 blocks. Orlando was up by 3 with 10 seconds left and Nick Anderson missed 4 straight free-throws. Kenny "The Jet" Smith hit a NBA record-tying 7th three-pointer to send the game to overtime where the Rockets prevailed. The talented but very young Magic squad never quite recovered from that devastating home loss and lost the next 3.

It's been suggested that those missed free throws not only changed the course of that series, but the future of the Magic organization and NBA history as well:
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=ys-andersonmagic060809

BONUS BOXSCORE: Game 7 of the 1994 NBA Finals:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199406220HOU.html

This was was the clincher for the Rockets first title win over the Knicks. Hakeem had 25 points(on 25 shots) and 10 rebounds, Ewing had 17 and 10. John Starks was 2 for 18 including 0 for 11 from 3 point range. Wtf, man?!

If the Knicks, who had a 3-2 lead in that series had pulled it out, how different would the legacies of Hakeem and Ewing be with one title apiece instead of Hakeem having 2 and Ewing not have one? During that time they were considered more or less equals, Ewing might have actually been held in slightly higher regard because his teams had been more successful in the playoffs up until that point. Now a lot of people rate Hakeem as one of the top 5 centers of all-time while Ewing barely makes the top 10.

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i think the Dream / Shaq series, is a classic case of the media or press framing the narrative of 'Dream sonned Shaq' rather than the actual statistics or game footage showing that.

i don't doubt that there were instances of Dream showing up Shaq, but I guess until you just now, i didn't realize that Shaq more than held his own against Hakeem.

If i remember right, '95 was the year that Hakeem beat the Admiral and the Spurs and it seemed that Hakeem showed that he was one of the greats not only of his time, which featured alot of good big men, but of all time as well.

as far as the Hakeem / Ewing matchup goes, i think you're spot on.

it's interesting tho that in this modern era of having access to youtube and statistics that allows fans to be able to compare players of differing eras and rules to one another, that the only mark that people really track is the amount of rings a player has. not to say that great players that win championships aren't great, but i think Jordan being so dominant and anomalous in winning his six kind of made people think, 'if a player is great, he wins multiple titles.' when in actuality it takes alot more than just talent and even being clutch and a great competitor to win ONE title, much less multiple titles.

the 'reduction' of greatness to number of titles won, at least within the media, might be because there's been so much basketball played since the NBA became a major sport that there's really no way that a journalist or expert could really decide who is great just by watching film. the number of players to compare and the context is just too much.

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end of the 93-94 season he had beaten out Shaq for the scoring title with a 71 points in the last game of the season.

He built on that the next season when the Spurs won a NBA best 62 games and Robinson was crowned MVP before the start of the western conference finals.

The Spurs were "upset" in the western conference finals by the defending champion Rockets in 6 games, a lot was made of the fact that Hakeem, the MVP from the year before, made it personal and he did indeed beast out and outplay Robinson and a lot of the Hakeem hype is based off of that one series.

A couple of years later, Robinson missed most of the season due injury,(actually they said he could have came back late in the season but Greg Popovich, who was engineering his own takeover at the time held him out to get that lottery pick), the Spurs lost 62 games and that gave them the opportunity to get the #1 pick and draft Tim Duncan.

Adding Duncan to the same core of Robinson, Sean Elliot and Avery Johnson that had the best record in the league and went to the western conference finals only a few years earlier allowed San Antonio to finally win their first title but people try to act like it was all Duncan and Robinson was a washed up bum by that time.


I somewhat agree with you as far as a great player doesn't win a title alone, he needs a great team, even those other guys may be role-players and not All-Stars those guys doing their jobs are important to letting the star shine. The 72-10 1996 Bulls weren't all Jordan and Pippen as some people like to believe. Toni Kukoc was 6th Man of the Year, Dennis Rodman won his 5th of 7 consecutive rebounding titles, and you had veterans like Steve Kerr and Ron Harper that contributed to multiple title teams.

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---------------------------------
<<<Sith Lord, Mitch Kupchak

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Lakers, Dodgers, Eagles

that's almost as old as basketball itself.

Look at the Wilt Russell comparision. You the guy that re-wrote the record books and the majority of his records will NEVER be touched vs. the guy that won 11 titles. Most people hold the guy with 11-titles in higher regard ignoring the fact that he had way better teammates.

<<<<<<<TALK TO THE HAND, BITCHES!!!

(1) young horry was a beast! 17 & 10, with 2+ blocks per game? damn

(2) this is what a real sonning looks like:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1995_WCF.html

hakeem - 35.3, 12.5, 5.0, & 4.2 blks on 56% FG
admiral - 23.8, 11.3, 2.7, & 2.2 blks on 45% FG

plus 39 & 17 for hakeem in the clinching game vs 19 & 10 for drob

to legendary status. Prior to then, most people pretty much had Hakeem, Ewing, and Robinson on the same tier, that series was when Hakeem kind of separated himself.

<<<<<<<TALK TO THE HAND, BITCHES!!!

Sam Cassell came up big in game 2 with 31 points, you had guys like Horry and Mario Elie coming up big in games 3 and 4, it wasn't Hakeem all by himself like people try to make it out to be.

<<<<<<<TALK TO THE HAND, BITCHES!!!

... right? guess you only boxscore bobby when it suits your agendas.

anyway Hakeem didn't son Shaq like he did Ewing, Shaq played really well but Hakeem still got the better of him.


>If the Knicks, who had a 3-2 lead in that series had pulled it
>out, how different would the legacies of Hakeem and Ewing be
>with one title apiece instead of Hakeem having 2 and Ewing not
>have one? During that time they were considered more or less
>equals, Ewing might have actually been held in slightly higher
>regard because his teams had been more successful in the
>playoffs up until that point.

Not really - Hakeem won an MVP, 2 DPOYs, 6x 1st team All-NBA, All-Defense 9 times (1st team 5x + 2nd team 4x); Ewing made 1st team All-NBA once, All-Defense 3 times (2nd team each time) and was never in the running for MVP. It was well established that Olajuwon was better than Ewing, if not for the fact that Ewing played in New York nobody would have ever even questioned that.

<--------- Harvey BETTER

>... right? guess you only boxscore bobby when it suits your
>agendas.
>
>anyway Hakeem didn't son Shaq like he did Ewing, Shaq played
>really well but Hakeem still got the better of him.


Not sure why you're so angry, but Hakeem didn't "son" Shaq period. And what the boxscores don't show is that Shaq mainly defended Hakeem straight up while the Rockets double- and triple-teamed Shaq.


>Not really - Hakeem won an MVP, 2 DPOYs, 6x 1st team All-NBA,
>All-Defense 9 times (1st team 5x + 2nd team 4x); Ewing made
>1st team All-NBA once, All-Defense 3 times (2nd team each
>time) and was never in the running for MVP. It was well
>established that Olajuwon was better than Ewing, if not for
>the fact that Ewing played in New York nobody would have ever
>even questioned that.

Hakeem didn't have all those awards at that point, he was considered the better defensive player but Ewing was considered to be better offensively and his teams had experienced more playoff success up until that point.

<<<<<<<TALK TO THE HAND, BITCHES!!!

>>anyway Hakeem didn't son Shaq like he did Ewing, Shaq played
>>really well but Hakeem still got the better of him.
>
>
>Not sure why you're so angry, but Hakeem didn't "son" Shaq
>period.

not sure why you're so mad when I just said Hakeem didn't son him, but Olajuwon beating Shaq sure seems to make you angry though.


>Hakeem didn't have all those awards at that point, he was

actually he basically did, at that point he had already won MVP, both of his DPOYs, 5 of his 6 1st-team ALL-NBA selections + all 5 of his 1st team All-Defense selections

>considered the better defensive player but Ewing was
>considered to be better offensively and his teams had
>experienced more playoff success up until that point.

nope - Olajuwon was considered to have the best post game in the league whereas Ewing was considered to be a jumpshooter. And Ewing had only made it as far as the conference finals once before while Olajuwon had already made it to the Finals before. Really the only reason anyone considered Ewing to be on Olajuwon's level was because he played in New York.

<--------- Harvey BETTER

>>>anyway Hakeem didn't son Shaq like he did Ewing, Shaq
>played
>>>really well but Hakeem still got the better of him.
>>
>>
>>Not sure why you're so angry, but Hakeem didn't "son" Shaq
>>period.
>
>not sure why you're so mad when I just said Hakeem didn't son
>him, but Olajuwon beating Shaq sure seems to make you angry
>though.
>
>
>>Hakeem didn't have all those awards at that point, he was
>
>actually he basically did, at that point he had already won
>MVP, both of his DPOYs, 5 of his 6 1st-team ALL-NBA selections
>+ all 5 of his 1st team All-Defense selections
>
>>considered the better defensive player but Ewing was
>>considered to be better offensively and his teams had
>>experienced more playoff success up until that point.
>
>nope - Olajuwon was considered to have the best post game in
>the league whereas Ewing was considered to be a jumpshooter.
>And Ewing had only made it as far as the conference finals
>once before while Olajuwon had already made it to the Finals
>before. Really the only reason anyone considered Ewing to be
>on Olajuwon's level was because he played in New York.

grassrootsphilosopher

>not sure why you're so mad when I just said Hakeem didn't son
>him, but Olajuwon beating Shaq sure seems to make you angry
>though.

It doesnt really matter to me either way, Shaq ended up with twice as many titles so that kinda speaks for itself.

>nope - Olajuwon was considered to have the best post game in
>the league whereas Ewing was considered to be a jumpshooter.
>And Ewing had only made it as far as the conference finals
>once before while Olajuwon had already made it to the Finals
>before. Really the only reason anyone considered Ewing to be
>on Olajuwon's level was because he played in New York.

That's just not true, Olajuwon had a limited offensive game early in his career, Ewing was known IN ADDITION to have a traditional post game for being to knock down the 15-18 foot jumper.

And after Ralph Sampson flamed out Olajuwon struggled on .500 teams trying to make the playoffs and get out of the first round for 9 years. That's a FACT.

<<<<<<<TALK TO THE HAND, BITCHES!!!

>It doesnt really matter to me either way, Shaq ended up with
>twice as many titles so that kinda speaks for itself.

Obviously it matters to you or else you wouldn't always be crying about it. And Shaq needed to be paired with HOF wing scorers to win while Hakeem won with Vernon Maxwell as his #2 option, which kinda speaks for itself too.


>That's just not true, Olajuwon had a limited offensive game
>early in his career, Ewing was known IN ADDITION to have a
>traditional post game for being to knock down the 15-18 foot
>jumper.

LOL - early in his career sure but by the time period you were talking about Hakeem was known as the most skilled big man in the league. And Ewing was known for PRIMARILY relying on his fallaway jump shot as opposed to a traditional post game.


>And after Ralph Sampson flamed out Olajuwon struggled on .500
>teams trying to make the playoffs and get out of the first
>round for 9 years. That's a FACT.

The actual facts are that in the 8 seasons prior to their match-up in the 1994 Finals Olajuwon's teams never finished below .500, missed the playoffs once and made it out of the first round 3 times including a trip to the Finals; meanwhile Ewing's teams finished below .500 four times, missed the playoffs twice and made it out of the first round four times but only made it as far as the conference finals once. This idea that Ewing's teams had more success than Olajuwon's up to that point doesn't jibe with the actual facts, especially since, you know, Olajuwon had already led his team the Finals before.

<--------- Harvey BETTER

did average more rebounds and blocked shots in the series...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1994_finals.html

<<<<<<<TALK TO THE HAND, BITCHES!!!

36%!!

and Hakeem outscored Pat in every game of the series.

there's really no way to spin this one.

<--------- Harvey BETTER

<<<<<<<TALK TO THE HAND, BITCHES!!!

We all know that Starks would have had a clean look had it been Shaq instead of Hakeem involved in that PnR: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CzUv5_YFhPI

WHAT'S GOOD *****? What's REALLY good?!?!????!!! Ha HA!
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Just watch the games

Olajuwon played better than Ewing, but he shot above 50% twice in the series, Ewing did once. Olajuwon shot 14-20 in Game 4 in a loss.
Ewing went out gunning...didn't know he took as many shots as he did.

But to say Ewing didn't play Olajuwon the best out of those 3 centers (him, Robinson, Shaq) didn't watch the games. Olajuwon wasn't putting the dream shake on Ewing like he did with Shaq and Robinson...he was step-back J'ing Ewing to death, along with a spin-fadaway.

Take that great game 4 away from Olajuwon and the FG% even out a lot more.

Ewing did play him the toughest...watching the games

>Just watch the games

I watched the games just like everyone else did, and the only one who agrees with you is thatruth, which is usually not a good sign for your argument.

>Olajuwon played better than Ewing, but he shot above 50% twice
>in the series, Ewing did once. Olajuwon shot 14-20 in Game 4
>in a loss.

Olajuwon shot above 50% three times; Ewing shot below 40% three times and below 30% once. Here are Ewing's shooting lines for the series:

10 for 26
7 for 19
9 for 29
8 for 28
11 for 21
6 for 20
7 for 17

I mean cmon. Those shooting lines would make Iverson blush.


>Ewing went out gunning...didn't know he took as many shots as
>he did.

Ewing took 10 more shots than Olajuwon in the series while scoring 56 less points. Like I said, there's really no way to spin this one.


>But to say Ewing didn't play Olajuwon the best out of those 3
>centers (him, Robinson, Shaq) didn't watch the games. Olajuwon
>wasn't putting the dream shake on Ewing like he did with Shaq
>and Robinson...he was step-back J'ing Ewing to death, along
>with a spin-fadaway.

No, to say Ewing played Olajuwon the best out of those 3 centers is just being a homer. I mean he didn't get murdered the way Robinson did but he didn't hold his own as well as O'Neal did either.


>Take that great game 4 away from Olajuwon and the FG% even out
>a lot more.

If you take away game 4 Olajuwon still shot 47%, so no it still wouldn't even be close. Meanwhile you take game 5 away from Ewing and he shot 34%. Again, really no way to spin this.


>Ewing did play him the toughest...watching the games

Dude you can keep repeating that "watching the games" line for another 18 years if you want, it's not gonna change the fact that Hakeem gave Pat the business in that series.

<--------- Harvey BETTER

written that he dominated Shaq in that series

the consensus is that he *outplayed* Shaq because Dream averaged the most points and his squad SWEPT what most ppl felt was a superior team at the time...

and ppl say well Shaq was only in his 3rd season at the time

but

Shaq's game in 95 was statistically just as good as it was during the 3-peat and he wasn't as lazy then and he played against far better centers in the early 90s vs when he earned the rep as the game's most dominante big men post Wilt Chamberlain playing against glorified power forwards and useless centers

As far as Olajuwon vs Ewing is concerned, sans the championship Dream WAS ALWAYS THE BETTER PLAYER. He was a better scorer w/a more offensive repertoire, better rebounder, better passer, best defensive ctr. the game has had post Russell, and he's *8th* ALL TIME IN STEALS (the only center in that category)

grassrootsphilosopher

>written that he dominated Shaq in that series
>
>the consensus is that he *outplayed* Shaq because Dream
>averaged the most points and his squad SWEPT what most ppl
>felt was a superior team at the time...

but Shaq was better in almost every other statistically category

>and ppl say well Shaq was only in his 3rd season at the time

Not only was Shaq younger but his teammates younger and inexperienced plus they suffered some significant injuries that people don't talk about.

>but
>
>Shaq's game in 95 was statistically just as good as it was
>during the 3-peat and he wasn't as lazy then and he played
>against far better centers in the early 90s vs when he earned
>the rep as the game's most dominante big men post Wilt
>Chamberlain

That's just pure bs there, like I said above, had extended his game in the LA years and his post moved was far more polished and the triangle freed him up more.

>As far as Olajuwon vs Ewing is concerned, sans the
>championship Dream WAS ALWAYS THE BETTER PLAYER. He was a
>better scorer w/a more offensive repertoire, better rebounder,
>better passer, best defensive ctr. the game has had post
>Russell, and he's *8th* ALL TIME IN STEALS (the only center in
>that category)

Dream wasn't always the better scorer, it took him a while to develop his offensive post moves and the vaunted "Dreamshake", that's why after Ralph Sampson flamed out Hakeem's Rockets teams didn't do anything for a while.

<<<<<<<TALK TO THE HAND, BITCHES!!!

>Not only was Shaq younger but his teammates younger and
>inexperienced plus they suffered some significant injuries
>that people don't talk about.

but they were far more talented though - Penny and Shaq WERE 1ST TEAM ALL NBA and Dennis Scott led the league in 3 pt shooting and Horace Grant, although not an nba star, was a perfect fit for that team, and Nick Anderson will forever be remembered for missing 4 straight fts but ppl seem to forget that he was a very underrated defensive player (played really good D on Jordan in the semi-finals, sealed gm 4 by picking MJ's pocket) and they also had solid bench players

>>but
>>
>>Shaq's game in 95 was statistically just as good as it was
>>during the 3-peat and he wasn't as lazy then and he played
>>against far better centers in the early 90s vs when he
>earned
>>the rep as the game's most dominante big men post Wilt
>>Chamberlain
>
>That's just pure bs there, like I said above, had extended his
>game in the LA years and his post moved was far more polished
>and the triangle freed him up more.

How many great or even HOF centers were in the league during Shaq's 3-peat run w/the Lakers? Alonzo Mourning is the only one I can think of and he's borderline HOF and certainly not an all time great. In addition, you're only talking abt OFFENSE...you know there's other facets of the game besides scoring and dunking the ball. The younger Shaq was a far better and more consistent rebounder vs the LA Shaq who had seasons where he barely averaged 10rpg, the younger Shaq was a more committed shot blocker also vs when he was in LA and he was known for taking plays off, he ran the floor better too when he was w/Orlando...

>>As far as Olajuwon vs Ewing is concerned, sans the
>>championship Dream WAS ALWAYS THE BETTER PLAYER. He was a
>>better scorer w/a more offensive repertoire, better
>rebounder,
>>better passer, best defensive ctr. the game has had post
>>Russell, and he's *8th* ALL TIME IN STEALS (the only center
>in
>>that category)
>
>Dream wasn't always the better scorer, it took him a while to
>develop his offensive post moves and the vaunted "Dreamshake",
>that's why after Ralph Sampson flamed out Hakeem's Rockets
>teams didn't do anything for a while.

And neither did Ewing when he 1st entered the league but Olajuwon managed to expand his low post game and I said Olajuwon was a BETTER PLAYER, not just a better scorer than Ewing. He does EVERYTHING better than Ewing ever did, bottom line.

grassrootsphilosopher

>but they were far more talented though - Penny and Shaq WERE
>1ST TEAM ALL NBA and Dennis Scott led the league in 3 pt
>shooting and Horace Grant, although not an nba star, was a
>perfect fit for that team, and Nick Anderson will forever be
>remembered for missing 4 straight fts but ppl seem to forget
>that he was a very underrated defensive player (played really
>good D on Jordan in the semi-finals, sealed gm 4 by picking
>MJ's pocket) and they also had solid bench players

Shaq and Penny we're great but they were still what like 22 and 23? Guys like Scott and Anderson were milk carton status and that's why they lost.

>How many great or even HOF centers were in the league during
>Shaq's 3-peat run w/the Lakers? Alonzo Mourning is the only
>one I can think of and he's borderline HOF and certainly not
>an all time great. In addition, you're only talking abt
>OFFENSE...you know there's other facets of the game besides
>scoring and dunking the ball. The younger Shaq was a far
>better and more consistent rebounder vs the LA Shaq who had
>seasons where he barely averaged 10rpg, the younger Shaq was a
>more committed shot blocker also vs when he was in LA and he
>was known for taking plays off, he ran the floor better too
>when he was w/Orlando...

Your first question is kind of irrelevant, how often did the great centers of the 90's even make finals?

And as far as Shaq goes, in his younger days he was a more agressive rebounder and shotblocker but he also fouled out a lot, he had to scale back a little by design because he realized he was more valuable to his team on the floor

>Olajuwon was a BETTER PLAYER, not just a better scorer than
>Ewing. He does EVERYTHING better than Ewing ever did, bottom
>line.

Ewing was better offensively earlier and it wasn't really close.

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Ewing was just as good Hakeem, go fuck yourself.

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hall of fame bust

low-key underrated.

Those Mavericks teams he played on we're tough, they just couldn't get past Magic's Lakers.

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O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

Everything related to the Dream vs Diesel comparison I'm ridin til the wheels fall off. This idea that Hakeem is better than Shaq is and has always been bullshit.

and it kills me that even though Shaq has openly admitted this that somehow his own admission is irrelevant and wrong lol. He said in earnest he ranks himself 5th all time and that's abt accurate.

Because of Shaq's size and strength, he was certainly more dominant than Hakeem but as far as skillset and overall game, there is now f'ing way Shaq was the better player.

-statistically, both are abt the same when it comes to rebounding but the fact that Shaq outweighed Hakeem by damn near 70 to 80 lbs but never once led the league in rebounding is a knock against him imo (its a another indictment of Shaq's laziness)

-Hakeem was the more versatile scorer while Shaq's offensive gm mostly revolved around his power

-Both were really good passing big men

-Hakeem was a better and much more committed defensive player than Shaq ever was which is why even though he played ONE LESS season than Shaq, he still has a *1000* more blk shots than Shaq (1000!?!)...oh and Hakeem is *8th* ALL TIME IN STEALS! the only ctr. ranked in that category (Dream is the best defensive center post Russell but somehow defense seems to not matter in these types of discussions)

-lastly, which was the more reliable player in close gms isn't even a discussion. Dream is actually one of the few big men who could create his own shot and could be counted on to hit his fts in crucial moments.

Intangibles: Dream all day...better leader and a better teammate

grassrootsphilosopher

>and it kills me that even though Shaq has openly admitted
>this that somehow his own admission is irrelevant and wrong
>lol. He said in earnest he ranks himself 5th all time and
>that's abt accurate.

Irrelevant. Shaq says a bunch of shit. A lot of players say a bunch of shit.

>
>Because of Shaq's size and strength, he was certainly more
>dominant than Hakeem but as far as skillset and overall game,
>there is now f'ing way Shaq was the better player.

Yea, Hakeem has more skills than Shaq. Kobe has more skills than Bron. Footwork, mid range shooting, free throw shooting, three point shooting, dribbling/ball-handling and moves off the dribble. Bron still better tho. His impact is greater b/c of what he brings physically and b/ of his intelligence and willingness to distribute. Shit aint a skills contest. It's a beat the other team by any means contest. If its through size and force then thats just what it is.

>
>-statistically, both are abt the same when it comes to
>rebounding but the fact that Shaq outweighed Hakeem by damn
>near 70 to 80 lbs but never once led the league in rebounding
>is a knock against him imo (its a another indictment of Shaq's
>laziness)

Stupid argument. All that matters is what was, not what YOU think should've been. foh.

>
>-Hakeem was the more versatile scorer while Shaq's offensive
>gm mostly revolved around his power

And yet, Shaq scored more. Kobe more versatile than Mike. But ya know what, MJ scored more. Sorry.

>-Hakeem was a better and much more committed defensive player
>than Shaq ever was which is why even though he played ONE LESS
>season than Shaq, he still has a *1000* more blk shots than
>Shaq (1000!?!)...oh and Hakeem is *8th* ALL TIME IN STEALS!
>the only ctr. ranked in that category (Dream is the best
>defensive center post Russell but somehow defense seems to not
>matter in these types of discussions)

This is what makes it close. Hakeem was better on defense. No argument.

>-lastly, which was the more reliable player in close gms isn't
>even a discussion. Dream is actually one of the few big men
>who could create his own shot and could be counted on to hit
>his fts in crucial moments.

For all the hack a shaq bs, it never kept him winning 4 chips. i care about the bottom line.

teams having to resort to the hack-a-Shaq alone, he's had a bigger impact on the game than *ANY* player in history

but

we know that's nowhere the case...


>>and it kills me that even though Shaq has openly admitted
>>this that somehow his own admission is irrelevant and wrong
>>lol. He said in earnest he ranks himself 5th all time and
>>that's abt accurate.
>
>Irrelevant. Shaq says a bunch of shit. A lot of players say a
>bunch of shit.

dude, you sound foolish...just saying lol. Shaq, who has the biggest ego in sports, would NEVER say another big man is better than him if he didn't really mean it. He has no reason whatsover to say Hakeem was better than him, none...so miss me w/this only on Okp argument that "oh, Shaq says a lot shit, he doesn't really mean it though." He was asked in an interview abt all time great ctrs., not abt Hakeem specifically and he said I'm ranked 5th behind Russell/Wilt/Kareem/Hakeem...and he told the interviewer WHY he had himself ranked 5th all time...

>>
>>Because of Shaq's size and strength, he was certainly more
>>dominant than Hakeem but as far as skillset and overall
>game,
>>there is now f'ing way Shaq was the better player.
>
>Yea, Hakeem has more skills than Shaq. Kobe has more skills
>than Bron. Footwork, mid range shooting, free throw shooting,
>three point shooting, dribbling/ball-handling and moves off
>the dribble. Bron still better tho. His impact is greater b/c
>of what he brings physically and b/ of his intelligence and
>willingness to distribute. Shit aint a skills contest. It's a
>beat the other team by any means contest. If its through size
>and force then thats just what it is.

Comparing Lebron's and Kobe's skills to one another isn't anywhere near the same as comparing Hakeem's and Shaq's skills...because at least w/Lebron and Kobe its debatable or the difference isn't as noticeable as it is w/Hakeen and Shaq - w/Hakeem and Shaq the difference is like night and day. Hakeem arguably had the best footwork of any big man in the history of the game and his ball handling skills for a ctr. was unparalleled, plus he had a variety of shots he developed as he reached his prime.


>>-statistically, both are abt the same when it comes to
>>rebounding but the fact that Shaq outweighed Hakeem by damn
>>near 70 to 80 lbs but never once led the league in
>rebounding
>>is a knock against him imo (its a another indictment of
>Shaq's
>>laziness)
>
>Stupid argument. All that matters is what was, not what YOU
>think should've been. foh.

no, you just obviously don't understand basketball as it relates to comparing player A to player B. Let me help out w/that problem: I say Dennis Rodman is the greatest rebounder of all time, not because he had better rebounding stats than Russell or Wilt because he didn't - I say he's the greatest rebounder of all time and better than them because he was 6-8 probably 215 while the past great rebounding big men he's compared to were all 7 footers and much bigger than anyone else on the court during their era.

The same applies to Hakeem and Shaq: Shaq's DOMINANCE was mainly in an era of inferior competition so he should've SCORED more, a lot more, in fact and he was only dominant when it came to OFFENSE, he was NEVER a dominant rebounder (or defensive player) despite being the most physically imposing player ever in the game and yet he couldn't lead the league in rebounding ONCE....in a 19 yr career? yeah, like I said before, that's an indictment of his laziness.


>>-Hakeem was the more versatile scorer while Shaq's offensive
>>gm mostly revolved around his power
>
>And yet, Shaq scored more. Kobe more versatile than Mike. But
>ya know what, MJ scored more. Sorry.

SMH the fact that he averaged more ppg doesn't mean he was the better offensive player? case and point: Lebron has always averaged more ppg than Carmelo Anthony since they've been in the league but Melo is considered the better, more natural scorer BECAUSE OF VARIETY OF WAYS TO SCORE THE BASKETBALL. Shaq being 7-1 345lbs always had a considerable size advantage over any opponent he went up against and probably a 3rd of his points, if not more, came off dunks, especially early on in his career so w/that said, I'd rather have Hakeem's offensive arsenal because he's the only ctr. I've seen who could create his own and if he got fouled, at least you know he'll probably make his fts. (since "clutchness" matters so much in today's game and on OKP, I'm amazed that this doesn't factor in in the discussion of who's better btw Shaq vs Hakeem)

>>-Hakeem was a better and much more committed defensive
>player
>>than Shaq ever was which is why even though he played ONE
>LESS
>>season than Shaq, he still has a *1000* more blk shots than
>>Shaq (1000!?!)...oh and Hakeem is *8th* ALL TIME IN STEALS!
>>the only ctr. ranked in that category (Dream is the best
>>defensive center post Russell but somehow defense seems to
>not
>>matter in these types of discussions)
>
>This is what makes it close. Hakeem was better on defense. No
>argument.

No, this is what clearly makes Hakeem the better OVERALL player to anyone that's not consumed w/just offense. There is no reason why Hakeem should be a better defensive player than Shaq, not one except that Shaq was a lazy mofo and was known to take plays off and wasn't always committed to playing defense for 48 minutes. Its as if you and others act like defense is unimportant or secondary when it comes to evaluating a particular player's game. There's arguments to be made for which was better when it comes to their offensive games but its not even a question when it comes to the other part of the floor. So that to me makes Dream the overalll better player...
>
>>-lastly, which was the more reliable player in close gms
>isn't
>>even a discussion. Dream is actually one of the few big men
>>who could create his own shot and could be counted on to hit
>>his fts in crucial moments.
>
>For all the hack a shaq bs, it never kept him winning 4 chips.
>i care about the bottom line.

If Hakeem had Kobe and Wade for the better part of his prime then he would've won more rings than he did, plain and simple...but ask yourself this: even in Shaq's prime could he have won 2x w/that Rockets team? (rhetorical question)

grassrootsphilosopher

stop it.

dude used the example that because of Shaq's impact on the game that that criteria makes him the better player over Hakeem

Andrew Bynum, LA's best rebounder/low post player/shot blocker, now has more of an impact on the game than Kobe at this point so does that make him LA's best player because of those facts?

grassrootsphilosopher

<<<<<<<TALK TO THE HAND, BITCHES!!!

>
just because Starks wasn't gonna stop shooting but goddamn Riles held onto that motherfucker for dear life. Even Mike took a seat late in game 6 v. the Blazers. Most people forget it was Pip and the second unit that led the charge to win the clincher.

<<<<<<<TALK TO THE HAND, BITCHES!!!

saying something to him along the lines of 'I want the Nick Anderson that was around before those two missed free throws, what happened to that guy?' as a motivational ploy.