I mean, there's no reason to have multiple posts. Especially since all these games are so close together.

I'm really looking forward to this Brazil game. I'm really looking forward to watching Hulk do his thing. I expect a good game though.

You're such pests...now, what is it you want? In your depths of your ignorance, what is it you want? Well, whatever it is you want, I can't deliver because I just don't see it. - Orson Welles


Never Tired, Always Sleepy

but that Brasil front line is terrifying

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I think the yanks will win this one.

they have one of the best midfields in the world with jones,landy, clint and bradley, and right now they are really clicking.

Plus Brasil is lining up with no Ganso, no Luiz,Silva is still not at full strength, and I have no idea why Ramires was not called up. Dude is the best box to box player in the world. No excuse for that.


Brasil is very, very young. I think they will come into their own when the WC arrives, but, for right now, they are still extremely raw.


I guess players like Kaka, Robinho,etc, aren't going to get anymore call ups.

Fact: USA is 1-15-0 against Brasil ....I did not know that ....If america does not get a win today...they will never, ever get one.....


Perfect time to get a win against a very young brasil team.

they wanna see an L so they can get rid of Mano
I feel like we should win, and they don't think Brasil is gonna do anything special with this squad and this manager

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take that shit with a grain of salt. Brasilian fans are so fucking capricious. It's insane.

They did the same thing with Dunga.


To my understanding, most fans want Scolari( FOH!), so that should tell you where their heads are.

Brasil is young, and they are moving along the way that they should be. A bunch of 19-21 year old players are not going to take over the fucking world. ....shit takes time.

-

Earth is Earth.

should have had this game in Foxboro to get the Brasil contingent at least.

_________________________

http://www.twitter.com/haj20
http://www.last.fm/user/haj20

a hand ball is a hand ball. period


Hulk is so overrated .. all left foot ....no right ...send him to his right, and it is a wrap.

is america that terrible??

jesus brazil is killing these guys ....and if they weren't young as shit .they would have 5 goals by now!

this is a raw brasil team!!

we suck that badly??

lol @ you tawn bout "we have the best midfield in the world"




It ain't easy... but it sho' is fun

Neymar is the realllllllllllllllllll deal

power in both legs ..ability in both legs ...speed.....no weaknesses ...except experience ..

Especially from far away that red looks dark and it looks like old 1930s prison uniforms.

I have nothing of substance to add.

______________________________
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The 4th Annual Residency Encampment: Where do we go from here?

All you see is crime in the source code.

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http://gifsoup.com/view7/2944936/hercules-nutty-professor-o.gif

-

Earth is Earth.

and Timmy who? Fabian Johnson is more than capable of getting us results at the LB position.

___________

HOPE!

To me , USA has regressed.

This young brasil team has dominated the shit out of the USA....


I thought USA would have a better showing than this, and that the backline would be a lot more stable..but they are getting their wigs pushed back

america is doing a great job on hulk, but hulk is all left so that is not hard to do....

gomez is the truth

and the game doesn't count.

it's useful to have things like "Jermaine Jones needs to leave USMNT and not come back" and "Michael Bradley is the future of US soccer" and "Herculez Gomez is a boss" confirmed, but besides that, it doesn't mean shit.

CONCACAF games will let us know where we really stand.

___________

HOPE!

___________

HOPE!

I agree

Arjen Robben is just as one footed, and I don't think it's easy to bottle him up either. Hulk is a beast just in physicality. Especially with Chelsea losing their "physical" forward.

Don't get it confused. He's going to be a problem wherever he is.

You're such pests...now, what is it you want? In your depths of your ignorance, what is it you want? Well, whatever it is you want, I can't deliver because I just don't see it. - Orson Welles


Never Tired, Always Sleepy

Robben isn't a striker. Hulk is, and if you can keep a striker who is left footed on his right, then how effective will he be in the box?.....and his physicality is in bulk, not in length. He's small-bulky . America sent his ass to the ground on several plays.


Length is very important in the EPL...you don't need it in the spanish and Italian leagues, but it is needed in the EPL

The main reason chelsea beat barca: barca had no aerial game....They had no corners, and they didn't cross.

That is another thing that perplexes me about barca, they don't use crosses at all....no crossing to the striker ....are all teams in in la liga and serie a like that?

Now that drogba and anelka, and even kalou are gone, we have no length up front!!!



Roman is going for the possession/ attack game, so he is buying a lot of small players ....I'm not confident about that

>Robben isn't a striker. Hulk is, and if you can keep a
>striker who is left footed on his right, then how effective
>will he be in the box?.....and his physicality is in bulk, not
>in length. He's small-bulky . America sent his ass to the
>ground on several plays.
>
>
>Length is very important in the EPL...you don't need it in the
>spanish and Italian leagues, but it is needed in the EPL

Tell Zlatan you don't need to be big in Italy.

>The main reason chelsea beat barca: barca had no aerial
>game....They had no corners, and they didn't cross.

No, the main reason Chelsea beat Barca is that they were incredibly well-disciplined (well, minus John Terry), and Leo Messi hit the woodwork twice.

>That is another thing that perplexes me about barca, they
>don't use crosses at all....no crossing to the striker ....are
>all teams in in la liga and serie a like that?

While Spanish teams, especially, are less likely to use the wings in the same way as English sides, there are teams that play an "English style." In fact, Athletic Bilbao was very much a crossing team until Bielsa took over. But Barca doesn't cross because, by and large, they don't really have to. They've developed their passing and pressing game to the point where the only way to beat them is to hang back, defend in a very disciplined manner, and hit as quick as you can on the break, before they get the ball back. The reason more teams don't try to do that is that it's pretty fucking hard and takes a while to instill (both in the technical drilling and fitness needed to move as much as Barca does over the course of 90 minutes). AVB tried it at Chelsea (although his style is a bit more direct than tiki-taka), and could have done it had he been given the time. Gerard Houllier tried it with Villa last year, and had the same type of player revolt, because his team were used to quick counter attacks; unfortunately, his heart didn't let him see out the project of a clear-out.

That said, one of their CL-winning goals against Man U was a Messi header. So they can do it if they want, they just really don't want to.

>Now that drogba and anelka, and even kalou are gone, we have
>no length up front!!!

Being good in the air isn't about "length" so much as it is instinct and timing. After all, Emile Heskey's big, and he didn't do shit for Aston Villa over two and a half seasons.

>Roman is going for the possession/ attack game, so he is
>buying a lot of small players ....I'm not confident about
>that

Paul Scholes is "small," and he's quietly been one of the very best players in the Prem for a very long time. I wouldn't sweat it. Especially if it means more players like Mata and Hazard coming in.

<--- USA! USA!

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alves did it far less this year than in previous seasons for some reason and the other reasons were that without Villa, the youthful wingers were not good targets for crosses and alves often played less aggressively to protect the younger players. similarly, iniesta playing wing also makes the cross weaker and cesc is also not much of a target. MVP as a front line was the best for targeting crosses, but was never an option this season.

besides, barca scored an unworldly amount of goals and had a phenomenal season by any record (except compared to previous year's of ridiculous success), so there's no reason to shit on the style in terms of effectiveness. one might not like it, but it works.

-----------
It's only funny till someone gets mad. Then it's hilarious.

especially when you have forwards with such great touch and close control as Barca's.

<--- USA! USA!

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"This (and every, actually) conversation needs more Chesterton and less Mike Francesa." - Walleye

>especially when you have forwards with such great touch and
>close control as Barca's.

how he is surprised at this i truly do not know.

punt-and-grunt footy isn't the only way to play.

-

Earth is Earth.

so , yeah, uh..that's a wrap for Julio Cesar

brasil's goalie is insane!

fuck it!..marcello is the best left back in the world ...sorry cole( he got you on offense)

jesus fucking christ he is killing these guys..

glad to see pato get his form back

these dudes are going take over the world

http://www.whosay.com/robertgriffiniii/photos/180369?wsref=fb&code=VNi3qUG

They need to sell this Jersey, it would out sell all the others they have on the US team.

"when sex is a business & pussy is a commodity...hoes = the marines"

they get the gatdamn job DONE
leave no dollar behind

Binlahab

those jerseys are terrible ...

Nike's kits this year are terrible ....Mu, Arsenal, usa..

Most of those kits look like yachting gear. ....

>fuck it!..marcello is the best left back in the world
>...sorry cole( he got you on offense)

Marcelo is not the best left back in the world by a long shot. He is creative (which is why he sometimes lines up in the midfield). But best left back...nope.
>
>jesus fucking christ he is killing these guys..
>
>glad to see pato get his form back

He hasn't gotten it back yet. Let's see more than one game.
>
>these dudes are going take over the world

I don't see that happening either. Their goalkeeper came up big. Anytime you see the USA getting that many scoring chances, that's a bit of a problem.

You're such pests...now, what is it you want? In your depths of your ignorance, what is it you want? Well, whatever it is you want, I can't deliver because I just don't see it. - Orson Welles


Never Tired, Always Sleepy

Of course marcello is not the best ..that is why I said fuck it!...I just wanted to put that out there.

But he is top 5 ..no doubt about it. and I don't know any left back in the world who comes forward better than marcello.


Pato is back. you see the way he took that ball out of the air with his chest, and then get the score all in one motion .....He's back.


Brasil dominated that first half, and then they went in chill mode.

Also, this is a young brasil team..most of the players on that team are 20-23 years old....They aren't even mature yet, and they ran all over america

the scored should have been like 8-4.

Plus brasil played defense. Not only were they swarming on offense, but they were swarming on defense .if they master that, it's a wrap

the future looks promising as fuck.


They have the potential to win the next three world cups, considering their age......The only thing they are missing is experience.

b.s penalty and pato offsides. coulda easily been a draw.

obviously brazil is better but i was fine w/ our performance for the most part.

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Yeah, keep telling yourself that.

Brasil was clinical as fuck ...

it was a b.s. penalty...a play that happens all the time and is RARELY called in all leagues around the world...and Pato was offsides.

like i said, Brazil is better but i thought we were fine for the MOST part. coulda been a draw had things gone our way (great save, hitting the bar) and not gone against us (the two items i mentioned first).

it's whatever. not a big deal either way in my opinion.

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you do realize you just played against a bunch of motherfuckers who are not old enough to drink?

made against Korea v. Spain earlier today. Also lost, 4-1. justsayin

only proves what most people know - officiating these days is pretty horrible.

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You're disputing the obvious handball on gouch?

A handball is a handball. period.


U23 brasil team dominated the veteran US team. period.


The "golden group" of the US is getting older and slower, and the US doesn't have anything great waiting in the wings.

US is the veteran team. They have more experience,and again, that "wait until next year" campaign is dead. landy, clint,bocanegra, onyewu, they are all 30(+).


A U23 team is not supposed to wipe their ass with a veteran world cup team.....


The crazy thing is, brasil wasn't even pushing that hard.

You can make a case for a handball or ball-to-hand. It was a harsh penalty, but if it was a obvious handball a card would be given. Under the circumstances and in hindsight, I think the right call was made.

You're such pests...now, what is it you want? In your depths of your ignorance, what is it you want? Well, whatever it is you want, I can't deliver because I just don't see it. - Orson Welles


Never Tired, Always Sleepy

i love it. dempsey aint 30 btw.

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He's 29 ...that's 30!


lol


you responded like he's 25 or some shit.


This is their last run, and you know they are not winning shit in 2014.

come on, man...ain't no gold at the end of the rainbow with this.


usa's U23 didn't even qualify for the olympics

Ls for the next 10 years

increased pressure
but the defense lacked as a result

Bradley still ballin out of control

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Goochi Mane is done. how is he even ballin' in Portugal? i mean, Portugal ain't some bum ass league or anything.

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i thought we had washed our hands of him

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As far as tall physical defenders go, he's pretty much it. The other tall defenders still need a little more seasoning. They'll get better.

But this shows you how injuries can really kill your career. Charlie Davies has NO CHANCE of wearing the US shirt ever again. I think we may be good with Gomez, Altidore, and Boyd.

It will be interesting to see if Kenny Cooper makes a return.

You're such pests...now, what is it you want? In your depths of your ignorance, what is it you want? Well, whatever it is you want, I can't deliver because I just don't see it. - Orson Welles


Never Tired, Always Sleepy

>Charlie Davies has NO CHANCE of wearing the US shirt ever
>again.

: (

that killed the team ...I don't care what anyone says ...they were flying high as fuck after 2009 ....

>Charlie Davies has NO CHANCE of wearing the US shirt ever
>again.

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dude was seemingly on his way to being the first real possible BEAST type attacker the U.S. had seen in a long time.

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who can play. both are better options than Oguchi Onyewu, and George John has already been grumbling that if US doesn't call soon, he's going to cash in a Greek passport he's holding.

and everyone getting gassed off Kenny Cooper's strike rate hasn't been watching MLS games (surprise, surprise). a non-negligible # of those goals have been PKs or sheer defensive horror shows on his opposition's behalf. his real goal tally is something like 6 or 7, and how many of THOSE can you attribute to playing alongside Thierry Henry? and you'd have to be ignorant or insane to think he's a superior option to Chris Wondolowski, who has had a similar eye popping strike rate for 3 years running.

our talent isn't horrible, but we also need to be realistic and accept we're not going to be playing like Spain any time soon.

___________

HOPE!

and when I say that, I of course mean playing real squads that aren't wack concacaf minnows.

<--- USA! USA!

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i agree.

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And I honestly haven't see enough of George John to have an opinion. I'll take your word for it.


>and everyone getting gassed off Kenny Cooper's strike rate
>hasn't been watching MLS games (surprise, surprise). a
>non-negligible # of those goals have been PKs or sheer
>defensive horror shows on his opposition's behalf. his real
>goal tally is something like 6 or 7, and how many of THOSE can
>you attribute to playing alongside Thierry Henry? and you'd
>have to be ignorant or insane to think he's a superior option
>to Chris Wondolowski, who has had a similar eye popping strike
>rate for 3 years running.
>
Whoa there Kemosabe. No one said he was superior to Wondolowski, who has been kinda unreal in the last couple of year. I do attribute most of his goals to Thierry, but I was talking about his physical attributes more than anything. He's the prototypical CF in that he's big and tall. Not the fastest thing, and quite honestly he should be better in the air than he is, but that's the thing. I think the Crouch comparison is apt, but that guy has featured in the England squad more than a couple of times.

>our talent isn't horrible, but we also need to be realistic
>and accept we're not going to be playing like Spain any time
>soon.

True, true

You're such pests...now, what is it you want? In your depths of your ignorance, what is it you want? Well, whatever it is you want, I can't deliver because I just don't see it. - Orson Welles


Never Tired, Always Sleepy

>Whoa there Kemosabe. No one said he was superior to
>Wondolowski, who has been kinda unreal in the last couple of
>year. I do attribute most of his goals to Thierry, but I was
>talking about his physical attributes more than anything.
>He's the prototypical CF in that he's big and tall. Not the
>fastest thing, and quite honestly he should be better in the
>air than he is, but that's the thing. I think the Crouch
>comparison is apt, but that guy has featured in the England
>squad more than a couple of times.

he lacks the aggression and killer instinct in the box to even be fairly compared to a guy like Peter Crouch. all those physical tools you're describing and he seems to want to play like a winger. like, no BS -- LW/inside forward might be his best position, cuz his feet are good and he hits a good shot from outside the box, but he really isn't a prototypical CF. he's done well this year actually running the channels alongside Henry. he will never be a factor outside of CONCACAF and to be honest the physical central American teams might be able to bully him out of games with some rough play (which is how he got marked out of basically the entire season last year). great guy, though.

and George John is slow, but if you just want size and positioning, he has that in spades. Omar's the future, he just needs to heal.

___________

HOPE!

I think we can agree that the US is pretty solid at MF with Bradley, Jones, Edu, Torres, and a healthy Holden.

Now, not counting Dempsey and Donovan, our best forwards look like this:

Altidore
Gomez
Boyd
Wondolowski
Agudelo

Do you ever think Bunbury will regret playing for the US instead of Canada? I mean, he would have been a sure fire starter for years to come. Now, he's really a long shot for a fringe player.

You're such pests...now, what is it you want? In your depths of your ignorance, what is it you want? Well, whatever it is you want, I can't deliver because I just don't see it. - Orson Welles


Never Tired, Always Sleepy

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we should dominate soccer & be up there with the brazils & argentinas of the world, it is simply unamerican to not be the best

we have plenty of every other countries ppl here.

@ this point we got kids who HAVE grown up & played soccer all their lives

theres a lot of interest

yet...consistently hosed

why

this is me getting in on the ground floor BTW, when the US gets good & wins a world cup which WILL happen...im gonna empty a clip inna di air for the stars & stripes

Those other countries have exponentially more kids who have grown up & played soccer all of their lives - and they've been playing against each other from the time they left the womb. The cream rises to the top in that scenario. Also our soccer infrastructure - the systems in place to aid in identifying young talent and then provide pathways to get those talented kids to where they need to be - has historically been totally backwards, to the exclusion in large measure of the immigrant kids you allude to. (This is changing slowly.) In short, immigrants aside, we're a young soccer nation.


>we should dominate soccer & be up there with the brazils &
>argentinas of the world, it is simply unamerican to not be the
>best
>
>we have plenty of every other countries ppl here.
>
>@ this point we got kids who HAVE grown up & played soccer all
>their lives
>
>theres a lot of interest
>
>yet...consistently hosed
>
>why
>
>this is me getting in on the ground floor BTW, when the US
>gets good & wins a world cup which WILL happen...im gonna
>empty a clip inna di air for the stars & stripes
>
>

>we should dominate soccer & be up there with the brazils &
>argentinas of the world, it is simply unamerican to not be the
>best
>
>we have plenty of every other countries ppl here.
>
>@ this point we got kids who HAVE grown up & played soccer all
>their lives
>
>theres a lot of interest
>
>yet...consistently hosed
>
>why
>
>this is me getting in on the ground floor BTW, when the US
>gets good & wins a world cup which WILL happen...im gonna
>empty a clip inna di air for the stars & stripes
>
>

I have a NASL doc I can inbox you if you want that gives some history. You actually lived through the 70s so you'll probably have some perspective on it when you watch it. Just let me know and I'll upload it.

B. you kinda have to watch the game more often at the club level and you'll see why. Were still playing with kids of soccer moms. Only now are we starting to see kids that grew up playing AND watching and it's a ginormous expectation to demand a win at national level on a sport this big when the sport isnt a priority like the Olympics.

We're great at basketball, not only because we invented it, but kids play it as soon as they learn to walk. We're still young in the game.

But yeah. If you really wanna get in on the ground floor, you're gonna need to watch the season games. National games don't come around often enough to ge acclimated to what you're looking at. Thats another problem, Americans are only interested in the spectacle of a national game rather than being genuinely interested so when a half expected L comes along like this, there a lot of misguided butthurt because they're not even really following what's going on off the field.

But good on you for getting down with The Sport of the Future©

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they go to school at the club's special school for them and only them.

they play in tournaments and get judged by whether or not they play the right way, not whether or not they win (winning being unimportant at that age). they get paid as professionals as early as age 16.

we don't care nearly as much.

-----------
It's only funny till someone gets mad. Then it's hilarious.

Which I understand you're prone to doing, but it doesn't help answer Bin's question of why the US isn't as good as our population and wealth would suggest.

\m/

in european countries, top players are trained for soccer exclusively starting as early as age 11. they live in soccer only academies and are trained in particular styles of play in those academies. the elite few players play together as a team from age 12 on and the best talent from around the world gets poached by those academies. leo messi, for example, would have been able to play for spain's national team if he had chosen to. de rossi is a prime american example of that--poached from the US due to spending his teen years training in italy for a club academy.

the US has a lot of money, but soccer isn't the primary sport. and i'm not talking about having a pool of talent, i'm talking about having that style of infrastructure and it being supported by pro league money. it's like each nfl team had an academy from age 12 training players in *their* offense and *their* defense. Imagine how good players would be if that were their entire training. Imagine how fundamentally more skilled NBA players would be if AAU teams were linked to specific pro teams that ran specific offenses and defenses and drilled players in those fundamentals as opposed to just being a glorified exhibition league. that's what the US is competing against*.

spain was an easy example. i was trying to be quick and useful to someone who doesn't follow soccer and thinks we should dominate.

edit: also, the paid as pros at 16 is actually an england thing and not a spain thing--spanish teams can pay players as pros till they're 18. that's how english teams poach la masia most effectively--earlier pro pay days. and he said talk to him slow. going into detail wasn't the goal, fwiw.

*and there's effort to try to create something like that, the MLS is helping, but it's a minnow compared to euro academies. and the US's inability to stick to a specific style of play is hurting that effort as well--and the style they've now picked, i'm not sure is smart. trendy, but not playing to the US' advantages, imo (and celery's too i think).
-----------
It's only funny till someone gets mad. Then it's hilarious.

And it isn't going to happen, at any rate, for an infinite number of cultural, economic, and educational reasons.

We already produce players good enough to do very well in international and foreign club competitions. We just don't produce enough of them. If every US player was the caliber of Donovan, Dempsey, Howard, and lately Bradley, we'd be a fantastic international side, because those guys are proven top players internationally--Donovan has been superb in his loan spells at Everton, Howard is a top-class EPL keeper, Dempsey has evolved into a top EPL scorer, and Bradley is becoming a top Serie A mid. The problem, then, is that the rest of the USMNT needs to at least approach that level of talent, and they by and large don't. Unless you really think that back four is gonna magically turn into Manchester United's...

But the capability to produce players competitive in international competition is clearly there. Just need a full XI of them.

\m/

>And it isn't going to happen, at any rate, for an infinite
>number of cultural, economic, and educational reasons.

that's fair enough and i agree. but my point was not to say "this is what we must do" but rather "this is what we're up against." there's likely an alternative method (in fact, there clearly is: brazil doesn't do the academy system the same way, i believe) that's available to the US. but the reason the us isn't winning at soccer is not just a lack of will, it's a significant drop-off in the infrastructure needed to win.

>We already produce players good enough to do very well in
>international and foreign club competitions. We just don't
>produce enough of them.

umm...agreed. ? the academy doesn't necessarily make better top players, but it does make more of them. the list of 4 or 5 americans are the exception that prove the rule and generally, they're still not top tier stars in the game.

If every US player was the caliber of
>Donovan, Dempsey, Howard, and lately Bradley, we'd be a
>fantastic international side, because those guys are proven
>top players internationally

they're internationals and pretty good, but i don't know that any of them get into the top 50 players internationally. maybe near the bottom of that top 50 (excluding goalies. how does the US keep producing good goalies?).

>becoming a top Serie A mid. The problem, then, is that the
>rest of the USMNT needs to at least approach that level of
>talent, and they by and large don't. Unless you really think
>that back four is gonna magically turn into Manchester
>United's...

indeed. but one way to ensure a full starting XI is to work towards that in a systematic pattern. the US does not have that. and because of it, instead of getting generations of players who play together well, you get a couple guys who bring hope and a starting XI with gigantic holes to fill. Fabian Johnson might fill one, but now there's a CB concern.

>But the capability to produce players competitive in
>international competition is clearly there. Just need a full
>XI of them.

take the top 5 teams in the world and tell me that the US has more than 2 players that would regularly play in their national side. the US is a second tier squad and needs to do something fundamentally different, imo, to move up the next rung. It's like MLB--it's easy to go from 75 wins to 85, but that next hurdle to 90+ and the playoffs is where it gets hard. the US is an 85 game winner, but bin was asking how to get to 90+. Just believing it will happen in the future is not gonna cut it.

-----------
It's only funny till someone gets mad. Then it's hilarious.

>it's a
>significant drop-off in the infrastructure needed to win.

And this is where we disagree. The reason I asked Bin to rank sports in order of his love for them is because I'm pretty sure that, like most Americans, soccer doesn't rank very highly. Using myself as an example--a typical suburban white kid who grew up in the '80s--I played organized baseball, basketball, tennis, and soccer. But I LOVED baseball, and my kid dreams about playing professionally centered on that sport. I was good at soccer, but that was just what I played in the fall. Other kids love football. Some basketball. In certain parts of the country it's hockey. But in the US, it's exceptionally rare that a kid focuses on soccer. It just isn't a very culturally important sport.

In Spain and elsewhere, on the other hand, chances are VERY good that a kid focuses on soccer, because that's the sport of primary cultural importance.

So that's not infrastructure--that's just what we're conditioned to value. It's a tired adage to say that if more of our best athletes played soccer instead of ________, we'd be a lot better in World Cups, but it's absolutely true. Just imagine if all the great athletes absorbed by just ONE of our major sports--the NFL for example--instead played soccer. Imagine a situation in which Devin Hester, Maurice Jones-Drew, Calvin Johnson, Charles Woodson, and Larry Fitzgerald all grew up wanting to be pro soccer players, and worked as hard at that as they did football. I mean, what kind of terrifying, undefendable striker would Megatron be? Goddamn.

>umm...agreed. ? the academy doesn't necessarily make better
>top players, but it does make more of them. the list of 4 or 5
>americans are the exception that prove the rule and generally,
>they're still not top tier stars in the game.

But putting aside keepers for the moment, since there is this weird thing with great US keepers, think back to just 10-15 years ago. How many US players were legitimate, quality starters on an EPL, A, 1, Liga, or Bundesliga side? McBride? Reyna? Who else? Maybe Harkes and Wynalda? And now 25-30 years ago: was there anybody at all?

Point is, in 2012 most of the USMNT plays in the top foreign leagues, or at least in the SPL or Eredivisie or Portugal. And that's a good indication of the increase in overall quality of the players we produce. Things are heading, albeit slowly, in the right direction.

>they're internationals and pretty good, but i don't know that
>any of them get into the top 50 players internationally. maybe
>near the bottom of that top 50 (excluding goalies. how does
>the US keep producing good goalies?).

Well, I ain't saying Clint Dempsey is world-class. We're not there yet. But he certainly is EPL-class, and that's pretty serious business. and really, I don't think we need to worry about producing top-50 players to be a real threat in international play. The top end of US quality is fine, is what I'm saying. The bottom end just needs to come up. Imagine a Spain squad consisting of Silva, Xavi, Iniesta, and Alonso, but then just a bunch of guys who aren't really good enough for La Liga. That sounds like some outstanding individual midfield play and a hell of a lot of group-stage exits, no?

>take the top 5 teams in the world and tell me that the US has
>more than 2 players that would regularly play in their
>national side. the US is a second tier squad and needs to do
>something fundamentally different, imo, to move up the next
>rung.

I just don't think so. The continued success of MLS and more TV exposure of foreign leagues through FSC, Gol, and ESPN means that soccer becomes more culturally ingrained, and more kids not just play it but PRIORITIZE it over the other options. I mean, again: Megatron as striker. The athletes are there; they just have to want pro soccer more than the NFL, NBA, or MLB.

\m/

that's the old american way of thinking: build a better athlete and then win. I don't think that will work--the best american players (and the best spanish players, and many of the best brazilian players, etc) would not be good at other sports. Leo Messi is 5'4 on a good day. imagine landon donovan trying to play football or baseball or basketball.

it's a different game with a different athlete required. i don't think it's simply that we need the good athletes to want to play it, nor do I think that will be possible without some really serious financial changes--nfl, baseball, etc. aren't going to lose their prominence without far more changes.

your story of improvement over the last 25-30 years fits precisely with my baseball analogy. the US went from 75 to 85 wins. to get to the playoffs, it needs to find a niche of some sort to win with. i don't think bigger/stronger is the route to go, but that's what the megatron as striker argument boils down to.

-----------
It's only funny till someone gets mad. Then it's hilarious.

I'm not saying bigger/stronger is the goal. I'm saying that all of our best athletes need to be more inclined to focus on soccer, regardless of height/weight. If you'd prefer, I can list smaller athletes in other sports. I mean, Muggsy Bogues was a phenomenal athlete, but he chose basketball. Is that short enough?

\m/

the US has 300 million people. Spain has 30 million. if 1/10 of our athletes picked soccer, you really think we'd be spain's equal just like that?

i used the megatron thing as an example--the kids with soccer builds aren't off playing football or baseball or hockey even. it's not just athletic prowess that the US is lacking. when the US was terrible in the 90s, the one thing the US could try to use was its athletic advantage. but that's too easily beaten by a skilled team in soccer.

our soccer players, as pure athletes, are as good as any other country's soccer players. the weakness of US soccer players is not athleticism at all--the team is world class in that aspect--but skill and style. Megatron or wes welker wouldn't help with that deficiency unless they were trained.

-----------
It's only funny till someone gets mad. Then it's hilarious.

>the US has 300 million people. Spain has 30 million. if 1/10
>of our athletes picked soccer, you really think we'd be
>spain's equal just like that?

Within a generation or two, yes, absolutely. The US produces wonderful athletes, who nearly all play other sports.

>i used the megatron thing as an example--the kids with soccer
>builds

You mean little tiny Messi? Or long, freaky Peter Crouch? Zidane, CR7, and Kaka are all 6'1" and of regular build. They won the same Ballon D'Ors as Messi. Or what about Yaya Touré? He looks like a linebacker. He's freakin' awesome. Wayne Rooney is 5'9" and doesn't even look like an athlete, really. He looks like he belongs in a pub. He's awesome too. Dani Alves has the musculature of a fruit fly. His teams win everything. Micah Richards has the musculature of a heavyweight boxer. Man City just won the league.

Now, there's probably a height at which you get a little too lanky to be useful on a soccer pitch, and you don't need much in the way of upper-body strength, but pretty much the soccer "build" is anywhere from about 5'2" to about 6'8", and just about any body type will do, as long as you can run for a good long while.

>aren't off playing football or baseball or hockey even.
>it's not just athletic prowess that the US is lacking. when
>the US was terrible in the 90s, the one thing the US could try
>to use was its athletic advantage. but that's too easily
>beaten by a skilled team in soccer.
>
>our soccer players, as pure athletes, are as good as any other
>country's soccer players. the weakness of US soccer players is
>not athleticism at all--the team is world class in that
>aspect--but skill and style. Megatron or wes welker wouldn't
>help with that deficiency unless they were trained.

THEY WOULD BE TRAINED IF THEY TRAINED IN SOCCER INSTEAD OF THE SPORTS THEY TRAINED IN. Christ, this isn't hard to understand. If Wes Welker, instead of spending thousands upon thousands upon thousands of hours practicing route running and catching balls and studying playbooks, spent that time dribbling and passing and studying tactics, he'd probably be one hellacious soccer player. Would he be as good at it as he is at football? Who knows? Doesn't matter. The point is that he, like most Americans, prioritize other sports before soccer. If more kids prioritized soccer, well, America would probably produce a lot more great soccer players.

It really is that simple. There's nothing mystical about the sport of soccer.

\m/

peter crouch is unique. there's crouch and zlatan and...?

>Now, there's probably a height at which you get a little too
>lanky to be useful on a soccer pitch, and you don't need much
>in the way of upper-body strength, but pretty much the soccer
>"build" is anywhere from about 5'2" to about 6'8", and just
>about any body type will do, as long as you can run for a good
>long while.

the point is, lebron james wouldn't actually be a great soccer player, nor would calvin johnson or the others you used as an example. it's an entirely different athletic base--it's why Lebron was talked about as a potential TE and not as a potential striker. because the athletic talents he took to south beach wouldn't translate to soccer. but that's whatever.

>THEY WOULD BE TRAINED IF THEY TRAINED IN SOCCER INSTEAD OF THE
>SPORTS THEY TRAINED IN. Christ, this isn't hard to understand.

ironically, my response is the same. this isn't hard--the soccer players in the US WHO PLAY SOCCER ARE WORLD CLASS ATHLETES. they are equal to the other soccer teams in the world in terms of athletic ability. That's not where the problem is--and the idea that the US can "out-athlete" other countries in soccer is pretty doubtful considering the teams at the top of the pile aren't generally great athletic specimens compared to others.

Landon Donovan was a soccer player from day one. this generation of players are soccer players from day one--they grew up playing soccer and only soccer as their one sport. but they're just not that skillful. why? there are two options. one is the brazilian "we play with a can in the streets" approach that teaches skills. the other is the european "we train them in academies" approach that teaches skills. the second is far more possible than the first.

>If Wes Welker, instead of spending thousands upon thousands
>upon thousands of hours practicing route running and catching
>balls and studying playbooks, spent that time dribbling and
>passing and studying tactics, he'd probably be one hellacious
>soccer player. Would he be as good at it as he is at football?
>Who knows? Doesn't matter. The point is that he, like most
>Americans, prioritize other sports before soccer. If more kids
>prioritized soccer, well, America would probably produce a lot
>more great soccer players.

but the US has 10x the population of Spain and even more X the population of, say, the Netherlands. Thus, if 1/10th of the athletes in the US played soccer, that'd be MORE than in Spain (because some of them do play basketball and other sports as well). Yet, they'd still be much worse. why? because there isn't a standard style of play. it'd be the same shit where the US players aren't able to consistently play quick balls, organize themselves properly and control the game. but athletically? they're there.

Where, right now, is there an athletic divide between the quality of the US player and the other teams? nowhere. the divide is 100% skill.

>It really is that simple. There's nothing mystical about the
>sport of soccer.

no there isn't. but this idea that all the US needs is a larger player pool is why the US will continue to never make it to the top tier. there is something useful/advantageous/critical to not just having lots of athletes kicking a ball but rather lots of athletes playing a specific style of game.

the funny thing is you're demanding an entire cultural change in terms of sports that the US plays/loves. I actually just think the US needs to create a better training system for the kids who do play/love soccer already.
-----------
It's only funny till someone gets mad. Then it's hilarious.

>peter crouch is unique. there's crouch and zlatan and...?

And, JUST on one team, Man City, all 6'2" or more, no keepers:

Vincent Kompany 6'4"
Joleon Lescott 6'4"
Emanuel Adebayor 6'5" (still technically a City player)
Edin Dzeko 6'4"
Roque Santa Cruz 6'4"
Mario Balotelli 6'2"
Yaya Touré 6'3"

Or United:

Rio Ferdinand 6'2 1/2"
Jonny Evans 6'2"
Dimitar Berbatov 6'2 1/2"
Chris Smalling 6'4"
Nemanja Vidic 6'2"
Michael Carrick 6'2"
Bébé 6'3"

Most players are between about 5'8" and 6'0". Why? Is it some special soccer build? Some weird thing about soccer? Or maybe it has something to do with this: http://www.allcountries.org/uscensus/230_cumulative_percent_distribution_of_population_by.html

In fact most Western human males are between those heights, as you, someone who knows something about statistics, should recognize. I myself am 6'4" on the nose, which puts me in the 99th percentile in the US, meaning that 99% of American men are shorter than I am. That's weird to me, because I'm hardly freakishly tall. Given that US heights are more or less in line with most of Western Europe, excluding the super-tall Scandinavians, it's pretty clear that to play soccer, you just have to be like almost everybody else.

>the point is, lebron james wouldn't actually be a great soccer
>player, nor would calvin johnson or the others you used as an
>example. it's an entirely different athletic base--it's why
>Lebron was talked about as a potential TE and not as a
>potential striker. because the athletic talents he took to
>south beach wouldn't translate to soccer. but that's
>whatever.

You're saying that if Calvin Johnson, 6'5", instead of doing all that football training he did, trained heavily in soccer instead, he still wouldn't be any good at soccer? Or are you saying that somebody who lifted weights for football all his life would train in soccer...but still lift weights for football? Because, uh, they probably wouldn't. Chances are they'd train for soccer. I'm not talking about transporting a current NFL player to the San Siro and letting him loose. I'm talking about guys training for soccer from the get-go. I mean, if we put Rio Ferdinand on a cycle of juice and had him do powerlifting routines for a year or so, then yeah, his effectiveness on the pitch would probably be pretty limited.

>ironically, my response is the same. this isn't hard--the
>soccer players in the US WHO PLAY SOCCER ARE WORLD CLASS
>ATHLETES. they are equal to the other soccer teams in the
>world in terms of athletic ability. That's not where the
>problem is--and the idea that the US can "out-athlete" other
>countries in soccer is pretty doubtful considering the teams
>at the top of the pile aren't generally great athletic
>specimens compared to others.

And for the third time, that's not what I'm saying. For the third time, IF our great athletes played soccer instead of _________, we'd be a lot better. They do not. That's not "out-athleting." That's being better at soccer.

>Landon Donovan was a soccer player from day one. this
>generation of players are soccer players from day one--they
>grew up playing soccer and only soccer as their one sport. but
>they're just not that skillful. why? there are two options.
>one is the brazilian "we play with a can in the streets"
>approach that teaches skills. the other is the european "we
>train them in academies" approach that teaches skills. the
>second is far more possible than the first.

How? Kids in the US play shit in the streets all the time. I spent hours and hours with my friends playing hoops and wiffle ball and football. Just like most American kids. Why is not possible for kids to play soccer, in your mind?

>but the US has 10x the population of Spain and even more X the
>population of, say, the Netherlands. Thus, if 1/10th of the
>athletes in the US played soccer, that'd be MORE than in Spain
>(because some of them do play basketball and other sports as
>well). Yet, they'd still be much worse. why? because there
>isn't a standard style of play. it'd be the same shit where
>the US players aren't able to consistently play quick balls,
>organize themselves properly and control the game. but
>athletically? they're there.

Why? Can you prove that? Seems arbitrary. Are Americans unable to organize properly by genetics or something? Football would seem to refute that argument. I don't think you have any basis for saying that.

>Where, right now, is there an athletic divide between the
>quality of the US player and the other teams? nowhere. the
>divide is 100% skill.

And we'd be more skilled if more kids prioritized soccer. I got really skilled at baseball when I was a kid, because I played it constantly. I did not get very skilled at water polo, because I never played it at all. See the connection?

>the funny thing is you're demanding an entire cultural change

No I'm not. In fact, by asking for some Euro-style academy system, which is completely counter to existing US sports infrastructure (youth leagues, high school, college, etc.), I'm pretty sure it's you who wants massive change. I just want more and more TV coverage and for MLS to do as well as possible, and thus for the US to continue to produce more, however gradually, players capable of performing well at the top levels of the sport.

\m/

Naw, Jersey hit it on the head.

There is no style of play here in america. it's just like cuisine.

What's american cuisine?

Hamburgers and Fries?

That isn't even american cuisine, and we simple don't have one.Soccer in america has that same crisis.

The american way of playing soccer does not exist, and the fact that a german coach was acquired to lead the USMNST, is a testament that there isn't an american way, or that the american way is to replicate how other countries play soccer.

America just does not have the culture, background, or honesty to be a true soccer kindgom, because what's needed to be great can't be purchased or financed. You can't build it in a lab, or borrow it from other nations. It does not work that way. It has to be in the DNA. It has to be in the culture. You just can't put a league together, and then ,later on, slap a british face on it, and expect the foundation of soccer to change overnight...lol

( MLS is in america, but beckham is the face..lol Landon aint even the face of MLS)

Also,America is a very lazy country...The world caught up with us in basketball, and then kicked our ass in the olympics. What did we do? WE sent pro players, instead of setting up a true basketball academy for high school players and college players to be on the same level.

( side note: Plus, one of the main goals is to make billions off of the pro players playing in the Olympics, more so than it is about getting true glory. The Olympics are making tons of money off of of the presence of lebron,kobe, etc.)


MLS, and most of the soccer coverage you see in america is for one thing only : High Yield investments .....You think a lot of these american investors are buying soccer clubs because they love soccer, and they want championship glory?.....Please....You think NBC picked up the broadcast rights to MLS because they are enamored with the play of donovan? ..please-----> $

You can be dishonest to all the other sports in the world, and get a chance to taste glory, but not with soccer. You cannot be culturally and spiritually dishonest to soccer...

Also, American soccer goes all the way back to 1930, where America came in third in the World Cup. Based on that statistic, we should be up their with the brasils and italys of the world right now... It's going on 100 years, but we're still talking about how soccer is still new in america.

So what happened? ..The yankees happened.


I'm willing to say that had the yankees not taken over baseball, or had baseball not taken over america, a lot of sports like track cycling ( used to be the greatest sport in america) and soccer would have truly won america over.


What's happening now? ...Lebron and Durant are happening, and mugs still aren't thinking about soccer.

\m/

i will have to rethink my argument.

-----------
It's only funny till someone gets mad. Then it's hilarious.

Evidently we're lazy and we eat hamburgers. I think your argument touched on other areas than those.

\m/

1. Yes, we're lazy. Germany just spent like 20 million on its youth program. I believe that is more than what america spends on it main National team. Instead of taking the time , financially and physically, to really invest in soccer, america expects to win just by showing up and being american. " we're american so we're entitled to glory" . Bin's post proves that.

You're not going to win that way.


2- Our version of soccer is Ketchup and French Fries, with no style or grace to it whatsoever. It's a number 4 mc donalds meal deal, instead of being a finely prepared delicacy, where the ingredients are chopped, sliced and marinated to perfection.


And even when we import talent, the sucking still continues, because people become Americanized. America sucks the culture right out of you , and strips you of your true identity. Shit, even Donovan plays better in the EPL than he does in America, and so does Clint.

This country would have to be destroyed, and then recreated for america to ever have a shot at winning the WC .... The existence is too GENERIC to be a true football culture.

\m/

Thanx, sir.

You post with so much maturity and honesty....and your name calling is grand.


Thank you for your great feedback.

Everything you typed is both wrong and utterly unrelated to what jersey and I were discussing, but I shouldn't have called you an idiot.

\m/