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Subject: "Did Sampling Clearance REALLY Change Hip Hop?!?!?!" Previous topic | Next topic
Kil
Member since Oct 06th 2005
971 posts
Sun May-14-17 07:47 PM

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"Did Sampling Clearance REALLY Change Hip Hop?!?!?!"


  

          

Got into a debate on twitter about did sampling clearance REALLY change hip hop? Everybody was saying yes but I never understood it. The whole Gilbert O Sullivan/Biz case which everyone says was the turning point who sampling laws was in 1992. So if that "changed the game" SO much why does 90% of hip hop post '92 many that are considered classics (Mecca & the Soul Brother, Hard To Earn, The Sun Rises, Enter the Wu, Midnight Marauders, Low End Theory, The Score, One For All, Fantastic Vol. 2, etc.) all have samples on damn near every song? And now 25 years later everybody from the biggest cats like Drake & Kendrick to the underground folk like Evidence & Freeway are STILL sampling. And I get it, a song here and a song there couldn't be cleared so it didn't make the album but is THAT really ruining hip hop? I'm not saying the laws didn't change the fame but did it REALLY ruin it? Hell, I feel like the Swizz Beats era did more damage in stopping cats from sampling then the laws did. And once Jay dropped The Blueprint all of the sampling started right back up! Hell, Ye & Just's whole careers are built on samples so again, how the did laws REALLY change hip hop? Check out the newest ep of my podcast where I've got 5 hip hop heads on tap trying to explain this to me and I STILL don't get it smdh.

http://www.willmakebeatsforfood.com/2017/05/the-corner-radio-hosted-by-kil-how-did.html

So my questions for the boards are can anyone explain to me how it REALLY messed up hip hop? And two how did you feel about Lord Finesse suing Mac Miller for using Finesse's beat? And three, how do ya'll feel about folk sampling songs that JUST came out like Jay sampling the Menahan Street Band or J Cole sampling Jennifer Hudson?

The Corner Radio Podcast Hosted by Kil
@Kil889
www.willmakebeatsforfood.com
www.soundcloud.com/kil889

  

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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
RE: Oh hey, a new discussion topic!
May 14th 2017
1
RE: Oh hey, a new discussion topic!
May 15th 2017
5
      RE: Fuck you.
May 18th 2017
35
           RE: Fuck you.
May 22nd 2017
43
           RE: Fuck you.
May 23rd 2017
45
                RE: Dude.
May 23rd 2017
47
                     RE: Dude.
May 28th 2017
57
                          RE: L
May 28th 2017
58
                               you didn't stop his grind...
May 31st 2017
59
                                    RE: By that logic. . .
Jun 01st 2017
60
RE: Did Sampling Clearance REALLY Change Hip Hop?!?!?!
May 14th 2017
2
RE: Did Sampling Clearance REALLY Change Hip Hop?!?!?!
May 15th 2017
6
The sample laws brought us more garbage
May 15th 2017
10
      RE: The sample laws brought us more garbage
May 15th 2017
11
      RE: The sample laws brought us more garbage
May 15th 2017
12
      Regarding Pete and others....
May 16th 2017
20
boom!
May 15th 2017
3
You're making two entirely different claims. CHANGE or RUIN?
May 15th 2017
4
RE: You're making two entirely different claims. CHANGE or RUIN?
May 15th 2017
7
I don't think that was the real turning point.
May 15th 2017
8
RE: I don't think that was the real turning point.
May 15th 2017
9
I feel ya lol.
May 15th 2017
15
RE: I don't think that was the real turning point.
May 15th 2017
13
      RE: I don't think that was the real turning point.
May 15th 2017
16
           RE: I don't think that was the real turning point.
May 15th 2017
17
                Definitely money motivated...
May 16th 2017
18
                     RE: Definitely money motivated...
May 16th 2017
21
They didn't change Hip Hop. They changed the business of Hip Hop
May 15th 2017
14
RE: They didn't change Hip Hop. They changed the business of Hip Hop
May 17th 2017
24
Three things come to mind
May 16th 2017
19
RE: Three things come to mind
May 16th 2017
22
      The power of the ASR-10, most underrated machine in hiphop history
May 16th 2017
23
           all hail czar
May 17th 2017
25
           RE: all hail czar
May 17th 2017
31
           Where can I get a copy of this sample tape?!
May 17th 2017
26
                Now? I have no idea.
May 17th 2017
27
                RE: Where can I get a copy of this sample tape?!
May 17th 2017
29
                     this is good. thanks
May 18th 2017
34
sampling laws definitely have an effect on younger producers
May 17th 2017
28
RE: sampling laws definitely have an effect on younger producers
May 17th 2017
30
      no idea. it was interpolated by g koop
May 17th 2017
32
           RE: no idea. it was interpolated by g koop
May 19th 2017
36
           RE: no idea. it was interpolated by g koop
May 21st 2017
38
yeah, it did
May 18th 2017
33
Sampling songs that just came out, fine by me
May 19th 2017
37
RE: Sampling songs that just came out, fine by me
May 21st 2017
39
      Sample interpolations, more creative chopping, original arrangements
May 21st 2017
40
You're using the wrong case.
May 21st 2017
41
RE: You're using the wrong case.
May 22nd 2017
42
      That case established the minimum time to qualify as infringement
May 23rd 2017
44
           RE: That case established the minimum time to qualify as infringement
May 23rd 2017
46
                that's cool
May 24th 2017
48
                     RE: that's cool
May 24th 2017
49
                          K
May 25th 2017
51
A question that I always had was
May 24th 2017
50
RE: A question that I always had was
May 25th 2017
52
      RE: That's out of hand:
May 25th 2017
53
The People vs Biz Markie and J-Lo vs The Beatnuts
May 27th 2017
54
RE: https://imgflip.com/s/meme/Captain-Picard-Facepalm.jpg
May 27th 2017
55
RE: The People vs Biz Markie and J-Lo vs The Beatnuts
May 27th 2017
56
Drake just won a sampling case with "fair use" argument, so
Jun 01st 2017
61
RE: Drake just won a sampling case with "fair use" argument, so
Jun 02nd 2017
62

Austin
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Sun May-14-17 10:22 PM

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1. "RE: Oh hey, a new discussion topic!"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

**AND** a link to your podcast?

How did we get so lucky?


os·ti·na·to
/ˌästəˈnädō/
noun
a continually repeated musical phrase or rhythm

http://austinato.bandcamp.com

https://www.discogs.com/lists/Favorites-of-2017/332378

  

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Kil
Member since Oct 06th 2005
971 posts
Mon May-15-17 10:03 AM

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5. "RE: Oh hey, a new discussion topic!"
In response to Reply # 1


  

          

What can I say? Every now and then cats gotta get the winning lotto numbers right?

The Corner Radio Podcast Hosted by Kil
@Kil889
www.willmakebeatsforfood.com
www.soundcloud.com/kil889

  

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Austin
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Thu May-18-17 03:08 PM

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35. "RE: Fuck you."
In response to Reply # 5


  

          


os·ti·na·to
/ˌästəˈnädō/
noun
a continually repeated musical phrase or rhythm

http://austinato.bandcamp.com

https://www.discogs.com/lists/Favorites-of-2017/332378

  

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Kil
Member since Oct 06th 2005
971 posts
Mon May-22-17 11:20 PM

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43. "RE: Fuck you."
In response to Reply # 35


  

          

Bahahahahaha...why you mad bruh?

The Corner Radio Podcast Hosted by Kil
@Kil889
www.willmakebeatsforfood.com
www.soundcloud.com/kil889

  

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Kil
Member since Oct 06th 2005
971 posts
Tue May-23-17 11:59 AM

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45. "RE: Fuck you."
In response to Reply # 35


  

          

Bruh...are you from Philly? Did I rob you or something growing up? Pick on you & your friends at Leed's playground? Get your sister pregnant or something? Seriously bruh...where's all this hostility coming from? You the dude who wanted to play smart ass first & foremost smdh.

The Corner Radio Podcast Hosted by Kil
@Kil889
www.willmakebeatsforfood.com
www.soundcloud.com/kil889

  

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Austin
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Tue May-23-17 08:58 PM

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47. "RE: Dude."
In response to Reply # 45


  

          

You are shilling for clicks to your pointless, irrelevant podcast on one of the biggest "has-been" forums on the internet. In conjunction, the subject of your stupid "show" is hilariously outdated.

Meanwhile, if you actually did rob someone, bully someone, or knock-up and subsequently abandon a female at any time in your life —and then, have proceeded to make light of any of those actions— it basically confirms that you are the scumbag that I surmised you to be from your idiotic promo posting.

Reassess your life.


os·ti·na·to
/ˌästəˈnädō/
noun
a continually repeated musical phrase or rhythm

http://austinato.bandcamp.com

https://www.discogs.com/lists/Favorites-of-2017/332378

  

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Kil
Member since Oct 06th 2005
971 posts
Sun May-28-17 01:42 AM

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57. "RE: Dude."
In response to Reply # 47


  

          

>You are shilling for clicks to your pointless, irrelevant
>podcast on one of the biggest "has-been" forums on the
>internet. In conjunction, the subject of your stupid "show"
>is hilariously outdated.

Wow...my show is "stupid" and the subject is hilariously outdated huh? Welp for an outdated subject my post is STILL on the front page damn near 3 weeks later with over 1,000 views so ummmm...how outdated is it?
>
>Meanwhile, if you actually did rob someone, bully someone, or
>knock-up and subsequently abandon a female at any time in your
>life —and then, have proceeded to make light of any of those
>actions— it basically confirms that you are the scumbag that
>I surmised you to be from your idiotic promo posting.

Wow...I'm a "scumbag?" What are you stuck in the 80's still watching Alf, Back to The Future & Give Me A Break?

>
>Reassess your life.
>
>
I'll reassess my life when you reassess your wack bandcamp page. How bout this bruh...until you're a moderator on the boards (who obviously have no problem with my shameless promotion) why don't you just keep to yourself or join in on the convo cause ummmm...the numbers show you're the one losing.
>os·ti·na·to
>/ˌästəˈnädō/
>noun
>a continually repeated musical phrase or rhythm
>
>http://austinato.bandcamp.com
>
>https://www.discogs.com/lists/Favorites-of-2017/332378

The Corner Radio Podcast Hosted by Kil
@Kil889
www.willmakebeatsforfood.com
www.soundcloud.com/kil889

  

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Austin
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9418 posts
Sun May-28-17 12:25 PM

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58. "RE: L"
In response to Reply # 57


  

          


os·ti·na·to
/ˌästəˈnädō/
noun
a continually repeated musical phrase or rhythm

http://austinato.bandcamp.com

https://www.discogs.com/lists/Favorites-of-2017/332378

  

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The3rdOne
Charter member
9105 posts
Wed May-31-17 09:36 AM

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59. "you didn't stop his grind..."
In response to Reply # 58


  

          

so therefore you hold the L

  

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Austin
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Thu Jun-01-17 12:59 PM

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60. "RE: By that logic. . ."
In response to Reply # 59


  

          

. . .Lisa lost because Bart didn't stop going for the cupcake.

Context:
http://media.giphy.com/media/14xSZmhnD4Fjyw/giphy.gif



os·ti·na·to
/ˌästəˈnädō/
noun
a continually repeated musical phrase or rhythm

http://austinato.bandcamp.com

https://www.discogs.com/lists/Favorites-of-2017/332378

  

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double 0
Member since Nov 17th 2004
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Sun May-14-17 11:02 PM

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2. "RE: Did Sampling Clearance REALLY Change Hip Hop?!?!?!"
In response to Reply # 0


          

Sample Clearance issues didnt begin and end with Biz.... theyve been ongoing...

Lotta cats from golden era never saw a dime off their big records cuz a small chop was uncleared..

Not sure how much it changed the art (most major label artists clear the records anyway) but the underlying boogieman has made it so some make very different musical decisions than they would've if it wasnt an issue..

But you are right we got classics AFTER sample clearing came on the radar so we cant say it did THAT much

Double 0
DJ/Producer/Artist
Producer in Kidz In The Hall
-------------------------------------------
twitter: @godouble0
IG: @godouble0
www.thinklikearapper.com

  

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Kil
Member since Oct 06th 2005
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Mon May-15-17 10:07 AM

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6. "RE: Did Sampling Clearance REALLY Change Hip Hop?!?!?!"
In response to Reply # 2


  

          

And I think that's always been my point. The first time I ever even heard of sampling laws was Stetsasonic's Talking All That Jazz and that was '88 so this has been going on for a LOOOONG minute. Like I said sometimes people blame the hip hop we have now on these sampling laws and I don't see what one has to do with the other smdh.

The Corner Radio Podcast Hosted by Kil
@Kil889
www.willmakebeatsforfood.com
www.soundcloud.com/kil889

  

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Nick Has a Problem...Seriously
Member since Dec 25th 2010
16580 posts
Mon May-15-17 10:42 AM

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10. "The sample laws brought us more garbage"
In response to Reply # 2


  

          

The keyboard era made more people try their hands at producing. That's why we have so much trash now.

It also changed the amount of samples people use. Just look at Pete Rock. Big difference in his early 90s work vs his post Elektra work.

******************************************
Falcons, Braves, Bulldogs and Hawks

Geto Boys, Poison Clan, UGK, Eightball & MJG, OutKast, Goodie Mob

  

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Kil
Member since Oct 06th 2005
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Mon May-15-17 11:10 AM

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11. "RE: The sample laws brought us more garbage"
In response to Reply # 10


  

          

True indeed...swizz had everybody throwing away their records and coppin' a keyboard. I also think a lot of cats saw all that money Swizz was pocketing by not sampling and figured they would try their hands at it.

The Corner Radio Podcast Hosted by Kil
@Kil889
www.willmakebeatsforfood.com
www.soundcloud.com/kil889

  

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double 0
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12. "RE: The sample laws brought us more garbage"
In response to Reply # 10


          

The swizz beatz era happens WELL after the sample lawsuit of biz (1991)...

Puff was sampling WHOLE songs from the 80s in 1997. In fact the swizz era just overtakes the sample era on the same album.. Dame Grease gave us sample heavy DMX smashes but for some reason swizz records REALLY blew..

Double 0
DJ/Producer/Artist
Producer in Kidz In The Hall
-------------------------------------------
twitter: @godouble0
IG: @godouble0
www.thinklikearapper.com

  

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Ishwip
Member since Jun 10th 2005
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Tue May-16-17 02:29 PM

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20. "Regarding Pete and others...."
In response to Reply # 10


          

>It also changed the amount of samples people use. Just look at
>Pete Rock. Big difference in his early 90s work vs his post
>Elektra work.

I always assumed that was also driven by a change in styles and preferences. Instead of the "drums from here, horn from this, bassline from there" style cats started freaking the one record either through chops (look at what I did to this sample) or the obscurity factor (look what I found on this Brazilian joint).

Idk, really interesting topic as I do wonder in some other dimension where sample laws didn't exist or at least ones not as stringent as we have now what would hip-hop sound like if producers had more free reign?



__
I don't like the beat anymore because its just a loop. ALC didn't FLIP IT ENOUGH!

Flip it enough? Flip these. Flip off. Go flip some f*cking burgers.(c)Kno

Allied State of the National Electric Beat Treaty Organization (NEBTO)

  

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My_SP1200_Broken_Again
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3. "boom!"
In response to Reply # 0
Mon May-15-17 07:50 AM by My_SP1200_Broken_Aga

  

          

>the Swizz Beats era did more damage in stopping cats from
>sampling then the laws did.



^^^ you hit it on the head here


Those "2 finger keyboard beats" were appealing to certain producers since they were free of the potential sample clearance headaches... and they were even MORE appealing to the labels who were always looking to cut costs..



>how do ya'll feel about folk sampling songs that JUST came out like Jay sampling >the Menahan Street Band or J Cole sampling Jennifer Hudson?


Its' fine with me.. and really, shouldn't be an issue... Brand Nubian sampled Edie Brickell's "what i am" which dropped a year and a half before.. Same with the 45 King and Em's "Stan".. both seen today as arguably their best songs..






< Live Mixshow - Thurs 11PM/EST >
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Hitokiri
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4. "You're making two entirely different claims. CHANGE or RUIN?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

You're using the terms interchangeably in your post. They are not the same thing.
But... this is just a plug for your podcast so it probably doesn't matter.

--

"You can't beat white people. You can only knock them out."

  

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Kil
Member since Oct 06th 2005
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Mon May-15-17 10:09 AM

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7. "RE: You're making two entirely different claims. CHANGE or RUIN?"
In response to Reply # 4


  

          

The point would be what do cats think about how sampling laws affected hip hop and of course no one else 'round these part don't do any pluggin' of what they do right...or is it just me lol?

The Corner Radio Podcast Hosted by Kil
@Kil889
www.willmakebeatsforfood.com
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SP1200
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8. "I don't think that was the real turning point."
In response to Reply # 0
Mon May-15-17 10:28 AM by SP1200

  

          

The real turning point was in the late 90's when a court ruled that
ANY amount of sampling (no matter how short) was copyright
infringement if not cleared. I remember the climate at that time,
cats seemed discouraged from sampling. Chopping in a lot of ways was
a reaction to the earlier laws to get around things, but the new
ruling at the time killed that too.

http://i54.tinypic.com/2j51hj4.jpg

  

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Kil
Member since Oct 06th 2005
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Mon May-15-17 10:32 AM

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9. "RE: I don't think that was the real turning point."
In response to Reply # 8


  

          

But the crazy thing with chopping with me is the bulk of our favorite hip hop songs post 90 are all loops. Even those crazy Primo/Dilla chops diggin cats for the most part know where it's from. I mean...if we look at the bulk of our top 10 fave hip hop songs they're all loops! So I get the laws messing up cat's money but I don't see it messing up the music THAT much IMO.

The Corner Radio Podcast Hosted by Kil
@Kil889
www.willmakebeatsforfood.com
www.soundcloud.com/kil889

  

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SP1200
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15. "I feel ya lol."
In response to Reply # 9


  

          

http://i54.tinypic.com/2j51hj4.jpg

  

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double 0
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13. "RE: I don't think that was the real turning point."
In response to Reply # 8


          

>The real turning point was in the late 90's when a court
>ruled that
>ANY amount of sampling (no matter how short) was copyright
>infringement if not cleared. I remember the climate at that
>time,
>cats seemed discouraged from sampling. Chopping in a lot of
>ways was
>a reaction to the earlier laws to get around things, but the
>new
>ruling at the time killed that too.

What ruling are you talking about? Chopping was ALWAYS copyright infringement. That 2 second chop idea was always a lie.

Double 0
DJ/Producer/Artist
Producer in Kidz In The Hall
-------------------------------------------
twitter: @godouble0
IG: @godouble0
www.thinklikearapper.com

  

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SP1200
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16. "RE: I don't think that was the real turning point."
In response to Reply # 13
Mon May-15-17 08:11 PM by SP1200

  

          

I'll have to find it, I was in school studying copyright law at the
time. It wasn't a chopping ruling, it was a ruling that made clearer
how much use needed clearance. It was ruled ANY amount of time. But
not only that, it gave no clear parameters for prices either. So
publishers got real greedy after that. It was in a random place like
the midwest where that ruling went down.

http://i54.tinypic.com/2j51hj4.jpg

  

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double 0
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17. "RE: I don't think that was the real turning point."
In response to Reply # 16


          

Yea I dunno the wiki on history of sampling has pretty much all the major and minor cases and nothing that would be considered a turning point case happens in the 90s..

I just dont think sample clearance laws led to the keyboard beat era... I think that when given the option of not having pay master clearances and making more money from publishing... people obviously chose money

Double 0
DJ/Producer/Artist
Producer in Kidz In The Hall
-------------------------------------------
twitter: @godouble0
IG: @godouble0
www.thinklikearapper.com

  

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SP1200
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Tue May-16-17 02:56 AM

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18. "Definitely money motivated..."
In response to Reply # 17


  

          

And publishers/copyright owners charging more around this time as
hiphop was making more money, and also not being as able to pull a
fast one anymore and sample without clearance without getting caught.
I think those contributed as well, and are too money related.

>Yea I dunno the wiki on history of sampling has pretty much
>all the major and minor cases and nothing that would be
>considered a turning point case happens in the 90s..
>
>I just dont think sample clearance laws led to the keyboard
>beat era... I think that when given the option of not having
>pay master clearances and making more money from publishing...
>people obviously chose money

http://i54.tinypic.com/2j51hj4.jpg

  

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double 0
Member since Nov 17th 2004
7006 posts
Tue May-16-17 02:46 PM

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21. "RE: Definitely money motivated..."
In response to Reply # 18


          

agreed...

Double 0
DJ/Producer/Artist
Producer in Kidz In The Hall
-------------------------------------------
twitter: @godouble0
IG: @godouble0
www.thinklikearapper.com

  

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Raytard
Member since Jun 06th 2005
1043 posts
Mon May-15-17 06:11 PM

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14. "They didn't change Hip Hop. They changed the business of Hip Hop"
In response to Reply # 0


          

Hip Hop has always had an illegal streak to it. Spraying paint in those train yards, using someones records, straight up breaking the law. I think sampling changed the business of Hip Hop, but there are so many artists who assumed (and were right) they would sell just enough to pay the rent but just under billboard charting numbers that the business didn't really have an impact.

It costs a lot of money to call the lawyers, have them file papers, and go through the process. There's not a lot of reason to do that if your record barely made enough money to pay for going after you in the first place. In the 90s it was probably more common because there were fewer artists to track. Today there are just too many people breaking copyright and too little payoff (10ths of a penny per stream) to catch everybody.

That's why I'm interested in seeing how a company like Tracklib goes about dealing with clearances. It seems like they have a good idea.



https://soundcloud.com/RaydarEllis
http://www.mixcloud.com/DJRaydarEllis

http://revive-music.com/
www.jdillafoundation.org
www.twitter.com/Raydarellis

"Never go full Raytard."-Anfernee

  

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Gori
Member since Jul 26th 2005
15 posts
Wed May-17-17 02:36 AM

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24. "RE: They didn't change Hip Hop. They changed the business of Hip Hop"
In response to Reply # 14


          

>That's why I'm interested in seeing how a company like
>Tracklib goes about dealing with clearances. It seems like
>they have a good idea.

It wasn't easy, I can tell you that. What I'm doing (building the actual product) seems simple compared to the licensing negotiations that has been going on for five years now.

A really simplified version of our elevator pitch to rights-holders, however is this:

Right now noone is listening to more than 90% of the music on Spotify, yet they expect it to be there. Right now, you have this music digitized, but you're not making any money on this catalogue. At the same time a lot of producers and musicians all over the world simply cannot clear samples - it takes lawyers and people just end up not doing it.

By making it possible for these musicians to clear samples from the music you're not making any money on anyway - we give you a new revenue stream.

  

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cbk
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Tue May-16-17 11:03 AM

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19. "Three things come to mind"
In response to Reply # 0


          

Swizz's emergence

Nepturnes early run

Primo's stabs (moment of truth era)


I always had it in my mind that those things were direct responses to sample laws. But I'm not so sure in hindsight.

And yeah, then you have Blueprint, Ye, and Blaze just a couple years later, swinging it back to samples on the radio.

And the entire backpacker movement going on during that time.

AND the fact that RZA, Dre, Organized Noize, Kast, and later El-P, etc were making keyboard/non-sampled beats during that time, which shaped the future.

So, overall I think the changes/evolution in production were inevitable. Sample laws probably influenced some of it, but not to the degree I had thought.




Happy 50th D’Angelo: https://chrisp.bandcamp.com/track/d-50

  

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double 0
Member since Nov 17th 2004
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Tue May-16-17 02:51 PM

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22. "RE: Three things come to mind"
In response to Reply # 19


          

Yea...

reality is we never LOST sampling even during the height of the keyboard beats era...

I mean Ruff Ryders Anthem & Hard Knock Life happen in the same year...

Timbo pulled a fast one though since most didnt know he was sampling the whole time during that era...

Double 0
DJ/Producer/Artist
Producer in Kidz In The Hall
-------------------------------------------
twitter: @godouble0
IG: @godouble0
www.thinklikearapper.com

  

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SP1200
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Tue May-16-17 08:58 PM

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23. "The power of the ASR-10, most underrated machine in hiphop history"
In response to Reply # 22
Tue May-16-17 09:01 PM by SP1200

  

          

That 5 volume Timbo sample tape blew everyones mind!

He used its manipulation capabilities to the fullest.

>Yea...
>
>reality is we never LOST sampling even during the height of
>the keyboard beats era...
>
>I mean Ruff Ryders Anthem & Hard Knock Life happen in the same
>year...
>
>Timbo pulled a fast one though since most didnt know he was
>sampling the whole time during that era...

http://i54.tinypic.com/2j51hj4.jpg

  

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Small Pro
Member since Apr 06th 2006
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25. "all hail czar "
In response to Reply # 23


  

          

>That 5 volume Timbo sample tape blew everyones mind!
>
>He used its manipulation capabilities to the fullest.

--------------------------------------
https://smallprofessor.bandcamp.com

  

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double 0
Member since Nov 17th 2004
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31. "RE: all hail czar "
In response to Reply # 25
Wed May-17-17 08:45 PM by double 0

          

I was both parts disappointed and intrigued...

ASR is a beast...

RZA and Timbo are more alike then ppl would have u believe

Double 0
DJ/Producer/Artist
Producer in Kidz In The Hall
-------------------------------------------
twitter: @godouble0
IG: @godouble0
www.thinklikearapper.com

  

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cal.25
Member since Nov 10th 2014
188 posts
Wed May-17-17 11:21 AM

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26. "Where can I get a copy of this sample tape?!"
In response to Reply # 23


  

          

  

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SP1200
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27. "Now? I have no idea."
In response to Reply # 26


  

          

They were floating around music nerd messageboards like 10+ years ago.

http://i54.tinypic.com/2j51hj4.jpg

  

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double 0
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29. "RE: Where can I get a copy of this sample tape?!"
In response to Reply # 26


          

https://soundcloud.com/czar_e

Double 0
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Producer in Kidz In The Hall
-------------------------------------------
twitter: @godouble0
IG: @godouble0
www.thinklikearapper.com

  

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double negative
Member since Dec 14th 2007
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Thu May-18-17 03:04 PM

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34. "this is good. thanks"
In response to Reply # 29


  

          

***********************************************************
https://soundcloud.com/swageyph/yph-die-with-me

  

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bearfield
Member since Mar 10th 2005
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Wed May-17-17 03:38 PM

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28. "sampling laws definitely have an effect on younger producers"
In response to Reply # 0
Wed May-17-17 03:41 PM by bearfield

  

          

in the RBMA talk with zaytoven, metro boomin, and sonny digital, the host asks them about sampling and they're pretty adamant about abstaining from it because it cuts into their check either now or later, and it's generally not worth the hassle

so what they do is get samples replayed or re-created (see: "bad and boujee") or they hit up sample libraries, old and new. there is a guy called frank dukes, whose name you may have seen in production credits on drake and future albums. he creates music that is designed to be sampled: https://www.kingswaymusiclibrary.com/. the producers grab stems and build songs from them

  

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double 0
Member since Nov 17th 2004
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Wed May-17-17 08:28 PM

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30. "RE: sampling laws definitely have an effect on younger producers"
In response to Reply # 28


          

What sample is Bad & Boujee?

Double 0
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Producer in Kidz In The Hall
-------------------------------------------
twitter: @godouble0
IG: @godouble0
www.thinklikearapper.com

  

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bearfield
Member since Mar 10th 2005
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Wed May-17-17 10:32 PM

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32. "no idea. it was interpolated by g koop"
In response to Reply # 30
Wed May-17-17 10:34 PM by bearfield

  

          

http://djbooth.net/news/entry/2017-01-23-g-koop-interview

"...G Koop, an Oakland producer who specializes in replays of songs. G Koop works quickly, able to send you a new version of the song that's almost identical to the original, but is protected due to it being a studio-created interpolation."

  

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double 0
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36. "RE: no idea. it was interpolated by g koop"
In response to Reply # 32
Fri May-19-17 09:47 AM by double 0

          

Yea doesnt look like a sample interpolation... from article

"A few years ago, I started to do stuff in this lane where I’m in the studio just creating ideas and melodies. I had this super strong network of heavyweight producers that are making all the heavyweight songs and getting all the big placements in the game that fuck with me. I would send them stuff, they’d sample it, and it would be in the record. We would share the credits, share the production, all that. The sample pack for 'Bad and Boujee' was one that I did in January of this past year. I sent it to Metro Boomin and from that sample pack we did 'Bad & Boujee,' and also 21 Savage’s 'Ocean Drive' from the 'Savage Mode' album. My elements to those songs were made in the same week"

So one of his sample pack melodies was basis of the song

Double 0
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Producer in Kidz In The Hall
-------------------------------------------
twitter: @godouble0
IG: @godouble0
www.thinklikearapper.com

  

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Hiphopsince1974
Member since Feb 05th 2011
143 posts
Sun May-21-17 01:09 AM

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38. "RE: no idea. it was interpolated by g koop"
In response to Reply # 32


          

Nice article...

  

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kayru99
Member since Jan 26th 2004
16105 posts
Thu May-18-17 12:53 PM

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33. "yeah, it did"
In response to Reply # 0


          

it definitely affected the quality of music coming outta NYC, until maybe the blueprint?

Thankfully the rise/improvement of DAWs/VSTi tech came about, cuz otherwise the music would have gotten really wack

  

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fatboybrandon
Member since May 15th 2010
180 posts
Fri May-19-17 02:18 PM

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37. "Sampling songs that just came out, fine by me"
In response to Reply # 0
Fri May-19-17 02:19 PM by fatboybrandon

  

          

I look forward to people who are open to breaking the rules and innovating production rather than staying in whatever box people are trying to hold Hip Hop in for themselves. Most the pioneering DJs of Hip Hop were sampling breaks that just came out back in the culture's infancy but not sampling in the studio, sampling on two turntables.

I think the sampling laws have made people more creative overall, at least the type of producers I listen to who've found ways around it all to come up with heat on the boards.

___________________
cratesofjr.blogspot.com. If you think you'll get out alive, you're dreaming.

  

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Nick Has a Problem...Seriously
Member since Dec 25th 2010
16580 posts
Sun May-21-17 07:25 AM

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39. "RE: Sampling songs that just came out, fine by me"
In response to Reply # 37


  

          

>I think the sampling laws have made people more creative
>overall, at least the type of producers I listen to who've
>found ways around it all to come up with heat on the boards.
>
Explain this and put me onto these producers

******************************************
Falcons, Braves, Bulldogs and Hawks

Geto Boys, Poison Clan, UGK, Eightball & MJG, OutKast, Goodie Mob

  

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fatboybrandon
Member since May 15th 2010
180 posts
Sun May-21-17 08:31 AM

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40. "Sample interpolations, more creative chopping, original arrangements"
In response to Reply # 39
Sun May-21-17 08:32 AM by fatboybrandon

  

          

People who have replayed samples like K-Def, RZA, Dr. Dre, Pete Rock, Dilla. K-Def has been on a roll doing in using DAWs and plug-ins lately.

DJ Premier, Tall Black Guy, Astrological, Pete Rock, Jake One, Alchemist, S1, Havoc, !llmind, Nottz, Dilla, Oh No and others have been entertaining in their chopping over the years to take the art to another level. I remember when The Beatnuts went berserk in chopping up Johnny Guitar Watson for Madskillz.

I like the producers who are blending sampling with live instrumentation or just creating a whole new arrangement from scratch: Dre, DJ Khalil, S1, !llmind, RZA, Antman Wonder, Tall Black Guy, Eric Lau, Tone Jonez, Just Blaze, D.I.T.C., Adrian Younge

___________________
cratesofjr.blogspot.com. If you think you'll get out alive, you're dreaming.

  

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imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
42239 posts
Sun May-21-17 07:38 PM

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41. "You're using the wrong case. "
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Biz made the labels start paying.
It was the Bridgeport case that dreaded everything.

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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double 0
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42. "RE: You're using the wrong case. "
In response to Reply # 41


          

This one?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bridgeport_Music,_Inc._v._Dimension_Films

Imo anything birdgeport related is only an "issue" if you sample their catalog...

Double 0
DJ/Producer/Artist
Producer in Kidz In The Hall
-------------------------------------------
twitter: @godouble0
IG: @godouble0
www.thinklikearapper.com

  

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imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
42239 posts
Tue May-23-17 11:44 AM

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44. "That case established the minimum time to qualify as infringement "
In response to Reply # 42


  

          


█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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double 0
Member since Nov 17th 2004
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46. "RE: That case established the minimum time to qualify as infringement "
In response to Reply # 44


          

I have never heard any producer ever talk about this case or the fact that they cant sample/chop cuz of it...

The ONLY thing imo bridgeport has done is ruin drum breaks... outside of that most people have been working as usual.

Double 0
DJ/Producer/Artist
Producer in Kidz In The Hall
-------------------------------------------
twitter: @godouble0
IG: @godouble0
www.thinklikearapper.com

  

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imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
42239 posts
Wed May-24-17 07:58 PM

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48. "that's cool"
In response to Reply # 46


  

          

but you realize the reason for the push back was from the labels and the lawyers right. and for them the line in the sand was drawn that made sampling no longer worth it if you had to pay a grip for something that was barely a second.

to get even more specific the ruling in that case actually left a grey area which favored the rights holders, but the judges always left open for future interpretation going so far as to say that a 'bright line' needed to be drawn but they weren't doing it. subsequently no one on either side wanted to take it to courts because it might force the hand to draw that bright line. samplers didn't have the long cash to really pursue it, and sample rights holders liked it grey while working in their favor.

i spent years working on this talking with lawyers, and academics about how to get clarity but fundamentally it'll probably never happen.

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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double 0
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49. "RE: that's cool"
In response to Reply # 48


          

Guess the question is can you name any producer that stopped sampling due to this case?

If you are at a major label you just pay to get it cleared or interpolated and if you are indie.. you just do whatever until you get a cease & desist

Double 0
DJ/Producer/Artist
Producer in Kidz In The Hall
-------------------------------------------
twitter: @godouble0
IG: @godouble0
www.thinklikearapper.com

  

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imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
42239 posts
Thu May-25-17 08:12 AM

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51. "K"
In response to Reply # 49


  

          


█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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Anonymous
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Wed May-24-17 09:42 PM

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50. "A question that I always had was"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Do these underground artists just not clear samples?

It seems like sampling never really let up for the underground and I can't remember when but it seemed like at some point they just stopped giving credit altogether.

Do labels and artists just not go after them because they don't sell a lot of records?

  

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double 0
Member since Nov 17th 2004
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Thu May-25-17 11:40 AM

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52. "RE: A question that I always had was"
In response to Reply # 50


          

I know a lot of cats just operate under the radar.... it means you cant license records for commercials/movies etc... but many didn't care (or redo the records for those instances)..

most of the time you are fine... random things certainly happen though..

I have never been sued for a successful single "kidz in the hall" had but I have been sued for a record that Just Blaze played on Sirius that was then recorded off that and white labeled in Europe.. We never even sold the record or officially released but the white label got us..

Double 0
DJ/Producer/Artist
Producer in Kidz In The Hall
-------------------------------------------
twitter: @godouble0
IG: @godouble0
www.thinklikearapper.com

  

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Austin
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Thu May-25-17 01:49 PM

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53. "RE: That's out of hand:"
In response to Reply # 52


  

          

>
>I have never been sued for a successful single "kidz in the
>hall" had but I have been sued for a record that Just Blaze
>played on Sirius that was then recorded off that and white
>labeled in Europe.. We never even sold the record or
>officially released but the white label got us..
>

And, to the initial question: yes, they just operate under the assumption that most folks won't bother with them because they're not doing big numbers.


os·ti·na·to
/ˌästəˈnädō/
noun
a continually repeated musical phrase or rhythm

http://austinato.bandcamp.com

https://www.discogs.com/lists/Favorites-of-2017/332378

  

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Key
Member since Aug 07th 2002
2715 posts
Sat May-27-17 01:11 AM

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54. "The People vs Biz Markie and J-Lo vs The Beatnuts"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

The most important trials of our time. YES they fucked up ALL music so we can't even quote a person anymore without some lawyer smelling money that is more important than our art.

I think one song in my album Jimi Hendrix, Coltrane and Zappa can fight over the rights to my songs because they all own it 100% even though they are all dead and can't even spend the money.

Yes you think that it is Copywrite, right? No it was meant for bootleggers and it is the Right to Copy things in it's entirety that copryright was made for. Not people using building blocks to make new better art.

If i had a kid now i would tell him having any style at all is illegal according to Marvin Gaye vs Pharell.


http://keymusic.bandcamp.com/album/apophenia

https://keymusic.bandcamp.com/

  

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Austin
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55. "RE: https://imgflip.com/s/meme/Captain-Picard-Facepalm.jpg"
In response to Reply # 54


  

          

>Copywrite
>

os·ti·na·to
/ˌästəˈnädō/
noun
a continually repeated musical phrase or rhythm

http://austinato.bandcamp.com

https://www.discogs.com/lists/Favorites-of-2017/332378

  

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double 0
Member since Nov 17th 2004
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56. "RE: The People vs Biz Markie and J-Lo vs The Beatnuts"
In response to Reply # 54


          

Nothing has moved the needle more than the marvin gaye v robin thicke case..

That shit has made it so that you can literally sue for anything that kinda might sound like something and get heard.

Double 0
DJ/Producer/Artist
Producer in Kidz In The Hall
-------------------------------------------
twitter: @godouble0
IG: @godouble0
www.thinklikearapper.com

  

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c71
Member since Jan 15th 2008
13955 posts
Thu Jun-01-17 01:48 PM

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61. "Drake just won a sampling case with "fair use" argument, so"
In response to Reply # 0
Thu Jun-01-17 01:49 PM by c71

  

          

don't know what that means for the future...

but...

lot's of OKP people have been claiming how much damage the "Blurred lines" verdict does/is doing, so.....make some claims about what this verdict will/can do now.

Or will both verdicts just coexist in the international legal stew that I remember going back to MJ being sued for "will you be there?" and George Harrison for "my sweet Lord", etc.?


http://www.spin.com/2017/06/drake-lawsuit-pound-cake-paris-morton-music/

Drake Beats Lawsuit Over Sampling With Winning “Fair Use” Argument
Eriq Gardner, The Hollywood Reporter // June 1, 2017

Drake, along with various associated record labels and music publishers, pulled off an impressive achievement on Tuesday by convincing a judge that his song “Pound Cake/Paris Morton Music 2,” off the 2013 album Nothing Was the Same, fairly sampled a 1982 spoken-word recording, “Jimmy Smith Rap,” and that there is no liability for copyright infringement.

What makes Drake’s summary judgment victory against the Estate of James Oscar Smith particularly noteworthy is that rulings of copyright “fair use” are rare in the realm of songcraft. When it comes to documentaries and less abstract art forms, judges can parse meaning and figure out whether use of copyrighted material is transformative. But in disputes over song sampling, parties have long tended to wage fights over other issues like ownership records and whether the copying is sufficiently substantial. This “Pound Cake” case had those elements as well, but this one is now ending at the trial court because U.S. District Court judge William H. Pauley III has taken the unusual step of addressing Drake’s purpose in sampling.

According to the facts laid out in Pauley’s opinion, Cash Money hired a music license company to obtain all necessary licenses. The defendants obtained a license for the recording of “Jimmy Smith Rap,” but clearing the composition became problematic. The Estate maintained it would not have granted a license for the composition because Jimmy Smith, a jazz musician, “wasn’t a fan of hip hop.”

Indeed, Smith’s 1982 recording, which spoke of A&R men and going into the studio, is evidence of such bias.

“Jazz is the only real music that’s gonna last,” states the lyrics. “All that other bullshit is here today and gone tomorrow. But jazz was, is and always will be.”

On Drake’s song, he cuts it down.

“Only real music’s gonna last,” states the sampled portion in Drake’s track. “All that other bullshit is here today and gone tomorrow.”

Judge Pauley writes that there can be no reasonable dispute that the key phrase in Smith’s song “is an unequivocal statement on the primacy of jazz over all other forms of popular music,” and that Drake’s use, by contrast, “transforms Jimmy Smith’s brazen dismissal of all non-jazz music into a statement that ‘real music,’ with no qualifiers, is ‘the only thing that’s gonna last.'”

Thus, the judge adds, the purpose is “sharply different” from the original artist’s.

“This is precisely the type of use that ‘adds something new, with a further purpose or different character, altering the first (work) with new expression, meaning or message,” writes the judge.

The plaintiffs attempted to contend that Drake’s fans and most other listeners wouldn’t be able to identify Jimmy Smith nor recognize that “Pound Cake” is commenting on an obscure track by a relatively unknown jazz musician.

Judge Pauley responds that while it’s true that in cases of parody, an average observer needs to identify the target of derision, it’s not a universal prerequisite for finding a transformative use. He gives an example before commenting that Drake used Smith’s work as “raw material” for his creative objective. The judge also comments that use of “Jimmy Smith Rap” is transformative regardless of whether the average listener would identify the source and comprehend Drake’s purpose.

“The critical question is ‘how the work in question appears to the reasonable observer,’ not the quality or accessibility of the commentary,” Pauley writes.

The judge then measures other factors beyond purpose and character informing a decision on fair use. What commands attention here is the discussion of the amount and substantiality of the portion used.

The Estate argued that if the staying power of “real” music was the message, then Drake should have only used that line. Instead, he used 35 seconds of the “Jimmy Smith Rap,” including the lines, “We had champagne in the studio, of course, you know, compliments of the company, and we just laid back and did it. So we hope you enjoy listening to this album half as much as we enjoyed playing it for you. Because we had a ball.”

Pauley rejects this argument, finding the amount taken was “reasonable.”

“Far from being extraneous to ‘Pound Cake’s’ statement on the importance of ‘real’ music, Defendants’ use of the lines describing the recording of Off the Top serve to drive the point home,” the judge writes. “The full extent of the commentary is, in this Court’s view, that many musicians make records in similar ways (e.g. with the help of A&R experts or the stimulating effects of champagne), but that only ‘real’ music — regardless of creative process or genre — will stand the test of time.”

The defendants were represented by Cynthia Arato at Shapiro Arato and Christine Lepera at Mitchell Silberberg & Knupp. Here’s the full opinion, which may get appellate review on whether it also deserves to stand the test of time.

  

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double 0
Member since Nov 17th 2004
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Fri Jun-02-17 03:16 PM

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62. "RE: Drake just won a sampling case with "fair use" argument, so"
In response to Reply # 61


          

They coexist...

The Blurred Lines issue is not a sampling issue its a soundalike (sounds too close) precedent... it's how the Chainsmokers have to retroactively give publishing to The Fray for Closer and Ed Sheeran has to pay publishing to TLC..

Double 0
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