kinetic94761180 got me thinking about this. Imho, Black Thought has a verse that starts out pedestrian, but then becomes dope (I Don't Know), but him and Andre 3000 have no wack/completely pedestrian verses that i can think of or have ever heard. Are there any other emcees with at least 10 year careers with no wack verses or verses that never hit dope level in your opinion? what about BT or Andre? Any of their verses that you think fit that idea?

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Edit: oh but you said 10 years haha

phemom's the name, all-star writer/
searching 4 journalistic fame, mindframe igniter....www.twitter.com/hayabusaage

----------------------------------------

"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

''i went from bashful to asshole to international''- CdoubleO

Carrying half an album for a decade is a completely different animal than carrying an entire album for a decade. Not to discredit 3K, he's one of the dopest ever, but half of that probably comes from not having to carry a full course load.

________________________________
There are dozens of us! Dozens!

I believe Lauryn Hill has about 11 verses on Miseducation and many people don't even count that as a hip-hop album.

Obviously Big Boi and guests rhyme as well so Aquemini has much more rapping than Miseducation so I'm not comparing those albums in that sense but it is interesting that Andre is consistently listed as a top 5 or 10 MC with people ignoring his workload per album being extremely low.

And he's one of my favorite MCs of all-time but I agree with what you're saying.

He has fewer and fewer verses with each release.

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Falcons, Braves, Bulldogs and Hawks

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I'm guessing Thought has many more than Andre

The roots have double the albums of kast so yeah. Just seems like people want to discredit stacks imo

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Geto Boys, Poison Clan, UGK, Eightball & MJG, OutKast, Goodie Mob

I used to hold It Was Written, Illadelph, and Aqumini up as three of the best MCing performances over the entire course of an album for Nas, Thought and Andre.

But when you look at it honestly, Nas killed over 30 verses on It Was Written and Thought over 20 verses on Illadelph.

When you compare that to Andre's 11 on Aquemini, you have to weigh that at some point because it's an entire different task.

And that's why I have really had an issue with recent Roots albums because I want Thought to be the focal point and he hasn't been.

Aquemini wasn't the typical rap album either. You got 14 actual songs. 2 were Soul/Spoken word hybrids and one track he didn't rhyme on at all. ATLiens would be the better comparison and Dre showed his ass on that album too

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I can't rock with the Aquemini plea cop. Even if I give him two extra verses for Spottie and Liberation, he is still at 13.

And ATLiens is my favorite album just like you and Andre did kill that joint as well, but he is still under 20 verses for the whole album.

Again, I'm not discrediting him or taking away from how ill be is because he's in my top 3. But the reason he is 3 is because he has done less work than the others.

That doesn't mean he isn't as nice but he just hasn't proved himself for as many verses as the other two in my opinion.

It's the same reason people say Big isn't the GOAT based on only having two albums.

Black Thought isn't on the same level as Nas either. Nas is the GOAT. I say that anytime we post about top 10 rappers. Top 10 slots are reserved for those that hold down entire LPs solo. Andre nor BT has done that. I'll get more in depth when I get home. Too much to type using my phone.

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Falcons, Braves, Bulldogs and Hawks

Geto Boys, Poison Clan, UGK, Eightball & MJG, OutKast, Goodie Mob

>Nas is the GOAT. I say that anytime we post about top 10 rappers.

and everytime you do, i remind you that he made "you owe me" (which sounded like a buy here pay here used car commercial), and that his bodyguard's oochie wally verse was better than his.

>Top 10 slots are reserved for those that hold down entire LPs
>solo. Andre nor BT has done that. I'll get more in depth when
>I get home. Too much to type using my phone.

1. opinions are like assholes....

(so, for clarity, you're saying a non-exclusively solo act could never be considered among the greats?)

2. the post concerns wack verses.

(i named a few of nas's, name ONE of bt's)

you could never lace a nas verse post like we did black thought.

on phone or computer.

there's not enough proof.

_____________
if racism is a cancer, black thought is the answer.

Rjcc is code for "bitch-ass troll"

DROkayplayer™

http://howardlloyd.bandcamp.com

_____________
if racism is a cancer, black thought is the answer.

Rjcc is code for "bitch-ass troll"

DROkayplayer™

That I can answer on the phone

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Geto Boys, Poison Clan, UGK, Eightball & MJG, OutKast, Goodie Mob

you answered nothing.

_____________
if racism is a cancer, black thought is the answer.

Rjcc is code for "bitch-ass troll"

DROkayplayer™

niggas know ain’t nobody fuckin’ w/ tariq

if your argument is that nas has a better catalog of studio albums? make it. but, miss me w/ this “other level” shit. it’s laughable.

bt been on stage and stood toe-to-toe w/ damn near every single mc you could think of to compare w/ either one of them, and has never been got. if you were to say that that’s his specific realm, then i’d agn ask you what are we discussing. he’s been on record w/ more than a few mc’s too, and has never been got (except by maybe dice raw, but we'll cancel that out w/ horse's).

i’ve heard countless mc’s give him these props. the fact that he’s not on everybody’s generic bigpacnasjayem top 5 means nothing. in fact, it adds to the allure. i said one day men’ll understand, and slowly but surely they fucking are. & pls don’t take this to mean that i’m discrediting anyone of those. they can all be legendary. but, many get left out for random silly reasons (not as popular, didn’t “sell” as much, etc.). AND for the record, a lot of these modern discussions omit the greats that nas and black thought would name. your rakim’s, g-rap’s, krs’s, bdk’s, etc.

bt rocked nas beat better than him. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZNyECJjDkc

my honest intentions were to get a new nas memorable lines post.

your mans had some forgettables.

nigga said he was jesse jackson on the balcony where king got killed. he a snitch.

black thought has NEVER come wack is the point.

_____________
if racism is a cancer, black thought is the answer.

Rjcc is code for "bitch-ass troll"

DROkayplayer™

It's not up for debate at this point.

type out why

_____________
if racism is a cancer, black thought is the answer.

Rjcc is code for "bitch-ass troll"

DROkayplayer™

Black Thought ain't one of them though. Let us know when he drops that solo LP

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Anyone who quotes Jay on Takeover when trying to discredit Nas isn't someone I trust as having an honest discussion on the topic.

you shouldn't be.

_____________
if racism is a cancer, black thought is the answer.

Rjcc is code for "bitch-ass troll"

DROkayplayer™

i'm just posting, dude.

defend oochie wally & you owe me or stfu.

_____________
if racism is a cancer, black thought is the answer.

Rjcc is code for "bitch-ass troll"

DROkayplayer™

Just know you're cherry-picking is on Fox News level right now.

naw, you just forgot what post you were in.

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if racism is a cancer, black thought is the answer.

Rjcc is code for "bitch-ass troll"

DROkayplayer™

i disagree that BT isn't on his level lyrically. I just think that Nas has achieved more by releasing solo albums. i think Nas started off far more lyrical. There's no question that after 2 albums, Nas was on another level, but since then, i'd say they are both on the same level lyrically.

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His subject matter.

He covers far more and takes a lot more of an interesting approach in his songwriting.

There are just certain Nas songs that Thought would never have done. Even recent Nas songs like Stay, Thought just would never approach writing a song in that way.

and I believe Thought could achieve that because like you said, lyrically they are on a very similar level, but it's just not what he does.

.

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And I know the topic is verses- and of course it is all subjective.

But Nas has a lot of bad songs and a turrible album.

I have my issues with the last 3-4 "Roots" albums ,but you can't say either about Thought.


I know Thought isn't a solo artists and all of that, but just judging off what has been released....Nas has a lot more lows.

Thought doesn't have the output that Nas has either. I want to see him make an album without Quest.

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But as far as comparing catalogs you can only compare what is actually there.

You could also argue it the other way. Anonymous makes a great point about subject matter, but is Thought's (comparatively speaking) lack of variety due to him or the fact that he has been a member of a group?

Just seems like if you are going to say "well, he may not have the clunkers Nas has because he's been with the Roots" then you could also accept "well, his subject matter isn't as varied because he's been on the Roots"

Actually, an interesting topic on the Nas subject would be to compare him against other GOAT contenders (hip hop and/or otherwise) and see how his number of clunkers compare.

(This isn't a Nas hate thing- I'm a big fan and I think his later-career albums are actually under appreciated. That said, he's got some rough songs in that catalog. Most of his albums could use fat trimming)

Either way, I agree that I really want to hear Thought on his own. Mostly because I think folks will begin to realize at that point that on a strictly hop hop tip, Quest would miss Thought A LOT more than Thought would miss Quest. **shrugs**

I'm not one to gloss over Nas' "clunkers" but I also think he gets a double standard.

You Owe Me is looked at as the worst song ever recorded when the fact is, it's a pretty run of the mill bling era single produced by Timbo that pushed the album to 2 mill and was loved by every female that I know. Other MCs like Jay get passes for shit like that and Drake has made a career out of it.

Then when you add in unreleased material, which in Nas' case is pretty well circulated and known along with his guest spots and non-album cuts, he just simply has the longest catalogue of great material even despite those "clunkers".

Look at an act like Bob Dylan or Neil Young...they have tons of shit music but even if half of their catalogue is bad, they still have more great songs than their competitors.

Nas is on that level at this point.

As well as any verse limits to "qualify." Because that's a slippery slope, especially these days.

I'd imagine that most people on this site would say that Raekwon on OB4CL and Ghostface on Ironman were great lyrical performances. However, Rae only spit more than one verse on two tracks on OB4CL; ditto for Starks on Ironman. Shoot, and both had tracks on their own album where they didn't appear at all.

A great performance is a great performance. And great rapper can "carry" albums in different ways and settings.

-----------------

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Checkin' Our Style, Return To Zero:

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I wouldn't look to Rae or Ghost on either of those albums as an all-time great performance.

GZA on Liquid Swords is the Wu's contender for that title and he carried that album more so than Rae and Ghost did theirs.

>I wouldn't look to Rae or Ghost on either of those albums as
>an all-time great performance.

We disagree here.

>GZA on Liquid Swords is the Wu's contender for that title and
>he carried that album more so than Rae and Ghost did theirs.

This is true, and GZA's performance is an all-timer and one of the best ever. But it's also 16 verses on a 13-track album. And he doesn't rap on one of those tracks.

-----------------

www.albumism.com

Checkin' Our Style, Return To Zero:

https://www.mixcloud.com/returntozero/

I would go with Tony Starks on Supreme Clientele.
Gza up there as well.

-----
Cameo
Soundshape Records

or what about Scarface?

I think this would really be about preference, some might say 3000 had a lame verse on The Love Below or Idlewild, idk.

PEACE LOVE and MONEY

https://soundcloud.com/dabeatnik/drumpf-beer

absolutely.

_____________
if racism is a cancer, black thought is the answer.

Rjcc is code for "bitch-ass troll"

DROkayplayer™

>I think this would really be about preference, some might say
>3000 had a lame verse on The Love Below or Idlewild, idk.

Dre had one single verse on TLB and it was and is STUPENDOUS. Idlewild he also had minimal work and it was all great. "Mighty O" for reference.

Anyone who says "A Life in the Day..." is a "wack verse" is someone who shouldn't talk about hip-hop.

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"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

yeah, post 2000 'dying breed face is solid, but that early shit had some filler.

actually, diary and untouchable were alright w/ me.

i hear them coming....

_____________
if racism is a cancer, black thought is the answer.

Rjcc is code for "bitch-ass troll"

DROkayplayer™

I know yall aren't but lyrics are lyrics and whether a fool sang or spit it's going in one of them categories.

I think 3000 is a great choice though and he rapped twice on TLB, that cupid verse counts.

Black Thought might get the boring tag from some, but I don't recall skipping a verse.

PEACE LOVE and MONEY

https://soundcloud.com/dabeatnik/drumpf-beer

>Black Thought might get the boring tag from some, but I don't
>recall skipping a verse.

_____________
if racism is a cancer, black thought is the answer.

Rjcc is code for "bitch-ass troll"

DROkayplayer™

doom?
mediocre verses are his bread and butter

I always think of him as untouchable for some reason, I think I might be a DOOM stan lol

PEACE LOVE and MONEY

https://soundcloud.com/dabeatnik/drumpf-beer

And has countless all-time verses. The majority of the time he's rhyming, he's dope.

But he's dropped a LOT of albums, with a LOT of verses. And while I don't recall ever thinking a DOOM verse was "wack," per se, there are certainly several DOOM verses over the years that underwhelmed me. Hard for there not to be considering how prolific he's been.

----------------------------------------

"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

this might be the one....

_____________
if racism is a cancer, black thought is the answer.

Rjcc is code for "bitch-ass troll"

DROkayplayer™

album is mediocre too

unless its just mediocre in comparison to pun

i know i dont ever wanna listen to his verse on that song

http://howardlloyd.bandcamp.com

it's just not as dope as Pun's

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I've heard some of his random mixtape cuts, and some are pretty ehhhhhh.

Hearing him on "The boss" was the moment I realized he wasn't a good artist, just a great lyricist.

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doesn't matter how long or short the career. everybody's said something stupid and worthless.


what's more important is whether they've ever been BORING for it. Redman is boring now, for example. LL Cool J is boring now. Method Man is boring now while we're on the subject.


The real question IMO is who can kick some simple shit and still come off tuff?


~~~~~~~~~
"This is the streets, and I am the trap." � Jay Bilas
http://www.popmatters.com/pm/archive/contributor/517
Hip Hop Handbook: http://tinyurl.com/ll4kzz

...every now and then, sometimes they spit a corny line on purpose for laughable reasons but still sound dope but even then that's a a weak line, not one rapper I can think of has never spit a weak or corny line/verse they all have 'em.

https://tinyurl.com/y4ba6hog

---------
"We in here talking about later career Prince records
& your fool ass is cruising around in a time machine
trying to collect props for a couple of sociopathic degenerates" - s.blak

>Method Man is boring now while we're on the subject.
>

Im not here to defend all of Method Man's albums or to even say he doesn't have bad verses, but I'll be dammed if he's boring now. Meth has still been killing shit since either Cuban Linx 2 or maybe even 4:21.

don't just say they all got them. that's too easy.

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Yeah yo, yo
Who them dudes smellin like trees when we up in here?
Straight Gilla and Killa Beez when we up in here
Kush nigga, I keep the weed in the tupperware
Fuck security, V.I.P., we can puff in here
Niggas know how we do it (yeah) I ain't buyin the bar (yeah)
I'm tryin to talk her out her drawers, she tryin to charge
I ain't tryin to ball
Don't spend no money in the club, if I said that I was I'd be lyin to y'all
I gotta have it, an addict too and I'm puffin
You'd rather hate us, discuss it, no more discussions
The head of the house is now speakin, the food is ready for eatin
Your head is ready for beatin, I'll kick your teeth in
Don't fuck with Tical - you know a nigga black out off a couple beers
Smoke up an ounce, pass out like a couple years
And mami doin her thing, she in her underwear
You join the team and now win, I'll put you under there


Not about shit, lazy similes to fit the rhymes, this is Wiz Khalifa on an average day type stuff. "I Know Sumptin", Blackout 2. The hook on that song is booty too, btw, but that's Redman's fault.

I'm not saying he's always boring, or always awful. I liked that album for what it was, and I've liked most of his output since 4:21. But it wasn't Blackout and it damn sure wasn't Tical Method Man.

Lil' Wayne's verses on Mrs. Officer, or Wale's opening verse on M.Y.P.Y.T. may well be rarified air of terribleness but everybody's said something pointless or bland just to get from hook to hook at this point. IMO it's just the nature of the genre; your average rap verse has far more content than your average rock verse, so even the best rap lyricists will hit a speed bump far sooner than someone who writes rock, folk, etc. music.

People are bringing up Black Thought's Big Pun verse like that's even relevant considering this verse he had on a Michael Bublé album THIS YEAR.


Hey, we make beautiful music together, how you make my heart sing
Move into the side with us and never be apart thing
Work of art thing, the way you pull me like a harp string
Every moment spent is worth it, that's the perfect part, see
I like whatever you like, we had to do right
And do like, two sovereign nations and try to unite
I'm proud of you, like a treasure, you're the one I'm cherishing
Every other girl is silly, paling in comparison


~~~~~~~~~
"This is the streets, and I am the trap." � Jay Bilas
http://www.popmatters.com/pm/archive/contributor/517
Hip Hop Handbook: http://tinyurl.com/ll4kzz

Like, these guys do verses that have a lot of words in them and attempt to complicate simple ideas at times for the sake of 'lyricism', so sometimes a whack/bland verse for me is when they're just saying things to say it or using words to use them.


If, say, Yo Gotti covered the same sentiment as that Thought song but in his uncluttered, simple way, I might not consider it a whack verse because his style just suits that simple sort of idea more, and it doesn't sound as trivial coming from his mouth because his rapping often takes a backseat to the idea or mood he's trying to evoke.


~~~~~~~~~
"This is the streets, and I am the trap." � Jay Bilas
http://www.popmatters.com/pm/archive/contributor/517
Hip Hop Handbook: http://tinyurl.com/ll4kzz

I'm not mad at BT lol.

get that paper.

-----
Cameo
Soundshape Records

You take a song like Dopeman off his last album and it's just as strong or boring or wack as anything else he has done. He has consistently filled the same lane for whatever it's worth. Personally, this isn't boring to me: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWQ6KBwMzfQ.

this post-drugs Eminem x coast mode Fabolous x name dropping The Game shit is not: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFp2CK0D16k

he's not a fundamentally different artist, but he's slipped, which happens to everyone. you can't listen to Reggie (the 2010 album) after Dare Iz a Darkside and tell me you had an authentically good time.

~~~~~~~~~
"This is the streets, and I am the trap." � Jay Bilas
http://www.popmatters.com/pm/archive/contributor/517
Hip Hop Handbook: http://tinyurl.com/ll4kzz

I just wouldn't apply a binary judgement of an artist. The longer an artist is around, the greater the opportunity for them to make missteps. However, if they have established a strong record of releases and can still rap, I wouldn't be so dismissive as to say that they are boring now. I thought Red and Meth had good showings on Sermon's last record and they can still rap unlike other artists who just lose that ability all together. I agree that they have release weak efforts, and this is particularly painful.

I just meant to make the point that no matter how stellar the rapper, at some point they allowed themselves to be boring, and like you said, it most likely had a cooperative relationship with the amount of product they'd produced in the past.

Of course Redman can still be a lot of fun, but not always. And the OP is asking about ALWAYS.

~~~~~~~~~
"This is the streets, and I am the trap." � Jay Bilas
http://www.popmatters.com/pm/archive/contributor/517
Hip Hop Handbook: http://tinyurl.com/ll4kzz

Allen Iverson prolly likes this joint though.

-----
Cameo
Soundshape Records

doom!!!!!!!

"You don't like climbing trees?......You're missin' out." - Michael Jackson

"But Michael, you're a 44-year-old man now, what do you get out of
this?" - Martin Bashir

"Prince Michael II but we call him Blanket......because it's an expression I use

Boots from The Coup.